Why do people believe?
vf...@aol.com
(...) writes:
"I continue to be flabbergasted by the number of people who dedicate
there beliefs to hundreds of religions and gods yet have NO-NADA
objective verifiable evidence to support their beliefs. There is no
evidence that any of these gods communicate with any sane persons of
these religions. No dead fathers, mothers relatives or friends ever
verify there heaven or hell with their living siblings or friends
There is no objective verifiable evidence that any of these gods have,
in any clear manner, established their existence. All religious
beliefs appear to be purely based on the claims of others humans of
questionable sanity, veracity and intelligence. Would anyone invest
their wealth based on these unsubstantiated beliefs? Why do they
invest their very lives so carelessly?"
*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********
V:
Thanks for your timely topic.
In defense of the theists. A good study course is:
Faith and Reason - Philosophy of Religion
Modern Scholar Series - recorded books - 7 CD's
Lecturer: Professor Peter Kreeft
A highly recommend series for anyone interested in the subject of
religion and spiritual studies. The professor is a long time resident
of Boston college. I found this course to be very fair minded. I could
not tell and preference for any side of the subject and he argued for
all sides with the same zeal. The bulk of the course discussed the
monotheist and atheist views while the remainder dealt with
comparative religion studies of Buddhism, Hinduism, Confucius, and
Taoism.
Course Syllabus
Lecture 1 What Is Religion? Why Is It Worth Thinking About?
Lecture 2 Atheism
Lecture 3 The Problem of Evil
Lecture 4 Arguments for God's Existence from Nature (Cosmological
Arguments)
Lecture 5 Arguments for God's Existence from Human Experience
(Psychological Arguments)
Lecture 6 Religion and Science
Lecture 7 The Case Against Life After Death
Lecture 8 The Case for Life After Death: Twelve Arguments
Lecture 9 Different Concepts of Heaven
Lecture 10 Hell
Lecture 11 Testing the Different Truth-Claims of Different
Religions
Lecture 12 Comparative Religions
Lecture 13 What Would Socrates Think?
Lecture 14 Religious Experience
As far as why people believe without indisputable evidence?
People do it for a number of reasons.
Some are trained from birth as I was - you take it all for gospel
without question. I was catholic for 50 years before I became an
agnostic freethinker. It took 45 years just to start questioning
things and 5 years to come to a conclusion for me.
Others just need some comfort to 'look towards' and help escape the
present pain of life. People like the idea of someone looking out for
them - both in this life and the supposed next life.
You see, few of us like the idea of permanent death.
Nor does the average person like a life of pain and unhappiness.
So religion fills the gap that atheism cannot help with and in many
cases atheism just makes matters much worse though bitterness and ill
will while ripping out the previous moral and charitable foundation
that religion supplied in the person previous life.
Isn't it much easier to fantasize about something else than stay in
the hear and now? Fantasies about being in heaven with no pain and all
joy?
I try and catch myself when I practice this escapism and work to bring
my thoughts back to the present.
Whenever the fantasy starts I check to see what I am escaping from?
Why do I fixate on something else instead of where I'm at?
If we take care of the present, the future will take care of itself so
the good book tells us.
Practicing mindfulness of the present moment as part of a Buddhist
practice has helped me as well as and working 12 step programs to
repair the damage of the past and balance my life.
When theists look towards the atheist they see nothing but pain and
hatred. So naturally this helps 'keep them in religion' as there is no
other place to go for a semblance of peace.
No, just being an atheist will not solve one's problems by any means.
See:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism/browse_frm/thread/e77181f1188b4804/8d580376205a536b?
A lot of atheists I run into make their intellect their God.
They do not know that academic smarts are not the same as peace
smarts.
Until they can transcend their ego they will never find the answer
(peace) they seek.
It is the same for those that think money is all that is standing
between them and happiness.
So it goes for the ego and intellect based person that is devoid of
spiritual values.
Always remember...one thing only goes so far with giving a person a
good life. Seek balance.
Spiritual growth as well as humans are not perfect, but we can all do
better at being humane if we try.
See:
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=4.0
May I suggest that instead of being dogmatic, militant atheists as
many of you are, you become agnostic freethinkers?
Same with the theists crowd. Start questioning the absurd and stop
killing people in the name of God or Allah.
The only true freethinkers are agnostic freethinkers.
Theist or atheist...you are both mind manacled and deluded.
This is the beauty of being a freethinker. We can think for
ourselves.
As such, when we get a toolbox we can decide which tools to use for
the job. Some tools are used a lot, other tools are left alone for the
time being, and still others are trashed when we see they are broken
and useless.
Again, a freethinker is 'free to decide' how they wish to proceed.
Just be careful of falling into the trap of 'mind manacled
freethinker' as many ego based people fall into.
The prejudiced, blind, small minded thinker cannot entertain
freethought as they must block or censor the ideas and concepts before
testing them for truth.
Their ego will not allow it! Such people do not operate on truth, they
operate on ego. There is nothing wrong with having personal opinions,
but when we use these opinions to destroy others, then it does become
very wrong.
The difference between an authority and an authoritarian is this.
An authority speaks from a place of truth and such speaks as an
authority. Whereas an authoritarian rules by fear and not by truth.
For the truth stands on it own and the authoritarian stands on their
EGO.
No, egocentricity is not good for spiritual work and we need to be
open to others ideas and embrace them as nourishment for your growth
and sustenance for life - as no one person is God.
Traditional freethinkers (atheists) do not accept me as one of their
group, since I draw from spiritual paths as well as wordily areas to
garner wisdom to live at peace. Traditional freethinkers do not like
anything that comes from religion.
Kind of a misnomer isn't it...I'm a freethinker...but I must block out
everything that comes from religion and spiritual traditions and
whatever other prejudice I wish to inject into the equation?
Psychologist William James once said, "A great many people believe
they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices."
When we limit prejudice we can open our minds to truth and peace. And
realize the truth of Blake's words that "all deities reside within the
human breast."
If it is religion that an atheists need to adopt, they only have to
look as far as the religion of humanity. But just paying secular
humanism lip service will not do any good.
Our talk of spiritual values must match our actions.
I was at a religious discussion where the group was composed of a wide
spectrum of believers and non believers. One atheist said he ran his
life by the golden rule. Another person piped up that the golden rule
came from the bible, which made the atheist wince.
The atheist seemed to take pride in his self sufficiency and did not
like to run his life by anything that came out of the bible. When it
came up that the concept of golden rule might be from an earlier
source than the bible, the atheist was relieved.
This was a good reminder to me to examine where my guiding light
resides? Is it ego based or truth based?
When the guiding light of this atheist was not grounded in the bible
he was happy. But when it came from an area that he did not like, he
was upset.
How can the same material be used to build a palace by one man, yet
only build a hovel for another? By one spiritual practitioner seeing
truth and applying it to live a life at peace. And the other person
only seeing prejudice and problems and doing nothing.
Every religion was made by man and as such every religion is imperfect
as it is run by man. Despite these imperfections, each religion also
has many "perfection's" within it as well.
We can still be open to peace generating tools from any of the
religions and spiritual traditions that are available to us if we are
serious about being at peace. This requires us to run our life by
truth and not by prejudice.
In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus said: "Therefore, whatever you want
men to do to you, do also to them" (Matthew 7:12). Nowadays this verse
is commonly referred to as "The Golden Rule," and is more commonly
quoted as: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
Here are some of the earliest sources for this concept of reciprocity
~1970-1640 BCE "Do for one who may do for you, / That you may cause
him thus to do." - The Tale of the Eloquent Peasant 109-110, Ancient
Egypt, tr. R.B. Parkinson.
* ~700 BCE "That nature only is good when it shall not do unto another
whatever is not good for its own self." - Dadistan-i-Dinik 94:5,
Zoroastrianism.
* ? BCE "Whatever is disagreeable to yourself do not do unto others."
- Shayast-na-Shayast 13:29, Zoroastrianism.
* ~550 BCE "You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against your
countrymen. Love your fellow as yourself: I am the LORD." - Tanakh,
new JPS translation, Leviticus 19:18, Judaism.
* ~500 BCE "Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find
hurtful." - Udana-Varga 5:18, Buddhism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethic_of_reciprocity
Now, whether you believe in God or believe in Jesus or are an atheist
or Buddhist does this wisdom not apply to you? This truth is universal
in nature as it is based not on being of a certain religion, other
than that of the religion of humanity.
In this case, you can adopt a peace generating tool and apply it to
your life irrespective of your religious beliefs or lack thereof.
I had to chuckle one time when an atheist argued that the golden rule
is not perfect, so he said he does not follow it. When I questioned
him about what he does follow as well as the state of perfection that
applied to his life, all he could do was reply with profanities and
attacks on me.
Those that can't argue truth...argue personalities.
If we are waiting for perfection when it comes to spiritual studies we
will always be disappointed. Before applying perfection to anything
outside of us, we should examine the perfection within us.
The nature of humans is that of imperfection, so we must always look
towards direction and forget perfection.
I heard a story one time in a Yoga lecture that illustrates this
point. "Range is of the ego - Form is of the soul." The only thing we
need to be concerned with is how is our form when it comes to our
spiritual practice and our life.
Regarding the golden rule? It is more perfect than imperfect, so it is
a most useful tool to live a life at peace by.
And when we combine it with other tools such as universality, natural
law, contrast the greater good with the greater right, etc the
synergistic effect is close to perfection as humans can get with this
subject.
But it takes some thinking and one will not see it without an open
mind. Wisdom for living a life at peace is all around us for the
taking. But many of us get blinded with labels and personal
prejudices.
Whenever we take it upon ourselves to beat down, we are headed in a
direction of destroying peace. We destroy our own peace as well as
others peace. As such, I practice from many religious and spiritual
traditions without problems or prejudices and readily look for such
gifts irrespective of what label they come under - on the contrary I
am most grateful wherever I find them.
If I am not able to use a concept, I leave it alone, but do not spend
my time or energies to beat others down.
Do we like to be beaten down?
I saw some paintings in a Japanese museum that showed a cousin of the
Buddha being of great power and to show his strength he went up to a
baby elephant and pushed it down to the ground. A second painting
showed the Buddha helping this baby elephant back up to his feet and
the Buddha lifted the elephant high up over his head and said, "It is
much better to uplift - than to tear down."
Whether this is a true story or not I do not know. But we can all
benefit from uplifting rather than destroying.
I see this predisposition to destruction many times in responses I
receive from my posts. The critiques offer much in the line of 'no
goods' but they seldom do they offer any substantive tools to finding
peace. Maybe I do not have it '100% right' but I have it 'right
enough' to be able to be at peace if I apply these principles. If I
waited for perfection, I would never act. I use the tools at hand.
Aristotle ~ "It is the mark of an educated mind to rest satisfied with
the degree of precision which the nature of the subject admits and not
to seek exactness where only an approximation is possible."
This being able to 'rest satisfied' is something the perfectionists
lack and why they will never be at peace until they stop collecting
concepts and start using the concepts of peace generations.
The atheist I mentioned above demonstrated this with his blanket
dismissal of the golden rule since it is not 100% perfect. He could
offer no substitutes for the golden rule, all he could do was succumb
to personal attacks on me. We can examine our writing to see what
useful tools for finding peace we offer to others it also says a lot
about our own practice of generating inner peace.
When you practice peace promotion with others you will reap inner
peace promotion. When you practice destroying others peace, you will
reap self destruction of inner peace. This is the truth when the
prejudice of ego is stripped away.
Whether atheists, theists or Buddhists, I submit that you all drop the
pretense and lies that you have been grasping onto for entire life and
rebuild your life through a foundation of truth and testing and
regenerate yourselves into a truth based agnostic freethinker.
Take care,
V (Male)
Agnostic Freethinker
Practical Philosopher
AA#2
Yowie
news:1180898028.6...@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> (...) writes:
>
> "I continue to be flabbergasted by the number of people who dedicate
> there beliefs to hundreds of religions and gods yet have NO-NADA
> objective verifiable evidence to support their beliefs. There is no
> evidence that any of these gods communicate with any sane persons of
> these religions. No dead fathers, mothers relatives or friends ever
> verify there heaven or hell with their living siblings or friends
> There is no objective verifiable evidence that any of these gods have,
> in any clear manner, established their existence. All religious
> beliefs appear to be purely based on the claims of others humans of
> questionable sanity, veracity and intelligence. Would anyone invest
> their wealth based on these unsubstantiated beliefs? Why do they
> invest their very lives so carelessly?"
<snip intersting but rather long stuff>
> Whether atheists, theists or Buddhists, I submit that you all drop the
> pretense and lies that you have been grasping onto for entire life and
> rebuild your life through a foundation of truth and testing and
> regenerate yourselves into a truth based agnostic freethinker.
The person who wrote the first pragraph above incorrectly assumes that
everyone's religoius beliefs are the result of someone else tellign them to
believe. That is demonstrably incorrect. There are some people who built
their own belief system themselves, from principles and beliefs they felt
were foundationally true. others also stumble upon a faith system and it
resonates so much with themt hat they adopt that label. neither set are
believing things 'just because' someone else said so.
Why do I believe inthings I know I can't verify by scientific means? Because
of an innate need for the Universe to make sense, for the innate need to
believe that somehwere, somewhow, the universe is a fair and just system,
and that that if not in this mortal lifetime, there is some mechanism in
somewhere (and somewhen) that ensures that those who treat others with
respect, dignity and kindness are recognised, and those who are - by
evolutionary standards quite successful - but social @ssholes, learn the
error of their way.
I need to believe this.
After that, it was pretty much a process of researching various belief
systems for inspiration until I could find a way of satisfying this *desire*
to 'reach out' in a spiritual way. Its an ongoing process, but an eclectic
misx of wicca, Quaker-style Christianity and Gnosticism seem to be working
so far.
i am well aware it could all be a delusion. I will not be arrogant and say
'this is the right way for everybody, follow my way or suffer bad
consequences'. I can only say 'this works for me'. Other people smoke
cigarettes drink, chase UFOs or listen to Country and Western. Whatever
flosts your boat, really, as long as its not doing others a disservice.
Yowie
Kater Moggin
...
More spam from vfr44. He already tried posting this one to
the web and to alt.religion.
-- Moggin
vf...@aol.com
> <v...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yes, good points you have brought up.
Sounds like you do test various ways Yowie.
That was all I proposed with my post on being open to what
works...testing.
I do not discredit anyone for their beliefs.
Only problem I have is when people get too high and mighty and start
to tear down others with beliefs that are just that...personal
beliefs.
....My discussion of this 'testing' topic from an earlier post.
Censorship...my history with prejudice.
(...) writes:
"Should we pursue all possible knowledge or should knowledge be
censored, edited, selected, maintained, and tampered with so as to
allow only that which best serves life? Or to put it differently: Is
ignorance true bliss? And if it is, should we will such ignorance so
as to better preserve our bliss? Of course, one then must invite the
question as to whether "bliss" is the final value, the final measure
of value of a life?"
V:
"The highest object that human beings can set before themselves is
not the pursuit of any such chimera as the annihilation of the
unknown: it is simply the unwearied endeavor to remove its boundaries
a little further from our little sphere of action." ~ Huxley
Yes, ignorance can be bliss, just as the bliss an alcoholic finds when
in their drunken stupor. The problem is not in the discussion of
truth, the only problem is when people try to 'block' the discussion
of truth. Prejudice, hatred and ill will can never yield true peace.
These actions of destruction require 'some thinking' on the part of
the person that seeks bliss through mind manacled ignorance and tries
to destroy others with their actions of destruction due to an
insobriety of personal opinions. There is nothing wrong with having
personal opinions, but when we use these opinions to destroy others,
then it does become very wrong.
The prejudiced, blind, small minded thinker cannot entertain
freethought as they must block or censor the ideas and concepts before
testing them for truth. Their ego will not allow it! Such people do
not operate on truth, they operate on ego. The difference between an
authority and an authoritarian is this. An authority speaks from a
place of truth and such speaks as an authority. Whereas an
authoritarian rules by fear and not by truth. For the truth stands on
it own and the authoritarian stands on their EGO. We all have to use
our ego when making value judgments, but the crossover come when the
ego is used as a weapon.
As Horace told us, "Caelum non animum mutant qui trans mare currunt--
You can run away as far as you like but you'll never get away from
yourself." The person that lives by prejudice and hate carries it with
them wherever they go and eventually it rots them from the inside
out.
Let me give you a little background about myself and censorship.
I have been on about 210 forums over the last 9 years and have been
banned from about 70% of them due to prejudice. The vast majority of
these forums have been dedicated to personal improvement as well as
spiritual studies.
Now with Christian forums it is 100% ban rate and Buddhist forums is
90% ban and atheist forums it is about 85% - 90% ban.
But this ignorance is universal 'human' in nature.
Psychologist William James once said, "A great many people believe
they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices."
Let me give you an example that has happened to me in the past.
In the bible it says "Test everything; hold fast to what is good;
abstain from every form of evil," (1 Thess. 5:21)
Taking from Christian, Buddhist and most other religions of the world
I discuss such tools in my posts no matter their source. When I talked
about this 'concept of testing' and related it to the Buddha's tool of
testing doctrine, but included this bible quote above, I was banned by
the Buddhists. Yet the Buddha also encouraged testing of his teachings
before adopting those teachings.
At a Christian forum, when I brought up the Buddha encourages testing
just as it was said in the bible, the Christian forums banned me.
Then at the atheist forums when I mention the Bible and the Buddha
both offered the tools of testing to help determine truth, the atheist
sites ban me.
Yet, all three groups like the idea of testing for truth, as long as
this idea comes from them and not from anyone else...many people
believe they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their
prejudices. Alan Watts use to say we define ourselves by our enemies.
We define ourselves by what we are not. He used the example of
'Beatniks and Squares' which were the in fad opposites back in his
day. So of course it is natural for these groups to view themselves as
polar opposites.
We should always be interested in finding truth and peace. If our way
is not working then some other way may help. It is good to test and
see the results and not get caught up in prejudice blocking the way.
For with such tests, 'the proof of the pudding will be in the eating'
and decisions on how to live will not be left only to your ego, but
will be grounded in peace.
The three unwholesome roots of delusions, greed and hate are very
basic to a a Buddhist practice. Out of these three, delusion is the
foundational root, for without seeing delusions for what they are, you
cannot distinguish the other two unwholesome roots of greed and hate.
People suffer from delusions in all form and not just deity worship.
Atheism, while freeing ones mind to think, but it does not guarantee
one thinks right and acts right. This is the importance of replacing
wrong religious beliefs with right thinking and right living.
For instance, I was banned from many 'so called' Buddhist sites such
as Esangha, Tricycle, Shambhala, Buddha Chat, 12 step Buddhists,
Sangha-Pauahtun, eBuddhism, etc even though I have been a freethinking
Buddhist for nearly a decade. Some people claiming to be Buddhist
think all they have to is shave their heads, adopt a silly name, be a
vegetarians and burn incense to be a Buddhists...all the while they
are doing great harm to others, Which is how it is with many Buddhist
forums that are 'for profit' and run by 'spiritually sick'
individuals. Currently, it is a sad state of affairs with such online
Buddhist groups.
I've been on dozens of Christian forums and I have perfect record at
the Christian forums...100% banned...and I was a Christian myself at
that time I tried to join them years ago.
I was able to finagle my way back into one Christian forum though:
http://www.christianforums.com/index.php
But I could only stay if I claimed to be an atheist...and I do not
post much and keep my mouth shut...and if I do post it has to be
something non consequential. Also I am not allowed to post with the
Christians. I can only post to the atheists. I like that forum as it
reminds me of the 'sickness of attachment,' so that is why I put up
with all the prejudice. At that forum you can 'buy your armor' to
outfit your avatar to shield you from evil and 'trade blessings' with
each other.
The Billy Graham and Catholic forums banned me after my first
posts...then they solicit me for months on end asking for money. I
don't know whether to laugh or cry?
Charity? Humility? Reciprocity? Freedom of Faith? Truth? And of
course...Love Thy Neighbor as Thyself????
I'm afraid Christians don't practice what they preach...at least at
their forums. (Even the Buddhist whose mantra is 'Do No Harm' ban me
90% of the time at their forums, so they are only a little better than
the Christians.)
Atheist forums are not much better at freethinking. Been banned at
evil bible dot com, ethical atheist, Internet infidels, X-Christians
and others.
How do I find peace with all this prejudice?
By knowing
"With the same material one man builds a palace and another only a
hovel." Russell Cromwell.
and accepting people are not perfect, nor am I perfect which is just
as the Taoists tell us: "fleas come with the dog."
So, my vote?
Seek truth and realize that as Aristotle told us: "It is the mark of
an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting
it and to rest satisfied with the degree of precision which the nature
of the subject admits and not to seek exactness where only an
approximation is possible."
V (male)
Kater Moggin
> Why do I believe inthings I know I can't verify by scientific means? Because
> of an innate need for the Universe to make sense, for the innate need to
> believe that somehwere, somewhow, the universe is a fair and just system,
> and that that if not in this mortal lifetime, there is some mechanism in
> somewhere (and somewhen) that ensures that those who treat others with
> respect, dignity and kindness are recognised, and those who are - by
> evolutionary standards quite successful - but social @ssholes, learn the
> error of their way. I need to believe this.
> After that, it was pretty much a process of researching various belief
> systems for inspiration until I could find a way of satisfying this *desire*
> to 'reach out' in a spiritual way. Its an ongoing process, but an eclectic
> misx of wicca, Quaker-style Christianity and Gnosticism seem to be working
> so far.
> i am well aware it could all be a delusion. I will not be arrogant and say
> 'this is the right way for everybody, follow my way or suffer bad
> consequences'. I can only say 'this works for me'. Other people smoke
> cigarettes drink, chase UFOs or listen to Country and Western.
Apt comparison, since the hymn you're singing is "Stand By
Your Man" inflated to cosmic size.
> Whatever flosts your boat, really, as long as its not doing others a
> disservice.
Fair enough. But try not to do gnosticism a disservice by
confusing it with your religion.
-- Moggin
vf...@aol.com
> v...@aol.com <v...@aol.com>:
>
> ...
>
> More spam from vfr44. He already tried posting this one to
> the web and to alt.religion.
>
> -- Moggin
Since you like water Kater, attacking others is not going to float you
boat either. It will eventually sink it Kater.
I've told you before I am on numerous forums and bring up the same
things pretty much on all of them, to get feedback from all sides of
the discussion.
So stop beating a dead horse.
Can you stick to the question at hand and discuss why people or you
believe in what cannot be seen or proven?
V
Kater Moggin
...
More of vff44's spam. After his brief pretence of replying
to Yowie, the rest is canned. See:
http://groups.google.jo/group/alt.atheism/browse_thread/thread/96
9691b72bbb838d/16a80308577daaba?lnk=raothttp://groups.google.jo/g
roup/alt.atheism/browse_thread/thread/969691b72bbb838d/16a8030857
7daaba?lnk=raot
-- Moggin
Kater Moggin
> I've told you before I am on numerous forums and bring up the same
> things pretty much on all of them, to get feedback from all sides
No, you aren't merely bringing up the same topics: you're
posting the same canned speeches everywhere you go while
tacking on some words at the top to make them seem like replies.
> So stop beating a dead horse.
"FOAD, you spamming asshole," as another of your fans once
said.
-- Moggin
vf...@aol.com
No, I don't.
The tops are replies from other forums that are attributed to
anonymous writers as to protect their identity.
V
vf...@aol.com
That isn't very nice Kater.
Do you remember the post I sent you on finding inner peace???
Words do matter my friend.
People die over taking words too seriously.
People die over taking words not seriously enough.
Words give a glimpse of what our insides are like. I make no demands
that anyone stop using profanities.
I can only bring your attention to the topic of right speech vs wrong
speech, but the direction is totally up to you as to which direction
to take Kater.
Eightfold path of Buddhism: Right Speech
Right speech is the first principle of ethical conduct in the
eightfold path. Ethical conduct is viewed as a guideline to moral
discipline, which supports the other principles of the path. This
aspect is not self-sufficient, however, essential, because mental
purification can only be achieved through the cultivation of ethical
conduct. The importance of speech in the context of Buddhist ethics is
obvious: words can break or save lives, make enemies or friends, start
war or create peace. Buddha explained right speech as follows: 1. to
abstain from false speech, especially not to tell deliberate lies and
not to speak deceitfully, 2. to abstain from slanderous speech and not
to use words maliciously against others, 3. to abstain from harsh
words that offend or hurt others, and 4. to abstain from idle chatter
that lacks purpose or depth. Positively phrased, this means to tell
the truth, to speak friendly, warm, and gently and to talk only when
necessary.
vf...@aol.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
"I need to believe this."
V:
Not clear as to why you need it.
Is it something that supports your life and mental well being?
Some people use religion as an escape or mind concentration.
In general religion and spiritual studies is a good concentration
vehicle unless one if too fanatical and starts killing or hurting
others from their religious convictions.
How has other religions besides gnsotic studies worked in your
toolbvox of support vehicles?
Even atheists need vehicles to escape life.
My atheist friends sometimes use hatred for their mind fix and escape
vehicle.
Also see:
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=63.0
Yowie
news:1180961976....@q66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 4, 2:07?am, "Yowie" <yowie9644.DIESPAM...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>> <v...@aol.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:1180898028.6...@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
<snip>
> ....My discussion of this 'testing' topic from an earlier post.
>
> Censorship...my history with prejudice.
>
>
> (...) writes:
>
> "Should we pursue all possible knowledge or should knowledge be
> censored, edited, selected, maintained, and tampered with so as to
> allow only that which best serves life? Or to put it differently: Is
> ignorance true bliss? And if it is, should we will such ignorance so
> as to better preserve our bliss? Of course, one then must invite the
> question as to whether "bliss" is the final value, the final measure
> of value of a life?"
I don't know who (...) is, but there is this lovely allegory at the start of
the Bible that suggest that total ignorance is total bliss. As soon as the
human gets wind that they don't know everything about everything, as soon as
that seed of doubt is put into their brain, they stop being in the garden of
eden and start having to figure things out for themselves in an often very
painful way.
> I'm afraid Christians don't practice what they preach...at least at
> their forums. (Even the Buddhist whose mantra is 'Do No Harm' ban me
> 90% of the time at their forums, so they are only a little better than
> the Christians.)
I don't think anyone can leave up to their ideals they claim to profess,
Christian or otherwise. Still I'd prefer it that people aimed high and
missed, than aimed low and never jumped at all.
> and accepting people are not perfect, nor am I perfect which is just
> as the Taoists tell us: "fleas come with the dog."
Yup, agreed.
Yowie
Yowie
news:kimmerian-D7F2A...@news.verizon.net...
There's Gnostic - a religion, and gnosticism, the practice of gnosis, which,
if I understand it correctly, is to directly communicate with Deity. I (try)
to practice the latter, and am learning about the former. I would not claim
to be a Gnostic.
Yowie
Yowie
news:1181054008....@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 4, 2:07?am, "Yowie" <yowie9644.DIESPAM...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>> <v...@aol.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:1180898028.6...@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
<snip>
>> Why do I believe inthings I know I can't verify by scientific means?
>> Because
>> of an innate need for the Universe to make sense, for the innate need to
>> believe that somehwere, somewhow, the universe is a fair and just system,
>> and that that if not in this mortal lifetime, there is some mechanism in
>> somewhere (and somewhen) that ensures that those who treat others with
>> respect, dignity and kindness are recognised, and those who are - by
>> evolutionary standards quite successful - but social @ssholes, learn the
>> error of their way.
>>
>> I need to believe this.
> Not clear as to why you need it.
>
> Is it something that supports your life and mental well being?
It supports my mental wellbeing, because I am the sort of person that needs
to make sense and order out of the Universe (whtehr or not the Universe is
sensible and ordered is another discussion :-).
If I *only* believed in evolution as the reason why we are here, then it
would make logical and evolutionary sense to attempt to procreate with the
most evolutionary successful males that I could convince to procreate with
me, whilst trying to ensure that those who are most likely to present
competition to me & my DNA are prevented from doing so.
In otherwords, being an arsehole is a lying, manipulative, oppressive (and
possibly murderous) arsehole is evolutionarily advantagaeous, and if that is
the *only* point to life, then one should not condemn but praise the lying,
cheating manipulative arseholes that spread their seed far and wide, because
they are being the most successful from a purely biological perspective.
Being a lying cheating manipulative oppressive (and possibly murderous)
arsehole is all kind sof wrong, in my opinion. And yet, it seems the
criminally minded are often the most successful in our society. To stay sane
in this world, I need to believe that somewhere along the line those types
of people do *not* benefit from being lying cheating manipulatibe opressive
arseholes, even if htey seem to do so in this lifetime, and that being
helpful, kind, generous and all that other mushy care-bear white light
fluffy bunny stuff is actually the more beneficial to both the individual,
to society and possibly the universe at large.
(and yes, i am aware that 'good' and 'bad' are entirely subjective. But it
stops me going mad with bitter rage for being 'good' at school, paying my
taxes and doing my best to do the Right Thing throughout life and then
seeing the likes of Christopher Skase being rewarded for being all the
things I was taught was wrong. And yes, I am also aware that compared to
most on this planet I am exceptionally lucky and indeed excceptionally rich.
So I guess my faith is the way in which I convince myself my way is the
right way. LOL)
> How has other religions besides gnsotic studies worked in your
> toolbvox of support vehicles?
Wicca turns any outing into nature (even if its just walking up the driveway
to get the mail) into something that can be incredibly spiritual.
Quakerism tells me I don't need to go through empty rituals to get to God,
and that simplicity is spiritually more sensible (fits neatly into Wicca).
Just started on Gnosticism, but it explains some of the stuff in
Christianity that I had always struggled with.
> Even atheists need vehicles to escape life.
World of Warcraft is a good escape :-)
> My atheist friends sometimes use hatred for their mind fix and escape
> vehicle.
>
>
> Also see:
>
>
> http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=63.0
Had a look around the web site a while back, and came to the conclusion it
didn't really matter whether Jesus actually physically existed or not
(although I think he did), the radical message of loving each other like
ourselves was what was important.
Yowie
Kater Moggin
> There's Gnostic - a religion, and gnosticism, the practice of gnosis, which,
> if I understand it correctly, is to directly communicate with Deity.
A misunderstanding. Directly communicating with the deity
or the divine is mysticism in general, while gnosticism
denotes the thinking, history, and practices of the gnostics in
specific. (Folks like the Sethians, the Marcionites, the
Valentinians, and the Naasenes.) Gnosticism characteristically
disparages Creator and Creation, lowering the Creator from
supreme being to inferior demiurge while referring to the world
that he made as a prison, exile, or labryinth in obvious
contrast to your belief "the universe is a fair and just system."
-- Moggin
Kater Moggin
> there is this lovely allegory at the start of
> the Bible that suggest that total ignorance is total bliss. As soon as the
> human gets wind that they don't know everything about everything, as soon as
> that seed of doubt is put into their brain, they stop being in the garden of
> eden and start having to figure things out for themselves in an often very
> painful way.
You might want to look at Genesis again. Adam and Eve are
still in the Garden _after_ eating the apple. Yahweh then
_chooses_ to toss them out, cursing them with various pains and
burdens. He also bars the path back with cherubim and a
flaming, turning sword, implying that they could otherwise have
strolled back in.
Genesis also says that Adam and Eve gain godlike knowledge
of good and evil, not merely the notion "they don't know
everything about everything." Your allegory relies on changing
the story considerably.
-- Moggin
Yowie
From what little I understood, the Demiurge created this world, Earth.
Whether the Demiurge created the rest all physical material, I don't know,
but if he did, there still is no problem (in my line of thinking) that the
universe is a fair and just system, because I consider 'the universe' far
more than just the physical material (e=mc2 included) in it.
If, at some point in an afterlife, people come to see the consequences of
their actions and then learn from such things, then the universe remains a
'fair and just system'.
As said earlier, I'm fairly new to Gnosticism, so I'll get some things
horribly wrong. But when I do, I'm sure people like you will correct me.
BTW, are Rosicrucians or __Builders of the Adytum_ Gnostics?
Yowie
Kater Moggin
> From what little I understood, the Demiurge created this world, Earth.
Seems as though you've been fed bunch of half-truths. The
Demiurge makes this whole world, i.e., the earth and the
heavens, otherwise known as the cosmos. Recall he's modeled in
part on the Creator in the OT.
> Whether the Demiurge created the rest all physical material, I don't know
Again, in gnosticism, the demiurge creates the heavens and
the earth, this world as a whole.
> but if he did, there still is no problem (in my line of thinking) that the
> universe is a fair and just system, because I consider 'the universe' far
> more than just the physical material (e=mc2 included) in it.
> If, at some point in an afterlife, people come to see the consequences of
> their actions and then learn from such things, then the universe remains a
> 'fair and just system'.
In gnosticism the universe is a prison, exile or labyrinth
made by a demiurge who's divided from the true God and
described as evil, arrogant, ignorant, and so on. (The details
vary.) A critical perspective on this world in obvious
contrast with your approving claim it's "a fair and just system."
You were honest enough to admit that you _need_ to believe
in the fairness and justice of the universe. But it so
happens not everybody agrees with you. Gnosticism, e.g., takes
a much more negative view.
Your pro-universe argument looks weak to me, but since you
built it to meet your need to believe, you're the only one
it's got to convince. Just don't confuse your convictions with
gnosticism.
> As said earlier, I'm fairly new to Gnosticism, so I'll get some things
> horribly wrong. But when I do, I'm sure people like you will correct me.
> BTW, are Rosicrucians or __Builders of the Adytum_ Gnostics?
Doesn't seem that way, no, tho the Rosicrucians might have
borrowed some gnostic themes.
-- Moggin
Yowie
> Yowie <yowie9644....@yahoo.com.au>:
>
>> From what little I understood, the Demiurge created this world, Earth.
>
> Seems as though you've been fed bunch of half-truths. The
> Demiurge makes this whole world, i.e., the earth and the
> heavens, otherwise known as the cosmos. Recall he's modeled in
> part on the Creator in the OT.
>
>> Whether the Demiurge created the rest all physical material, I don't know
>
> Again, in gnosticism, the demiurge creates the heavens and
> the earth, this world as a whole.
Ok, thanks for the correction.
>> but if he did, there still is no problem (in my line of thinking) that
>> the
>> universe is a fair and just system, because I consider 'the universe' far
>> more than just the physical material (e=mc2 included) in it.
>> If, at some point in an afterlife, people come to see the consequences of
>> their actions and then learn from such things, then the universe remains
>> a
>> 'fair and just system'.
>
> In gnosticism the universe is a prison, exile or labyrinth
> made by a demiurge who's divided from the true God and
> described as evil, arrogant, ignorant, and so on. (The details
> vary.) A critical perspective on this world in obvious
> contrast with your approving claim it's "a fair and just system."
Yeah, it does clash "just a bit". LOL
> You were honest enough to admit that you _need_ to believe
> in the fairness and justice of the universe. But it so
> happens not everybody agrees with you. Gnosticism, e.g., takes
> a much more negative view.
In Gnosticism, is there a way out of the negativity, can we be freed of this
prison? Again, I thought that Jesus came along to get us out. I'm guessing
I'm wrong on that one too. :-)
Instead of bothering you with a whole bunch of newbie questions, is there a
web site you'd recommend to learn more about *actual* Gnosticism rather than
the bunk I *thought* was Gnosticism?
Thanks,
Yowie
Kater Moggin
> In Gnosticism, is there a way out of the negativity, can we be freed of this
> prison? Again, I thought that Jesus came along to get us out. I'm guessing
> I'm wrong on that one too. :-)
You're o.k. there, with one qualification that I should've
mentioned before. Gnosticism isn't a monolith. Many
different schools and writings, none of them entirely alike and
some with conflicts of their own. The Christian gnostic
schools are by far the best known, but gnosticism isn't limited
to Christianity.
Sure, there are several types of escape from this world in
gnosticism. One of them is the end of the place: the
apocalypse. Another is liberation after death. Gnosis permits
the departed soul or spirit to avoid reincarnation at the
hands of the archons, leave the cosmos behind, and climb to the
divine realm, called the pleroma.
Other possibilities include leaving this world while still
living -- a negative judgment on existence here -- and
resurrection in life but not of the flesh, which begins to make
sense if you know that in gnosticism those living in the
natural world are already dead: an idea you may recognize from
Plato or the canonical NT.
> Instead of bothering you with a whole bunch of newbie questions, is there a
> web site you'd recommend to learn more about *actual* Gnosticism rather than
> the bunk I *thought* was Gnosticism?
Ask whatever you like. If you want a good intro, then I'd
suggest _The Gnostic Religion_, by Hans Jonas, or _Gnosis:
the Nature and History of Gnosticism_, by Kurt Rudolph. Should
be easy to get ahold of either one. They're in print, in
paperback, and usually in the library. I'll post a little from
Jonas to give you the basic idea.
-- Moggin
Isabella
humans. You have been brainwashed since birth to accept certain standards as
the norm. You think they are your own. You have a god, only your god is in
the form of accepted standards, either way, doesn't matter -- same
psychology, same line of fanaticism.
<vf...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1180898028.6...@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
Kater Moggin
> > "FOAD, you spamming asshole," as another of your fans once
> > said.
vf...@aol.com" <vf...@aol.com>:
> That isn't very nice Kater.
That's the kind of response your spamming elicits time and
time again. It's well-deserved.
> Do you remember the post I sent you on finding inner peace???
Do you recall being told to fuck off and die, you spamming
asshole?
> Words do matter my friend.
Evidently words don't matter to you, since you paste yours
indiscriminately and ignore the objections that you get in
reply. Wait, I'm wrong. You were told to "Fuck off and go and
spam some other group." Here you are.
-- Moggin