Elladan and Elrohir
Bill Stefanelli
Here's one that confuses me. In RoTK we have Elrond's boys accompanying
Aragorn, and of course Legolas is there. At one point Legolas states that
they look like Elven Princes (shouldn't they?). On the Paths of the Dead
only Legolas the Elf is uneffected by the spirits of men. And on at least
one occasion I believe it is stated that Legolas is representing the Elves
in the company (when Elladan and Elrohir are also there). Now, I know that
Elrond is technically "halfelven" but his choice was to be numbered amongst
the Elves. And judging from the ages of his kids (Arwen too) they are pretty
darned old for non-Elves. What am I missing?
Bill
David Salo
In article <69sgge$h...@dfw-ixnews12.ix.netcom.com>, "Bill Stefanelli"
<ws...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
Elladan and Elrohir (and Arwen, until her marriage to Aragorn) belong in
the limbo of the great Undecided; they have not yet made up their minds
whether to be Elves or Men.
With respect to Elrond and Elros, Tolkien wrote that they did not have a
different _physical_ capacity for life; i.e., Elros could have gone on
living forever as far as his body was concerned. But Elros was
_metaphysically_ different from Elrond in that he preserved a desire to 'go
beyond the circles of the world'; whereas in Elrond that desire was
Providentially eliminated. So Elros dies - of free will - and Elrond
remains.
The choices of Elrond's children (not Elros'), for whatever, reason, are
considered to be metaphysically equivalent to those of Elrond and Elros.
Until they make the choice, however, they retain the _physical_ capacity to
live indefinitely; if at any point one of them were to renounce elvishness,
he or she would eventually grow 'weary of the world' and die, not because
of physical necessity, but because his or her soul was no longer content in
the body.
The following (not in brackets) count as the "Half-elven" (Peredhil) to
whom the doom of choice was given:
[Earendil = Elwing]
__________________|__________________
| |
Elros Elrond
| _________________|____
[Mortal Descendants] | | |
Elladan Elrohir Arwen
Elros and Arwen became human; Elrond became elvish; the choices of
Elladan and Elrohir are never revealed, and may not have been identical.
It would be 'literarily appropriate' for, say, Elladan to have chosen
humanity while Elrohir decided to remain elven and take ship for Eressea.
David Salo
Andy
Bill Stefanelli wrote:
>
> Here's one that confuses me. In RoTK we have Elrond's boys accompanying
> Aragorn, and of course Legolas is there. At one point Legolas states that
> they look like Elven Princes (shouldn't they?). On the Paths of the Dead
> only Legolas the Elf is uneffected by the spirits of men. And on at least
> one occasion I believe it is stated that Legolas is representing the Elves
> in the company (when Elladan and Elrohir are also there). Now, I know that
> Elrond is technically "halfelven" but his choice was to be numbered amongst
> the Elves. And judging from the ages of his kids (Arwen too) they are pretty
> darned old for non-Elves. What am I missing?
ok, here's my interpretation about how being half-elven works. And mind
me, it is only my interpretation, and I am sure there are others.
Ok. Elrond decided to be numbered among the Elves, so in that he became
immortal, and bound to the Ea as only elves are. However, he is
immortal, right? but where did his human blood go? it is still there,
right? Then he is not truly elven, it's just that his elven heritage
entitles him to be immortal, by choice. So it is the same with his
sons, except I don't think that they get the choice, since their father
chose to be half-elven, so are they, yet they don't have a choice
whether they are to be immortal, as the elves are, or to be mortal.
I hope this clears some if it up :-)
Andy
He drew a deep breath. 'Well, I'm back,' he said.
-Sam Gamgee
Margaret R. Dean
In article <dsalo-ya02408000...@news.doit.wisc.edu>,
David Salo <ds...@usa.net> wrote:
> Elros and Arwen became human; Elrond became elvish; the choices of
>Elladan and Elrohir are never revealed, and may not have been identical.
>It would be 'literarily appropriate' for, say, Elladan to have chosen
>humanity while Elrohir decided to remain elven and take ship for Eressea.
Literarily appropriate, maybe . . . but I can't quite imagine them
separating like that! Granted that Elros and Elrond were also twins (I
think!) but a) we don't know if they were identical twins, as Elladan and
Elrohir seem to be, and b) we don't "see" them in action together in the
text the way we do Elrond's sons -- and we =never= see Elladan and Elrohir
apart. (I believe the currently popular metaphor is "joined at the hip.")
And given that the Castor & Pollux compromise is metaphysically impossible
for them . . .
--Margaret Dean
<marg...@access.digex.net>
Michael Martinez
In article <dsalo-ya02408000...@news.doit.wisc.edu>, ds...@usa.net
says...
> With respect to Elrond and Elros, Tolkien wrote that they did not have a
>different _physical_ capacity for life; i.e., Elros could have gone on
>living forever as far as his body was concerned.
Tolkien said no such thing. The fact that Galador and Gilmith died shows
the Half-elven did not have a propensity for immortality. Also the fact that
the Valar were permitted to EXTEND Elros' life shows he was not naturally
immortal (let alone Tolkien's statement that the Half-elves were born
mortal).
>But Elros was _metaphysically_ different from Elrond in that he preserved
>a desire to 'go beyond the circles of the world'; whereas in Elrond that
>desire was Providentially eliminated. So Elros dies - of free will -
>and Elrond remains.
After choosing to be of mortal kind, Elros would have died anyway regardless
of whether he went willingly. But until he was given the choice he had no
choice. It is not a state of Half-elvenhood in Tolkien that one is immortal
or free to choose kindreds.
Elrond, too, had he not been given the choice, would have remained mortal
and died eventually.
--
++ ++ "Well Samwise: What do you think of the elves now?"
||\ /|| --fbag...@mid.earth.com
|| v ||ichael Martinez (Mic...@xenite.org)
++ ++------------------------------------------------------
Olórin
Bill Stefanelli wrote:
> Here's one that confuses me. In RoTK we have Elrond's boys
> accompanying
> Aragorn, and of course Legolas is there. At one point Legolas states
> that
> they look like Elven Princes (shouldn't they?). On the Paths of the
> Dead
> only Legolas the Elf is uneffected by the spirits of men. And on at
> least
> one occasion I believe it is stated that Legolas is representing the
> Elves
> in the company (when Elladan and Elrohir are also there). Now, I know
> that
> Elrond is technically "halfelven" but his choice was to be numbered
> amongst
> the Elves. And judging from the ages of his kids (Arwen too) they are
> pretty
> darned old for non-Elves. What am I missing?
>
> Bill
Well... This may be a long shot, but as I remember, the choice of
kindred for the children of Elrond did not have to be made until Elrond
left for Valinor. So technically speaking, Arwen, Elrohir and Elladan
were neither Man nor Elf. As Elrond leaves on his own, all his children
chose to be Man and that does concur with Legolas being the only true
Elf present (talking backwards).It is a long shot, anyway.
Hope it helps,
Greetings,
Olórin
--
-------------------------------------------------
Olórin
Wielder of Narya
Guardian of the Ruling Staff of Creation
Eradicator of Evil
Observer of Human Folly
A.k.a. Stef Helsen
E-mail: St...@lx.student.wau.nl
Homepage: http://www.student.wau.nl/~stef
-------------------------------------------------
Bill Stefanelli
David Salo wrote in message ...
>
> Elladan and Elrohir (and Arwen, until her marriage to Aragorn) belong in
>the limbo of the great Undecided; they have not yet made up their minds
>whether to be Elves or Men.
> With respect to Elrond and Elros, Tolkien wrote that they did not have a
>different _physical_ capacity for life; i.e., Elros could have gone on
>living forever as far as his body was concerned. But Elros was
>_metaphysically_ different from Elrond in that he preserved a desire to 'go
>beyond the circles of the world'; whereas in Elrond that desire was
>Providentially eliminated. So Elros dies - of free will - and Elrond
>remains.
> The choices of Elrond's children (not Elros'), for whatever, reason, are
>considered to be metaphysically equivalent to those of Elrond and Elros.
>Until they make the choice, however, they retain the _physical_ capacity to
>live indefinitely; if at any point one of them were to renounce elvishness,
>he or she would eventually grow 'weary of the world' and die, not because
>of physical necessity, but because his or her soul was no longer content in
>the body.
>
I assume I can find more info in the Sil, but I simply don't remember any of
this.
Can you direct me where? One of the HoME books maybe?
Aragorn942
It didn't say only Legolas was uneffected by the spirits of the dead. It says
Gimli was effected. Also Legolas was representing the elves in the Fellowship
of the Ring. Elladan and Elrohir are not part of the Fellowship. I think that
they would by elves with no choice. Elrond chose to be an elf and Celebrian(sp)
his wife was also elven. So they would have to be elves.
Arag
orn942
David Salo
In article <69ui72$1...@sjx-ixn11.ix.netcom.com>, "Bill Stefanelli"
<ws...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> I assume I can find more info in the Sil, but I simply don't remember any of
> this.
> Can you direct me where? One of the HoME books maybe?
Look at Unfinished Tales p. 225, The Return of the King pp. 315, 340,
343-344, Letters #153 p. 193.
DS
Lisa Hilton
Bill Stefanelli wrote:
>
> Here's one that confuses me. In RoTK we have Elrond's boys accompanying
> Aragorn, and of course Legolas is there. At one point Legolas states that
> they look like Elven Princes (shouldn't they?). On the Paths of the Dead
> only Legolas the Elf is uneffected by the spirits of men. And on at least
> one occasion I believe it is stated that Legolas is representing the Elves
> in the company (when Elladan and Elrohir are also there). Now, I know that
> Elrond is technically "halfelven" but his choice was to be numbered amongst
> the Elves. And judging from the ages of his kids (Arwen too) they are pretty
> darned old for non-Elves. What am I missing?
>
> Bill
<puts two cents in the collection box>
Well, Legolas was full-elven, Elrond's sons were not.
This may have been part of that. Also, the two weren't
part of the original fellowship--the Nine Walkers. They
were part of the many, many who aided their cause,
but they were not part of the fellowship in its original
form.
ReElven Princes: I think this may refer to the fact that
they are more like Glorfindel and other of the Firstborn,
than other elves of later birth.
Lisa
Master V
Olórin wrote:
>
> Well... This may be a long shot, but as I remember, the choice of
> kindred for the children of Elrond did not have to be made until Elrond
> left for Valinor. So technically speaking, Arwen, Elrohir and Elladan
> were neither Man nor Elf. As Elrond leaves on his own, all his children
> chose to be Man and that does concur with Legolas being the only true
> Elf present (talking backwards).It is a long shot, anyway.
>
> Hope it helps,
>
> Greetings,
>
> Olórin
Err, I don't believe that to be true. The sons of Elrond, as well as
Arwen, had to be elven. They weren't half-elven, like Earendil, or his
sons Elrond and Elros. Elrond chose to be Elven, soo from the moment he
chose to be elven, boom, he was elven. Celebrian was all elven to begin
with. They were both elven.
I said elven 7 times in 5 sentences. Expect improvements.
Bill Stefanelli
Lisa Hilton wrote in message <34C411...@email.byu.edu>...
>Bill Stefanelli wrote:
>>
>> Here's one that confuses me. In RoTK we have Elrond's boys accompanying
>> Aragorn, and of course Legolas is there. At one point Legolas states that
>> they look like Elven Princes (shouldn't they?). On the Paths of the Dead
>> only Legolas the Elf is uneffected by the spirits of men. And on at least
>> one occasion I believe it is stated that Legolas is representing the
Elves
>> in the company (when Elladan and Elrohir are also there). Now, I know
that
>> Elrond is technically "halfelven" but his choice was to be numbered
amongst
>> the Elves. And judging from the ages of his kids (Arwen too) they are
pretty
>> darned old for non-Elves. What am I missing?
>>
>> Bill
>
><puts two cents in the collection box>
>
>Well, Legolas was full-elven, Elrond's sons were not.
>This may have been part of that. Also, the two weren't
>part of the original fellowship--the Nine Walkers. They
>were part of the many, many who aided their cause,
>but they were not part of the fellowship in its original
>form.
I reread RoTK and I think I understand now. It states that Arwen was given
the same choice as "Tinuviel" to remain or to go West. If she remained...
well we know the rest. Why Elrond's children were given this choice I do not
know. But Arwen anyway gave her seat on the grey ship to Frodo. I must
assume that Elrond's boys would get similar choices? But we never find
out....
>ReElven Princes: I think this may refer to the fact that
>they are more like Glorfindel and other of the Firstborn,
>than other elves of later birth.
>
Yes, this seems likely!
Bill
Andy
>
> I reread RoTK and I think I understand now. It states that Arwen was given
> the same choice as "Tinuviel" to remain or to go West. If she remained...
> well we know the rest. Why Elrond's children were given this choice I do not
> know. But Arwen anyway gave her seat on the grey ship to Frodo. I must
> assume that Elrond's boys would get similar choices? But we never find
> out....
one thing I have to say about Arwen 'giving' away her seat to frodo.
Actually two things..
1. if she gave away her seat to frodo, then who gave away their seat so
bilbo could go?
I don't really think that anybody gave away any seat. but the two
hobbits and, later gimli, if I remember correctly, were asked to go
because of their contributions...being the ringbearers, adn such...
2. Arwen didn't give away her seat. she chose to stay in middle earth,
and to die because she was in love with Aragorn. correct me if i'm
wrong. it was her choice. you sorta make it seem like she, elladan,
and elrohir are the only ones(excluding luthien) that had the
choice./..well, if for some design by the gods, some other elf fell in
love with a human, and they were married, when the human died, the elf
would not stay long in middle earth, they would soon depart...or die
because of grief. that is the same thing that happened to arwen. after
aragorn died, she departed, and went to lothlorien, and there laid down
in a bed of flowers. That is what happened.
--
Celia Malm
Shimpei Yamashita
<shimpei+nospam+n...@socrates.caltech.edu> penned the
following:
>Andy <g-d...@geocities.com> writes:
>>
>>one thing I have to say about Arwen 'giving' away her seat to frodo.
>>Actually two things..
>>
>>1. if she gave away her seat to frodo, then who gave away their seat so
>>bilbo could go?
>They were both counted under Arwen. This is believed to be the first
>historically known case of a "half price for kids" deal.
AAAAAACCCKKK!
No, no, no!
Actually, in dicussing this with someone privately, I came to the
conclusion that it's very possible that the whole "giving him her
seat" thing was just a gracious way of presenting the idea to him.
After all, I don't think Elven ships require seat assignments and
boarding passes. ;-)
Cee
------------------------------------------------
"If I must be this...this thing they have made of me,
I shall at least give it my voice and my heart."
Walker Boh
Lwc inc
Bill Stefanelli wrote:
>Lisa Hilton wrote
>>Bill Stefanelli wrote:
>>> Here's one that confuses me. In RoTK we have Elrond's boys accompanying
>>> Aragorn, and of course Legolas is there. At one point Legolas states that
>>> they look like Elven Princes (shouldn't they?). On the Paths of the Dead
>>> only Legolas the Elf is uneffected by the spirits of men. And on at least
>>> one occasion I believe it is stated that Legolas is representing the
>Elves
>>> in the company (when Elladan and Elrohir are also there). Now, I know
>that
>>> Elrond is technically "halfelven" but his choice was to be numbered
>amongst
>>> the Elves. And judging from the ages of his kids (Arwen too) they are
>pretty
>>> darned old for non-Elves. What am I missing?
>><puts two cents in the collection box>
>>
>>Well, Legolas was full-elven, Elrond's sons were not.
>>This may have been part of that. Also, the two weren't
>>part of the original fellowship--the Nine Walkers. They
>>were part of the many, many who aided their cause,
>>but they were not part of the fellowship in its original
>>form.
>I reread RoTK and I think I understand now. It states that Arwen was given
>the same choice as "Tinuviel" to remain or to go West. If she remained...
>well we know the rest. Why Elrond's children were given this choice I do not
>know. But Arwen anyway gave her seat on the grey ship to Frodo. I must
>assume that Elrond's boys would get similar choices? But we never find
>out....
Elrond was half-elven, and was married to an elven woman. Since his sons (and
daughter) had some human blood, they are entitled to the choice. IIRC, Elladan
and Elrohir sailed with Bilbo and Frodo. Also, IIRC, Arwen did not give up her
seat so that Frodo could go. She voluntarily chose to stay behind with Aragorn
and become mortal, so she could be in the Undying Lands with him after he died.
If someone can refute this with a quote or two, please do so. That way I can
partially repair my faulty memory:).
--Luke Cooper
Long live the almighty PAPER CLIP!
Prembone
Luke the Paper Clip Afficionado wrote: IIRC, Elladan and Elrohir sailed
with Bilbo and Frodo.
Prem: Actually, no, they didn't. Sorry I don't have the quote handy (the
PC is in a different room, and I rarely bring LOTR in here when I'm checking my
e-mail) but I do remember a reference (probably in the appendices) to Elladan
and Elrohir staying behind at Rivendell, later joined by Celeborn, when Elrond
sailed. I would infer that they then became the Masters of Rivendell. As far
as I know, Tolkien never says whether E and E eventually sailed or if they,
like their sister, chose mortality.
Chalfen5
>I reread RoTK and I think I understand now. It states that Arwen was given
>the same choice as "Tinuviel" to remain or to go West. If she remained...
>well we know the rest. Why Elrond's children were given this choice I do not
>know. But Arwen anyway gave her seat on the grey ship to Frodo. I must
>assume that Elrond's boys would get similar choices?
yes we do. they were given the choice and remained.
Shimpei Yamashita
Andy <g-d...@geocities.com> writes:
>
>one thing I have to say about Arwen 'giving' away her seat to frodo.
>Actually two things..
>
>1. if she gave away her seat to frodo, then who gave away their seat so
>bilbo could go?
They were both counted under Arwen. This is believed to be the first
historically known case of a "half price for kids" deal.
--
Shimpei Yamashita <http://www.patnet.caltech.edu/%7Eshimpei/>
The address I have listed in the headers is a working address. It just
looks like it's an invalid address in order to fool spammers collecting
addresses from newsgroups.
Martin T. Kutschker
Celia Malm wrote:
>
> Shimpei Yamashita
> <shimpei+nospam+n...@socrates.caltech.edu> penned the
> following:
>
> >>
> >>one thing I have to say about Arwen 'giving' away her seat to frodo.
> >>Actually two things..
> >>
> >>1. if she gave away her seat to frodo, then who gave away their seat so
> >>bilbo could go?
>
> >They were both counted under Arwen. This is believed to be the first
> >historically known case of a "half price for kids" deal.
:))
> Actually, in dicussing this with someone privately, I came to the
> conclusion that it's very possible that the whole "giving him her
> seat" thing was just a gracious way of presenting the idea to him.
I would think so. Try reading Letters #246 if you're interested in this
subject.
Masi
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Martin Thomas Kutschker /\ "Nonetheless I shall grant thy prayer, |
| _____||_ and thou shall go to Eilinel, |
| _________/ | and be set free from my service." |
------------ \________________________________________+
Michael Martinez
In article <6a6nuo$c...@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>, per...@ix.REMOVESPAMnetcom.com
says...
>Actually, in dicussing this with someone privately, I came to the
>conclusion that it's very possible that the whole "giving him her
>seat" thing was just a gracious way of presenting the idea to him.
>boarding passes. ;-)
How Frodo got to go to Valinor is discussed in THE LETTERS OF J.R.R.
TOLKIEN in an extensive footnote to letter 246:
"It is not made explicit how she could arrange this. She could not
of course just transfer her ticket on the boat like that! For any
except those of Elvish race 'sailing West' was not permitted, and
any exception required 'authority', and she was not in direct
communication with the Valar, especially not since her choice to
become 'mortal'. What is meant is that it was Arwen who first thought
of sending Frodo into the West, and put in a plea for him to Gandalf
(direct or through Galadriel, or both), and she used her own
renunciation of the right to go West as an argument. Her renunciation
and suffering were related to and enmehsed with Frodo's: both were
parts of a plan for the regeneration of the state of Men. Her prayer
might therefore be especially effective, and her plan have a certain
equity of exchange. No doubt it was Gandalf who was the authority
that accepted her plea. The Appendices show clearly that he was an
emissary of the Valar, and virtually their plenipotentiary in
accomplishing the plan against Sauron. He was also in special accord
with Cirdan the Ship-master, who had surrendered to him his ring and
so placed himself under Gandalf's command. Since Gandalf himself
went on the ship there would be so to speak no trouble either at
embarking or at the landing."
The connection with Bilbo and Sam comes in letter 154:
"But in this story it is supposed that there may be certain rare
exceptions or accommodations (legitimately supposed? there always
seem to be exceptions); and so certain 'mortals', who have played
some great part in Elvish affairs, may pass with the Elves to
Elvenhome. Thus Frodo (by the express gift of Arwen) and Bilbo,
and eventually Sam (as adumbrated by Frodo); and as a unique
exception Gimli the Dwarf, as friend of Legolas and 'servant'
of Galadriel."
Concerning Elladan and Elrohir, in letter 153 Tolkien writes:
"In the primary story of *Luthien* and *Beren*, Luthien is allowed as
an absolute exception to divest herself of 'immortality' and become
'mortal'....Arwen is not a reincarnation of Luthien (that in the view
of this mythical history would be impossible, since Luthien has died
like a mortal and left the world of time) but a descendant very like
her in looks, character, and fate. When she weds Aragorn (whose
love-story elsewhere recounted is not here central and onlt occasionally
referred to) she 'makes the choice of Luthien', so the grief at her
parting from Elrond is especially poignant. Elrond passes Over Sea.
The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told: they delay their
choice, and remain for a while."
In "The Passing of the Grey Company" (THE RETURN OF THE KING) Legolas says
of them:
"'But even as Aragorn they are courteous, if [the Dunedain] break their
silence,' said Legolas. 'And have you marked the brethren Elladan and
Elrohir? Less sombre is their gear than the others', and they are fair
and gallant as Elven-lords; and that is not to be wondered at in the sons
of Elrond of Rivendell.'"
A little later when Aragorn prepares to leave Helm's Deep, Tolkien writes:
"A lttle apart the Rangers sat, silent, in an ordered company, armed
with spear and bow and sword. They were clad in cloaks of dark grey,
and their hoods were cast now over helm and head. Their horses were
strong and of proud bearing, but rough-haired; and one stood there
without a rider, Aragorn's own horse that they had brought from the
North; Roheryn was his name. There was no gleam of stone or gold, nor
any fair thing in all their gear and harness; nor did their riders
bear any badge or token, save only that each cload was pinned upon the
left shoulder y a brooch of silver shaped like a rayed star.
"The king mounted his horse, Snowmane, and Merry sat beside him on his
pony: Stybba was his name. Presently Eomer came out from the gate, and
with him was Aragorn, and Halbarad bearing the great staff close-furled
in black, and two tall men, neither young nor old. So much alike were
they, the sons of Elrond, that few could tell them apart: dark-haired,
grey-eyed, and their faces elven-fair, clad alike in bright mail beneath
cloaks of silver-grey...."
The choice appointed the children of Elrond must have been well-known to the
Elves, so Legolas may be forgiven expressing some ambiguity with respect to
Elladan and Elrohir. He did not yet know (or anyone else) of which kind they
would choose to belong to.
--
\ / Worlds of Imagination on the Web
\/ Mic...@xenite.org
/\ Martinez <http://www.xenite.org/index.htm>
/ \ENITE.org................................................
Celia Malm
"Martin T. Kutschker" <e902...@student.tuwien.ac.at> penned the
following:
>Celia Malm wrote:
>> Actually, in dicussing this with someone privately, I came to the
>> conclusion that it's very possible that the whole "giving him her
>> seat" thing was just a gracious way of presenting the idea to him.
>I would think so. Try reading Letters #246 if you're interested in this
>subject.
It would help if I HAD Letters. Not all of us have been able to afford
all the extra stuff, you know.
Steuard Jensen
"Bill Stefanelli" <ws...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> I reread RoTK and I think I understand now. It states that Arwen was
> given the same choice as "Tinuviel" to remain or to go West. If she
> remained... well we know the rest. Why Elrond's children were given
> this choice I do not know. But Arwen anyway gave her seat on the
> grey ship to Frodo. I must assume that Elrond's boys would get
I have a very clear memory of reading not too long ago that the Sons
of Elrond remained in Rivendell (and were joined by Celeborn, in fact)
after the end of the Third Age, and I believe that it was also stated
that their choice was delayed, though no reason for the delay was
given.
However, I have looked in all the places that I thought that passage
might have been, and have been unable to find it. (I've checked the
Appendices of LotR and most of the likely places in Unfinished Tales
and the Silmarillion, though I could easily have missed it.) Can
anyone remind me where to look? (Michael? You know the books better
than anyone I've met...) I'm starting to wonder if I'm just crazy...
Steuard Jensen
Steuard Jensen
g-d...@geocities.com wrote:
> 2. Arwen didn't give away her seat. she chose to stay in middle earth,
> and to die because she was in love with Aragorn. correct me if i'm
> wrong. it was her choice. you sorta make it seem like she, elladan,
> and elrohir are the only ones(excluding luthien) that had the
> choice./..well, if for some design by the gods, some other elf fell in
> love with a human, and they were married, when the human died, the elf
> would not stay long in middle earth, they would soon depart...or die
> because of grief. that is the same thing that happened to arwen. after
> aragorn died, she departed, and went to lothlorien, and there laid down
> in a bed of flowers. That is what happened.
In Appendix A of LotR, in section I.i. immediately before we learn
about the Valar granting Numenor to the Edain, Tolkien wrote
"But to the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed: to pass
with him from the circles of the world; or if they remained to become
mortal and die in Middle-earth."
This seems rather unequivocal to me. Again, as I said in a related
post, this does not explain the fate of Elladan and Elrohir, but it
does establish the ground rules for them and their sister.
Steuard Jensen
Margaret R. Dean
In article <6a83v0$d...@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>,
Celia Malm <per...@ix.REMOVESPAMnetcom.com> wrote:
>It would help if I HAD Letters. Not all of us have been able to afford
>all the extra stuff, you know.
Library? Interlibrary loan? I think you would =enjoy= it tremendously,
if naught else.
--Margaret Dean
<marg...@access.digex.net>
Michael Martinez
In article <6a868p$s...@access2.digex.net>, marg...@access2.digex.net says...
>
>In article <6a83v0$d...@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>,
>Celia Malm <per...@ix.REMOVESPAMnetcom.com> wrote:
>
>>It would help if I HAD Letters. Not all of us have been able to afford
>>all the extra stuff, you know.
>
>Library? Interlibrary loan? I think you would =enjoy= it tremendously,
>if naught else.
Careful, folks!
We wouldn't want any flame wars started over how some people follow up to
others in these news gr--
oops.
Too late.
Michael Martinez
In article <6a83bi$r29$1...@cinenews.claremont.edu>, sje...@hmc.edu says...
>I have a very clear memory of reading not too long ago that the Sons
>of Elrond remained in Rivendell (and were joined by Celeborn, in fact)
>after the end of the Third Age, and I believe that it was also stated
>that their choice was delayed, though no reason for the delay was
>given.
Celeborn's sojourn in Rivendell is mentioned in the PROLOGUE to THE LORD OF
THE RINGS (look at the last few paragraphs). It's also mentioned in "The
Tale of Years", Appendix B, in the events which occurred after the War
of the Ring.
Celeborn met with Thranduil in the middle of the forest after Dol Guldur
was destroyed and they divided it into three parts. Celeborn then established
the Kingdom of East Lorien, returning the Silvan Elves of Lorien to their
ancestral lands (more-or-less). He went with Galadriel to Gondor for the
wedding of Arwen and Aragorn, then returned with Galadriel to East Lorien.
A couple of years later she went to the Havens and some years after that
Celeborn went to live with Elladan and Elrohir in Rivendell. Merry may have
met Celeborn there since he visited Rivendell and did not mention that
Celeborn had departed. It would explain how the hobbits knew that Celeborn
had left East Lorien.
Sometime in the Fourth Age Celeborn finally sought the havens and "with him
went the last living memory of the Elder Days in Middle-earth".
Martin T. Kutschker
Michael Martinez wrote:
>
> [footnote to letter 246]
>
> [letter 154]
>
> [letter 153]
> ["The Passing of the Grey Company" (THE RETURN OF THE KING)]
Thank you, Michael! Actually I was willing to quote the footnote, but the I
dediced for Celia to ask for it. After all I don't type THAT fast.
Bill Stefanelli
Andy wrote in message <34C699...@geocities.com>...
>>
>> I reread RoTK and I think I understand now. It states that Arwen was
given
>> the same choice as "Tinuviel" to remain or to go West. If she remained...
>> well we know the rest. Why Elrond's children were given this choice I do
not
>> know. But Arwen anyway gave her seat on the grey ship to Frodo. I must
>> assume that Elrond's boys would get similar choices? But we never find
>> out....
>
>one thing I have to say about Arwen 'giving' away her seat to frodo.
>Actually two things..
>
>1. if she gave away her seat to frodo, then who gave away their seat so
>bilbo could go?
>I don't really think that anybody gave away any seat. but the two
>hobbits and, later gimli, if I remember correctly, were asked to go
>because of their contributions...being the ringbearers, adn such...
>
Well, Arwen states that Frodo may go in her place. I can't answer for Bilbo,
Sam, Gimli....
>2. Arwen didn't give away her seat. she chose to stay in middle earth,
>and to die because she was in love with Aragorn. correct me if i'm
>wrong. it was her choice. you sorta make it seem like she, elladan,
>and elrohir are the only ones(excluding luthien) that had the
>choice./..well, if for some design by the gods, some other elf fell in
>love with a human, and they were married, when the human died, the elf
>would not stay long in middle earth, they would soon depart...or die
>because of grief. that is the same thing that happened to arwen. after
>aragorn died, she departed, and went to lothlorien, and there laid down
>in a bed of flowers. That is what happened.
I don't recall reading anywhere that all Elves had such a choice. Could you
direct me to this, because it changes my fundemental understanding that
Luthien was a very special exception, as was Arwen. My question is why does
Arwen have this choice?
David Salo
In article <6a83bi$r29$1...@cinenews.claremont.edu>, sje...@hmc.edu (Steuard
Jensen) wrote:
> I have a very clear memory of reading not too long ago that the Sons
> of Elrond remained in Rivendell (and were joined by Celeborn, in fact)
> after the end of the Third Age, and I believe that it was also stated
> that their choice was delayed, though no reason for the delay was
> given.
>
> However, I have looked in all the places that I thought that passage
> might have been, and have been unable to find it
It's at the end of the Prologue to The Lord of the Rings (The Fellowship
of the Ring, p. 25)
David Salo
Bill Stefanelli
Lwc inc wrote in message <19980122013...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
>Bill Stefanelli wrote:
>>Lisa Hilton wrote
>>>Bill Stefanelli wrote:
>>>> Here's one that confuses me. In RoTK we have Elrond's boys accompanying
>>>> Aragorn, and of course Legolas is there. At one point Legolas states
that
>>>> they look like Elven Princes (shouldn't they?). On the Paths of the
Dead
>>>> only Legolas the Elf is uneffected by the spirits of men. And on at
least
>>>> one occasion I believe it is stated that Legolas is representing the
>>Elves
>>>> in the company (when Elladan and Elrohir are also there). Now, I know
>>that
SNIP
>Elrond was half-elven, and was married to an elven woman. Since his sons
(and
>daughter) had some human blood, they are entitled to the choice. IIRC,
Elladan
>and Elrohir sailed with Bilbo and Frodo. Also, IIRC, Arwen did not give up
her
>seat so that Frodo could go. She voluntarily chose to stay behind with
Aragorn
>and become mortal, so she could be in the Undying Lands with him after he
died.
> If someone can refute this with a quote or two, please do so. That way I
can
>partially repair my faulty memory:).
>
I understand that Arwen does not remain so that Frodo can go, only that she
is allowing for Frodo to go in her place (since she is staying for Aragorn
and chosing mortality). In RoTK Elladan and Elrohir are not mentioned as
sailing with Bilbo and Frodo.
E. J. Kloczko
Celia Malm wrote:
>
> "Martin T. Kutschker" <e902...@student.tuwien.ac.at> penned the
> following:
>
> >Celia Malm wrote:
>
> >> Actually, in dicussing this with someone privately, I came to the
> >> conclusion that it's very possible that the whole "giving him her
> >> seat" thing was just a gracious way of presenting the idea to him.
>
> >I would think so. Try reading Letters #246 if you're interested in this
> >subject.
>
> all the extra stuff, you know.
>
>
"Letters" have been published TEN years ago, not ten days !
EJK
Eirik Berg Hanssen
In article <34C8D1...@mygale.org> "E. J. Kloczko" <la...@mygale.org> writes:
> Celia Malm wrote:
> >
> > It would help if I HAD Letters. Not all of us have been able to afford
> > all the extra stuff, you know.
>
> "Letters" have been published TEN years ago, not ten days !
It is still an "extra" not everyone can afford. I got mine just
two or three years ago -- and I still have not bought UT, Tom Bombadil,
Tree and Leaf, and a couple of HOME volumes (including the ones
dealing with LoTR) ...
... besides, if I bought it all I would need more shelf place ...
Libraries, my friends, libraries ...
Eirik
--
Eirik Berg Hanssen | Eirik....@fi.uib.no
Think PInc! | Just this .sig then nothing more.
Andy
>
> >2. Arwen didn't give away her seat. she chose to stay in middle earth,
> >and to die because she was in love with Aragorn. correct me if i'm
> >wrong. it was her choice. you sorta make it seem like she, elladan,
> >and elrohir are the only ones(excluding luthien) that had the
> >choice./..well, if for some design by the gods, some other elf fell in
> >love with a human, and they were married, when the human died, the elf
> >would not stay long in middle earth, they would soon depart...or die
> >because of grief. that is the same thing that happened to arwen. after
> >aragorn died, she departed, and went to lothlorien, and there laid down
> >in a bed of flowers. That is what happened.
>
> I don't recall reading anywhere that all Elves had such a choice. Could you
> direct me to this, because it changes my fundemental understanding that
> Luthien was a very special exception, as was Arwen. My question is why does
> Arwen have this choice?
actually, I don't remember exactly where this is stated, but I do
remember that tied to the earth, and that they are immortal in a sense
that they live as long as arda is alive, and that they may only die from
mortal wounds, and grief. there might be another clause in that death
thing, but since I don't have my books handy, I can't find it...
Now, since they may die from grief, and if, by chance it was possible
that an elf fell in love with a human, then when that human died, the
elf would then most likely loose their will to live, and in essence, be
so fraught with grief that they would die. that is what Arwen did(by my
understanding, I haven't read the appendices for quite some time...)
The only problem with this(as I have just know seen), is that when they
depart their physical bodies, where do they go? would they follow their
love, or would they go the way of the other elves. that, unfortunately,
I can't answer. but, I have always fancied that they would be allowed
to follow their love. besides that, who says that only the elves that
tolkien specifically wrote about fell in love with a human? who says
that there werent' any other ones? cause I am sure that there was, just
that nothing major came of it....
anyways...
COPYCLB142
>Now, since they may die from grief, and if, by chance it was possible
>that an elf fell in love with a human, then when that human died, the
>elf would then most likely loose their will to live, and in essence, be
>so fraught with grief that they would die. that is what Arwen did(by my
>understanding, I haven't read the appendices for quite some time...)
>
>The only problem with this(as I have just know seen), is that when they
>depart their physical bodies, where do they go? would they follow their
>love, or would they go the way of the other elves. that, unfortunately,
>I can't answer. but, I have always fancied that they would be allowed
>to follow their love. besides that, who says that only the elves that
>tolkien specifically wrote about fell in love with a human? who says
>that there werent' any other ones? cause I am sure that there was, just
>that nothing major came of it....
>
>
Arwen was given the choice of Luthien, and chose to become mortal to be with
Aragorn. She would have eventualy died with time, but the parting of Aragorn
and her substancual longer life made her greive, and thus die. She then would
go the way all mortals did after death, and pass through the Gates of Time to
the unknown fate.
joe
Bruce Alan Wilson
Master V (mas...@fortunecity.com) wrote:
I haven't the books with me here, but I remember in one of the appendices
JRRT says something like 'to the children of Elrond a choice was also
appointed', and that for Elrond 'all the chances of the War of the Ring
were frought with sorrow.' I don't think it ever says in so many words
that Eladan and Elrohir stayed on and chose mortality, but everywhere
they are mentioned it says that they hung around (it doesn't but it as
'slang-y' as that, of course!) with the Dunedain of the North rather than
the elves of Rivendell, and they are not mentioned as being in Elrond and
Galadriel's company going to the Havens. Most people I have talked to
seem to assume that they decided to stay with their sister, rather than
go with their father, although I will admit that I cannot think of
anywhere that it says so in so many words in the text.
As to the term 'half-elven', some have objected to calling the children
of Elrond that because they were mathematically more than that--they were
mostly Elf, with just a touch of Man, (and, of course, a *trace* of Maiar
great-great-grandma Melian.) However, the term 'half-' in speaking of a
person's racial heritage can mean just 'mixed.' A person of mixed White
and American Indian heritage, as long as the AI strain was noticable in
the person's appearance, used to be called a 'half-breed.' (The term was
never very complementary, and is now *definately* offensive. I would
advise you NEVER to use it!)
Robert S. Coren
In article <88585853...@news.charweb.org>,
Bruce Alan Wilson <web...@charweb.org> wrote:
>Master V (mas...@fortunecity.com) wrote:
>: The sons of Elrond, as well as
>: Arwen, had to be elven. They weren't half-elven, like Earendil, or his
>: sons Elrond and Elros. Elrond chose to be Elven, soo from the moment he
>: chose to be elven, boom, he was elven. Celebrian was all elven to begin
>: with. They were both elven.
>
>JRRT says something like 'to the children of Elrond a choice was also
>appointed', and that for Elrond 'all the chances of the War of the Ring
>were frought with sorrow.' I don't think it ever says in so many words
>that Eladan and Elrohir stayed on and chose mortality, but everywhere
>they are mentioned it says that they hung around (it doesn't but it as
>'slang-y' as that, of course!) with the Dunedain of the North rather than
>the elves of Rivendell, and they are not mentioned as being in Elrond and
>Galadriel's company going to the Havens. Most people I have talked to
>seem to assume that they decided to stay with their sister, rather than
>go with their father, although I will admit that I cannot think of
>anywhere that it says so in so many words in the text.
To the best of my knowledge, there's nothing in any published text
that says what the final choice of Elrond's sons was. There's an
oft-quoted letter (I'm going to have to get _Letters_ one of these
days) that says "their choice is delayed, and they remain for a
while", carefully avoiding saying what that choice was ultimately to
be (like, maybe, he never decided).
As to what "kind" they were: in the "Tale of Aragorn and Arwen",
Aragorn sees the "Elven-light" in Arwen's eyes, and she says, "The
children of Elrond have the life of the Eldar". This doesn't quite
say that they were Elves, but that's how I always interpreted it. In
the course of many discussions of this type, I've come around to the
view that JRRT deliberately kept their status ambiguous.
--
-------Robert Coren (co...@spdcc.com)-------------------------
"My homosexuality is neither strange, surprising, unusual, or silly."
--FJ!! van Wingerde
COPYCLB142
> Most people I have talked to
>seem to assume that they decided to stay with their sister,
I'm just wondering, if Elladan and Elrohir stay in Middle Earth to be with
their sister, would that mean that there was a greater love between them and
Arwen (and ME likewise) then to the Elven people they spent most of their lives
with? And if so, why didn't Arwen travel to be with them in her grief instead
of going to Lorien after Aragorn's death? For that matter why isn't there more
mention of them in the tale of Aragorn and Arwen, or any (I'm not sure if there
is, but I don't believe so)? Also there does not seem to be much remorse
between Elrond and his sons if they were to stay. If the possability existed
that they were to stay isn't it feasable that they might have accompanied
Elrond to the Gray Havens to see him off?
joe
Michael Martinez
In article <34CC10...@geocities.com>, Andy says...
>
>Now, since they may die from grief, and if, by chance it was possible
>that an elf fell in love with a human, then when that human died, the
>elf would then most likely loose their will to live, and in essence, be
>so fraught with grief that they would die. that is what Arwen did(by my
>understanding, I haven't read the appendices for quite some time...)
Arwen became mortal and died as a mortal woman. She may or may not have
died of grief but she was no longer immortal as an Elf when her time came.
>The only problem with this(as I have just know seen), is that when they
>depart their physical bodies, where do they go? would they follow their
>love, or would they go the way of the other elves.
When Elves die, they are summoned to Mandos. If they choose not to obey the
summons their spirits remain wherever they are but they cannot re-embody
themselves. When Morgoth was in Arda he could summon the spirits of those
Elves who refused the summons to Mandos, and so enslaved them. However,
though Tolkien mentioned this in an essay published in MORGOTH'S RING, he
did not really expand on what happened to those Elvish spirits.
Prembone
>I'm just wondering, if Elladan and Elrohir stay in Middle Earth to be with
their sister, would that mean that there was a greater love between them and
Arwen (and ME likewise) then to the Elven people they spent most of their lives
with?
Just a thought: Maybe E & E chose mortality because of an intuitive sense or
glimpse that there was something in the wisdom of the One in creating the
"second-born" that way. A huge theme in Tolkien's work is that immortality
isn't all it's cracked up to be.
I could write a whole essay on this subject, but those of you who have read my
other postings on other threads are probably begging, "Please don't!" So I
will be kind. ;-) For now.
Filip Karlsson
There's a rumor that on 22 Jan 1998 01:58:17 GMT
Prembone said:
> Luke the Paper Clip Afficionado wrote: IIRC, Elladan and
> Elrohir sailed
> with Bilbo and Frodo.
>
> handy (the
> PC is in a different room, and I rarely bring LOTR in here when I'm
> checking my
> e-mail) but I do remember a reference (probably in the appendices) to
> Elladan
> and Elrohir staying behind at Rivendell, later joined by Celeborn,
> when Elrond
> sailed. I would infer that they then became the Masters of Rivendell.
> As far
> as I know, Tolkien never says whether E and E eventually sailed or if
> they,
> like their sister, chose mortality.
"It is probable that Meriadoc obtained assistance and information from
Rivendell, which he visited more than once. There, though Elrond had
departed, his sons long remained, together with some of the High-elven
folk. It is said that Celeborn went to dwell there after the departure
of Galadriel; but there is no record of the day when at last he sought
the Grey Havens, and with him the last living memory of the Elder Days
in Middle-earth."
So it seems Elladan and Elrohir left too, eventually. I'm a little
curious as to why it isn't mentioned if they went with Celeborn, or if
they stayed even longer. (One could argue that they must have gone
too, if the last living memory of the Elder Days had left, but that
depends on the definition of the Elder Days...)
Filip Karlsson
Oh, if I were you I'd eat that pie...
Robert S. Coren
In article <MPG.f31c30d2...@203.75.224.8>,
Filip Karlsson <fi...@APPLEPIE.flippoft.a.se> wrote:
>
>"It is probable that Meriadoc obtained assistance and information from
>Rivendell, which he visited more than once. There, though Elrond had
>departed, his sons long remained, together with some of the High-elven
>folk. It is said that Celeborn went to dwell there after the departure
>of Galadriel; but there is no record of the day when at last he sought
>the Grey Havens, and with him the last living memory of the Elder Days
>in Middle-earth."
>
>So it seems Elladan and Elrohir left too, eventually. I'm a little
>curious as to why it isn't mentioned if they went with Celeborn, or if
>they stayed even longer. (One could argue that they must have gone
>too, if the last living memory of the Elder Days had left, but that
>depends on the definition of the Elder Days...)
I always thought "the Elder Days" meant the First Age, in which case
Elladan and Elrohir wouldn't count (they were born during the Second
Age, IIRC).
--
-------Robert Coren (co...@spdcc.com)-------------------------
"Aric has a booming voice like yours -- and a lot less discretion."
--Mike Thomas to me, on the subject of disturbing the neighbors
Michael Martinez
In article <6bfloh$3u4$1...@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com>, co...@ursolaris.spdcc.com (Robert S. Coren) wrote:
>I always thought "the Elder Days" meant the First Age, in which case
>Elladan and Elrohir wouldn't count (they were born during the Second
>Age, IIRC).
Elder Days could refer either to the First Age or the first three ages. The
"First Age" usually includes all the ages prior to the First Age of the Sun in
which the Elves recorded legend or history.
The context for the Celeborn passage is not clear, but it seems to me to refer
to the First Age, and not to the first three ages.
Aragorn942
About the last living memory of the Elder Days,I don't think that is right. It
is said the Cirdan was the last elf to leave Middle-Earth. Cirdan is just or
older as Celeborn was. So Cirdan left with the last living memory of the Elder
Days.
Aragorn942
Robert S. Coren
In article <6bg13h$1...@camel15.mindspring.com>,
Michael Martinez <Mic...@xenite.org> wrote:
>In article <6bfloh$3u4$1...@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com>, co...@ursolaris.spdcc.com (Robert S. Coren) wrote:
>>I always thought "the Elder Days" meant the First Age, in which case
>>Elladan and Elrohir wouldn't count (they were born during the Second
>>Age, IIRC).
>
>Elder Days could refer either to the First Age or the first three ages. The
>"First Age" usually includes all the ages prior to the First Age of the Sun in
>which the Elves recorded legend or history.
I'm not sure what "ages" you're talking about here. Does this
alternative meaning of "Elder Days" ("the first three ages") include
what we usually call the Second Age and the Third Age? (i.e., the
entire period covered by _Sil_ and LoTR)? This seems like an unlikely
interpretation in the context of Celeborn's departure, unless it was
really later than the deaths of everyone who was around for the War of
the Ring. (Which, I suppose, is not impossible; but who, then, is
supposed to have written this sentence in the Red Book?)
--
-------Robert Coren (co...@spdcc.com)-------------------------
"Compared to my lover, toilet paper looks trivial, but I have
no intention of giving it up."
--John Whiteside
Robert S. Coren
In article <19980207005...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
Aragorn942 <arago...@aol.com> wrote:
>About the last living memory of the Elder Days,I don't think that is right. It
>is said the Cirdan was the last elf to leave Middle-Earth.
Where does it say that? (I'm not sayinbg it doesn't, I just don't
remember it.)
--
-------Robert Coren (co...@spdcc.com)-------------------------
"Remember, the receiving person always backs up."
--Contra-dance caller, explaining a move to a roomful of queerfolk
Michael Martinez
In article <6bgl8b$pgu$1...@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com>, co...@ursolaris.spdcc.com (Robert S. Coren) wrote:
>In article <6bg13h$1...@camel15.mindspring.com>,
>Michael Martinez <Mic...@xenite.org> wrote:
>>
>>Elder Days could refer either to the First Age or the first three ages. The
>>"First Age" usually includes all the ages prior to the First Age of the Sun in
>>which the Elves recorded legend or history.
>
>I'm not sure what "ages" you're talking about here. Does this
>alternative meaning of "Elder Days" ("the first three ages") include
>what we usually call the Second Age and the Third Age? (i.e., the
>entire period covered by _Sil_ and LoTR)?
"ages prior to the First Age of the Sun" means all ages prior to the first
three ages. Events in THE LORD OF THE RINGS take place in the Third and
Fourth Ages.
According to Tolkien:
"In the Fourth Age the earlier ages were often called the *Elder Days*;
but that name was properly given only to the days before the casting out
of Morgoth...."
(From Appendix B in THE LORD OF THE RINGS)
>This seems like an unlikely interpretation in the context of Celeborn's
>departure, unless it was really later than the deaths of everyone who was
> around for the War of the Ring. (Which, I suppose, is not impossible; but
>who, then, is supposed to have written this sentence in the Red Book?)
The Red Book's authorship is discussed in the Prologue, where it indicates the
last dateable comment was made by Findegil, Kings Writer, in Fourth Age 172.
There is nothing in the text which indicates that Celeborn left before that
time. But then, nothing in the text indicates he left AFTERWARD either.
The Prologue is not presented as part of the Red Book itself, since the
history of the book and its sources is discussed there.
Filip Karlsson
There's a rumor that on 7 Feb 1998 03:44:44 GMT
Robert S. Coren said:
> In article <19980207005...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
> Aragorn942 <arago...@aol.com> wrote:
> >About the last living memory of the Elder Days,I don't think that is right. It
> >is said the Cirdan was the last elf to leave Middle-Earth.
>
> Where does it say that? (I'm not sayinbg it doesn't, I just don't
> remember it.)
Celeborn belonged to the first elves (or perhaps the reference to
Celeborn was in tLotR?), the reference to Cirdan being last was
somewhere in tLotR I believe, but it was in the form of a legend I
think... (A lot of I_thinks here, hmm, perhaps someone else has a
better memory than me. ;) Anyway, the part about Cirdan being the last
is probably right, but the part about Celeborn is what JRRT himself
wrote in the prologue of FotR.
BTW, it's kind of funny that my follow-up to an old thread stirred
some response. I wrote it a couple of weeks (two and a half, I think)
ago, but when I was to send it my modem was broken. Recently I got fed
and bought one for the in between period, and then my news reader sent
this old message automatically. I had quite forgotten that I ever
wrote it! (In case anyone would wonder... ;)
Michael Martinez
In article <MPG.f49a45a3...@203.75.224.8>, fi...@APPLEPIE.flippoft.a.se (Filip Karlsson) wrote:
>
>I think it says somewhere in the Silmarillion that both Cirdan and
>Celeborn belonged to the first elves (or perhaps the reference to
>Celeborn was in tLotR?),
Nope. Believe me, if someone could have found a passage like THAT, some of
the great debates of these news groups would have been cut short before they
became Great Debates.
>the reference to Cirdan being last was
>somewhere in tLotR I believe, but it was in the form of a legend I
>think... (A lot of I_thinks here, hmm, perhaps someone else has a
>better memory than me. ;) Anyway, the part about Cirdan being the last
>is probably right, but the part about Celeborn is what JRRT himself
>wrote in the prologue of FotR.
The legend is given in Appendix A to LOTR and doesn't say that Cirdan will be
the last Elf to leave Middle-earth. Rather, the writer of the passage
(presumably a hobbit) says that some people believe Cirdan still dwells at the
Grey Havens and will leave with the last ship.
"Last Ship", actually. The words are capitalized.
Filip Karlsson
There's a rumor that on Tue, 10 Feb 1998 00:08:22 GMT
Michael Martinez said:
<SNIP>
> Nope. Believe me, if someone could have found a passage like THAT, some of
> the great debates of these news groups would have been cut short before they
> became Great Debates.
I take your word for it... ;)
<SNIP>
> The legend is given in Appendix A to LOTR and doesn't say that Cirdan will be
> the last Elf to leave Middle-earth. Rather, the writer of the passage
> (presumably a hobbit) says that some people believe Cirdan still dwells at the
> Grey Havens and will leave with the last ship.
>
> "Last Ship", actually. The words are capitalized.
That's the one I thought of. The prologue is supposed to be written by
a hobbit too though, isn't it? So anyway; it isn't clear who came
first, nor left last of Celeborn and Cirdan, right?
Michael Martinez
Without looking (I'm kind of tired), I can't think of any part of the Prologue
which isn't supposed to be from J.R.R. Tolkien as translator of the Red Book
himself.
The only account of the First Elves is the story provided in THE WAR OF THE
JEWELS (and associated with an entry in "Quendi and Eldar") about Imin, Tata,
and Enel. Some people have disputed the authority of the story since it is
presented as a children's tale.
In "The Lhammas" (THE LOST ROAD AND OTHER WRITINGS, HOME Volume V) Ingwe was
said to have been the first Elf to awaken, but Tolkien did not repeat this
assertion in similar passages in "Quenta Silmarillion", which was written
later.
Elwe, having one or two brothers (Olwe and Elmo) and one or two "kinsmen"
(Cirdan and Eol) seems a good candidate for a 2nd or later generation Elf.
Finwe is not said to have any relatives contemporary with him, but neither is
he ever said to have been born in the first generation.
Cirdan is mentioned far earlier than Celeborn, and if the descent from Elmo is
accepted it would seem that Celeborn is indeed younger than Cirdan. So,
Celeborn's departure and the comment about his leaving with the "last living
memory of the Elder Days" would imply that Cirdan either departed before
Celeborn or with him.
NETCOM USERS: If I were you, I'd look at news.admin.net-abuse.usneet
William
Michael Martinez wrote:
>
>
> NETCOM USERS: If I were you, I'd look at news.admin.net-abuse.usneet
Still making threats?
--
_________________________________________________
William Cloud Hicklin "And he named him craven,
soli...@gamewood.net and lord of slaves"
_________________________________________________
Michael Martinez
In article <34E32287...@gamewood.net>, soli...@gamewood.net wrote:
>Michael Martinez wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> NETCOM USERS: If I were you, I'd look at news.admin.net-abuse.usneet
>
>Still making threats?
Are you still robbing trains?
Celia Malm
William <soli...@gamewood.net> penned the following:
>Michael Martinez wrote:
>> NETCOM USERS: If I were you, I'd look at news.admin.net-abuse.usneet
>Still making threats?
No, he's not. However the people over on that group ARE threatening a
UDP against Netcom. I'm glad Michael brought it to my attention
(although I wish he would have been more clear about what was going
on.)
If I disappear suddenly, it will be because of the UDP.
Cee
------------------------------------------------
"If I must be this...this thing they have made of me,
I shall at least give it my voice and my heart."
Walker Boh
Chris Metzler
In article <34E32287...@gamewood.net> soli...@gamewood.net writes:
>
>
>Michael Martinez wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> NETCOM USERS: If I were you, I'd look at news.admin.net-abuse.usneet
>
>Still making threats?
Nope, he's trying to be helpful.
-c
--
Chris Metzler Work Address: Astrophysics, MS-209
630-840-3662 (office) Fermi National Accelerator Lab
met...@oddjob.uchicago.edu (play) P.O. Box 500
met...@denali.fnal.spam-me-not.gov (work) Batavia, IL 60510 USA
Barney must be destroyed.