Recruiting ex-cultists immediately into anti-cult activism damages them and is unethical
henri
having just left everything that they believed in, and often their
friends and family, are very dependent on the people who "rescued"
them.
While for some people, it may be empowering, the "push" is unethical,
when the people giving the push have a vested interest in recruiting
for their cause, especially when they're exploiting their knowledge of
the mental state of an ex-cultist in order to do it. Just as cults
are unethical in exploiting their own knowledge of people's mental
states in choosing to recruit at colleges, among sick people, at
airports, and other places where people are likely to be in a
transitional state in their lives, cult critics are unethical when
they do it themselves.
If there is anything Scientology critics do which is as repugnant as
what Scientology itself does, it is attempts to recruit people
directly out of the cult as foot soldiers in their crusade. People
should be allowed to be themselves before being unduly influenced by
cult critics.
If I were ever giving advice to someone considering leaving
Scientology, it would be to stay far, far away from the exploitative
snakepit of Scientology criticism. There are too many snakes in this
pit all too willing to poison the minds of ex-cultists, replacing the
dogma of "SPs" with the dogma that "OSA" is responsible for
everything. They are motivated primarily by desire for revenge and an
ends justifies the means mentality predominates with these people.
What is particularly tragic is that just as Scientologists and other
cultists view the cult leader, who has horribly betrayed and abused
them, as the savior of humanity, the ex-cultists mindfucked by cult
critics and turned out as foot soldiers similarly view the very people
who have exploited them as their saviors.
It should be obvious what I'm talking about.
Tom Newton
henri <he...@nowhere.com> wrote:
> People just out of a cult are vulnerable,
Another idiot troll who thinks he's an expert on any subject he's
skimmed a webpage on.
Using the definition of "cult" this jerk is relying on, the
Church of Scientology is no more a cult than any other church,
and a lot less so than some.
It is less of a cult than 'Anonymous' is.
But "cult" is really a meaningless word. Or, rather, it has so many
definitions as to be useless.
What malicious bigots like this troll mean when they use it is:
'A group that I don't like'.
It's the equivalent of calling a Black person a "nigger".
<snip>
Tom
--
Real science: http://www.sethcenter.com/pages/bookstore.htm
If I read your article, I replied to it.
If I didn't reply to it, I didn't read it.
My newsfilter kills about 1/2 the posts to ARS.
AnoNotAmused
> On 2008-08-09, in <52as94pc9i1dejqi0vov6apan24kmma...@4ax.com>
Why is it you so strongly resist the idea that people have been inside
such a damaging association as the cult of Scientology should not be
rushed back out to be soldier for South Korea, having only left the
front lines for the North? Oh, perhaps it's the imminent threat posed
by the cult to the world at large which MUST be cleared at all COSTS
and such people may "hold the key" and therefore their mental health
is as casually expendable by the activist side as the protest eh?
How many times have I heard ex's being hypocrites saying "Don't become
what you despise?" Throwing your peers who just got out back into the
mix, or thinking you as an ex have sufficient skills to help with the
mental anguish without involving professionals is fucking HUBRIS and
both you and MORE the person exiting will pay the price for it.
Anyone who thinks it's a GOOD IDEA to throw a now defecting "spy" back
into East Germany the week after he defected, better EITHER be the
head of the CIA with the IMMEDIATE FATE OF THE WORLD in their bloody
hands, or better not be you folks because then all you'll be doing is
self-justifying harming another person in the name yet again of "The
Greater Good."
For God's sake give people time to get HEALTHY and AWAY!
Smurf
It makes a lot of sense. Thank you. It happens all the time.. cultists
live & operate in a strictly-controlled enviroment and entertain the
idea that the outside world is a better place to be in, then leave the
cult and realize that it is not a bed of roses and certain behaviors
and rules adherent in a cult do not apply outside of the cult, so
rather than try to become acclimated to the outside world, they return
to the way of life they were used to, whether it made them happy or
not.
Rev Dennis L Erlich
>It should be obvious what I'm talking about.
Yes it is, aytch.
Stacy Young was a good example of this and I told her she was headed
for trouble if she didn't decompress from the cult and deal with her
own cult issues before becoming an activist.
Kim Baker was another poster child that should have set her own house
in order before attempting to rescue others.
The same principle applies to other exes that become critics who can't
stick to the facts. You know, the ones who have to make up bullshit
theories and spread their delusory conspiracies to the noobs in order
to feel "effective."
Dennis
---------------
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit
atrocities." Voltaire.
Out_Of_The_Dark
While it may be obvious what you are saying, to me it's not obvious
who you are talking about. Can you give an example of this?
AnoNotAmused
My God I can't believe we agree! But yes, and this in fact is where
much of the drama AND the vulnerability to actual campaigns of Co$
disinformation comes from fundamentally. People who cannot reasonably
assess danger will often see them where none exist, or fail to respond
to REAL danger appropriately.
People, if you have NEVER seen a therapist and don't trust them
because of medication... why not try a clinical social worker or a
psychologist? Both MIGHT suggest meds, but unlike $cientology or your
fears may have taught you CLIENTS ARE AUTONOMOUS except under the MOST
dire of direct danger of harm to self or others which is ALMOST
NEVER!! People have CONTROL over what medications they take and the
absolute right to refuse to take them. Just because someone says "I'd
recommend a psychiatric referral and considering medication," does NOT
mean one has to say YES!
Make it clear to the two types SOCIAL WORKER OR PSYCHIATRIST WHO
LEGALLY CANNOT PRESCRIBE that you're there for THERAPY not DRUGS if
that's the issue. There to learn SKILLS on HOW TO COPE EFFECTIVELY
WITH THE OUTSIDE WORLD!
Social workers are cheaper than psychologists but have 3-5 fewer years
in schooling and no PhD just a Masters most often. ALL are trained in
how to help people develop coping skills. That's ALL they learn in
grad school... THOUSANDS of demonstrated by the numbers WITHOUT DRUGS
effective ways of dealing with "shit that happens when life isn't
going well for you."
"Regular" people learn 10 ways to deal with the stress life throws at
them, 7 of which are effective and 3 of which cause more problems...
when NONE of them are working, where do you turn for ideas? Where do
you go when Mom doesn't have a clue or your problem is too
embarrassing to talk about with her for advice on how to ______? A
therapist.
Sorry to go on and on, but those who cannot distinguish between people
PUSHING PILLS and people who say "THESE ARE YOUR TREATMENT OPTIONS,
THIS IS MY recommendation NOT THE LAW... now go and make your own
choices like an adult living in the outside world where competent
adults are actually allowed their God given right to choose. What to
redeem faith in mental health workers, go see a social worker and
explain up front that you don't believe and won't take psych meds but
you have a real problem and need any other kind of help that doesn't
violate your belief system.
If you get one who does ANYTHING but respect that but asking you to
respect their ONE TIME saying, "if you didn't believe that I wOULD in
fact recommend a psych referral," without it being GAME OVER (that's
your side - you let them do their job and say it once to protect
themselves from malpractice)...
AND IF AT THAT POINT THEY KEEP PUSHING DRUGS ON YOU then ok, get yer
ass up out of the chair and walk out AND FIND ANOTHER SOCIAL WORKER
who knows how to DO HER FUCKING JOB!
Patient Autonomy we call it. I call it "Client Sovereignty" - you are
in essence your own independent nation and I'm the person you asked in
as an outside consultant. I don't know your customs, your laws, I
don't know "nothin" about the independent "country" that is you. You
tell me "psych meds are forbidden in the Land of Me" then I know to
put away that BIG LONG LIST OF VERY HELPFUL THINGS which are good to
have as options BUT OK... AND PULL OUT THE OTHER LISTS OF STUFF THAT'S
BEHAVIORAL / THERAPEUTIC without meds.
Simple, not Evil. Client is ALWAYS the boss, the therapist is just the
guide... called in to lead the confused person back to the path so
they can get out of the forest THEMSELVES.
Sorry for going on so long.
realpch
People are gonna do what they're gonna do. Me, if I'd gotten out of
Scientology, I'd probably want to sit down for a bit. Others might not
react that way. I agree that it is not a good idea to press ex-members
into public criticism of the Church of Scientology. In fact, I'd say it
would be the duty of a concerned person to counsel caution. YMMV
Peach
--
Extra! Extra! Read All About It!
Save some dough, save some grief:
http://www.xenu.net
http://www.scientology-lies.com
Fear Not
This makes sense.
Time for healing first.
Lermanet.com Exposing the CON for over 10 years!
> People just out of a cult are vulnerable, often impressionable, and
> having just left everything that they believed in, and often their
> friends and family, are very dependent on the people who "rescued"
> them.
So they should hang out on alt.religion.scientology chatboard with
sociopaths and learn how to fairgame, and do favors for patricia
greenway?
>
> While for some people, it may be empowering, the "push" is unethical,
> when the people giving the push have a vested interest in recruiting
Bullshit
Those that learn "How their chains were made" get pissed off...
PERIOD, there is no 'recruiting' as Greenway USED Emma, until she
figured out WTF, and used patti pineadz, and still does?
google Emma, Erlich, ESMB
from
http://www.lermanet.com/scientologyhelp/main.html
What is Scientology?
Slave chains forged of lies
are stronger than fine steel
And those enslaved see
neither shackle nor lock.
The mission must be,
in order to set them free:
show them how their
chains were made
and where lies hid the key..
by Arnie Lerma
from
http://www.lermanet.com/cos/8steps.html
8 Steps out of Scientology
This page was cited from an article in the Guardian UK in 1997
Now renamed TEN Steps out of Scientology
IF Scientology is a bridge to OT levels of super dooper powers
why is this website here?
Title: 9 steps out of Scientology
Author: Arnie Lerma
Date: 31 Aug 1997 17:01:27 -0700
REVISED-1
I was in the cult and on staff for 10 years... here are the stages I
have seen... as one exits the 'Hubbardian' mind control program....
1) There is something wrong here, if this is so great, then
why is (______) going on?
[ insert whatever atrocity you have recently witnessed ]
2) The guys at the top must be crazy
3) Miscavige and crew are evil demons from another dimension
[ or something similar ]
4) Hubbard went crazy at the end .....
5) Hubbard went crazy in 1966
6) Hubbard was mad from the start.
7) This whole thing is a complete fraud
8) my god, its a criminal organization... with criminal convictions
all over the world... and it was only about money
9) realization that THERE ARE NO OT's THERE!
10) realizing, after leaving Scientology, this makes one an ex-nazi
and wanting to do something about it
Rev Dennis L Erlich
"Lermanet.com Exposing the CON for over 10 years!"
<ale...@verizon.net> wrote:
> So they should hang out on alt.religion.scientology chatboard with
>sociopaths and learn how to fairgame,
Spreading sliem is what Werma does best. Watch and he can teach you.
>and do favors for patricia
>greenway?
Veep get's things done in the real world. Hence it sets of Werma's
cognitive dissonance. So he has to invent conspiracies to account for
what he doesn't want to be real.
>Those that learn "How their chains were made" get pissed off...
>PERIOD,
Yes, people leaving a cult are very vulnerable to being used. Their
anger can be used as a weapon against Werma's enemies.
>there is no 'recruiting'
He's recruiting people to his delusion every time he posts. To wit:
>as Greenway USED Emma, until she
>figured out WTF, and used patti pineadz, and still does?
Facts = 0
Innuendo = 100%
>google Emma, Erlich, ESMB
<screed snipt>
Google this you fucking lunatic!
<plonk>
-----------------
"Everybody's doin' somethin'
I heard it in a dream
But when there's too much of nothing
It just makes a fella mean." - B Dylan
Lermanet.com Exposing the CON for over 10 years!
> having just left everything that they believed in, and often their
> friends and family, are very dependent on the people who "rescued"
> them.
>
> What is particularly tragic is that just as Scientologists and other
> cultists view the cult leader, who has horribly betrayed and abused
> them, as the savior of humanity, the ex-cultists mindfucked by cult
> critics and turned out as foot soldiers similarly view the very people
> who have exploited them as their saviors.
>
> It should be obvious what I'm talking about.
recruiting excultists into Patricia Greenway's hypnotic campaign to
control the anti-cult movement is far far worse. She tried to take
over the LMT and thrown off the board of directors of the LMT for her
destruction posing as her help and advice. And she uses your chat
board to spread her own hypnotic mind control and depopularizations of
anyone who sees through her techniques and sees through your little
minds.
Lulu Belle
View profile
More options Jan 3, 2:37 pm
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
From: Lulu Belle <exess...@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 11:37:50 -0800 (PST)
Local: Thurs, Jan 3 2008 2:37 pm
Subject: An apology to Arnie Lerma
Reply | Reply to author | Forward | Print | Individual message | Show
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I haven't posted to ARS in almost a year. The last time I posted here
it was last February when I started a thread attacking Arnie Lerma.
The reason I attacked him was because he allowed a nasty post on his
message board that was upsetting and offensive. I won't go into the
details of it here. I attacked him. Sten Arne attacked me and
threatened to out me.
I left and haven't been back since, until now.
I have done a lot of thinking and "soul searching" over the past
year. About my past behavior, and things I have said and done that I
now regret. About allegiances and why we have them. About how
allegiances can sometimes affect our impartiality and prevent us from
seeing, or even seeking, the truth.
About what "cult mentality' REALLY is.
One of the things I've realized is that, when you have certain
allegiances to others, and you will not objectively view and process
information objectively because of those allegiances, that IS "cult
mentality".
Someone who defends someone's actions, regardless of what they are,
because he or she is "on their side", is no more thinking for
themselves than an indoctrinated Scientologist.
That being said:
I have not, in the past, had a high opinion of Arnie. My opinion was
based partially on things I have observed and experienced, and
partially on what others have said to me.
I thought of him as being a loon. The crazy posts about hypnotism and
the like with the mile long sig lines is one reason.
I also thought of him as being someone who lived off of others, such
as Bob Minton. I was told that he got a lot of money from Bob in
exchange for his loyalty. I know he has also solicited donations from
others.
You have to understand, I have an Irish working class background. I
was raised with the idea that welfare is abhorrent. That it was
unethical to take money without working for it. "An honest dollar."
Handouts and "payoffs" of any kind are a button for me.
They just are.
So I guess I was a member of the "Anti-Lerma league". Like I said,
part was what I experienced, and part was information I was fed by
others.
Some things that I've seen Arnie do in recent times, as well as
general realizations about myself, about "allegiances", and how some
of my opinions may have come from manipulation by others, has changed
my viewpoint.
In the thread where Dennis "resigned" from ESMB, Arnie started by
"taking Dennis side" against that board. However, down the line, he
actually read the board, came back to ARS, apologized and said he was
wrong.
That impressed me.
Arnie also "took Dennis' side" in the beginning of the thread, but
when Dennis slammed his friends, Arnie challenged him on it. And told
the truth as he knew it about what had actually occurred.
That impressed me too.
When Arnie wrote about what had actually occurred on those legal
cases, and how pursuing these cases actually set legal precedents for
future cases, it was an eye opener for me. I didn't know. It made me
understand a lot of things about why he did what he did in the past.
It made me understand a lot of things in general. It made me more
understanding about why he solicited donations and what he used them
for.
I also have to say that he has done a lot that I have never given him
credit for. That massive website of his. And many exes have said that
it was him and the info on his site that helped them when they were
getting out.
So, this is a public apology to Arnie. As the last time I was here I
was slamming him, I felt that this was the appropriate place to post
this.
I have misjudged you, and I was wrong.
Now, you're still not perfect, and you are not totally off the
hook. Smile
You still need to stop posting those crazy posts, and you need to do
something about your massive sig lines. Maybe one of your friends
could volunteer to be a copy editor Smile
And you need to get rid of that board of yours. It is primarily a
little select group of posters slamming other people who aren't
members there. If you don't get rid of it, you need to loosen your
membership policies so that everyone can join. Your board isn't all
that different than a backchannel IRC group the way that it is
currently set up.
In my opinion, those kind of places tend to perpetuate the 'gang
mentality" that creates a lot of these "Gang A versus gang B" issues
to begin with. Having people post vicious things about others who
don't post there with your tacit approval undermines your credibility
and makes you no better than the people you dislike.
Can you see this?
There is no way we will ever defeat Scientology unless we rise to a
level where our behavior is better than theirs.
If we engage in "black PR" "rumormongering" and attacking others
simply because they don't agree with us, and attacking others who
don't agree with "our group" whether they are right or wrong, are we
any better than they are?
And isn't this "cult think"?
Anyway, here's to a great New Year for everyone.
And, Happy Birthday, ESMB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Lermanet.com Exposing the CON for over 10 years!
> having just left everything that they believed in, and often their
> friends and family, are very dependent on the people who "rescued"
> them.
>
> It should be obvious what I'm talking about.
And henri,
If they never figure out how hypnosis works, because of your poo-
pooing as kooky the years of research we did at Lermanet.com they will
NEVER recover from the effects of the covert hypnosis in Scientology.
To expose them to the insane rantings of a covert hypnotist, keeps
them operating below their natural potential forever, and uses all the
structures created in their minds from decades in scientology, the
actual wiring changes in the brain from years of not-gthinking and
only duplicating what they are told to think, to keep them ignorant by
demonizing the source of information that ultimately sets them
entirely free...
The real price of showing a person how they were turned into a slave
for someone else's purposes, is that they are very hard to control...
forever,
This is the natural state of a free spirit. To USE those mechansms to
control them instead of exposing the control mechanisms, only serves
the purposes of the mistress hypnotist, who still seeks to total
control via covert means of the anti cult movement.
Henri's favorite webpage on Lermanet.com:
http://www.lermanet.com/exit/hypnosis-index.htm
Rev Dennis L Erlich
>rather than try to become acclimated to the outside world, they return
>to the way of life they were used to, whether it made them happy or
>not.
Lot's of times there's another group of predators ready to use them in
their personal crusade. Minton was such a man.
He sucked too many exes who need recovery into his ridiculous,
confrontational plan simply to inflate his own sense of importance.
Epeen it's called now?
D
------------------
"Here I sit so patiently,
Waiting to find out what price
You have to pay to get out of
Going though all these things twice." - B Dylan
Out_Of_The_Dark
years!" <ale...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On Aug 9, 7:38 pm, henri <he...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
> > People just out of a cult are vulnerable, often impressionable, and
> > having just left everything that they believed in, and often their
> > friends and family, are very dependent on the people who "rescued"
> > them.
>
> So they should hang out on alt.religion.scientology chatboard with
> sociopaths and learn how to fairgame, and do favors for patricia
> greenway?
>
>
>
> > While for some people, it may be empowering, the "push" is unethical,
> > when the people giving the push have a vested interest in recruiting
>
> Bullshit
>
> Those that learn "How their chains were made" get pissed off...
> PERIOD, there is no 'recruiting' as Greenway USED Emma, until she
> figured out WTF, and used patti pineadz, and still does?
>
> google Emma, Erlich, ESMB
>
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
From: "Emma" <emmm...@bonbon.net>
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 14:16:55 +1100
Local: Sat, Jan 12 2008 11:16 pm
Subject: No moral crisis here
Reply to author | Forward | Print | Individual message | Show original
| Report this message | Find messages by this author
This is not the most difficult post I've ever had to write.
I never promised anyone I wouldn't write it.
I can't say what harm has been done because of the existance of the
situation I am about to post about. I'll leave that up to others to
judge.
What I am doing is posting only what I know to be true and only what
involves me.
A lot of people wonder about the influence of Patricia Greenway on
this newsgroup and in the infighting amongst critics. Is is the
"elephant in the
loungeroom" that people have tried to get Patty P and others to talk
about.
I am only going to talk about one incident because it is the only one
I can prove.
Take a look at this thread from Oct 06.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.scientology/browse_frm/thread/1341e155728d57ae/005090e62732dead?lnk=gst&q=New+Scn+website+disses+Minton#005090e62732dead
Take notice of my replies, especially #46 and also Patty's reply #62.
They are the same post essentially, written by PG. I altered the
formatting on mine slightly but they are the same post. PG had
originallty sent the post to Patty to post but got hold of me as well
and convinced me to post it. I emailed Patty to warn her that I'd
posted it but she didn't see the email from me & posted it anyway. In
fact that whole thread was initiated by PG emailing me and asking me
to post about it, and every one of my replies was written by PG.
I freaked out when I realised our mistake and was sure that Zinj would
pick
up on it but he didn't.
That was the last time I ever posted anything on behalf of Patricia
Greenway.
This goes on, it just does, and I'm sick of hiding it. I'm also sick
of Patricia Greenway using Patty P to do her dirty work for her. She
uses Patty as her sacrificial lamb and I think it's doing her harm.
I asked PG once why she doesn't post to ars herself and her reply was
that she was "too busy" and that it makes her "too angry", yet she
finds the time to write things for others to post. I don't understand
why she allows Patty to take enormous amounts of flack for doing it,
yet never actually comes to her friend's defence when she needs it.
IMO she is a coward.
- Emma
--
Ex Scientologist Message Board
http://www.forum.exscn.net
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.scientology/browse_frm/thread/325420892602455f/5578a50bd2a80044?hl=en&lnk=gst&q=emma+patricia#5578a50bd2a80044
"She (Patricia Greenway) isn't a "gyspy queen" but she isn't the
"tooth fairy" either. She's real, she's manipulative and she is
gutless. You don't know this because you've never been caught up in
her web. I have." Emma
xenubarb
Why the fuck did you think it necessary to smear Patricia with your
off-topic ravings?
You, Out of the Mind, and a couple others are so consumed with hatred
for this woman, you can't even think straight. You all look like raving
fanatics when you drag her name out. It's like Tory yammering OSA! OSA!
OSA! every time she doesn't like something.
Out_Of_The_Dark
>
> - Show quoted text -
"Do as I say, not as I do"? You hypocrite.
Since you dragged me into your comment: I never hated Patricia
Greenway. She hates me. All I did was mention the name Rober Minton
and she sic'd her pitbulls on me anytime I posted something she didn't
like. Lately, you and some others have been barking alot like PattyP
and Tigger did when they posted for her in threads where her name is
mentioned. Let the coward speak for herself.
Lermanet.com Exposing the CON for over 10 years!
> You, Out of the Mind, and a couple others are so consumed with hatred
It is not we that are 'consumed by hatred', we are merely trying to
protect the public from one who is.
> for this woman, you can't even think straight. You all look like raving
> fanatics when you drag her name out. It's like Tory yammering OSA! OSA!
> OSA! every time she doesn't like something.
Read Emma's post, it is NOT merely a conspiracy theory
Do you consider "I helped the Lisa Mcpherson case" a valid
statement?
How much HELP does it take to bring a case to the same outcome that
scientology desired?
_ That is, a sealed secret settlement and no monies going to
support anti cult activities?
If you had been thrown off the BOD of the LMT for being disruptive,
would you brag in RADAR magazine that your were once a director?
(omitting that you were thrown off the board for destructive
activities)
When you have an opinion or agenda, do you work through proxies?
If YOU were named on the LMT Injunction, would YOU have given shawn
lonsdale $100 bill, after suggesting that you sit outside in June or
July (nobody sits outside in Florida's heat and humidity at that
time), and knowiong there were 150 cameras pointed at the public?
No you would NOT...
Out_Of_The_Dark
>
> - Show quoted text -
Being a member of the The Cult of Greenway precludes her from getting
it.
Lermanet.com Exposing the CON for over 10 years!
if bob minton gave you 2.5 million to make a movie THE PROFIT about
Hubbard that would have really done something helpful to expose
scientology, how much would you have spent on actual production of
said movie? Would you have spent more than the 150,000 Maria Pia
Gardini beleives she could have produced the same dismal product for?
A product that is considered unwatchable?
This is not hate, this are facts.
When bob was fighting for his life would you have engaged in conduct
that in effect tried to induce him to suicide to, IMO finally 'destroy
utterly' the fully fleeced, and once golden, goose?
Out_Of_The_Dark
>
> - Show quoted text -
RIP Shawn Lonsdale, Robert Minton and Peter Alexander - dead in one
way or another due to Patricia Greenway.
Eldon
Nownownow, Arnie,
I watched the whole damn movie when it was leaked, and I didn't think
it was unwatchable or I would have shut it off and stopped watching
it.
I'm not sure why Stacy and Patricia got into such a catfight, but I do
know Stacy was trying to undermine the movie at the same time Peter
and Patricia thought they had come up with a sort of cult underground
thingie. Oh, well.
But get off the claim of Pia Maria Gardini that she could have done it
for $150,000. Maybe with a couple of today's latest hi-def video
cameras and lotsa luck. But not on 35mm film, for God's sake.
I think Skip will probably back me up on this despite the fact that
his politics suck. At least he knows something about the gradients of
film making.
Out_Of_The_Dark
>
> - Show quoted text -
no,you're not sorry at all, AnonMSW
cultxpt
wrote:
>
> Take notice of my replies, especially #46 and also Patty's reply #62.
> They are the same post essentially, written by PG. I altered the
> formatting on mine slightly but they are the same post. PG had
> originallty sent the post to Patty to post but got hold of me as well
> and convinced me to post it. I emailed Patty to warn her that I'd
> posted it but she didn't see the email from me & posted it anyway. In
> fact that whole thread was initiated by PG emailing me and asking me
> to post about it, and every one of my replies was written by PG.
>
> I freaked out when I realised our mistake and was sure that Zinj would
> pick
> up on it but he didn't.
>
> That was the last time I ever posted anything on behalf of Patricia
> Greenway.
>
> This goes on, it just does, and I'm sick of hiding it. I'm also sick
> of Patricia Greenway using Patty P to do her dirty work for her. She
> uses Patty as her sacrificial lamb and I think it's doing her harm.
>
> I asked PG once why she doesn't post to ars herself and her reply was
> that she was "too busy" and that it makes her "too angry", yet she
> finds the time to write things for others to post. I don't understand
> why she allows Patty to take enormous amounts of flack for doing it,
> yet never actually comes to her friend's defence when she needs it.
>
> IMO she is a coward.
>
> - Emma
> --
>
> "She (Patricia Greenway) isn't a "gyspy queen" but she isn't the
> "tooth fairy" either. She's real, she's manipulative and she is
> gutless. You don't know this because you've never been caught up in
>
> - Show quoted text -
Hey, that's pretty cool. Those two posts are quite similar. WHY would
you post for Patricia Greenway? Does she have mitten hands that she
can't type herself? I would never post something that was not my
words without saying so. So I am completely baffled why TWO people
would post another person's words pretending they were their own.
My advice to everyone on the planet; just post your own words, or
say who you are posting for. Honesty and openness is the best policy.
Lermanet.com Exposing the CON for over 10 years!
They used the latest DVD cams NOT 35 mm, the conversion to 35 mm for
Cannes, was from the digital 'original', it was NOT shot in 35 mm
>
> I think Skip will probably back me up on this despite the fact that
> his politics suck. At least he knows something about the gradients of
> film making.
Ask skip about the only film he ever produced, which was from talking
my best freind, Gary Lowe, into getting his father to mortgage his
house, to finance a film for I think it was 100,000 to teach girls how
to use handguns. Ask Skip, he detests Gary Lowe, a fine man, who tried
so hard to make scientology work for years, and ended up decalred an
SP because he was in a divorce with his hiprofile actress wife....and
of course the cult of cash took HER side and decalred HIM an SP... now
stick to FACTS here and not endless diatribes...
>
>
so what? "Counting heads is not evidence" thisd is also covered in
LOGICAL FALLACIES
"Alternative explanations of empirical facts are always possible. Here
recognized experts have a prior right to be heard over one who
advances an insufficiently supported hypothesis. Counting noses of
adherents is not evidence. "
http://www.lermanet.com/dianetics/caltech-on-dianetics-1950.htm
This technique is used to recruiit people into scientology
saved from enturbulation.org..
http://ocmb.lermanet.us/discussion/viewtopic.php?t=467&highlight=profit
Twas brillig, and the slithy toves Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
All mimsy were the borogoves, And the mome raths outgrabe.LINK
> I'm still very happy the movie got released. Thanks for asking.
> Patty
yeah, Im VERY glad it is available too, it is now far easier for
folks to believe bob was in fact ripped off and that the PG
choreographed Bob is osa rubbish may have been used to cover up
evidence of the rip off...
hey look over THERE >>>
And it is so nice to know that those who thought this abominaton could
have been produced for under 100 grand were vindicated.. including
movie mogulista Maria Pia Gardini (ALSO called a LIAR by Miss
Greenway).
Maria Gardini is the # 1 ex member critic in italy.. who said this
after viewing it in Leipzeg..and told her friend, Robert Minton that
he had been CONNED...
And it is always nice to correct DECEITFUL statements, like " I was a
board member of the LMT" - when in fact the hypocrisy of this person
USING the LMT to gain credibility, was THROWN OFF THE BOARD FOR TRYING
TO DESTROY IT.
Nothing to see here folks!
and..
THIS posting was deleted from the Profit chatboard:
[quote="Deleted post to The Profit Chatboard - posted by an
Enturbulation.org member]
"Mr. Lawyer, sir, have you ever actually watched this movie?
If you haven't, let me post here some review and comments made by
anonymous folks about the releasableness of The Profit:
"Poor Guy, the next one that has no idea that there is no way you can
get something back once its out on the Net.
On the other Hand, since it seems to be a Bad Movie (havent seen it
yet) it might Vanish soon anyway."
"I doubt I'll ever watch it, but I downloaded it just for the
principle of having something that the scifags hate.
I might eventually show it to some friends and we can have a bad movie
night or something. Stuff like this needs to be shared."
"Meh...I don't see how that re-editing this film would ever make it
even worth watching, and believe me, it would take a stroke of pure
genius,or insanity, to pull that off. Even the make-up sucks.
For instance, as Powers lay in his Bed O' Doom, the ridiculous attempt
to make him look old and sickly came across like a mix of Howard
Hughes prior to him dying and someone who had scars from a bad skin
graft.
The only way "The Profit" will ever,ever make distribution is for it
to be completely re-done from the top.
I understand the Lawyers point (which is more of a plea..) but this
movie is a dead horse. Let it lay there while we have fun with it."
"Oh, this film (The Profit) is so bad that even Attack of The Killer
Tomatoes seems like a blockbuster movie compared to it...
It could be released but it would have to be in the venue that it's
some kind of party movie like Rocky Horror or when they used to hold
those B-move festivals at drive-ins or sit-in.
It could work as a campy movie, I bet even Anonymous could go for
"Profit" party at a theater, outdoor sit-in or 'movie rave'. Maybe the
makers could generate some financial success in that area."
These are not from me, but are actual quotes from others who have now
seen the movie. I was only able to make it through the first fifteen
minutes before I gave it up as unwatchable.
I cannot speak for Anonymous, no one person can, but it seems that the
general consensus is that - Yes, this movie is worth getting out there
for people to see, but, and I am very sorry for those who sank so much
money into making it, it's not gonna sell if released in a traditional
way. It's just too badly done.
If it's creators are truly more concerned about getting the message of
the film out, this is the best way to make sure it spreads - more
people will see it this way out of curiosity than would ever spend
money to buy it.
If their aim was to make money from the film, then I respectfully
suggest they go back to the drawing board for another try. "[/quote]
Regards
Arnie
In defense of Bob Minton
http://ocmb.lermanet.us/discussion/viewforum.php?f=33
Where is bob's 2.4 million?
Last edited by alerma2 on Mon Mar 24, 2008 8:28 pm; edited 1 time in
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alerma2
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Posts: 266
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 8:17 pm Post subject: Reply with
quote
> Why not suggest the same to arnie who is all over the Enturb.org
> and ars, posting crap about critics he hates?
> Patty
> --
> Education is not a hate crime-- Anonymous
The omission of key information, is a method used by CONfidence
scammers.
see http://www.FRAUDTECH.org by Lt Dennis Marlock
I detest those who use fallacious argument.
I detest deceitful manipulations.
My posts "all over the enturb board" are explaining to people how
hypnosis and logical fallacy are used to trick people into become
pawns of another. No names were used in those posts "all over the
enturb board' perhaps in one post...where I pointed out some OMITTED
data with the name of the person who omitted it
The OMITTED data I pointed out is TRUE DATA that was OMITTED
The legal definition of a FRAUD is anything that leads the reader to a
false conclusion
Ms Greenway chose to misrepresent herself, in the Radar article this
way: claiming she
"Was a member of the BOARD of the LMT" in order to gain readers
confidence?!?!
THAt was deceitful.
The omitted data is:
That Ms Greenway was tossed OFF, ejected, throw off, the Board of the
LMT LONG before any recant affidavit by Mr Minton.. because she was
spreading LIES about those in charge of the LMT after her deceitful
efforts to take the LMT over were realized.
but as usual, the truth isnt good enough for you..
The truth has always been good enough for me.
I try to teach people how to avoid being fooled by CON men.,
regards
arnie lerma
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alerma2
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Posts: 266
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 8:22 pm Post subject: Reply with
quote
http://ocmb.lermanet.us/discussion/viewforum.php?f=33
> JAFAW wrote:
> > "This is a bad b-movie, I mean really bad. I'm not sure if I can actually
> > watch the whole thing."
> > - Skeptic1337
> Shitty movie is shitty. Torrent doesn't fix that.
> John
Right John, it is shitty...end The Bridge wasn't shitty like this
The actors did not get paid, they were 'paid' on promises..
of 'residuals'..
I worked for TFC at an Amusement park "Butch Cassidy
and the SUndance Kid" Western show
at 6 Flags in Chiacgo at Technical Director in charge of EFX
and I know how cheap they are
No matter how many lies she might state,
it was very difficult and demanding work, I dont know anyone else
that could have done it so cheaply...the crew w\got so burnt out
that I talked to all of them and almost unionized the crew,
and told peter we either had to
have an authorized day off or
we were gonna walk off the job together.
Peter gave us the day off.
Patricia is still furious.. tough.
Maria Pia Gardini the ex-member #1 critic in Italy
claimed she could have made
something like the profit for under 100 grand instead of
the 2.5 million bob did giver them...
Anyone who states an inconvenient truth
that competes with her VERSION of truth
is attacked by Ms Greenway
as a liar and kook.
I'm glad this movie is finally available,
so you don't have to take my word for it
that it is less than professional..(cough)
Compare the supposedlt $2,500,000 production
of The Profit, to the $250 dollar production of The Bridge...
suddenly The Bridge (movie) looks awesome, and furthr
john q public, would understand The Bridge...
and NB: I did not post anything about it,
to try to spin reviews one way or the other,
to tell people what theyw ere going to see,
I agree with Wise Beard Man's assessment
of this unfortunate production. Now with this
POS out of the way, maybe we can all work
together and do something about scientology
It will look better in the rear view mirror.
http://ocmb.lermanet.us/discussion/viewforum.php?f=33
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alerma2
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Posts: 266
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 8:30 pm Post subject: Reply with
quote
Read the reply to Luke Lirot on The Profit message board.
Double ouchie.
http://z6.invisionfree.com/theprofit/index.php?showtopic=21
Mr. Lawyer, sir, have you ever actually watched this movie?
If you haven't, let me post here some review and comments made by
anonymous folks about the releasablness of The Profit:
"Poor Guy, the next one that has no idea that there is no way you can
get something back once its out on the Net.
On the other Hand, since it seems to be a Bad Movie (havent seen it
yet) it might Vanish soon anyway."
"I doubt I'll ever watch it, but I downloaded it just for the
principle of having something that the scifags hate.
I might eventually show it to some friends and we can have a bad movie
night or something. Stuff like this needs to be shared."
"Meh...I don't see how that re-editing this film would ever make it
even worth watching, and believe me, it would take a stroke of pure
genius,or insanity, to pull that off. Even the make-up sucks.
For instance, as Powers lay in his Bed O' Doom, the ridiculous attempt
to make him look old and sickly came across like a mix of Howard
Hughes prior to him dying and someone who had scars from a bad skin
graft.
The only way "The Profit" will ever,ever make distribution is for it
to be completely re-done from the top.
I understand the Lawyers point (which is more of a plea..) but this
movie is a dead horse. Let it lay there while we have fun with it."
"Oh, this film (The Profit) is so bad that even Attack of The Killer
Tomatoes seems like a blockbuster movie compared to it...
It could be released but it would have to be in the venue that it's
some kind of party movie like Rocky Horror or when they used to hold
those B-move festivals at drive-ins or sit-in.
It could work as a campy movie, I bet even Anonymous could go for
"Profit" party at a theater, outdoor sit-in or 'movie rave'. Maybe the
makers could generate some financial success in that area."
These are not from me, but are actual quotes from others who have now
seen the movie. I was only able to make it through the first fifteen
minutes before I gave it up as unwatchable.
I cannot speak for Anonymous, no one person can, but it seems that the
general consensus is that - Yes, this movie is worth getting out there
for people to see, but, and I am very sorry for those who sank so much
money into making it, it's not gonna sell if released in a traditional
way. It's just too badly done.
If it's creaters are truly more concerned about getting the message of
the film out, this is the best way to make sure it spreads - more
people will see it this way out of curiosity than would ever spend
money to buy it.
If their aim was to make money from the film, then I respectfully
suggest they go back to the drawing board for another try.
>
> > This is not hate, this are facts.
>
> > When bob was fighting for his life would you have engaged in conduct
> > that in effect tried to induce him to suicide to, IMO finally 'destroy
> > utterly' the fully fleeced, and once golden, goose?
-------------------
And speaking of who is practicing HATE, look at the #1 Scientology
HATE page, religious freedom watch,
and look at MY page,. whose quotes are used BY scientology to
depopularize me?? Who?
Patricia Greenway... the bulk of my own De-popularization page is
Greenway's FALSE and psychotic spews
Now find where my speech or words are used to depopularize someone
else engaged in this war, on RFW...
For 15 years I have ONLY spoken out on occassion in self defence when
attacked by poseurs whose only claim to fame is to have fooled a few
good people into supporting their twisted psychotic ramblings - which,
often use a hypntic technique derived from the "stage Attack Method"
and read this closely, it paralells the techniquecited by Peter
Letterese in a footnote of his RICO as a scientology tactics, called
MOBBING
repost:
A FAST hypnosis technique currently in vogue
This description of this particular technique seems so familiar,
anyone who recalls something like this, please email me..
Encyclopedia of Hypnotism by Carla Emery wrote:
The paternal induction style is abrupt, shocking, dictatorial, highly
authoritarian in tone, a domineering technique based on fear. A
paternal-style induction uses a fast, directive induction method with
a cold, unfriendly tone of voice. Ferenczi said that paternal hypnosis
reawakens the hating and fearing attitude learned by a little child
when disciplined by his parents. He said that, in paternal hypnosis,
the subject is motivated by need for "abasement" and for "compliance."
According to psychoanalysts, that need for abasement is an infantile,
erotic, masochistic complex.
Such a subject is in awe of the hypnotist, and submits to the
operator's demands out of fear of him.
...the hypnotist with the imposing exterior, who works by frightening
and startling...[is like] the stern, all-powerful father, to believe
in, to obey, to imitate whom, is the highest ambition of every
child...
[hypnosis] consists in the deliberate establishment of conditions
under which the tendency to blind belief and uncritical obedience
present in everyone, but usually kept repressed by the censor (remains
of the infantile-erotic loving and fearing of the parents), may
unconsciously be transferred to the person hypnotizing... (Ferenczi,
Sex in Psychoanalysis,Ch. 2)
[...]
Hypnosis always arouses a childlike state of mind: dependence and
transference. Transference means relating to the hypnotist as if to a
parent
figure, hero, or godlike spiritual leader.
...the hypnotic subject is being directed to assume a state of mind in
which mature discriminations are excluded and childish dependence upon
the
hypnotist is encouraged.
As some people are pleased to be in a state where life seems narrowed
down to an easily manageable level of closeness with a powerful
guiding parent, hypnosis is in no danger of extinction... (Kovel, p.
209)
In the midst of World War II, Margaret Estabrook reported, in a
Seattle newspaper, on research which created
an artificial childhood: ...hypnosis is a peculiar relationship
between two people. The hypnotist is a figure of parental authority,
just as a doctor is to a patient, or a teacher to his pupil. Even more
strikingly than in these other relationships, the subject tends to
respond emotionally to the hypnotist in the same manner that he
responded to his own parents in his childhood. In particular,
"parental" commands in the form of suggestions are readily obeyed...
(Margaret Estabrook, 1942, p. 1)
[...]
A hypnotist's use of authority can vary wildly. He can create the
state, then let the subject take full control; training in biofeedback
does that. At the other extreme, the hypnotist uses a totally
authoritarian strategy in which the subject never is expected to have
self-control in the hypnotic state again. Suggested total amnesia for
all events under trance may cause the subject to be consciously
unknowing of their hypnotic relationship. Complete amnesia is not
typical, however, even of deep trance events. Hypnosis, at best, is a
special way of encouraging a subject's unconscious mind to activate
its own capacity for healing. At worst, it can be the tool of an
abusive parasitizing of one mind by another for the purpose of
exploitation.
--------------
Who the hell is this poster, Arnie Lerma? see
http://ocmb.lermanet.us/discussion/viewtopic.php?t=381
Support: http://www.Lermanet.com Exposing the CON
WE COME BACK
for our friends and family
to get them out of scientology
before they end up here:
http://www.whyaretheydead.net
Lermanet.com Exposing the CON for over 10 years!
and you accuse ME of "hate"
Whose words festoon the #1 Hate site of Scientology, Religious
Freedum Watch...
on the arnie Lerma page? it is 80% written using Patricia Greenway's
quotes..
Now find where my descriptions of someone who is actually doing
something about the scientology problem have been used by scientology
to demonize THEM. I am VERY careful of collateral damage... I am not
careful about poseurs (fakes) and sleazy stage hypnotists.
You tell me who is the Hater.
"Hating CRIME is not a HATE Crime" Barbara Graham
Eldon
Well Arnie, you're sounding rather cruel today, but are you sure they
filmed the fucking thing on video to begin with? Video cameras weren't
all that high def back when they did it, and for some reason I
thouught it was shot on 35mm film.
Even 16mm film would have worked in a certain grainy way. But not the
video tech of that erra. HDTV has come a long, long way since then.
But yeah, The Profit wasn't quite a masterpiece. I think that outcome
was due to egotism and inexperrience, not treachery or avarice. Just
trying to be conciliatory here.
> ...
>
> read more »
Tigger
> People just out of a cult are vulnerable, often impressionable, and
> having just left everything that they believed in, and often their
> friends and family, are very dependent on the people who "rescued"
> them.
>
> when the people giving the push have a vested interest in recruiting
> the mental state of an ex-cultist in order to do it. Just as cults
> are unethical in exploiting their own knowledge of people's mental
> states in choosing to recruit at colleges, among sick people, at
> airports, and other places where people are likely to be in a
> transitional state in their lives, cult critics are unethical when
> they do it themselves.
>
> If there is anything Scientology critics do which is as repugnant as
> what Scientology itself does, it is attempts to recruit people
> directly out of the cult as foot soldiers in their crusade. People
> should be allowed to be themselves before being unduly influenced by
> cult critics.
>
> If I were ever giving advice to someone considering leaving
> Scientology, it would be to stay far, far away from the exploitative
> snakepit of Scientology criticism. There are too many snakes in this
> pit all too willing to poison the minds of ex-cultists, replacing the
> dogma of "SPs" with the dogma that "OSA" is responsible for
> everything. They are motivated primarily by desire for revenge and an
> ends justifies the means mentality predominates with these people.
>
> cultists view the cult leader, who has horribly betrayed and abused
> them, as the savior of humanity, the ex-cultists mindfucked by cult
> critics and turned out as foot soldiers similarly view the very people
> who have exploited them as their saviors.
>
Henri is spot on. According to Seigel and Conway "Snapping",
recovery from Scientology takes longer than reovery from any other
cult. Some time (depending how long a person was in the cult) is
NEEDED to recover from the dmage done by totalitarian mind control
groups. It takes time to get rid of the cult group think and think
for yourself.
ICSA (formerly American Family Foundation) has help for ex cult
members and their families. Tory and any other ex or thinking to
become an ex would be smart to check out ReFOCUS and get the help they
need to get their lives and MINDS back on the right tract. They fneed
to find out why they joined the "group", why they stayed so long and
why it was so hard to leave and return to thinking for themselves.
It would be TIME WELL SPENT and they can always come back and become a
critic and/or an activist if that's what THEY
decide they want to do.
Giambalvo, Carol: "Post-Cult Problems: An Exit Counselor's
Perspective"
http://www.icsahome.com/infoserv_articles/ryan_patrick_affnews12.html
Tigger
**********************************************************
"What you don't see with your eyes, don't invent with your mouth"
Old Jewish Proverb
*********************************************************
Rev Dennis L Erlich
>Giambalvo, Carol: "Post-Cult Problems: An Exit Counselor's
>Perspective"
> http://www.icsahome.com/infoserv_articles/ryan_patrick_affnews12.html
Excellent article I would recommend to any ex.
Dennis
Rev Dennis L Erlich
quoting werma:
>> If they never figure out how hypnosis works, because of your poo-
>> pooing as kooky the years of research we did at Lermanet.com they will
>> NEVER recover from the effects of the covert hypnosis in Scientology.
WTF??? "... years of research we did at Lermanet.com ... ???
<retch> He's working right out of Elrong's playbook.
What a fucking loon.
Tom Newton
Newton <t...@server.invalid> wrote:
Note that what you have here is a pathetic loser who spends his life
sitting on his ass at home and posting abusive articles to people and
organizations all over the internet while hiding behind scores of aliases.
And he actually thinks he's superior to someone who is in the
Church of Scientology.
The Church of Scientology, and Scientology, may have their flaws,
but they obviously have enough going for them to attract millions
of people and to have spread into 133 countries around the world
over the last 60 years.
I personally think that Scientology stinks, for the most part, but
I have a lot more respect for dedicated Scientologists than I do
for the hateful and malicious and dishonest and cowardly backstabbing
gossips (that's all they really are) of 'Anonymous' and similar hate
groups.
These people are simply disgusting.
Tom
> On 2008-08-09, in <52as94pc9i1dejqi0...@4ax.com>
> henri <he...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
>> People just out of a cult are vulnerable,
>
> Another idiot troll who thinks he's an expert on any subject he's
> skimmed a webpage on.
>
> Using the definition of "cult" this jerk is relying on, the
> Church of Scientology is no more a cult than any other church,
> and a lot less so than some.
>
> It is less of a cult than 'Anonymous' is.
>
> But "cult" is really a meaningless word. Or, rather, it has so many
> definitions as to be useless.
>
> What malicious bigots like this troll mean when they use it is:
> 'A group that I don't like'.
>
> It's the equivalent of calling a Black person a "nigger".
>
><snip>
>
> Tom
>
--
Real science: http://www.sethcenter.com/pages/bookstore.htm
If I read your article, I replied to it.
If I didn't reply to it, I didn't read it.
My newsfilter kills about 1/2 the posts to ARS.
Tigger
Patty Pieniadz
"Out_Of_The_Dark" <xscilen...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:27c31d9f-9d3b-4d04...@l64g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>RIP Shawn Lonsdale, Robert Minton and Peter Alexander - dead in one
>way or another due to Patricia Greenway.
Re: Shawn he's dead so Dox or STFU you insane bitch.
RE: Robert Minton and Peter Alexander. They are both alive and you
are a mean little twat that slimes people with lies.
Tigger
WARNING TO ANONS & anyone else who might fall for the bullshit of
Arnie Lerma and Still in the Dark Mary.
They need some exit counseling and a realilty check.
Tigger
henri
<Tiggeri...@webtv.net> wrote:
Nutcase "Out of Her Mind" gibbers:
>> Since you dragged me into your comment: I never hated Patricia
>> Greenway. She hates me. All I did was mention the name Rober Minton
Lying lunatic
http://tinyurl.com/65gkl2
Groups View all web results » Results 1 - 100 of 198 for
author:xscilentolog...@yahoo.com Greenway
Quaoar
Who is running the pressgangs? Who is holding recent exes in bondage?
Who is holding the weapons that force exes to *voluntarily* speak out?
Evey ex-Scientologist has the freedom to do whatever they wish to do.
To suggest otherwise is the height of arrogance.
Q
Maureen Drueck
> People just out of a cult are vulnerable, often impressionable, and
> having just left everything that they believed in, and often their
> friends and family, are very dependent on the people who "rescued"
> them.
>
> when the people giving the push have a vested interest in recruiting
> for their cause, especially when they're exploiting their knowledge of
> the mental state of an ex-cultist in order to do it.
Henri, this is no way to troll.for chicks. Nor wounded birds.
>
> It should be obvious what I'm talking about.
http://www.amazing.com:5000/scientology/testa-hubbard-on-sex.html
Pain and Sex (was: More from the rpf coo)
By an27...@anon.penet.fi (Andrew McPherson)
Tue, 4 Jul 1995 19:49:03 UTC
>Tony Sidaway
>
>Me:
>> No sausage allowed in rice and beans.
>
>Tony:
>> Don't they play "hide the sausage" in the C-Org, Dennis?
>
> No, Tony. Sex is part of the R6 implant. That and psych's.
> There's a Bulletin called Sex and Pain that talks about how
> aberrated sex is. I'd post it if the scienos hadn't stolen
> it in the raid. Maybe someone else?
>
> +--------------------------------------+
> Rev. Dennis L Erlich * * the inFormer * *
> dennis....@support.com + inF...@primenet.com
> "tar baby"
The article PAIN AND SEX was humbly gifted to mankind on August 26,
1982. ElRon wrote these words:
"There are two items in this universe that cause more trouble than
many others combined.
"One is PAIN.
"The other is SEX.
"One should know more about these things.
Hubbard then engages in his holy war against his perceived enemies:
"Despite the false data of Freud, psychologists, psychiatrists and
other criminals, they are not native to a being. They are only
artificial wavelengths. They have exact frequencies that can be
manufactured. A being or a machine can synthesize either one.
As we see, psychologists are psychiatrists are collectively called
criminals. I wonder whether any organization representing these
professions would object to such statements. In fact the question
arises whether you can call the members of a profession as a whole to
be criminals. Let us hope some legal wit is reading ars.
And so sex is nothing but a wavelength which can be "manufactured". I
wonder whether Co$ has such a wavelength-machine under development.
They would no longer have to sell any of their "religion". Instead
they could engage in selling their sex-machine. Would be easier to
sell, would put ars out of business and Woody would get his personal
machine for being upstat.
"Sex is a lock on and perversion of the "joy of creation" which
involves a whole being and expands him, but by using just one
wavelength, sex, this can be perverted and he contracts.
....
"When sex enters the scene, a being fixates and loses power.
Seriously: Here Hubbard clearly demonstrates one of the major defects
of his whole thing: He does not even vaguely understand that human
beings are not machines but feeling entities. But then feelings would
probably just be dramatizations of past events, even if pleasurable,
so feelings are bad. You all notice this defect in the arguments of
most of the Co$ posters. They can NOT understand what you try to tell
them. It is not that they would not want to, but when a person looses
all his feelings in exchange for an artificial rationality then of
course he cannot understand what actually is happening in the world
around him. It is like trying to explain to a blind man the colours
red or green.
And now Hubbard finally tells us where the idea of sex actually came
from (looks like some Xenu competition):
"Destructive creatures who do not want people big or reaching - since
they are terrified of punishment due to their crimes - invented pain
and sex to shrink people and cut their alertness, knowingness, power
and reach.
"Thus, you see people who are "experiencing" either pain or sex
introverting and not producing much.
"Pain and sex were the INVENTED tools of degradation.
Now I for one don't buy this nonsense of sex causing one to then work
less. In fact it seems just be the other way around: Where a person
has a fulfilled sex life one normally considers this to be one of the
expressions of a successful marriage. Happiness at home is a primary
factor for a productive work life.
It is not just a weird idea that in certain companies you PLUS your
spouse are invited to dinner with the boss and his wife before final
decisions of promotion to executive positions are being made. Where a
happily married couple is observed this serves as a sign indicating
responsibility, the spouse's support of your career, plus some sort of
guarantee that the company won't be surprised by a new executive who
has nothing else to do than to take out troubles at home on his work
force.
Of course, where you indoctrinate a married couple that sex is no good
you deny them feelings, feelings which would let the two grow together
even more closely. This probably is one of the purposes of this
bulletin: It is easier to separate married people because one of them
is needed in Alaska while the other has to set up Bejing mission over
the next five years. It is also easier to get husband or wife to write
knowledge reports about the other. Lots of things are easier when you
can assure that no other loyalty can really develop than the one to
Miscavige ben Hubbard ben Crowley ben Xenu. But then of course we
should not forget that Hubbard's familiy life was troublesome to some
degree letting his wife go to jail and many other incidents.
And Hubbard has observed more things:
"Lovers are seldom happy.
All this is, according to Hubbard, "provable electronic fact."
Now one sentence makes me wonder whether the infamous OT VIII
bulletin, which Saint Dennis believes to be a fabrication not by
Hubbard might not after all be of ElRon's hand. Speaking of pain and
sex, Hubbard says: "They are the most-used tool in the campaign
against beings in furthering the general goal of those creatures whose
sole ambition is destruction. .... They destroyed every great
civilization to date and are hard at work on this one.
Over to you Saint Dennis.
Andrew
====
Maureen
jerald
You know Q,
We don't agree on a lot of things but you arre spot on here. Each
member has to decide what they can and can't do when it comes to
speaking out. If we tried to force them to do otherwise we are not
better than those who try to force them not to speak.
Some can jump right in to the critic movement and some can't. But
it's up to them and unless we know their hearts and minds we have no
business deciding what is right for them.
jerald
xenubarb
victims too.
Obscene Dog
> On 2008-08-09, in <pin1n5x...@treeoflife.3v8l2x.net> Tom Newton
> <t...@server.invalid> wrote:
>
> Note that what you have here is a pathetic loser who spends his life
> sitting on his ass at home and posting abusive articles to people and
> organizations all over the internet while hiding behind scores of
> aliases.
Tom / Alan... you do realise you're replying to one of your own posts and
you are therefore talking about yourself?
You need to lay off the Panther Piss. It's rotting your brain as well as
your liver.
Saying that, I agree with your post!
Patty Pieniadz
On Aug 10, 12:39 pm, "Lermanet.com Exposing the CON for over 10
years!" <ale...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On Aug 9, 7:38 pm, henri <he...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
> > People just out of a cult are vulnerable, often impressionable, and
> > having just left everything that they believed in, and often their
> > friends and family, are very dependent on the people who "rescued"
> > them.
>
> sociopaths and learn how to fairgame, and do favors for patricia
> greenway?
How about naming some names rather than all these generalities.
The chatboard with the sociopaths that you are referring to is
#altreligionscientology found on undernet.
The ops of this channel include, me,(an ex cultist) tikk (an attorney),
henri (law student), Dr. Dave Touretzsky, (phd in Computer Science) Mir
(law degree). Active participants include Barbz, Dennis Erlich. There
are of course others and we do not sec check the people who show up nor
do we ban them for not showing copies of their driver's licence like you
used to do when you ran #scn-lies. Patricia Greenway pops in once
every month or less. She must have some very powerful juju to be
hypnotizing this lot of hard core critics.
LOL!
Out_Of_The_Dark
> On Aug 10, 10:39 am, Out_Of_The_Dark <xscilentolog...@yahoo.com>
>
> > "She (Patricia Greenway) isn't a "gyspy queen" but she isn't the
> > "tooth fairy" either. She's real, she's manipulative and she is
> > gutless. You don't know this because you've never been caught up in
> > her web. I have." Emma- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Hey, that's pretty cool. Those two posts are quite similar. WHY would
> you post for Patricia Greenway? Does she have mitten hands that she
> can't type herself? < <
If only it were that benign a reason.
It's a control thing. Somehow she managed to hold sway over them.
Emma was smart to tell the truth openly and turn way from all that
stuff and I give her lots of credit for doing that.
> I would never post something that was not my
> words without saying so. So I am completely baffled why TWO people
> would post another person's words pretending they were their own. <
Patty or Tigger should answer that since they've been the main
culprit.
Maybe Henri can add to it since he always seems to tag on those
attacking posts.
> My advice to everyone on the planet; just post your own words, or
> say who you are posting for. Honesty and openness is the best policy <
I totally agree but this is ARS, so being alert to the fraud is
important. I would have never guessed it if I havd not been the
repeated target of it.
Out_Of_The_Dark
That's a predictable response. I exposed you for having committed the
fraud of posting for Patricia Greenway and you call it bullshit. Ha!!
I think it's important to get the facts out in the open so anons know
what they are dealing with. Patty Pooks little ruse didn't last long.
Tigger
BULLSHIT!
>
> Emma was smart to tell the truth openly and turn way from all that
> stuff and I give her lots of credit for doing that.
LOL....Emma's truth may be true for Emma......but is it the whole
truth? You forgot to fetch and carry Patty's post which you and/or
Ladybird posted on Lerma's message board. Emma apparently is under
the control of ROAN, (the OCMB moderaor who just caused a major
shitstorm on OCMB because of all his "selective" deletions.) Poor
Emma. I feel sorry for her. Roan ended a great friendship between
Patty and Emma and he just got some ANONS hopping mad.
>
> > I would never post something that was not my
> > words without saying so. So I am completely baffled why TWO people
> > would post another person's words pretending they were their own. <
Look, twit.....so I asked Patricia for information about certain
issues. I've asked lots of people for information.
Unlike Still in the Dark Mary, I go to the horse's mouth. LOL I even
went to the infamous old Scientology coot, Andrew Bagley, and asked
for information. Also Bob Lobsinger, winner of the 1991 Leo J. Ryan
award, Dr. Stephen kent, Jolly West, Cynthia Kisser, Carol Giambalvo,
and others.
> Patty or Tigger should answer that since they've been the main
> culprit.
I'm not Patty and Patty's not me so we can't be "the main
CULPRIT".
>
> Maybe Henri can add to it since he always seems to tag on those
> attacking posts.
Well you got that right. Yours and Lerma's are "attacking posts",
just as your posts about Patricia Greenway (and Peter Alexander) have
been personal attacks for years.
>
> > My advice to everyone on the planet; just post your own words, or
> > say who you are posting for. Honesty and openness is the best policy <
>
> I totally agree but this is ARS, so being alert to the fraud is
> important. I would have never guessed it if I havd not been the
> repeated target of it.- Hide quoted text -
You got that wrong. YOU started it with your attacks on Peter
Alexander, who hasn't posted in years, whom you don't know, whom you
refused to ask and YOU dragged up Black PR by Scientology and his ex
(Scientologist) wife. Scientology doesn't need the RFW when you and
Lerma start your bullshitting.
The Anons and everyone else should know about all the fraudulent
claims you, Lerma and Tory have made about Patricia Greenway and/or
Peter Alexander and stay far away from both of you.
>
> - Show quoted text -
Tigger
**********************************************************
"I don't give them hell. I tell them the truth and they think it's
hell". Harry Truman, U.S. President
**********************************************************
Out_Of_The_Dark
>
> - Show quoted text -
What do you know? Nothing. Go back to your hole, mole.
Out_Of_The_Dark
>
> - Show quoted text -
Actually, I bet you're posting for the coward Patricia Greenway. The
venom is similar.
Tigger
> On Aug 10, 6:16 pm, Tigger <Tiggerinthe...@webtv.net> wrote:
>
> > WARNING TO ANONS & anyone else who might fall for the bullshit of
> > Arnie Lerma and Still in the Dark Mary.
>
> > They need some exit counseling and a realilty check.
>
> > Tigger
>
> That's a predictable response. I exposed you for having committed the
> fraud of posting for Patricia Greenway and you call it bullshit. Ha!!
HA is right. Me thinks you just exposed yourself as LADYBIRD. LOL
Ladybird claimed she did the exposing.
What you two (one?) have really exposed is that you/she need exit
counseling to stop practicing Scientology.
> I think it's important to get the facts out in the open so anons know
> what they are dealing with. Patty Pooks little ruse didn't last long.
O.K. I've given you the facts I know. I ask people for information.
Sometimes I pass on that information.
Sometimes I don't. Sometimes I say where I got the information.
Sometimes I don't.
When I wrote Letters to the Editor of the Daily Oklahoman about
NarCONon Chilloco back in the 90's, I didn't say that information came
from Bob Lobsinger,
publisher of the Newkirk Hearld Journal or the Ass't State Attorney
General.
LOL....some information I didn't share was the THE BIG NARCONON SEWER
CLEANUP. The Scienos found out there was going to be a state
inspection and they had had a major sewer back up......so they had all
the "clients" out to scoop up the "shit" and hide it.
Here........see for yourself.
THE LETTERS WAR
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.scientology/browse_thread/thread/642373061f350c09/2e83f15086068334?lnk=st&q=Tigger%2C
Daily Oklahoman%2C Narconon Chilocco#2e83f15086068334
Scroll down to J. WILSON.
Was there something wrong with any information that Patty and/or I
provided? If so, confront that and stop charging the messenger(s)
like a raging bull. That's too, too, too, SCIENTOLOGICAL. A fact
is a fact. Doesn't matter if a Democrat or Repulican or a critic or a
Scientologist provides it.....it's still a fact.
Tigger
******************************************************
"What you don't see with your eyes, don't invent with your mouth."
Old Jewish Proverb
**********************************************************
Tigger
LOL.......what do ya wanna bet? Any venom I've acquired has been
learned by posting on a.r.s. for years. I'm really quite nice IRL.
Speaking of "COWARDS". The only coward I see here is YOU. Everybody
knows (or can easily find out) who Patty and Patricia are. Ditto for
Henri. Ditto for me. So who are you?
Tigger
BTW Did you know Bob Penney?
*********************************************************
"What you don't see with your eyes, don't invent with your mouth."
Old Jewish Proverb
********************************************************
*********************************************************
Smurf
thought this NG was about Scientology, not an inter-personal attack &
complaint forum among the OG critics.
John Dorsay
<snip>
> I think the whole lot of you need some heavy doses of Valium. I
> thought this NG was about Scientology, not an inter-personal attack &
> complaint forum among the OG critics.
You must be new here....
jerald
>
> - Show quoted text -
Valium when Xanax is so much better???
Get used to it. Sometimes we are worse on each other than we are on
scientology.
Black Mamba
news:a1dc0dc1-1abf-4199...@v57g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 9, 7:38 pm, henri <he...@nowhere.com> wrote:
> People just out of a cult are vulnerable, often impressionable, and
> having just left everything that they believed in, and often their
> friends and family, are very dependent on the people who "rescued"
> them.
> While for some people, it may be empowering, the "push" is unethical,
> when the people giving the push have a vested interest in recruiting
Arnie:
I already know this stuff.
I have visited to your web site like 50,000 times.
They should change the name of it to Lurkanet instead of Lermanet for
lurkers.
--
Larry
{LaserClam Is Like A Pit Viper!}
Black Mamba
news:6g960fF...@mid.individual.net...
Big Fatso!
xenubarb
LOL!
Welcome to the OGDome...
henri
<Miscavige....@gmail.com> wrote:
>I think the whole lot of you need some heavy doses of Valium. I
>thought this NG was about Scientology, not an inter-personal attack &
>complaint forum among the OG critics.
I just said that Scientology and other destructive cults fuck people
up and they should be allowed to recover before being recruited into
so-called "anti-cult" activities. People went nutso-buggo.
The responses from nutcases, frothing at the mouth, are pretty
indicative of the mentalities of people who are more concerned with
pushing their own personal causes than the welfare of people escaping
Scientology.
I would advise people escaping Scientology to stay far, far, away from
people who think it's okay to turn them out, the moment they escape,
into pawns in their personal game.
Check the appendix to Snapping, by Conway & Siegelman. Disputed or
not, the evidence seems to indicate that Scientology is one of the
most mentally destructive of all cults. People take months and years
to recover. They should be allowed to do so.
They shouldn't be considered foot soldiers.
I can see from the responses that some people consider them exactly
that, and consider my post to be an attack on their source of "raw
meat."
I would hope that "critics" of Scientology would be superior to the
cult they criticize, and place the welfare of cult victims ahead of
their own short-term goals of attacking Scientology.
But I would probably be disappointed, as I usually have been.
Ball of Fluff
"Out_Of_The_Dark" <xscilen...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:27c31d9f-9d3b-4d04...@l64g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
> - Show quoted text -
> RIP Shawn Lonsdale, Robert Minton and Peter Alexander - dead in one
> way or another due to Patricia Greenway.
What the ~fuck~?
You're implicating Patricia Greenway in Shawn Lonsdale's death? Wow, that's
terrible, Mary. That's a truly vicious bit of slander. What evidence- even
the most vague- could you possibly have to paint this woman as a murderer?
How irresponsible. That could actually get you sued.
And Minton and Alexander are alive. Hey, I know, maybe I could say that
since they are alive, it's due to Patricia Greenway.
C
Smurf
wrote:
> "Out_Of_The_Dark" <xscilentolog...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
woman that some critics clearly do not like going to change the face
of Scientology. The Scilons can sit back and watch the critics attack
and eat their own when they fall into disfavor.
henri
<getof...@fluffentology.com> wrote:
>What the ~fuck~?
>You're implicating Patricia Greenway in Shawn Lonsdale's death? Wow, that's
>terrible, Mary. That's a truly vicious bit of slander.
That's its stock in trade.
>What evidence- even
>the most vague- could you possibly have to paint this woman as a murderer?
>How irresponsible. That could actually get you sued.
Since when has having no evidence at all stopped this raving nutcase
from making shit up?
>And Minton and Alexander are alive. Hey, I know, maybe I could say that
>since they are alive, it's due to Patricia Greenway.
Peter Alexander is alive and well and needless to say, does not agree
with the abjectly demented ravings of this loathesome creature.
AnoNotAmused
> On 2008-08-09, in <52as94pc9i1dejqi0vov6apan24kmma...@4ax.com>> Another idiot troll who thinks he's an expert on any subject he's
> skimmed a webpage on.
>
> Using the definition of "cult" this jerk is relying on, the
> Church of Scientology is no more a cult than any other church,
> and a lot less so than some.
>
> It is less of a cult than 'Anonymous' is.
>
> But "cult" is really a meaningless word. Or, rather, it has so many
> definitions as to be useless.
>
> What malicious bigots like this troll mean when they use it is:
> 'A group that I don't like'.
>
> It's the equivalent of calling a Black person a "nigger".
>
> <snip>
>
> Tom
>
> --
> Real science:http://www.sethcenter.com/pages/bookstore.htm
> If I read your article, I replied to it.
> If I didn't reply to it, I didn't read it.
> My newsfilter kills about 1/2 the posts to ARS.
You're kidding right? $cientology a "religion?" Heh, what planet are
you from, "Teegack?" Dude, "religions" and "churches" feed the poor
and clothe them; they help people get off drugs not introduce them to
new ones like NarCONon does; they actually care about "religious
freedom" rather than hiding behind it as a ruse to operate a tax free
criminal organization; they don't prey upon disaster for photo ops
like Vulture Ministers.
What part of the definition of CULT does $cilontology not fit? It's no-
brainer, oh no wait... that's write $cientology REQUIRES the
sublimation of the "rational mind" (they word "reactive") to the CULT
THINK. WHAT PLANET ARE YOU FROM YOU RIDICULOUS MOTHERFUCKER?
AnoNotAmused
> On 2008-08-09, in <pin1n5xb42....@treeoflife.3v8l2x.net> Tom
>
> Newton <t...@server.invalid> wrote:
>
> Note that what you have here is a astute thinker who spends his life
> working dilligently posting articles to people and
> organizations all over the internet while hiding behind scores of aliases
>
> And actually he's superior to someone who believes in the
> Church of Scientology.
>
> The Church of Scientology, and Scientology, have HUGE flaws,
> but they obviously have enough going for them to attract TENS OF
> THOUSANDS of people and to have spread into any stupid enough
> not to completely outlaw it.
>
> I personally think that Scientology stinks, for the most part, but
> I really kiss the ass of dedicated Scientologists.
> The hateful and malicious and often very accurate and cowardly backstabbing
> gossips (that's all $cilontologists really areand 'Anonymous' and similar civil
> rights groups are going to destroy it.
>
> These people are simply disgusting.
>
> Tom
>
>
>
> > On 2008-08-09, in <52as94pc9i1dejqi0vov6apan24kmma...@4ax.com>
> > henri <he...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
>
> > Another idiot troll who thinks he's an expert on any subject he's
>
> > Using the definition of "cult" this jerk is relying on, the
>
> > It is HUGE cult, unlike what 'Anonymous' is.
>
> > But "cult" is ver important and meaningful word. It's criteria
> > are so specific that $cilontology fits precisely..
>
> > What malicious bigots like this troll mean when they use it is:
>
> > It's the equivalent of calling a Black person a "Black person".
>
> ><snip>
>
> > Tom
>
Finally, a post quoted that I can agree with. Nice job all, I'm glad
we finally agree on something.
Maureen Drueck
> People just out of a cult are vulnerable, often impressionable, and
> having just left everything that they believed in, and often their
> friends and family, are very dependent on the people who "rescued"
> them.
>
> While for some people, it may be empowering, the "push" is unethical,
> when the people giving the push have a vested interest in recruiting
> are unethical in exploiting their own knowledge of people's mental
> states in choosing to recruit at colleges, among sick people, at
> airports, and other places where people are likely to be in a
> transitional state in their lives, cult critics are unethical when
> they do it themselves.
>
> If there is anything Scientology critics do which is as repugnant as
> what Scientology itself does, it is attempts to recruit people
> directly out of the cult as foot soldiers in their crusade. People
> should be allowed to be themselves before being unduly influenced by
> cult critics.
>
> If I were ever giving advice to someone considering leaving
> Scientology, it would be to stay far, far away from the exploitative
> snakepit of Scientology criticism. There are too many snakes in this
> pit all too willing to poison the minds of ex-cultists, replacing the
> dogma of "SPs" with the dogma that "OSA" is responsible for
> everything. They are motivated primarily by desire for revenge and an
> ends justifies the means mentality predominates with these people.
>
> What is particularly tragic is that just as Scientologists and other
> cultists view the cult leader, who has horribly betrayed and abused
> them, as the savior of humanity, the ex-cultists mindfucked by cult
> critics and turned out as foot soldiers similarly view the very people
> who have exploited them as their saviors.
>
> It should be obvious what I'm talking about.
There is a very nice citation from ICSA pertaining to this topic. Alot
of exes are subject to different stress threshholds, rather than being
restimulated in hypnosis. (William Sargant) Neurosis and fear are
sometimes displayed by outsiders, which in totality makes entire
conversations head south, as in the "sky is falling" fear and
mistrusting implications.
Religious Freedumb watch often leaves off facts, or adds bizarre ones,
so the picture received is for audience participation. This is
interrogation without questioning. Like a trap.
The delivery and attack or setup to confirm character assassination
using citations from professionals after the fact is disingenious. The
reaction may well look insane, because that is that consistency that
you have established. That is how people remember you. And that is
something you cannot paint onto anyone else. When it becomes more
about other people, others often forget what or why you may be here.
fwiw
And some exes are here to share and expose the Con called Scientology.
And I have helped with research too, as it is important to understand
the cultic invocations and coercions that inevitably cause the
dissipation of the facts, revisions of history and monetary losses
that have to be defended, via attack and the fair game doctrine.
Because character assassination and the systematic breakdown of
persona is the communication most eloquently delivered at targets in
the hubbard cult. And it always has that persecutory taint and with
public humiliation.
Maureen
Singer, Margaret Thaler and Edgar H. Schein, "Projective Test
Responses of Prisoners of War Following Repatriation."
Psychiatry , 1958, Vol. 21. ÒTests conducted on American
ex-POW's returned during the Big and Little Switches in Korea
showed differences in characteristics between
non-collaborators and corroborators. The latter showed more
typical and humanly responsive reactions to psychological
testing than the former, who tended to be more apathetic and
emotionally barren or withdrawn. Active resisters, however,
often showed a pattern of reaction or responsiveness like
that of collaborators. Rorschach tests provided clues, with a
good statistical incidence of reliability, for
differentiation between collaborators and non-collaborators.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.scientology/msg/963080203d5936d3?hl=en
ptsc
View profile
More options Dec 9 2000, 10:59 am
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
From: ptsc <p...@my-deja.com>
Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 09:14:06 -0500
Local: Sat, Dec 9 2000 10:14 am
Subject: Why so many criminals in Scientology?
Reply to author | Forward | Print | View thread | Show original |
Report this message | Find messages by this author
How come so many Scientologists and Scientology supporters have
criminal
records? How come so many of them are losers who are taking their
personal
frustration out on the critics of their crimes?
We have Founder L. Ron Hubbard with his criminal conviction for petty
theft for
passing bad checks and with a record of wife-beating and drug abuse,
who
died on psych drugs while hiding from the authorities. Not only did
his ex-wife
and his own son describe him as a "paranoid schizophrenic" but a judge
even
described the cult he founded as "paranoid and schizophrenic" and
stated that
this was a "reflection of its founder." Among his other crimes, L.
Ron Hubbard
was sentenced to four years of prison for fraud by a French court, but
he
remained a fugitive from this charge as well.
Theft conviction
http://www.xs4all.nl/~kspaink/cos/LRH-bio/theft.htm
Wife-beating and drug abuse
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/wakefield/us-02.html
Death on psych drugs coroner report
http://home.earthlink.net/~snefru/deathoflrh/
Described as a "paranoid schizophrenic" by ex-wife
http://home.kvalito.no/~xenu/archive/books/apobs/bs3-2.htm
Described as a "paranoid, schizophrenic megalomaniac" by his own son
http://www.primenet.com/~lippard/bfm/bfm22.htm
Described as "schizophrenic and paranoid" by judge
http://www.lermanet.com/cos/morejud.html
Convicted of fraud and sentenced to four years in prison
http://www.lermanet.com/cos/LRHfraud.html
Then we have L. Ron Hubbard's third wife Mary Sue Hubbard, who was
convicted of
felonies and served jail time for helping her husband mastermind the
biggest
domestic espionage case in American history, involving burglarizing
government
offices routinely and committing other crimes. Even her own lawyers
admitted
that she had committed these crimes, as well as 11 other
Scientologists who
were convicted of crimes including felonies.
Sentencing memorandum describing crimes as "heinous and vicious"
http://members.tripod.com/cic_ops/posts/court.txt
Stipulation of evidence admitting to multiple felonies by Hubbard and
other
defendants
http://www.entheta.net/entheta/go/legal/stipul01.txt
Next comes the President of the cult he founded, Heber Jentzsch, who
is
currently out on a million dollars bail for criminal charges in
Spain. A
habitual liar, who constantly claims that his cult has eight million
members,
this criminal can be seen in handcuffs all around the net.
Heber Jentzsch Spanish criminal charges
http://www.lermanet.com/heberspanishwoes.htm
Photos of Heber Jentzsch in handcuffs
http://home.kvalito.no/~xenu/archive/photoalbum/spain.html
The cult is led by high-school dropout David Miscavige, who when he
has
been forced to be deposed in court concerning his criminal activities,
has
exposed his sexual perversions by exploding in a bizarre outburst
about
public buggery
David Miscavige bizarre buggery outburst
http://holysmoke.org/lm/lm005.htm
Former French President of the Cult Jean-Jacques Mazier has even been
convicted of homicide in the death of Patrice Vic
French Scientology cult leader convicted of homicide:
http://www.rickross.com/reference/Art54.html
In fact, this criminal cult is so criminal that even the cult itself,
rather
than its own members, has been criminally convicted in Canada for
breach of
the public trust
Scientology crime cult criminally convicted in Canada
http://www.lermanet.com/reference/scientologyincanada.htm
Ths cult lies so much and so often that it regularly loses libel
cases.
It has lost the largest libel judgment in Canadian history, and was
recently
forced to issue an apology in open court for libelling a critic of its
criminal
activities, Bonnie Wood
Scientology loses biggest libel verdict in Canadian history
http://wpxx02.toxi.uni-wuerzburg.de/~krasel/CoS/mgarde/hillmann.txt
Scientology forced to apologize for libel
http://www.shellac.freeserve.co.uk/reports/all.html
One wonders what sort of criminal element would have anything to do
with
such a criminal cult, with such an extensive history of criminal
convictions
at every level in the organization, and with a history of crimes
ranging
from the broad spectrum of sexual perversion, drug abuse, petty theft,
fraud and even homicide. Certainly, only a criminal would have
anything
to do with such a virulent and heinous crime cult.
ptsc
==
Wartwhore (Warrior <war...@xenu.ca>) wrote:
>Here's a letter from Ron to former Sea Org member Andre Tabayoyon.
~Was~ it a letter "from Ron," Wartwhore? That would really be the crux
of the matter, now, wouldn't it. Again, you make a declarative
assertion
that not only is without substantive and verifiable foundation, but,
in
fact, has many very pertinent facts in the balance weighing ~against~
it
actually being "from Ron," at least some of which facts I ~know~ that
YOU ~know~. And so you intentionally withheld them, didn't you, you
coy
little hanging turd, you?
Now, before getting to a recitation of those facts, the prudent and
unbiased and impartial observer needfully asks: ~why~ would such a
prissy little holier-than-thou shitstain like you ~do~ such a patently
and willfully dishonest thing?
Of course, you ~did~ manage to get a knee-jerk sputtering paroxysm out
of "Kim P." But, really, who cares about that airheaded hysterical
cunt?
So ~that~ couldn't have been it. Could it? Or do you just like to hear
the more impressionable gossip-bags shriek? Are you ~that~ starved for
some female attention? That definitely ~could~ be it. Or is that
you're
just fundamentally so debased, biased, crooked, and dishonest that
there
simply is no other way for you to approach ~any~ subject? Could ~that~
be the case? I mean, so far you're batting a thousand in that
direction.
Well, whatever it is, the bulk of the population, fortunately, isn't
made up of trash like you and Armstrong and Kim P. and Magoo and
company, so when other facts are made available, the sentient will
assimilate those facts and weigh them fairly in the balance.
So we're going to do a little of that now, if you don't mind. And if
you
do mind, just sit there and swallow your fucking black tongue, and
please try and manage to choke on it.
Let's look at the date and routing of that "letter" you submitted into
"evidence":
> 15 September 1978
>
> Andre Tabayoyon
> RPF WUS
Oh, well, 15 September 1978! That's quite a red-letter date,
Wartwhore--or didn't you know? If you didn't, it's only because you're
too fucking perversely bent on spreading sick sensationalism that you
didn't bother to find out. So I'm going to 'splain it to you.
First, a little background: just about four months earlier, on
Thursday,
4 May 1978, ALL of the copyrights that L. Ron Hubbard had assigned
into
perpetuity to HASI, Inc. (which had become part of CSC) were covertly
transferred OUT of CSC and INTO the estate of "L. Ron Hubbard"--
without
any "L. Ron Hubbard" being involved at ~all~. This could only have
been
effected by the attorneys handling his "business interests" at the
time:
Norton S. Karno, Sherman Lenske, and Stephen Lenske. (BTW, this
September date was also just months before Sherman Lenske would start
doing double-duty as the attorney handling Hubbard's "business
interests," while also presenting himself to the world as President of
Temple Beth Torah in Granada Hills. Lovely people, don't you think?
Your
kind of people, Wartwhore.)
Anyway, the covert transfer of the copyrights is memorialized here:
http://www.sc-i-r-s-ology.pair.com/documents/1978-05-04btbbplassign.html
As you'll see--well, not ~you~, asshole, because I know you'd rather
not
know the truth--but as people with a measurable IQ will see, this
covert
transfer of ownership was done under the camoflage of pretending to
transfer only "Board Policy Letters" (BPLs) and "Board Technical
Bulletins" (BTBs)--both of which just HAPPENED to have been brought
into
being in January 1974 withing ONE FUCKING WEEK of Urquhart having
created the RPF, all while "L. Ron Hubbard" was being confined
incommunicado, for months, in a cabin on the Apollo, supposedly the
victim of his one-and-only-ever single-vehicle "motorcycle accident."
But coming back up to 1978: on or about 10 May 1978, just days after
the
covert copyrights transfer, a Soviet Tupolev-22 bomber--a type
code-named "Blinder" by NATO--that reportedly had been configured for
the gathering of electronic and photographic intelligence, went down
in
the jungles somewhere in Zaire. The Joint Chiefs decided to call on
two
CIA remote-viewers: a Gary Langford at SRI (under Scientology OT VII
Hal
Puthoff), and a woman named Frances Bryan at Wright-Patterson Air
Force
Base. Independently, both produced sketches of a river, which were
then
compared to maps of the general area where the plane was thought to
have
been. A cabled summary of their results went via the Pentagon to the
CIA
station chief in Kinshasa. But the remote-viewers' co-ordinates were
over 70 miles away from where the ~local~ CIA team on the ground
believed the plane had gone down. Yet the wreckage of the plane was
soon
found less than three miles from where the remote-viewers had
pin-pointed it. CIA Director Stansfield Turner briefed President Jimmy
Carter on the successful operation and recovery--all of which loose-
lips
Carter described, years later, during a speech at a college. Of course
the entire secret program was based on Scientology materials that had
been stolen by the CIA-contracted US government operatives Puthoff,
Ingo
Swann, and Pat Price:
http://www.sc-i-r-s-ology.pair.com/documents/1972-10-01ciacontract.html
http://www.sc-i-r-s-ology.pair.com/documents/1973-02-01ciabriefing.html
http://www.sc-i-r-s-ology.pair.com/documents/1973-11-09nsarvreport.html
http://www.sc-i-r-s-ology.pair.com/documents/1974-02-01ciacontract2.html
http://www.sc-i-r-s-ology.pair.com/documents/1975-01-15inhouseciarvers.html
I'm just giving you some CONTEXT for what follows, Wartwhore. Because
it
was NO MORE THAN SIX DAYS LATER, on 16 May 1978, that the Washington
Post hit the streets with this sensationalistic headline in the
post-Nixon, post-Watergate era: "Scientologists Kept Files on
'Enemies;'
Church Kept Detailed Files on 'Enemies;' Inventory of Seized Documents
Shows Memos on Congressmen and Judges." Wow. Timing is everything,
isn't
it?
Now moving forward toward September 1978: it was 8 July 1978 that US
District Court Judge Lucas ruled that the FBI's 1977 seizure of
hundreds
of thousands of Scientology documents from the GO was "legal"--at
least
on one coast. Of course, the ruling for the opposite coast was
entirely
contrary, but confusion is paramount in an operation like this, so
FUCK
it. The feds had what they needed to hack down the GO, and that's all
that mattered. (You might notice that the Washington Post screaming
headlines ~preceded~ this ruling by almost two months. No, YOU
probably
wouldn't notice that ever. That's why I used this two-by-four tactic
to
bring it to your attention.)
And so we come to August 1978, and man, does the shit ever hit the
fan.
Because beginning on 15 August 1978, and going on for fucking WEEKS,
the
media was absolutely ~saturated~ with these kinds of stories and
headlines:
AP, 15 August 1978: "Eleven members and officials of the
Church of Scientology, including the wife of its founder,
were indicted Tuesday on charges that include stealing
government documents and planting bugging devices in
government offices."
NEW YORK TIMES, 16 August 1978: "Federal grand jury indicts
11 Church of Scientology members on charges of stealing
Government documents and bugging government offices. Mary Sue
Hubbard, wife of church's founder, L Ron Hubbard, is among
defendants. Indictment charges that Scientologists planted
agents in Government to find out about investigations in
church. Government's case is based partly on findings of FBI
July '77 raid on church offices in Washington and Los
Angeles." (From NYT Abstracts)
THE WASHINGTON POST, 16 August 1978: "HEADLINE: U.S. Charges
Scientology Conspiracy; 11 Scientologists Charged With Plot
to Spy on Government; 11 Church Agents Accused of Spying,
Bugging and Theft."
ST. PETERSBURG TIMES, 16 August 1978: "US Indicts Eleven in
Scientology Case; A federal grand jury indicted eleven
Scientologists accusing them of 216 cts. of conspiracy, theft
and burglary, in a plot by high level members of the Church
of Scientology to break into government buildings and steal
documents."
AP, 17 August 1978: "Nine of the eleven members and officials
of the Church of Scientology accused in a plot to burglarize
government offices and steal official documents surrendered
to authorities Thursday and were released without bail."
NEW YORK TIMES, 17 August 1978: "Justice Dept is attempting
to extradite, from GB, Jane Kember and Morris Budlong, 2 of
11 Church of Scientology members charged with breaking into
Govt offices, planting bugging devices and stealing official
documents. Notes 8 defendants in US have been issued
summonses to appear before Fed magistrate for bail hearing,
while church's 2nd-ranking official Mary Sue Hubbard, who
lives in Sussex (GB), has agreed to appear in court.
Indictment accuses church of plotting against Govt and
charges some defendants with lying to grand jury and
obstructing justice." (From NYT Abstracts)
CLEARWATER SUN, 17 August 1978: "Scientologists Never Change;
An editorial regarding the history of and recent indictment
of eleven church members."
NEW YORK TIMES, 18 August 1978: "9 of 11 officials and
members of Church of Scientology accused of stealing official
Government documents and eavesdropping on IRS surrender to
Washington (DC) Federal authorities and are released withou t
bail. Arraignment is set for Aug 29. Defendants in court are
Mary Sue Hubbard, wife of church's founder L Ron Hubbard.
Henning Heldt. Duke Snider. Richard Weigand. Gregory
Willardson. Mitchell Hermann. Cindy Raymond. Gerald Bennett
Wolfe, and Sharon Thomas. (From NYT Abstracts)
THE WASHINGTON POST, 18 August 1978: "HEADLINE: Matriarch
Surrenders; Scientologists' Matriarch Surrenders;
Scientologists Appear in Court"
NEWSWEEK, 28 August 1978: "Scientology in the Dock; It
started a little like Watergate. Late one night two years
ago, two men made their way to the third floor of the U.S.
courthouse in Washington. With stolen keys, they opened the
office of assistant U.S. attorney Nathan Dodell and
photocopied sheaves of government documents rifled from his
files. They repeated the caper a few nights later, but when
they showed up at the building again, a suspicious guard
called the FBI..."
AP, 29 August 1978: "Nine members of the Church of
Scientology pleaded innocent Tuesday to charges that include
stealing government documents and planting eavesdropping
devices in government offices."
NEW YORK TIMES, 30 August 1978: "Nine members of Church of
Scientology plead innocent to charges of stealing Federal
documents and planting eavsdropping devices in Federal
offices. US District Court Judge George L Hart rejects
defendants' claim that case involves issue of freedom of
religion. Gives defense until Nov 20 '78 to file pretrial
motions and prepare for complex case involving thousands of
Federal documents allegedly stolen by defendants and
subsequently seized by FBI in raids on church facilities in
Los Angeles and Washington in '77. Defendants are Mary Sue
Hubbard, Henning Heldt, Duke Snider, Mitchell Hermann, Cindy
Raymond, Richard Weigand, Gregory Willardson, Gerald B Wolfe
and Sharon Thomas. (From NYT Abstracts)
THE WASHINGTON POST, 30 August 1978: "HEADLINE: 9
Scientologists Plead Innocent; New Judge Asked BODY: Nine
members of the Church of Scientology pleaded innocent
yesterday to charges of conspiring to steal from the
government, and at the same time, lawyers for some of them
asked the judge assigned to the case to withdraw. ..."
ST. PETERSBURG TIMES, 30 August 1978: "Scientologists Plead
Innocent to US Charges; Nine leaders of the Church of
Scientology pleaded innocent to charges of bugging government
offices and stealing government documents."
Had enough yet? Want more? I've got more, but I believe even somebody
as
dense as you, Wartwhore, might be starting to somehow get some glimmer
of what was going on.
And so we come to September 1978. But we ~still~ can't quite get to
this
purported 15 September "letter from Ron" yet, Wartwhore. Events
leading
up to that have not yet played entirely out.
Because, you see, just as though God himself were writing the script,
it
was only ~days~ later, somewhere between 1 September and about 5
September 1978, that "L. Ron Hubbard" purportedly, ~allegedly~,
"collapsed in the desert," at the very door of death, while he was
purportedly--~allegedly~--ENTIRELY wrapped up in making amateur
fucking
FILMS with a bunch of wet-behind-the-ears hayseeds and pre-teens
running
around the desert with cans of spray paint and cardboard movie sets.
You see how this all makes sense, right? I mean, at least I'm sure it
does to you and your ilk, right?
Yes, this is the infamous incident in which David Mayo and Dr. Gene
Denk
(who had only recently been set up as President of Shaw Management
Group
by our good friend and soon-to-be Temple Beth Torah President, Sherman
Lenske) purportedly were both rushed out to the California desert in
blindfolds in a melodramtic attempt to save the very life of "L. Ron
Hubbard." (Propitiously, this provided David Mayo with the golden
opportunity to author NOTs, and also served to establish Denk as "L.
Ron
Hubbard's" "personal" physician, so Denk could later sign all the
right
papers and help rush the dead "Hubbard" body into a fiery furnace. But
all that's later.)
According to one of our cherished and unimpeachable <SPIT!> Bare-Faced
Messiah (BFM) "historians," it was on this august (actually
September--pun intended) occasion that "Hubbard" is purported to have
hoarsely whispered to Kima Douglas, "If I die, bury me under the date
palms."
And according to another of our cherished and unimpeachable <SPIT!>
BFM
"historians"--David Mayo himself--here is how the scene is set in the
unimpeachable <SPIT!> "Bare-Faced Messiah Interviews" (please ignore
the
cardboard sets and spray paint--but please carefully do NOT ignore my
*ALL CAPS WITH ASTERISKS* emphasis):
ÒHe [Hubbard] was ill *IN LATE '78, SEPTEMBER*, and I was
transferred to La Quinta when he was ill. ...I was in
Clearwater *IN SEPTEMBER '78* and I was told to go to La
Quinta. He was very ill. Dr [Eugene] Denk was there and
trying to find out what was wrong with him. He was very weak,
had low blood pressure, pulse rate, low temperature. He was
lying on his back in bed, *ALMOST IN A COMA FOR A WEEK OR
TWO*. He talked a little but not very much. He talked very
slowly and quietly. I didn't know what was wrong with him.
One of the things established was that he had blood
coagulation problem, but that wasn't why he was in bed. Denk
prescribed anti-coagulant for his blood but that was to
prevent a stroke. He was in a Spanish-style bungalow at La
Quinta. He had an office in his bungalow, it was on a
property with other buildings. Mary Sue was in LA in another
secret location.
"I was surprised and shocked at his condition. It was a telex
message addressed to CMO [Commodore's Messenger Org] that
transferred me, but gave almost no info. It was extremely
urgent and said it was important that I was to be put on the
next plane to LA. It was top secret. I didn't know what it
was for, how long it was for. So I grabbed a few clothes in
my suitcase, I had 20 minutes to get to the airport, and I
wasn't allowed to tell anyone I was going. I couldn't even
see my wife. People were supposed to pretend I hadn't gone
anywhere. In LA I was met at the airport by someone who knew
me. I got in the car at night, was driven to a parking lot
and switched cars - this happened 2-3 times in LA in case we
were being followed. Then in the last car I was blindfolded
and told that I wasn't allowed to know where we were going.
I'd asked everyone what it was about but they said they
didn't know. The last driver told me LRH was sick and that's
why I was there.
"I was given his PC [preclear] folders and told to solve it.
I started looking through folders and started auditing him
the next day and audited him from then on. Can auditing cure
illness? In the Scientological environment that existed in La
Quinta the answer would be 100% yes. For legal reasons the
answer was no. They deny it is intended as a physical cure,
whereas in the First Book [Dianetics: The Modern Science of
Mental Health, pub. 1950] Hubbard claimed it would cure
everything from diabetes to psychosomatic illness. Hubbard
considered the cause of illness to be some bad auditing he'd
had just prior, so the idea was to find out what had gone
wrong in the auditing and correct that - it would be a
spiritual cure. Denk said, when I arrived, that he thought he
was close to death; he didn't know whether to move him to
hospital. His concern was that the ride in ambulance would
finish him off. He was getting ready to restart his heart
with an electric-pulse thing and started moving some medical
equipment in there.
"The Messengers who were looking after him figured they had
to get an auditor there. Paulette Cohen had been auditing him
but he got dissatisfied and upset with her and wanted someone
else. They wanted to get Jeff Walker, and *I WAS SENIOR CASE
SUPERVISOR* [Senior C/S] at Flag and they didn't think they
could take me away. Jeff Walker started on the route but
Hubbard heard and said, 'no way, send Mayo,' so they sent me.
Walker arrived in LA and was on his way back by the time I
was on the way.
"Initially I gave him assist auditing to help him recover. We
had several short sessions a day *UNTIL HE RECOVERED ABOUT A
MONTH LATER*.Ó
--David Mayo
Well, gee. Here we are presented with a tableau of Mayo and Denk on
attendance with an "L. Ron Hubbard" that was in a such a delicate
state
of health that Denk purportedly believed that a simple ride to a
hospital might ~KILL~ the man--or so we are led to believe.
Of course this account conflicts with one or more of your other
precious
"sources" <SPIT!>--either Kima Douglas, Gerry "Grand Theft" Armstrong,
or the admitted perjurer Ron DeWolf. Because ~one~ of those three (not
expressly identified in the story) told the Riverside Press-Enterprise
that "Hubbard" Òwent to Gilman Hot Springs after being hospitalized in
Los Angeles in 1978Ó--as reported by both AP and UPI.
Regardless, we have Mayo--the Senior C/S--describing this "Hubbard" as
being "almost in a coma for a week or two," hooked up to Denk's
Traveling Medicine Show, and not really recovering until "about a
month
later."
And somewhere in there is 15 September 1978. It is an amazing day.
On this ONE red-letter day, this near-comatose door-of-death "L. Ron
Hubbard" is purported to have produced the following:
15-09-78 HCOB: NED for OTs RD, Theory of
15-09-78 HCOB: Why you can't run engrams after Clear
15-09-78 HCOB: Assists
15-09-78 HCOB: Cluster, Cumulative Cluster handling etc.
What a guy. What a trooper. (Of course, we have David Mayo's much-
later
confession that he, MAYO, wrote all the NOTs. Somehow he managed to
write all that in one day while also keeping "L. Ron Hubbard" from
dropping off into the arms of waiting coma or death. But we can't
pause
to wonder on that mystery because we're not done yet...)
Also on that SAME fateful day--15 September 1978--"L. Ron Hubbard"
purportedly penned ~this~ absolutely ~crucial~ gem:
FO 3729, also issued as ED 106 CMO, "Commodore's Messengers."
Jeeeeeeesus. This is ~only~ the "L. Ron Hubbard" document that
immediately transformed ALL "Commodore's Messengers" into little
Chucky-like teeny-bopper surrogate "L. Ron Hubbards" running around
striking absolute abject terror into the hearts of all and sundry.
That's right, Wartwhore: same fucking day, different comatose "L. Ron
Hubbard" output. Busy, busy, busy little death's-bed shit, wasn't he?
At around the same time, BTW, The ArmyÕs Intelligence and Security
Command (INSCOM) was busy setting up its own unit of military remote
viewers at Fort Meade, Maryland. Major General Edmund Thompson, the
ArmyÕs Assistant Chief of Staff for Intelligence, has been busy, busy,
busy himself encouraging the establishment of the unit, an extension
of
the covert CIA program at SRI being run by the Scientology OTs Hal
Puthoff and Ingo Swann. (Unfortunately, poor Pat Price had met an
early
and untimely demise in a hotel in Las Vegas by this time.) Anyway, the
extensive new Fort Meade installation was the part of a remote viewing
programme being managed at the time by the Defense Intelligence Agency
(DIA), codenamed GRILL FLAME. You probably don't want to know all
that,
but, frankly, I don't give a shit whether you do or not.
And ~now~, Wartwhore, with all of that proper context and framework,
let's look anew at that ~one more~ just ~vitally~ important epistle
that
a frail, sickly, near-comatose "Ron" purportedly managed, on that
fateful day, to raise up on one elbow and scrawl onto a grimy legal
pad,
or dictate into a pleghm-specked dictaphone mic--in the midst of ALL
of
this shit:
> 15 September 1978
>
> Andre Tabayoyon
> RPF WUS
>
> Dear Andre,
>
> Thank you very much for sending along your
> PROJECT ESTABLISH THE CADET RPF WUS. It appears
> good and I am sure that you have put it on the
> proper lines.
>
> I also appreciate hearing the progress you
> are making and the responsability you are taking.
> Very good, Andre.
>
> As you know, I am currently on the lines
> regarding the RPF as you have probably seen the
> recent HCOB DEFINITION OF A ROCK SLAM.
>
> I am sure the Senior C/S will be of assistance
> in helping you with the children on the RPF.
>
> Thank you for taking responsability.
>
> Love,
>
> [signature]
>
> RON
I wonder if he then turned that over to the very "Senior C/S" he
mentioned--David Mayo--who must have been sitting, with lines of dire
concern etched into his face, right next to "Ron's" sick-bed. Is that
how ~you~ envision it, Wartwhore?
And how about that "signature" you "cite," Warthore? Does it look like
the unsteady hand of a man in the state described by one of your
heroes,
Mayo? Or does it look like one of many, countless, strong and steady
forgeries of said "signature" that you ~KNOW~ fucking well were
cranked
out by the mail-pack load.
Oh, that's right: somehow you forgot to mention that little wrinkle
when
you posted this piece of shit "letter" from "Ron." Of course you can't
pretend you don't know about the many accounts--even from some of your
heroes--of such regular forgeries of letters on the "SO-1" line. I've
never seen you once challenge such accounts, either. And yet, somehow,
you overlooked mentioning this VERY relevant datum in your pitiable
attempt to use this "letter" in the most damaging way possible. Would
you like to contest the accounts of these forgeries NOW? Would you
like
me to post for you a compendium of these accounts and attestations of
such forgeries? Or would you like to take the initiative and attempt
to
recover any shredded thread of credibility out of this? Not that I
give
a flying fuck.
Because we're not even done. Not by a long shot. Because one the MOST
interesting parts of this isn't only the date and its context, but the
purported RECIPIENT, and his location at the time:
> Andre Tabayoyon
> RPF WUS
Fascinating. Do you know why it's so fascinating, Wartwhore? (It's a
rhetorical question; I care more about the thoughts of a rattlesnake
than what you think, asshole, but you are a fun foil for providing
actual facts against your pathetic bullshit.)
Andre Tabayoyon himself is a study in self-contradiction, and in more
proven lies than I care to list in this message (but will happily list
separately), and had a very curious facility for being in crucially
important positions at crucially important times.
For instance, here's a little trivia quiz for you:
Who are the only two people known to have styled themselves as having
been "butler" to L. Ron Hubbard?
Have you guessed? Are you ready for the answer? (Do I give a fuck?)
1) Ken Urquhart (created the RPF)
2) Andre Tabayoyon (was "on" the RPF for SIX FUCKING YEARS;
voluntarily
created the "Cadet RPF" after having been EXTENSIVELY trained at
taxpayer expense by the United States government in "brainwashing and
coercive persuasion techniques," then having personally been in
government-sponsored psychiatric treatment post-Vietnam--all according
to his OWN "affidavit" <SPIT!>)
Fascinating. What's even ~more~ interesting is ~when~ Tabayoyon
supposedly was "butler" for Hubbard. Apparently he succeeded Urquhart,
much as Robert Vaughn "Vacaville" Young succeeded Gerry "Grand Theft"
Armstrong--both lying motherfuckers--in the "Hubbard Archives" under
the
tutelage and control of the Lenske Bros. But there has to be a little
bit of foundation laid on--including some of Tabayoyon's own
self-contradictions--to even get there.
First, Tabayoyan claims in his own "affidavit" <SPIT!> that he was "a
member of the Sea Organization ('Sea Org')," which he says he "joined
in
1972." Unfortunately, he goes on to claim, in that same document, that
he "worked personally with Hubbard on the ship called the Apollo, from
1971-73," claiming that during that time he "served as both steward
and
butler for Hubbard." Maybe you can spot the contradiction, dimbulb. If
so, you can rush to come up with one of your fucking apologist
"explanations"--not that I give a shit.
But if you're going to attempt such a reconciliation, you've got more
shit to deal with, and not only from Tabayoyon himself, but from that
other golden liar, Gerry "Grand Theft" Armstrong. See, Armstrong, in a
write-up that YOU posted for him, Wartwhore, said this concerning a
time
frame right around April of 1971:
"Around the time that the TRC [Tours Reception Center,
Tangiers, Morocco] property was purchased Hubbard also
acquired (I think by purchase, but I can't say definitely) a
home for his residence in Tangiers. It was a very nice house,
called Villa Laure (sp?) I think, in a very nice neighborhood
a drive from TRC. Andre Tabayoyon would have a better memory
of Hubbard's Tangiers home as I was only there a few times
briefly. ...Paul Preston was the garrison mission I/C... ."
Remember the name "Paul Preston," Wartwhore? He's the fucking "former"
Green Beret (of whom there is currently no trace) who, along with male
nurse Jim Dincalci, would supposedly "accompany" L. Ron Hubbard on his
immortal 3 December 1972 flight from Spain to New York, where Hubbard
was "detained" for some time, reportedly, by Immigration officials.
Fascinating. So here we have Tabayoyan: a "former" covert Marine
operative who has been extensively trained in "brainwashing and
coercive
persuasion techniques," AND who has been under military psychiatric
hospital care, SOMEHOW qualifying to become something as high-security
as L. Ron Hubbard's "butler"--and ~before~ Tabayoyon reportedly even
joined the Sea Org!
But that's not all! As luck would have it, right there on the scene in
Tangiers with Tabayoyan was yet ~another~ "former" covert military
operative, Paul Preston, somehow, with that background, ~also~ having
gotten right up-close-and-personal with Hubbard and his family--who
soon
becomes instrumental in Hubbard disappearing for ten fucking months,
purportedly somewhere in New York.
And of course right after this ten-month disappearance is when
"Hubbard"
returns to the Apollo, only to allegedly spill his motorcycle on
Tenarife, and to subsequently be confined incommunicado in a ship
cabin
for months, while ~some~-fucking-body (we still don't know who)
creates
"Board Technical Bulletins" and "Board Policy Letters" (which in 1978
will be used for covering the secret transfer of the copyrights) at
almost the ~precise~ same time that former "butler" to L. Ron Hubbard,
Ken Urquhart, creates the fucking RPF.
Fascinating how conveniently it all worked out, isn't it?
And fascinating how these SAME few people who intimately surrounded
Hubbard at crucial times--immediately preceding, during, and at all
relevant time after his ten-month disappearance (after which he never
gave another single public lecture)--are the SAME people who we have
to
rely on entirely--mostly in BFM, but also in numerous media stories
and
in "affidavits" <SPIT!>--for ALL the anecdotal accounts of "Hubbard's"
whereabouts and doings from his initial 3 December 1972 disappearance
until his reported death in January 1986.
Fascinating.
Equally fascinating is the other people, along with the perjuring
Tabayoyan, who were tapped by Graham Berry to provide "affidavits"
<SPIT!> in the Fishman/Geertz case. Of course there's admitted
perjurer
Stacy Brooks Young--who demonstrably was in bed with the Lenske boys
and
Meade Emory during the crucial period when all the "new" corporations
were created--and her cohort, lying motherfucker Robert Vaughn
"Vacaville" Young, who has repeatedly been caught and exposed in
documented bare-faced lies in his sworn "testimony" and declarations.
I've barely scratched the surface on Tabayoyon. There's more. Much
more.
But I thought, Wartwhore, that you might enjoy learning that this
altruistic hero of yours, who just happened to somehow become
practically a lifer on RPF, and who just happened to volunteer to
create
an RPF for children, had been extensively trained (using yo' momma's
tax
dollars) by military intelligence specialists of the United States
federal government in "brainwashing and coercive persuasion
techniques."
For your further reading, twit, allow me to recommend items from the
CIA's very own "preferred reading" list describing the techniques that
your fucking hero, Tabayoyon, was extensively trained in. Strap in,
motherfucker. First, as a warm up only, there's this:
15 August 1955, "A REPORT ON COMMUNIST BRAINWASHING,"
submitted to FBI by CIA Director Allen W. Dulles
Then the following, all recommended and discussed in the bibliography
of
a declassified CIA document, "KUBARK [Codename for CIA]
COUNTERINTELLIGENCE INTERROGATION--July 1963.Ó Pack a fucking lunch,
asshole:
U. S. Army, Counterintelligence Corps, Fort Holabird,
ÒInterrogations,Ó Restricted, 5 September 1952. ÒBasic
coverage of military interrogation. Among the subjects
discussed are the interrogation of witnesses, suspects,
POW's, and refugees, and the employment of interpreters and
of the polygraph. Although this text does not concentrate
upon the basic problems confronting KUBARK interrogators, it
will repay reading.Ó
Oatis, William N. "Why I Confessed," Life , 21 September
1953, Vol. 35. "Of some marginal value [to CIA interrogators]
because it combines the writer's profession of innocence (ÔI
am not a spy and never wasÕ) with an account of how he was
brought to ÔconfessÕ to espionage within three days of his
arrest. Although Oatis was periodically deprived of sleep
(once for 42 hours) and forced to stand until weary, the
Czechs obtained the ÔconfessionsÕ without torture or
starvation and without sophisticated techniques."
Sullivan, Harry Stack, ÒThe Psychiatric InterviewÓ, W. W.
Norton and Co., New York, 1954. ÒAny [CIA] interrogator
reading this book will be struck by parallels between the
psychiatric interview and the interrogation. The book is also
valuable because the author, a psychiatrist of considerable
repute, obviously had a deep understanding of the nature of
the inter-personal relationship and of resistance.Ó
Moloney, James Clark, "Psychic Self-Abandon and Extortion of
Confessions," International Journal of Psychoanalysis,
January/February 1955, Vol. 36. ÒThis short article relates
the psychological release obtained through confession (i.e.,
the sense of well-being following surrender as a solution to
an otherwise conflict) with religious experience generally
and some zen Buddhistic practices particularly. The [CIA]
interrogator will find little here that is not more helpfully
discussed in other sources, including Gill and Brenman's
Hypnosis and Related States. Marginal.Ó
Biderman, Albert D., ÒSocial Psychological Needs and
ÔInvoluntaryÕ Behavior as Illustrated by Compliance in
Interrogation.Ó Sociometry , June 1960, Vol. 23. "This
interesting article is directly relevant [for CIA
interrogators]. It provides a useful insight into the
interaction between interrogator and interrogatee. It should
be compared with Melton W. Horowitz's ÔPsychology of
Confession.Õ"
U. S. Army, The Army Intelligence School, Fort Holabird,
Techniques of Interrogation, Instructors Folder I-6437/A,
January 1956. ÒThis folder consists largely of an article,
'Without Torture,' by a German ex-interrogator, Hans Joachim
Scharff. Both the preliminary discussion and the Scharff
article (first published in Argosy, May 1950) are exclusively
concerned with the interrogation of POW's. Although Scharff
claims that the methods used by German Military Intelligence
against captured U.S. Air Force personnel Ô...were almost
irresistible;Õ the basic technique consisted of impressing
upon the prisoner the false conviction that his information
was already known to the Germans in full detail. The success
of this method depends upon circumstances that are usually
lacking in the peacetime interrogation of a staff or agent
member of a hostile intelligence service. The article merits
reading [by CIA interrogators], nevertheless, because it
shows vividly the advantages that result from good planning
and organization.Ó
KUBARK (KUSODA) [unknown designation--Ed.], "Communist
Control Techniques,Ó Secret, 2 April 1956 ÒThis study is an
analysis of the methods used by Communist State police in the
arrest, interrogation, and indoctrination of persons regarded
as enemies of the state. This paper, like others which deal
with Communist interrogation techniques, may be useful to any
KUBARK interrogator charged with questioning a former member
of an Orbit intelligence or security service but does not
deal with interrogation conducted without police powers.Ó
KUBARK, "Communist Control Methods, Appendix 1: 'The Use of
Scientific Design and Guidance Drugs and Hypnosis in
Communist Interrogation and Indoctrination Procedures.'
Secret, no date. [NOTE: Although this entry is listed as Òno
date,Ó it is being placed at the date of a similar CIA
report, ÒCommunist Control Techniques,Ó 2 April 1956, until
furtherr date information can be established.--Ed.] ÒThe
appendix reports a study of whether Communist interrogation
methods included such aids as hypnosis and drugs. Although
experimentation in these areas is, of course, conducted in
Communist countries, the study found no evidence that such
methods are used in Communist interrogations--or that they
would be necessary.Ó
KUBARK, "Hostile Control and Interrogation TechniquesÓ
Secret, undated. [NOTE: Although this entry is listed as
Òundated,Ó it is being placed at the date of a similar CIA
report, ÒCommunist Control Techniques,Ó 2 April 1956, until
furtherr date information can be established.--Ed.] ÒThis
paper consists of 28 pages and two annexes. It provides
counsel to KUBARK personnel on how to resist interrogation
conducted by a hostile service. Although it includes advice
on resistance, it does not present any new information about
the theories or practices of interrogation.Ó
Hinkle, Lawrence E. Jr. and Harold G. Wolff, "Communist
Interrogation and Indoctrination of Enemies of the State",
AMA Archives of Neurology and Psychiatry , August 1956, Vol.
76, No. 2. ÒThis article summarizes the physiological and
psychological reactions of American prisoners to Communist
detention and interrogation. It merits reading but not study,
chiefly because of the vast differences between Communist
interrogation of American POW's and KUBARK interrogation of
known or suspected personnel of Communist services or
parties.Ó
Biderman, Albert D., ÒCommunist Attempts to Elicit False
Confession from Air Force Prisoners of War,Ó Bulletin of the
New York Academy of Medicine, September 1957, Vol. 33. "An
excellent analysis [for CIA interrogators] of the
psychological pressures applied by Chinese Communists to
American POW's to extract Ôconfessions" for propaganda
purposes.Õ"
Lefton, Robert Jay, "Chinese Communist 'Thought Reform':
Confession and Reeducation of Western Civilians," Bulletin of
the New York Academy of Medicine, September 1957, Vol. 33. ÒA
sound article about Chicom brainwashing techniques. The
information was compiled from first-hand interviews with
prisoners who had been subjected to the process. Recommended
as background reading [for CIA interrogators].Ó
U.S. Army, 7707 European Command Intelligence Center, Guide
for Intelligence Interrogators of Eastern Cases, Secret,
April 1958. ÒThis specialized study is of some marginal value
for KUBARK [Codename for CIA--Ed.] interrogators dealing with
Russians and other Slavs.Ó
Singer, Margaret Thaler and Edgar H. Schein, "Projective Test
Responses of Prisoners of War Following Repatriation."
Psychiatry , 1958, Vol. 21. ÒTests conducted on American
ex-POW's returned during the Big and Little Switches in Korea
showed differences in characteristics between
non-collaborators and corroborators. The latter showed more
typical and humanly responsive reactions to psychological
testing than the former, who tended to be more apathetic and
emotionally barren or withdrawn. Active resisters, however,
often showed a pattern of reaction or responsiveness like
that of collaborators. Rorschach tests provided clues, with a
good statistical incidence of reliability, for
differentiation between collaborators and non-collaborators.
The tests and results described are worth noting [for CIA
interrogators] in conjunction with the screening procedures
recommended in this paper.Ó [NOTE: Date is estimated at
middle of year, as only year is given.]
Biderman, Albert D., A Study for Development of Improved
Interrogation Techniques : Study SR 177-D (U), Secret, final
report of Contract AS 18 (600) 1797, Bureau of Social Science
Research Inc., Washington, D. C., March 1959. "Although this
book (207 pages of text) is principally concerned with
lessons derived from the interrogation of American POW's by
Communist services and with the problem of resisting
interrogation, it also deals with the interrogation of
resistant subjects. It has the added advantage of
incorporating the findings and views of a number of scholars
and specialists in subjects closely related to interrogation.
As the frequency of citation indicates, this book was one of
the most useful works consulted; few KUBARK interrogators
would fail to profit from reading it. It also contains a
descriminating but undescribed bibliography of 343 items.Ó
Comprehensive Bibliography of Interrogation Techniques,
Procedures, and Experiences,Ó Air Intelligence Information
Report, Unclassified, 10 June 1959. ÒThis bibliography of 158
items dating between 1915 and 1957 comprises Ôthe monographs
on this subject available in the Library of Congress and
arranged in alphabetical order by author, or in the absence
of an author, by title.Õ No descriptions are included, except
for explanatory sub-titles. The monographs, in several
languages, are not categorized. This collection is extremely
heterogeneous. Most of the items are of scant or peripheral
value to the [CIA] interrogator.Ó
Gill, Merton, Inc., and Margaret Brenman, "Hypnosis and
Related States: Psychoanalytic Studies in Regression,"
International Universities Press Inc., New York, 1959. ÒThis
book is a scholarly and comprehensive examination of
hypnosis. The approach is basically Freudian but the authors
are neither narrow nor doctrinaire. The book discusses the
induction of hypnosis, the hypnotic state, theories of
induction and of the hypnotic condition, the concept of
regression as a basic element in hypnosis, relationships
between hypnosis and drugs, sleep, fugue, etc., and the use
of hypnosis in psychotherapy. Interrogators may find the
comparison between hypnosis and ÔbrainwashingÕ in chapter 9
more relevant than other parts. The book is recommended [for
CIA interrogators], however, not because it contains any
discussion of the employment of hypnosis in interrogation (it
does not) but because it provides the interrogator with sound
information about what hypnosis can and cannot do.Ó
Interrogation Methods and Techniques,Ó KUPALM, L-3, 024, 941,
July 1959, Secret/NOFORN. ÒThis bibliography of 114 items
includes references to four categories: books and pamphlets,
articles from periodicals, classified documents, and
materials from classified periodicals. No descriptions
(except sub-titles) are included. The range is broad, so that
a number of nearly-irrelevant [for CIA interrogators] titles
are includedÓ
Brainwashing, A Guide to the Literature,Ó prepared by the
Society for the Investigation of Human Ecology, Inc., Forest
Hills, New York, December 1960. ÒA wide variety of materials
is represented: scholarly and scientific reports,
governmental and organizational reports, legal discussions,
biographical accounts, fiction, journalism, and miscellaneous
[for CIA interrogators].Ó
Biderman, Albert D. and Herbert Zimmer, "The Manipulation of
Human Behavior," John Wiley and Sons Inc., New York and
London, 1961. ÒThis book of 304 pages consists of an
introduction by the editors and seven chapters by the
following specialists: Dr. Lawrence E. Hinkle Jr., 'The
Physiological State of the Interrogation Subject as it
Affects Brain Function;' Dr. Philip E. Kubzansky, 'The
Effects of Reduced Environmental Stimulation on Human
Behavior: A Review;' Dr. Louis A. Gottschalk, 'The Use of
Drugs in Interrogation;' Dr. R. C. Davis, 'Physiological
Responses as a Means of Evaluating Information' (this chapter
deals with the polygraph); Dr. Martin T. Orne, 'The Potential
Uses of Hypnosis In Interrogation;' Drs. Robert R. Blake and
Jane S. Mouton, 'The Experimental Investigation of
Interpersonal Influence;' and Dr. Malcolm L. Meltzer,
'Countermanipulation through Malingering.' Despite the
editors preliminary announcement that the book has 'a
particular frame of reference; the interrogation of an
unwilling subject,' the stress is on the listed psychological
specialties; and interrogation gets comparitively short
shrift. Nevertheless, the KUBARK [Codename for CIA--Ed.]
interrogator should read this book, especially the chapters
by Drs. Orne and Meltzer. He will find that the book is by
scientists for scientists and that the contributions
consistently demonstrate too theoretical an understanding of
interrogation per se. He will also find that practically no
valid experimentation the results of which were unclassified
and available to the authors has been conducted under
interrogation conditions. Conclusions are suggested, almost
invariably, on a basis of extrapolation. But the book does
contain much useful information, as frequent references in
this study show. The combined bibliographies contain a total
of 771 items.Ó
ÒKUBARK COUNTERINTELLIGENCE INTERROGATION--July 1963Ó The
manual [redacted version declassified in 1996] discusses
drugs, hypnosis, and torture as methods for extracting
information from resistive interogattees.
Finally, for your reading enjoyment, dipshit, there's A 1963 CIA
Inspector General (IG) report of interest stating that MKULTRA is a
program "concerned with research and development of chemical,
biological, and radiological materials capable of employment in
clandestine operations to control human behavior." The IG report
states
that "additional avenues to the control of human behavior had been
designated...as appropriate to investigation under the MKULTRA
charter,
including radiation, electroshock, various fields of psychology,
sociology, and anthropology, graphology, harassment substances, and
paramilitary devices and materials." The program as described (and
supported by other CIA documents) includes unwitting experimentation
on
humans with LSD (lysergic acid diethylamide), brainwashing, and
"other"
interrogation methods.
Have fun. If you actually were intelligent enough to do some study of
the facts, you'd start to get ~some~ ~vague~ inkling of where the
crushing terror and oppression that was entirely built into the very
fabric of the RPF by Urquhart and his associates ~actually~
originated,
and you'd know with absolute certainty that it had NOTHING to do with
L.
Ron Hubbard or Scientology, ever, at all. Not for a fucking minute.
But then that would shake your fucking religion of hate to the roots,
wouldn't it, Gourd Rattler? You might pop a vein like a geyser. And
wouldn't that be a fucking loss to humanity.
CL
==================================SIG==================================
The so-called "A.R.S. Week In Review" is a white-washed propaganda rag
whose excuse for an "editor"--Rod Keller--uses extreme socio-political
censorship to hide important material facts from anyone relying on it.
Keller is in a deep state of denial on the existence and power of the
corporation known as "Church of Spiritual Technology" (CST--doing
business as the "L. Ron Hubbard Library"), and the three tax lawyers
who
control it: Sherman Lenske, Stephen Lenske, and Lawrence E. Heller.
CST
is the owner of all Scientology-related intellectual property, and is
the senior and most powerful corporation in all of Scientology. Keller
"sanitizes" his publication, keeping out of it of all mention of CST
and
the non-Scientologist attorneys running it. Anyone in pursuit or
support
of truth and integrity should boycott "A.R.S. Week in Review." Read
the
newsgroup alt.religion.scientology for yourself and learn the truth.
=======================================================================
"In Wollersheim's case, make that lying, millionaire, winner scumbag."
--Michael Reuss, Honorary Kid
=======================================================================
"Your latest 'post' was longer than two paragraphs, so I didn't read
it."
--booboo...@webtv.net (Tigger)
=======================================================================
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Thread
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http://www.gerryarmstrong.org/50grand/cult/usenet/ars-cl-2003-01-12.html
AnoNotAmused
> Death on psych drugs coroner reporthttp://home.earthlink.net/~snefru/deathoflrh/
> Described as a "paranoid schizophrenic" by ex-wifehttp://home.kvalito.no/~xenu/archive/books/apobs/bs3-2.htm
> Described as a "paranoid, schizophrenic megalomaniac" by his own sonhttp://www.primenet.com/~lippard/bfm/bfm22.htm
> Described as "schizophrenic and paranoid" by judgehttp://www.lermanet.com/cos/morejud.html
> Convicted of fraud and sentenced to four years in prisonhttp://www.lermanet.com/cos/LRHfraud.html
>
> Then we have L. Ron Hubbard's third wife Mary Sue Hubbard, who was
> convicted of
> felonies and served jail time for helping her husband mastermind the
> biggest
> domestic espionage case in American history, involving burglarizing
> government
> offices routinely and committing other crimes. Even her own lawyers
> admitted
> that she had committed these crimes, as well as 11 other
> Scientologists who
> were convicted of crimes including felonies.
>
> Sentencing memorandum describing crimes as "heinous and vicious"http://members.tripod.com/cic_ops/posts/court.txt
> Stipulation of evidence admitting to multiple felonies by Hubbard and
> other
>
> Next comes the President of the cult he founded, Heber Jentzsch, who
> is
> currently out on a million dollars bail for criminal charges in
> Spain. A
> habitual liar, who constantly claims that his cult has eight million
> members,
> this criminal can be seen in handcuffs all around the net.
>
> Photos of Heber Jentzsch in handcuffshttp://home.kvalito.no/~xenu/archive/photoalbum/spain.html
>
> The cult is led by high-school dropout David Miscavige, who when he
> has
> been forced to be deposed in court concerning his criminal activities,
> has
> exposed his sexual perversions by exploding in a bizarre outburst
> about
> public buggery
>
>
> Former French President of the Cult Jean-Jacques Mazier has even been
> convicted of homicide in the death of Patrice Vic
>
> French Scientology cult leader convicted of homicide:http://www.rickross.com/reference/Art54.html
>
> In fact, this criminal cult is so criminal that even the cult itself,
> rather
> than its own members, has been criminally convicted in Canada for
> breach of
> the public trust
>
>
> Ths cult lies so much and so often that it regularly loses libel
> cases.
> It has lost the largest libel judgment in Canadian history, and was
> recently
> forced to issue an apology in open court for libelling a critic of its
> criminal
> activities, Bonnie Wood
>
> Scientology forced to apologize for libelhttp://www.shellac.freeserve.co.uk/reports/all.html
>
> One wonders what sort of criminal element would have anything to do
> with
> such a criminal cult, with such an extensive history of criminal
> convictions
> at every level in the organization, and with a history of crimes
> ranging
> from the broad spectrum of sexual perversion, drug abuse, petty theft,
> fraud and even homicide. Certainly, only a criminal would have
> anything
> to do with such a virulent and heinous crime cult.
>
> ptsc
>
> ==
>
> >Here's a letter from Ron to former Sea Org member Andre Tabayoyon.
>
> ~Was~ it a letter "from Ron," Wartwhore? That would really be the crux
> of the matter, now, wouldn't it. Again, you make a declarative
> assertion
> that not only is without substantive and verifiable foundation, but,
> in
> fact, has many very pertinent facts in the balance weighing ~against~
> it
> actually being "from Ron," at least some of which facts I ~know~ that
> YOU ~know~. And so you intentionally withheld them, didn't you, you
> coy
> little hanging turd, you?
>
> Now, before getting to a recitation of those facts, the prudent and
> unbiased and impartial observer needfully asks: ~why~ would such a
> prissy little holier-than-thou shitstain like you ~do~ such a patently
> and willfully dishonest thing?
>
> Of course, you ~did~ manage to get a knee-jerk sputtering paroxysm out
>
> read more »
Well that was pleasantly Enturbulating. It is so nice to see ex's come
out of the closet and begin to say "enough is enough people, this was
a bad idea that wasn't supposed to happen and here is why." 8/10nar
jerald
> Wife-beating and drug abusehttp://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/wakefield/us-02.html
> Death on psych drugs coroner reporthttp://home.earthlink.net/~snefru/deathoflrh/
> Described as a "paranoid schizophrenic" by ex-wifehttp://home.kvalito.no/~xenu/archive/books/apobs/bs3-2.htm
> Described as a "paranoid, schizophrenic megalomaniac" by his own sonhttp://www.primenet.com/~lippard/bfm/bfm22.htm
> Described as "schizophrenic and paranoid" by judgehttp://www.lermanet.com/cos/morejud.html
> Convicted of fraud and sentenced to four years in prisonhttp://www.lermanet.com/cos/LRHfraud.html
>
> Then we have L. Ron Hubbard's third wife Mary Sue Hubbard, who was
> convicted of
> felonies and served jail time for helping her husband mastermind the
> biggest
> domestic espionage case in American history, involving burglarizing
> government
> offices routinely and committing other crimes. Even her own lawyers
> admitted
> that she had committed these crimes, as well as 11 other
> Scientologists who
> were convicted of crimes including felonies.
>
> Sentencing memorandum describing crimes as "heinous and vicious"http://members.tripod.com/cic_ops/posts/court.txt
> Stipulation of evidence admitting to multiple felonies by Hubbard and
> other
>
> Next comes the President of the cult he founded, Heber Jentzsch, who
> is
> currently out on a million dollars bail for criminal charges in
> Spain. A
> habitual liar, who constantly claims that his cult has eight million
> members,
> this criminal can be seen in handcuffs all around the net.
>
> Photos of Heber Jentzsch in handcuffshttp://home.kvalito.no/~xenu/archive/photoalbum/spain.html
>
> The cult is led by high-school dropout David Miscavige, who when he
> has
> been forced to be deposed in court concerning his criminal activities,
> has
> exposed his sexual perversions by exploding in a bizarre outburst
> about
> public buggery
>
>
> Former French President of the Cult Jean-Jacques Mazier has even been
> convicted of homicide in the death of Patrice Vic
>
> French Scientology cult leader convicted of homicide:http://www.rickross.com/reference/Art54.html
>
> In fact, this criminal cult is so criminal that even the cult itself,
> rather
> than its own members, has been criminally convicted in Canada for
> breach of
> the public trust
>
>
> Ths cult lies so much and so often that it regularly loses libel
> cases.
> It has lost the largest libel judgment in Canadian history, and was
> recently
> forced to issue an apology in open court for libelling a critic of its
> criminal
> activities, Bonnie Wood
>
> Scientology forced to apologize for libelhttp://www.shellac.freeserve.co.uk/reports/all.html
>
> One wonders what sort of criminal element would have anything to do
> with
> such a criminal cult, with such an extensive history of criminal
> convictions
> at every level in the organization, and with a history of crimes
> ranging
> from the broad spectrum of sexual perversion, drug abuse, petty theft,
> fraud and even homicide. Certainly, only a criminal would have
> anything
> to do with such a virulent and heinous crime cult.
>
> ptsc
>
> ==
>
> =======================================================================
>
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>
> § Legal Archive || Wog Media || Cult Media || CoW ® || Writings || Fun
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> http://www.gerryarmstrong.org/50grand/cult/usenet/ars-cl-2003-01-12.html
Goodness Maureen,
This was so long I started thinking Ted wrote it. :)
But it's worth the time to read so I hope everyone does.
jerald
Out_Of_The_Dark
jerald
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
I was teaseing about the long posts Ted Mayett does from time to time
Mary. :)
jerald
Beth
I've always wondered the same thing....
Beth
Ball of Fluff
"Beth" <moont...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:9a053f74-5afe-427d...@c58g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
Hey, Smurf and Beth,
I never have bought the eeevil Patricia Greenway thing. I know there've been
differences of opinion and a split amongst critics there for a number of
reasons, due to a number of events but in the long run, all critics are
against CofS. Patricia's done a lot of good work.
She used to post here and stopped. It appears that she asked a couple people
to post just a few things here for her but I hardly find that the crime of
the century. Now, we've got people all over a.r.s. and OCMB accusing her of
masterminding all kinds of evil plots. It's like she's become a scapegoat.
People who don't like the #altreligionscientology IRC channel and who don't
even go there have written a number of posts accusing her of running the
channel, doing things to people there, etc. Hell, she's rarely even on that
channel.
There are a number of us who have very different ideas as to how to go about
doing things and how certain things should have been done. But that's no
reason to paint someone as a murderer and grand conspirator. Why not just
say that one disagrees with the person or even that they think the person
has done (giving specifics ALWAYS) certain things and what the problem with
those things are? Instead, we get her named as The Great Satan at every
turn.
C
Smurf
wrote:
> "Beth" <moontac...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
Emma
"Tigger" <Tiggeri...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:dfcca827-b59a-4c72...@a2g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 10, 6:30 pm, Out_Of_The_Dark <xscilentolog...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Aug 10, 3:09 pm, cultxpt <cult...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
LOL....Emma's truth may be true for Emma......but is it the whole
truth? You forgot to fetch and carry Patty's post which you and/or
Ladybird posted on Lerma's message board. Emma apparently is under
the control of ROAN, (the OCMB moderaor who just caused a major
shitstorm on OCMB because of all his "selective" deletions.) Poor
Emma. I feel sorry for her. Roan ended a great friendship between
Patty and Emma and he just got some ANONS hopping mad.
>
>
___________________________________
Wow Tigger, you've been back for 2 weeks and have everything all worked out.
Seeing you missed the whole shitstorm on ars regarding Patty & me I'm
guessing your getting the "correct" version of events from Patty.
Roan does not control me. Nobody controls me. According to Patty, Roan is an
OSA OP who has me under some sort of spell. And she has the audacity to call
Lerma a loon.
Roan & I became friends and mended a good many bridges along the way. Patty
decided to invent her OSA OP story and betrayed some very personal
confidences publically. Despite every evidence to the contrary, Patty HAS to
maintain her opinion of Roan being "OSA" to make herself right for jumping
to the wrong conclusions about me and betraying confidences. To admit she is
wrong is to face up to an ugly truth.
If you were to look harder Tigger, you'd find that Roan got on the wrong
side of PG by posting some challenging posts on her Profit message board.
This immediately put him in PGs gunsights and Patty P started attacking him
and withdrawing from me. Patty has nothing personal to judge Roan on, only
the orders of PG. And don't try to pretend to me that you haven't posted on
behalf of Patricia. I know you have because I still have the emails.
As for Roan ending a friendship - Is that the story you bought? Roan didn't
betray my confidences. Roan didn't make up stuff and publish it all over
ars. Roan didn't try to destroy my reputation and my messageboard on ars.
Roan wasn't my closet friend when this happened either, Patty was.. Patty
didn't once talk to me about her suspicions or her concerns, instead went on
one of her hormonal rants, added 2 + 2 and got 5 and didn't think twice
about the ramifications.
Roan may be a dick, and a hopeless moderator depending on your viewpoint,
but he's human like everyone else and makes mistakes. But NOTHING he has
ever done, or could ever do would compare with what Patty did. Not in my
eyes anyway.
And as for you "poor Emma" you can take your pity and shove it up your ass.
You have no idea what actually went on and what the situation is today. If
you must know I'm happily in a relationship with an Aussie guy who
(thankfully) has no Scn history and isn't likely to ever be subjected to
this kind of crap. I run ESMB, hardly ever read ars or OCMB and severly
restrict my online relationships, male or female. I learned the hard way.
Nec_V20
> recovery from Scientology takes longer than reovery from any other
> cult. Some time (depending how long a person was in the cult) is
> NEEDED to recover from the dmage done by totalitarian mind control
> groups. It takes time to get rid of the cult group think and think
> for yourself.
>
> ICSA (formerly American Family Foundation) has help for ex cult
> members and their families. Tory and any other ex or thinking to
> become an ex would be smart to check out ReFOCUS and get the help they
> need to get their lives and MINDS back on the right tract. They fneed
> to find out why they joined the "group", why they stayed so long and
> why it was so hard to leave and return to thinking for themselves.
> It would be TIME WELL SPENT and they can always come back and become a
> critic and/or an activist if that's what THEY
> decide they want to do.
>
> Giambalvo, Carol: "Post-Cult Problems: An Exit Counselor's
> Perspective"
> http://www.icsahome.com/infoserv_articles/ryan_patrick_affnews12.html
>
> Tigger
> **********************************************************
> "What you don't see with your eyes, don't invent with your mouth"
>
> *********************************************************
Tigger,
although there is a lot which is interesting in the article, there is
one major issue that is not addressed. That is that many who have left
a cult - for whatever reason - just cannot afford medical help or
attention.
One example which I find egregious is what is on offer to alcoholics.
Oh yes, join the local chapter of the AA. If you take a look at the AA
it is nothing more than a religious cult.
Here are the 12 steps of AA:
QUOTE
Step 1: Honesty
After many years of denial, recovery can begin when with one simple
admission of being powerless over alcohol -- for alcoholics and their
friends and family.
Step 2: Faith
It seems to be a spiritual truth, that before a higher power can begin
to operate, you must first believe that it can.
Step 3: Surrender
A lifetime of self-will run riot can come to a screeching halt, and
change forever, by making a simple decision to turn it all over to a
higher power.
Step 4: Soul Searching
There is a saying in the 12-step programs that recovery is a process,
not an event. The same can be said for this step -- more will surely
be revealed.
Step 5: Integrity
Probably the most difficult of all the steps to face, Step 5 is also
the one that provides the greatest opportunity for growth.
Step 6: Acceptance
The key to Step 6 is acceptance -- accepting character defects exactly
as they are and becoming entirely willing to let them go.
Step 7: Humility
The spiritual focus of Step 7 is humility, asking a higher power to do
something that cannot be done by self-will or mere determination.
Step 8: Willingness
Making a list of those harmed before coming into recovery may sound
simple. Becoming willing to actually make those amends is the
difficult part.
Step 9: Forgiveness
Making amends may seem like a bitter pill to swallow, but for those
serious about recovery it can be great medicine for the spirit and
soul.
Step 10: Maintenance
Nobody likes to admit to being wrong. But it is absolutely necessary
to maintain spiritual progress in recovery.
Step 11: Making Contact
The purpose of Step 11 is to discover the plan God as you understand
Him has for your life.
Step 12: Service
For those in recovery programs, practicing Step 12 is simply "how it
works."
UNQUOTE
To me this just reads like swapping one kind of dependency for
another. It could even be a blueprint for how Scientology works - just
swap out the mention of God and insert L. Ron Hubbard.
One thing missing from the article is the fact that someone who has
left a cult or had any other kind of traumatic experience will quite
naturally seemingly "get over it". That is a well known phenomena
called "Regression towards the middle". This happens irrespective of
what intervention has been practised on the individual.
This is the point where most interventions will claim a "success". The
person will be declared "On their way to recovery". Unfortunately this
is the worst time for the individual because this is the time where
they will start looking back and are in danger of succumbing to self-
loathing and potentially suicide, or going to the other extreme.
The intervention should be on a continuous basis, but most victims
cannot afford professional help and secular professionals just do not
get the funding to be able to provide the counselling and/or other
rehabilitative help the individual may require in the US.
Also given the financial situation of many people leaving, being
expelled from or otherwise having been alienated by one group might
not be too happy with having to join another group. Even if that is an
interest group ostensibly dealing with their "issues". On the other
hand, good luck trying to get affordable health insurance coverage to
pay for secular unpartisan advice on an individual level in the US.
Social Services in the US have been gutted, and many who may need
simple practical help i.e. to write a CV just cannot receive it
because they have to sign on for a waiting list encompassing months.
Eldon
> Smurf <Miscavige.Sucks.D...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >rather than try to become acclimated to the outside world, they return
> >to the way of life they were used to, whether it made them happy or
> >not.
>
> Lot's of times there's another group of predators ready to use them in
> their personal crusade. Minton was such a man.
I think 'predator' is the wrong term. My impression was more like a
hothead (possibly bipolar) who drank a bit too much. My impression was
also that Stacy dumped Vaughn and latched onto Bob for obvious reasons
(like his money), and then proceeded to seriously manipulate him. I
heard that she tried to sabotage "The Profit" for some unknown reason
-- maybe just because she hated Patricia's guts.
I recall that Stacy once said she spent a week or so at Wellspring to
deprogram, but I don't think it was enough to do much good. Not taking
sides here except to say that Tracy was quite concerned about
appearing to be an expert and maintaining control.
>
> He sucked too many exes who need recovery into his ridiculous,
> confrontational plan simply to inflate his own sense of importance.
>
> Epeen it's called now?
>
> D
>
> ------------------
>
> "Here I sit so patiently,
> Waiting to find out what price
> You have to pay to get out of
> Going though all these things twice." - B Dylan
Tigger
> On Aug 10, 7:24 pm, Rev Dennis L Erlich <infor...@informer.org> wrote:
>
> > Smurf <Miscavige.Sucks.D...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >rather than try to become acclimated to the outside world, they return
> > >to the way of life they were used to, whether it made them happy or
> > >not.
>
> > Lot's of times there's another group of predators ready to use them in
> > their personal crusade. Minton was such a man.
>
> I think 'predator' is the wrong term. My impression was more like a
> hothead (possibly bipolar) who drank a bit too much. My impression was
> also that Stacy dumped Vaughn and latched onto Bob for obvious reasons
> (like his money), and then proceeded to seriously manipulate him. I
> heard that she tried to sabotage "The Profit" for some unknown reason
> -- maybe just because she hated Patricia's guts.
>
> I recall that Stacy once said she spent a week or so at Wellspring to
> deprogram, but I don't think it was enough to do much good. Not taking
> sides here except to say that Tracy was quite concerned about
> appearing to be an expert and maintaining control.
>
>
This person also said that ICSA (formerly American Family Foundation)
did not welcome Minton with open arms like the
group who emerged from the OLD CAN did........ which gave Minton the
Leo J. Ryan award and ICSA/AFF were very glad it didn't.
And before anyone starts yelling Patricia Greenway......NO it wasn't
Patricica, who AFAIK is not connected with ICSA in any way.
Tigger
***************************************************************
"What you don't see with your eyes, don't invent with your mouth".
Old Jewish Proverb
***************************************************************
>
>
> > He sucked too many exes who need recovery into his ridiculous,
> > confrontational plan simply to inflate his own sense of importance.
>
> > Epeen it's called now?
>
> > D
>
> > ------------------
>
> > "Here I sit so patiently,
> > Waiting to find out what price
> > You have to pay to get out of
> > Going though all these things twice." - B Dylan- Hide quoted text -
Tigger
>
> - Show quoted text -
Hi Nec,
Yes, you're probably right but an ex-cult member can always contact I\
ReFOCUS at the ICSA (formerly American Family Foundation) which offers
moral and informational support from ICSA & other ex's from
cults........... sort of group therapy plus........I think...... ICSA
(like OLD CAN) offers some sort of financical aid (scholarships?).
Best,
Tigger
Tigger
> "Tigger" <Tiggerinthe...@webtv.net> wrote in message
>
> news:dfcca827-b59a-4c72...@a2g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
> On Aug 10, 6:30 pm, Out_Of_The_Dark <xscilentolog...@yahoo.com> wrote:> On Aug 10, 3:09 pm, cultxpt <cult...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >snip<
>
> LOL....Emma's truth may be true for Emma......but is it the whole
> truth? You forgot to fetch and carry Patty's post which you and/or
> Ladybird posted on Lerma's message board. Emma apparently is under
> the control of ROAN, (the OCMB moderaor who just caused a major
> shitstorm on OCMB because of all his "selective" deletions.) Poor
> Emma. I feel sorry for her. Roan ended a great friendship between
> Patty and Emma and he just got some ANONS hopping mad.
>
> Tigger
>
> ___________________________________
>
> Wow Tigger, you've been back for 2 weeks and have everything all worked out.
Look Emma,
I like you. I like Patty. I like Patricia. I feel that you all are
great dames. I am very sorry that you all have had some
misunderstandings. And I really appreciate your phoning me to see if
I was all right after I got fed up with being called OSA and other
things and faded into the sunset.
.
>
> Seeing you missed the whole shitstorm on ars regarding Patty & me I'm
> guessing your getting the "correct" version of events from Patty.
Nope I didn't. Someone, not Patty or Patricia, gave me a heads up on
it and I got most of it from Lerma's pitiful excuse for a message
board where the infamous Ladybird had transferred some things for the
Lermabots to feast on. BTW did you ever confirm who Ladybird really
is?
>
> Roan does not control me. Nobody controls me. According to Patty, Roan is an
> OSA OP who has me under some sort of spell. And she has the audacity to call
> Lerma a loon.
LOL....well Lerma is a loon and many people agree. I thought you
once thought so too.. What changed your mind? Whatever Roan is,
apparently he got pulled in by Lerma's bullshit. Did Roan's and/or
Lerma's BS pull you in too?
>
> Roan & I became friends and mended a good many bridges along the way. Patty
> decided to invent her OSA OP story and betrayed some very personal
> confidences publically. Despite every evidence to the contrary, Patty HAS to
> maintain her opinion of Roan being "OSA" to make herself right for jumping
> to the wrong conclusions about me and betraying confidences. To admit she is
> wrong is to face up to an ugly truth.
So did or did not Roan (the so-called moderator of OCMB) give you the
info about Ladybird's sockpuppetry?
>
> If you were to look harder Tigger, you'd find that Roan got on the wrong
> side of PG by posting some challenging posts on her Profit message board.
> This immediately put him in PGs gunsights and Patty P started attacking him
> and withdrawing from me. Patty has nothing personal to judge Roan on, only
> the orders of PG. And don't try to pretend to me that you haven't posted on
> behalf of Patricia. I know you have because I still have the emails.
I posted on behalf of Shawn Lonsdale, as you well know. He was in
dire finanacial straights and living in his car. Patricia told me
about it and asked me and you to post some "Help Shawn" stuff. It
appeared that all the "critics" could do was to pat him on the back
and egg him on to run for (wasn't it?) mayor of Clearwater when he
needed to get a job and his life back on track. Talk about
manipulating someone! Due to Patricia's and our efforts, some
critics helped to get Shawn over a rough spot.
Patricia got financial help for Shawn and when COS came after him, got
the TCF attorney, Luke Lirot to stand up for him. What did Lerma
and his fans do? Called Patricia OSA and us all kinds of shit.
>
> As for Roan ending a friendship - Is that the story you bought? Roan didn't
> betray my confidences. Roan didn't make up stuff and publish it all over
> ars. Roan didn't try to destroy my reputation and my messageboard on ars.
> Roan wasn't my closet friend when this happened either, Patty was.. Patty
> didn't once talk to me about her suspicions or her concerns, instead went on
> one of her hormonal rants, added 2 + 2 and got 5 and didn't think twice
> about the ramifications.
So, did Roan or did he not give you the info to confirm Ladybird's
sockpuppetry?
>
> Roan may be a dick, and a hopeless moderator depending on your viewpoint,
> but he's human like everyone else and makes mistakes. But NOTHING he has
> ever done, or could ever do would compare with what Patty did. Not in my
> eyes anyway.
>
> And as for you "poor Emma" you can take your pity and shove it up your ass.
> You have no idea what actually went on and what the situation is today. If
> you must know I'm happily in a relationship with an Aussie guy who
> (thankfully) has no Scn history and isn't likely to ever be subjected to
> this kind of crap. I run ESMB, hardly ever read ars or OCMB and severly
> restrict my online relationships, male or female. I learned the hard way.
You have your viewpoint. Patty has hers. And I have mine. I wish
you both well.
And I hope you don't trust Roan or Lerma, who IMVP, ARE absolute
dicks and/or loons.
Best,
Tigger
Eldon
wrote:
> xenubarb <xenub...@netscape.net> wrote:
>
> quoting werma:
>
> >> If they never figure out how hypnosis works, because of your poo-
> >> pooing as kooky the years of research we did at Lermanet.com they will
> >> NEVER recover from the effects of the covert hypnosis in Scientology.
>
> WTF??? "... years of research we did at Lermanet.com ... ???
Arnie has done years of research, and has gathered a huge amount of
historical data from obscure sources. He has also invested an
incredible amount of work doing analyses like the headless people
exposé in the photo of an event in LA way back when.
Don't you know the definition of RESEARCH? Word clear the fucker and
then get back to us. Asshole.
I don't always agree with Arnie, and have sometimes strongly disagreed
with him -- the main example being his theory that the little trickle
charge from an e-meter somehow cumulatively fries people's brains in a
way equivalent to ECT.
But hell, I'm probably a little loony in some areas too. And a modicum
of disagreement doesn't eliminate my respect for him or my
appreciation of his efforts.
Grow up. Asshole.
>
> <retch> He's working right out of Elrong's playbook.
>
> What a fucking loon.
Nec_V20
Tigger,
first off the individual would have to get in contact with a group
like ReFOCUS. It's like the chicken and the egg problem - where do
they get the help to find out anything about getting help?
The other thing is that there seems to be an inadvertent triage going
on which excludes the most severely affected. This is not a criticism,
it is a fact of financial life. They do not have the resources to go
out and actively seek out the worst cases - the completely isolated,
financially ruined and perhaps homeless victims.
A group of fellow minded students and myself tried to do something of
this kind of outreach in the '80's and we were pretty close to going
to jail for our troubles. Who was wanting to get us whacked? Agencies
who had a financial interest in serving their "clients". We
volunteered our time, our own facilities and all we used was a phone
and a phonebook.
I would imagine that there would be similar stories out there about
individuals or small independent groups trying to do outreach who have
had similar cease and desist actions taken against them.
It's a shame. In some cases a crying shame.
Nec_V20
Tigger,
with regard to Ladybird's sockpuppetry, my girlfriend MissDorfl (she
posts as C. Reiter on ARS) got the goods on her over a year ago.
Just take a look back on the OCMB archives. That is of course if Roan
hasn't "accidentally" deleted them.
jerald
> On Aug 12, 6:45 am, "Emma" <emmm...@bonbon.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Tigger" <Tiggerinthe...@webtv.net> wrote in message
>
> >news:dfcca827-b59a-4c72...@a2g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
> > On Aug 10, 6:30 pm, Out_Of_The_Dark <xscilentolog...@yahoo.com> wrote:> On Aug 10, 3:09 pm, cultxpt <cult...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >snip<
>
> > truth? You forgot to fetch and carry Patty's post which you and/or
> > the control of ROAN, (the OCMB moderaor who just caused a major
> > shitstorm on OCMB because of all his "selective" deletions.) Poor
> >Emma. I feel sorry for her. Roan ended a great friendship between
> > You have no idea what actually went on and what the situation is today. If
> > you must know I'm happily in a relationship with an Aussie guy who
> > (thankfully) has no Scn history and isn't likely to ever be subjected to
> > this kind of crap. I run ESMB, hardly ever read ars or OCMB and severly
> > restrict my online relationships, male or female. I learned the hard way.
>
> You have your viewpoint. Patty has hers. And I have mine. I wish
> you both well.
> And I hope you don't trust Roan or Lerma, who IMVP, ARE absolute
> dicks and/or loons.
>
> Best,
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
I like all of you also. And some of you can really bungie jump on my
very last good nerve at times. But Emma runs by far for me the very
best and most needed board of the bunch. Man we all see to be at
each other more than normaly these days.
jerald
henri
<getof...@fluffentology.com> wrote:
>There are a number of us who have very different ideas as to how to go about
>doing things and how certain things should have been done. But that's no
>reason to paint someone as a murderer and grand conspirator. Why not just
>say that one disagrees with the person or even that they think the person
>has done (giving specifics ALWAYS) certain things and what the problem with
>those things are? Instead, we get her named as The Great Satan at every
>turn.
That's because a lot of these people are mentally disturbed nutcases
who never quit practicing Scientology. Just like the Two Minutes Hate
in 1984, they need their Emmanuel Goldstein to rant and rave and make
shit up about.
They don't really change the fucked up way they used to think. They
just slap new labels on it. So instead of blaming "SPs" for
everything, they now blame "OSA" for everything. Instead of
brainwashing psychs, they now have brainwashing "gypsy queens."
Needless to say, just like the cultists they denounce, their own
delusions need no evidence to support them, nor do they need to be
consistent with reality, or even internally consistent.
Their problem is a basic inability to think rationally, and even a
contempt for reason itself.
Smurf
That's because you're OSA. :-)
jerald
>
> - Show quoted text -
Awwww Can't I be CIA instead? They get all the hot chicks.
Maureen Drueck
>
> > On Aug 9, 7:38 pm, henri <he...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
> > > People just out of a cult are vulnerable, often impressionable, and
>
why you.....@#^*&$%@* :-)
>
> But it's worth the time to read so I hope everyone does.
My replies are always reflective of personal observation. Worthy for
anons and others to get a larger message.
Quality over stats, anytime :)
Maureen
>
> jerald
jerald
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
LOL :) It was quality.
jerald
Nec_V20
Nah, the CIA won't talk to you. They have talked to me when their HSM
box was down however. Hmmm who would I want owing me a favour OSA or
CIA? OSA have the RPFs but the CIA have all those cool resorts for the
unwilling all around the globe. I'll stick with my buddies at the CIA
- they need me for their HSM and I have no use for OSA whatsoever.
Ball of Fluff
who needed help. She's put a lot of time in and has achieved much. Really
really awesome job.
I'm very fond of Patty. I know that various things were said and done and I
really don't agree with all of them, but that's just not my call to make. I
do know that, for me, it doesn't take away from my affection for Patty, just
as nothing has taken away from my regard for the incredibly great job Emma
is doing.
I do think there's way too much of this bogeyman shit about Patricia
Greenway. So what if some posts were forwarded. She's not the only person to
ask someone to post some things for her. And it does not appear to have
happened all that much. And even if it had- does that make her public enemy
number 1? The conspiracy theories about her are just way over the top. I've
seen quite a few posts were, it's just about like somebody stubs their toe
and Patricia Greenway is said to be the culprit. Patricia has helped a lot
of critics. She's put a lot of time and money into fighting the cult. She
was even interviewed by Radar Magazine. So you guys need to lay off her. If
you disagree with things she's done, fine. But don't make her into Public
Enemy Number 1. Some of you sound like Hubbard or Miscavige screaming about
SPs in the woodpile.
I don't care if some people posted stuff on her behalf. In a way, she is
at the root of this problem- but not in the way people are saying. Because
she's been made into a bogeyman and because people were trying to pressure
other people about her, all kinds of shit blew up. It shouldn't have,
things were said that shouldn't have been, but people do not always act
rationally or happily or fairly when they're under that kind of pressure.
They blow up. People who blow up and lose their tempers often say stuff that
seemed like a rilly kewl idea at the time but was, in fact, not.
The lesson I have taken away from that is not so much about trusting or not
trusting people whom I meet on line, although I'm sure there's something to
that, but more that conversion and propagandizing to individuals can lead to
problems and anger. I saw it in CofS and I see it right here, too. If people
get yelled at, pressured, propagandized to, etc, they will eventually either
"disconnect" or blow up spectacularly with terrible results. Really, the
stuff that goes on between contributors on this forum, including certain
specific events either allude to on this thread or that were behind those
things, is not unlike CofS' affairs between members and staff. The results
are not dissimilar, either.
C
Patty Pieniadz
"Emma" <emm...@bonbon.net> wrote in message
news:6gdbfoF...@mid.individual.net...
>
> Wow Tigger, you've been back for 2 weeks and have everything all
> worked out.
>
> Seeing you missed the whole shitstorm on ars regarding Patty & me I'm
> guessing your getting the "correct" version of events from Patty.
No she didn't. It looks like you got a bit paranoid and assumed Tigger
and I were talking about you and so you just flipped out.
Tigger trolled you and you took the bait. Grow up, stop twisting my
words and actions and stop acting like a 14 year old cunt.
<snip the rest of a pms post>
Patty Pieniadz
"henri" <he...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:ibl3a4919d43ee9kk...@4ax.com...
Yes. And like Scn they need a WHO. It can't be me or you, because we
are here posting, it has to be someone evil, lurking behind the scenes,
just
like the evil psychs.
The WHO to the loons is Patricia Greenway.
Ball of Fluff
"Patty Pieniadz" <ppie...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:6ge8fjF...@mid.individual.net...
Exactly.
I don't expect that all critics will agree with all others. Agreement is
only enforced in CofS- or, at least, that's what I used to think. But it's a
far distance from disagreement and even anger to painting someone as the SP
beneath every woodpile.
C
jerald
wrote:
> "Patty Pieniadz" <ppieni...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
I like what you said here Claire.
jerald
Beth
wrote:
>it's just about like somebody stubs their toe
> and Patricia Greenway is said to be the culprit.
LOL. Yes, that is what I've noticed, too. I don't know what Patricia
Greenway did (or didn't do) to deserve that kind of demonizing by
people. I don't know her and don't feel my knowledge of the issues re
Minton and The Profit is anywhere near complete. But it is hard to
imagine she is culpable as often as she's made out to be.
There are some people who, when they have something they want to talk
about, will always find a way to bring it up. People here manage to
work Greenway into everything. When you were posting on OCMB, Claire,
there were posters who managed to find something to attack in all of
your posts, no matter what you said. People who do that remind me of
my mother, who always, no matter what anyone was talking about, found
a way to attack the Democrats. :P
Beth
>
> C
>
> www.claireswazey.com
henri
wrote:
>On Aug 12, 3:44 pm, "Ball of Fluff" <getoffmy...@fluffentology.com>
>wrote:
>>it's just about like somebody stubs their toe
>> and Patricia Greenway is said to be the culprit.
>LOL. Yes, that is what I've noticed, too. I don't know what Patricia
>Greenway did (or didn't do) to deserve that kind of demonizing by
>people.
She dared to criticize Minton when everyone else was busy sucking his
cock. Even though she turned out to be completely right that Minton
was heading for disaster, the gibbering nutcases (most of whom were
Minton's paid whores) still keep up their obsessive attacks. Maybe
they think if they screech loud enough, their sugar daddy will come
back and let them blow him some more.
Maureen Drueck
> On Aug 12, 2:49 pm, Tigger <Tiggerinthe...@webtv.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Aug 12, 7:06 am, Nec_V20 <ARC_Trian...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Aug 10, 8:49 pm, Tigger <Tiggerinthe...@webtv.net> wrote:
>
> > > > On Aug 9, 6:38 pm, henri <he...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > People just out of a cult are vulnerable, often impressionable, and
> > > > > having just left everything that they believed in, and often their
> > > > > friends and family, are very dependent on the people who "rescued"
> > > > > them.
>
> > > > > While for some people, it may be empowering, the "push" is unethical,
> > > > > when the people giving the push have a vested interest in recruiting
> > > > > for their cause, especially when they're exploiting their knowledge of
> > > > > the mental state of an ex-cultist in order to do it. Just as cults
> > > > > are unethical in exploiting their own knowledge of people's mental
> > > > > states in choosing to recruit at colleges, among sick people, at
> > > > > airports, and other places where people are likely to be in a
> > > > > transitional state in their lives, cult critics are unethical when
> > > > > they do it themselves.
>
> > > > > whatScientologyitself does, it is attempts to recruit people
> > > > > directly out of the cult as foot soldiers in their crusade. People
> > > > > should be allowed to be themselves before being unduly influenced by
> > > > > cult critics.
>
> > > > > If I were ever giving advice to someone considering leaving
> > > > >Scientology, it would be to stay far, far away from the exploitative
> > > > > pit all too willing to poison the minds of ex-cultists, replacing the
> > > > > dogma of "SPs" with the dogma that "OSA" is responsible for
> > > > > everything. They are motivated primarily by desire for revenge and an
> > > > > ends justifies the means mentality predominates with these people.
>
> > > > > What is particularly tragic is that just as Scientologists and other
> > > > > cultists view the cult leader, who has horribly betrayed and abused
> > > > > them, as the savior of humanity, the ex-cultists mindfucked by cult
> > > > > critics and turned out as foot soldiers similarly view the very people
> > > > > who have exploited them as their saviors.
>
> > > > > It should be obvious what I'm talking about.
>
> > > > Henri is spot on. According to Seigel and Conway "Snapping",
All of a sudden, there are medical triage units appearing on ars
As if they try to fit in as having contributed to a civil conversation
before.
How corny heheh
I mean they look real corny hahahhah
Maureen
Maureen Drueck
You have outdone yourself in trying to look as though you have a
handle on anything,
Take the stick and stir it in the toilet harder. Maybe the turds will
come to life and act as you think they will.
Maureen Drueck
I don't think so. We would all be a day late and a dollar short to be
considered good enough.
Behind the scenes. yaup
Maureen
Maureen Drueck
> On Aug 9, 6:38 pm, henri <he...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > People just out of a cult are vulnerable, often impressionable, and
> > having just left everything that they believed in, and often their
> > friends and family, are very dependent on the people who "rescued"
> > them.
>
> > While for some people, it may be empowering, the "push" is unethical,
> > when the people giving the push have a vested interest in recruiting
> > for their cause, especially when they're exploiting their knowledge of
> > the mental state of an ex-cultist in order to do it. Just as cults
> > are unethical in exploiting their own knowledge of people's mental
> > states in choosing to recruit at colleges, among sick people, at
> > airports, and other places where people are likely to be in a
> > transitional state in their lives, cult critics are unethical when
> > they do it themselves.
>
> > what Scientology itself does, it is attempts to recruit people
> > directly out of the cult as foot soldiers in their crusade. People
> > should be allowed to be themselves before being unduly influenced by
> > cult critics.
>
> > If I were ever giving advice to someone considering leaving
> > Scientology, it would be to stay far, far away from the exploitative
> > pit all too willing to poison the minds of ex-cultists, replacing the
> > dogma of "SPs" with the dogma that "OSA" is responsible for
> > everything. They are motivated primarily by desire for revenge and an
> > ends justifies the means mentality predominates with these people.
>
> > What is particularly tragic is that just as Scientologists and other
> > cultists view the cult leader, who has horribly betrayed and abused
> > them, as the savior of humanity, the ex-cultists mindfucked by cult
> > critics and turned out as foot soldiers similarly view the very people
> > who have exploited them as their saviors.
>
> > It should be obvious what I'm talking about.
>
> Henri is spot on. According to Seigel and Conway "Snapping",
> cult. Some time (depending how long a person was in the cult) is
> NEEDED to recover from the dmage done by totalitarian mind control
> groups. It takes time to get rid of the cult group think and think
> for yourself.
>
> ICSA (formerly American Family Foundation) has help for ex cult
> members and their families. Tory and any other ex or thinking to
> become an ex would be smart to check out ReFOCUS and get the help they
> need to get their lives and MINDS back on the right tract. They fneed
> to find out why they joined the "group", why they stayed so long and
> why it was so hard to leave and return to thinking for themselves.
> It would be TIME WELL SPENT and they can always come back and become a
> critic and/or an activist if that's what THEY
> decide they want to do.
>
> Giambalvo, Carol: "Post-Cult Problems: An Exit Counselor's
> Perspective"
> http://www.icsahome.com/infoserv_articles/ryan_patrick_affnews12.html
>
> Tigger
> **********************************************************
> "What you don't see with your eyes, don't invent with your mouth"
> Old Jewish Proverb
>
> *********************************************************
"We are the authority"
$cientology got dirt on ICSA?
They are throwing eggs using ICSA for some reason
Maureen Drueck
> On Aug 10, 6:35 pm, Out_Of_The_Dark <xscilentolog...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > On Aug 10, 6:16 pm, Tigger <Tiggerinthe...@webtv.net> wrote:
>
> > > WARNING TO ANONS & anyone else who might fall for the bullshit of
> > > Arnie Lerma and Still in the Dark Mary.
>
> > > They need some exit counseling and a realilty check.
>
> > > Tigger
>
> > That's a predictable response. I exposed you for having committed the
> > fraud of posting for Patricia Greenway and you call it bullshit. Ha!!
>
> HA is right. Me thinks you just exposed yourself as LADYBIRD. LOL
> Ladybird claimed she did the exposing.
> What you two (one?) have really exposed is that you/she need exit
> counseling to stop practicing Scientology.
>
> > I think it's important to get the facts out in the open so anons know
> > what they are dealing with. Patty Pooks little ruse didn't last long.
>
> O.K. I've given you the facts I know. I ask people for information.
> Sometimes I pass on that information.
> Sometimes I don't. Sometimes I say where I got the information.
> Sometimes I don't.
>
> When I wrote Letters to the Editor of the Daily Oklahoman about
> NarCONon Chilloco back in the 90's, I didn't say that information came
> from Bob Lobsinger,
> publisher of the Newkirk Hearld Journal or the Ass't State Attorney
> General.
>
> LOL....some information I didn't share was the THE BIG NARCONON SEWER
> CLEANUP. The Scienos found out there was going to be a state
> inspection and they had had a major sewer back up......so they had all
> the "clients" out to scoop up the "shit" and hide it.
>
> Here........see for yourself.
>
> THE LETTERS WAR
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.scientology/browse_thread...
> Daily Oklahoman%2C Narconon Chilocco#2e83f15086068334
>
> Scroll down to J. WILSON.
>
> Was there something wrong with any information that Patty and/or I
> provided? If so, confront that and stop charging the messenger(s)
> like a raging bull. That's too, too, too, SCIENTOLOGICAL. A fact
> is a fact. Doesn't matter if a Democrat or Repulican or a critic or a
> Scientologist provides it.....it's still a fact.
>
> Tigger
>
> ******************************************************
> "What you don't see with your eyes, don't invent with your mouth."
> Old Jewish Proverb
>
> **********************************************************
Isaac Hayes pulled on the song "Shaft" for years. It was poor marketing
Maureen Drueck
> John Dorsay wrote:
> > Smurf wrote:
>
> > <snip>
>
> >> I think the whole lot of you need some heavy doses of Valium. I
> >> thought this NG was about Scientology, not an inter-personal attack &
> >> complaint forum among the OG critics.
>
> > You must be new here....
>
> LOL!
>
> Welcome to the OGDome...
Where has beens shoot themselves down in flames!
Maureen Drueck
So said Dr Denk with syringes of vistaril in his hand
Maureen Drueck
> On Aug 12, 7:15 am, Eldon <EldonB...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Aug 10, 7:24 pm, Rev Dennis L Erlich <infor...@informer.org> wrote:
>
> > > Smurf <Miscavige.Sucks.D...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >rather than try to become acclimated to the outside world, they return
> > > >to the way of life they were used to, whether it made them happy or
> > > >not.
>
> > > Lot's of times there's another group of predators ready to use them in
> > > their personal crusade. Minton was such a man.
>
> > I think 'predator' is the wrong term. My impression was more like a
> > hothead (possibly bipolar) who drank a bit too much. My impression was
> > also that Stacy dumped Vaughn and latched onto Bob for obvious reasons
> > (like his money), and then proceeded to seriously manipulate him. I
> > heard that she tried to sabotage "The Profit" for some unknown reason
> > -- maybe just because she hated Patricia's guts.
>
> > I recall that Stacy once said she spent a week or so at Wellspring to
> > deprogram, but I don't think it was enough to do much good. Not taking
> > sides here except to say that Tracy was quite concerned about
> > appearing to be an expert and maintaining control.
>
> >Someone from ICSA (no I will not name the who and betray a confidence) said that Bob Minton and Stacy Brooks checked in to Wellspring and stayed about a week, but did not complete the program which required NO ALCOHOL USE because Minton wanted to leave.
>
> This person also said that ICSA (formerly American Family Foundation)
> did not welcome Minton with open arms like the
> group who emerged from the OLD CAN did........ which gave Minton the
> Leo J. Ryan award and ICSA/AFF were very glad it didn't.
>
> And before anyone starts yelling Patricia Greenway......NO it wasn't
> Patricica, who AFAIK is not connected with ICSA in any way.
>
> Tigger
>
> ***************************************************************
> "What you don't see with your eyes, don't invent with your mouth".
> Old Jewish Proverb
> ***************************************************************
>
>
>
> > > He sucked too many exes who need recovery into his ridiculous,
> > > confrontational plan simply to inflate his own sense of importance.
>
> > > Epeen it's called now?
>
> > > D
>
> > > ------------------
>
> > > "Here I sit so patiently,
> > > Waiting to find out what price
> > > You have to pay to get out of
> > > Going though all these things twice." - B Dylan- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
Tigger is using ICSA to beat up critics who have also contributed
here:
http://www.religionnewsblog.com/11036
This is what $cientologyu does when they join an organization. She has
nothing to say about the death of Lisa McPherson. her target is Bob
Minton.
That was Benetta Slaughters target also when she founded gthe Lisa
McPherson Foundation.
"and families who study and educate the public about social-
psychological influence and control, authoritarianism, and zealotry in
cultic groups, alternative movements, and other environments."
"Tigger civil rights advocate"
"Fighting critics like ducks in a pond"
Cultic Studies Association receives donation on behalf of Tom Cruise
Religion News Blog, Netherlands
Apr. 22, 2005
www.religionnewsblog.com
• Article Tools • Share This Story
ReligionNewsBlog.com • Item 11036 • Posted: Friday April 22, 2005
Click here... More articles on this topic: Scientology
Tom Cruise recently sent a plaque to several journalists with a note
saying he also made a donation in their name to the International
Association of Scientologists.
Apr. 26, 2005 Update
There has been an apparent misunderstanding between the ICSA and the
people behind the “Cruise Project.” In an email to the project’s
organizer, the ICSA explained why - on second thought - it has
declined to accept a donation made on behalf of Tom Cruise:
“Dear Valerie,
I’m afraid that the directors are uncomfortable accepting a donation
in the name of somebody who obviously would not approve. Although we
appreciate your interest in donating to us, they believe it is
inappropriate for ICSA to be part of what is described in various
correspondences circulating on the Web. We would be happy to apply the
donation to ex-member conference/workshop scholarships, if it is made
in the name of the true donors, but not if it is made in the name of
somebody who does not approve of the donation.
On behalf of the Board of Directors of ICSA,
Carol Giambalvo
Carol Giambalvo, Director”
- Posted at Scientology Kills
A group of anti-cult activists involved in educating the public about
the teachings and practices of the Church of Scientology has now
responded with a similar gesture of their own. They have made a $1000
donation to a cult information organization on behalf of Tom Cruise.
The donation was made to the International Cultic Studies Association
(ICSA), formerly known as the American Family Foundation.
Cruise, who actively proselytizes for Scientology, last December also
sent a Christmas card to David and Victoria Beckham. He included a
copy of Scientology’s so-called ‘Code of Honour,’ and told the couple
he had made a donation to the church on their behalf.
The journalists received a plaque listing the 12 rules of Scientology.
In turn, the cult information activists are sending Tom Cruise a
certificate listing the ‘Marks of a Destructive Cult,’ and informing
him that a donation has been made on his behalf to the ICSA.
The certificate reads as follows:
Marks of a Destructive Cult
1) Mind control (undue influence): Manipulation by use of coercive
persuasion or behavior modification techniques without informed
consent.
2) Charismatic leadership: claiming divinity or special knowledge
and demanding unquestioning obedience with power and privilege.
3) Deception: recruiting and fund raising with hidden objectives
and without full disclosure of the use of mind controlling techniques;
use of front groups.
4) Exclusivity: Secretiveness or vagueness by followers regarding
activities and beliefs.
5) Alienation: Separation from family, friends and society, a
change in values and substitution of the cult as the new family;
evidence of subtle or abrupt personality changes.
6) Exploitation: Can be financial, physical, or psychological.
7) Totalitarian World view (we/they syndrome): Effecting
dependence, promoting goals of the group over the individual and
approving unethical behavior while claiming goodness.
The Church of Scientology is widely recognized as a destructive cult.
The note sent along with the certificate has the following text:
‘Dear Mr. Cruise, We�ve read of your recent donations to charity
on behalf of others and felt you would appreciate our effort. We are
happy, therefore, to send you this certificate entitled ‘Marks of a
Destructive Cult’ and inform you that a donation has been made in your
name to the International Cultic Studies Association.
Barb alt.religion.scientology newsgroup poster
Tam Best alt.religion.scientology newsgroup poster
Biscuit alt.religion.scientology newsgroup poster
Cerridwen alt.religion.scientology newsgroup poster
Valerie Emanuel www.scientology-kills.org
Feisty alt.religion.scientology newsgroup poster
Mike Gormez www.whyaretheydead.net
Tilman Hausherr www.xenu.de
Andreas Heldal-Lund www.xenu.net
Arnaldo Lerma www.lermanet.com
Moontaco alt.religion.scientology newsgroup poster
Tom Padgett alt.religion.scientology newsgroup poster
Quaoar alt.religion.scientology newsgroup poster
David Rice alt.religion.scientology newsgroup poster
Tigger civil rights advocate
Prof. David S. Touretzky free speech activist
and seven donors who wish to remain anonymous.
Celebrities and Scientology
“The Church of Scientology uses celebrity spokesmen to endorse L. Ron
Hubbard’s teachings and give Scientology greater acceptability in
mainstream America. As far back as 1955, Hubbard recognized the value
of famous people to his fledgling, off-beat church when he inaugurated
‘Project Celebrity.’ According to Hubbard, Scientologists should
target prominent individuals as their “quarry” and bring them back
like trophies for Scientology. [...] Celebrities are considered so
important to the movement’s expansion that the church created a
special office to guide their careers and ensure their ‘correct
utilization’ for Scientology. The church has a special branch that
ministers to prominent individuals, providing them with first-class
treatment. Its headquarters, called Celebrity Centre International, is
housed in a magnificent old turreted mansion on Franklin Avenue,
overlooking the Hollywood Freeway.
- The Selling of a Church: The Courting of Celebrities
The Scandal of Scientology: Children and Celebrities
Travolta, Cruise and other celebrities con fans and media
Scientology celebrities FAQ
Research resources on Scientology
Alt.religion.scientology is a Usenet discussion group about
Scientology. In January, 1995, the Church of Scientology - which has
engaged in a number of censorship and spamming efforts - has attempted
to remove the discussion group.
The International Cultic Studies Association is an interdisciplinary
network of academicians, professionals, former group members, and
families who study and educate the public about social-psychological
influence and control, authoritarianism, and zealotry in cultic
groups, alternative movements, and other environments.
ICSA, the leading professional organization concerned about cultic
groups and psychological manipulation, is known for its
professionalism and capacity to respond effectively to families,
former and current group members, helping professionals, and scholars.
Tigger
> here:
>
> http://www.religionnewsblog.com/11036
>
> This is what $cientologyu does when they join an organization. She has
> nothing to say about the death of Lisa McPherson. her target is Bob
> Minton.
>
> That was Benetta Slaughters target also when she founded gthe Lisa
> McPherson Foundation.
>
> "and families who study and educate the public about social-
> psychological influence and control, authoritarianism, and zealotry in
> cultic groups, alternative movements, and other environments."
>