Oswald the patsy?
Robert Harris
benefit of hindsight, the conspirators would expect him to go outside with
the other TSBD employees or be in a position where he was seen by other
employees. In either case, he would have had a solid alibi.
But perhaps, he was another kind of patsy.
If Oswald took part in the attack, then doesn't it make sense that he
would be told to meet up later with his co-conspirators? And in fact, at
the time that he was approached by officer Tippit, he was on a direct
course to Jack Ruby's apartment, as this map clearly demonstrates.
http://www.jfkhistory.com/pix/mapruby.gif
If that was the case, then the others knew the general path that Oswald
would take, to get there. It would have been easy for Tippit to intercept
him.
It has never made sense that Tippit would have randomly chosen to stop
Oswald, who was far from the scene of the assassination and did not match
the description that Brennon gave to the police.
And after he was stopped, why couldn't Oswald have cooly talked his way
out of the situation, as he did at the depository? After all, Tippit had
absolutely no reason to suspect him at that point.
The only logical answer is that Tippit knew exactly who he was looking for
and knew the path he would be traveling. And he had a tragically big
mouth, letting Oswald know what his plans for him were.
There is no doubt that Ruby knew Tippit. He simply told him where to look
for Oswald and expected the cop to do the job that he would ultimately get
stuck with.
Robert Harris
Robert Harris
<reharris1-8FB34...@70-3-168-216.pools.spcsdns.net>,
Robert Harris <reha...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> It makes no sense to imagine Oswald being an innocent patsy. Without
> benefit of hindsight, the conspirators would expect him to go outside with
> the other TSBD employees or be in a position where he was seen by other
> employees. In either case, he would have had a solid alibi.
>
> But perhaps, he was another kind of patsy.
>
> If Oswald took part in the attack, then doesn't it make sense that he
> would be told to meet up later with his co-conspirators? And in fact, at
> the time that he was approached by officer Tippit, he was on a direct
> course to Jack Ruby's apartment, as this map clearly demonstrates.
>
> http://www.jfkhistory.com/pix/mapruby.gif
>
> If that was the case, then the others knew the general path that Oswald
> would take, to get there. It would have been easy for Tippit to intercept
> him.
>
> It has never made sense that Tippit would have randomly chosen to stop
> Oswald, who was far from the scene of the assassination and did not match
> the description that Brennon gave to the police.
>
> And after he was stopped, why couldn't Oswald have cooly talked his way
> out of the situation, as he did at the depository? After all, Tippit had
> absolutely no reason to suspect him at that point.
Minor correction. Of course, Oswald didn't talk when he was spotted at the
depository, but he certainly remained calm and cool, even after Baker had
drawn his gun.
It makes no sense that Tippit could have provoked him to draw his weapon
unless Tippit said something that was very provocative.
Robert Harris
Bud
> It makes no sense to imagine Oswald being an innocent patsy.
CTers talk about sense like dogs play the piano. Clumsily with little
skill.
> Without
> benefit of hindsight, the conspirators would expect him to go outside with
> the other TSBD employees or be in a position where he was seen by other
> employees. In either case, he would have had a solid alibi.
>
> But perhaps, he was another kind of patsy.
The kind that kills people.
> If Oswald took part in the attack, then doesn't it make sense that he
> would be told to meet up later with his co-conspirators?
No. It makes sense that he would be expected to be caught at the
scene of the crime.
> And in fact, at
> the time that he was approached by officer Tippit, he was on a direct
> course to Jack Ruby's apartment, as this map clearly demonstrates.
>
> http://www.jfkhistory.com/pix/mapruby.gif
>
> If that was the case, then the others knew the general path that Oswald
> would take, to get there. It would have been easy for Tippit to intercept
> him.
Yah, good plan, let him run free, and just assume you will be able
to get control of him later.
> It has never made sense that Tippit would have randomly chosen to stop
> Oswald, who was far from the scene of the assassination and did not match
> the description that Brennon gave to the police.
Perhaps cops have a better understanding of the nature of
descriptions than kooks.
> And after he was stopped, why couldn't Oswald have cooly talked his way
> out of the situation, as he did at the depository?
Why is an apple different than an orange?
In the encounter in the TSBD, he was likely unarmed, in a very short
time he had his boss vouching for his presence in the building, and
the cop thought the shots came from a different location.
It is possibly Oswald did try to talk his way out of his situation
with Tippit. When Tippit left the car for a closer look at him, the
likelihood that he could talk his way out of quickly disappeared.
Also, how would Oswald know whether his name and an excellent
description given byhis co-workers wasn`t being broadcast over police
radio? Oswald may have tried the "Hidel" alias, but a closer look at
his wallet would yield his true name.
All in all, Harris demonstrates why these hobbyists are really not
up to the task of looking into this case. Simple things elude them,
they make false constructs, and their thinking leaves a lot to be
desired.Totally unsuited for figuring anything out. These folks
criticize the WC, like they should have returned "We figure Oswald was
going to Ruby`s apartment when Tippit, who knew Oswald would be
heading there (somehow, we aren`t interested in really supporting
these things) was tapped to intercept him."
>After all, Tippit had
> absolutely no reason to suspect him at that point.
Proven false by Tippit`s actions.
> The only logical answer is that Tippit knew exactly who he was looking for
> and knew the path he would be traveling.
Yah, to paraphrase Sherlock Holmes, "When you remove all the
reasonable explanations, only the retarded ones retards favor remain".
> And he had a tragically big
> mouth, letting Oswald know what his plans for him were.
What were his plans for him, retard? You wouldn`t suggest a fallen
policeman was sent to commit murder with the flimsy support you are
offering to support this astounding idea, would you? How much support
is a retard saying "I think this must be what happened" when trying to
advance such extraordinary ideas? Don`t you need evidence?
> There is no doubt that Ruby knew Tippit. He simply told him where to look
> for Oswald and expected the cop to do the job that he would ultimately get
> stuck with.
You`ll never have the credible evidence to support this nonsense, so
why do you kooks even go to these places?
> Robert Harris
Robert
> It makes no sense to imagine Oswald being an innocent patsy. Without
> benefit of hindsight, the conspirators would expect him to go outside with
> the other TSBD employees or be in a position where he was seen by other
> employees. In either case, he would have had a solid alibi.
You are being naive here. He would have been told what to do by the
groups controlling him (the intelligence agencies) and my guess was to
stay near a phone. He was probably told there would be a fake
assassination attempt on JFK to "test" his security, but most
importantly to be able to blame Castro so we could invade Cuba. This
would make sense to LHO as he was being "sheep-dipped" in this area
with his own little organization. He might have been nervous about an
attempt on the President, fake or not, but he was NOT in a position to
argue with those who controlled him. This could explain his mood
swings with Marina as well as extreme stress does this to most
folks.
It was a win, win for them they told LHO IMO, that hey, even the
commie loving JFK could NOT avoid invading Cuba AFTER the head guy
tried to kill him, right? The OTHER win came when they actually did
what they were planning to do AND it was successful, KILL JFK!
> But perhaps, he was another kind of patsy.
He was a patsy has he had NOTHING to do with the crimes he was accused
of. That is the whole point of this board. IF he was guilty in other
ways and you want to pursue it, go ahead, but I am concerned about the
crimes he was accused of. I admit he was involved in a spy game of
some kind, but it would be very tough to nail down exactly what his
role in that game was beyond it being a low level one. The note he
gave to Hosty was vital, and that was why it was destroyed.
> If Oswald took part in the attack, then doesn't it make sense that he
> would be told to meet up later with his co-conspirators? And in fact, at
> the time that he was approached by officer Tippit, he was on a direct
> course to Jack Ruby's apartment, as this map clearly demonstrates.
JDT was in that neighborhood so much many of the residents thought he
lived there too! LHO was doing what you said, he was making his way
to Texas Theater to meet his contact RATHER than doing what most
normal guilty or innocent people would be doing -- leaving town!
Dallas is NOT that far from the Mexican border you know, even for a
man who couldn't drive.
> http://www.jfkhistory.com/pix/mapruby.gif
>
> If that was the case, then the others knew the general path that Oswald
> would take, to get there. It would have been easy for Tippit to intercept
> him.
Unfortunately for the WC, the path to TT did NOT require LHO to go to
10th and Patton Sts. There is NO evidence that will withstand a cross-
examination that shows LHO was ever there. Ditto witness testimony.
> It has never made sense that Tippit would have randomly chosen to stop
> Oswald, who was far from the scene of the assassination and did not match
> the description that Brennon gave to the police.
Of course NOT, that is why the whole claim is false. It also lacks
any evidence that will hold up to a cross-examination.
> And after he was stopped, why couldn't Oswald have cooly talked his way
> out of the situation, as he did at the depository? After all, Tippit had
> absolutely no reason to suspect him at that point.
YOU are ASSUMING he was there and he was stopped by Tippit. Two bad
assumptions based on the available evidence and witness tesitmony
IMO.
> The only logical answer is that Tippit knew exactly who he was looking for
> and knew the path he would be traveling. And he had a tragically big
> mouth, letting Oswald know what his plans for him were.
Tippit was killed by someone he knew AND TRUSTED as he never got his
pistol out of the holster? Who could warrant such trust? I wouldn't
think LHO would even IF he was there as Tippit would NOT have known
him that well. To me, it could ONLY be another cop, and my money
would be on Roscoe White IF I were a betting man.
> There is no doubt that Ruby knew Tippit. He simply told him where to look
> for Oswald and expected the cop to do the job that he would ultimately get
> stuck with.
I think Tippit knew ahead of time of where to look for LHO as he was
probably one of several who were given the role of "executioner" of
LHO IMO.
Neil Coburn
customer was Shoplifting.Tippit put the shoplifter in the police car but
did not take him to the station and did not radio in to report. Tippit
must have let the shoplifter go before he reached the place where he was
killed. The man who shot Tippet must have looked like Oswald.Tippit had
seen this man before at a local restaurant.
Robert Harris
<f64fb467-3bd5-4526...@a7g2000yqk.googlegroups.com>,
Robert <robc...@netscape.com> wrote:
> On Jun 30, 8:10�pm, Robert Harris <reharr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > It makes no sense to imagine Oswald being an innocent patsy. Without
> > benefit of hindsight, the conspirators would expect him to go outside with
> > the other TSBD employees or be in a position where he was seen by other
> > employees. In either case, he would have had a solid alibi.
>
> You are being naive here. He would have been told what to do by the
> groups controlling him (the intelligence agencies) and my guess was to
> stay near a phone.
Ok, so he stands by a phone.
How do you prevent other employees from seeing him?
Look, Oswald was not just an anti-communist. He was a crazy, radical
right wing communist who was so fanatical that he tried to kill himself
when his assignment in Russia fell through.
He was obsessed with Herbert Philbrick, a famous FBI informant and
spokesman for Hoover's war on communism, since he was 13 years old. And
he was very tight with David Ferrie, an equally crazy right-wing
nutcase, who worked for Carlos Marcello, who not only said he was going
to kill JFK but later admitted that he ordered the hit.
Look at my two Youtube vids on him, part 1 and part 2.
And Oswald single handedly, destroyed the FPCC by pretending to be one
of their leaders. He tried to do the same thing to the ACLU and he and
Ferrie checked out the CORE in Clinton, for the obvious purpose of
seeing whether he could do the same thing to them. Every one of those
groups was at the top of Hoover's poop list.
There was no need to set Oswald up. He would have been very disappointed
if he wasn't offered a chance to help out in the assassination.
If you really want to understand where Oswald was coming from, read
Silvia Odio's WC testimony and see what some of the exiles who were
hanging with him, told her.
Robert Harris
yeuhd
> It has never made sense that Tippit would have randomly chosen to stop
> Oswald, who was far from the scene of the assassination and did not match
> the description that Brennon gave to the police.
If Oswald didn't "match" the description broadcast three times over
the police radio, he was close enough to it. The description said a
white male about 5 feet 10 inches, Oswald was 5 feet 9 inches. The
description said about 30, Oswald was 24, and with his receding
hairline looked older. And Oswald indeed had a "slender build".
And it's not unlikely that Oswald was walking fast, wherever he was
going.
Two groups of witnesses saw Oswald on 10th Street. One group saw him
walking west (towards Patton), the other group saw him walking or
facing east (away from Patton). Dale K. Myers makes a good case that
Oswald may have turned around when he saw Tippit's squad car
approaching, and began walking in the opposite direction.
See "Why Tippit stopped Oswald" about a third the way down this page:
http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2008/11/with-malice-tippit-murder-45-years.html
> And after he was stopped, why couldn't Oswald have cooly talked his way
> out of the situation, as he did at the depository? After all, Tippit had
> absolutely no reason to suspect him at that point.
Hypothetical conversation:
"Excuse me, do you live around here?"
"No."
"Can I ask where you were going?"
"Just down the street to the movies."
"You turned around and started walking the other way as I drove up.
You looked like you were in a hurry."
Oswald shrugs.
"Do you have some I.D. on you?"
"Ah…no."
"Okay, could you wait right there?"
Tippit gets out of his car…
Robert Harris
<46a61e58-1653-4274...@n11g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
Bud <sirs...@fast.net> wrote:
> On Jun 30, 11:10 pm, Robert Harris <reharr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > It makes no sense to imagine Oswald being an innocent patsy.
>
> CTers talk about sense like dogs play the piano. Clumsily with little
> skill.
Nothing personal, but that has to be the stupidest insult I have ever
heard.
>
> > Without
> > benefit of hindsight, the conspirators would expect him to go outside with
> > the other TSBD employees or be in a position where he was seen by other
> > employees. In either case, he would have had a solid alibi.
> >
> > But perhaps, he was another kind of patsy.
>
> The kind that kills people.
>
> > If Oswald took part in the attack, then doesn't it make sense that he
> > would be told to meet up later with his co-conspirators?
>
> No. It makes sense that he would be expected to be caught at the
> scene of the
That is absolutely correct.
Without benefit of hindsight, it would seem impossible that a shooter on
the sixth floor, firing an unsuppressed rifle would have failed to
attract a small army of cops, deputies and SS guys charging up the
stairs with guns blazing.
How could they have known that Oswald would be allowed plenty of time to
go downstairs and would only have to confront a solitary officer who all
but ignored him?
He should have been killed in the depository, but he was not.
So Ruby & co had to resort to plan B and eventually, C.
Your theory makes no sense, Bud. Everything depends on ridiculously
unlikely coincidences.
Do you really think that Oswald was just coincidentally on a
shortest-possible-course to Ruby's apartment?
Or that Tippit just coincidentally stopped the one person out of
thousands in Oak Cliff, that happened to be Oswald?
And you would have Oswald 5 miles from the crime scene, incapable of
chatting with Tippit and appearing to be an innocent pedestrian, in
spite of the fact that every other cop who confronted him, said he was
totally cool and never became flustered.
>
> > And in fact, at
> > the time that he was approached by officer Tippit, he was on a direct
> > course to Jack Ruby's apartment, as this map clearly demonstrates.
> >
> > http://www.jfkhistory.com/pix/mapruby.gif
> >
> > If that was the case, then the others knew the general path that Oswald
> > would take, to get there. It would have been easy for Tippit to intercept
> > him.
>
> Yah, good plan, let him run free, and just assume you will be able
> to get control of him later.
Bud, you seem to have lost all semblance of reason here. Why would you
think that the conspirators would want Oswald to escape from the
depository??
>
> > It has never made sense that Tippit would have randomly chosen to stop
> > Oswald, who was far from the scene of the assassination and did not match
> > the description that Brennon gave to the police.
>
> Perhaps cops have a better understanding of the nature of
> descriptions than kooks.
Bud, you seem to be a one-trick-pony. When you are cornered, you always
resort to name calling and personal insults.
That's a poor substitute for critical thinking.
It is YOUR theory that makes no sense, Bud. You can't explain why Oswald
was on a direct path to Ruby's apartment or why Tippit randomly selected
Oswald out of thousands of others who were out and about that day, far
from the crime scene.
And you cannot explain why Oswald was incapable of avoiding a shootout,
which had to have been the very last thing he wanted.
My explanation answers ALL relevant questions, Bud. Yours fails over and
over again. But I suppose you've gotten used to that by now:-)
Robert Harris
curtjester1
> benefit of hindsight, the conspirators would expect him to go outside with
> the other TSBD employees or be in a position where he was seen by other
> employees. In either case, he would have had a solid alibi.
>
know at least that 'something' was going to happen.
> But perhaps, he was another kind of patsy.
>
That would be the crux. Was he told that there was going to be some
shots fired to scare JFK? If he knew that there was going to be a
dead JFK, what was his role, and what was he signing up for?
> If Oswald took part in the attack, then doesn't it make sense that he
> would be told to meet up later with his co-conspirators? And in fact, at
> the time that he was approached by officer Tippit, he was on a direct
> course to Jack Ruby's apartment, as this map clearly demonstrates.
>
Provably negative. Obviously scenarios can go a little wild, but
Oswald was seen in the theater much earlier than what was is often
assumed as a late arriving Oswald coming to the theater before the
fairly quick arrest. There is no one who identified Oswald as coming
in the theater at that time and sitting down. All the evidence shows
he was there very earlier and engaged in lots of activities, and have
been time-wise corroborated by two, Jack Davis, and Butch Burroughs as
being a good 20-30 minutes before the arrest in the main part of the
theater.
Also, whoever Tippit confronted was clearly at the end of E. Tenth
which is not on the direct way to Ruby's, and can't be the one who
left the roominghouse as it another 3-5 minutes from the Tippit
shooting scene. Tippit most likely honked in front of Oswald's
roominghouse and took him to the theater. Tippit, Ruby, and Oswald
were known to eat breakfast as regulars together at a restaurant in
Oakcliff.
> http://www.jfkhistory.com/pix/mapruby.gif
>
> If that was the case, then the others knew the general path that Oswald
> would take, to get there. It would have been easy for Tippit to intercept
> him.
>
Tippit dropped Oswald at the theater and would have been directly able
to go to the Top Ten Record Store. He obviously was stressed and was
looking to call someone. Assuming he did his 'job' to that point (and
yes being a conspirator in the JFK demise) needed to know what his
next assignment was. He had to know of the methodology of the patsy
they were creating with the fake or double Oswald, and knew he had to
be accounted for. He must have known as he went to the area where he
was. He was pulling cars over and checking them, so Tippit was
looking frantically. He finally sees 'set-up' Oswald and confronts.
'Set up' Oswald is assigned to double cross Tippit and kill him and
leave a trail of evidence where TSBD Oswald is so he can be double
crossed as well. TSBD Oswald is waiting their for his contact as he
goes from seat to seat...as that is the meeting place hoping to find
someone to take him from there. At his arrest, he says it's all over
now..and in custody..."they're going to know who I am". He knows he
has been double crossed, and probably all the more so when he finds
out his ride to the TSBD has been murdered.
> It has never made sense that Tippit would have randomly chosen to stop
> Oswald, who was far from the scene of the assassination and did not match
> the description that Brennon gave to the police.
>
Tippit was in a prime spot after the shooting to see Oswald coming to
the roominghouse as he was at a spot to see cars coming from Dealey to
Oakcliff at the GLOCO station.
> And after he was stopped, why couldn't Oswald have cooly talked his way
> out of the situation, as he did at the depository? After all, Tippit had
> absolutely no reason to suspect him at that point.
>
Exact provocations and what Tippit might have done with this one on
assignment can be unsure for sure, but that person Tippit stopped
wanted Tippit dead, not just out of his hair.
> The only logical answer is that Tippit knew exactly who he was looking for
> and knew the path he would be traveling. And he had a tragically big
> mouth, letting Oswald know what his plans for him were.
>
> There is no doubt that Ruby knew Tippit. He simply told him where to look
> for Oswald and expected the cop to do the job that he would ultimately get
> stuck with.
>
It's what's never investigated but can be established. Oswald,
Tippit, and Ruby were players and knew quite a bit about the
assassination. Ruby said so eventually. Oswald said he was a
"patsy". He wouldn't have said that if he knew he wasn't double
crossed. Tippit never had a chance to tell his story. Actually only
Ruby did, and eventually I believe he was going to get his chance and
became the third patsy.
CJ
> Robert Harris
Bud
> In article
> <reharris1-8FB349.00594530062...@70-3-168-216.pools.spcsdns.net>,
> Robert Harris <reharr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > It makes no sense to imagine Oswald being an innocent patsy. Without
> > benefit of hindsight, the conspirators would expect him to go outside with
> > the other TSBD employees or be in a position where he was seen by other
> > employees. In either case, he would have had a solid alibi.
>
> > But perhaps, he was another kind of patsy.
>
> > If Oswald took part in the attack, then doesn't it make sense that he
> > would be told to meet up later with his co-conspirators? And in fact, at
> > the time that he was approached by officer Tippit, he was on a direct
> > course to Jack Ruby's apartment, as this map clearly demonstrates.
>
> >http://www.jfkhistory.com/pix/mapruby.gif
>
> > If that was the case, then the others knew the general path that Oswald
> > would take, to get there. It would have been easy for Tippit to intercept
> > him.
>
> > It has never made sense that Tippit would have randomly chosen to stop
> > Oswald, who was far from the scene of the assassination and did not match
> > the description that Brennon gave to the police.
>
> > And after he was stopped, why couldn't Oswald have cooly talked his way
> > out of the situation, as he did at the depository? After all, Tippit had
> > absolutely no reason to suspect him at that point.
>
> Minor correction. Of course, Oswald didn't talk when he was spotted at the
> depository, but he certainly remained calm and cool, even after Baker had
> drawn his gun.
Yah, not even a "Whats this all about?" from Oswald. Of course he
might have made the connection between a cop in the TSBD and the
murder he had just committed.
BTW, Baker didn`t draw his gun on Oswald, it was already out.
> It makes no sense that Tippit could have provoked him to draw his weapon
> unless Tippit said something that was very provocative.
Tippit was an obstacle to Oswald`s next goal of taking another crack
at Walker.
> Robert Harris
Robert
> It makes no sense to imagine Oswald being an innocent patsy. Without
> benefit of hindsight, the conspirators would expect him to go outside with
> the other TSBD employees or be in a position where he was seen by other
> employees. In either case, he would have had a solid alibi.
>
> But perhaps, he was another kind of patsy.
>
> If Oswald took part in the attack, then doesn't it make sense that he
> would be told to meet up later with his co-conspirators?
LHO could simply have been doing what he was told to do which was to
stay by a phone. He could have believed based on what he was told
that a "fake" assassination attempt was going to to take place so they
could blame Castro for it and invade Cuba. Who knows, and really it
does NOT matter as he was accused of being the shooter of JFK, JBC and
JDT and there is NO evidence that shows this to be the case upon cross-
examination.
> And in fact, at
> the time that he was approached by officer Tippit, he was on a direct
> course to Jack Ruby's apartment, as this map clearly demonstrates.
It was also a neighborhood JDT was in so much many thought he lived
there too!
> http://www.jfkhistory.com/pix/mapruby.gif
>
> If that was the case, then the others knew the general path that Oswald
> would take, to get there. It would have been easy for Tippit to intercept
> him.
Some have posited that it was JDT's task to kill LHO "in-flight" IF
Ruby blew the chance at the TSBD. Maybe, but we won't ever know for
sure.
> It has never made sense that Tippit would have randomly chosen to stop
> Oswald, who was far from the scene of the assassination and did not match
> the description that Brennon gave to the police.
It also makes no sense that the DPD doctored their own transcripts to
show JDT was ordered there in the first place when he was not. It is
called CYA.
> And after he was stopped, why couldn't Oswald have cooly talked his way
> out of the situation, as he did at the depository? After all, Tippit had
> absolutely no reason to suspect him at that point.
YOU are assuming LHO was even there, and this is a bad thing to do
with the eyewitness testimony we have. Furthermore, the WC and no
subsequent government body has ever shown us HOW LHO managed this feat
IF he did. They gave a claim of him doing things that got him there
but when folks were asked along the routes IF they saw him they could
NOT find one person who said yes, we saw him. These houses were
filled with stay-at-home moms and retired folks too so it wasn't like
he was walking through a deserted area.
It is dangerous to agree with a claim when there is NO evidence that
will support it upon cross-examination.
> The only logical answer is that Tippit knew exactly who he was looking for
> and knew the path he would be traveling. And he had a tragically big
> mouth, letting Oswald know what his plans for him were.
Sorry, there is another logical answer as well. JDT was killed to do
two things IMO, keep his mouth shut and to make LHO look even guiltier
(a third could be for failure to do what he was supposed to do - kill
LHO). Maybe it was the first and the second was a benefit, who
knows. IF I was a betting man I would say it was Roscoe White who was
riding with JDT looking for LHO and when they couldn't find him they
got into a heated disagreement and White popped him. OR White was
told to do this from the beginning, we will never know for sure at
this point. The main point is JDT was caught with his pistol in his
holster so IT HAD TO BE SOMEONE HE TRUSTED WHO KILLED HIM! It is like
when the police find NO forced entry into a house or apartment where a
crime was committed, they always say the person knew the attacker/
raper/killer/burgular, etc... because they either were let in or had a
key or some other kind of access (based on the fact NO windows were
wide open of course).
> There is no doubt that Ruby knew Tippit. He simply told him where to look
> for Oswald and expected the cop to do the job that he would ultimately get
> stuck with.
There is NO evidence that will stand up to scrutiny showing LHO was
anywhere near where the WC said he was when JDT was killed. LHO was
heading for a safe meeting place too (TT) instead of getting out of
town so we know there was someone or some group guiding him in these
times.
WBurg...@aol.com
> In article
> <reharris1-8FB349.00594530062...@70-3-168-216.pools.spcsdns.net>,
>
> - Show quoted text -
There is no doubt Oswald was told something by someone and, correct me
if I'm wrong, but wasn't he hanging around the payphone for a while,
one assumes "awaiting instructions?" And isn't a fact that agents
diring this time period would meet in afternoon movie
theaters...regularly uncrowded...to have clandestine meetings ("If
anything happens go to the theater.") According to Summers, Fritz said
he had never seen anyone so cool under the circumstances as Lee
Oswald, as if he had been professionally trained to resist
interrogation. Remember, this young man was 24 years old. Think about
that. And his phraseology seems to be almost like code:.... I'm a
Marxist-Leninist (message to handlers, my cover has not been blown),
"I'm a patsy".... (I have been set up) and I ask someone to come
forward for me....(I need help)... all this fits with a naive yet
sophisticated kid who got involved in some undercover work of some
kind and was trying to get help without blowing his cover.
And remember when Hosty asked him about Mexico City, Oswald's
response.... "How'd you know about that?".... may have been the first
time he dropped his "mask." Things to consider.
Burgundy
aaronhi...@yahoo.com
> would be told to meet up later with his co-conspirators? And in fact, at
> the time that he was approached by officer Tippit, he was on a direct
> course to Jack Ruby's apartment, as this map clearly demonstrates.
>
> http://www.jfkhistory.com/pix/mapruby.gif
But Ruby was at Parkland Hospital. I believe Seth Kantor, not the WC.
> If that was the case, then the others knew the general path that Oswald
> would take, to get there. It would have been easy for Tippit to intercept
> him.
The "plot" was to shoot at JFK, frame LHO, and thus goad JFK into
invading Cuba. Everyone was in on it (Ruby, DPD, etc.) Except that
the plotters really planned to kill JFK. And leave LHO holding the
bag.
> It has never made sense that Tippit would have randomly chosen to stop
> Oswald, who was far from the scene of the assassination and did not match
> the description that Brennon gave to the police.
The number of witnesses who say that Tippit's killer didn't look like
LHO, and the number of witnesses who saw more than one person, make me
wonder if LHO was there at all.
> There is no doubt that Ruby knew Tippit. He simply told him where to look
> for Oswald and expected the cop to do the job that he would ultimately get
> stuck with.
Ruby knew most of the Cops in Dallas.
Aaron Hirshberg
Robert Harris
<reharris1-5D866...@70-3-168-216.pools.spcsdns.net>,
Robert Harris <reha...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> In article
> <f64fb467-3bd5-4526...@a7g2000yqk.googlegroups.com>,
> Robert <robc...@netscape.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jun 30, 8:10�pm, Robert Harris <reharr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > It makes no sense to imagine Oswald being an innocent patsy. Without
> > > benefit of hindsight, the conspirators would expect him to go outside with
> > > the other TSBD employees or be in a position where he was seen by other
> > > employees. In either case, he would have had a solid alibi.
> >
> > You are being naive here. He would have been told what to do by the
> > groups controlling him (the intelligence agencies) and my guess was to
> > stay near a phone.
>
> Ok, so he stands by a phone.
>
> How do you prevent other employees from seeing him?
>
> Look, Oswald was not just an anti-communist. He was a crazy, radical
> right wing communist
Er... anti-communist.
RH
Bud
> In article
> <46a61e58-1653-4274-b6f8-9d92ad377...@n11g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
>
> Bud <sirsl...@fast.net> wrote:
> > On Jun 30, 11:10 pm, Robert Harris <reharr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > It makes no sense to imagine Oswald being an innocent patsy.
>
> > CTers talk about sense like dogs play the piano. Clumsily with little
> > skill.
>
> Nothing personal, but that has to be the stupidest insult I have ever
> heard.
It wasn`t meant to be an insult, it was an allegory, or a
palindrome, or whatever.
> > > Without
> > > benefit of hindsight, the conspirators would expect him to go outside with
> > > the other TSBD employees or be in a position where he was seen by other
> > > employees. In either case, he would have had a solid alibi.
>
> > > But perhaps, he was another kind of patsy.
>
> > The kind that kills people.
>
> > > If Oswald took part in the attack, then doesn't it make sense that he
> > > would be told to meet up later with his co-conspirators?
>
> > No. It makes sense that he would be expected to be caught at the
> > scene of the
>
> That is absolutely correct.
>
> Without benefit of hindsight, it would seem impossible that a shooter on
> the sixth floor, firing an unsuppressed rifle would have failed to
> attract a small army of cops, deputies and SS guys charging up the
> stairs with guns blazing.
> How could they have known that Oswald would be allowed plenty of time to
> go downstairs and would only have to confront a solitary officer who all
> but ignored him?
>
> He should have been killed in the depository, but he was not.
>
> So Ruby & co had to resort to plan B and eventually, C.
>
> Your theory makes no sense, Bud. Everything depends on ridiculously
> unlikely coincidences.
How can you argue that something is too unlikely after it occurred?
> Do you really think that Oswald was just coincidentally on a
> shortest-possible-course to Ruby's apartment?
You may as well be saying that Ruby rented a place knowing it would
one day lie in Oswald`s path.
> Or that Tippit just coincidentally stopped the one person out of
> thousands in Oak Cliff, that happened to be Oswald?
<snicker> Yah, it`s a coincidence that a policeman would stop a
murder suspect. Better to think that he was ordered to do so by an
unknown, unseen mega-conspiracy. Retard.
> And you would have Oswald 5 miles from the crime scene, incapable of
> chatting with Tippit and appearing to be an innocent pedestrian, in
> spite of the fact that every other cop who confronted him, said he was
> totally cool and never became flustered.
What "every other cop"? One cop, adrenalin flowing, looking to get
to the roof of the TSBD stopped him for a few seconds. Bledsoe, who
saw him on the bus shortly after this said Oswald looked "wild". In
any case, you are trying to build a case for the extraordinary using
nothing. We don`t know what made Oswald catch Tippit`s eye, Oswald
killed him before he could provide this information. Certainly it is
more reasonable to believe that this was just a case of a cop doing
his job until the remarkable and extraordinary support your
speculations require surface. You slander a good man, because you are
a retard spinning in ever decreasing circles towards the retarded
things you want to believe.
> > > And in fact, at
> > > the time that he was approached by officer Tippit, he was on a direct
> > > course to Jack Ruby's apartment, as this map clearly demonstrates.
>
> > >http://www.jfkhistory.com/pix/mapruby.gif
>
> > > If that was the case, then the others knew the general path that Oswald
> > > would take, to get there. It would have been easy for Tippit to intercept
> > > him.
>
> > Yah, good plan, let him run free, and just assume you will be able
> > to get control of him later.
>
> Bud, you seem to have lost all semblance of reason here. Why would you
> think that the conspirators would want Oswald to escape from the
> depository??
As powerful as you represent this conspiracy to be, it seems a
simple matter to ensure he did not. If the have the power over the
Dallas Police department to have Tippit moved out to Oak Cliff to
perform a murder, surely they could have a few uniforms handy to cover
the exits of the TSBD.
> > > It has never made sense that Tippit would have randomly chosen to stop
> > > Oswald, who was far from the scene of the assassination and did not match
> > > the description that Brennon gave to the police.
>
> > Perhaps cops have a better understanding of the nature of
> > descriptions than kooks.
>
> Bud, you seem to be a one-trick-pony. When you are cornered, you always
> resort to name calling and personal insults.
How am I cornered? You are the one making absolute statements
grounded in total ignorance. Do you have the slightest idea how well
initial descriptions match the actual perpetrator when they are
caught?
> That's a poor substitute for critical thinking.
That you are a retard *IS* my point. I`m using the things you bring
up in support of *THAT* idea.
> It is YOUR theory that makes no sense, Bud. You can't explain why Oswald
> was on a direct path to Ruby's apartment or why Tippit randomly selected
> Oswald out of thousands of others who were out and about that day, far
> from the crime scene.
Again, a kook with no real support for his crazy ideas thinks it is
incumbent on me to unprove his crazy ideas. Go forth and find support
for your ideas, find who moved Tippit to Oak Cliff to perform
nefarious deeds, show someone telling Tippit to perform this task,
SOMETHING OTHER THAN RETARD IMAGINATION. You can`t today, you never
will, so why go down these dead-end paths?
> And you cannot explain why Oswald was incapable of avoiding a shootout,
> which had to have been the very last thing he wanted.
Tippit exited his patrol car before Oswald shot him. This indicates
that Oswald failed to talk his way out of further scrutiny.
> My explanation answers ALL relevant questions, Bud.
That isn`t the criteria, retard. Kooks will always provide answers
they find satisfactory to themselves.
>Yours fails over and
> over again.
Mine is the only reasonable explanation on the table. It was 40-plus
years ago, and it will be a hundred years from now.
David Von Pein
>>> "Harris demonstrates why these hobbyists are really not up to the task of looking into this case. Simple things elude them, they make false constructs, and their thinking leaves a lot to be desired.Totally unsuited for figuring anything out. These folks criticize the WC, like they should have returned "We figure Oswald was going to Ruby`s apartment when Tippit, who knew Oswald would be heading there (somehow, we aren`t interested in really supporting these things) was tapped to intercept him." .... Yah, to paraphrase Sherlock Holmes, "When you remove all the reasonable explanations, only the retarded ones retards favor remain"." <<<
~Big LOL~
Thanks, Bud. You're the man.
I wish you'd post more often. I always end up on the floor when you
do. Fabulous stuff.
Switching gears.....
BTW, I have a new version of my "Reclaiming History" book review
available online now -- at Duncan MacRae's and Robin Unger's forum. (I
think Robin runs part of it too, but I'm not sure about that.)
I had to make a switch, because yesterday the forum I was using for my
mega RH review [www.HomeTheaterForum.com/htf/3200858-post.html]
changed its platform and design entirely (totally ruining the site,
IMO), and my review was wrecked beyond repair.
So my new version is here now (in 6 parts this time):
www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,776.msg9299.html#msg9299
Robert Harris
Myers "theory" that Oswald did an about-face as Tippit approached him is
just stupid and even Bugliosi disagrees with it.
Several years ago I went through an extensive debate with Myers and
Reitzes on Myers theory that Oswald was walking in the opposite direction
than the WC claimed when he was stopped. Of course, he needs that last
minute turnaround to support his theory.
He kept claiming that he had witness support for his argument but over and
over again, refused to post citations. Finally, he disappeared from the
group and left poor Reitzes to post his citations for him, but almost
every one of them said the guy they saw, was NOT Oswald.
Oswald was not stupid and he changed clothes at his rooming house. He knew
that no cops would be able to identify him on the street, so why would he
panic and do something that would practically beg Tippit to stop him?
That just didn't happen and not a single witness said that Oswald turned
around.
Robert Harris
In article
<e87f4b88-6b02-48f1...@t13g2000yqt.googlegroups.com>,
yeuhd <Needle...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "Ah?no."
> "Okay, could you wait right there?"
> Tippit gets out of his car?
tomnln
Name the exact Officer who took that description from the witness?
"yeuhd" <Needle...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:e87f4b88-6b02-48f1...@t13g2000yqt.googlegroups.com...
Robert Harris
<dfc79ce7-37a3-4c4d...@i6g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>,
"aaronhi...@yahoo.com" <aaronhi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > If Oswald took part in the attack, then doesn't it make sense that he
> > would be told to meet up later with his co-conspirators? And in fact, at
> > the time that he was approached by officer Tippit, he was on a direct
> > course to Jack Ruby's apartment, as this map clearly demonstrates.
> >
> > http://www.jfkhistory.com/pix/mapruby.gif
>
> But Ruby was at Parkland Hospital. I believe Seth Kantor, not the WC.
Yes, but that doesn't matter. Ruby wouldn't have to be home for him to
have his people meet up there.
And he probably didn't expect Oswald to make it anyway.
>
> > If that was the case, then the others knew the general path that Oswald
> > would take, to get there. It would have been easy for Tippit to intercept
> > him.
>
> The "plot" was to shoot at JFK, frame LHO, and thus goad JFK into
> invading Cuba. Everyone was in on it (Ruby, DPD, etc.) Except that
> the plotters really planned to kill JFK. And leave LHO holding the
> bag.
Framing an unwitting and innocent Oswald would be infinitely more
difficult than recruiting him.
Watch my two Youtube vids on Oswald, part 1 and 2 and see if you don't
agree that he was the crazy, fanatical anti-communist that I think he
was.
The simple fact that he tried to kill himself when his assignment in
Moscow fell through, should be enough to make that clear.
>
> > It has never made sense that Tippit would have randomly chosen to stop
> > Oswald, who was far from the scene of the assassination and did not match
> > the description that Brennon gave to the police.
>
> The number of witnesses who say that Tippit's killer didn't look like
> LHO, and the number of witnesses who saw more than one person, make me
> wonder if LHO was there at all.
Yes, I know there is controversy about that. But the notion that Oswald
just coincidentally came upon the scene of a cop getting murdered, seems
like quite a stretch.
It seems to me that it would have been easy for witnesses who weren't
paying particular attention prior to the shooting, to mistake which man
actually approached the car.
Robert Harris
yeuhd
> All the evidence shows
> he was there very earlier and engaged in lots of activities, and have
> been time-wise corroborated by two, Jack Davis, and Butch Burroughs as
> being a good 20-30 minutes before the arrest in the main part of the
> theater.
"All the evidence"? Both Johnny C. Brewer and Julia Postal saw Oswald in
front of the Texas Theater, and Brewer saw him enter it. Brewer said he
had first seen Oswald outside his shoe store about 1:30 p.m., where Oswald
acted suspiciously as a police car went by. Brewer followed him to the
nearby Texas Theater and saw him enter without buying a ticket. Brewer
went into the theater and asked Butch Burroughs at the concession stand if
he had seen the man come in. Burroughs said he had been busy and had not
seen him. After they checked to see if they exit doors were secure, Brewer
had Postal call the police. The police radio call about a suspect at the
Texas Theater went out at 1:45 p.m. Brewer identified Oswald for the
police when they arrived.
Affidavit of Johnny C. Brewer:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/brewer1.htm
WC testimony of Johnny C. Brewer:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/brewer_j.htm
WC testimony of Julia Postal:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/postal.htm
Warren "Butch" Burroughs testified to the Warren Commission in April 1964,
and said nothing about seeing Oswald enter the theater, or that he
recognized Oswald as he was brought out under arrest. Years later he
"remembered" seeing Oswald in the theater earlier. Jack Davis came forth
years after the assassination, and he has not offered any evidence beyond
his own claim that he was at the Texas Theater.
Who are the better set of witnesses?
yeuhd
> There is NO evidence that will stand up to scrutiny showing LHO was
> anywhere near where the WC said he was when JDT was killed.
Police lineup identification by eyewitness Helen Markham, who saw
Oswald shoot Tippit. Police lineup identification by eyewitness
Virginia Davis, who saw Oswald cut across her front yard as he held a
gun open shortly after she heard the shots. Police lineup
identification by eyewitnesses Ted Callaway and Sam Guinyard, who
heard the shots from a block away and saw Oswald coming south on
Patton with a gun in his hand.
Those four eyewitnesses form an unbroken chain of Oswald shooting
Tippit on 10th Street and fleeing down Patton to Jefferson with a gun
in his hand.
None of those four had seen any photograph of Oswald before they made
their lineup identifications on Nov. 22 or early morning of the 23.
All of them were certain of their identification of Oswald without
hesitation.
Then there is the physical evidence. All bullet cartridges found at
the scene had been fired from the gun found on Oswald at his arrest.
yeuhd
> There is no doubt Oswald was told something by someone and, correct me
> if I'm wrong, but wasn't he hanging around the payphone for a while,
> one assumes "awaiting instructions?"
No.
> And isn't a fact that agents
> diring this time period would meet in afternoon movie
> theaters...regularly uncrowded...to have clandestine meetings ("If
> anything happens go to the theater.")
Only in crime novels.
Robert Harris
<abff2961-f622-4a34...@l31g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
Bud <sirs...@fast.net> wrote:
> On Jul 1, 12:05 pm, Robert Harris <reharr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > In article
> > <46a61e58-1653-4274-b6f8-9d92ad377...@n11g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
> >
> > Bud <sirsl...@fast.net> wrote:
> > > On Jun 30, 11:10 pm, Robert Harris <reharr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > It makes no sense to imagine Oswald being an innocent patsy.
> >
> > > CTers talk about sense like dogs play the piano. Clumsily with little
> > > skill.
> >
> > Nothing personal, but that has to be the stupidest insult I have ever
> > heard.
>
> It wasn`t meant to be an insult, it was an allegory, or a
> palindrome, or whatever.
Well, it was certainly not a palindrome, since it does not read the
same, backward and forward.
It might pass as allegorical I suppose, although I am not sure how one
talks about sense, clumsily - unless he suffers from a speech
impediment?
In any case, I think it is fair to say that the statement was incredibly
stupid.
Where btw, have you seen dogs playing the piano with even a "little"
skill?
Robert Harris
Robert
>
> Robert <robcap...@netscape.com> wrote:
> > On Jun 30, 8:10 pm, Robert Harris <reharr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > It makes no sense to imagine Oswald being an innocent patsy. Without
> > > benefit of hindsight, the conspirators would expect him to go outside with
> > > the other TSBD employees or be in a position where he was seen by other
> > > employees. In either case, he would have had a solid alibi.
>
> > You are being naive here. He would have been told what to do by the
> > groups controlling him (the intelligence agencies) and my guess was to
> > stay near a phone.
>
> Ok, so he stands by a phone.
>
> How do you prevent other employees from seeing him?
Good question, but it DOES NOT really matter when you know you will be
CONTROLLING the entire investigation, now does it? Of course others
saw him, and that is why we know he was NOT where the WC said he was
at the time of the shooting.
I agree with Vincent Salandria's take, this was a transparent coup
d'etat as they WANTED us to know they did it! This causes major fear
in all the right places! As Salandria said, they certainly could have
done better than this IF they wanted to hide the coup. This case
falls apart on first glance. That is why LBJ was there even though it
was against policy to have them both at the same place at the same
time. As Fletcher Prouty said, "LBJ heard those guns, and he never
forot them". This is so important to remember when we see all the
things LBJ did that countered JFK's plans.
> Look, Oswald was not just an anti-communist. He was a crazy, radical
> right wing communist who was so fanatical that he tried to kill himself
> when his assignment in Russia fell through.
LHO was not a communist, and he was not an anti-communist as there is
no credible evidence for either. He was a low level asset/agent
playing a role.
John Newman, and others recently, have shown LHO did this to try and
gain trust with the Soviets as all of his other attempts had NOT
convinced them, and rightly so, he was NO real defector.
> He was obsessed with Herbert Philbrick, a famous FBI informant and
> spokesman for Hoover's war on communism, since he was 13 years old.
I have read this, as well as his obsession for "I Led Three Lives",
and this made him soooo easy to manipulate. His ties to Marcello
didn't hurt either.
> And
> he was very tight with David Ferrie, an equally crazy right-wing
> nutcase, who worked for Carlos Marcello, who not only said he was going
> to kill JFK but later admitted that he ordered the hit.
I wouldn't say he was "tight" with Ferrie since Ferrie was what Ben
accuses all of us on here who dare to disagree with him - a
pedophile. He came on to LHO and LHO rebuffed him. This was the
motivation for LHO to get away from him and join the Corps at 17.
Ferrie is suspected of alerting the right people at the CIA about LHO
being used as an asset though, and this relationship began at Atsugi.
> Look at my two Youtube vids on him, part 1 and part 2.
I'll take a look.
> And Oswald single handedly, destroyed the FPCC by pretending to be one
> of their leaders.
He WAS the leader in his chapter since he was THE ONLY MEMBER! No one
of any serious pedigree ever bought this ruse of LHO's anyway.
> He tried to do the same thing to the ACLU and he and
> Ferrie checked out the CORE in Clinton, for the obvious purpose of
> seeing whether he could do the same thing to them. Every one of those
> groups was at the top of Hoover's poop list.
Maybe, but he was in Clinton for other reasons as Garrison uncovered,
he was looking into a job at a mental institute as this is what he was
told to do. As Garrison said, wouldn't this have helped the WC a lot
after the assassination?
> There was no need to set Oswald up. He would have been very disappointed
> if he wasn't offered a chance to help out in the assassination.
This is YOUR OPINION, there is NO evidence for this claim. LHO was
very PRO-JFK according to all of those who knew him. He also was a
believer in his country from what I have read so you need to provide
some evidence/proof for this claim of yours. I think he alerted the
FBI with his note to Hosty (Hosty had ties to some interesting folks
too) and that is why they destroyed it. Destroying evidence is a major
crime, but in this case NO one got punished for doing so IF it made
LHO look more guilty. The explanation he gave for what the note said
would have done this (make LHO look guilty) so it COULD NOT have said
this or they would have kept it under lock and key.
> If you really want to understand where Oswald was coming from, read
> Silvia Odio's WC testimony and see what some of the exiles who were
> hanging with him, told her.
Already have, and I understand "where he was coming from", but the
problem all people run into when they try and claim things the WC
claimed is there is NO evidence/proof that will withstand a cross-
examination. Ditto witness testimony.
> > LHO IMO.- Hide quoted text -
tomnln
witness ! ! ! !
Gordon Shanklin.
"Robert" <robc...@netscape.com> wrote in message
news:6a2d15ab-c918-47b5...@h2g2000yqg.googlegroups.com...
yeuhd
> Name the exact witness who gave that description?
>
> Name the exact Officer who took that description from the witness?
>
I've already answered that question for you several times. In any
case, that issue is irrelevant to THIS discussion. The question HERE
is why Tippit stopped Oswald. What is relevant is that that
description of the suspect — from whomever — was broadcast three times
over police radio before Tippit stopped Oswald.
yeuhd
> Myers "theory" that Oswald did an about-face as Tippit approached him is
> just stupid and even Bugliosi disagrees with it.
>
> Several years ago I went through an extensive debate with Myers and
> Reitzes on Myers theory that Oswald was walking in the opposite direction
> than the WC claimed when he was stopped. Of course, he needs that last
> minute turnaround to support his theory.
>
> He kept claiming that he had witness support for his argument but over and
> over again, refused to post citations. Finally, he disappeared from the
> group and left poor Reitzes to post his citations for him, but almost
> every one of them said the guy they saw, was NOT Oswald.
Jimmy Burt saw a man walk west on 10th. Although Burt didn’t see the
shooting, and said he could not
identify the man, he did say that after he heard the shots he saw this
same man running away from the squad car south on Patton. (HSCA Record
180-10091-10288, Transcript of taped interview of Jimmy Burt by Al
Chapman on February 7, 1968, pp. 1–3, 6, 8–9. A copy of the audio
recording of the interview is also held by the National Archives.)
Bricklayer William Lawrence Smith, after being shown photos of Oswald,
felt sure that Oswald was the man he saw walking westward by him on
10th Street a few minutes before the Tippit shooting occurred.
See: Commission Document 329, Gemberling Report, p. 83, Interview of
William Lawrence Smith by FBI Special Agent William G. Brookhart on
January 11, 1964:
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10730&relPageId=86
Could you present evidence where these two men affirmatively said that
the person each saw walking west on 10th was *not* Oswald? Because
those are the two witnesses whom Dale K. Myers cites for his
hypothesis that Oswald had been walking west on 10th.
yeuhd
> And after he was stopped, why couldn't Oswald have cooly talked his way
> out of the situation, as he did at the depository? After all, Tippit had
> absolutely no reason to suspect him at that point.
Oswald didn't exactly behave cool and calm and talk his way out of the
situation when officers approached him in the Texas Theater, did he?
He pulled out his gun and tried to shoot one of them.
And Tippit had "absolutely no reason to suspect" Oswald on 10th? To
start, how about that Oswald fit the description of the TSBD shooter
broadcast three times over the police radio?
curtjester1
Mine obviously. Postal said they had to tell Burroughs what to
believe because it didn't jive with what 'reality' was thus denying
Burroughs' thoughts of seeing him pass through (earlier). Be that as
it may, nobody saw a person come through and come in the main theater
and sit which would have been the soon to be arrested Oswald.
Nobody. Postal said he went upstairs, and so did Brewer and I believe
Burroughs in chase. He certainly didn't go by Burroughs at that late
time to get to the main part of the theater. Hence, when the police
arrived, they went up the stairs, and in testimony in No More Silence
by Sneed from DPD Courson, he confronts a man he identifies as "Lee
Harvey Oswald" on the stairs smoking a cigarette, and then gets told
to back off since a hollared, "we got our man" comes from the main
floor area. The public isn't told about the arrest record of the
suspect Oswald in the balcony which is an official police report, nor
does it speak of the detainment of that person into the adjacent alley
into a police vehicle told by the next door shop owner, Bernard Haire
over 25 years later. Haire assumed that the arrest was in the alley
all those years and not the one where Oswald was brought out in the
front of the theater.
And when the all the years passed, investigators were able to track
down Davis, and Burroughs and get a much more detailed, and concise
explanation to events that day, which dispelled the timelines
completely, and showed many more events take place which were never
part of the record. Now we know TSBD was there very early, watching
the credits of the movie before the movie started which in itself was
25 minutes before the one who sneaked in, and sat next to numerous
people, and who bought popcorn on a visit to the lobby from the a trip
from the main room seating area.
CJ
Robert
It lacked any clothing, thus, please tell us how such a basic
description that could fit thousands of men in Dallas would alert JDT
that he was looking at the killer of JFK. Also, the scene of the JDT
shooting was miles from the scene of the JFK assassination, so again,
why would he suspect the alleged killer would be way out there. Then
explain why JDT was there in the first place when he was NOT assigned
to the area.
Furthermore, IF you continue to assert it was LHO and JDT believed he
was the killer of JFK, please explain why JDT never got his pistol out
of the holster for us.
Thanks!
Bud
>
>
>
> Bud<sirsl...@fast.net> wrote:
> > On Jul 1, 12:05 pm, Robert Harris <reharr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > In article
> > > <46a61e58-1653-4274-b6f8-9d92ad377...@n11g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
>
> > > Bud<sirsl...@fast.net> wrote:
> > > > On Jun 30, 11:10 pm, Robert Harris <reharr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > > It makes no sense to imagine Oswald being an innocent patsy.
>
> > > > CTers talk about sense like dogs play the piano. Clumsily with little
> > > > skill.
>
> > > Nothing personal, but that has to be the stupidest insult I have ever
> > > heard.
>
> > It wasn`t meant to be an insult, it was an allegory, or a
> > palindrome, or whatever.
>
> Well, it was certainly not a palindrome, since it does not read the
> same, backward and forward.
>
> It might pass as allegorical I suppose, although I am not sure how one
> talks about sense, clumsily - unless he suffers from a speech
> impediment?
>
> In any case, I think it is fair to say that the statement was incredibly
> stupid.
>
> Where btw, have you seen dogs playing the piano with even a "little"
> skill?
Where have I seen conspiracy kooks making even a little sense?
The concept probably originated from a video I saw recently of a dog
hitting notes on a piano, and howling after each note (I think it was
in the ON DEMAND section under "Stupid Video") on cable.
In a related note, while surfing cable, I caught a portion of
"Woodstock" on VH1. The concert was hit by a storm, and two dirty
hippies were claiming that they saw a plane in the clouds a half-hour
before the rain started, and that it was undoubtedly fascist forces of
the government who seeded the clouds to cause the rain, in a
diabolical attempt to ruin their love-in, and clean dirty hippies. One
of the two was probably Shackleford, maybe both. Anyway, it made me
think that these paranoid conspiracy kooks could probably not be
dissuaded from their retarded conclusion no matter how much
information was brought to bear against it. If the plane was produced,
and it was the media or just a curious pilot, film of the plane,
science produced showing the impossibility of causing rain by seeding
clouds, ect, nothing could make headway against what they have already
decided had occurred.
> Robert Harris
>
>
>
> > > > > Without
> > > > > benefit of hindsight, the conspirators would expect him to go outside
> > > > > with
> > > > > the other TSBD employees or be in a position where he was seen by other
> > > > > employees. In either case, he would have had a solid alibi.
>
> > > > > But perhaps, he was another kind of patsy.
>
> > > > The kind that kills people.
>
> > > > > If Oswald took part in the attack, then doesn't it make sense that he
> > > > > would be told to meet up later with his co-conspirators?
>
> > > > No. It makes sense that he would be expected to be caught at the
> > > > scene of the
>
> > > That is absolutely correct.
>
> > > Without benefit of hindsight, it would seem impossible that a shooter on
> > > the sixth floor, firing an unsuppressed rifle would have failed to
> > > attract a small army of cops, deputies and SS guys charging up the
> > > stairs with guns blazing.
>
> > > How could they have known that Oswald would be allowed plenty of time to
> > > go downstairs and would only have to confront a solitary officer who all
> > > but ignored him?
>
> > > He should have been killed in the depository, but he was not.
>
> > > So Ruby & co had to resort to plan B and eventually, C.
>
> > > Your theory makes no sense,Bud. Everything depends on ridiculously
> > > It is YOUR theory that makes no sense,Bud. You can't explain why Oswald
> ...
>
> read more »
Sandy McCroskey
"more detailed and concise"
Do you know what "concise" means?
yeuhd
> Postal said he went upstairs, and so did Brewer and I believe
> Burroughs in chase.
Julia Postal said no such thing. How could Julia Postal know where
Oswald went inside the building if (a) she was outside in the box
office, and (b) she never saw him enter the building?
Julia Postal *speculated* that Oswald was able to get past Butch
Burroughs unseen, and end up on the main floor, by going through the
balcony:
Mr. BALL. Why didn't Warren Burroughs see him get in, get in there? Do
you have any idea?
Mrs. POSTAL. We talked about that, and the concession stand is along
here, and if he came in on the other end, which we summarized that is
what Oswald did, because the steps, immediately as you open the door
there. It has been done before with kids trying to sneak in, run right
on up in the balcony.
. . . .
Mr. BALL. He was arrested, though, down in the orchestra, the second
row from the —
Mrs. POSTAL. Third.
Mr. BALL. Third?
Mrs. POSTAL. Three rows down, five seats over.
Mr. BALL. I was trying to say the third row. How could he get from the
balcony down there?
Mrs. POSTAL. Oh, that is very easy. You can go up in the balcony and
right straight down, those steps come back down, and that would bring
you into it. He wouldn't have to go by Butch at all.
Johnny Brewer also said no such thing. How could Johnny Brewer know
where Oswald went inside the theater if Brewer remained outside the
theater as Oswald entered? Not until after Brewer had talked to Postal
about Oswald's entry did Brewer enter the theater.
Mr. BELIN. How many patrons were in the theatre at that time?
Mr. BREWER. I couldn't really tell. There weren't many, but it was
dark and we couldn't see how many people were in there. There were 15
or 20, I would say, at the most, upstairs and downstairs.
Mr. BELIN. Together, 15 or 20?
Mr. BREWER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Then you went upstairs. Did you see him upstairs?
Mr. BREWER. No; I couldn't see anything upstairs.
Mr. BELIN. Did you hear any noises there?
Mr. BREWER. When we first went down to the exit by the stage, we heard
a seat pop up, but couldn't see anybody. And we never did see him. But
we went back and upstairs and checked, and we came down and went back
to the box office and told Julia that we hadn't seen him.
. . . . .
Mr. BELIN. Then what happened?
Mr. BREWER. Well, just before they came. they turned the house lights
on, and I looked out from the curtains and saw the man.
Mr. BELIN. Where was he when you saw him?
Mr. BREWER. He was in the center section about six or seven rows, from
the back, toward the back.
What do you mean by "Burroughs in chase"?
> He certainly didn't go by Burroughs at that late
> time to get to the main part of the theater.
To the contrary, Burroughs himself speculated that Oswald got to the
main floor of the theater via the balcony stairs:
Mr. BALL. Did you see that man come in the theatre?
Mr. BURROUGHS. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL. Do you have any idea what you were doing when he came in?
Mr. BURROUGHS. Well, I was — I had a lot of stock candy to count and
put in the candy case for the coming night, and if he had came around
in front of the concession out there, I would have seen him, even
though I was bent down, I would have seen him, but otherwise I think
he sneaked up the stairs real fast.
Mr. BALL. Up to the balcony?
Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes, sir — first, I think he was up there.
Mr. BALL. At least there was a stairway there?
Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes, there was two.
Mr. BALL. Is there a stairway near the entry?
Mr. BURROUGHS. Of the door — yes. Yes, it goes straight — you come
through the door and go straight — you go upstairs to the balcony.
Dave Yandell
>
> And when the all the years passed, investigators were able to track
> down Davis, and Burroughs and get a much more detailed, and concise
> explanation to events that day, which dispelled the timelines
> completely, and showed many more events take place which were never
> part of the record. Now we know TSBD was there very early, watching
> the credits of the movie before the movie started which in itself was
> 25 minutes before the one who sneaked in, and sat next to numerous
> people, and who bought popcorn on a visit to the lobby from the a trip
> from the main room seating area.
Er, the Depository watched the credits in the theater?
???
Dave
Robert Harris
<91164d3f-755b-41ce...@i6g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>,
yeuhd <Needle...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jul 1, 11:34�pm, Robert Harris <reharr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Myers "theory" that Oswald did an about-face as Tippit approached him is
> > just stupid and even Bugliosi disagrees with it.
> >
> > Several years ago I went through an extensive debate with Myers and
> > Reitzes on Myers theory that Oswald was walking in the opposite direction
> > than the WC claimed when he was stopped. Of course, he needs that last
> > minute turnaround to support his theory.
> >
> > He kept claiming that he had witness support for his argument but over and
> > over again, refused to post citations. Finally, he disappeared from the
> > group and left poor Reitzes to post his citations for him, but almost
> > every one of them said the guy they saw, was NOT Oswald.
>
>
> Jimmy Burt saw a man walk west on 10th. Although Burt didn�t see the
> shooting, and said he could not
> identify the man, he did say that after he heard the shots he saw this
> same man running away from the squad car south on Patton.
Gosh, someone was running away after the shots went off?? Do you suppose
there were LOTS of people running away?
And even though Burt saw him both before and after the shooting, he
could not confirm that it was Oswald??
You get zero points for Burt.
> (HSCA Record
> 180-10091-10288, Transcript of taped interview of Jimmy Burt by Al
> Chapman on February 7, 1968, pp. 1�3, 6, 8�9. A copy of the audio
> recording of the interview is also held by the National Archives.)
>
> Bricklayer William Lawrence Smith, after being shown photos of Oswald,
> felt sure that Oswald was the man he saw walking westward by him on
> 10th Street a few minutes before the Tippit shooting occurred.
Funny that he had to be shown pictures, eh? Do you suppose he hadn't
seen Oswald a hundred times on television and in the papers?
And are you aware that Smith also said he saw this guy "a few minutes
after 1:00 pm"? And that Oswald's landlady saw the real Oswald, standing
at the bustop about a mile from the murder scene at 1:04PM?
There's just no way the guy Smith saw was Oswald.
>
> See: Commission Document 329, Gemberling Report, p. 83, Interview of
> William Lawrence Smith by FBI Special Agent William G. Brookhart on
> January 11, 1964:
> http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10730&relPag
> eId=86
>
> Could you present evidence where these two men affirmatively said that
> the person each saw walking west on 10th was *not* Oswald? Because
> those are the two witnesses whom Dale K. Myers cites for his
> hypothesis that Oswald had been walking west on 10th.
Those witnesses are worthless. Burt saw an unidentified guy before the
shooting and saw him running away after the shooting, which certainly
proves that the man had good sense, but not that he was Oswald. BTW, can
you cite Burt claiming that he saw a gun in this man's hand??
Whoever Smith saw, just after 1PM could not have been Oswald either.
You LNers make careers out of telling us how terrible witnesses are. Why
would you try to make your case on one witness who never said he saw
Oswald and another who thought he saw Oswald at an impossible time and
place?
Any more witnesses?
Robert Harris
Chuck Schuyler
>
> Where btw, have you seen dogs playing the piano with even a "little"
> skill?
>
> Robert Harris
Why, Bob, I'm surprised at you.
The Zapruder film. Frame 285. Look real close.
yeuhd
> > Jimmy Burt saw a man walk west on 10th. Although Burt didn¹t see the
> > shooting, and said he could not
> > identify the man, he did say that after he heard the shots he saw this
> > same man running away from the squad car south on Patton.
>
> Gosh, someone was running away after the shots went off?? Do you suppose
> there were LOTS of people running away?
No, there was only one person whom eyewitnesses described as running
away from the squad car and going south on Patton right after the
shots were fired. Just one. You know his name.
> > Bricklayer William Lawrence Smith, after being shown photos of Oswald,
> > felt sure that Oswald was the man he saw walking westward by him on
> > 10th Street a few minutes before the Tippit shooting occurred.
>
> Funny that he had to be shown pictures, eh? Do you suppose he hadn't
> seen Oswald a hundred times on television and in the papers?
Please quote where the FBI report said Smith "had to be shown"
pictures.
> And are you aware that Smith also said he saw this guy "a few minutes
> after 1:00 pm"?
Please quote from the FBI report where Smith said he saw Oswald "a few
minutes after 1:00 p.m." In fact, the report says, "[Smith] said that
he left the job and went to lunch, exact time unrecalled, and notice a
man walking west on 10th Street."
> And that Oswald's landlady saw the real Oswald, standing
> at the bustop about a mile from the murder scene at 1:04PM?
You are confusing Oswald's landlady, Gladys Johnson, with her
housekeeper, Earlene Roberts. Mrs. Roberts at no time said she looked
at a watch or a clock to note when Oswald came in or left. In fact,
she testified that when Oswald came in she was trying to adjust a
television set to watch the news of the assassination. When asked the
approximate time Oswald came in, she answered, "it must have been
AROUND 1 o'clock, or MAYBE a little after", but then concluded, "what
time I wouldn't want to say."
Those who want to place Oswald away from the Tippit shooting site
always seem to forget her words "around" and "maybe" and most
importantly, her nullifying conclusion, "what time I wouldn't want to
say."
curtjester1
>
> - Show quoted text -
Do you know *ANYTHING* about the JFK case?
CJ
curtjester1
TSBD Oswald. Didn't edit there. I try to distinguish between the
TSBD Oswald and Lee Oswald. Lee Oswald seen by witnesses to the
Tippit killing 3 to 4 minutes east of the killing site prior. Where
that murderer was seen was only about 2 blocks from Ruby's place, and
the barber down there was quite adamant that it was Oswald that passed
his shop. There is no way that a TSBD Oswald could have left the
roominghouse and walked to the Tippit murder scene in time. I walked
it at a good clip and it took me 13.5 minutes. If that Oswald were to
continue and go to where he was sighted, the 'round trip' from the
Tippit murder scene would have been another 8 minutes. TSBD Oswald
couldn't have committed the Tippit murder.
CJ
curtjester1
> On Jul 2, 4:06 pm, curtjester1 <curtjest...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Postal said he went upstairs, and so did Brewer and I believe
> > Burroughs in chase.
>
> Julia Postal said no such thing. How could Julia Postal know where
> Oswald went inside the building if (a) she was outside in the box
> office, and (b) she never saw him enter the building?
>
she said he walked past her, then she said later he didn't. Then she
said she saw him go him as he was meeting the manager Callahan on the
way out, then she said she didn't see him go in. She said in her
testimony that Burroughs saw him go in, then she 'kidded' him, and
then he said well at least I saw him go out. Obviously something was
awry since she radioed the police stating that he was in the balcony
and directed them as such.
When Postal was interviewed prior to the WC testimony it was quite
different as you can see from the Probe 1998 Jan-Feb article:
The Texas Theater
Researcher Jones Harris interviewed Julia Postal in 1963. When Harris
asked Julia Postal if she had sold a ticket to "Oswald" (the man
arrested), she burst into tears and left the room. A short time later
Harris again asked Postal if she sold a ticket to "Oswald" and got the
same response. From Postal's refusal to answer this question and her
reaction to same, Harris believes that Postal did sell "Oswald" a
theater ticket. On February 29, 1964 Postal told FBI Agent Arthur
Carter "she was unable to recall whether or not he bought a
ticket." (A few months later, when the Warren Report was issued,
Postal's memory had improved. She was now certain the man did not buy
a ticket. See page 178 of the report.)
Butch Burroughs, an employee of the Texas Theater, heard someone enter
the theater shortly after 1:00 PM and go to the balcony. Harvey Oswald
had apparently entered the theater and gone to the balcony without
being seen by Burroughs. About 1:15 PM Harvey came down from the
balcony and bought popcorn from Burroughs. Burroughs watched him walk
down the aisle and take a seat on the main floor. He sat next to Jack
Davis during the opening credits of the first movie, several minutes
before 1:20 PM. Harvey then moved across the aisle and sat next to
another man. A few minutes later Davis noticed he moved again and sat
next to a pregnant woman. Just before the police arrived, the pregnant
woman went to the balcony and was never seen again. In addition to
Harvey there were seven people watching the movie on the main level
(six after the pregnant woman left). Within 10 minutes, he had sat
next to half of them.
End of article.
It should be noted too that Brewer would have been too far behind to
see anyone ducking in, and there was no brown shirt description by him
until two weeks after the assassination. IOW, there was lots of times
to get a 'palitable' story down before the WC testimony time came.
It's obvious with the arrest of the man in the balcony (which
described the Tippit murder suspect much better); and the revelations
of Davis and an 'honest' Burroughs, and the concise (for Sandy)
testimony of Courson dealing with the Oswald on the stairway leading
into the balcony, and the subsequent dealing of him by Bernard Haire,
there is much more to the patsying of Oswald, than the 'canned' public
given story indicated.
CJ
yeuhd
> There is no way that a TSBD Oswald could have left the
> roominghouse and walked to the Tippit murder scene in time. I walked
> it at a good clip and it took me 13.5 minutes.
11 minutes 10 seconds, done on camera:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15fRNaFQczc
Domingo Benavides is first heard trying to use the police radio at
1:16 p.m., and he said he had waited in his truck "a few minutes"
after the shooting to make sure the shooter was gone; let's say 2 to 3
minutes. Allow him another minute to approach Tippit's body before
trying to use the radio. Which means the shooting would have occurred
about 1:12 to 1:14 p.m.
clarkw...@charter.net
> It makes no sense to imagine Oswald being an innocent patsy. Without
> benefit of hindsight, the conspirators would expect him to go outside with
> the other TSBD employees or be in a position where he was seen by other
> employees. In either case, he would have had a solid alibi.
Obviously, Lee is not an innocent patsy. It certainly has taken a lot
of years for you to come to this point of view. No insult intended
because you at least reached it.
>
> But perhaps, he was another kind of patsy.
>
> If Oswald took part in the attack, then doesn't it make sense that he
> would be told to meet up later with his co-conspirators?
To do what? Celebrate?
Lee didn't drink.
>And in fact, at
> the time that he was approached by officer Tippit, he was on a direct
> course to Jack Ruby's apartment, as this map clearly demonstrates.
>
> http://www.jfkhistory.com/pix/mapruby.gif
All Lee's escape route shows is that he was headed south. There is no
evidence he knew Jack Ruby.
>
> If that was the case, then the others knew the general path that Oswald
> would take, to get there. It would have been easy for Tippit to intercept
> him.
>
> It has never made sense that Tippit would have randomly chosen to stop
> Oswald, who was far from the scene of the assassination and did not match
> the description that Brennon gave to the police.
No. He did not.
Some officers act on intuition though.
>
> And after he was stopped, why couldn't Oswald have cooly talked his way
> out of the situation, as he did at the depository? After all, Tippit had
> absolutely no reason to suspect him at that point.
Tippit had a gazillion times less than John McAdams.
>
> The only logical answer is that Tippit knew exactly who he was looking for
> and knew the path he would be traveling. And he had a tragically big
> mouth, letting Oswald know what his plans for him were.
Or the reverse - Lee imagined what Tippit's plans for him were and
acted.
>
> There is no doubt that Ruby knew Tippit. He simply told him where to look
> for Oswald and expected the cop to do the job that he would ultimately get
> stuck with.
I would give this a 50-50 probability. But any juror, given a 50-50
chance of probability, would have to vote "innocent".
I developed how Ruby and Tippit could have arranged for Tippit to kill
Oswald but not that they did.
Just a thought.
::Clark::
>
> Robert Harris
clarkw...@charter.net
>
> It makes no sense that Tippit could have provoked him to draw his weapon
> unless Tippit said something that was very provocative.
>
> Robert Harris- Hide quoted text -
>
He opened his car door and got out.
Whatever Lee was selling, Tippit wasn't buying.
But Tippit's behavior, outside a hunch, fails to meet an arrest
criteria. He has no reason to exit the car and pursue Oswald.
If he exited the car to kill Oswald, then he was careless.
Just a thought.
::Clark::
clarkw...@charter.net
> If Oswald didn't "match" the description broadcast three times over
> the police radio, he was close enough to it. The description said a
> white male about 5 feet 10 inches, Oswald was 5 feet 9 inches. The
> description said about 30, Oswald was 24, and with his receding
> hairline looked older. And Oswald indeed had a "slender build".
Was Lee leaving the TSBD when Tippit encountered him and carrying a
30.30 rifle?
If not, Lee matches the description no more than 100,000 other Dallas
males.
>
> And it's not unlikely that Oswald was walking fast, wherever he was
> going.
>
> Two groups of witnesses saw Oswald on 10th Street. One group saw him
> walking west (towards Patton), the other group saw him walking or
> facing east (away from Patton). Dale K. Myers makes a good case that
> Oswald may have turned around when he saw Tippit's squad car
> approaching, and began walking in the opposite direction.
>
Agreed.
>
> Hypothetical conversation:
>
> "Excuse me, do you live around here?"
> "No."
Lee did.
> "Can I ask where you were going?"
> "Just down the street to the movies."
That is where he went.
> "You turned around and started walking the other way as I drove up.
> You looked like you were in a hurry."
> Oswald shrugs.
Oz has some explaining to do.
Likewise, so does Tippit for even being where he is.
> "Do you have some I.D. on you?"
> "Ah…no."
Ah - Yes.
LHO had his choice of ID's - Lee Harvey Oswald or A, J. Hidell.
> "Okay, could you wait right there?"
> Tippit gets out of his car…
Lee walked away in the hope the confrontation was over. Tippit
decided otherwise.
Just a thought.
::Clark::
Gil Jesus
> On Jun 30, 8:10�pm, Robert Harris <reharr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> All Lee's escape route shows is that he was headed south. �There is no
> evidence he knew Jack Ruby.
Au contraire, mon frere
jbarge
I find it awfully hard to believe that Tippit thought he was possibly
confronting JFK's assassin without radioing in.
Tippit was a veteran on the force - what, eleven years?
It simply doesn't hold up that he is going to exit his patrol car and
confront a potentially armed Presidential murderer without radioing
in, let alone requesting back up.
I know oddities occur, especially in this case, but that just doesn't
ring true, to me at least.
clarkw...@charter.net
> Tippit, Ruby, and Oswald
> were known to eat breakfast as regulars together at a restaurant in
> Oakcliff.
They did not eat together or know each other.
>
> Tippit dropped Oswald at the theater and would have been directly able
> to go to the Top Ten Record Store. He obviously was stressed and was
> looking to call someone. Assuming he did his 'job' to that point (and
> yes being a conspirator in the JFK demise) needed to know what his
> next assignment was. He had to know of the methodology of the patsy
> they were creating with the fake or double Oswald, and knew he had to
> be accounted for. He must have known as he went to the area where he
> was. He was pulling cars over and checking them, so Tippit was
> looking frantically. He finally sees 'set-up' Oswald and confronts.
> 'Set up' Oswald is assigned to double cross Tippit and kill him and
> leave a trail of evidence where TSBD Oswald is so he can be double
> crossed as well. TSBD Oswald is waiting their for his contact as he
> goes from seat to seat...as that is the meeting place hoping to find
> someone to take him from there. At his arrest, he says it's all over
> now..and in custody..."they're going to know who I am". He knows he
> has been double crossed, and probably all the more so when he finds
> out his ride to the TSBD has been murdered.
Tippit's behavior and location is difficult to explain. But giving
rides to Oswald? - No.
>
> > It has never made sense that Tippit would have randomly chosen to stop
> > Oswald, who was far from the scene of the assassination and did not match
> > the description that Brennon gave to the police.
>
> Tippit was in a prime spot after the shooting to see Oswald coming to
> the roominghouse as he was at a spot to see cars coming from Dealey to
> Oakcliff at the GLOCO station.
Yes. He was.
>
> > And after he was stopped, why couldn't Oswald have cooly talked his way
> > out of the situation, as he did at the depository? After all, Tippit had
> > absolutely no reason to suspect him at that point.
>
> Exact provocations and what Tippit might have done with this one on
> assignment can be unsure for sure, but that person Tippit stopped
> wanted Tippit dead, not just out of his hair.
It was stepping out of his car that got Tippit killed.
Just a thought.
::Clark:::
clarkw...@charter.net
>
> Tippit was an obstacle to Oswald`s next goal of taking another crack
> at Walker.
>
>
True, but to have you say it rings all wrong. But what's that they
say about a monkey and a typewriter?
Just a thought.
::Clark::
clarkw...@charter.net
> LHO could simply have been doing what he was told to do which was to
> stay by a phone. He could have believed based on what he was told
> that a "fake" assassination attempt was going to to take place so they
> could blame Castro for it and invade Cuba. Who knows, and really it
> does NOT matter as he was accused of being the shooter of JFK, JBC and
> JDT and there is NO evidence that shows this to be the case upon cross-
> examination.
>
Oh, gawd! I'll hate myself for typing this in the morning, but Bud is
right. Lee is looking for a cheap place to stay for Friday and
Saturday night until he can kill Walker on Sunday.
How an LNer like Bud could have figured this out probably qualifies as
one of the great miracles of our century.
>
> Some have posited that it was JDT's task to kill LHO "in-flight" IF
> Ruby blew the chance at the TSBD. Maybe, but we won't ever know for
> sure.
>
Ruby wasn't at the TSBD to blow it.
> > It has never made sense that Tippit would have randomly chosen to stop
> > Oswald, who was far from the scene of the assassination and did not match
> > the description that Brennon gave to the police.
>
> It also makes no sense that the DPD doctored their own transcripts to
> show JDT was ordered there in the first place when he was not. It is
> called CYA.
>
> > And after he was stopped, why couldn't Oswald have cooly talked his way
> > out of the situation, as he did at the depository? After all, Tippit had
> > absolutely no reason to suspect him at that point.
>
> YOU are assuming LHO was even there, and this is a bad thing to do
> with the eyewitness testimony we have.
The evidence that Lee killed Tippit outweighs the evidence he killed
JFK.
> Furthermore, the WC and no
> subsequent government body has ever shown us HOW LHO managed this feat
> IF he did. They gave a claim of him doing things that got him there
> but when folks were asked along the routes IF they saw him they could
> NOT find one person who said yes, we saw him.
He was seen on the bus.
He was seen by the cabdriver.
He was seen by his landlady.
And, unless his pistol can be in two places at the same time, it was
at the Tippit shooting.
> These houses were
> filled with stay-at-home moms and retired folks too so it wasn't like
> he was walking through a deserted area.
>
> It is dangerous to agree with a claim when there is NO evidence that
> will support it upon cross-examination.
>
> > The only logical answer is that Tippit knew exactly who he was looking for
> > and knew the path he would be traveling. And he had a tragically big
> > mouth, letting Oswald know what his plans for him were.
>
> Sorry, there is another logical answer as well. JDT was killed to do
> two things IMO, keep his mouth shut and to make LHO look even guiltier
> (a third could be for failure to do what he was supposed to do - kill
> LHO). Maybe it was the first and the second was a benefit, who
> knows. IF I was a betting man I would say it was Roscoe White who was
> riding with JDT looking for LHO and when they couldn't find him they
> got into a heated disagreement and White popped him.
If I were you, I'd stay away from Las Vegas.
>
> There is NO evidence that will stand up to scrutiny showing LHO was
> anywhere near where the WC said he was when JDT was killed. LHO was
> heading for a safe meeting place too (TT) instead of getting out of
> town so we know there was someone or some group guiding him in these
> times.
Claiming LHO was headed for the Texas Theater is like claiming he was
headed to the shoe store.
Lee ducked into the shoe store when a police cruiser passed. He was
so obvious about the shoe salesman followed him. LHO then ducked a
second cruiser by entering the the theater without paying.
If Lee's destination was the the theater, then he was a complete idiot
to try and get in without paying. That's how you don't get in.
Just a thought.
::Clark::
clarkw...@charter.net
No. He did not. Lee is in the wrong location (Was Tippit to believe
Lee had walked to where he was from the TSBD?), was not carrying a
rifle, and the description fit almost any white male in Dallas at the
time.
But I agree with yur Dale Meyer's argument.
Just a thought.
::Clark::
Bud
> On Jun 30, 9:17 pm, Robert Harris <reharr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > It makes no sense that Tippit could have provoked him to draw his weapon
> > unless Tippit said something that was very provocative.
>
> > Robert Harris- Hide quoted text -
>
> He opened his car door and got out.
> Whatever Lee was selling, Tippit wasn't buying.
>
> But Tippit's behavior, outside a hunch, fails to meet an arrest
> criteria.
Why do you think it got to the "arrest" stage? That Tippit
questioned Oswald from the car speaks to a low level of interest.
Tippit getting out speaks to an increased interest. Neither action
speaks to either an imminent arrest or murder.
> He has no reason to exit the car and pursue Oswald.
"pursue"? Did Oswald try to flee before he killed Tippit?
You guys really shouldn`t be looking into this case at all. Cops
briefly detain and scrutinize people all the time without killing or
arresting them.
> If he exited the car to kill Oswald, then he was careless.
<snicker> Of course he did, what else could he have been getting out
for if not to commit murder?
> Just a thought.
>
> ::Clark::
Bud
The description wasn`t that far off. They had the height very close,
"slender build" was an excellent description of his build.
But, it is more a matter of how close that description matched
Tippt`s perception of the man he was looking at, not Oswald`s actual
statistics. Oswald looks closer to 30 than his actual 23 to me. High
hairline and serious demeanor add years.
yeuhd
> chance of probability, would have to vote "innocent".
Legal point: Juries do not vote that a defendant is "innocent", giving
him a clean reputation. They vote that the defendant is "not guilty",
in other words, that the case against him was not proved beyond a
reasonable doubt. This is a high burden of proof, and juries and their
individual members have sometimes expressed suspicion that the
defendant was indeed guilty as charged, even though the jury voted to
acquit.
curtjester1
I walked the short route in the 13.5, and I walked like I was walking on a
golf course, very steady in a matter-of-fact manner. I am never one of
accused of slow play. Belin the WC lawyer walked it in the same time. I
walked the taxi drop off spot to the roominghouse in 6.5 minutes. The
direct trip to the Texas Theater was just about exactly 20 minutes. One
could have taken Zangs and cut a little off. It never has been brought to
my attention in any way, but Zangs is a major thoroughfare street, and
would have probably had a bus route that could have brought Oswald within
a couple of short blocks to the Texas Theater. (I do believe though that
Tippit took Oswald to the theater and was only a block away to make the
phone call at the record store). Tippit, Ruby, and Oswald often ate
breakfast together in OakCliff as found years later in research.
William Lawrence Smith started his lunch route at the 500 block of East
Tenth. When one is going away from the Tippit murder scene that is East.
Going toward the Texas Theater is West. Smith turned and went East
towards the Town and Country Cafe. Smith brushed up against Oswald over
one block on his walk after turning East.
The first person to see Oswald walking West on East Tenth was a barber
that was FOUR blocks east of the Tippit murder scene. That was a Mr.
Clark. He told the FBI and a customer, he saw him "walking in a great
hurry." That spot is only 2 blocks from Ruby's apartment. Even if one
takes the fast time you posted of 11 minutes to the murder scene, and
extends the distance to an even mile, that would be a trip by Clark's
barber shop to be circa 5 minutes. Now if it was Oswald walking and
getting that far from the roominghouse that would be almost double, ten
minutes. Any which way, walking, is impossible.
The only way to theorize an Oswald-Tippit murder would be if Tippit gave
Oswald a ride to that area, or perhaps Ruby's place and dropped him off.
Then Tippit would have had to go to the record store to make his call and
call Ruby?. Let's say Oswald was dropped at Ruby's, it could be theorized
that Ruby said to off Tippit. But then why? and why would Oswald do that
in order to draw attention to himself?
I believe personally in a real or another Oswald getting into the Nash
Rambler that Craig and many other witnesses saw, and went to a place in
Oakcliff...(also verified), and it was that person that looked enough like
the arrested Oswald as to get taken for him. I believe that the Oswald
that shot Tippit had much more darker and bushier hair as attested by his
barber Shastain who cut his hair, and who blocked his hair in the back,
not like the arrested Oswald who had finer hair and let it just grow it
down his neck.
CJ
yeuhd
> On Jul 1, 8:56 am, yeuhd <NeedlesWax...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > If Oswald didn't "match" the description broadcast three times over
> > the police radio, he was close enough to it. The description said a
> > white male about 5 feet 10 inches, Oswald was 5 feet 9 inches. The
> > description said about 30, Oswald was 24, and with his receding
> > hairline looked older. And Oswald indeed had a "slender build".
>
> Was Lee leaving the TSBD when Tippit encountered him and carrying a
> 30.30 rifle?
>
> If not, Lee matches the description no more than 100,000 other Dallas
> males.
>
>
>
> > And it's not unlikely that Oswald was walking fast, wherever he was
> > going.
>
> > Two groups of witnesses saw Oswald on 10th Street. One group saw him
> > walking west (towards Patton), the other group saw him walking or
> > facing east (away from Patton). Dale K. Myers makes a good case that
> > Oswald may have turned around when he saw Tippit's squad car
> > approaching, and began walking in the opposite direction.
>
> Agreed.
>
>
>
> > Hypothetical conversation:
>
> > "Excuse me, do you live around here?"
> > "No."
>
> Lee did.
Depends on how where "around here" is — this neighborhood, or Oak
Cliff in general. Oswald was almost a mile from his rooming house.
> > "Can I ask where you were going?"
> > "Just down the street to the movies."
>
> That is where he went.
Which is why I wrote that.
> > "You turned around and started walking the other way as I drove up.
> > You looked like you were in a hurry."
> > Oswald shrugs.
>
> Oz has some explaining to do.
>
> Likewise, so does Tippit for even being where he is.
No he didn't. Officer Tippit was assigned to Oak Cliff at large that
afternoon. It's right there in the DPD dispatcher's calls. I refer you
to my post above:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/msg/3ad5f138546c3cb9
> > "Do you have some I.D. on you?"
> > "Ah…no."
>
> Ah - Yes.
> LHO had his choice of ID's - Lee Harvey Oswald or A, J. Hidell.
Tippit examines the "Hidell" Selective Service card. "Could I see some
identification with your current address on it?"
"I don't have any."
Tippit is suspicious. "Could I see your wallet?"
yeuhd
> On Jul 2, 1:03 pm, yeuhd <NeedlesWax...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jun 30, 11:10 pm, Robert Harris <reharr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > And Tippit had "absolutely no reason to suspect" Oswald on 10th? To
> > start, how about that Oswald fit the description of the TSBD shooter
> > broadcast three times over the police radio?
>
> No. He did not.
I refer you to what I wrote above:
If Oswald didn't "match" the description broadcast three times over
the police radio, he was close enough to it. The description said a
white male about 5 feet 10 inches, Oswald was 5 feet 9 inches. The
description said about 30, Oswald was 24, and with his receding
hairline looked older. And Oswald indeed had a "slender build".
> Lee is in the wrong location (Was Tippit to believe
> Lee had walked to where he was from the TSBD?)
Where is the "right" location to be after killing the President? Close
by? And from Elm & Houston to 10th & Patton is only 2.5 miles. At 4
mph, that's a 37.5 minute walk. By public transit, it's 15-17 minutes.
> was not carrying a
> rifle,
Do you really think Tippit or any other police officer assumed the
shooter of the President would be walking around Dallas still carrying
the rifle in hand?
yeuhd
>
> He was seen by the cabdriver.
>
> He was seen by his landlady.
Oswald was seen by his housekeeper, Mrs. Roberts, not by his landlady,
Mrs. Johnson.
Bud
> On Jul 1, 9:07 am, Bud <sirsl...@fast.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Tippit was an obstacle to Oswald`s next goal of taking another crack
> > at Walker.
>
> True, but to have you say it rings all wrong.
Perhaps you are tone deaf.
> But what's that they
> say about a monkey and a typewriter?
You`re in the wrong forum for sex jokes.
> Just a thought.
>
> ::Clark::
Bud
>
> > LHO could simply have been doing what he was told to do which was to
> > stay by a phone. He could have believed based on what he was told
> > that a "fake" assassination attempt was going to to take place so they
> > could blame Castro for it and invade Cuba. Who knows, and really it
> > does NOT matter as he was accused of being the shooter of JFK, JBC and
> > JDT and there is NO evidence that shows this to be the case upon cross-
> > examination.
>
> Oh, gawd! I'll hate myself for typing this in the morning, but Bud is
> right. Lee is looking for a cheap place to stay for Friday and
> Saturday night until he can kill Walker on Sunday.
>
> How an LNer like Bud could have figured this out probably qualifies as
> one of the great miracles of our century.
Bud doesn`t think any of that. Bud thinks Oswald was going to Walker`s
house to try to kill him again that day. Doesn`t matter that Walker was
out of town unless Oswald knows it.
> > Some have posited that it was JDT's task to kill LHO "in-flight" IF
> > Ruby blew the chance at the TSBD. Maybe, but we won't ever know for
> > sure.
>
> Ruby wasn't at the TSBD to blow it.
>
> > > It has never made sense that Tippit would have randomly chosen to stop
> > > Oswald, who was far from the scene of the assassination and did not match
> > > the description that Brennon gave to the police.
>
> > It also makes no sense that the DPD doctored their own transcripts to
> > show JDT was ordered there in the first place when he was not. It is
> > called CYA.
>
> > > And after he was stopped, why couldn't Oswald have cooly talked his way
> > > out of the situation, as he did at the depository? After all, Tippit had
> > > absolutely no reason to suspect him at that point.
>
> > YOU are assuming LHO was even there, and this is a bad thing to do
> > with the eyewitness testimony we have.
>
> The evidence that Lee killed Tippit outweighs the evidence he killed
> JFK.
The evidence that Oswald killed Kennedy shows he killed Kennedy.
likewise, the evidence that he killed Tippit shows he killed Tippit.
curtjester1
> On Jul 1, 9:06 am, curtjester1 <curtjest...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Tippit, Ruby, and Oswald
> > were known to eat breakfast as regulars together at a restaurant in
> > Oakcliff.
>
> They did not eat together or know each other.
>
>
I would suggest you are baiting me for some corroboration. This place of
meeting for the 3 was at the Pig and Whistle in Oakcliff with the
restaurant owned by a Mr. Crater. I forget if his name was Bill or Mel.
You may read a lot on the Tippit Murder in Livingstones's, The Radical
Right and Murder of John F. Kennedy. It starts on pg. 322 and the cite I
gave you is from pg. 323. When research is done by local folks and not
done depended on by the FBI and the WC, one will get a whole new
perspective. There is tons of material out there with Ferrie, Shaw, and
Oswald, and Ruby and Oswald, and some on Tippit and Ruby, and Oswald and
Tippit in the same place of business a few times.
>
>
>
>
>
> > Tippit dropped Oswald at the theater and would have been directly able
> > to go to the Top Ten Record Store. He obviously was stressed and was
> > looking to call someone. Assuming he did his 'job' to that point (and
> > yes being a conspirator in the JFK demise) needed to know what his
> > next assignment was. He had to know of the methodology of the patsy
> > they were creating with the fake or double Oswald, and knew he had to
> > be accounted for. He must have known as he went to the area where he
> > was. He was pulling cars over and checking them, so Tippit was
> > looking frantically. He finally sees 'set-up' Oswald and confronts.
> > 'Set up' Oswald is assigned to double cross Tippit and kill him and
> > leave a trail of evidence where TSBD Oswald is so he can be double
> > crossed as well. TSBD Oswald is waiting their for his contact as he
> > goes from seat to seat...as that is the meeting place hoping to find
> > someone to take him from there. At his arrest, he says it's all over
> > now..and in custody..."they're going to know who I am". He knows he
> > has been double crossed, and probably all the more so when he finds
> > out his ride to the TSBD has been murdered.
>
> Tippit's behavior and location is difficult to explain. But giving
> rides to Oswald? - No.
>
>
There is 'no' plausible way to get to the Tippit murder scene in the
amount of time people have tried to suggest. You can read my subsequent
post where I go into detail about where 'Oswald' was seen prior to the
shooting of Tippit for that. On giving a ride to Oswald, a police car
stopped in front of the roominghouse while Oswald was in there. Earlene
Roberts said their were 2 honks from the vehicle and it just rolled around
the corner. The number on the patrol car was just a little off from
Tippit's can it very well could have been his since he is the only
patrolman that was identified to be on duty and in the vicinity at that
time.
>
> > > It has never made sense that Tippit would have randomly chosen to stop
> > > Oswald, who was far from the scene of the assassination and did not match
> > > the description that Brennon gave to the police.
>
> > Tippit was in a prime spot after the shooting to see Oswald coming to
> > the roominghouse as he was at a spot to see cars coming from Dealey to
> > Oakcliff at the GLOCO station.
>
> Yes. He was.
>
>
>
> > > And after he was stopped, why couldn't Oswald have cooly talked his way
> > > out of the situation, as he did at the depository? After all, Tippit had
> > > absolutely no reason to suspect him at that point.
>
> > Exact provocations and what Tippit might have done with this one on
> > assignment can be unsure for sure, but that person Tippit stopped
> > wanted Tippit dead, not just out of his hair.
>
> It was stepping out of his car that got Tippit killed.
>
Well that's kind of like saying the WTC's fell because of gravity.
Whatever led to his demise it was out of character for police procedure.
Didn't radio in, and he had his gun drawn.
CJ
Robert Harris
<f44c29e7-02e3-4c8c...@e21g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
yeuhd <Needle...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jul 3, 12:23�am, Robert Harris <reharr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > Jimmy Burt saw a man walk west on 10th. Although Burt didn�t see the
> > > shooting, and said he could not
> > > identify the man, he did say that after he heard the shots he saw this
> > > same man running away from the squad car south on Patton.
> >
> > Gosh, someone was running away after the shots went off?? Do you suppose
> > there were LOTS of people running away?
>
> No, there was only one person whom eyewitnesses described as running
> away from the squad car and going south on Patton right after the
> shots were fired. Just one. You know his name.
That's a very misleading statement. Do you suppose that because
witnesses did not say that people were running away from the area of the
shooting, everyone was holding their ground?
No-one testified about that because it was not a significant issue.
And the fact that Burt saw an unidentified man running away from the
shooting means absolutely nothing. He didn't even claim that he saw this
guy involved in the shooting.
>
> > > Bricklayer William Lawrence Smith, after being shown photos of Oswald,
> > > felt sure that Oswald was the man he saw walking westward by him on
> > > 10th Street a few minutes before the Tippit shooting occurred.
> >
> > Funny that he had to be shown pictures, eh? Do you suppose he hadn't
> > seen Oswald a hundred times on television and in the papers?
>
> Please quote where the FBI report said Smith "had to be shown"
> pictures.
LOL!!
You're good Yeuhd.
>
> > And are you aware that Smith also said he saw this guy "a few minutes
> > after 1:00 pm"?
>
> Please quote from the FBI report where Smith said he saw Oswald "a few
> minutes after 1:00 p.m."
http://spot.acorn.net/JFKplace/09/fp.back_issues/25th_Issue/facts.html
"William Lawrence Smith was walking east toward the Town and Country
Cafe (604 E 10th) a few minutes after 1:00 pm. Smith "felt sure that the
man who walked by him going west on 10th St. was Lee Harvey Oswald"
(interview of Smith by Brookhart 1/13/64). At this time, approximately
1:04 pm, "Harvey Oswald" was a mile away --- seen by housekeeper Earlene
Roberts standing at the bus stop on the corner of Zang and Beckley."
I didn't find the 1/13/64 report; there are a lot of FBI reports that
are not available on the internet. But I find it hard to believe that
Armstrong just made it up.
> In fact, the report says, "[Smith] said that
> he left the job and went to lunch, exact time unrecalled, and notice a
> man walking west on 10th Street."
A "few minutes after 1PM" is not an exact time.
>
> > And that Oswald's landlady saw the real Oswald, standing
> > at the bustop about a mile from the murder scene at 1:04PM?
>
> You are confusing Oswald's landlady, Gladys Johnson, with her
> housekeeper, Earlene Roberts. Mrs. Roberts at no time said she looked
> at a watch or a clock to note when Oswald came in or left. In fact,
> she testified that when Oswald came in she was trying to adjust a
> television set to watch the news of the assassination. When asked the
> approximate time Oswald came in, she answered, "it must have been
> AROUND 1 o'clock, or MAYBE a little after", but then concluded, "what
> time I wouldn't want to say."
She did not express that kind of doubt in her original affidavit of
12/5/63, when her memory of the event was much fresher.
As in the case of Smith, you are trying to exploit the fact that honest
witnesses who are not staring at a stopwatch, properly qualify their
statements with "about" or "approximately".
>
> Those who want to place Oswald away from the Tippit shooting site
I cannot speak for those people, since I think Oswald probably shot
Tippit. But Myers' theory is silly. There simply was not enough time for
Oswald to have walked the route that he proposes.
Robert Harris
Robert Harris
<8342734e-1766-4225...@c1g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>,
Bud <sirs...@fast.net> wrote:
> On Jul 4, 9:55 am, clarkwilk...@charter.net wrote:
> > On Jun 30, 9:17 pm, Robert Harris <reharr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > It makes no sense that Tippit could have provoked him to draw his weapon
> > > unless Tippit said something that was very provocative.
> >
> > > Robert Harris- Hide quoted text -
> >
> > He opened his car door and got out.
> > Whatever Lee was selling, Tippit wasn't buying.
> >
> > But Tippit's behavior, outside a hunch, fails to meet an arrest
> > criteria.
>
> Why do you think it got to the "arrest" stage? That Tippit
> questioned Oswald from the car speaks to a low level of interest.
Not necessarily, Bud.
You have no way of knowing that Tippit questioned Oswald. What if he
told Oswald to get in the car?
Robert Harris
yeuhd
> There is 'no' plausible way to get to the Tippit murder scene in the
> amount of time people have tried to suggest.
I refer you again to this video, in which the route is walked on
camera in 11 minutes, 10 seconds:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15fRNaFQczc
> On giving a ride to Oswald, a police car
> stopped in front of the roominghouse while Oswald was in there. Earlene
> Roberts said their were 2 honks from the vehicle and it just rolled around
> the corner. The number on the patrol car was just a little off from
> Tippit's can it very well could have been his since he is the only
> patrolman that was identified to be on duty and in the vicinity at that
> time.
Earlene Roberts said the number of the police car was "207". Then she
said it was "106". Then she said it was "107".
Tippit's squad car number was "10" (on the driver's and front
passenger's doors), and his license plate number was "46601":
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/9/92/Photo_wcd81-1_0176.jpg
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/6/6b/Photo_wcd81-1_0175.jpg
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/f/f9/Photo_wcd81-1_0182.jpg
Vincent Bugliosi, "Reclaiming History", endnotes, p. 38:
Mrs. Earlene Roberts testified before the Warren Commission that she
heard a car horn sound while Oswald was in his room, looked out the
front window, and saw a Dallas police car move off, easing around the
corner from Beckley onto Zangs Boulevard (6 H 43). Although critics
have been quick to seize on Mrs. Roberts’s claims as supportive of the
charge that Oswald met up with police conspirators after leaving his
rooming house, the housekeeper’s account of seeing a Dallas police car
is rife with discrepancies and devoid of logic. Roberts, who admitted
she was “completely blind” in her right eye, and couldn’t “see too
good” with her left, told the FBI the license plate number of the
police car was 207. Roberts waited seven days (November 29) before she
told this story to the FBI. (CE 2249, 25 H 171, FBI interview of
Earlene Roberts on November 29, 1963; CE 2645, 25 H 909) A Dallas
police investigation ascertained that patrol car 207 was nowhere near
Oak Cliff that afternoon, being parked at Houston and Elm at the time,
its operator, Patrolman Jim Valentine, who was the sole occupant of
car 207 on November 22, 1963, assisting in the search of the Book
Depository Building (CE 2249, 25 H 171; CE 2645, 25 H 910, 914). The
next number she came up with was 106 (6 H 443). But at 12:45 p.m. on
the day of the assassination, Dallas officers B. L. Jones and M. D.
Hall, in 106, left their post at the corner of Pearl and Jackson
streets and proceeded to the Book Depository Building, where they
presumably stayed until 1:18 p.m., when they drove to Oak Cliff to
help in the search for Officer Tippit’s killer. (Myers, "With Malice",
p.51) In her Warren Commission testimony, Roberts said, “I don’t know
where I got that 106.” The correct number, she said, was “107.” (6 H
444) But number 107 belonged to a Dallas police car that had been
stripped of its numbering and sold on April 17, 1963, to a used-car
dealer in Sulphur Springs, Texas, and the police didn’t resume using
this number until February of 1964 (CE 2045, 24 H 460).
Ultimately, police were unable to identify any police vehicle that
might have passed in front of 1026 North Beckley at one o’clock that
afternoon (CE 2645, 25 H 909–915; see also 11 HSCA 240). The FBI
conducted its own investigation of Roberts’s allegation and said it
“fails to substantiate” what Roberts said (FBI Record 124-10047-10428,
June 17, 1964). Mrs. Roberts later testified that she thought the
officers in the car might have been Officers “Alexander and Charles
Burnley” whom she had performed housekeeping duties for in the past (6
H 443; worked for in past: CE 2249, 25 H 171). There was only one
Alexander on the force, a Lieutenant Floyd T. Alexander, but he was a
firearms expert who worked in the crime lab, and he didn’t drive a
squad car. There had been another Alexander on the force, Sergeant
Floyd J. Alexander (no relation), but he left the force in 1957. Floyd
Alexander did know Mrs. Roberts, having employed her as a
housekeeper.
He described her as not being very bright, and the kind of person who
“would do almost anything to get attention.” Officer Charles T.
Burnley was equally unsupportive, stating that Mrs. Roberts never
worked for him, nor had he ever met her. (Myers, "With Malice", pp.50–
53, 55)
Bud
It`s possible Clark was referring to his previous landlady, Mrs
Bledsoe.
Robert Harris
<9d3362f8-67de-4ab2...@i18g2000pro.googlegroups.com>,
clarkw...@charter.net wrote:
> On Jun 30, 9:17�pm, Robert Harris <reharr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > It makes no sense that Tippit could have provoked him to draw his weapon
> > unless Tippit said something that was very provocative.
> >
> > Robert Harris- Hide quoted text -
> >
>
> He opened his car door and got out.
> Whatever Lee was selling, Tippit wasn't buying.
Or visa versa.
Robert Harris
yeuhd
> > > And are you aware that Smith also said he saw this guy "a few minutes
> > > after 1:00 pm"?
>
> > Please quote from the FBI report where Smith said he saw Oswald "a few
> > minutes after 1:00 p.m."
>
> http://spot.acorn.net/JFKplace/09/fp.back_issues/25th_Issue/facts.html
>
> "William Lawrence Smith was walking east toward the Town and Country
> Cafe (604 E 10th) a few minutes after 1:00 pm. Smith "felt sure that the
> man who walked by him going west on 10th St. was Lee Harvey Oswald"
> (interview of Smith by Brookhart 1/13/64). At this time, approximately
> 1:04 pm, "Harvey Oswald" was a mile away --- seen by housekeeper Earlene
> Roberts standing at the bus stop on the corner of Zang and Beckley."
>
> I didn't find the 1/13/64 report; there are a lot of FBI reports that
> are not available on the internet. But I find it hard to believe that
> Armstrong just made it up.
You didn't look very hard, because I linked to that very FBI report
earlier in this thread. (Smith interviewed Jan. 11, 1964; report
dictated Jan. 13, 1964; report written Jan. 14, 1964.) Here is my
post, with the link:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/msg/a75ea88be5c91f4b
And here again is the FBI report:
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10730&relPageId=86
And as you can see, yes, John Armstrong DID make it up.
> > In fact, the report says, "[Smith] said that
> > he left the job and went to lunch, exact time unrecalled, and notice a
> > man walking west on 10th Street."
>
> A "few minutes after 1PM" is not an exact time.
William Lawrence Smith never said "a few minutes after 1 p.m." But you
treated that nonexistent time estimate as nearly an exact time when
you said that, based on that timing, Oswald did not have enough time
to be at the Tippit site.
William Lawrence Smith never gave a time estimate in his FBI interview.
yeuhd
> > > seen Oswald a hundred times on television and in the papers?
>
> > Please quote where the FBI report said Smith "had to be shown"
> > pictures.
>
> LOL!!
>
> You're good Yeuhd.
Whatever that means, you still haven't quoted where the FBI report
said William Lawrence Smith "had to be shown" pictures.
Bud
> In article
> <8342734e-1766-4225-8967-b87e4caa0...@c1g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>,
>
>
>
> Bud <sirsl...@fast.net> wrote:
> > On Jul 4, 9:55 am, clarkwilk...@charter.net wrote:
> > > On Jun 30, 9:17 pm, Robert Harris <reharr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > It makes no sense that Tippit could have provoked him to draw his weapon
> > > > unless Tippit said something that was very provocative.
>
> > > > Robert Harris- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > He opened his car door and got out.
> > > Whatever Lee was selling, Tippit wasn't buying.
>
> > > But Tippit's behavior, outside a hunch, fails to meet an arrest
> > > criteria.
>
> > Why do you think it got to the "arrest" stage? That Tippit
> > questioned Oswald from the car speaks to a low level of interest.
>
> Not necessarily, Bud.
>
> You have no way of knowing that Tippit questioned Oswald.
What I have is enough sense to apply to information. Markham said he
there was a discussion between the two. You can imagine that Tippit
ordered him into the car, or under the car, or anything else that strikes
your fancy. The situation speaks to me as a routine, low level of interest
questioning, which Tippit escalated into increased scrutiny.
> What if he
> told Oswald to get in the car?
If Tippit knows Oswald as a person he was supposed to confront, why have
any conversation at all through the window of the patrol car? He`d pull
up, get out, and then confront him. Sitting in the car he has no real
control of the situation, but it does make sense if he was just making a
cursory stop, where Oswald answers or actions led Tippit to take a closer
look at this person.
Bud
> In article
> <9d3362f8-67de-4ab2-8ba9-2d0314335...@i18g2000pro.googlegroups.com>,
>
> clarkwilk...@charter.net wrote:
> > On Jun 30, 9:17 pm, Robert Harris <reharr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > It makes no sense that Tippit could have provoked him to draw his weapon
> > > unless Tippit said something that was very provocative.
>
> > > Robert Harris- Hide quoted text -
>
> > He opened his car door and got out.
> > Whatever Lee was selling, Tippit wasn't buying.
>
> Or visa versa.
Silly to think these are equal propositions. Oswald is the one who
committed the capital crime(s), Tippit was the on-duty officer of the
law.
Robert Harris
<1cdb5b57-77e3-405d...@g7g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
clarkw...@charter.net wrote:
> On Jun 30, 8:10?pm, Robert Harris <reharr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > It makes no sense to imagine Oswald being an innocent patsy. Without
> > benefit of hindsight, the conspirators would expect him to go outside with
> > the other TSBD employees or be in a position where he was seen by other
> > employees. In either case, he would have had a solid alibi.
>
> Obviously, Lee is not an innocent patsy. It certainly has taken a lot
> of years for you to come to this point of view. No insult intended
> because you at least reached it.
Yes, I just thought it up in February.
Of '97.
In fact, you have NEVER seen me claim that Oswald was an innocent patsy,
in this newsgroup or ACJ.
>
>
> >
> > But perhaps, he was another kind of patsy.
> >
> > If Oswald took part in the attack, then doesn't it make sense that he
> > would be told to meet up later with his co-conspirators?
>
> To do what? Celebrate?
To get out of town.
> Lee didn't drink.
>
>
> >And in fact, at
> > the time that he was approached by officer Tippit, he was on a direct
> > course to Jack Ruby's apartment, as this map clearly demonstrates.
> >
> > http://www.jfkhistory.com/pix/mapruby.gif
>
> All Lee's escape route shows is that he was headed south. There is no
> evidence he knew Jack Ruby.
LOL!!
So everyone who saw them together was full of crap, eh? And it doesn't
matter than when Ruby was asked whether he knew Oswald during a polygraph
test, he exhibited obvious signs of deception?
Of course Oswald knew Ruby. Marcellos even admitted that he met with the
two of them prior to the assassination.
>
> >
> > If that was the case, then the others knew the general path that Oswald
> > would take, to get there. It would have been easy for Tippit to intercept
> > him.
> >
> > It has never made sense that Tippit would have randomly chosen to stop
> > Oswald, who was far from the scene of the assassination and did not match
> > the description that Brennon gave to the police.
>
> No. He did not.
> Some officers act on intuition though.
Helluvan intuition, picking out one guy out of thousands.
>
> >
> > And after he was stopped, why couldn't Oswald have cooly talked his way
> > out of the situation, as he did at the depository? After all, Tippit had
> > absolutely no reason to suspect him at that point.
>
> Tippit had a gazillion times less than John McAdams.
>
> >
> > The only logical answer is that Tippit knew exactly who he was looking for
> > and knew the path he would be traveling. And he had a tragically big
> > mouth, letting Oswald know what his plans for him were.
>
> Or the reverse - Lee imagined what Tippit's plans for him were and
> acted.
My best guess is that he just told Oswald to get in the car, and didn't
look like he was trying to find a new friend.
Robert Harris
curtjester1
> On Jul 5, 12:26 pm, Robert Harris <reharr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > > > And are you aware that Smith also said he saw this guy "a few minutes
> > > > after 1:00 pm"?
>
> > > Please quote from the FBI report where Smith said he saw Oswald "a few
> > > minutes after 1:00 p.m."
>
> >http://spot.acorn.net/JFKplace/09/fp.back_issues/25th_Issue/facts.html
>
> > "William Lawrence Smith was walking east toward the Town and Country
> > Cafe (604 E 10th) a few minutes after 1:00 pm. Smith "felt sure that the
> > man who walked by him going west on 10th St. was Lee Harvey Oswald"
> > (interview of Smith by Brookhart 1/13/64). At this time, approximately
> > 1:04 pm, "Harvey Oswald" was a mile away --- seen by housekeeper Earlene
> > Roberts standing at the bus stop on the corner of Zang and Beckley."
>
> > I didn't find the 1/13/64 report; there are a lot of FBI reports that
> > are not available on the internet. But I find it hard to believe that
> > Armstrong just made it up.
>
> You didn't look very hard, because I linked to that very FBI report
> earlier in this thread. (Smith interviewed Jan. 11, 1964; report
> dictated Jan. 13, 1964; report written Jan. 14, 1964.) Here is my
> post, with the link:
>
>
> And here again is the FBI report:
>
>
> And as you can see, yes, John Armstrong DID make it up.
>
That would be a stretch since you have 3 reports. Armstrong didn't
mention a William Lawrence Smith in his book, Harvey and Lee, but did so
for Mr. Clark, the first witness to give an Oswald-west description. One
would think for five witnesses of seeing Oswald going west, one would have
given a time. Scoggins said he left his cab at 1:05 and went to the
corner bar a 1/2 block away just to get a soft drink for his lunch.
> > > In fact, the report says, "[Smith] said that
> > > he left the job and went to lunch, exact time unrecalled, and notice a
> > > man walking west on 10th Street."
>
> > A "few minutes after 1PM" is not an exact time.
>
> William Lawrence Smith never said "a few minutes after 1 p.m." But you
> treated that nonexistent time estimate as nearly an exact time when
> you said that, based on that timing, Oswald did not have enough time
> to be at the Tippit site.
>
> William Lawrence Smith never gave a time estimate in his FBI interview.- Hide quoted text -
>
But he did say it was over 2 minutes before he reached Town & Country
cafe, and he started at the 500 block of E. Tenth which had to be a good
block down from the Tippit murder scene.
CJ
curtjester1
> On Jul 5, 12:45 am, curtjester1 <curtjest...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > There is 'no' plausible way to get to the Tippit murder scene in the
> > amount of time people have tried to suggest.
>
> I refer you again to this video, in which the route is walked on
> camera in 11 minutes, 10 seconds:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15fRNaFQczc
>
Ha, I was watching where they stopped the stopwatch, and thought for sure
they stopped it at 10th and Patton. That's not the Tippit murder scene.
I did walk it the street longer way and it took me 14minutes so I assure
you I wasn't doing anything but walk it. I don't believe you bought into
the extra distances by this video or the other 'walking west' Oswald
witnesses. That would be an extra 3-4 minutes, ONE WAY if Oswald was
walking from the roominghouse. William Lawrence Smith said it took over
two minutes I believe after passing Oswald to get to the T & C Cafe at
Marsalis and E. Tenth. And Clark's barbershop was even further down.
Also Clark said he passed his barbershop walking west, so he even had to
be FURTHER down than that.
> > On giving a ride to Oswald, a police car
> > stopped in front of the roominghouse while Oswald was in there. Earlene
> > Roberts said their were 2 honks from the vehicle and it just rolled around
> > the corner. The number on the patrol car was just a little off from
> > Tippit's can it very well could have been his since he is the only
> > patrolman that was identified to be on duty and in the vicinity at that
> > time.
>
> Earlene Roberts said the number of the police car was "207". Then she
> said it was "106". Then she said it was "107".
>
Look at it logically. She wouldn't have been studying a car's number.
She probably casually noticed. There was NOONE assigned to that area but
Tippit. There was no one on record being there by radio, than Tippit.
There was no one that came forward that said they were there from DPD.
How can one conclude or even begin to theorize it wasn't Tippit?
CJ
Robert Harris
<95876ed2-cbe4-4f38...@h18g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>,
yeuhd <Needle...@gmail.com> wrote:
Yep, I trusted Armstrong and he was full of crap. My bad, as they say.
But I still put little weight on a witness who undoubtedly, saw dozens
of people then and two months later, had to be shown a photograph to
identify Oswald.
He would have been a hundred times stronger if he claimed that he saw
the same guy shooting Tippit, but there was absolutely no reason why he
should have paid more attention to the guy he claims he saw, than anyone
else that day.
Tell me something. Do you put the same credence in witnesses who saw
Oswald and Ruby together under much better conditions?
Robert Harris
yeuhd
> On Jul 5, 7:16 pm, yeuhd <NeedlesWax...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Jul 5, 12:26 pm, Robert Harris <reharr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > I didn't find the 1/13/64 report; there are a lot of FBI reports that
> > > are not available on the internet. But I find it hard to believe that
> > > Armstrong just made it up.
>
> > You didn't look very hard, because I linked to that very FBI report
> > earlier in this thread. (Smith interviewed Jan. 11, 1964; report
> > dictated Jan. 13, 1964; report written Jan. 14, 1964.) Here is my
> > post, with the link:
>
> >http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/msg/a75ea88be5c9...
>
> > And here again is the FBI report:
>
> >http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=107...
>
> > And as you can see, yes, John Armstrong DID make it up.
>
> That would be a stretch since you have 3 reports.
No, there is only one report of the interview with William Lawrence
Smith.
> Armstrong didn't
> mention a William Lawrence Smith in his book, Harvey and Lee,
John Armstrong certainly mentions William Lawrence Smith in the link
you supplied. Here it is again:
http://spot.acorn.net/JFKplace/09/fp.back_issues/25th_Issue/facts.html
"William Lawrence Smith was walking east toward the Town and Country
Cafe (604 E 10th) a few minutes after 1:00 pm."
And he gives as his source the FBI report. But that FBI report has no
time estimate in it.
> > William Lawrence Smith never gave a time estimate in his FBI interview.- Hide quoted text -
>
> But he did say it was over 2 minutes before he reached Town & Country
> cafe, and he started at the 500 block of E. Tenth which had to be a good
> block down from the Tippit murder scene.
No, Smith did not say it was "over 2 minutes" before he reached the
cafe. He gave no time estimate. Read the FBI report. Once again, here
is the link:
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10730&relPageId=86
yeuhd
> On Jul 5, 12:30 pm, yeuhd <NeedlesWax...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jul 5, 12:45 am, curtjester1 <curtjest...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > There is 'no' plausible way to get to the Tippit murder scene in the
> > > amount of time people have tried to suggest.
>
> > I refer you again to this video, in which the route is walked on
> > camera in 11 minutes, 10 seconds:
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15fRNaFQczc
>
> Ha, I was watching where they stopped the stopwatch, and thought for sure
> they stopped it at 10th and Patton. That's not the Tippit murder scene.
They stop the timer when the Oswald stand-in reaches the spot where
Tippit's car stopped, 120 feet east of Patton. Not at the corner of
10th and Patton. Watch the video again at 7:16. The red brick house
with the green trim that he stops in front of is two lots east of
Patton. (Neither of the two houses that were between Patton and the
Tippit shooting site in 1963 are there today.)
> I did walk it the street longer way and it took me 14minutes so I assure
> you I wasn't doing anything but walk it. I don't believe you bought into
> the extra distances by this video or the other 'walking west' Oswald
> witnesses. That would be an extra 3-4 minutes, ONE WAY if Oswald was
Dale Myers writes,
"…Bugliosi and Drenas, as well as many other researchers who have
rejected the notion that Oswald was traveling westbound immediately
before the shooting, fail to realize that the shortest route between
the Beckley rooming house and the Tippit murder scene is not one that
has Oswald circling the area of the shooting scene (as the Drenas
route does). The shortest route would be the one that has Oswald walk
right past the scene where he would kill Tippit, then, double-back on
his route.
"The shortest route, which ends with Oswald headed westbound on Tenth,
would have Oswald leaving his rooming house headed south on Beckley to
Davis, east to Patton, southeast on Patton to Tenth, and east on Tenth
to a point near Marsalis Avenue. At that point, Oswald would double
back on his route, heading back west on Tenth to the scene of the
Tippit shooting at 404 E. Tenth. The total time for the trip would be
about 13.5 minutes – which fits the time period available."
> William Lawrence Smith said it took over
> two minutes I believe after passing Oswald to get to the T & C Cafe at
> Marsalis and E. Tenth.
No, he did not. Read the FBI report.
> Look at it logically. She wouldn't have been studying a car's number.
> She probably casually noticed. There was NOONE assigned to that area but
> Tippit. There was no one on record being there by radio, than Tippit.
> There was no one that came forward that said they were there from DPD.
> How can one conclude or even begin to theorize it wasn't Tippit?
Two of Earlene Roberts' employers — Mrs. Johnson, the owner of the
Beckley rooming house, and Floyd Alexander — said Roberts was in the
habit of making things up to get attention.
P.S. There is no such word as "noone".
curtjester1
> On Jul 5, 9:32 pm, curtjester1 <curtjest...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 5, 7:16 pm, yeuhd <NeedlesWax...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Jul 5, 12:26 pm, Robert Harris <reharr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > I didn't find the 1/13/64 report; there are a lot of FBI reports that
> > > > are not available on the internet. But I find it hard to believe that
> > > > Armstrong just made it up.
>
> > > You didn't look very hard, because I linked to that very FBI report
> > > earlier in this thread. (Smith interviewed Jan. 11, 1964; report
> > > dictated Jan. 13, 1964; report written Jan. 14, 1964.) Here is my
> > > post, with the link:
>
> > >http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/msg/a75ea88be5c9...
>
> > > And here again is the FBI report:
>
> > >http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=107...
>
> > > And as you can see, yes, John Armstrong DID make it up.
>
> > That would be a stretch since you have 3 reports.
>
> No, there is only one report of the interview with William Lawrence
> Smith.
>
> > Armstrong didn't
> > mention a William Lawrence Smith in his book, Harvey and Lee,
>
> John Armstrong certainly mentions William Lawrence Smith in the link
> you supplied. Here it is again:
>
> http://spot.acorn.net/JFKplace/09/fp.back_issues/25th_Issue/facts.html
>
> "William Lawrence Smith was walking east toward the Town and Country
> Cafe (604 E 10th) a few minutes after 1:00 pm."
>
> And he gives as his source the FBI report. But that FBI report has no
> time estimate in it.
>
Funny *disclaimer* on the 14th report on the second page, about a
seemed *retraction* about not being sure of the *"directions"*.
> > > William Lawrence Smith never gave a time estimate in his FBI interview.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > But he did say it was over 2 minutes before he reached Town & Country
> > cafe, and he started at the 500 block of E. Tenth which had to be a good
> > block down from the Tippit murder scene.
>
> No, Smith did not say it was "over 2 minutes" before he reached the
> cafe. He gave no time estimate. Read the FBI report. Once again, here
> is the link:
>
> http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=107...- Hide quoted text -
>
Ahh, you are correct. I misread which is just a matter of syntax. I
assure you though that those blocks are a 'way's' since I walked down
East Tenth. It actually 'J's' back into East Jefferson when you go
past Marsalis. The next light up a block up is Ewing coming up from
the other side of Jefferson. If you take the times you give with your
youtuber's, you will have to realize that they took a different route
that took them down Denver to come out at E. Tenth, and that time was
too far out of the realm of reality for their supposed Oswald walk to
have made. If I am not mistaken, I believe Denver is where Smith and
Burt would have been. Be that as it may, the walk from where
Jefferson and E. Tenth intersect to the Tippit murder scene is quite a
lengthy walk from one has been there. Whoever has the thought of a
Oswald roominghouse walk-Tippit murder kill from the known path the
killer made from walking west, has not got the right man.
Noticeable here, if you are trying to make a case is, the interview
Mr. Clark gave to SA Carl Underhill on 11/29/63. Why would one want
to disregard this? (Mr. Clark was the barber who was cutting hair,
when 'Oswald' came by his shop further down from the east walking
west..."a little after one".) Aren't you looking for a way out and
trying to discredit, rather than looking for truth?
CJ
> - Show quoted text -
Robert Harris
<f9b14db1-bb72-45e0...@o7g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
Bud <sirs...@fast.net> wrote:
> On Jul 5, 12:32 pm, Robert Harris <reharr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > In article
> > <9d3362f8-67de-4ab2-8ba9-2d0314335...@i18g2000pro.googlegroups.com>,
> >
> > clarkwilk...@charter.net wrote:
> > > On Jun 30, 9:17 pm, Robert Harris <reharr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > It makes no sense that Tippit could have provoked him to draw his weapon
> > > > unless Tippit said something that was very provocative.
> >
> > > > Robert Harris- Hide quoted text -
> >
> > > He opened his car door and got out.
> > > Whatever Lee was selling, Tippit wasn't buying.
> >
> > Or visa versa.
>
> Silly to think these are equal propositions. Oswald is the one who
> committed the capital crime(s), Tippit was the on-duty officer of the
> law.
Two men were in charge of the only first hand investigations of this
crime, Bud - DPD Chief Currey and J. Edgar Hoover. Both realized that it
was a conspiracy - as did the vast majority of others who investigated
the crime and as did the vast majority of people throughout the world.
If Oswald was part of a conspiracy, as I think he was, then he had to be
silenced so that he would not identify the others.
The fact that Tippit singled him out from numerous others, as he was
walking toward Ruby's apartment suggests very strongly, that Tippit knew
who he was looking for and where. And the fact that Oswald thought he
needed to kill him, tells us that Tippit was not there to ask routine
questions.
Robert Harris
Robert Harris
<52a2cf4b-e5c0-4e0d...@b14g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,
Bud <sirs...@fast.net> wrote:
Nonsense - if his intention was to kill Oswald, he would not do it in
front of a crowd. He would want to take him somewhere where there were no
witnesses.
He probably didn't realize that Oswald had a gun.
yeuhd
False. Officer W. D. Mentzel (Unit 91) was assigned to police radio
districts 91 (which included both 1026 N. Beckley and 10th & Patton)
and 92 from 7:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. on Nov. 22, 1963. (25 H 909) He was
dispatched to the Tippit shooting.
curtjester1
That isn't quite true. If you use google maps, to get from the
roominghouse to get to past N. Marsalis would use Denver as the cut
through street. Check Google Maps.
> "The shortest route, which ends with Oswald headed westbound on Tenth,
> would have Oswald leaving his rooming house headed south on Beckley to
> Davis, east to Patton, southeast on Patton to Tenth, and east on Tenth
> to a point near Marsalis Avenue. At that point, Oswald would double
> back on his route, heading back west on Tenth to the scene of the
> Tippit shooting at 404 E. Tenth. The total time for the trip would be
> about 13.5 minutes – which fits the time period available."
>
Patently false. First one thing is mistaken. He uses N. Marsalis as a
'far east' point, when the first business 'Oswald' past was further down
the street. That would be the barbershop close to Lancaster. The time
Myers tries to pawn off is also misleading. Google maps has the Tippit
murder scene to Clark's barbershop at 5 minutes walking. It has the
distance to the barbershop at 1/4 the distance that it is from Oswald's
roominghouse to the Tippit Murder scene. The estimated time to walk to
the Tippit murder scene from the roominghouse is 16 minutes, and the
estimated time to walk to the barbershop at 620 East Tenth is about 20
minutes. Then again, there is no way to assert that the barbershop was or
could be the farthest west he could have gone, since he came from further
east to go past the barbershop.
> > William Lawrence Smith said it took over
> > two minutes I believe after passing Oswald to get to the T & C Cafe at
> > Marsalis and E. Tenth.
>
> No, he did not. Read the FBI report.
>
I addressed the syntax mistake, but the fact is it would have taken
him at least that long to get to the T & C cafe from his worksite.
> > Look at it logically. She wouldn't have been studying a car's number.
> > She probably casually noticed. There was NOONE assigned to that area but
> > Tippit. There was no one on record being there by radio, than Tippit.
> > There was no one that came forward that said they were there from DPD.
> > How can one conclude or even begin to theorize it wasn't Tippit?
>
> Two of Earlene Roberts' employers — Mrs. Johnson, the owner of the
> Beckley rooming house, and Floyd Alexander — said Roberts was in the
> habit of making things up to get attention.
>
Exactly, that's why Oswald never came back to the roominghouse. Is
that what you want us to believe??
> P.S. There is no such word as "noone".
nobody cares if one uses no-one, noone, or no one.
CJ
curtjester1
Well, you have 3 dates on one document, and do you have proof that there
was no other interviews by the FBI with W.L. Smith? Did anyone check the
SA interview with Clark, the barber, on 11/29/63 by a Carl Underwood?
There also is no indication that Armstrong was so precise in his efforts
as not to make mistakes either. On the same page in Harvey and Lee, he
confuses Whaley for Scoggins, and has Oswald being 2 blocks north of
Ruby's in one account and 3 blocks north in another.
CJ
Bud
>
>
>
> Bud <sirsl...@fast.net> wrote:
> > On Jul 5, 12:32 pm, Robert Harris <reharr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > In article
> > > <9d3362f8-67de-4ab2-8ba9-2d0314335...@i18g2000pro.googlegroups.com>,
>
> > > clarkwilk...@charter.net wrote:
> > > > On Jun 30, 9:17 pm, Robert Harris <reharr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > It makes no sense that Tippit could have provoked him to draw his weapon
> > > > > unless Tippit said something that was very provocative.
>
> > > > > Robert Harris- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > He opened his car door and got out.
> > > > Whatever Lee was selling, Tippit wasn't buying.
>
> > > Or visa versa.
>
> > Silly to think these are equal propositions. Oswald is the one who
> > committed the capital crime(s), Tippit was the on-duty officer of the
> > law.
>
> Two men were in charge of the only first hand investigations of this
> crime, Bud - DPD Chief Currey and J. Edgar Hoover. Both realized that it
> was a conspiracy - as did the vast majority of others who investigated
> the crime and as did the vast majority of people throughout the world.
What led them to believe there was a conspiracy?
> If Oswald was part of a conspiracy, as I think he was, then he had to be
> silenced so that he would not identify the others.
No, thats stupid thinking. In the real world, you can`t just keep
heaping complexity onto a situation, eventually it will collapse from the
weight of it.
> The fact that Tippit singled him out from numerous others, as he was
> walking toward Ruby's apartment suggests very strongly, that Tippit knew
> who he was looking for and where.
No, it really doesn`t, thats a retard conclusion. You`d make the victim
out to be the perpetrator, based on nothing but retard speculation. The
default answer, until you can put something besides "I figure it musta
happened like this", is that Tippit stopped the youngish slender five foot
nine white male because of the similar description being broadcast over
the police radio. You disregard the obvious to get to the incredible. You
do this because you are retarded.
>And the fact that Oswald thought he
> needed to kill him, tells us that Tippit was not there to ask routine
> questions.
That Tippit spoke to Oswald first through the open car window should
show any thinking person that the encounter started with the asking of
routine questions.
In my experience, when cops *know* a person as a bad guy, they don`t
give a fuck about anything, they jump the curb and pull in front of the
person on the sidewalk, they pile out of the car aggressively, ect. When
they see a person they think might be a person of interest, they pull up
and question, to get a better feel if their suspicions are justified.
Bud
Right. The plan is to arrest him and put him in handcuffs in front
of a bunch of people.
>He would want to take him somewhere where there were no
> witnesses.
What could possibly be his justification for killing a person in
custody?
> He probably didn't realize that Oswald had a gun.
I suppose while we are baselessly speculating, we can say that
whoever killed Kennedy did so in self defense.
yeuhd
> On Jul 6, 12:39 am, yeuhd <NeedlesWax...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jul 5, 9:32 pm, curtjester1 <curtjest...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Jul 5, 7:16 pm, yeuhd <NeedlesWax...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > On Jul 5, 12:26 pm, Robert Harris <reharr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > > I didn't find the 1/13/64 report; there are a lot of FBI reports that
> > > > > are not available on the internet. But I find it hard to believe that
> > > > > Armstrong just made it up.
>
> > > > You didn't look very hard, because I linked to that very FBI report
> > > > earlier in this thread. (Smith interviewed Jan. 11, 1964; report
> > > > dictated Jan. 13, 1964; report written Jan. 14, 1964.) Here is my
> > > > post, with the link:
>
> > > >http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/msg/a75ea88be5c9...
>
> > > > And here again is the FBI report:
>
> > > >http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=107...
>
> > > > And as you can see, yes, John Armstrong DID make it up.
>
> > > That would be a stretch since you have 3 reports.
>
> > No, there is only one report of the interview with William Lawrence
> > Smith.
>
> What about the report the day earlier, that Armstrong quotes from?
There is only one FBI report. FBI SA Brookhart interviewed Smith on
January 11, 1964, dictated his report on January 13, and the report was
typed up on January 14. You'll find the same pattern throughout the FBI
reports: interview date, dictation date, typing date. One report.
Robert Harris
<1de8bb47-db72-4c40...@b15g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,
Bud <sirs...@fast.net> wrote:
Currey was very explicit about that. He said the direction of the blood
and other material that was blown to the rear, proved that at least one
of the shots came from the front.
And he was right about that. In the Zapruder film, it is easy to see,
that nothing was blown to the rear at 313. It is equally easy to see
that massive damage to the back of the head, was inflicted during later
frames.
Hoover was very tight with the mafia and he was privy to phonetaps in
which they talked about the upcoming assassination.
>
> > If Oswald was part of a conspiracy, as I think he was, then he had to be
> > silenced so that he would not identify the others.
>
> No, thats stupid thinking. In the real world, you can`t just keep
> heaping complexity onto a situation, eventually it will collapse from the
> weight of it.
There is nothing complex about killing a witness who was bound to
eventually, turn them in. The mafia did that kind of thing in countless
other cases.
Why was such a thing too complex in the JFK case but not too complex in
a hundred other mafia hits???
>
> > The fact that Tippit singled him out from numerous others, as he was
> > walking toward Ruby's apartment suggests very strongly, that Tippit knew
> > who he was looking for and where.
>
> No, it really doesn`t, thats a retard conclusion.
ROFLMAO!!
A "retard" conclusion???
Am I talking to a grown man or are one of your children using your
account, Bud??
It is wildly improbable that the only person Tippit randomly stopped
that day was Oswald. And getting into a shootout had to have been the
very last thing that Oswald wanted.
Tippit had to have said something that was threatening, that convinced
Oswald that he couldn't talk his way out of the situation.
Your theory that all this was random coincidence, is what is "retarded"
Bud:-)
Robert Harris
Bud
When? During the investigation?
> And he was right about that. In the Zapruder film, it is easy to see,
> that nothing was blown to the rear at 313. It is equally easy to see
> that massive damage to the back of the head, was inflicted during later
> frames.
Where can you see material being blown backward in later frames?
> Hoover was very tight with the mafia and he was privy to phonetaps in
> which they talked about the upcoming assassination.
You think the FBI had tapes where members of the Mafia talked about
killing Kennedy in Dallas?
> > > If Oswald was part of a conspiracy, as I think he was, then he had to be
> > > silenced so that he would not identify the others.
>
> > No, thats stupid thinking. In the real world, you can`t just keep
> > heaping complexity onto a situation, eventually it will collapse from the
> > weight of it.
>
> There is nothing complex about killing a witness who was bound to
> eventually, turn them in.
What you are suggesting occurred is tremendously complex. That you
can`t understand this is one of many reasons you are unsuited and ill
equipped to be looking into this case. I went into this in further
detail in another response, but I didn`t notice that you included the
moderated group in the header, and I think I may have inadvertently
called you "retarded" six or seven times, so it may have been
rejected.
>The mafia did that kind of thing in countless
> other cases.
You can produce no parallel to what you are suggesting.
> Why was such a thing too complex in the JFK case but not too complex in
> a hundred other mafia hits???
Still can`t differentiate between an apple from an orange, eh
Harris? Do you have any idea what is in evidence against Oswald in
this case? Is the Mafia responsible for all this evidence, is this
something the Mafia does?
> > > The fact that Tippit singled him out from numerous others, as he was
> > > walking toward Ruby's apartment suggests very strongly, that Tippit knew
> > > who he was looking for and where.
>
> > No, it really doesn`t, thats a retard conclusion.
>
> ROFLMAO!!
And that is a retard`s reaction.
> A "retard" conclusion???
>
> Am I talking to a grown man or are one of your children using your
> account, Bud??
You are telling the world how retarded you are. I`m bringing it to
your attention.
> It is wildly improbable that the only person Tippit randomly stopped
> that day was Oswald. And getting into a shootout had to have been the
> very last thing that Oswald wanted.
Apparently being apprehended was the last thing he wanted.
> Tippit had to have said something that was threatening, that convinced
> Oswald that he couldn't talk his way out of the situation.
That is a retard`s conclusion. But where would kooks be without
these sorts of absolute "this must mean this" assertions?
> Your theory that all this was random coincidence, is what is "retarded"
Not a coincidence. The police were looking for Oswald for a murder
he committed.
yeuhd
> On Jul 6, 12:13 pm, yeuhd <NeedlesWax...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Dale Myers writes,
>
> > "…Bugliosi and Drenas, as well as many other researchers who have
> > rejected the notion that Oswald was traveling westbound immediately
> > before the shooting, fail to realize that the shortest route between
> > the Beckley rooming house and the Tippit murder scene is not one that
> > has Oswald circling the area of the shooting scene (as the Drenas
> > route does). The shortest route would be the one that has Oswald walk
> > right past the scene where he would kill Tippit, then, double-back on
> > his route.
>
> That isn't quite true. If you use google maps, to get from the
> roominghouse to get to past N. Marsalis would use Denver as the cut
> through street. Check Google Maps.
>
> > "The shortest route, which ends with Oswald headed westbound on Tenth,
> > would have Oswald leaving his rooming house headed south on Beckley to
> > Davis, east to Patton, southeast on Patton to Tenth, and east on Tenth
> > to a point near Marsalis Avenue. At that point, Oswald would double
> > back on his route, heading back west on Tenth to the scene of the
> > Tippit shooting at 404 E. Tenth. The total time for the trip would be
> > about 13.5 minutes – which fits the time period available."
>
> Patently false. First one thing is mistaken. He uses N. Marsalis as a
> 'far east' point, when the first business 'Oswald' past was further down
> the street. That would be the barbershop close to Lancaster.
Dale Myers rightly doesn't use that alleged Oswald sighting, because
the claimant Mr. Clark said he saw Oswald walk past the barber shop on
the *morning* of November 22.
Vincent Bugliosi, "Reclaiming History", endnotes, p. 46:
An Oswald-was-proceeding-west witness whom no one pays attention to is a
man with the last name of Clark who worked at the Tenth Street Barbershop
near the corner of Tenth and Ewing, seven blocks east of Tenth and Patton.
One James A. Barnes telephoned the FBI on November 29, 1963, to inform the
bureau that Clark had told him that “on the morning of November 22”
(which automatically eliminates Oswald, since we know where he was that
morning) a man “he would bet his life on” was Oswald passed his shop
“in a great hurry.” The FBI took “no action” on the phone message.
(FBI File 89-43, Memo from FBI agent Carl Underhill to SAC, Dallas,
November 29, 1963)
> The time
> Myers tries to pawn off is also misleading. Google maps has the Tippit
> murder scene to Clark's barbershop at 5 minutes walking. It has the
> distance to the barbershop at 1/4 the distance that it is from Oswald's
> roominghouse to the Tippit Murder scene. The estimated time to walk to
> the Tippit murder scene from the roominghouse is 16 minutes, and the
> estimated time to walk to the barbershop at 620 East Tenth is about 20
> minutes.
The distance from 1026 N. Beckley to 404 E. 10th Street is 0.85 miles
via Beckley to Davis to Crawford to 10th Street. Walked at 4 miles per
hour, the time is 12 minutes 45 seconds. The Oswald stand-in seen in
the video linked to above walks the route in 11 minutes 10 seconds
(4.6 mph). Here it is again:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15fRNaFQczc
Google Map's 16-minute estimate is based on a leisurely 3.2 mph stroll.
tomnln
Name the exact Officer who took that description from the witness?
Brennan didn't give the description to Sorrels because, Sorrels didn't return until 12:50 or, 12:55.
It wasn't Inspector Sawyer because when the dis[atcher asked about clothing, Sawyer said,
"Current witness can't remember that." (Volume VI page 321)
"yeuhd" <Needle...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:e87f4b88-6b02-48f1...@t13g2000yqt.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 30, 11:10 pm, Robert Harris <
> It has never made sense that Tippit would have randomly chosen to stop
> Oswald, who was far from the scene of the assassination and did not match
> the description that Brennon gave to the police.
the police radio, he was close enough to it. The description said a
white male about 5 feet 10 inches, Oswald was 5 feet 9 inches. The
description said about 30, Oswald was 24, and with his receding
hairline looked older. And Oswald indeed had a "slender build".
And it's not unlikely that Oswald was walking fast, wherever he was
going.
Two groups of witnesses saw Oswald on 10th Street. One group saw him
walking west (towards Patton), the other group saw him walking or
facing east (away from Patton). Dale K. Myers makes a good case that
Oswald may have turned around when he saw Tippit's squad car
approaching, and began walking in the opposite direction.
See "Why Tippit stopped Oswald" about a third the way down this page:
http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2008/11/with-malice-tippit-murder-45-years.html
> out of the situation, as he did at the depository? After all, Tippit had
> absolutely no reason to suspect him at that point.
"Excuse me, do you live around here?"
"No."
"Can I ask where you were going?"
"Just down the street to the movies."
"You turned around and started walking the other way as I drove up.
You looked like you were in a hurry."
Oswald shrugs.
"Do you have some I.D. on you?"
"Ah…no."
"Okay, could you wait right there?"
Tippit gets out of his car…
curtjester1
Well that would be dumb wouldn't it? You have an extremely important
aspect of the case and you would depend on a general time and hearsay?
How often do people confuse morning in aftertoon around lunchtime?
Especially when one hasn't left for lunch.
> Vincent Bugliosi, "Reclaiming History", endnotes, p. 46:
>
> An Oswald-was-proceeding-west witness whom no one pays attention to is a
> man with the last name of Clark who worked at the Tenth Street Barbershop
> near the corner of Tenth and Ewing, seven blocks east of Tenth and Patton.
> One James A. Barnes telephoned the FBI on November 29, 1963, to inform the
> bureau that Clark had told him that “on the morning of November 22”
> (which automatically eliminates Oswald, since we know where he was that
> morning) a man “he would bet his life on” was Oswald passed his shop
> “in a great hurry.” The FBI took “no action” on the phone message.
> (FBI File 89-43, Memo from FBI agent Carl Underhill to SAC, Dallas,
> November 29, 1963)
>
Of course, the same pattern is used when they don't speak of the Oswald
sightings that were made the same day when Oswald was at work at the TSBD
on 11/22/63. If it's 'inconvenient', just toss it, was their motto. So
who is this James A. Barnes? Was he the person in the barbershop that Mr.
Clark spoke to when he spoke of "a customer in the chair."?
> > The time
> > Myers tries to pawn off is also misleading. Google maps has the Tippit
> > murder scene to Clark's barbershop at 5 minutes walking. It has the
> > distance to the barbershop at 1/4 the distance that it is from Oswald's
> > roominghouse to the Tippit Murder scene. The estimated time to walk to
> > the Tippit murder scene from the roominghouse is 16 minutes, and the
> > estimated time to walk to the barbershop at 620 East Tenth is about 20
> > minutes.
>
> The distance from 1026 N. Beckley to 404 E. 10th Street is 0.85 miles
> via Beckley to Davis to Crawford to 10th Street. Walked at 4 miles per
> hour, the time is 12 minutes 45 seconds. The Oswald stand-in seen in
> the video linked to above walks the route in 11 minutes 10 seconds
> (4.6 mph). Here it is again:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15fRNaFQczc
>
> Google Map's 16-minute estimate is based on a leisurely 3.2 mph stroll.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
To the barbershop from Tenth and Patton is 4 blocks. 3 blocks to
Marsalis. 4 blocks is almost half the distance from the roominghouse, so
it's not hard to figure the math.
I have used google maps to take walks to destinations around my home, and
they are not what I would consider leisurely. I would consider it a good
walk with good pace with no deviation or stopping. I would advise all to
take the Mike Brownlow tour from the Grassy Knoll in Dallas. He will tell
you of the whole neighborhood at the Tippit murder scene. One can walk
all these distances themselves.
If anyone can find the SA Carl Underhill report with Mr. Clark online, or
in a publication, I would sure be most grateful.
CJ
yeuhd
> I walked the short route in the 13.5, and I walked like I was walking on a
> golf course, very steady in a matter-of-fact manner. I am never one of
> accused of slow play. Belin the WC lawyer walked it in the same time.
Actually, no, he didn't. David Belin wrote that walking the route
Beckley to Davis to Crawford to 10th took him 14 minutes, and the
route Beckley to Davis to Patton to 10th took him 12 minutes. (David
W. Belin, "November 22, 1963: You Are the Jury", p. 419)
Vincent Bugliosi, at age 65, walked the route Beckley to Davis to
Crawford to 10th in 11 minutes 23 seconds.
Walt
> "tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote in messagenews:zaM2m.881$Wx7...@newsfe04.iad...
>
> Name the exact witness who gave that description?
>
> Name the exact Officer who took that description from the witness?
>
> Because yeuhd is so slow on his reply, I'll provide the information.
>
> Brennan didn't give the description to Sorrels because, Sorrels didn't return until 12:50 or, 12:55.
>
> It wasn't Inspector Sawyer because when the dis[atcher asked about clothing, Sawyer said,
> "Current witness can't remember that." (Volume VI page 321)
Brennan WAS the man who gave Sawyer the description of the sixth floor
gunman (who was NOT Oswald).... Simply because Sawyer said..."
Current witness can't remember that"..does NOT constitute proof that
Brennan wasn't the man who talked to Sawyer. In the excitement and
confusion of the moment Sawyer very easily could have forgotten
Brennan's description of the mans clothing, and therfore simply told
the dispatcher.... "Current wittness can't remember that", or Sawyer
may have been distracted by something at the moment that Brennan
said...."The man was dressed in light colored clothing". There are any
number of possibilities that Sawyer said..." current witness can't
remember that"... But there's little doubt that Howard Brennan was the
man who gave sawyer the description of the gunman on the sixth floor.
Brennan had to have been the person because he's the ONLY person who
came forward in the few minutes after the shooting and told the cops
that he seen a gunman behind a wide open window at the corner of the
sixth floor.
> "yeuhd" <NeedlesWax...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:e87f4b88-6b02-48f1...@t13g2000yqt.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 30, 11:10 pm, Robert Harris <reharr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > It has never made sense that Tippit would have randomly chosen to stop
> > Oswald, who was far from the scene of the assassination and did not match
> > the description that Brennon gave to the police.
>
> If Oswald didn't "match" the description broadcast three times over
> the police radio, he was close enough to it. The description said a
> white male about 5 feet 10 inches, Oswald was 5 feet 9 inches. The
> description said about 30, Oswald was 24, and with his receding
> hairline looked older. And Oswald indeed had a "slender build".
>
> And it's not unlikely that Oswald was walking fast, wherever he was
> going.
>
> Two groups of witnesses saw Oswald on 10th Street. One group saw him
> walking west (towards Patton), the other group saw him walking or
> facing east (away from Patton). Dale K. Myers makes a good case that
> Oswald may have turned around when he saw Tippit's squad car
> approaching, and began walking in the opposite direction.
>
> See "Why Tippit stopped Oswald" about a third the way down this page:http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2008/11/with-malice-tippit-murder-45-yea...
Robert
> "tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote in messagenews:zaM2m.881$Wx7...@newsfe04.iad...
>
> Name the exact witness who gave that description?
>
> Name the exact Officer who took that description from the witness?
>
> Because yeuhd is so slow on his reply, I'll provide the information.
>
> Brennan didn't give the description to Sorrels because, Sorrels didn't return until 12:50 or, 12:55.
>
> It wasn't Inspector Sawyer because when the dis[atcher asked about clothing, Sawyer said,
> "Current witness can't remember that." (Volume VI page 321)
Great points Tom. Also when Sorrels did come back to the TSBD he went
in the BACK entrance through the loading docks because he mentioned NO
one was stationed there to check who was going out or in. I think he
mentioned he only saw a worker there, but NO police officers. He then
went to find Truly so he did NOT go out front. In any event his
return was AFTER the time the description was broadcasted anyway
(12:45 PM CST).
> "yeuhd" <NeedlesWax...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:e87f4b88-6b02-48f1...@t13g2000yqt.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 30, 11:10 pm, Robert Harris <reharr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > It has never made sense that Tippit would have randomly chosen to stop
> > Oswald, who was far from the scene of the assassination and did not match
> > the description that Brennon gave to the police.
>
> If Oswald didn't "match" the description broadcast three times over
> the police radio, he was close enough to it. The description said a
> white male about 5 feet 10 inches, Oswald was 5 feet 9 inches. The
> description said about 30, Oswald was 24, and with his receding
> hairline looked older. And Oswald indeed had a "slender build".
>
> And it's not unlikely that Oswald was walking fast, wherever he was
> going.
>
> Two groups of witnesses saw Oswald on 10th Street. One group saw him
> walking west (towards Patton), the other group saw him walking or
> facing east (away from Patton). Dale K. Myers makes a good case that
> Oswald may have turned around when he saw Tippit's squad car
> approaching, and began walking in the opposite direction.
>
> See "Why Tippit stopped Oswald" about a third the way down this page:http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2008/11/with-malice-tippit-murder-45-yea...
Robert
> On Jul 8, 9:12 pm, "tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> > "tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote in messagenews:zaM2m.881$Wx7...@newsfe04.iad...
>
> > Name the exact witness who gave that description?
>
> > Name the exact Officer who took that description from the witness?
>
> > Because yeuhd is so slow on his reply, I'll provide the information.
>
> > Brennan didn't give the description to Sorrels because, Sorrels didn't return until 12:50 or, 12:55.
>
> > It wasn't Inspector Sawyer because when the dis[atcher asked about clothing, Sawyer said,
> > "Current witness can't remember that." (Volume VI page 321)
>
> Brennan WAS the man who gave Sawyer the description of the sixth floor
> gunman (who was NOT Oswald)....
Prove it for once! Why couldn't Sawyer even remember what the man
looked like (or acted like he didn't) he gave him the description? Why
did the description NOT include clothing? Why did Sawyer NOT remember
something as obvious as a YELLOW CONSTRUCTION HELMET? Why did Sawyer
NOT get the name of the witness? This is STANDARD police procedure.
> Simply because Sawyer said..."
> Current witness can't remember that"..does NOT constitute proof that
> Brennan wasn't the man who talked to Sawyer.
Tom can address this as I don't have my stuff in front of me, but I am
pretty sure Brennan said HE INCLUDED a clothing description, so why
did Sawyer NOT have one IF he was the man who spoke with Brennan?
> In the excitement and
> confusion of the moment Sawyer very easily could have forgotten
> Brennan's description of the mans clothing, and therfore simply told
> the dispatcher.... "Current wittness can't remember that", or Sawyer
> may have been distracted by something at the moment that Brennan
> said...."The man was dressed in light colored clothing".
LOL!! So a man who rises to the "Inspector" level can't function in
the "heat of the moment"? Good one Walt. Do you have any thing
besides OPINION and speculation?
> There are any
> number of possibilities that Sawyer said..." current witness can't
> remember that"... But there's little doubt that Howard Brennan was the
> man who gave sawyer the description of the gunman on the sixth floor.
Where is your evidence for this claim Walt? YOU are just speculating
again, which is fine, but don't tell us there is "little doubt"
because there really is a MAJOR DOUBT.
> Brennan had to have been the person because he's the ONLY person who
> came forward in the few minutes after the shooting and told the cops
> that he seen a gunman behind a wide open window at the corner of the
> sixth floor.
I love this "circular" reasoning, don't you? LNers use this stuff all
the time. There is NO evidence Brennan came forward a few minutes
after the shooting, we have just BEEN TOLD THAT.
tomnln
"Robert" <robc...@netscape.com> wrote in message
news:c693aa07-29a7-4ced...@d32g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
> "Ah�no."
> "Okay, could you wait right there?"
> Tippit gets out of his car�
tomnln
http://whokilledjfk.net/testimony.htm
You will find>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/howard_brennan.htm
You will find>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/sorrels.htm
You will find>>>
http://whokilledjfk.net/inspector_sawyer_____volume_vi.htm
Wally World is the "Joe Isuzu" of the JFK Assassination>>>
http://whokilledjfk.net/wally_world.htm
Until you've read the evidence/testimony in the 26 volumes, you'll Never
know for SURE which side is Lying to you.
"Robert" <robc...@netscape.com> wrote in message
news:07785be4-5299-4947...@24g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
curtjester1
Amazing 'coincidence' that these 'timers' have a definite bias of
wanting to have Oswald as a Lone Gunman.
And other's have him at 17 minutes and 45 seconds.
Here's the way I look at it. You have two people who have Oswald
entering the Texas Theater well before the 1:20 showing of the movie,
one specifially said between 1:00-1:07. Three witnesses with time
devices have Tippit murdered at 1:10 or prior. Curiously, no one sees
Oswald or a Tippit assailant walking toward the east end of East
Tenth. They see him walking west from way beyond the Tippit murder
scene, which by itself if one is talking backtracking another 6
minutes minium from the Tippit murder area. So were not even talking
about the roominhouse to Tippit murder scene yet. If were talking
Oswald as a murderer of a President without help, he seems to walking
without purpose, aimlessly. Tippit who is not really assigned to the
area, is behaving erratically prior to meeting up with Oswald, and why
would he be looking for any specific murderer, when no one else is in
a controlled manhunt? Even if he is looking casually for a suspect,
why would he go down an obscure street like Tenth?
It only begins to make sense when you have Tippit, Oswald, and Ruby as
breakfast pals dining at the same table at the same restaurant in Oak
Cliff, by restaurant owner, Carter.
CJ
yeuhd
> On Jul 7, 8:29 pm, yeuhd <NeedlesWax...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Dale Myers rightly doesn't use that alleged Oswald sighting, because
> > the claimant Mr. Clark said he saw Oswald walk past the barber shop on
> > the *morning* of November 22.
>
> Well that would be dumb wouldn't it? You have an extremely important
> aspect of the case and you would depend on a general time and hearsay?
> How often do people confuse morning in aftertoon around lunchtime?
> Especially when one hasn't left for lunch.
I see. You're willing to allow Mr. Clark to be an hour or more off in
his time estimate, and to confuse afternoon for morning, if it will
help get Oswald away from the Tippit shooting site. But you have yet
to concede that Oswald's housekeeper Earlene Roberts could have been
five minutes off in her time estimate.
yeuhd
> "tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote in messagenews:zaM2m.881$Wx7...@newsfe04.iad...
>
> Name the exact witness who gave that description?
>
> Name the exact Officer who took that description from the witness?
>
> Because yeuhd is so slow on his reply, I'll provide the information.
>
> Brennan didn't give the description to Sorrels because, Sorrels didn't return until 12:50 or, 12:55.
How is that relevant in THIS discussion? We are discussing what may
have caused Tippit to stop Oswald. The fact remains that the
description WAS broadcast. By 1:00 p.m. it was broadcast three times
to all police units.
bigdog
I made the walk two years ago in just over 13 minutes, stopping very
briefly at the one traffic light on the way. My normal walking pace is
faster than most people's so I would expect to do it a little faster.
We don't really know what kind of pace Oswald walked at but since we
don't know precisely the time he left his rooming house or precisely
what time the encounter with Tippit took place, ballpark figures is
probably the best we can do. The ballpark figures indicate that Oswald
could have arrived at 10th and Patton at about the time the encounter
took place.
yeuhd
> On Jul 9, 8:56 am, yeuhd <NeedlesWax...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jul 5, 12:34 am, curtjester1 <curtjest...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > I walked the short route in the 13.5, and I walked like I was walking on a
> > > golf course, very steady in a matter-of-fact manner. I am never one of
> > > accused of slow play. Belin the WC lawyer walked it in the same time.
>
> > Actually, no, he didn't. David Belin wrote that walking the route
> > Beckley to Davis to Crawford to 10th took him 14 minutes, and the
> > route Beckley to Davis to Patton to 10th took him 12 minutes. (David
> > W. Belin, "November 22, 1963: You Are the Jury", p. 419)
>
> > Vincent Bugliosi, at age 65, walked the route Beckley to Davis to
> > Crawford to 10th in 11 minutes 23 seconds.
>
> Amazing 'coincidence' that these 'timers' have a definite bias of
> wanting to have Oswald as a Lone Gunman.
>
> And other's have him at 17 minutes and 45 seconds.
>
>
> Here's the way I look at it. You have two people who have Oswald
> entering the Texas Theater well before the 1:20 showing of the movie,
> one specifially said between 1:00-1:07.
You have yet to offer any evidence that Jack Davis was actually in the
Texas Theater. There is no evidence other than his claim, which was
first made decades after 1963. And you have yet to explain why Butch
Burroughs, in his Warren Commission testimony, said nothing about
seeing Oswald enter, and said nothing about recognizing Oswald from
earlier when he was brought out under arrest. And in fact, speculated
in his testimony that Oswald got in the auditorium by going up the
balcony steps in the lobby when Burroughs was distracted with work.
> Three witnesses with time
> devices have Tippit murdered at 1:10 or prior. Curiously, no one sees
> Oswald or a Tippit assailant walking toward the east end of East
> Tenth.
Dale K. Myers:
"None of the Tippit eyewitnesses mentioned above would have been in
their reported positions at the time that Oswald first passed those
locations. For instance, when Oswald was traveling south on Patton he
wouldn't have passed Helen Markham because she hadn't left her home at
Ninth and Patton yet. Nor would Oswald have encountered cab driver
William Scoggins, who was still at the Gentlemen's Club watching
television. Likewise, Jimmy Burt and Bill Smith hadn't left Burt's
brother's home at Ninth and Denver at the time Oswald was headed
eastbound on Tenth. And brick mason William Lawrence Smith hadn't
stopped work to go to lunch at a Marsalis Avenue cafe yet.
"It was only on Oswald's return trip, back westbound on Tenth, that
the Tippit eyewitnesses had moved to the locations reported in their
testimony – William Lawrence Smith had started east on Tenth to go to
lunch, Jimmy Burt and Bill Smith had walked from Ninth and Denver to
Burt's home on Tenth Street, William Scoggins had walked back to his
cab at Patton and Tenth, and Helen Markham had left her home and had
walked south on Patton to the corner of Tenth."
> They see him walking west from way beyond the Tippit murder
> scene, which by itself if one is talking backtracking another 6
> minutes minium from the Tippit murder area.
The total distance from Oswald's rooming house, via Beckley to Davis
to Crawford to Tenth, going east on Tenth, stopping and turning around
in the 500 block, and returning to 120 feet east of Patton, is 1.0
miles. Walked at 4.6 mph, the pace at which the Oswald stand-in walks
in the video linked to above, it takes 13 minutes.
> Tippit who is not really assigned to the
> area
Tippit certainly was assigned to Oak Cliff that afternoon.
12:45 p.m.
DISPATCHER (MURRAY J. JACKSON): [Units] 87, 78, move into central Oak
Cliff area.
78 (J.D. TIPPIT): I'm about Kiest and Bonnie View.
87 (RONALD C. NELSON): 87's going north on Marsalis at R. L.
Thornton.
12:54 p.m.
DISPATCHER: 78.
78: 78.
DISPATCHER: You are in the Oak Cliff area, are you not?
78: Lancaster and Eighth.
DISPATCHER: You will be at large for any emergency that comes in.
78: 10-4.
http://www.billdrenas.com/articles/dpd01-00.pdf
From the Warren Commission Testimony of Dallas police Chief Jesse
Curry:
Mr. DULLES. Was Tippit at the time he was killed on a regular assigned
assignment or was he just roving in a particular area?
Mr. CURRY. On this particular day, now he had been assigned to Oak
Cliff for several months farther out than he was, but when this
incident occurred at the Texas School Book Depository, this is
customary policy in the police department if something happens on this
district and tying up several squads that the squads from the other
district automatically move in in a position where they can cover off
or something else might happen here, much the same as fire equipment
does, this is automatic.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you explain that further?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; say two squads were to get a call in an area, and
this area here, say they had a big fire or something, they brought two
or three squads in here from adjoining districts, then automatically
these squads out in these other areas would begin to cover off or get
in a position to where if instead of staying out here on the far side
of this district, they would perhaps move into this district right
here where they could answer here, here or over into here. This is
just automatic patrol policy.
. . . .
Mr. CURRY. And the dispatcher told him, "You will be at large for any
emergency that comes in." In other words, he was one of the remaining
squads in Oak Cliff that was in service.
Mr. DULLES. What does that mean, scout around the area?
Mr. CURRY. Anywhere in that central area, Oak Cliff.
> Even if he is looking casually for a suspect,
> why would he go down an obscure street like Tenth?
He was on patrol. That is what a squad car on patrol does. His primary
duty was not to hunt for the President's assassin. His primary duty
was to patrol the district. Patrol the district means to drive
throughout the district, not just on main streets.