The Sons of Elrond
Öjevind Lång
Arwen, though for other reasons. Is there any intimation anywhere of what
the reason was, or what became of them?
�jevind
Simon J. Rowe
The only mention I can recall is Letters 153
"Elrond passes Over Sea. The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not
told: they delay their choice, and remain for a while."
Simon
Noel Q. von Schneiffel
As we recently discussed, Tolkien tended to name his characters
according to their professions (e.g. Rohirric kings named "king"). In
this light, Elrohir's name cannot be a coincidence. He must have been
King of the Rohirrim at least for a while.
Elladan, on the other hand, went to the Easterlings and founded a
handcart company. Today, if I am not mistaken, it still produces (now
motorized) carts under the shortened name Lada.
Noel
Steve Morrison
I've looked, and I can't find anything else anywhere. I suppose their
reason was then "to delay their choice", though the question is then
why they wanted to do that. Perhaps it was /because/ of Arwen? After
all, they were in a position where whatever they chose, they would be
separated from either their parents or their sister for as long as the
world lasted; I can't really blame them for not wanting to make that
kind of a choice until they had to.
Öjevind Lång
news:19qdnSEKD_ZnrwbW...@posted.toastnet...
I agree that "delay their choice" sounds reasonable, but in that case, why
didn't Tolkien write that? As it stands, one is given the impression that
they renounced their right to travel west to the Undying Lands.
Öjevind
Jim Heckman
On 13-Mar-2010, Öjevind Lång <ojevin...@bredband.net>
wrote in message <801428...@mid.individual.net>:
> Steve Morrison" <rim...@toast.net> skrev i meddelandet
> news:19qdnSEKD_ZnrwbW...@posted.toastnet...
>
> >>> We are told that Elladan and Elrohir chose to remain in
> >>> Middle-earth, like Arwen, though for other reasons.
Yes, that sounds very familiar, but like Simon and Steve, I can't
seem to find it right now (and I don't have HOME or Letters). Where
are we told this?
The only thing I can find is in Appendix B of ROTR, from a couple
of paragraphs before "The Chief Days from the Fall of the Barad-dūr
to the End of the Third Age":
"But after the passing of Galadriel in a few years Celeborn
grew weary of his realm and went to Imladris to dwell with
the sons of Elrond."
I could swear I also remember something about it not being known
when Celeborn eventually passed Over Sea, "taking with him the last
living memory in Middle-earth of the Elder Days" (paraphrasing).
But I can't seem to find that now, either :-(
> >>> Is there
> >>> any intimation anywhere of what the reason was, or what became
> >>> of them?
> >>
> >> The only mention I can recall is Letters 153
> >>
> >> "Elrond passes Over Sea. The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is
> >> not told: they delay their choice, and remain for a while."
> >>
> >> Simon
> >
> > I've looked, and I can't find anything else anywhere. I suppose their
> > reason was then "to delay their choice", though the question is then
> > why they wanted to do that. Perhaps it was /because/ of Arwen? After
> > all, they were in a position where whatever they chose, they would be
> > separated from either their parents or their sister for as long as the
> > world lasted; I can't really blame them for not wanting to make that
> > kind of a choice until they had to.
>
> I agree that "delay their choice" sounds reasonable, but in that case, why
> didn't Tolkien write that? As it stands, one is given the impression that
> they renounced their right to travel west to the Undying Lands.
I don't remember getting that impression, which is why I think
there must be something about "delaying their choice" also in LOTR,
Silm or UT. If only I could find it...
--
Jim Heckman
Steve Morrison
> I could swear I also remember something about it not being known
> when Celeborn eventually passed Over Sea, "taking with him the last
> living memory in Middle-earth of the Elder Days" (paraphrasing).
> But I can't seem to find that now, either :-(
FOund it! It's at the very end of the Prologue to LotR.
Jim Heckman
On 16-Mar-2010, Steve Morrison <rim...@toast.net>
wrote in message <3uudnerUx7xnOALW...@posted.toastnet>:
Thanks! That's the last place I'd have thought to look. For the
record, it's:
"There [Rivendell], though Elrond had departed, his sons long
remained, together with some of the High-elven folk. It is
said that Celeborn went to dwell there after the departure of
Galadriel; but there is no record of the day when at last he
sought the Grey Havens, and with him went the last living
memory of the Elder Days in Middle-earth."
I wonder if that's the passage Öjevind was thinking of when he
said: "We are told that Elladan and Elrohir chose to remain in
Middle-earth, like Arwen, though for other reasons. [...]"
--
Jim Heckman
Öjevind Lång
news:7-GdnVjfVZY27DzW...@posted.localnet...
Not exclusively. There is some other place where Tolkien writes that Elladan
and Elrohir chose the same fate as Arwen, though for different reasons. I
just haven't been able to remember where. I'm pretty sure it's not in LotR.
Öjevind
Jim Heckman
On 18-Mar-2010, Öjevind Lång <ojevin...@bredband.net>
wrote in message <80e8ht...@mid.individual.net>:
Well, if you do remember where, please let us know. I for one would
be very interested in such a quote, which would put paid to the
clear impression I've always had that Elrond's sons followed their
father to the Undying Lands, after a short period as reckoned by
the Elves. But it wouldn't be the first time I'd have been
disabused of a clear impression regarding something in the
Legendarium! But so far all the quotes I've seen in this thread
seem to reinforce, or at least not contradict, the idea that
Elladan and Elrohir did *not* make the choice of Arwen.
--
Jim Heckman
Steve Morrison
> "Jim Heckman" <rot13(reply-to)@none.invalid> skrev i meddelandet
> news:7-GdnVjfVZY27DzW...@posted.localnet...
(snip)
>> I wonder if that's the passage Öjevind was thinking of when he
>> said: "We are told that Elladan and Elrohir chose to remain in
>> Middle-earth, like Arwen, though for other reasons. [...]"
>
> Not exclusively. There is some other place where Tolkien writes that
> Elladan and Elrohir chose the same fate as Arwen, though for different
> reasons. I just haven't been able to remember where. I'm pretty sure
> it's not in LotR.
>
> Öjevind
I've now checked the Encyclopedia of Arda, Wikipedia, and the Thain's
Book, and none of them say anything at all about what choice Arwen's
brothers ultimately made. I'm starting to doubt whether there is any
answer given in canon; if there is, it's strange that none of the major
online references refer to it.
Darrell Stec
In For All Readers Of J.R.R.Tolkien, A Guide To Middle-Earth by Robert
Foster there is a paragraph: "Elladan and Elohir remained in Imladris well
into the Fourth Age, and since they did not accompany Elrond over Sea they
seem to have chosen to become mortal."
In The Tolkien Companion by J.E.A.Tyler there is one sentence and it too
does not give an explanation: "Like their sister Arwin -- although for
different reasons -- both brothers elected to become of motral-kind." And
under Elrond the Half-elven the book states: "Thus Elrond was finally
reunited with his wife Celebrian (who had gone over Sea long before); but he
was sundered at the last from his sons Elladan and Elrohir, and his beloved
daughter Arwen."
If found no explanation for these opinions.
--
Later,
Darrell
Öjevind Lång
news:80g5mh...@mid.individual.net...
[snip]
> In For All Readers Of J.R.R.Tolkien, A Guide To Middle-Earth by Robert
> Foster there is a paragraph: "Elladan and Elohir remained in Imladris
> well
> into the Fourth Age, and since they did not accompany Elrond over Sea they
> seem to have chosen to become mortal."
>
> In The Tolkien Companion by J.E.A.Tyler there is one sentence and it too
> does not give an explanation: "Like their sister Arwin -- although for
> different reasons -- both brothers elected to become of motral-kind." And
> under Elrond the Half-elven the book states: "Thus Elrond was finally
> reunited with his wife Celebrian (who had gone over Sea long before); but
> he
> was sundered at the last from his sons Elladan and Elrohir, and his
> beloved
> daughter Arwen."
>
> If found no explanation for these opinions.
Foster, especially, is very careful about what he says, so his statement
should be taken seriously. I'll keep looking for the source. I can swear
that the phrase used by Tyler, "Like their sister Arwen -- although for
different reasons -- both brothers elected to become of mortal-kind", is
also used somewhere by Tolkien.
Öjevind
Öjevind Lång
news:80gjlo...@mid.individual.net...
[snip]
I've now been informed that Tolkien touches upon the matter in Letter 153; I
had completely forgotten that. What he says there (in a draft letter never
sent) is: "Elrond passes Over Sea. The fate of his sons, Elladan and
Elrohir, is not told: they delay their choice, and remain for a while." Even
so, I have a nagging feeling that there is something else somewhere, though
possibly from a source as second tier, or whatever one should call it, as an
unmailed letter.
Öjevind
Stan Brown
> ... the clear impression I've always had that Elrond's sons
> followed their father to the Undying Lands, after a short period as
> reckoned by the Elves. ... But so far all the quotes I've seen in
> this thread seem to reinforce, or at least not contradict, the idea
> that Elladan and Elrohir did *not* make the choice of Arwen.
In App A. I.(i) we read, "But to the children of Elrond a choice was
also appointed: to pass with him from the circles of the world; or if
they remained, to become mortal and die in Middle-earth." That says,
unambiguously, that since they did not go with him they became
mortal.
The trouble with that unambiguous statement is that it's contradicted
elsewhere, though I can't remember where. But we've had this
discussion before, so if you check the archives you'll doubtless find
it.
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://mysite.verizon.net/aznirb/mtr/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
Morgoth's Curse
<the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>Thu, 18 Mar 2010 22:57:40 GMT from "Jim Heckman" <"Jim Heckman">:
>
>> ... the clear impression I've always had that Elrond's sons
>> followed their father to the Undying Lands, after a short period as
>> reckoned by the Elves. ... But so far all the quotes I've seen in
>> this thread seem to reinforce, or at least not contradict, the idea
>> that Elladan and Elrohir did *not* make the choice of Arwen.
>
>In App A. I.(i) we read, "But to the children of Elrond a choice was
>also appointed: to pass with him from the circles of the world; or if
>they remained, to become mortal and die in Middle-earth." That says,
>unambiguously, that since they did not go with him they became
>mortal.
Unambiguously? Beg to differ. "To pass with him from the
circles of world" can be interpreted as emigrating to Valinor (which
Iluvatar had removed from the circles of the world) and not
necessarily that the sons of Elrond must leave Middle-earth when he
did. Moreover, I believe that any discussion of the choice of Elladan
and Elrohir must take into account the fact that the _singularity_ of
Arwen's choice is emphasized throughout the legendarium. When Arwen
mentions her choice to Frodo in Minas Tirith, she refers to
Luthien--the only other Elf known to have become mortal. The emphasis
is on a personal rather than collective choice: "for mine is the
choice of Lúthien, and as she so have I chosen, both the sweet and the
bitter." Tolkien could have just as easily written "as she so have
we chosen, both the sweet and the bitter" or "as she so have the
children of Elrond chosen, both the sweet and the bitter."
Tolkien must have been aware that it would create as many
questions as it would answer if all three of Elrond's children made
the same choice. People might wonder why all of his children forsook
Elrond, for example, or whether all three were doomed to remain in
Middle-earth for some unexplained reason. I do not believe that was
Tolkien's intention. I think he just wanted the matter to be another
of the unsolved mysteries which enriches the history of Middle-earth
and makes it unique.
In conclusion, Tolkien noted in Letter #246 that Arwen consulted
with Gandalf before she offered Frodo her place on the ship to
Valinor. As an emissary of the Valar, Gandalf was the only one who
had the necessary authority and I am sure that he had the authority to
grant concessions to the sons of Elrond as well. He could not, of
course, revoke the Valar's decrees, but he could grant an extension.
Gandalf might have perceived, for example, that such of the Noldor who
still dwelt in Middle-earth after the departure of Elrond would need a
refuge before they ultimately sought the Havens. Who better to
maintain Rivendell as such a refuge than the sons of Elrond?
Morgoth's Curse
Öjevind Lång
news:efefq5lq9ra042a5q...@4ax.com...
[snip]
> Unambiguously? Beg to differ. "To pass with him from the
> circles of world" can be interpreted as emigrating to Valinor (which
> Iluvatar had removed from the circles of the world) and not
> necessarily that the sons of Elrond must leave Middle-earth when he
> did. Moreover, I believe that any discussion of the choice of Elladan
> and Elrohir must take into account the fact that the _singularity_ of
> Arwen's choice is emphasized throughout the legendarium. When Arwen
> mentions her choice to Frodo in Minas Tirith, she refers to
> Luthien--the only other Elf known to have become mortal.
Arwen was a Peredhil, a Half-elf. She could choose to join the Elves
permanently, like Eärendil and Elrond, or to become mortal, like Elros and,
probably, Dior. That is to say, she is not completely comparable to Lúthien,
who was indeed the only pure-blooded Elda to choose mortality, and have it
granted to her.
[snip]
> In conclusion, Tolkien noted in Letter #246 that Arwen consulted
> with Gandalf before she offered Frodo her place on the ship to
> Valinor. As an emissary of the Valar, Gandalf was the only one who
> had the necessary authority and I am sure that he had the authority to
> grant concessions to the sons of Elrond as well. He could not, of
> course, revoke the Valar's decrees, but he could grant an extension.
> Gandalf might have perceived, for example, that such of the Noldor who
> still dwelt in Middle-earth after the departure of Elrond would need a
> refuge before they ultimately sought the Havens. Who better to
> maintain Rivendell as such a refuge than the sons of Elrond?
I beg to differ. It seems to me that what Gandalf granted was to let Frodo
go to the Undying Lands instead of Arwen; and even so, Frodo's (and Bilbo's)
stay there was temporary, a time of rest before they died. Gandalf could not
grant anything to the sons of Elrond. Elladan and Elrohir had a choice: to
go to the Undying Lands with their father, or to stay in Middle-earth and
become mortal. This isn't altered by the circumstance that Tolkien himself
was apparently unabe to make up his midn about their final choice.
Öjevind
Stan Brown
<morgoths...@nospam.yahoo.com>:
> On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 20:45:12 -0400, Stan Brown
> <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>
> >Thu, 18 Mar 2010 22:57:40 GMT from "Jim Heckman" <"Jim Heckman">:
> >
> >> ... the clear impression I've always had that Elrond's sons
> >> followed their father to the Undying Lands, after a short period as
> >> reckoned by the Elves. ... But so far all the quotes I've seen in
> >> this thread seem to reinforce, or at least not contradict, the idea
> >> that Elladan and Elrohir did *not* make the choice of Arwen.
> >
> >In App A. I.(i) we read, "But to the children of Elrond a choice was
> >also appointed: to pass with him from the circles of the world; or if
> >they remained, to become mortal and die in Middle-earth." That says,
> >unambiguously, that since they did not go with him they became
> >mortal.
>
> Unambiguously? Beg to differ. "To pass with him from the
> circles of world" can be interpreted as emigrating to Valinor (which
> Iluvatar had removed from the circles of the world) and not
> necessarily that the sons of Elrond must leave Middle-earth when he
> did.
I don't know how else one would interpret the words "pass with him".
Any interpretation of "with him" to mean "at a different time" just
does violence to the language -- like the US Supreme Court deciding
that "all crimes" in the sixth amendment to the US constitution
actually means "some crimes".
Morgoth's Curse
<ojevin...@bredband.net> wrote:
>"Morgoth's Curse" <morgoths...@nospam.yahoo.com> skrev i meddelandet
>news:efefq5lq9ra042a5q...@4ax.com...
>
>[snip]
>
>> Unambiguously? Beg to differ. "To pass with him from the
>> circles of world" can be interpreted as emigrating to Valinor (which
>> Iluvatar had removed from the circles of the world) and not
>> necessarily that the sons of Elrond must leave Middle-earth when he
>> did. Moreover, I believe that any discussion of the choice of Elladan
>> and Elrohir must take into account the fact that the _singularity_ of
>> Arwen's choice is emphasized throughout the legendarium. When Arwen
>> mentions her choice to Frodo in Minas Tirith, she refers to
>> Luthien--the only other Elf known to have become mortal.
>
>
>Arwen was a Peredhil, a Half-elf. She could choose to join the Elves
>permanently, like Eärendil and Elrond, or to become mortal, like Elros and,
>probably, Dior. That is to say, she is not completely comparable to Lúthien,
>who was indeed the only pure-blooded Elda to choose mortality, and have it
>granted to her.
I am aware of that. The point is the exceptional nature of Luthien's
choice--a similarity which is emphasized by both those who chronicled
her life in the appendixes and Arwen herself. The emphasis is always
on a personal choice rather than a collective choice. If Elladan and
Elrohir had made the same choice, then the significance of her choice
is altered and somewhat diminished.
>[snip]
>
>> In conclusion, Tolkien noted in Letter #246 that Arwen consulted
>> with Gandalf before she offered Frodo her place on the ship to
>> Valinor. As an emissary of the Valar, Gandalf was the only one who
>> had the necessary authority and I am sure that he had the authority to
>> grant concessions to the sons of Elrond as well. He could not, of
>> course, revoke the Valar's decrees, but he could grant an extension.
>> Gandalf might have perceived, for example, that such of the Noldor who
>> still dwelt in Middle-earth after the departure of Elrond would need a
>> refuge before they ultimately sought the Havens. Who better to
>> maintain Rivendell as such a refuge than the sons of Elrond?
>
>I beg to differ. It seems to me that what Gandalf granted was to let Frodo
>go to the Undying Lands instead of Arwen; and even so, Frodo's (and Bilbo's)
>stay there was temporary, a time of rest before they died. Gandalf could not
>grant anything to the sons of Elrond. Elladan and Elrohir had a choice: to
>go to the Undying Lands with their father, or to stay in Middle-earth and
>become mortal. This isn't altered by the circumstance that Tolkien himself
>was apparently unabe to make up his midn about their final choice.
But your argument overlooks the fact that Bilbo and Frodo were mortal.
As Tolkien notes, Arwen could not simply offer Frodo the opportunity
to visit Valinor which was strictly forbidden to mortals. That
required the intercession of the Valar of which Gandalf was an
emissary. In other words, you underestimate the significance of
Gandalf's decision. The fact that their sojourn in the Undying Lands
was only temporary is not nearly as significant as the fact that Bilbo
and Frodo had received a grace which had formerly been denied to every
other mortal.
I agree that Gandalf could not postpone Elladan & Elrohir's
choice indefinitely--that would be, as I acknowledged earlier, a
violation of the Valar's decree that each of Elrond's children must
eventually choose whether to be accounted Elf or Man. He could,
however, extend the deadline for a short time. Elrond's choice to
depart was motivated as much by the failure of the Three as any other
factor. Neither of his sons had ever borne a ring, however, and
possibly were not yet weary of Middle-earth as their father and
Galadriel were. Therefore Gandalf could grant an extension--he might
stipulate that Elladan and Elrohir could postpone their choice so as
long as Arwen lived, for example, but then it must ultimately be made.
Such an act of mercy would be characteristic of Gandalf. Arwen had
already bid farewell to her father forever when she wed Aragorn;
surely she was entitled to enjoy an occasional visit with her beloved
siblings before they were sundered forever? It should not be
forgotten that Elladan and Elrohir had fought long and frequently
during the Third Age, hunting and slaying orcs and other servants of
Sauron in Eriador, and therefore likely did not spend as much time
with Arwen as her father had.
Morgoth's Curse
Öjevind Lång
Possibly, but that doesn't alter what Tolkien wrote. Arwen chose mortality;
by one statement from Tolkien, so did Elladan and Elrohir. We are told that
all Peredhil, from Eärendil and Elwing onwards, had a choice between
becoming mortal or throw in their lot with the Elves, and Arwen wasn't the
first of them to choose mortality.
[snip]
>>I beg to differ. It seems to me that what Gandalf granted was to let Frodo
>>go to the Undying Lands instead of Arwen; and even so, Frodo's (and
>>Bilbo's)
>>stay there was temporary, a time of rest before they died. Gandalf could
>>not
>>grant anything to the sons of Elrond. Elladan and Elrohir had a choice: to
>>go to the Undying Lands with their father, or to stay in Middle-earth and
>>become mortal. This isn't altered by the circumstance that Tolkien himself
>>was apparently unabe to make up his midn about their final choice.
>
> But your argument overlooks the fact that Bilbo and Frodo were mortal.
> As Tolkien notes, Arwen could not simply offer Frodo the opportunity
> to visit Valinor which was strictly forbidden to mortals. That
> required the intercession of the Valar of which Gandalf was an
> emissary. In other words, you underestimate the significance of
> Gandalf's decision. The fact that their sojourn in the Undying Lands
> was only temporary is not nearly as significant as the fact that Bilbo
> and Frodo had received a grace which had formerly been denied to every
> other mortal.
Oh, I agree. I was merely saying that it was apparently in Gandalf's power
to grant was passage to the Undying Lands for Frodo and Bilbo - for a while;
and that that was the only thing in this context he had power over. The
choice of the Peredhil was theirs without Gandalf being involved in any way,
> I agree that Gandalf could not postpone Elladan & Elrohir's
> choice indefinitely--that would be, as I acknowledged earlier, a
> violation of the Valar's decree that each of Elrond's children must
> eventually choose whether to be accounted Elf or Man. He could,
> however, extend the deadline for a short time. Elrond's choice to
> depart was motivated as much by the failure of the Three as any other
> factor. Neither of his sons had ever borne a ring, however, and
> possibly were not yet weary of Middle-earth as their father and
> Galadriel were. Therefore Gandalf could grant an extension--he might
> stipulate that Elladan and Elrohir could postpone their choice so as
> long as Arwen lived, for example, but then it must ultimately be made.
> Such an act of mercy would be characteristic of Gandalf. Arwen had
> already bid farewell to her father forever when she wed Aragorn;
> surely she was entitled to enjoy an occasional visit with her beloved
> siblings before they were sundered forever? It should not be
> forgotten that Elladan and Elrohir had fought long and frequently
> during the Third Age, hunting and slaying orcs and other servants of
> Sauron in Eriador, and therefore likely did not spend as much time
> with Arwen as her father had.
Where did you find the information that Gandalf could extend the deadline?
I'm even doubtful that he really made the choice regarding Frodo and Bilbo.
To me it seems more likely that he was a sort of conduit for the will of the
Valar.
As for Elrond's choice to depart, he simply had to choose between
accepting mortality or departing once the Third Age was over; Tolkien does
say that the choice became acute at that time, since the Fourth Age was the
Age of Men. Later on, he contradicted himself by saying that Elladan and
Elrohir "postponed" their decision, but I regard that as one of the many
strange things he scribbled years after LotR had been published. That may
sound dismissive, but I don't think such later musings can possibly be
regarded as canonical.
I think the brothers found quite a lot of time to spend with their sister
before she departed; they lived under the same roof for three thousand
years! Forays to kill orcs may have detracted some years from that, but it
still makes for a lot of quality time together.
Öjevind
TT Arvind
> Possibly, but that doesn't alter what Tolkien wrote. Arwen chose mortality;
> by one statement from Tolkien, so did Elladan and Elrohir. We are told that
> all Peredhil, from Eärendil and Elwing onwards, had a choice between
> becoming mortal or throw in their lot with the Elves, and Arwen wasn't the
> first of them to choose mortality.
On a slight tangent, was the choice offered to all Half-elven, or was
it only to the descendants of Earendil and Elwing? Is there anything
to suggest that - for example - Galador or Gilmith, as children of
Mithrellas and Imrazôr, had a choice as to which side they wished to
join?
--
Arvind
Öjevind Lång
news:8cf61dbf-39e9-4c3e...@k17g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
I believe the choice was only extended to the offspring from marriages
between Eldar.
Öjevind
Troels Forchhammer
"Öjevind_Lång" <ojevin...@bredband.net> spoke
these staves:
> "Darrell Stec" <dar...@neo.rr.com> skrev i meddelandet
> news:80g5mh...@mid.individual.net...
>
> [snip]
>
>> In For All Readers Of J.R.R.Tolkien, A Guide To Middle-Earth by
>> Robert Foster there is a paragraph: "Elladan and Elohir remained
>> in Imladris well into the Fourth Age, and since they did not
>> accompany Elrond over Sea they seem to have chosen to become
>> mortal."
[...]
> Foster, especially, is very careful about what he says, so his
> statement should be taken seriously. I'll keep looking for the
> source.
Foster only lists LotR references, which means that he is basing this
view on the statement saying a) that Elrond's children had to either
go to Valinor with him or to become mortal and b) the fact that
Elladan and Elrohir did not go on the same ship as Elrond.
I agree that this would seem to indicate that they chose to become
mortals, but, as Foster implies by his use of 'seems', it is not a
certain thing.
> I can swear that the phrase used by Tyler, "Like their sister
> Arwen -- although for different reasons -- both brothers elected
> to become of mortal-kind", is also used somewhere by Tolkien.
I, on the other hand, believe that I recall that Tolkien stated
somewhere that Elladan and Elrohir did choose to go to Valinor so
that 'with' was not necessarily to mean on the same ship or at the
same time. I'll have to search for it later.
--
Troels Forchhammer <troelsfo(a)googlewave.com>
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.
This isn't right. This isn't even wrong.
- Wolfgang Pauli, on a paper submitted by a physicist colleague
(Thus speaks the quantum physicist)
Troels Forchhammer
Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> spoke these staves:
> In message <news:80gjlo...@mid.individual.net>
> "Öjevind_Lång" <ojevin...@bredband.net> spoke
> these staves:
>>
<snip>
>> I can swear that the phrase used by Tyler, "Like their sister
>> Arwen -- although for different reasons -- both brothers elected
>> to become of mortal-kind", is also used somewhere by Tolkien.
>
> I, on the other hand, believe that I recall that Tolkien stated
> somewhere that Elladan and Elrohir did choose to go to Valinor so
> that 'with' was not necessarily to mean on the same ship or at the
> same time. I'll have to search for it later.
Hmm -- either memory fails both of us or the passage (or possibly
passageS -- there is nothing to prevent both of us from being
correct) is more elusive than one would think ;-)
Of authoritative sources, Foster uses _The Hobbit_, _The Lord of the
Rings_, _The Silmarillion_, _The Adventures of Tom Bombadil_, _The
Road Goes Ever On_ and the 'Guide to Names' now most easily found in
Hammond and Scull's _Reader's Companion_. For the entry about Elladan
(and Elrohir), however, he only cites LotR, so I think we can safely
presume that there is nothing to be found in these other sources.
This means that the evidence that was published in Tolkien's lifetime
is all in LotR and includes the following passages:
There [in Rivendell], though Elrond had departed, his sons
long remained, together with some of the High-elven folk.
(Prologue 'Note on the Shire Records')
But to the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed:
to pass with him from the circles of the world; or if they
remained, to become mortal and die in Middle-earth.
(Appendix A I (i) Nśmenor
To this passage Hammond and Scull note in the _Reader's Guide_ that:
Since it is said at the end of the Prolouge (p. 15, I: 25)
that 'though Elrond had departed, his sons long remained'
in Rivendell, some readers have assumed that Elladan and
Elrohir, like their sister Arwen, chose to be of mortal
kind. But in his draft letter to Peter Hastings in
September 1954 Tolkien said that the end of Elladan and
Elrohier 'is not told: they delay their choice, and remain
for a while' (_Letters_ p. 193)
(_Reader's Companion_ in commentary on 1035 (III: 315), p. 684)
But after the passing of Galadriel in a few years Celeborn
grew weary of his realm and went to Imladris to dwell with
the sons of Elrond.
(Appendix B - The Great Years)
The suggestion in the passage from Appendix A is that their choice
had to be made by the time Elrond left Middle-earth and that they
would become mortal if they stayed behind. This is also suggested in
the drafts to the Tale of Years:
These children were three parts of Elven-race, but the doom
spoken at their birth was that they should live even as the
Elves so long as their father remained in Middle-earth; but
if he departed they should have then the choice either to
pass over the Sea with him, or to become mortal, if they
remained behind.
(PoMe - 1 VIII 'The Tale of Years of the Third Age' p. 234f)
The drafts to Appendix A set another requirement: the marrying of a
mortal:
But to the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed:
to pass with him from the circles of the world; or if they
wedded with one of Mankind, to become mortal and die in
Middle-earth.
(PoMe - 1 IX 'The Making of Appendix A' p. 257)
This is linked also to the 'Drowning of Anadūnė' published in _Sauron
Defeated_ (HoMe 9), from whence some of these passages seem to
derive:
And Elrond chose to remain with the Firstborn, and to him
the life of the Firstborn was given, and yet a grace was
added, that choice was never annulled, and while the world
lasted he might return, if he would, to mortal men, and die.
(_Sauron Defeated_ part 3 I (i) 'The third version of
_The Fall of Nśmenor_' p.333)
This is curious in that it seems to allow the choice to be deferred
indefinitely -- presumably, at this point, the same would have
applied to the children of Elrond, though I believe the text is
written before any of Elrond's children had emerged.
Together with this is only the statement in letter #153 that 'The end
of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told: they delay their
choice, and remain for a while.' While this letter is from 1954 and
thus quite close to the actual release of the book, it is also a
draft and we cannot know what was eventually sent to Mr Hastings.
In letter #154 (to Naomi Mitchison in September 1954) we find another
statement of a recurring theme:
The Half-elven, such as Elrond and Arwen, can choose to
which kind and fate they shall belong: choose once and for
all. Hence the grief at the parting of Elrond and Arwen.
(_Letters_ #154)
Here as elsewhere it is the fate of _Arwen_ alone that is emphasized:
nowhere is the eventual fate of Elladan and Elrohir mentioned, bout
wouldn't the parting of Elrond from his sons -- in particular after
having parted forever with his daughter -- would have been equally
painful if he _knew_ that it was also a parting of fate? Whatever the
meaning of it all, and whatever the eventual conclusion, if any, I
agree with Morgoth's Curse that we must take into account the fact of
the emphasis on the singularity of Arwen's choice and the very strong
emotional response her choice is portrayed as evoking.
Of other sources that Foster does not use I have found nothing
relevant in UT or in any of the other HoMe volumes (they are, of
course, mentioned in the History of LotR, but nothing there that
further illuminates this question).
Overall the evidence in LotR specifically dealing with the sons of
Elrond clearly point to Elladan and Elrohir defaulting to the
mortality of Men when their father sailed with the other Keepers to
Valinor, but the emphasis on Arwen's choice suggests that the choice
of her brothers was different. The statement in the letter to Peter
Hastings that Elladan and Elrohir were able to delay their choice is
roughly contemporary with the statements in the appendices of LotR,
and so may imply that this was what Tolkien intended when saying that
the brethren remained in Rivendell after the departure of their
father, but in the end it doesn't help us divine what their choice
finally was.
In the end I don't think we will find anything to add to Hammond and
Scull's conclusion as evidenced in the index referring to the passage
quoted above. For Elladan -- 'choice uncertain 684'. If any of the
passages we believed to remember had actually existed, then surely
Hammond and Scull would have referred to them.
--
Troels Forchhammer <troelsfo(a)googlewave.com>
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.
If quantum mechanics hasn't profoundly shocked you, you
haven't understood it yet.
- Niels Bohr (1885-1962)
Steve Morrison
> Of other sources that Foster does not use I have found nothing
> relevant in UT or in any of the other HoMe volumes (they are, of
> course, mentioned in the History of LotR, but nothing there that
> further illuminates this question).
I've recently finished a re-reading of UT and I can guarantee
that there's nothing in there which helps.
TT Arvind
[Whether the descendents of Mithrellas and Imrazôr were given the
choice of kindred]
> I believe the choice was only extended to the offspring from marriages
> between Eldar.
Even narrower than that, possibly. I don't think there's any hint
that Dior, Eluréd or Elurín were given the choice - which presumably
means they ended up being treated as human rather than elven.
--
Arvind
Öjevind Lång
news:696b2442-68bb-42e7...@q16g2000yqq.googlegroups.com...
I always felt that they probably ended up in the Undying Lands. Since they
were murdered before they could makew the Chocie, it's impossible to tell.
Öjevind
Dirk Thierbach
> Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> spoke these staves:
>>> I can swear that the phrase used by Tyler, "Like their sister
>>> Arwen -- although for different reasons -- both brothers elected
>>> to become of mortal-kind", is also used somewhere by Tolkien.
>> I, on the other hand, believe that I recall that Tolkien stated
>> somewhere that Elladan and Elrohir did choose to go to Valinor so
>> that 'with' was not necessarily to mean on the same ship or at the
>> same time. I'll have to search for it later.
> Hmm -- either memory fails both of us or the passage (or possibly
> passageS -- there is nothing to prevent both of us from being
> correct) is more elusive than one would think ;-)
I dug up the following thread:
where David Salo says that "the choices of Elladan and Elrohir are
never revealed". That was 1998, and assuming David Salo knows all
available sources well enough, if Tolkien indeed says anything
explicit, it must have been published later than that.
- Dirk
Öjevind Lång
news:20100324104948...@dthierbach.news.arcor.de...
I suppose we'll have to be satisfied with that.
Öjevind
Steve Morrison
Interestingly, a certain former participant in these groups recently
offered an opinion on that very topic:
http://www.sf-fandom.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=32736
BTW, are we still afraid to use his full name? He seems to be
ignoring Usenet altogether these days. Although I'd just hate it if,
after someone broke the Taboo on his name, Snatchers were to appear
and haul us all off to Malfoy Manor for interrogation...
Troels Forchhammer
<news:20100324104948...@dthierbach.news.arcor.de>
Dirk Thierbach <dthie...@usenet.arcornews.de> spoke these staves:
>
> Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@thisisfake.invalid> wrote:
>>
<snip>
>> Hmm -- either memory fails both of us or the passage (or possibly
>> passageS -- there is nothing to prevent both of us from being
>> correct) is more elusive than one would think ;-)
>
> I dug up the following thread:
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.books.tolkien/browse_thread
> /thread/afd2ec45a7fc4f3d/1b0f3c5662a8cc16
>
> where David Salo says that "the choices of Elladan and Elrohir are
> never revealed". That was 1998, and assuming David Salo knows all
> available sources well enough, if Tolkien indeed says anything
> explicit, it must have been published later than that.
It is also the conclusion that Wayne and Christina reach in their
_Reader's Companion_ (mine is the 2005 edition), and I am convinced
that if there was any available evidence, they would know (I hold both
the extent of their knowledge of the sources and their critical
evaluation of these sources in the very highest regard).
Additionally, there is no hint of anything related to this on their
'Addenda and Corrigenda' page.
--
Troels Forchhammer <troelsfo(a)googlewave.com>
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.
Behold! we are not bound for ever to the circles of the
world, and beyond them is more than memory, Farewell!
- Aragorn, /The Lord of the Rings/ (J.R.R. Tolkien)
Öjevind Lång
"Steve Morrison" <rim...@toast.net> skrev i meddelandet
news:Qq-dnQJS77-XzzfW...@posted.toastnet...
> TT Arvind wrote:
>> On 23 Mar, 10:50, Öjevind Lång <ojevind.l...@bredband.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Possibly, but that doesn't alter what Tolkien wrote. Arwen chose
>>> mortality;
>>> by one statement from Tolkien, so did Elladan and Elrohir. We are told
>>> that
>>> all Peredhil, from Eärendil and Elwing onwards, had a choice between
>>> becoming mortal or throw in their lot with the Elves, and Arwen wasn't
>>> the
>>> first of them to choose mortality.
>>
>> On a slight tangent, was the choice offered to all Half-elven, or was
>> it only to the descendants of Earendil and Elwing? Is there anything
>> to suggest that - for example - Galador or Gilmith, as children of
>> Mithrellas and Imrazôr, had a choice as to which side they wished to
>> join?
>>
>> --
>> Arvind
>
> Interestingly, a certain former participant in these groups recently
> offered an opinion on that very topic:
>
> http://www.sf-fandom.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=32736
I notice, that Martinez is a categorical as ever. It is evident from this
statement of his: "Dior and his sons were given no such choice." Actually,
we simply don't know whether they were.
> BTW, are we still afraid to use his full name? He seems to be
> ignoring Usenet altogether these days. Although I'd just hate it if,
> after someone broke the Taboo on his name, Snatchers were to appear
> and haul us all off to Malfoy Manor for interrogation...
I wouldn't be afraid to do so. By now, if he would (unlikely in itself)
turn up here, people would simply ignore him after a while. When he was the
bane of these newsgroups many years ago, he had first established himself as
a serious scholar, and when he ceased to be that, there were numerous
sycophants who still perpetrated the myth that he was. Now he's just another
Internet eccentric.
Öjevind
Troels Forchhammer
Steve Morrison <rim...@toast.net> spoke these staves:
> BTW, are we still afraid to use his full name?
Why should we? I may not be particularly impressed with Michael
Martinez' ability to draw conclusions from his genuinely impressive
knowledge of Tolkien's writings, but that might merely be a source of
some good discussions should he come by.
> He seems to be ignoring Usenet altogether these days.
It's been quite a while, yes, but then most of the people he used to
fight have become deplorably rare posters these days.
--
Troels Forchhammer <troelsfo(a)googlewave.com>
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.
Men, said the Devil,
are good to their brothers:
they don't want to mend
their own ways, but each other's.
- Piet Hein, /Mankind/
Troels Forchhammer
<ojevin...@bredband.net> spoke these staves:
> I notice, that Martinez is a categorical as ever. It is evident
> from this statement of his: "Dior and his sons were given no such
> choice." Actually, we simply don't know whether they were.
Actually if we go by the published _Silmarillion_ Michael is right:
And this is my decree concerning them: to Eärendil and to
Elwing, and to their sons, shall be given leave each to
choose freely to which kindred their fates shall be joined,
and under which kindred they shall be judged.
(Silm III, 24 'Of the Voyage of Eärendil and the War of Wrath')
According this the choice is given exclusively to Eärendil, Elwing and
their descendants (only their sons are mentioned, but we know that
Elrond's children eventually inherited the choice). Since Dior and his
sons were already dead their fate was presumably also finally settled
already (since Dior was the son of, at that point, two mortals, and
given that there is never any question of the fates of the line of Dol
Amroth, I consider it most likely that their _fëar_ had already left
the Circles of Arda).
I admit that I haven't bothered to check the various HoMe versions of
this tale (there is something in the Sketch and the Quenta and possibly
also in the Grey Annals -- I don't think the later QS ever reaches this
point).
--
Troels Forchhammer <troelsfo(a)googlewave.com>
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.
They both savoured the strange warm glow of being much
more ignorant than ordinary people, who were only ignorant
of ordinary things.
- Discworld scientists at work, /Equal Rites/ (Terry Pratchett)
TT Arvind
wrote:
> I admit that I haven't bothered to check the various HoMe versions of
> this tale (there is something in the Sketch and the Quenta and possibly
> also in the Grey Annals -- I don't think the later QS ever reaches this
> point).
The textual history of the choice is actually fairly interesting.
With apologies for its length, I'm posting an excerpt from a piece
about the nature of the peredhil which I wrote some years ago for my
university's Tolkien Society:
The Choice in the early texts
The first references to the Choice appear in three passages in HoME
IV, quoted below. These passages, however, largely deal with the
choice of Elrond to stay back in ME and, presumably (the reference to
the blood of Hurin and the Elves coming through to men through him),
live as an Atan. Interestingly, in the second of these quotes, the
text indicates that Elrond was offered the option to depart not due to
his Elven blood, but due to his being of the people of Hador and
Beor. There does not seem to be any reference in these texts to
Elwing or Earendil being allowed to choose the kindred to which they
belonged.
"Their son (Elrond) who is half-mortal and half-elfin, a child, was
saved however by Maidros. When later the Elves return to the West,
bound by his mortal half he elects to stay on earth. Through him the
blood of Hurin (his great- uncle) and of the Elves is yet among
Men, and is seen yet in valour and in beauty and in poetry." (HoME
IV, /The Earliest Silmarillion/ S. 17)
"...and with the Elves should those of the race of Hador and Beor
alone be suffered to depart, if they would. But of these only Elrond
was now left, the Half-elfin; and [he] elected to remain, being bound
by his mortal blood in love to those of the younger race; and of
Elrond alone has the blood of the elder race and of the seed divine of
Valinor come among mortal Men". (HoME IV, /The Quenta/, S. 17-QI)
"And among these were Maglor as has been told; and with him Elrond
the Half-elfin, who after went among mortal Men again, and from whom
alone the blood of the elder race and the seed divine of Valinor have
come among Mankind (for he was son of Elwing, daughter of Dior, son
of Luthien, child of Thingol and Melian; and Earendel his sire was son
of Idril Celebrindal, the fair maid of Gondolin)." (HoME IV, /The
Quenta/, S. 18-QII)
The "more developed" conception of the Choice, which is familiar to us
from the LoTR and the published Sil., first appears in the draft of
the conclusion of the Silmarillion in HoME V. As in the published
Sil., it appears in connection with Earendil's voyage to Valinor, and
the Valar's debate on how to deal with Earendil and Elwing. As in the
published Sil., Manwe offers them a choice of which kindred to join.
However, this text makes an explicit linkage between the presence of
mortal blood and the fate of a peredhel:
[Manwe said:] "Now all those who have the blood of mortal men, in
whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be
granted to them; but in this matter the power of doom is given to
me." (HoME V, /The conclusion of the Quenta Silmarillion/, S. 9).
HoME V indicates that, unless offerred the Choice, all the peredhil
would be treated as being Atani. It is interesting to note that this
link does not occur in the published Silmarillion. This portion of
the manuscript does not, however, appear to have been rewritten by
JRRT to differ significantly from the form published in HoME V (See
CT's editorial comments in HoME XI, /The Later Quenta Silmarillion/ on
the conclusion of the Sil.) CT doubtless had good reasons for
departing from this wording in the published Silmarillion, but I'm not
sure what they are. It may be that I'm misreading his editorial
comments in HoME XI.
--
Arvind
Morgoth's Curse
<Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
>In message <news:Qq-dnQJS77-XzzfW...@posted.toastnet>
>Steve Morrison <rim...@toast.net> spoke these staves:
>>
>> BTW, are we still afraid to use his full name?
>
>Why should we? I may not be particularly impressed with Michael
>Martinez' ability to draw conclusions from his genuinely impressive
>knowledge of Tolkien's writings, but that might merely be a source of
>some good discussions should he come by.
>
>> He seems to be ignoring Usenet altogether these days.
>
>It's been quite a while, yes, but then most of the people he used to
>fight have become deplorably rare posters these days.
And, since Conrad Dunkerson has also disappeared, I suppose that the
theory that Conrad Dunkerson and Michael Martinez are one and the same
has now been proven correct.
< whistles innocently >
Morgoth's Curse
Öjevind Lång
> On Mar 24, 9:53 pm, Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> I admit that I haven't bothered to check the various HoMe versions of
>> this tale (there is something in the Sketch and the Quenta and possibly
>> also in the Grey Annals -- I don't think the later QS ever reaches this
>> point).
>
> The textual history of the choice is actually fairly interesting.
> With apologies for its length, I'm posting an excerpt from a piece
> about the nature of the peredhil which I wrote some years ago for my
> university's Tolkien Society:
>
> The Choice in the early texts
[snip]
> "And among these were Maglor as has been told; and with him Elrond
> the Half-elfin, who after went among mortal Men again, and from whom
> alone the blood of the elder race and the seed divine of Valinor have
> come among Mankind (for he was son of Elwing, daughter of Dior, son
> of Luthien, child of Thingol and Melian; and Earendel his sire was son
> of Idril Celebrindal, the fair maid of Gondolin)." (HoME IV, /The
> Quenta/, S. 18-QII)
Clearly, Tolkien changed his mind later, since the seed of Valinor most
emphatically also d scended among Men through Elrond's brother Elros. In
fact, most Dúnedain after the Fall must have beend escended from Luthien,
even though Tolkien had too much beer at the pub one day and declared that
said descendants only married each other. This 100% apartheid would simply
not have been possible, though naturally a racistic prediclection only to
marry other (known) descendants of Beren and Lúthien would have been.
Öjevind
Öjevind Lång
news:Xns9D45E8CF...@130.133.4.11...
> In message <news:80ved3...@mid.individual.net> Öjevind Lång
> <ojevin...@bredband.net> spoke these staves:
>>
>> I notice, that Martinez is a categorical as ever. It is evident
>> from this statement of his: "Dior and his sons were given no such
>> choice." Actually, we simply don't know whether they were.
>
> Actually if we go by the published _Silmarillion_ Michael is right:
> And this is my decree concerning them: to Eärendil and to
> Elwing, and to their sons, shall be given leave each to
> choose freely to which kindred their fates shall be joined,
> and under which kindred they shall be judged.
> (Silm III, 24 'Of the Voyage of Eärendil and the War of Wrath')
>
> According this the choice is given exclusively to Eärendil, Elwing and
> their descendants (only their sons are mentioned, but we know that
> Elrond's children eventually inherited the choice). Since Dior and his
> sons were already dead their fate was presumably also finally settled
> already (since Dior was the son of, at that point, two mortals, and
> given that there is never any question of the fates of the line of Dol
> Amroth, I consider it most likely that their _fëar_ had already left
> the Circles of Arda).
Dior, however, was married to Nimloth, a full-blooded Elf, so I would regard
it as more likely that he went to Aman. It would be very unlike Tolkien to
separate a married couple forever, unless one of them was a real scoundrel.
And with Dior and Nimloth their two little sons would probably go.
Öjevind
TT Arvind
> Clearly, Tolkien changed his mind later, since the seed of Valinor most
> emphatically also d scended among Men through Elrond's brother Elros.
Yes, clearly. In those early texts, Elros didn't exist. And in early
versions of the Tale of Turin, Brandir (or rather, the character who
was eventually replaced by Brandir, he was called something different
at that stage) is almost casually described as Half-elven, which to my
mind at least suggests that JRRT at the time thought elf-human
pairings were very common (although he probably never envisioned them
being as common as fanfic writers nowadays). His ideas on the half-
elven and the significance of being half-elven seem to have changed
quite dramatically over time.
--
Arvind
Öjevind Lång
"TT Arvind" <ttar...@hotmail.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:e984d2d8-0302-4aea...@h18g2000yqo.googlegroups.com...
> On Mar 25, 11:58 am, Öjevind Lång <ojevind.l...@bredband.net> wrote:
>
>> Clearly, Tolkien changed his mind later, since the seed of Valinor most
>> emphatically also d scended among Men through Elrond's brother Elros.
>
> Yes, clearly. In those early texts, Elros didn't exist.
I haven't read all of Tolkien's scribbles and rough drafts, nor do I intend
to. However, condensed information of what they contain can sometimes be
interesting.
> And in early
> versions of the Tale of Turin, Brandir (or rather, the character who
> was eventually replaced by Brandir, he was called something different
> at that stage) is almost casually described as Half-elven, which to my
> mind at least suggests that JRRT at the time thought elf-human
> pairings were very common (although he probably never envisioned them
> being as common as fanfic writers nowadays). His ideas on the half-
> elven and the significance of being half-elven seem to have changed
> quite dramatically over time.
I suppose Imrahil's partially Elvish (thouggh non-Elda) descent is a
reminsiscence of those earlier, more spacious times.
Öjevind
Stan Brown
<ojevin...@bredband.net>:
> As for Elrond's choice to depart, he simply had to choose between
> accepting mortality or departing once the Third Age was over; Tolkien does
> say that the choice became acute at that time, since the Fourth Age was the
> Age of Men. Later on, he contradicted himself by saying that Elladan and
> Elrohir "postponed" their decision, but I regard that as one of the many
> strange things he scribbled years after LotR had been published. That may
> sound dismissive, but I don't think such later musings can possibly be
> regarded as canonical.
Thank you! You've articulated very clearly a nagging unease that
I've had for a long time.
We are all so used to the immense pains that he took over the
published works, or the works that he intended to publish, that I
think subconsciously I tend to give great weight to *everything* he
wrote. but as I'm re-reading letters I'm finding again and again
that he contradicts himself. For instance, in one letter he refers
multiple times to "the Trilogy" but then in a later letter he rather
testily says that the LotR is "of course" not a trilogy. And he has
made some outright slips (though I can't think of an example at the
moment).
I think we have to accept that somethings he just dashed off without
giving them a lot of thought. he should perhaps have written
IDHTBIFOM on some of his letters!
Stan Brown
<ttar...@hotmail.com>:
>
> On 23 Mar, 10:50, Öjevind Lång <ojevind.l...@bredband.net> wrote:
>
> > Possibly, but that doesn't alter what Tolkien wrote. Arwen chose mortality;
> > by one statement from Tolkien, so did Elladan and Elrohir. We are told that
> > all Peredhil, from Eärendil and Elwing onwards, had a choice between
> > becoming mortal or throw in their lot with the Elves, and Arwen wasn't the
> > first of them to choose mortality.
>
> On a slight tangent, was the choice offered to all Half-elven, or was
> it only to the descendants of Earendil and Elwing?
That *was* all the half-elven. :-)
> Is there anything to suggest that - for example - Galador or
> Gilmith, as children of Mithrellas and Imrazôr, had a choice as to
> which side they wished to join?
I had always understood that the Peredhil referred to descendants of
Calaquendi and Men. I don't recognize the names you give but I'm
guessing they were Silvan Eves. Were they part of the later
legendarium, or an earlier tale that never came to fruition?
Stan Brown
<ojevin...@bredband.net>:
>
> "Steve Morrison" <rim...@toast.net> skrev i meddelandet
> news:Qq-dnQJS77-XzzfW...@posted.toastnet...
> > TT Arvind wrote:
> >>
> >>> Possibly, but that doesn't alter what Tolkien wrote. Arwen chose
> >>> mortality;
> >>> by one statement from Tolkien, so did Elladan and Elrohir. We are told
> >>> that
> >>> becoming mortal or throw in their lot with the Elves, and Arwen wasn't
> >>> the
> >>> first of them to choose mortality.
> >>
> >> On a slight tangent, was the choice offered to all Half-elven, or was
> >> it only to the descendants of Earendil and Elwing? Is there anything
> >> to suggest that - for example - Galador or Gilmith, as children of
> >> join?
> >>
> >> --
> >> Arvind
> >
> > Interestingly, a certain former participant in these groups recently
> > offered an opinion on that very topic:
> >
> > http://www.sf-fandom.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=32736
>
> I notice, that Martinez is a categorical as ever. It is evident from this
> statement of his: "Dior and his sons were given no such choice." Actually,
> we simply don't know whether they were.
And right before that he says "The choice of kindred was a blessing
extended to Elrond's children, not an aspect of being half-elven." I
don't know of any text that supports such an interpretation.
Steve Morrison
> We are all so used to the immense pains that he took over the
> published works, or the works that he intended to publish, that I
> think subconsciously I tend to give great weight to *everything* he
> wrote. but as I'm re-reading letters I'm finding again and again
> that he contradicts himself. For instance, in one letter he refers
> multiple times to "the Trilogy" but then in a later letter he rather
> testily says that the LotR is "of course" not a trilogy. And he has
> made some outright slips (though I can't think of an example at the
> moment).
>
> I think we have to accept that somethings he just dashed off without
> giving them a lot of thought. he should perhaps have written
> IDHTBIFOM on some of his letters!
In one letter he wrote:
The Balrog never speaks or makes any vocal sound at all.
In fact, after Gandalf breaks the bridge with his staff,
With a terrible cry the Balrog fell forward.
Steve Morrison
> Tue, 23 Mar 2010 06:47:30 -0700 (PDT) from TT Arvind
> <ttar...@hotmail.com>:
>> On 23 Mar, 10:50, Öjevind Lång <ojevind.l...@bredband.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Possibly, but that doesn't alter what Tolkien wrote. Arwen chose mortality;
>>> by one statement from Tolkien, so did Elladan and Elrohir. We are told that
>>> all Peredhil, from Eärendil and Elwing onwards, had a choice between
>>> becoming mortal or throw in their lot with the Elves, and Arwen wasn't the
>>> first of them to choose mortality.
>> On a slight tangent, was the choice offered to all Half-elven, or was
>> it only to the descendants of Earendil and Elwing?
>
> That *was* all the half-elven. :-)
>
>> Is there anything to suggest that - for example - Galador or
>> Gilmith, as children of Mithrellas and Imrazôr, had a choice as to
>> which side they wished to join?
>
> I had always understood that the Peredhil referred to descendants of
> Calaquendi and Men. I don't recognize the names you give but I'm
> guessing they were Silvan Eves. Were they part of the later
> legendarium, or an earlier tale that never came to fruition?
>
Mithrellas and Imrazôr were the ancestors of the Lords
of Dol Amroth, mentioned both in /UT/ and /PoME/. Mithrellas
was one of Nimrodel's maidens who became separated from her
in their flight to Belfalas, and Imrazôr the Númenórean
was a man of Belfalas who married her. Presumably this wasn't
counted as one of the three unions between the Eldar and the
Edain because she was a Silvan Elf.
Johnny1a
> "TT Arvind" <ttarv...@hotmail.com> skrev i meddelandetnews:4d074cd6-f966-48d6...@g4g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
Clearly so. For that matter, it's said in at least one version of the
story of Aldarion the Mariner that he made a law requiring that the
members of the royal line of Numenor must marry another descedent of
Elros, since he recognized that part of the problem in his troubled
marriage was the difference in lifespan between himself and Erendis,
his wife.
That could hardly have been the case in the first few generations of
Numenor, however, because it would require intermarriage of close kin,
a practice which the undecayed Dunedain did not indulge in.
Presumably there are various cadet branches of the royal family, and I
would assume some of them were among the Faithful as a matter of odds
(aside from the Lords of Andunie). Likewise, there would almost
surely be cadet branches of the two royal lines in Arnor and Gondor.
Johnny1a
> Öjevind Lång wrote:
> > We are told that Elladan and Elrohir chose to remain in Middle-earth, like
> > Arwen, though for other reasons. Is there any intimation anywhere of what
> > the reason was, or what became of them?
>
> The only mention I can recall is Letters 153
>
> "Elrond passes Over Sea. The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not
> told: they delay their choice, and remain for a while."
>
We can't say with any certainty whether they stayed or not, but if
they did...one can only speculate at the grief Celebrian must have
felt when none of her children came over the sea.
Öjevind Lång
news:461fbf4a-fa16-49a1...@z3g2000yqz.googlegroups.com...
> On Mar 25, 6:58 am, Öjevind Lång <ojevind.l...@bredband.net> wrote:
[snip]
>> Clearly, Tolkien changed his mind later, since the seed of Valinor most
>> emphatically also d scended among Men through Elrond's brother Elros. In
>> fact, most Dúnedain after the Fall must have beend escended from Luthien,
>> even though Tolkien had too much beer at the pub one day and declared
>> that
>> said descendants only married each other. This 100% apartheid would
>> simply
>> not have been possible, though naturally a racistic prediclection only to
>> marry other (known) descendants of Beren and Lúthien would have been.
>>
>> Öjevind
>
> Clearly so. For that matter, it's said in at least one version of the
> story of Aldarion the Mariner that he made a law requiring that the
> members of the royal line of Numenor must marry another descedent of
> Elros, since he recognized that part of the problem in his troubled
> marriage was the difference in lifespan between himself and Erendis,
> his wife.
>
> That could hardly have been the case in the first few generations of
> Numenor, however, because it would require intermarriage of close kin,
> a practice which the undecayed Dunedain did not indulge in.
Exactly.
> Presumably there are various cadet branches of the royal family, and I
> would assume some of them were among the Faithful as a matter of odds
> (aside from the Lords of Andunie). Likewise, there would almost
> surely be cadet branches of the two royal lines in Arnor and Gondor.
And of course, Tolkien must have known that in actuality, "noble blood"
always spreads into the lower classes, and that members of the lower classes
advance up the societal ladder. In fact there are indications in LotR that
he imagined all or many Dúnedain as having Elvish blood: the looks of
Mablung and Damrod conform to the same pattern as that of aristocratic
Dúnedain such as Faramir and the knights of Dol Amroth.
Öjevind
Öjevind Lång
news:8111i8...@mid.individual.net...
[snip]
> Dior, however, was married to Nimloth, a full-blooded Elf, so I would
> regard it as more likely that he went to Aman. It would be very unlike
> Tolkien to separate a married couple forever, unless one of them was a
> real scoundrel. And with Dior and Nimloth their two little sons would
> probably go.
Oops! One probably can't call a female (for example the female partner in a
marriage) a "scoundrel", can one? So I suppose I should have written "was
truly evil" or "was very villainous" or something like that.
Öjevind
Öjevind Lång
news:MPG.2615d69ee...@news.individual.net...
[snip]
> Thank you! You've articulated very clearly a nagging unease that
> I've had for a long time.
>
> We are all so used to the immense pains that he took over the
> published works, or the works that he intended to publish, that I
> think subconsciously I tend to give great weight to *everything* he
> wrote. but as I'm re-reading letters I'm finding again and again
> that he contradicts himself. For instance, in one letter he refers
> multiple times to "the Trilogy" but then in a later letter he rather
> testily says that the LotR is "of course" not a trilogy. And he has
> made some outright slips (though I can't think of an example at the
> moment).
Neither do I, but they are there.
> I think we have to accept that somethings he just dashed off without
> giving them a lot of thought. he should perhaps have written
> IDHTBIFOM on some of his letters!
LOL - yes! When Robert Foster first published "The Guide to Middle-earth",
he included materal from letters Tolkien had written; but when he revised
the book (and renamed it "The Complete Guide") after the publication of "The
Silmarillion", he no longer consulted Tolkien's letters because they so
often contradicted each other. The one exception he made was to use material
from Tolkien's letters to Dick Plotz because "so much of the information
contained in Professor Tolkien's letters to and conversations with my friend
Dick Plotz has been corrobroated by *The Silmarillion* that I feel confident
in using the remaining items."
Foster also used the names on Pauline Baynes' map of Middle-earth that
must have been given to her by Tolkien, and Clyde Kilby's *Tolkien and the
Silmarillion* because "it contains intriguing hints of the End", apparently
supplied by Tolkien.
Öjevind
Öjevind Lång
Heart-breaking thought, isn't it?
Öjevind
Jim Heckman
On 25-Mar-2010, Steve Morrison <rim...@toast.net>
wrote in message <JKidnbWwYufaoTHW...@posted.toastnet>:
> Stan Brown wrote:
>
> > Tue, 23 Mar 2010 06:47:30 -0700 (PDT) from TT Arvind
> > <ttar...@hotmail.com>:
[...]
> >> Is there anything to suggest that - for example - Galador or
> >> Gilmith, as children of Mithrellas and Imrazôr, had a choice as to
> >> which side they wished to join?
> >
> > I had always understood that the Peredhil referred to descendants of
> > Calaquendi and Men. I don't recognize the names you give but I'm
> > guessing they were Silvan Eves. Were they part of the later
> > legendarium, or an earlier tale that never came to fruition?
>
> Mithrellas and Imrazôr were the ancestors of the Lords
> of Dol Amroth, mentioned both in /UT/ and /PoME/. Mithrellas
> was one of Nimrodel's maidens who became separated from her
> in their flight to Belfalas, and Imrazôr the Númenórean
> was a man of Belfalas who married her. Presumably this wasn't
> counted as one of the three unions between the Eldar and the
> Edain because she was a Silvan Elf.
Well... Technically, the Silvan Elves of Lothlórien and Greenwood
the Great/Mirkwood probably *were* Eldar, as is discussed at some
length in Appendix A "The Silvan Elves and their Speech" of "The
History of Galadriel and Celeborn" in /UT/, among other places.
Specifically, they were probably of Nandorin origin, the group of
Teleri who balked at crossing the Hithaeglir/Misty Mountains on the
Great Journey from Cuiviénen to Aman.
I notice that Stan specified Calaquendi, not Eldar, in which case
he may well be right.
On the other hand, your phrase "the three unions between the Eldar
and the Edain" definitely rings a bell. Where is it from?
--
Jim Heckman
Michael Ikeda
news:-OidnU7kXJg_IzDW...@posted.localnet:
>
> On 25-Mar-2010, Steve Morrison <rim...@toast.net>
> wrote in message
> <JKidnbWwYufaoTHW...@posted.toastnet>:
>
>> Stan Brown wrote:
>>
>> > Tue, 23 Mar 2010 06:47:30 -0700 (PDT) from TT Arvind
>> > <ttar...@hotmail.com>:
>
> [...]
>
(snip)
>>
>> Mithrellas and Imrazôr were the ancestors of the Lords
>> of Dol Amroth, mentioned both in /UT/ and /PoME/. Mithrellas
>> was one of Nimrodel's maidens who became separated from her
>> in their flight to Belfalas, and Imrazôr the Númenórean
>> was a man of Belfalas who married her. Presumably this wasn't
>> counted as one of the three unions between the Eldar and the
>> Edain because she was a Silvan Elf.
>
(snip)
>
> On the other hand, your phrase "the three unions between the
> Eldar and the Edain" definitely rings a bell. Where is it from?
>
Appendix A, second paragraph of the "The Numenorean Kings" section.
"There were three unions of the Eldar and the Edain: Luthien and
Beren; Idril and Tuor; Arwen and Aragorn."
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
Steve Morrison
> Well... Technically, the Silvan Elves of Lothlórien and Greenwood
> the Great/Mirkwood probably *were* Eldar, as is discussed at some
> length in Appendix A "The Silvan Elves and their Speech" of "The
> History of Galadriel and Celeborn" in /UT/, among other places.
> Specifically, they were probably of Nandorin origin, the group of
> Teleri who balked at crossing the Hithaeglir/Misty Mountains on the
> Great Journey from Cuiviénen to Aman.
>
> I notice that Stan specified Calaquendi, not Eldar, in which case
> he may well be right.
<slaps forehead>
You're right, of course, and what's more, we've discussed this
problem more than once in the past! Here are the most recent
threads I can find where this little snag comes up:
http://preview.tinyurl.com/ykwjffl
http://preview.tinyurl.com/yhueaxj
http://preview.tinyurl.com/ygtk7sm
http://preview.tinyurl.com/yfo4wjs
So, anyone care to take another stab at resolving it? The only
solutions I can think of are 1) "Eldar" is really being misused
to mean "Calaquendi" or 2) the Silvan Elves had intermarried
with Avari and so were no longer wholly Eldar.
Öjevind Lång
3. (Story externally:) Tolkien was a bit forgetful when he made Imrahil part
Elvish and couldn't retract it since it was canonical.
Öjevind
Troels Forchhammer
Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> spoke these staves:
>
<snip>
> We are all so used to the immense pains that he took over the
> published works, or the works that he intended to publish, that I
> think subconsciously I tend to give great weight to *everything*
> he wrote.
I think we tend to exaggerate the pains he took over the published
works -- and also his success at it. Tolkien certainly did go to more
pains than do most authors, but that is not quite the same as saying
that his work is perfectly consistent or otherwise flawless.
> but as I'm re-reading letters I'm finding again and again that he
> contradicts himself.
Several times.
[...]
> And he has made some outright slips (though I can't think of an
> example at the moment).
There is the statement that Men could not use magic (though unsent
and accompanied with the notice that the Númenóreans used spells on
swords).
And of course there are a number of contrasting statements regarding
_why_ he wrote _The Lord of the Rings_ or about the relation of _The
Hobbit_ to his legendarium.
A careful reading can come up with several examples of this.
> I think we have to accept that somethings he just dashed off
> without giving them a lot of thought. he should perhaps have
> written IDHTBIFOM on some of his letters!
;-)
Certainly -- but that isn't the point, in my opinion.
There are two points that I would make in this context.
The first is that everything Tolkien wrote on the matter of Middle-
earth is _absolutely reliable_! There is no reason whatsoever to
doubt that Tolkien is perfectly honest with every statement -- it is
just that his thoughts didn't stay constant: he would change is mind
often enough and so the 'truth' that he wrote would change. But that
is no reason to dismiss any statement as untrue or as less valuable
-- they are all perfectly true and all are equally valuable
expressions of his views at the time he wrote them.
My second point pertains to the idea that I perceive as underlying
the concern expressed here. There is an idea of Middle-earth, of
Tolkien's entire legendarium, as one single consistent sub-created
'reality' -- that there can be one great expression of the TRUTH
about Middle-earth. This, my friends, is, in my considered opinion,
an illusion (not to say self-delusion) that detracts from the
appreciation of Tolkien's work.
Tolkien was, if anything, _more_ willing to change his published
works than most other authors, and this, I would venture, was in part
also because he realised that they were far from perfect. They are
some of the best stories that I have read (and LotR is, to me, the
best story I have ever read, though this would probably shock Tolkien
himself), but this is not the same as saying that they are perfect.
We all know about the dramatic change Tolkien made to the 'Riddles in
the Dark' chapter of _The Hobbit_, and there have been rumours of the
far more fundamental changes he was later undertaking (though he
abandoned this work he was in any case _not_ against the idea of
publishing such drastic changes to the book), and other changes were
made to LotR such as the lineage of Galadriel which was changed to
match the evolving ideas in the later work on the Silmarillion.
What I am trying to argue is that being concerned whether Tolkien
contradicts himself in the letters is to ignore the fact that he
contradicts himself in the books -- the books (and in particular the
books published during his life) are being idealized to a point that
blinds one towards the dynamics of the text and exxagerates perceived
or real differences between the published book and other texts.
_The Lord of the Rings_ was written over a period of some twelve
years (IIRC); a period during which Tolkien's ideas developed
considerably: he was playing with the idea of changing the earliest
cosmology of Arda (round world vs. flat world) and hints of _both_
cosmologies survive in LotR. It also took him quite a bit to get the
book on the right track -- the Hobbit ranger, Trotter, survived late
into the process, and hints of his story survive even into the
published books in things his eventual replacement, Aragorn, says or
does -- elements that have no place in Aragorn's story, but which
survive because they add something valuable to the story despite
being incongruous with it. So, even within LotR itself, there are
lots of hints and evidence showing that _everything_ about Arda is
really a dynamic concept: the 'Truth about Arda' that seems to be
such a common thing to believe in is really a moving target and not
even a constant within LotR itself (and even less constant if we
start looking within _The Hobbit_ and _The Silmarillion_). _The Lord
of the Rings_ is not a flash snapshot of Tolkien's legendarium --
instead it is a picture with a very long exposure with a flash at the
end. The lighted still at the end is clearer than anything else, but
the traces of the long exposure are clearly visible, and they tend to
blur the details of the picture.
It is practical in many situations to have some kind of 'standard
vision' of Tolkien's legendarium against which we may compare various
statements, but once we start considering this as _The Truth About
Arda_ then we're missing the point. It is the canon debate all over
again -- and I've already said more than enough about that particular
question :-)
So, to turn back to the topic of this thread, the eventual fate of
the Sons of Elrond, it is quite possible, no less likely than the
opposite, that the statement in the 1954 letter is actually a clearer
statement of Tolkien's ideas when he was writing the appendices (and
the prologue) than the text of the appendices themselves (which were
written under the double stresses of concerns for space and time).
Treating the statement as inherently of lesser value because it
occurs in a letter is wrong -- it should be treated for what it is:
an explicit statement in a letter from 1954. It certainly expresses
clearly Tolkien's view on the matter in September 1954, but it is
seemingly at odds with statements in the published text. We might
quibble about the status of this question in the 'standard vision'
that I speak about above, but this would, IMO, be putting too much
emphasis on this standard vision -- that would be lending to it some
of the qualities of the One Truth, which it can never be. We have to
realise that the idea of a standard vision is a limited thing and of
limited use, though it is more useful as simply a standard vision
than as the One Truth.
So, we should, in my opinion, treat all statements as equally valid
and equally true expressions of Tolkien's intention at the time of
writing them. We should be aware of the context of each statement and
then we need to consider the nature and the context of the question
we're asking ourselves -- how to deal with the absence or presence of
consistency between various statements depend wholly on what context
we're interested in -- _The Lord of the Rings_ is, for instance, not
very relevant when discussing the nature of the Foalókë or the
rehousing of dead Elves in Valinor.
--
Troels Forchhammer <troelsfo(a)googlewave.com>
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.
The major problem [encountered in time travel] is quite
simply one of grammar, and the main work to consult in this
matter is Dr Dan Streetmentioner's Time Traveller's
Handbook of 1001 Tense Formations.
- Douglas Adams, /The Restaurant at the End of the Universe/
Troels Forchhammer
>
<snip>
> You're right, of course, and what's more, we've discussed this
> problem more than once in the past!
Oh dear, yes ;-)
> So, anyone care to take another stab at resolving it?
One more stab at it? Why not ;-)
> The only solutions I can think of are
>
> 1) "Eldar" is really being misused to mean "Calaquendi"
Close, but not quite, IMO. (see below)
> 2) the Silvan Elves had intermarried with Avari and so were no
> longer wholly Eldar.
That would also go against all we know about the Avari from
elsewhere.
The problem, in my opinion, is simpler. Within the context of _The
Silmarillion_, Christopher Tolkien defines _Eldar_ to be all the
Quendi that started out on the Great March and their descendants:
Then befell the first sundering of the Elves. For the
kindred of Ingwė, and the most part of the kindreds of
Finwė and Elwė, were swayed by the words of their lords,
and were willing to depart and follow Oromė; and these were
known ever after as the Eldar, by the name that Oromė gave
to the Elves in the beginning, in their own tongue. But
many refused the summons, preferring the starlight and the
wide spaces of Middle-earth to the rumour of the Trees; and
these are the Avari, the Unwilling, and they were sundered
in that time from the Eldar, and met never again until many
ages were past.
(Silm, III ch. 3 'Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of
Melkor)
However, in LotR Tolkien defines it thus:
The Elves far back in the Elder Days became divided into
two main branches: the West-elves (the Eldar) and the East-
elves. Of the latter kind were most of the elven-folk of
Mirkwood and Lórien; but their languages do not appear in
this history, in which all the Elvish names and words are
of Eldarin form.
(LotR App. F,I 'The Languages and Peoples of the Third Age')
It is, of course, not entirely clear what is meant by 'West-elves',
but since it excludes (most of) the people of Lórien and Mirkwood, it
seems that the West-elves were only the Elves of Beleriand (any
Calaquendi who never came back to Beleriand aren't really relevant in
this since they are never mentioned in LotR). It is, in any case
clear from the internal evidence that the word 'Eldar' is used
differently within LotR than it is in the Silm. Had Tolkien become
aware of this problem, he would likely have changed something -- with
changes to LotR being equally likely as changes to the unpublished
Silm (obviously depending upon how strongly he felt about it, but
there is a history of changes being made to LotR in later editions to
accomodate the evolution of the Silm).
--
Troels Forchhammer <troelsfo(a)googlewave.com>
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.
Smile
a while
ere day
is done
and all
your gall
will soon
be gone.
- Piet Hein, /Advice at Nightfall/
Troels Forchhammer
<snip>
>> On a slight tangent, was the choice offered to all Half-elven, or
>> was it only to the descendants of Earendil and Elwing?
>
> That *was* all the half-elven. :-)
My impression is that this is true in more than one sense. My
impression is that the title of 'Peredhil' is linked to the Choice --
that only those who have this choice are Half-elven, and that the
choice was granted to Eärendil and Elwing -- and to their Half-elven
descendants -- in reward of their embassy to Valinor.
>> Is there anything to suggest that - for example - Galador or
>> Gilmith, as children of Mithrellas and Imrazôr, had a choice as
>> to which side they wished to join?
>
> I had always understood that the Peredhil referred to descendants
> of Calaquendi and Men.
Hmm -- wouldn't that have made the Kings of Númenor Half-elven? And
yet they are invariably spoken of as Men. The problem here is of
course that you are right that the descendants of Eärendil and Elwing
really are the only people descended from both Calaquendi and Men,
and so we cannot be entirely sure about cause and effect here: they
are the Half-elven (at least those who haven't chosen to become fully
Men), they are the descendants of Eärendil and Elwing, they are the
ones with the Choice of the Half-elven and they are the only
descendants of Calaquendi and Edain. But which are causes and which
are effects, and which are simply incidental correlations (story-
internally, that is -- story-externally I don't doubt that Tolkien
_meant_ for all these to match up).
> I don't recognize the names you give but I'm guessing they were
> Silvan Eves. Were they part of the later legendarium, or an
> earlier tale that never came to fruition?
Steve has already pointed out that they were the ancestors of the
line of Dol Amroth. That Prince Imrahil had some elvish blood is of
course firmly established in LotR, and it is also, IIRC, strongly
suggested that the elf in question came from Lórien. It is never
suggested that any of these were given the choice, nor do I recall
any description of them as 'half-elven'.
--
Troels Forchhammer <troelsfo(a)googlewave.com>
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.
The truth may be out there, but lies are inside your head.
- /Hogfather/ (Terry Pratchett)
Öjevind Lång
[snip]
> I think we tend to exaggerate the pains he took over the published
> works -- and also his success at it. Tolkien certainly did go to more
> pains than do most authors, but that is not quite the same as saying
> that his work is perfectly consistent or otherwise flawless.
>
>> but as I'm re-reading letters I'm finding again and again that he
>> contradicts himself.
>
> Several times.
>
> [...]
>> And he has made some outright slips (though I can't think of an
>> example at the moment).
>
> There is the statement that Men could not use magic (though unsent
> and accompanied with the notice that the Númenóreans used spells on
> swords).
>
> And of course there are a number of contrasting statements regarding
> _why_ he wrote _The Lord of the Rings_ or about the relation of _The
> Hobbit_ to his legendarium.
>
> A careful reading can come up with several examples of this.
Another, classical example is when he describes how the western entrance to
Khazad-dûm was inscribed "MORIA", though that, according to the Appendices,
was a name given without love, which emans that the Dwarves would not have
accepted having it there.
Öjevind
Jette Goldie
In the "three marriages" the woman is Elf and the man is Man - the Elf
woman "marries down".
We don't hear of any Elf males taking wives from Mankind, do we?
--
Jette Goldie
jette....@gmail.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/wolfette/
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
http://wolfette.livejournal.com/
("reply to" is spamblocked - use the email addy in sig)
Troels Forchhammer
<snip>
> Dior, however, was married to Nimloth, a full-blooded Elf, so I
> would regard it as more likely that he went to Aman. It would be
> very unlike Tolkien to separate a married couple forever, unless
> one of them was a real scoundrel. And with Dior and Nimloth their
> two little sons would probably go.
Hmmm ... unless we can find a good reason to deny Nimloth the label of
'Elda' (Eldiė?) or a mortal Dior the label of Adan, then it would also
seem to contradict the statement in LotR that there were only three
unions of the Eldar (as that word is used in that book) and the Edain.
Much as I detest that fare, I seem to have to take a helping of my own
words here ;-)
--
Troels Forchhammer <troelsfo(a)googlewave.com>
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.
People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom
of thought which they avoid.
- Soren Kierkegaard
Jim Heckman
On 29-Mar-2010, Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid>
wrote in message <Xns9D4ADA8C...@130.133.4.11>:
> In message <news:8111i8...@mid.individual.net>
> Öjevind Lång <ojevin...@bredband.net> spoke these staves:
>
> <snip>
>
> > Dior, however, was married to Nimloth, a full-blooded Elf, so I
> > would regard it as more likely that he went to Aman. It would be
> > very unlike Tolkien to separate a married couple forever, unless
> > one of them was a real scoundrel. And with Dior and Nimloth their
> > two little sons would probably go.
>
> Hmmm ... unless we can find a good reason to deny Nimloth the label of
> 'Elda' (Eldië?) or a mortal Dior the label of Adan, then it would also
> seem to contradict the statement in LotR that there were only three
> unions of the Eldar (as that word is used in that book) and the Edain.
>
> Much as I detest that fare, I seem to have to take a helping of my own
> words here ;-)
Well, there's the first paragraph of Silm XX "Of the Fifth Battle:
Nirnaeth Arnoediad", which ends with:
[...] Then Beren and Lúthien went forth alone, fearing
neither thirst nor hunger; and they passed beyond the river
Gelion into Ossiriand, and dwelt there in Tol Galen the green
isle, in the midst of Adurant, until all tidings of them
ceased. The Eldar afterwards called that country Dor
Firn-i-Guinar, the Land of the Dead that Live; and there was
born Dior Aranel the beautiful, who was after known as Dior
Eluchíl, which is Thingol's Heir. No mortal man spoke ever
again with Beren son of Barahir; and none saw Beren or
Lúthien leave the world, or marked where at last their bodies
lay.
Since Dior grew up to wed Nimloth and have three children in Tol
Galen while Beren was still alive, it seems safe to assume that
father and son spoke with each other. So "No mortal man spoke ever
again with Beren son of Barahir;" could be taken as an admittedly
rather tenuous indication that Dior was not mortal.
--
Jim Heckman
Troels Forchhammer
<4d074cd6-f966-48d6...@g4g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>
TT Arvind <ttar...@hotmail.com> spoke these staves:
> The textual history of the choice is actually fairly interesting.
> With apologies for its length, I'm posting an excerpt from a piece
> about the nature of the peredhil which I wrote some years ago for
> my university's Tolkien Society:
Thank you. I agree -- this history is indeed very interesting.
> The Choice in the early texts
<snip>
> The "more developed" conception of the Choice, which is familiar
> to us from the LoTR and the published Sil., first appears in the
> draft of the conclusion of the Silmarillion in HoME V.
>
> As in the
> published Sil., it appears in connection with Earendil's voyage to
> Valinor, and the Valar's debate on how to deal with Earendil and
> Elwing. As in the published Sil., Manwe offers them a choice of
> which kindred to join. However, this text makes an explicit
> linkage between the presence of mortal blood and the fate of a
> peredhel:
>
> [Manwe said:] "Now all those who have the blood of mortal men, in
> whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be
> granted to them; but in this matter the power of doom is given to
> me." (HoME V, /The conclusion of the Quenta Silmarillion/, S. 9).
And in this version, the choice of the two brethren are given in §28,
which deals with the choices of the peoples of Beleriand in the
aftermath of the War of Wrath:
§28 Yet not all the Eldalië were willing to forsake the
Hither Lands where they had long suffered and long dwelt;
and some lingered many an age in the West and North, and
especially in the western isles and in the Land of
Leithien. And among these were Maglor, as hath been told;
and with him for a while was Elrond Halfelven, who chose,
as was granted to him, to be among the Elf-kindred ; but
Elros his brother chose to abide with Men.
(HoMe V, II,6 QS _Conclusion_ §28, p. 332)
> HoME V indicates that, unless offerred the Choice, all the
> peredhil would be treated as being Atani. It is interesting to
> note that this link does not occur in the published Silmarillion.
This is also explicitly addressed in one of the earliest versions of
'The Fall of Númenor':
But the high place of its king was at Númenos in the heart
of the land. It was built first by Elrond son of Earendel,
whom the Gods and Elves chose to be the lord of that land;
for in him the blood of the houses of Hador and Bëor was
mingled, and with it some part of that of the Eldar and
Valar, which he drew from Idril and from Lúthien. But
Elrond and all his folk were mortal; for the Valar may not
withdraw the gift of death, which cometh to Men from
Ilúvatar.
(HoMe V, I,2 (iii) 'The Fall of Númenor' - second version, p. 25)
It is also interesting here that it is _Elrond_ who, in this version,
was the first king of Númenor. CJRT dates these writings to 1936-7
and presumably this is from the first part of this period. As far as
I can see, the idea of the Choice arises as an explicit _exception_
to this rule, and the rule itself is certainly not revoked for the
Princes of Dol Amroth, who also, visibly, has some elven blood. The
later idea is also explicitly stated in the Notion Club section of
HoMe IX:
[...] Elros son of Éarendel [>Éarendil], whom the gods and
elves and men chose to be the lord [> who (was) appointed
to be the first lord] of the Númenoreans. He was descended
from the line of both Hador and Béor, fathers of Men, and
in part also from both the Eldar and the Valar, for Idril
and Lúthien were his foremothers. But Elros and all his
folk were mortal; for the Valar may not withdraw the gift
of death, which cometh to men from Ilúvatar. _[This passage,
from ‘He was descended ...’, was struck out and replaced by
the following rider:_ ‘Now Elrond, and Elros his brother,
were descended from the line of both Hador and of Béor,
fathers of Men, and in part also both from the Eldar and
the Valar, for Idril and Lúthien daughter of Melian were
their foremothers. None others among Men of the Elder Days
had kinship with the Elves, and therefore they were called
Halfelven. The Valar indeed may not withdraw the gift of
death, which cometh to Men from Ilúvatar, but in the matter
of the Halfelven Ilúvatar gave them judgement. And this
they judged: choice should be given to the brethren. And
Elrond chose to remain with the Firstborn, and to him the
life of the Firstborn was given, and yet a grace was added,
that choice was never annulled, and while the world lasted
he might return, if he would, to mortal men, and die. But
to Elros, who chose to be a king of men, still a great span
of years was granted, seven times that of mortal men; and
all his line, the kings and lords of the royal house of
Númenor, [added: being descended from Húrin,] had long life
even according to the span of the Númenóreans, for some of
the kings that sat at Númenos lived four hundred years. But
Elros lived five hundred years, and ruled the Númenóreans
four hundred years and ten. Thus, though long in life and
assailed by no sickness, the men of Númenor were mortal
still.]
(HoMe IX, FNIII 'The Drowning of Anadune' p.333)[#]
This expresses the same idea the QS text, and I think it also
suggests that the term 'Halfelven' is reserved _only_ for the
descendants of Elwing and Eärendil -- this would, if I am correct,
mean that the Princes of Dol Amroth, whatever their Elvish blood,
were _not_ 'Halfelven' in the way Tolkien came to use the word.
> This portion of the manuscript does not, however, appear to have
> been rewritten by JRRT to differ significantly from the form
> published in HoME V (See CT's editorial comments in HoME XI, /The
> Later Quenta Silmarillion/ on the conclusion of the Sil.)
The only change CJRT notes to §9 (the actual doom that you quote) is
"‘Manwë’ > ‘Manwë the Elder King’" -- which of course doesn't change
any word of Manwë's doom.
> CT doubtless had good reasons for departing from this wording in
> the published Silmarillion, but I'm not sure what they are. It
> may be that I'm misreading his editorial comments in HoME XI.
Whatever the reasons, it does not appear that it was because his
father had abandoned this idea, which of course also underlies the
untroubled presentation in LotR of the Princes of Dol Amroth as
having Elvish blood. As I can see it, it is more likely that the
reasoning is based on e.g. Christopher Tolkien's concerns to achieve
a text that is reasonably consistent in tone and level of detail.
I am not, however, worried about the apparently incredible later
history of Elros' bloodline. Tolkien evidently wanted to keep down
any cadet branches of that line, and my impression is that it is put
beyond the purely genetic question: there is a question of a
'right' -- or perhaps rather an honour -- that could be forfeited in
various ways. Finally, if Tolkien actually wanted to kill off any
stray side-branches of the royal line of Númenor, such that Aragorn
truly was the only descendant of Elros in all the world at the time
of the War of the Ring, then that is his prerogative -- whatever the
unlikeliness of such a thing in the real world, it is certainly not
outside the realm of the possible, and several quite credible
explanations could have been invented, if Tolkien had wanted to do
so.
[#] As I cannot represent the breve, I have used the acute accent in
all cases where the original has the former, since the original never
uses this symbol and this in almost all cases achieves the familiar
spellings (the exception being Béor, whose name in the published
_Silmarillion_ is written as Bëor).
--
Troels Forchhammer <troelsfo(a)googlewave.com>
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.
"It would seem that you have no useful skill or talent
whatsoever," he said. "Have you thought of going into
teaching?"
- /Mort/ (Terry Pratchett)
Troels Forchhammer
Jette Goldie <jgold...@btinternet.com> spoke these staves:
>
<snip>
> In the "three marriages" the woman is Elf and the man is Man - the
> Elf woman "marries down".
As also in the line of Dol Amroth where the Elvish strain is introduced
through an Elvish wife.
> We don't hear of any Elf males taking wives from Mankind, do we?
The closest instance that I know of is the mutual attraction between
Andreth and Aegnor (a son of Finarfin, brother of Finrod, Orodreth and
Angrod) as described in the 'Athrabeth Findrod eh Andreth' (HoMe X,
part 4). In this case Aegnor didn't want to marry Andreth because he
was at war (IIRC).
--
Troels Forchhammer <troelsfo(a)googlewave.com>
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not
imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They
laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed
at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the
Clown.
- Carl Sagan