Oswald the patsy?
Robert Harris
benefit of hindsight, the conspirators would expect him to go outside with
the other TSBD employees or be in a position where he was seen by other
employees. In either case, he would have had a solid alibi.
But perhaps, he was another kind of patsy.
If Oswald took part in the attack, then doesn't it make sense that he
would be told to meet up later with his co-conspirators? And in fact, at
the time that he was approached by officer Tippit, he was on a direct
course to Jack Ruby's apartment, as this map clearly demonstrates.
http://www.jfkhistory.com/pix/mapruby.gif
If that was the case, then the others knew the general path that Oswald
would take, to get there. It would have been easy for Tippit to intercept
him.
It has never made sense that Tippit would have randomly chosen to stop
Oswald, who was far from the scene of the assassination and did not match
the description that Brennon gave to the police.
And after he was stopped, why couldn't Oswald have cooly talked his way
out of the situation, as he did at the depository? After all, Tippit had
absolutely no reason to suspect him at that point.
The only logical answer is that Tippit knew exactly who he was looking for
and knew the path he would be traveling. And he had a tragically big
mouth, letting Oswald know what his plans for him were.
There is no doubt that Ruby knew Tippit. He simply told him where to look
for Oswald and expected the cop to do the job that he would ultimately get
stuck with.
Robert Harris
Robert Harris
<reharris1-8FB34...@70-3-168-216.pools.spcsdns.net>,
Robert Harris <reha...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> It makes no sense to imagine Oswald being an innocent patsy. Without
> benefit of hindsight, the conspirators would expect him to go outside with
> the other TSBD employees or be in a position where he was seen by other
> employees. In either case, he would have had a solid alibi.
>
> But perhaps, he was another kind of patsy.
>
> If Oswald took part in the attack, then doesn't it make sense that he
> would be told to meet up later with his co-conspirators? And in fact, at
> the time that he was approached by officer Tippit, he was on a direct
> course to Jack Ruby's apartment, as this map clearly demonstrates.
>
> http://www.jfkhistory.com/pix/mapruby.gif
>
> If that was the case, then the others knew the general path that Oswald
> would take, to get there. It would have been easy for Tippit to intercept
> him.
>
> It has never made sense that Tippit would have randomly chosen to stop
> Oswald, who was far from the scene of the assassination and did not match
> the description that Brennon gave to the police.
>
> And after he was stopped, why couldn't Oswald have cooly talked his way
> out of the situation, as he did at the depository? After all, Tippit had
> absolutely no reason to suspect him at that point.
Minor correction. Of course, Oswald didn't talk when he was spotted at the
depository, but he certainly remained calm and cool, even after Baker had
drawn his gun.
It makes no sense that Tippit could have provoked him to draw his weapon
unless Tippit said something that was very provocative.
Robert Harris
yeuhd
> It has never made sense that Tippit would have randomly chosen to stop
> Oswald, who was far from the scene of the assassination and did not match
> the description that Brennon gave to the police.
If Oswald didn't "match" the description broadcast three times over
the police radio, he was close enough to it. The description said a
white male about 5 feet 10 inches, Oswald was 5 feet 9 inches. The
description said about 30, Oswald was 24, and with his receding
hairline looked older. And Oswald indeed had a "slender build".
And it's not unlikely that Oswald was walking fast, wherever he was
going.
Two groups of witnesses saw Oswald on 10th Street. One group saw him
walking west (towards Patton), the other group saw him walking or
facing east (away from Patton). Dale K. Myers makes a good case that
Oswald may have turned around when he saw Tippit's squad car
approaching, and began walking in the opposite direction.
See "Why Tippit stopped Oswald" about a third the way down this page:
http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2008/11/with-malice-tippit-murder-45-years.html
> And after he was stopped, why couldn't Oswald have cooly talked his way
> out of the situation, as he did at the depository? After all, Tippit had
> absolutely no reason to suspect him at that point.
Hypothetical conversation:
"Excuse me, do you live around here?"
"No."
"Can I ask where you were going?"
"Just down the street to the movies."
"You turned around and started walking the other way as I drove up.
You looked like you were in a hurry."
Oswald shrugs.
"Do you have some I.D. on you?"
"Ah…no."
"Okay, could you wait right there?"
Tippit gets out of his car…
curtjester1
> benefit of hindsight, the conspirators would expect him to go outside with
> the other TSBD employees or be in a position where he was seen by other
> employees. In either case, he would have had a solid alibi.
>
know at least that 'something' was going to happen.
> But perhaps, he was another kind of patsy.
>
That would be the crux. Was he told that there was going to be some
shots fired to scare JFK? If he knew that there was going to be a
dead JFK, what was his role, and what was he signing up for?
> If Oswald took part in the attack, then doesn't it make sense that he
> would be told to meet up later with his co-conspirators? And in fact, at
> the time that he was approached by officer Tippit, he was on a direct
> course to Jack Ruby's apartment, as this map clearly demonstrates.
>
Provably negative. Obviously scenarios can go a little wild, but
Oswald was seen in the theater much earlier than what was is often
assumed as a late arriving Oswald coming to the theater before the
fairly quick arrest. There is no one who identified Oswald as coming
in the theater at that time and sitting down. All the evidence shows
he was there very earlier and engaged in lots of activities, and have
been time-wise corroborated by two, Jack Davis, and Butch Burroughs as
being a good 20-30 minutes before the arrest in the main part of the
theater.
Also, whoever Tippit confronted was clearly at the end of E. Tenth
which is not on the direct way to Ruby's, and can't be the one who
left the roominghouse as it another 3-5 minutes from the Tippit
shooting scene. Tippit most likely honked in front of Oswald's
roominghouse and took him to the theater. Tippit, Ruby, and Oswald
were known to eat breakfast as regulars together at a restaurant in
Oakcliff.
> http://www.jfkhistory.com/pix/mapruby.gif
>
> If that was the case, then the others knew the general path that Oswald
> would take, to get there. It would have been easy for Tippit to intercept
> him.
>
Tippit dropped Oswald at the theater and would have been directly able
to go to the Top Ten Record Store. He obviously was stressed and was
looking to call someone. Assuming he did his 'job' to that point (and
yes being a conspirator in the JFK demise) needed to know what his
next assignment was. He had to know of the methodology of the patsy
they were creating with the fake or double Oswald, and knew he had to
be accounted for. He must have known as he went to the area where he
was. He was pulling cars over and checking them, so Tippit was
looking frantically. He finally sees 'set-up' Oswald and confronts.
'Set up' Oswald is assigned to double cross Tippit and kill him and
leave a trail of evidence where TSBD Oswald is so he can be double
crossed as well. TSBD Oswald is waiting their for his contact as he
goes from seat to seat...as that is the meeting place hoping to find
someone to take him from there. At his arrest, he says it's all over
now..and in custody..."they're going to know who I am". He knows he
has been double crossed, and probably all the more so when he finds
out his ride to the TSBD has been murdered.
> It has never made sense that Tippit would have randomly chosen to stop
> Oswald, who was far from the scene of the assassination and did not match
> the description that Brennon gave to the police.
>
Tippit was in a prime spot after the shooting to see Oswald coming to
the roominghouse as he was at a spot to see cars coming from Dealey to
Oakcliff at the GLOCO station.
> And after he was stopped, why couldn't Oswald have cooly talked his way
> out of the situation, as he did at the depository? After all, Tippit had
> absolutely no reason to suspect him at that point.
>
Exact provocations and what Tippit might have done with this one on
assignment can be unsure for sure, but that person Tippit stopped
wanted Tippit dead, not just out of his hair.
> The only logical answer is that Tippit knew exactly who he was looking for
> and knew the path he would be traveling. And he had a tragically big
> mouth, letting Oswald know what his plans for him were.
>
> There is no doubt that Ruby knew Tippit. He simply told him where to look
> for Oswald and expected the cop to do the job that he would ultimately get
> stuck with.
>
It's what's never investigated but can be established. Oswald,
Tippit, and Ruby were players and knew quite a bit about the
assassination. Ruby said so eventually. Oswald said he was a
"patsy". He wouldn't have said that if he knew he wasn't double
crossed. Tippit never had a chance to tell his story. Actually only
Ruby did, and eventually I believe he was going to get his chance and
became the third patsy.
CJ
> Robert Harris
Bud
> In article
> <reharris1-8FB349.00594530062...@70-3-168-216.pools.spcsdns.net>,
> Robert Harris <reharr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > It makes no sense to imagine Oswald being an innocent patsy. Without
> > benefit of hindsight, the conspirators would expect him to go outside with
> > the other TSBD employees or be in a position where he was seen by other
> > employees. In either case, he would have had a solid alibi.
>
> > But perhaps, he was another kind of patsy.
>
> > If Oswald took part in the attack, then doesn't it make sense that he
> > would be told to meet up later with his co-conspirators? And in fact, at
> > the time that he was approached by officer Tippit, he was on a direct
> > course to Jack Ruby's apartment, as this map clearly demonstrates.
>
> >http://www.jfkhistory.com/pix/mapruby.gif
>
> > If that was the case, then the others knew the general path that Oswald
> > would take, to get there. It would have been easy for Tippit to intercept
> > him.
>
> > It has never made sense that Tippit would have randomly chosen to stop
> > Oswald, who was far from the scene of the assassination and did not match
> > the description that Brennon gave to the police.
>
> > And after he was stopped, why couldn't Oswald have cooly talked his way
> > out of the situation, as he did at the depository? After all, Tippit had
> > absolutely no reason to suspect him at that point.
>
> Minor correction. Of course, Oswald didn't talk when he was spotted at the
> depository, but he certainly remained calm and cool, even after Baker had
> drawn his gun.
Yah, not even a "Whats this all about?" from Oswald. Of course he
might have made the connection between a cop in the TSBD and the
murder he had just committed.
BTW, Baker didn`t draw his gun on Oswald, it was already out.
> It makes no sense that Tippit could have provoked him to draw his weapon
> unless Tippit said something that was very provocative.
Tippit was an obstacle to Oswald`s next goal of taking another crack
at Walker.
> Robert Harris
Robert
> It makes no sense to imagine Oswald being an innocent patsy. Without
> benefit of hindsight, the conspirators would expect him to go outside with
> the other TSBD employees or be in a position where he was seen by other
> employees. In either case, he would have had a solid alibi.
>
> But perhaps, he was another kind of patsy.
>
> If Oswald took part in the attack, then doesn't it make sense that he
> would be told to meet up later with his co-conspirators?
LHO could simply have been doing what he was told to do which was to
stay by a phone. He could have believed based on what he was told
that a "fake" assassination attempt was going to to take place so they
could blame Castro for it and invade Cuba. Who knows, and really it
does NOT matter as he was accused of being the shooter of JFK, JBC and
JDT and there is NO evidence that shows this to be the case upon cross-
examination.
> And in fact, at
> the time that he was approached by officer Tippit, he was on a direct
> course to Jack Ruby's apartment, as this map clearly demonstrates.
It was also a neighborhood JDT was in so much many thought he lived
there too!
> http://www.jfkhistory.com/pix/mapruby.gif
>
> If that was the case, then the others knew the general path that Oswald
> would take, to get there. It would have been easy for Tippit to intercept
> him.
Some have posited that it was JDT's task to kill LHO "in-flight" IF
Ruby blew the chance at the TSBD. Maybe, but we won't ever know for
sure.
> It has never made sense that Tippit would have randomly chosen to stop
> Oswald, who was far from the scene of the assassination and did not match
> the description that Brennon gave to the police.
It also makes no sense that the DPD doctored their own transcripts to
show JDT was ordered there in the first place when he was not. It is
called CYA.
> And after he was stopped, why couldn't Oswald have cooly talked his way
> out of the situation, as he did at the depository? After all, Tippit had
> absolutely no reason to suspect him at that point.
YOU are assuming LHO was even there, and this is a bad thing to do
with the eyewitness testimony we have. Furthermore, the WC and no
subsequent government body has ever shown us HOW LHO managed this feat
IF he did. They gave a claim of him doing things that got him there
but when folks were asked along the routes IF they saw him they could
NOT find one person who said yes, we saw him. These houses were
filled with stay-at-home moms and retired folks too so it wasn't like
he was walking through a deserted area.
It is dangerous to agree with a claim when there is NO evidence that
will support it upon cross-examination.
> The only logical answer is that Tippit knew exactly who he was looking for
> and knew the path he would be traveling. And he had a tragically big
> mouth, letting Oswald know what his plans for him were.
Sorry, there is another logical answer as well. JDT was killed to do
two things IMO, keep his mouth shut and to make LHO look even guiltier
(a third could be for failure to do what he was supposed to do - kill
LHO). Maybe it was the first and the second was a benefit, who
knows. IF I was a betting man I would say it was Roscoe White who was
riding with JDT looking for LHO and when they couldn't find him they
got into a heated disagreement and White popped him. OR White was
told to do this from the beginning, we will never know for sure at
this point. The main point is JDT was caught with his pistol in his
holster so IT HAD TO BE SOMEONE HE TRUSTED WHO KILLED HIM! It is like
when the police find NO forced entry into a house or apartment where a
crime was committed, they always say the person knew the attacker/
raper/killer/burgular, etc... because they either were let in or had a
key or some other kind of access (based on the fact NO windows were
wide open of course).
> There is no doubt that Ruby knew Tippit. He simply told him where to look
> for Oswald and expected the cop to do the job that he would ultimately get
> stuck with.
There is NO evidence that will stand up to scrutiny showing LHO was
anywhere near where the WC said he was when JDT was killed. LHO was
heading for a safe meeting place too (TT) instead of getting out of
town so we know there was someone or some group guiding him in these
times.
WBurg...@aol.com
> In article
> <reharris1-8FB349.00594530062...@70-3-168-216.pools.spcsdns.net>,
>
> - Show quoted text -
There is no doubt Oswald was told something by someone and, correct me
if I'm wrong, but wasn't he hanging around the payphone for a while,
one assumes "awaiting instructions?" And isn't a fact that agents
diring this time period would meet in afternoon movie
theaters...regularly uncrowded...to have clandestine meetings ("If
anything happens go to the theater.") According to Summers, Fritz said
he had never seen anyone so cool under the circumstances as Lee
Oswald, as if he had been professionally trained to resist
interrogation. Remember, this young man was 24 years old. Think about
that. And his phraseology seems to be almost like code:.... I'm a
Marxist-Leninist (message to handlers, my cover has not been blown),
"I'm a patsy".... (I have been set up) and I ask someone to come
forward for me....(I need help)... all this fits with a naive yet
sophisticated kid who got involved in some undercover work of some
kind and was trying to get help without blowing his cover.
And remember when Hosty asked him about Mexico City, Oswald's
response.... "How'd you know about that?".... may have been the first
time he dropped his "mask." Things to consider.
Burgundy
markusp
I have difficulty accepting that Oswald was an innocent patsy either.
If he was involved to some degree in an operation concerning JFK's
presence in Dallas, this then allows for some quite plausible
explanations as to his movements, the decision to retrieve a pistol,
his failure to cooperate with interrogators, etc. A friend of mine
characterizes LHO as a "snotty little bastard", and I agree. He
certainly was not the loyal patriot that Garrison painted him out to
be. Thanks, Robert! Respectfully,
~Mark
aaronhi...@yahoo.com
> would be told to meet up later with his co-conspirators? And in fact, at
> the time that he was approached by officer Tippit, he was on a direct
> course to Jack Ruby's apartment, as this map clearly demonstrates.
>
> http://www.jfkhistory.com/pix/mapruby.gif
But Ruby was at Parkland Hospital. I believe Seth Kantor, not the WC.
> If that was the case, then the others knew the general path that Oswald
> would take, to get there. It would have been easy for Tippit to intercept
> him.
The "plot" was to shoot at JFK, frame LHO, and thus goad JFK into
invading Cuba. Everyone was in on it (Ruby, DPD, etc.) Except that
the plotters really planned to kill JFK. And leave LHO holding the
bag.
> It has never made sense that Tippit would have randomly chosen to stop
> Oswald, who was far from the scene of the assassination and did not match
> the description that Brennon gave to the police.
The number of witnesses who say that Tippit's killer didn't look like
LHO, and the number of witnesses who saw more than one person, make me
wonder if LHO was there at all.
> There is no doubt that Ruby knew Tippit. He simply told him where to look
> for Oswald and expected the cop to do the job that he would ultimately get
> stuck with.
Ruby knew most of the Cops in Dallas.
Aaron Hirshberg
Robert Harris
Myers "theory" that Oswald did an about-face as Tippit approached him is
just stupid and even Bugliosi disagrees with it.
Several years ago I went through an extensive debate with Myers and
Reitzes on Myers theory that Oswald was walking in the opposite direction
than the WC claimed when he was stopped. Of course, he needs that last
minute turnaround to support his theory.
He kept claiming that he had witness support for his argument but over and
over again, refused to post citations. Finally, he disappeared from the
group and left poor Reitzes to post his citations for him, but almost
every one of them said the guy they saw, was NOT Oswald.
Oswald was not stupid and he changed clothes at his rooming house. He knew
that no cops would be able to identify him on the street, so why would he
panic and do something that would practically beg Tippit to stop him?
That just didn't happen and not a single witness said that Oswald turned
around.
Robert Harris
In article
<e87f4b88-6b02-48f1...@t13g2000yqt.googlegroups.com>,
yeuhd <Needle...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "Ah?no."
> "Okay, could you wait right there?"
> Tippit gets out of his car?
Anthony Marsh
>> If Oswald took part in the attack, then doesn't it make sense that he
>> would be told to meet up later with his co-conspirators? And in fact, at
>> the time that he was approached by officer Tippit, he was on a direct
>> course to Jack Ruby's apartment, as this map clearly demonstrates.
>>
>> http://www.jfkhistory.com/pix/mapruby.gif
>
> But Ruby was at Parkland Hospital. I believe Seth Kantor, not the WC.
>
>> If that was the case, then the others knew the general path that Oswald
>> would take, to get there. It would have been easy for Tippit to intercept
>> him.
>
> The "plot" was to shoot at JFK, frame LHO, and thus goad JFK into
You think the plan was not to kill JFK but merely frighten him a little
so that he could invade Cuba? But he had already refused to do so many
times even when Cuba was a very real threat with nuclear weapons.
> invading Cuba. Everyone was in on it (Ruby, DPD, etc.) Except that
> the plotters really planned to kill JFK. And leave LHO holding the
> bag.
>
Well, you just said shoot at to make JFK invade Cuba. Now you say kill.
Which is it?
Are you saying the plan was to only miss and not even hit JFK, but
someone slipped up and hit him by accident? Thanks, that is the new
theory of the Century.
tomnln
Name the exact Officer who took that description from the witness?
"yeuhd" <Needle...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:e87f4b88-6b02-48f1...@t13g2000yqt.googlegroups.com...
tomnln
SEE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/lho.htm
"markusp" <marki...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:b552482a-175a-4aa8...@o6g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
Robert Harris
<dfc79ce7-37a3-4c4d...@i6g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>,
"aaronhi...@yahoo.com" <aaronhi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > If Oswald took part in the attack, then doesn't it make sense that he
> > would be told to meet up later with his co-conspirators? And in fact, at
> > the time that he was approached by officer Tippit, he was on a direct
> > course to Jack Ruby's apartment, as this map clearly demonstrates.
> >
> > http://www.jfkhistory.com/pix/mapruby.gif
>
> But Ruby was at Parkland Hospital. I believe Seth Kantor, not the WC.
Yes, but that doesn't matter. Ruby wouldn't have to be home for him to
have his people meet up there.
And he probably didn't expect Oswald to make it anyway.
>
> > If that was the case, then the others knew the general path that Oswald
> > would take, to get there. It would have been easy for Tippit to intercept
> > him.
>
> The "plot" was to shoot at JFK, frame LHO, and thus goad JFK into
> invading Cuba. Everyone was in on it (Ruby, DPD, etc.) Except that
> the plotters really planned to kill JFK. And leave LHO holding the
> bag.
Framing an unwitting and innocent Oswald would be infinitely more
difficult than recruiting him.
Watch my two Youtube vids on Oswald, part 1 and 2 and see if you don't
agree that he was the crazy, fanatical anti-communist that I think he
was.
The simple fact that he tried to kill himself when his assignment in
Moscow fell through, should be enough to make that clear.
>
> > It has never made sense that Tippit would have randomly chosen to stop
> > Oswald, who was far from the scene of the assassination and did not match
> > the description that Brennon gave to the police.
>
> The number of witnesses who say that Tippit's killer didn't look like
> LHO, and the number of witnesses who saw more than one person, make me
> wonder if LHO was there at all.
Yes, I know there is controversy about that. But the notion that Oswald
just coincidentally came upon the scene of a cop getting murdered, seems
like quite a stretch.
It seems to me that it would have been easy for witnesses who weren't
paying particular attention prior to the shooting, to mistake which man
actually approached the car.
Robert Harris
Anthony Marsh
> It makes no sense to imagine Oswald being an innocent patsy. Without
> benefit of hindsight, the conspirators would expect him to go outside with
> the other TSBD employees or be in a position where he was seen by other
> employees. In either case, he would have had a solid alibi.
>
SO what if he had a solid alibi? Lots of other innocent people have had
solid alibis and still were framed by authorities? Oswald was in the
Domino room with a couple of the black workers. They could be made to
change their stories.
yeuhd
> All the evidence shows
> he was there very earlier and engaged in lots of activities, and have
> been time-wise corroborated by two, Jack Davis, and Butch Burroughs as
> being a good 20-30 minutes before the arrest in the main part of the
> theater.
"All the evidence"? Both Johnny C. Brewer and Julia Postal saw Oswald in
front of the Texas Theater, and Brewer saw him enter it. Brewer said he
had first seen Oswald outside his shoe store about 1:30 p.m., where Oswald
acted suspiciously as a police car went by. Brewer followed him to the
nearby Texas Theater and saw him enter without buying a ticket. Brewer
went into the theater and asked Butch Burroughs at the concession stand if
he had seen the man come in. Burroughs said he had been busy and had not
seen him. After they checked to see if they exit doors were secure, Brewer
had Postal call the police. The police radio call about a suspect at the
Texas Theater went out at 1:45 p.m. Brewer identified Oswald for the
police when they arrived.
Affidavit of Johnny C. Brewer:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/brewer1.htm
WC testimony of Johnny C. Brewer:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/brewer_j.htm
WC testimony of Julia Postal:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/postal.htm
Warren "Butch" Burroughs testified to the Warren Commission in April 1964,
and said nothing about seeing Oswald enter the theater, or that he
recognized Oswald as he was brought out under arrest. Years later he
"remembered" seeing Oswald in the theater earlier. Jack Davis came forth
years after the assassination, and he has not offered any evidence beyond
his own claim that he was at the Texas Theater.
Who are the better set of witnesses?
yeuhd
> There is NO evidence that will stand up to scrutiny showing LHO was
> anywhere near where the WC said he was when JDT was killed.
Police lineup identification by eyewitness Helen Markham, who saw
Oswald shoot Tippit. Police lineup identification by eyewitness
Virginia Davis, who saw Oswald cut across her front yard as he held a
gun open shortly after she heard the shots. Police lineup
identification by eyewitnesses Ted Callaway and Sam Guinyard, who
heard the shots from a block away and saw Oswald coming south on
Patton with a gun in his hand.
Those four eyewitnesses form an unbroken chain of Oswald shooting
Tippit on 10th Street and fleeing down Patton to Jefferson with a gun
in his hand.
None of those four had seen any photograph of Oswald before they made
their lineup identifications on Nov. 22 or early morning of the 23.
All of them were certain of their identification of Oswald without
hesitation.
Then there is the physical evidence. All bullet cartridges found at
the scene had been fired from the gun found on Oswald at his arrest.
yeuhd
> There is no doubt Oswald was told something by someone and, correct me
> if I'm wrong, but wasn't he hanging around the payphone for a while,
> one assumes "awaiting instructions?"
No.
> And isn't a fact that agents
> diring this time period would meet in afternoon movie
> theaters...regularly uncrowded...to have clandestine meetings ("If
> anything happens go to the theater.")
Only in crime novels.
yeuhd
> Name the exact witness who gave that description?
>
> Name the exact Officer who took that description from the witness?
>
I've already answered that question for you several times. In any
case, that issue is irrelevant to THIS discussion. The question HERE
is why Tippit stopped Oswald. What is relevant is that that
description of the suspect — from whomever — was broadcast three times
over police radio before Tippit stopped Oswald.
yeuhd
> Myers "theory" that Oswald did an about-face as Tippit approached him is
> just stupid and even Bugliosi disagrees with it.
>
> Several years ago I went through an extensive debate with Myers and
> Reitzes on Myers theory that Oswald was walking in the opposite direction
> than the WC claimed when he was stopped. Of course, he needs that last
> minute turnaround to support his theory.
>
> He kept claiming that he had witness support for his argument but over and
> over again, refused to post citations. Finally, he disappeared from the
> group and left poor Reitzes to post his citations for him, but almost
> every one of them said the guy they saw, was NOT Oswald.
Jimmy Burt saw a man walk west on 10th. Although Burt didn’t see the
shooting, and said he could not
identify the man, he did say that after he heard the shots he saw this
same man running away from the squad car south on Patton. (HSCA Record
180-10091-10288, Transcript of taped interview of Jimmy Burt by Al
Chapman on February 7, 1968, pp. 1–3, 6, 8–9. A copy of the audio
recording of the interview is also held by the National Archives.)
Bricklayer William Lawrence Smith, after being shown photos of Oswald,
felt sure that Oswald was the man he saw walking westward by him on
10th Street a few minutes before the Tippit shooting occurred.
See: Commission Document 329, Gemberling Report, p. 83, Interview of
William Lawrence Smith by FBI Special Agent William G. Brookhart on
January 11, 1964:
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10730&relPageId=86
Could you present evidence where these two men affirmatively said that
the person each saw walking west on 10th was *not* Oswald? Because
those are the two witnesses whom Dale K. Myers cites for his
hypothesis that Oswald had been walking west on 10th.
yeuhd
> And after he was stopped, why couldn't Oswald have cooly talked his way
> out of the situation, as he did at the depository? After all, Tippit had
> absolutely no reason to suspect him at that point.
Oswald didn't exactly behave cool and calm and talk his way out of the
situation when officers approached him in the Texas Theater, did he?
He pulled out his gun and tried to shoot one of them.
And Tippit had "absolutely no reason to suspect" Oswald on 10th? To
start, how about that Oswald fit the description of the TSBD shooter
broadcast three times over the police radio?
curtjester1
Mine obviously. Postal said they had to tell Burroughs what to
believe because it didn't jive with what 'reality' was thus denying
Burroughs' thoughts of seeing him pass through (earlier). Be that as
it may, nobody saw a person come through and come in the main theater
and sit which would have been the soon to be arrested Oswald.
Nobody. Postal said he went upstairs, and so did Brewer and I believe
Burroughs in chase. He certainly didn't go by Burroughs at that late
time to get to the main part of the theater. Hence, when the police
arrived, they went up the stairs, and in testimony in No More Silence
by Sneed from DPD Courson, he confronts a man he identifies as "Lee
Harvey Oswald" on the stairs smoking a cigarette, and then gets told
to back off since a hollared, "we got our man" comes from the main
floor area. The public isn't told about the arrest record of the
suspect Oswald in the balcony which is an official police report, nor
does it speak of the detainment of that person into the adjacent alley
into a police vehicle told by the next door shop owner, Bernard Haire
over 25 years later. Haire assumed that the arrest was in the alley
all those years and not the one where Oswald was brought out in the
front of the theater.
And when the all the years passed, investigators were able to track
down Davis, and Burroughs and get a much more detailed, and concise
explanation to events that day, which dispelled the timelines
completely, and showed many more events take place which were never
part of the record. Now we know TSBD was there very early, watching
the credits of the movie before the movie started which in itself was
25 minutes before the one who sneaked in, and sat next to numerous
people, and who bought popcorn on a visit to the lobby from the a trip
from the main room seating area.
CJ
Sandy McCroskey
"more detailed and concise"
Do you know what "concise" means?
Robert
It lacked any clothing, thus, please tell us how such a basic description
that could fit thousands of men in Dallas would alert JDT that he was
looking at the killer of JFK. Also, the scene of the JDT shooting was
miles from the scene of the JFK assassination, so again, why would he
suspect the alleged killer would be way out there. Then explain why JDT
was there in the first place when he was NOT assigned to the area.
Furthermore, IF you continue to assert it was LHO and JDT believed he was
the killer of JFK, please explain why JDT never got his pistol out of the
holster for us.
Thanks!
yeuhd
> Postal said he went upstairs, and so did Brewer and I believe
> Burroughs in chase.
Julia Postal said no such thing. How could Julia Postal know where
Oswald went inside the building if (a) she was outside in the box
office, and (b) she never saw him enter the building?
Julia Postal *speculated* that Oswald was able to get past Butch
Burroughs unseen, and end up on the main floor, by going through the
balcony:
Mr. BALL. Why didn't Warren Burroughs see him get in, get in there? Do
you have any idea?
Mrs. POSTAL. We talked about that, and the concession stand is along
here, and if he came in on the other end, which we summarized that is
what Oswald did, because the steps, immediately as you open the door
there. It has been done before with kids trying to sneak in, run right
on up in the balcony.
. . . .
Mr. BALL. He was arrested, though, down in the orchestra, the second
row from the —
Mrs. POSTAL. Third.
Mr. BALL. Third?
Mrs. POSTAL. Three rows down, five seats over.
Mr. BALL. I was trying to say the third row. How could he get from the
balcony down there?
Mrs. POSTAL. Oh, that is very easy. You can go up in the balcony and
right straight down, those steps come back down, and that would bring
you into it. He wouldn't have to go by Butch at all.
Johnny Brewer also said no such thing. How could Johnny Brewer know
where Oswald went inside the theater if Brewer remained outside the
theater as Oswald entered? Not until after Brewer had talked to Postal
about Oswald's entry did Brewer enter the theater.
Mr. BELIN. How many patrons were in the theatre at that time?
Mr. BREWER. I couldn't really tell. There weren't many, but it was
dark and we couldn't see how many people were in there. There were 15
or 20, I would say, at the most, upstairs and downstairs.
Mr. BELIN. Together, 15 or 20?
Mr. BREWER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Then you went upstairs. Did you see him upstairs?
Mr. BREWER. No; I couldn't see anything upstairs.
Mr. BELIN. Did you hear any noises there?
Mr. BREWER. When we first went down to the exit by the stage, we heard
a seat pop up, but couldn't see anybody. And we never did see him. But
we went back and upstairs and checked, and we came down and went back
to the box office and told Julia that we hadn't seen him.
. . . . .
Mr. BELIN. Then what happened?
Mr. BREWER. Well, just before they came. they turned the house lights
on, and I looked out from the curtains and saw the man.
Mr. BELIN. Where was he when you saw him?
Mr. BREWER. He was in the center section about six or seven rows, from
the back, toward the back.
What do you mean by "Burroughs in chase"?
> He certainly didn't go by Burroughs at that late
> time to get to the main part of the theater.
To the contrary, Burroughs himself speculated that Oswald got to the
main floor of the theater via the balcony stairs:
Mr. BALL. Did you see that man come in the theatre?
Mr. BURROUGHS. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL. Do you have any idea what you were doing when he came in?
Mr. BURROUGHS. Well, I was — I had a lot of stock candy to count and
put in the candy case for the coming night, and if he had came around
in front of the concession out there, I would have seen him, even
though I was bent down, I would have seen him, but otherwise I think
he sneaked up the stairs real fast.
Mr. BALL. Up to the balcony?
Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes, sir — first, I think he was up there.
Mr. BALL. At least there was a stairway there?
Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes, there was two.
Mr. BALL. Is there a stairway near the entry?
Mr. BURROUGHS. Of the door — yes. Yes, it goes straight — you come
through the door and go straight — you go upstairs to the balcony.
Dave Yandell
>
> And when the all the years passed, investigators were able to track
> down Davis, and Burroughs and get a much more detailed, and concise
> explanation to events that day, which dispelled the timelines
> completely, and showed many more events take place which were never
> part of the record. Now we know TSBD was there very early, watching
> the credits of the movie before the movie started which in itself was
> 25 minutes before the one who sneaked in, and sat next to numerous
> people, and who bought popcorn on a visit to the lobby from the a trip
> from the main room seating area.
Er, the Depository watched the credits in the theater?
???
Dave
Robert Harris
<91164d3f-755b-41ce...@i6g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>,
yeuhd <Needle...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jul 1, 11:34�pm, Robert Harris <reharr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Myers "theory" that Oswald did an about-face as Tippit approached him is
> > just stupid and even Bugliosi disagrees with it.
> >
> > Several years ago I went through an extensive debate with Myers and
> > Reitzes on Myers theory that Oswald was walking in the opposite direction
> > than the WC claimed when he was stopped. Of course, he needs that last
> > minute turnaround to support his theory.
> >
> > He kept claiming that he had witness support for his argument but over and
> > over again, refused to post citations. Finally, he disappeared from the
> > group and left poor Reitzes to post his citations for him, but almost
> > every one of them said the guy they saw, was NOT Oswald.
>
>
> Jimmy Burt saw a man walk west on 10th. Although Burt didn�t see the
> shooting, and said he could not
> identify the man, he did say that after he heard the shots he saw this
> same man running away from the squad car south on Patton.
Gosh, someone was running away after the shots went off?? Do you suppose
there were LOTS of people running away?
And even though Burt saw him both before and after the shooting, he
could not confirm that it was Oswald??
You get zero points for Burt.
> (HSCA Record
> 180-10091-10288, Transcript of taped interview of Jimmy Burt by Al
> Chapman on February 7, 1968, pp. 1�3, 6, 8�9. A copy of the audio
> recording of the interview is also held by the National Archives.)
>
> Bricklayer William Lawrence Smith, after being shown photos of Oswald,
> felt sure that Oswald was the man he saw walking westward by him on
> 10th Street a few minutes before the Tippit shooting occurred.
Funny that he had to be shown pictures, eh? Do you suppose he hadn't
seen Oswald a hundred times on television and in the papers?
And are you aware that Smith also said he saw this guy "a few minutes
after 1:00 pm"? And that Oswald's landlady saw the real Oswald, standing
at the bustop about a mile from the murder scene at 1:04PM?
There's just no way the guy Smith saw was Oswald.
>
> See: Commission Document 329, Gemberling Report, p. 83, Interview of
> William Lawrence Smith by FBI Special Agent William G. Brookhart on
> January 11, 1964:
> http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10730&relPag
> eId=86
>
> Could you present evidence where these two men affirmatively said that
> the person each saw walking west on 10th was *not* Oswald? Because
> those are the two witnesses whom Dale K. Myers cites for his
> hypothesis that Oswald had been walking west on 10th.
Those witnesses are worthless. Burt saw an unidentified guy before the
shooting and saw him running away after the shooting, which certainly
proves that the man had good sense, but not that he was Oswald. BTW, can
you cite Burt claiming that he saw a gun in this man's hand??
Whoever Smith saw, just after 1PM could not have been Oswald either.
You LNers make careers out of telling us how terrible witnesses are. Why
would you try to make your case on one witness who never said he saw
Oswald and another who thought he saw Oswald at an impossible time and
place?
Any more witnesses?
Robert Harris
yeuhd
> It lacked any clothing, thus, please tell us how such a basic description
> that could fit thousands of men in Dallas would alert JDT that he was
> looking at the killer of JFK.
Thousands of men weren't walking through the Oak Cliff area that
Tippit was in. And you're attributing a much greater level of
certainty ("looking at the killer of JFK") than we can know about what
Tippit thought as he stopped to question Oswald.
> Also, the scene of the JDT shooting was
> miles from the scene of the JFK assassination, so again, why would he
> suspect the alleged killer would be way out there.
Killers generally try to get away from the site of the killing, no? It
had been about 45 minutes since the assassination; 10th & Patton is
only a six minute drive from the TSBD at Elm & Houston. It wasn't "way
out there".
> Then explain why JDT
> was there in the first place when he was NOT assigned to the area.
Tippit certainly was assigned to Oak Cliff that afternoon.
12:45 p.m.
DISPATCHER (MURRAY J. JACKSON): [Units] 87, 78, move into central Oak
Cliff area.
78 (J.D. TIPPIT): I'm about Kiest and Bonnie View.
87 (RONALD C. NELSON): 87's going north on Marsalis at R. L.
Thornton.
12:54 p.m.
DISPATCHER: 78.
78: 78.
DISPATCHER: You are in the Oak Cliff area, are you not?
78: Lancaster and Eighth.
DISPATCHER: You will be at large for any emergency that comes in.
78: 10-4.
http://www.billdrenas.com/articles/dpd01-00.pdf
From the Warren Commission Testimony of Dallas police Chief Jesse
Curry:
Mr. DULLES. Was Tippit at the time he was killed on a regular assigned
assignment or was he just roving in a particular area?
Mr. CURRY. On this particular day, now he had been assigned to Oak
Cliff for several months farther out than he was, but when this
incident occurred at the Texas School Book Depository, this is
customary policy in the police department if something happens on this
district and tying up several squads that the squads from the other
district automatically move in in a position where they can cover off
or something else might happen here, much the same as fire equipment
does, this is automatic.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you explain that further?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; say two squads were to get a call in an area, and
this area here, say they had a big fire or something, they brought two
or three squads in here from adjoining districts, then automatically
these squads out in these other areas would begin to cover off or get
in a position to where if instead of staying out here on the far side
of this district, they would perhaps move into this district right
here where they could answer here, here or over into here. This is
just automatic patrol policy.
. . . .
Mr. CURRY. And the dispatcher told him, "You will be at large for any
emergency that comes in." In other words, he was one of the remaining
squads in Oak Cliff that was in service.
Mr. DULLES. What does that mean, scout around the area?
Mr. CURRY. Anywhere in that central area, Oak Cliff.
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh4/html/WC_Vol4_0094a.htm
> Furthermore, IF you continue to assert it was LHO and JDT believed he was
> the killer of JFK
I *don't* assert that Tippit thought anything as conclusive. But you
have, twice. Oswald fit a general description. There is no crime in
fitting a general description. There was something about Oswald's
words, appearance, or demeanor that made Tippit want to check out
Oswald further, but not enough at that point for Tippit to want to
pull his gun on him.
yeuhd
> > Jimmy Burt saw a man walk west on 10th. Although Burt didn¹t see the
> > shooting, and said he could not
> > identify the man, he did say that after he heard the shots he saw this
> > same man running away from the squad car south on Patton.
>
> Gosh, someone was running away after the shots went off?? Do you suppose
> there were LOTS of people running away?
No, there was only one person whom eyewitnesses described as running
away from the squad car and going south on Patton right after the
shots were fired. Just one. You know his name.
> > Bricklayer William Lawrence Smith, after being shown photos of Oswald,
> > felt sure that Oswald was the man he saw walking westward by him on
> > 10th Street a few minutes before the Tippit shooting occurred.
>
> Funny that he had to be shown pictures, eh? Do you suppose he hadn't
> seen Oswald a hundred times on television and in the papers?
Please quote where the FBI report said Smith "had to be shown"
pictures.
> And are you aware that Smith also said he saw this guy "a few minutes
> after 1:00 pm"?
Please quote from the FBI report where Smith said he saw Oswald "a few
minutes after 1:00 p.m." In fact, the report says, "[Smith] said that
he left the job and went to lunch, exact time unrecalled, and notice a
man walking west on 10th Street."
> And that Oswald's landlady saw the real Oswald, standing
> at the bustop about a mile from the murder scene at 1:04PM?
You are confusing Oswald's landlady, Gladys Johnson, with her
housekeeper, Earlene Roberts. Mrs. Roberts at no time said she looked
at a watch or a clock to note when Oswald came in or left. In fact,
she testified that when Oswald came in she was trying to adjust a
television set to watch the news of the assassination. When asked the
approximate time Oswald came in, she answered, "it must have been
AROUND 1 o'clock, or MAYBE a little after", but then concluded, "what
time I wouldn't want to say."
Those who want to place Oswald away from the Tippit shooting site
always seem to forget her words "around" and "maybe" and most
importantly, her nullifying conclusion, "what time I wouldn't want to
say."
curtjester1
TSBD Oswald. Didn't edit there. I try to distinguish between the
TSBD Oswald and Lee Oswald. Lee Oswald seen by witnesses to the
Tippit killing 3 to 4 minutes east of the killing site prior. Where
that murderer was seen was only about 2 blocks from Ruby's place, and
the barber down there was quite adamant that it was Oswald that passed
his shop. There is no way that a TSBD Oswald could have left the
roominghouse and walked to the Tippit murder scene in time. I walked
it at a good clip and it took me 13.5 minutes. If that Oswald were to
continue and go to where he was sighted, the 'round trip' from the
Tippit murder scene would have been another 8 minutes. TSBD Oswald
couldn't have committed the Tippit murder.
CJ
curtjester1
>
> - Show quoted text -
Do you know *ANYTHING* about the JFK case?
CJ
curtjester1
> On Jul 2, 4:06 pm, curtjester1 <curtjest...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Postal said he went upstairs, and so did Brewer and I believe
> > Burroughs in chase.
>
> Julia Postal said no such thing. How could Julia Postal know where
> Oswald went inside the building if (a) she was outside in the box
> office, and (b) she never saw him enter the building?
>
she said he walked past her, then she said later he didn't. Then she
said she saw him go him as he was meeting the manager Callahan on the
way out, then she said she didn't see him go in. She said in her
testimony that Burroughs saw him go in, then she 'kidded' him, and
then he said well at least I saw him go out. Obviously something was
awry since she radioed the police stating that he was in the balcony
and directed them as such.
When Postal was interviewed prior to the WC testimony it was quite
different as you can see from the Probe 1998 Jan-Feb article:
The Texas Theater
Researcher Jones Harris interviewed Julia Postal in 1963. When Harris
asked Julia Postal if she had sold a ticket to "Oswald" (the man
arrested), she burst into tears and left the room. A short time later
Harris again asked Postal if she sold a ticket to "Oswald" and got the
same response. From Postal's refusal to answer this question and her
reaction to same, Harris believes that Postal did sell "Oswald" a
theater ticket. On February 29, 1964 Postal told FBI Agent Arthur
Carter "she was unable to recall whether or not he bought a
ticket." (A few months later, when the Warren Report was issued,
Postal's memory had improved. She was now certain the man did not buy
a ticket. See page 178 of the report.)
Butch Burroughs, an employee of the Texas Theater, heard someone enter
the theater shortly after 1:00 PM and go to the balcony. Harvey Oswald
had apparently entered the theater and gone to the balcony without
being seen by Burroughs. About 1:15 PM Harvey came down from the
balcony and bought popcorn from Burroughs. Burroughs watched him walk
down the aisle and take a seat on the main floor. He sat next to Jack
Davis during the opening credits of the first movie, several minutes
before 1:20 PM. Harvey then moved across the aisle and sat next to
another man. A few minutes later Davis noticed he moved again and sat
next to a pregnant woman. Just before the police arrived, the pregnant
woman went to the balcony and was never seen again. In addition to
Harvey there were seven people watching the movie on the main level
(six after the pregnant woman left). Within 10 minutes, he had sat
next to half of them.
End of article.
It should be noted too that Brewer would have been too far behind to
see anyone ducking in, and there was no brown shirt description by him
until two weeks after the assassination. IOW, there was lots of times
to get a 'palitable' story down before the WC testimony time came.
It's obvious with the arrest of the man in the balcony (which
described the Tippit murder suspect much better); and the revelations
of Davis and an 'honest' Burroughs, and the concise (for Sandy)
testimony of Courson dealing with the Oswald on the stairway leading
into the balcony, and the subsequent dealing of him by Bernard Haire,
there is much more to the patsying of Oswald, than the 'canned' public
given story indicated.
CJ
Anthony Marsh
Gee, it's no fun at all when you won't let Harris misquote the
witnesses. You have the temerity to actually read and quote the
witnesses to correct his misinformation. How rude.
Anthony Marsh
> On Jul 3, 12:12 am, Robert<robcap...@netscape.com> wrote:
>> It lacked any clothing, thus, please tell us how such a basic description
>> that could fit thousands of men in Dallas would alert JDT that he was
>> looking at the killer of JFK.
>
> Thousands of men weren't walking through the Oak Cliff area that
> Tippit was in. And you're attributing a much greater level of
I like your style of reasoning. Oswald was the only person walking in
Oak Cliff, therefore he must have just killed the President. Oswald was
the only left hander who owned a Mannlicher-Carcano in Dallas, therefore
he must be the assassin. Etc.
> certainty ("looking at the killer of JFK") than we can know about what
> Tippit thought as he stopped to question Oswald.
>
>> Also, the scene of the JDT shooting was
>> miles from the scene of the JFK assassination, so again, why would he
>> suspect the alleged killer would be way out there.
>
> Killers generally try to get away from the site of the killing, no? It
Not always. Some are let go by the police. Some pretend to be the police
to get away. Some have a CIA get out of jail free card.
> had been about 45 minutes since the assassination; 10th& Patton is
> only a six minute drive from the TSBD at Elm& Houston. It wasn't "way
yeuhd
> There is no way that a TSBD Oswald could have left the
> roominghouse and walked to the Tippit murder scene in time. I walked
> it at a good clip and it took me 13.5 minutes.
11 minutes 10 seconds, done on camera:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15fRNaFQczc
Domingo Benavides is first heard trying to use the police radio at
1:16 p.m., and he said he had waited in his truck "a few minutes"
after the shooting to make sure the shooter was gone; let's say 2 to 3
minutes. Allow him another minute to approach Tippit's body before
trying to use the radio. Which means the shooting would have occurred
about 1:12 to 1:14 p.m.
yeuhd
> On 7/3/2009 9:54 AM, yeuhd wrote:
>
> > On Jul 3, 12:12 am, Robert<robcap...@netscape.com> wrote:
> >> It lacked any clothing, thus, please tell us how such a basic description
> >> that could fit thousands of men in Dallas would alert JDT that he was
> >> looking at the killer of JFK.
>
> > Thousands of men weren't walking through the Oak Cliff area that
> > Tippit was in. And you're attributing a much greater level of
>
> I like your style of reasoning. Oswald was the only person walking in
> Oak Cliff, therefore he must have just killed the President.
But I never said that, did I? Strawman argument. Those words,
"therefore he must have just killed the President", are your words,
not mine. I never said Tippit thought, "There's the guy that killed
the President."
What I did say was that Oswald met the general description of the
suspect that was broadcast over police radio. That is not a crime, nor
is walking around Oak Cliff. But something about Oswald's appearance,
demeanor, or something he said to Tippit made Tippit decide to
investigate further.
Peter Fokes
Had sharp-eyed Tippitt investigated any other pedestrian after the
assassination that day? Granted he only had a few minutes to stop
anyone before Oswald shot him dead.
Tippit reported that he was in central Oak Cliff at 12:54 pm. Of
course that left very little time for J.D. to notice any other
suspicious character. Imagine if he had stopped another person and
let them him/her go BEFORE encountering Oswald. And imagine that
encounter had been duly reported by the first suspect. Would there
still be so many questions about the Tippit-Oswald meeting?
"Bang bang, he shot me down
Bang bang, I hit the ground
Bang bang, that awful sound"
(Nancy Sinatra, Bang Bang, He Shot Me Down)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5Xl0Qry-hA
Was it Robert Oswald who said his kid brother enjoyed pointing his
index fingers at people and saying "Bang, Bang"?
Regards,
Peter Fokes,
Toronto
clarkw...@charter.net
> It makes no sense to imagine Oswald being an innocent patsy. Without
> benefit of hindsight, the conspirators would expect him to go outside with
> the other TSBD employees or be in a position where he was seen by other
> employees. In either case, he would have had a solid alibi.
Obviously, Lee is not an innocent patsy. It certainly has taken a lot
of years for you to come to this point of view. No insult intended
because you at least reached it.
>
> But perhaps, he was another kind of patsy.
>
> If Oswald took part in the attack, then doesn't it make sense that he
> would be told to meet up later with his co-conspirators?
To do what? Celebrate?
Lee didn't drink.
>And in fact, at
> the time that he was approached by officer Tippit, he was on a direct
> course to Jack Ruby's apartment, as this map clearly demonstrates.
>
> http://www.jfkhistory.com/pix/mapruby.gif
All Lee's escape route shows is that he was headed south. There is no
evidence he knew Jack Ruby.
>
> If that was the case, then the others knew the general path that Oswald
> would take, to get there. It would have been easy for Tippit to intercept
> him.
>
> It has never made sense that Tippit would have randomly chosen to stop
> Oswald, who was far from the scene of the assassination and did not match
> the description that Brennon gave to the police.
No. He did not.
Some officers act on intuition though.
>
> And after he was stopped, why couldn't Oswald have cooly talked his way
> out of the situation, as he did at the depository? After all, Tippit had
> absolutely no reason to suspect him at that point.
Tippit had a gazillion times less than John McAdams.
>
> The only logical answer is that Tippit knew exactly who he was looking for
> and knew the path he would be traveling. And he had a tragically big
> mouth, letting Oswald know what his plans for him were.
Or the reverse - Lee imagined what Tippit's plans for him were and
acted.
>
> There is no doubt that Ruby knew Tippit. He simply told him where to look
> for Oswald and expected the cop to do the job that he would ultimately get
> stuck with.
I would give this a 50-50 probability. But any juror, given a 50-50
chance of probability, would have to vote "innocent".
I developed how Ruby and Tippit could have arranged for Tippit to kill
Oswald but not that they did.
Just a thought.
::Clark::
>
> Robert Harris
clarkw...@charter.net
>
> It makes no sense that Tippit could have provoked him to draw his weapon
> unless Tippit said something that was very provocative.
>
> Robert Harris- Hide quoted text -
>
He opened his car door and got out.
Whatever Lee was selling, Tippit wasn't buying.
But Tippit's behavior, outside a hunch, fails to meet an arrest
criteria. He has no reason to exit the car and pursue Oswald.
If he exited the car to kill Oswald, then he was careless.
Just a thought.
::Clark::
clarkw...@charter.net
> If Oswald didn't "match" the description broadcast three times over
> the police radio, he was close enough to it. The description said a
> white male about 5 feet 10 inches, Oswald was 5 feet 9 inches. The
> description said about 30, Oswald was 24, and with his receding
> hairline looked older. And Oswald indeed had a "slender build".
Was Lee leaving the TSBD when Tippit encountered him and carrying a
30.30 rifle?
If not, Lee matches the description no more than 100,000 other Dallas
males.
>
> And it's not unlikely that Oswald was walking fast, wherever he was
> going.
>
> Two groups of witnesses saw Oswald on 10th Street. One group saw him
> walking west (towards Patton), the other group saw him walking or
> facing east (away from Patton). Dale K. Myers makes a good case that
> Oswald may have turned around when he saw Tippit's squad car
> approaching, and began walking in the opposite direction.
>
Agreed.
>
> Hypothetical conversation:
>
> "Excuse me, do you live around here?"
> "No."
Lee did.
> "Can I ask where you were going?"
> "Just down the street to the movies."
That is where he went.
> "You turned around and started walking the other way as I drove up.
> You looked like you were in a hurry."
> Oswald shrugs.
Oz has some explaining to do.
Likewise, so does Tippit for even being where he is.
> "Do you have some I.D. on you?"
> "Ah…no."
Ah - Yes.
LHO had his choice of ID's - Lee Harvey Oswald or A, J. Hidell.
> "Okay, could you wait right there?"
> Tippit gets out of his car…
Lee walked away in the hope the confrontation was over. Tippit
decided otherwise.
Just a thought.
::Clark::
jbarge
I find it awfully hard to believe that Tippit thought he was possibly
confronting JFK's assassin without radioing in.
Tippit was a veteran on the force - what, eleven years?
It simply doesn't hold up that he is going to exit his patrol car and
confront a potentially armed Presidential murderer without radioing
in, let alone requesting back up.
I know oddities occur, especially in this case, but that just doesn't
ring true, to me at least.
clarkw...@charter.net
> Tippit, Ruby, and Oswald
> were known to eat breakfast as regulars together at a restaurant in
> Oakcliff.
They did not eat together or know each other.
>
> Tippit dropped Oswald at the theater and would have been directly able
> to go to the Top Ten Record Store. He obviously was stressed and was
> looking to call someone. Assuming he did his 'job' to that point (and
> yes being a conspirator in the JFK demise) needed to know what his
> next assignment was. He had to know of the methodology of the patsy
> they were creating with the fake or double Oswald, and knew he had to
> be accounted for. He must have known as he went to the area where he
> was. He was pulling cars over and checking them, so Tippit was
> looking frantically. He finally sees 'set-up' Oswald and confronts.
> 'Set up' Oswald is assigned to double cross Tippit and kill him and
> leave a trail of evidence where TSBD Oswald is so he can be double
> crossed as well. TSBD Oswald is waiting their for his contact as he
> goes from seat to seat...as that is the meeting place hoping to find
> someone to take him from there. At his arrest, he says it's all over
> now..and in custody..."they're going to know who I am". He knows he
> has been double crossed, and probably all the more so when he finds
> out his ride to the TSBD has been murdered.
Tippit's behavior and location is difficult to explain. But giving
rides to Oswald? - No.
>
> > It has never made sense that Tippit would have randomly chosen to stop
> > Oswald, who was far from the scene of the assassination and did not match
> > the description that Brennon gave to the police.
>
> Tippit was in a prime spot after the shooting to see Oswald coming to
> the roominghouse as he was at a spot to see cars coming from Dealey to
> Oakcliff at the GLOCO station.
Yes. He was.
>
> > And after he was stopped, why couldn't Oswald have cooly talked his way
> > out of the situation, as he did at the depository? After all, Tippit had
> > absolutely no reason to suspect him at that point.
>
> Exact provocations and what Tippit might have done with this one on
> assignment can be unsure for sure, but that person Tippit stopped
> wanted Tippit dead, not just out of his hair.
It was stepping out of his car that got Tippit killed.
Just a thought.
::Clark:::
clarkw...@charter.net
>
> Tippit was an obstacle to Oswald`s next goal of taking another crack
> at Walker.
>
>
True, but to have you say it rings all wrong. But what's that they
say about a monkey and a typewriter?
Just a thought.
::Clark::
clarkw...@charter.net
> LHO could simply have been doing what he was told to do which was to
> stay by a phone. He could have believed based on what he was told
> that a "fake" assassination attempt was going to to take place so they
> could blame Castro for it and invade Cuba. Who knows, and really it
> does NOT matter as he was accused of being the shooter of JFK, JBC and
> JDT and there is NO evidence that shows this to be the case upon cross-
> examination.
>
Oh, gawd! I'll hate myself for typing this in the morning, but Bud is
right. Lee is looking for a cheap place to stay for Friday and
Saturday night until he can kill Walker on Sunday.
How an LNer like Bud could have figured this out probably qualifies as
one of the great miracles of our century.
>
> Some have posited that it was JDT's task to kill LHO "in-flight" IF
> Ruby blew the chance at the TSBD. Maybe, but we won't ever know for
> sure.
>
Ruby wasn't at the TSBD to blow it.
> > It has never made sense that Tippit would have randomly chosen to stop
> > Oswald, who was far from the scene of the assassination and did not match
> > the description that Brennon gave to the police.
>
> It also makes no sense that the DPD doctored their own transcripts to
> show JDT was ordered there in the first place when he was not. It is
> called CYA.
>
> > And after he was stopped, why couldn't Oswald have cooly talked his way
> > out of the situation, as he did at the depository? After all, Tippit had
> > absolutely no reason to suspect him at that point.
>
> YOU are assuming LHO was even there, and this is a bad thing to do
> with the eyewitness testimony we have.
The evidence that Lee killed Tippit outweighs the evidence he killed
JFK.
> Furthermore, the WC and no
> subsequent government body has ever shown us HOW LHO managed this feat
> IF he did. They gave a claim of him doing things that got him there
> but when folks were asked along the routes IF they saw him they could
> NOT find one person who said yes, we saw him.
He was seen on the bus.
He was seen by the cabdriver.
He was seen by his landlady.
And, unless his pistol can be in two places at the same time, it was
at the Tippit shooting.
> These houses were
> filled with stay-at-home moms and retired folks too so it wasn't like
> he was walking through a deserted area.
>
> It is dangerous to agree with a claim when there is NO evidence that
> will support it upon cross-examination.
>
> > The only logical answer is that Tippit knew exactly who he was looking for
> > and knew the path he would be traveling. And he had a tragically big
> > mouth, letting Oswald know what his plans for him were.
>
> Sorry, there is another logical answer as well. JDT was killed to do
> two things IMO, keep his mouth shut and to make LHO look even guiltier
> (a third could be for failure to do what he was supposed to do - kill
> LHO). Maybe it was the first and the second was a benefit, who
> knows. IF I was a betting man I would say it was Roscoe White who was
> riding with JDT looking for LHO and when they couldn't find him they
> got into a heated disagreement and White popped him.
If I were you, I'd stay away from Las Vegas.
>
> There is NO evidence that will stand up to scrutiny showing LHO was
> anywhere near where the WC said he was when JDT was killed. LHO was
> heading for a safe meeting place too (TT) instead of getting out of
> town so we know there was someone or some group guiding him in these
> times.
Claiming LHO was headed for the Texas Theater is like claiming he was
headed to the shoe store.
Lee ducked into the shoe store when a police cruiser passed. He was
so obvious about the shoe salesman followed him. LHO then ducked a
second cruiser by entering the the theater without paying.
If Lee's destination was the the theater, then he was a complete idiot
to try and get in without paying. That's how you don't get in.
Just a thought.
::Clark::
clarkw...@charter.net
No. He did not. Lee is in the wrong location (Was Tippit to believe
Lee had walked to where he was from the TSBD?), was not carrying a
rifle, and the description fit almost any white male in Dallas at the
time.
But I agree with yur Dale Meyer's argument.
Just a thought.
::Clark::
jbarge
I always found it odd that LHO was so composed when confronted by
Baker/Truly and then so panicked upon being confronted by Tippit.
Bud
> On Jun 30, 9:17 pm, Robert Harris <reharr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > It makes no sense that Tippit could have provoked him to draw his weapon
> > unless Tippit said something that was very provocative.
>
> > Robert Harris- Hide quoted text -
>
> He opened his car door and got out.
> Whatever Lee was selling, Tippit wasn't buying.
>
> But Tippit's behavior, outside a hunch, fails to meet an arrest
> criteria.
Why do you think it got to the "arrest" stage? That Tippit
questioned Oswald from the car speaks to a low level of interest.
Tippit getting out speaks to an increased interest. Neither action
speaks to either an imminent arrest or murder.
> He has no reason to exit the car and pursue Oswald.
"pursue"? Did Oswald try to flee before he killed Tippit?
You guys really shouldn`t be looking into this case at all. Cops
briefly detain and scrutinize people all the time without killing or
arresting them.
> If he exited the car to kill Oswald, then he was careless.
<snicker> Of course he did, what else could he have been getting out
for if not to commit murder?
> Just a thought.
>
> ::Clark::
Bud
The description wasn`t that far off. They had the height very close,
"slender build" was an excellent description of his build.
But, it is more a matter of how close that description matched
Tippt`s perception of the man he was looking at, not Oswald`s actual
statistics. Oswald looks closer to 30 than his actual 23 to me. High
hairline and serious demeanor add years.
Anthony Marsh
12:45 375. DIS: Attention all squads. Attention all squads.
The suspect in the shooting at Elm and Houston
is reported to be an unknown white male,
approximately thirty, slender build, height five
feet ten inches, weight one hundred sixty-five
pounds, reported to be armed with what is
thought to be a .30 caliber rifle. Attention all
squads. The suspect from Elm and Houston is
reported to be an unknown white male about
thirty, slender build, five feet ten inches
tall, one hundred sixty-five pounds, armed with
what is thought to be a 30-30 rifle. No further
description at this time, or information. 12:45.
KKB360, Dallas.
_______________________
If Tippit hears this description over the radio it could apply to
thousands of people in the area. But obviously the details about a rifle
are just a guess this early and I see no reason for a shooter to walk
around carrying the rifle all day. Is he going to take it with him to
the theater? I know how wacky those Texans are about their guns, but
even that seems a little too extreme for an ordinary day.
Anthony Marsh
>> LHO could simply have been doing what he was told to do which was to
>> stay by a phone. He could have believed based on what he was told
>> that a "fake" assassination attempt was going to to take place so they
>> could blame Castro for it and invade Cuba. Who knows, and really it
>> does NOT matter as he was accused of being the shooter of JFK, JBC and
>> JDT and there is NO evidence that shows this to be the case upon cross-
>> examination.
>>
>
> Oh, gawd! I'll hate myself for typing this in the morning, but Bud is
> right. Lee is looking for a cheap place to stay for Friday and
> Saturday night until he can kill Walker on Sunday.
>
And what exactly would he use for a weapon? His rifle was left in the
TSBD? If he wanted to shoot Walker up close with his revolver, then why
didn't he do that the first time to make sure he wouldn't miss?
And maybe Oswald knew that Walker wasn't even in town that day. Never
thought of that, did ya?
> How an LNer like Bud could have figured this out probably qualifies as
> one of the great miracles of our century.
>
You haven't yet figured out that the LNers convict Oswald of the JFK
killing by saying that he was a serial killer who was out to kill anyone?
>
>
>>
>> Some have posited that it was JDT's task to kill LHO "in-flight" IF
>> Ruby blew the chance at the TSBD. Maybe, but we won't ever know for
>> sure.
>>
>
> Ruby wasn't at the TSBD to blow it.
>
He was in the newspaper office trying to drum up business.
Even mass murderers also run businesses.
Excuse me? His object was to get in without being identified. You can't
do that if you buy a ticket.
> Just a thought.
>
> ::Clark::
>
Anthony Marsh
Could be that when confronted by Baker/Truly Oswald did not yet know
that the President had been shot.
Anthony Marsh
> On Jul 1, 9:06 am, curtjester1<curtjest...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Tippit, Ruby, and Oswald
>> were known to eat breakfast as regulars together at a restaurant in
>> Oakcliff.
>
> They did not eat together or know each other.
>
Just because they ate breakfast together does not mean they were
sleeping with each other.
yeuhd
> chance of probability, would have to vote "innocent".
Legal point: Juries do not vote that a defendant is "innocent", giving
him a clean reputation. They vote that the defendant is "not guilty",
in other words, that the case against him was not proved beyond a
reasonable doubt. This is a high burden of proof, and juries and their
individual members have sometimes expressed suspicion that the
defendant was indeed guilty as charged, even though the jury voted to
acquit.
Anthony Marsh
> On Jul 3, 9:53 pm, Anthony Marsh<anthony_ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> On 7/3/2009 9:54 AM, yeuhd wrote:
>>
>>> On Jul 3, 12:12 am, Robert<robcap...@netscape.com> wrote:
>>>> It lacked any clothing, thus, please tell us how such a basic description
>>>> that could fit thousands of men in Dallas would alert JDT that he was
>>>> looking at the killer of JFK.
>>
>>> Thousands of men weren't walking through the Oak Cliff area that
>>> Tippit was in. And you're attributing a much greater level of
>>
>> I like your style of reasoning. Oswald was the only person walking in
>> Oak Cliff, therefore he must have just killed the President.
>
> But I never said that, did I? Strawman argument. Those words,
> "therefore he must have just killed the President", are your words,
> not mine. I never said Tippit thought, "There's the guy that killed
> the President."
>
> What I did say was that Oswald met the general description of the
> suspect that was broadcast over police radio. That is not a crime, nor
No, he was not carrying a .30 caliber rifle as per the police radio
description and the physical description could apply to thousands of men
in the area.
> is walking around Oak Cliff. But something about Oswald's appearance,
> demeanor, or something he said to Tippit made Tippit decide to
> investigate further.
>
Yeah, but nothing told him the man was the assassin or he would have
called it in and drawn his service revolver. Even a cop can't go around
shooting everyone he sees. He might stop 10 innocent people before he
finds the killer. He can't shoot each of the 10 people he stops and
questions.
yeuhd
> I always found it odd that LHO was so composed when confronted by
> Baker/Truly and then so panicked upon being confronted by Tippit.
Several reasons. Oswald was unarmed when confronted by Baker and
Truly. What could he do? The two men were standing in the only door of
the room he had ducked into, he couldn't run. But it was 40 minutes
later when Officer Tippit stopped Oswald. By that time, Oswald might
have guessed (or feared) that several things could have happened in
the interim:
1. The police could have concluded that shots came from the upper
floors of the TSBD (they did, within three minutes; Officer Baker's
presence in the TSBD with gun drawn indicated that).
2. His absence from the TSBD could have been noted.
3. His co-worker Wesley Frazier could have told police about the
"curtain rods" package Oswald carried into the TSBD that morning.
4. His estranged wife could have told police, via Ruth Paine, that
Oswald worked in the TSBD and that his rifle was now missing from its
normal storage space in the garage.
5. The Dallas FBI office could have told police that Oswald, a known
Marxist-Leninist and former defector with a Russian wife, worked in
the TSBD. Oswald knew that they were surveilling him and that Ruth
Paine had told them where he worked.
Keeping all those things in mind, Oswald panicked and pulled out his
gun when Officer Tippit approached him, and he panicked and pulled out
his gun again when Officer McDonald approached him.
slats
news:78c3cd82-366d-4bb0...@h8g2000yqm.googlegroups.com:
> On Jul 4, 8:42?am, yeuhd <NeedlesWax...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Jul 3, 9:53?pm, Anthony Marsh <anthony_ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>> > On 7/3/2009 9:54 AM, yeuhd wrote:
>>
>> > > On Jul 3, 12:12 am, Robert<robcap...@netscape.com> ?wrote:
>> > >> It lacked any clothing, thus, please tell us how such a basic
>> > >> descri
> ption
>> > >> that could fit thousands of men in Dallas would alert JDT that
>> > >> he wa
> s
>> > >> looking at the killer of JFK.
>>
>> > > Thousands of men weren't walking through the Oak Cliff area that
>> > > Tippit was in. And you're attributing a much greater level of
>>
>> > I like your style of reasoning. Oswald was the only person walking
>> > in Oak Cliff, therefore he must have just killed the President.
>>
>> But I never said that, did I? Strawman argument. Those words,
>> "therefore he must have just killed the President", are your words,
>> not mine. I never said Tippit thought, "There's the guy that killed
>> the President."
>>
>> What I did say was that Oswald met the general description of the
>> suspect that was broadcast over police radio. That is not a crime,
>> nor is walking around Oak Cliff. But something about Oswald's
>> appearance, demeanor, or something he said to Tippit made Tippit
>> decide to investigate further.
>
> I always found it odd that LHO was so composed when confronted by
> Baker/Truly and then so panicked upon being confronted by Tippit.
He wasn't armed when Baker/Truly stopped him, and since his immediate
goal was to somehow exit the building without drawing suspicion, he had
no choice but to "play it cool."
curtjester1
I walked the short route in the 13.5, and I walked like I was walking on a
golf course, very steady in a matter-of-fact manner. I am never one of
accused of slow play. Belin the WC lawyer walked it in the same time. I
walked the taxi drop off spot to the roominghouse in 6.5 minutes. The
direct trip to the Texas Theater was just about exactly 20 minutes. One
could have taken Zangs and cut a little off. It never has been brought to
my attention in any way, but Zangs is a major thoroughfare street, and
would have probably had a bus route that could have brought Oswald within
a couple of short blocks to the Texas Theater. (I do believe though that
Tippit took Oswald to the theater and was only a block away to make the
phone call at the record store). Tippit, Ruby, and Oswald often ate
breakfast together in OakCliff as found years later in research.
William Lawrence Smith started his lunch route at the 500 block of East
Tenth. When one is going away from the Tippit murder scene that is East.
Going toward the Texas Theater is West. Smith turned and went East
towards the Town and Country Cafe. Smith brushed up against Oswald over
one block on his walk after turning East.
The first person to see Oswald walking West on East Tenth was a barber
that was FOUR blocks east of the Tippit murder scene. That was a Mr.
Clark. He told the FBI and a customer, he saw him "walking in a great
hurry." That spot is only 2 blocks from Ruby's apartment. Even if one
takes the fast time you posted of 11 minutes to the murder scene, and
extends the distance to an even mile, that would be a trip by Clark's
barber shop to be circa 5 minutes. Now if it was Oswald walking and
getting that far from the roominghouse that would be almost double, ten
minutes. Any which way, walking, is impossible.
The only way to theorize an Oswald-Tippit murder would be if Tippit gave
Oswald a ride to that area, or perhaps Ruby's place and dropped him off.
Then Tippit would have had to go to the record store to make his call and
call Ruby?. Let's say Oswald was dropped at Ruby's, it could be theorized
that Ruby said to off Tippit. But then why? and why would Oswald do that
in order to draw attention to himself?
I believe personally in a real or another Oswald getting into the Nash
Rambler that Craig and many other witnesses saw, and went to a place in
Oakcliff...(also verified), and it was that person that looked enough like
the arrested Oswald as to get taken for him. I believe that the Oswald
that shot Tippit had much more darker and bushier hair as attested by his
barber Shastain who cut his hair, and who blocked his hair in the back,
not like the arrested Oswald who had finer hair and let it just grow it
down his neck.
CJ
yeuhd
> On Jul 1, 8:56 am, yeuhd <NeedlesWax...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > If Oswald didn't "match" the description broadcast three times over
> > the police radio, he was close enough to it. The description said a
> > white male about 5 feet 10 inches, Oswald was 5 feet 9 inches. The
> > description said about 30, Oswald was 24, and with his receding
> > hairline looked older. And Oswald indeed had a "slender build".
>
> Was Lee leaving the TSBD when Tippit encountered him and carrying a
> 30.30 rifle?
>
> If not, Lee matches the description no more than 100,000 other Dallas
> males.
>
>
>
> > And it's not unlikely that Oswald was walking fast, wherever he was
> > going.
>
> > Two groups of witnesses saw Oswald on 10th Street. One group saw him
> > walking west (towards Patton), the other group saw him walking or
> > facing east (away from Patton). Dale K. Myers makes a good case that
> > Oswald may have turned around when he saw Tippit's squad car
> > approaching, and began walking in the opposite direction.
>
> Agreed.
>
>
>
> > Hypothetical conversation:
>
> > "Excuse me, do you live around here?"
> > "No."
>
> Lee did.
Depends on how where "around here" is — this neighborhood, or Oak
Cliff in general. Oswald was almost a mile from his rooming house.
> > "Can I ask where you were going?"
> > "Just down the street to the movies."
>
> That is where he went.
Which is why I wrote that.
> > "You turned around and started walking the other way as I drove up.
> > You looked like you were in a hurry."
> > Oswald shrugs.
>
> Oz has some explaining to do.
>
> Likewise, so does Tippit for even being where he is.
No he didn't. Officer Tippit was assigned to Oak Cliff at large that
afternoon. It's right there in the DPD dispatcher's calls. I refer you
to my post above:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/msg/3ad5f138546c3cb9
> > "Do you have some I.D. on you?"
> > "Ah…no."
>
> Ah - Yes.
> LHO had his choice of ID's - Lee Harvey Oswald or A, J. Hidell.
Tippit examines the "Hidell" Selective Service card. "Could I see some
identification with your current address on it?"
"I don't have any."
Tippit is suspicious. "Could I see your wallet?"
yeuhd
> On Jul 2, 1:03 pm, yeuhd <NeedlesWax...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jun 30, 11:10 pm, Robert Harris <reharr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > And Tippit had "absolutely no reason to suspect" Oswald on 10th? To
> > start, how about that Oswald fit the description of the TSBD shooter
> > broadcast three times over the police radio?
>
> No. He did not.
I refer you to what I wrote above:
If Oswald didn't "match" the description broadcast three times over
the police radio, he was close enough to it. The description said a
white male about 5 feet 10 inches, Oswald was 5 feet 9 inches. The
description said about 30, Oswald was 24, and with his receding
hairline looked older. And Oswald indeed had a "slender build".
> Lee is in the wrong location (Was Tippit to believe
> Lee had walked to where he was from the TSBD?)
Where is the "right" location to be after killing the President? Close
by? And from Elm & Houston to 10th & Patton is only 2.5 miles. At 4
mph, that's a 37.5 minute walk. By public transit, it's 15-17 minutes.
> was not carrying a
> rifle,
Do you really think Tippit or any other police officer assumed the
shooter of the President would be walking around Dallas still carrying
the rifle in hand?
yeuhd
>
> He was seen by the cabdriver.
>
> He was seen by his landlady.
Oswald was seen by his housekeeper, Mrs. Roberts, not by his landlady,
Mrs. Johnson.
Bud
> On Jul 1, 9:07 am, Bud <sirsl...@fast.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Tippit was an obstacle to Oswald`s next goal of taking another crack
> > at Walker.
>
> True, but to have you say it rings all wrong.
Perhaps you are tone deaf.
> But what's that they
> say about a monkey and a typewriter?
You`re in the wrong forum for sex jokes.
> Just a thought.
>
> ::Clark::
Bud
>
> > LHO could simply have been doing what he was told to do which was to
> > stay by a phone. He could have believed based on what he was told
> > that a "fake" assassination attempt was going to to take place so they
> > could blame Castro for it and invade Cuba. Who knows, and really it
> > does NOT matter as he was accused of being the shooter of JFK, JBC and
> > JDT and there is NO evidence that shows this to be the case upon cross-
> > examination.
>
> Oh, gawd! I'll hate myself for typing this in the morning, but Bud is
> right. Lee is looking for a cheap place to stay for Friday and
> Saturday night until he can kill Walker on Sunday.
>
> How an LNer like Bud could have figured this out probably qualifies as
> one of the great miracles of our century.
Bud doesn`t think any of that. Bud thinks Oswald was going to Walker`s
house to try to kill him again that day. Doesn`t matter that Walker was
out of town unless Oswald knows it.
> > Some have posited that it was JDT's task to kill LHO "in-flight" IF
> > Ruby blew the chance at the TSBD. Maybe, but we won't ever know for
> > sure.
>
> Ruby wasn't at the TSBD to blow it.
>
> > > It has never made sense that Tippit would have randomly chosen to stop
> > > Oswald, who was far from the scene of the assassination and did not match
> > > the description that Brennon gave to the police.
>
> > It also makes no sense that the DPD doctored their own transcripts to
> > show JDT was ordered there in the first place when he was not. It is
> > called CYA.
>
> > > And after he was stopped, why couldn't Oswald have cooly talked his way
> > > out of the situation, as he did at the depository? After all, Tippit had
> > > absolutely no reason to suspect him at that point.
>
> > YOU are assuming LHO was even there, and this is a bad thing to do
> > with the eyewitness testimony we have.
>
> The evidence that Lee killed Tippit outweighs the evidence he killed
> JFK.
The evidence that Oswald killed Kennedy shows he killed Kennedy.
likewise, the evidence that he killed Tippit shows he killed Tippit.
curtjester1
> On Jul 1, 9:06 am, curtjester1 <curtjest...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Tippit, Ruby, and Oswald
> > were known to eat breakfast as regulars together at a restaurant in
> > Oakcliff.
>
> They did not eat together or know each other.
>
>
I would suggest you are baiting me for some corroboration. This place of
meeting for the 3 was at the Pig and Whistle in Oakcliff with the
restaurant owned by a Mr. Crater. I forget if his name was Bill or Mel.
You may read a lot on the Tippit Murder in Livingstones's, The Radical
Right and Murder of John F. Kennedy. It starts on pg. 322 and the cite I
gave you is from pg. 323. When research is done by local folks and not
done depended on by the FBI and the WC, one will get a whole new
perspective. There is tons of material out there with Ferrie, Shaw, and
Oswald, and Ruby and Oswald, and some on Tippit and Ruby, and Oswald and
Tippit in the same place of business a few times.
>
>
>
>
>
> > Tippit dropped Oswald at the theater and would have been directly able
> > to go to the Top Ten Record Store. He obviously was stressed and was
> > looking to call someone. Assuming he did his 'job' to that point (and
> > yes being a conspirator in the JFK demise) needed to know what his
> > next assignment was. He had to know of the methodology of the patsy
> > they were creating with the fake or double Oswald, and knew he had to
> > be accounted for. He must have known as he went to the area where he
> > was. He was pulling cars over and checking them, so Tippit was
> > looking frantically. He finally sees 'set-up' Oswald and confronts.
> > 'Set up' Oswald is assigned to double cross Tippit and kill him and
> > leave a trail of evidence where TSBD Oswald is so he can be double
> > crossed as well. TSBD Oswald is waiting their for his contact as he
> > goes from seat to seat...as that is the meeting place hoping to find
> > someone to take him from there. At his arrest, he says it's all over
> > now..and in custody..."they're going to know who I am". He knows he
> > has been double crossed, and probably all the more so when he finds
> > out his ride to the TSBD has been murdered.
>
> Tippit's behavior and location is difficult to explain. But giving
> rides to Oswald? - No.
>
>
There is 'no' plausible way to get to the Tippit murder scene in the
amount of time people have tried to suggest. You can read my subsequent
post where I go into detail about where 'Oswald' was seen prior to the
shooting of Tippit for that. On giving a ride to Oswald, a police car
stopped in front of the roominghouse while Oswald was in there. Earlene
Roberts said their were 2 honks from the vehicle and it just rolled around
the corner. The number on the patrol car was just a little off from
Tippit's can it very well could have been his since he is the only
patrolman that was identified to be on duty and in the vicinity at that
time.
>
> > > It has never made sense that Tippit would have randomly chosen to stop
> > > Oswald, who was far from the scene of the assassination and did not match
> > > the description that Brennon gave to the police.
>
> > Tippit was in a prime spot after the shooting to see Oswald coming to
> > the roominghouse as he was at a spot to see cars coming from Dealey to
> > Oakcliff at the GLOCO station.
>
> Yes. He was.
>
>
>
> > > And after he was stopped, why couldn't Oswald have cooly talked his way
> > > out of the situation, as he did at the depository? After all, Tippit had
> > > absolutely no reason to suspect him at that point.
>
> > Exact provocations and what Tippit might have done with this one on
> > assignment can be unsure for sure, but that person Tippit stopped
> > wanted Tippit dead, not just out of his hair.
>
> It was stepping out of his car that got Tippit killed.
>
Well that's kind of like saying the WTC's fell because of gravity.
Whatever led to his demise it was out of character for police procedure.
Didn't radio in, and he had his gun drawn.
CJ
curtjester1
>
> - Show quoted text -
It doesn't mean they weren't, ha. Ruby and Oswald have been highly
theorized to have been engaged in homosexual activity. Rose Chermie
even said they were shacking buddies.
CJ
John McAdams
wrote:
>It doesn't mean they weren't, ha. Ruby and Oswald have been highly
>theorized to have been engaged in homosexual activity. Rose Chermie
>even said they were shacking buddies.
>
She said they had been shacking up for years.
But we know that to be untrue.
So what does that say about her credibility?
.John
--------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
Robert Harris
<f44c29e7-02e3-4c8c...@e21g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
yeuhd <Needle...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jul 3, 12:23�am, Robert Harris <reharr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > Jimmy Burt saw a man walk west on 10th. Although Burt didn�t see the
> > > shooting, and said he could not
> > > identify the man, he did say that after he heard the shots he saw this
> > > same man running away from the squad car south on Patton.
> >
> > Gosh, someone was running away after the shots went off?? Do you suppose
> > there were LOTS of people running away?
>
> No, there was only one person whom eyewitnesses described as running
> away from the squad car and going south on Patton right after the
> shots were fired. Just one. You know his name.
That's a very misleading statement. Do you suppose that because
witnesses did not say that people were running away from the area of the
shooting, everyone was holding their ground?
No-one testified about that because it was not a significant issue.
And the fact that Burt saw an unidentified man running away from the
shooting means absolutely nothing. He didn't even claim that he saw this
guy involved in the shooting.
>
> > > Bricklayer William Lawrence Smith, after being shown photos of Oswald,
> > > felt sure that Oswald was the man he saw walking westward by him on
> > > 10th Street a few minutes before the Tippit shooting occurred.
> >
> > Funny that he had to be shown pictures, eh? Do you suppose he hadn't
> > seen Oswald a hundred times on television and in the papers?
>
> Please quote where the FBI report said Smith "had to be shown"
> pictures.
LOL!!
You're good Yeuhd.
>
> > And are you aware that Smith also said he saw this guy "a few minutes
> > after 1:00 pm"?
>
> Please quote from the FBI report where Smith said he saw Oswald "a few
> minutes after 1:00 p.m."
http://spot.acorn.net/JFKplace/09/fp.back_issues/25th_Issue/facts.html
"William Lawrence Smith was walking east toward the Town and Country
Cafe (604 E 10th) a few minutes after 1:00 pm. Smith "felt sure that the
man who walked by him going west on 10th St. was Lee Harvey Oswald"
(interview of Smith by Brookhart 1/13/64). At this time, approximately
1:04 pm, "Harvey Oswald" was a mile away --- seen by housekeeper Earlene
Roberts standing at the bus stop on the corner of Zang and Beckley."
I didn't find the 1/13/64 report; there are a lot of FBI reports that
are not available on the internet. But I find it hard to believe that
Armstrong just made it up.
> In fact, the report says, "[Smith] said that
> he left the job and went to lunch, exact time unrecalled, and notice a
> man walking west on 10th Street."
A "few minutes after 1PM" is not an exact time.
>
> > And that Oswald's landlady saw the real Oswald, standing
> > at the bustop about a mile from the murder scene at 1:04PM?
>
> You are confusing Oswald's landlady, Gladys Johnson, with her
> housekeeper, Earlene Roberts. Mrs. Roberts at no time said she looked
> at a watch or a clock to note when Oswald came in or left. In fact,
> she testified that when Oswald came in she was trying to adjust a
> television set to watch the news of the assassination. When asked the
> approximate time Oswald came in, she answered, "it must have been
> AROUND 1 o'clock, or MAYBE a little after", but then concluded, "what
> time I wouldn't want to say."
She did not express that kind of doubt in her original affidavit of
12/5/63, when her memory of the event was much fresher.
As in the case of Smith, you are trying to exploit the fact that honest
witnesses who are not staring at a stopwatch, properly qualify their
statements with "about" or "approximately".
>
> Those who want to place Oswald away from the Tippit shooting site
I cannot speak for those people, since I think Oswald probably shot
Tippit. But Myers' theory is silly. There simply was not enough time for
Oswald to have walked the route that he proposes.
Robert Harris
> always seem to forget her words "around" and "maybe" and most
> importantly, her nullifying conclusion, "what time I wouldn't want to
> say."
Robert Harris
<8342734e-1766-4225...@c1g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>,
Bud <sirs...@fast.net> wrote:
> On Jul 4, 9:55 am, clarkwilk...@charter.net wrote:
> > On Jun 30, 9:17 pm, Robert Harris <reharr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > It makes no sense that Tippit could have provoked him to draw his weapon
> > > unless Tippit said something that was very provocative.
> >
> > > Robert Harris- Hide quoted text -
> >
> > He opened his car door and got out.
> > Whatever Lee was selling, Tippit wasn't buying.
> >
> > But Tippit's behavior, outside a hunch, fails to meet an arrest
> > criteria.
>
> Why do you think it got to the "arrest" stage? That Tippit
> questioned Oswald from the car speaks to a low level of interest.
Not necessarily, Bud.
You have no way of knowing that Tippit questioned Oswald. What if he
told Oswald to get in the car?
Robert Harris
yeuhd
> There is 'no' plausible way to get to the Tippit murder scene in the
> amount of time people have tried to suggest.
I refer you again to this video, in which the route is walked on
camera in 11 minutes, 10 seconds:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15fRNaFQczc
> On giving a ride to Oswald, a police car
> stopped in front of the roominghouse while Oswald was in there. Earlene
> Roberts said their were 2 honks from the vehicle and it just rolled around
> the corner. The number on the patrol car was just a little off from
> Tippit's can it very well could have been his since he is the only
> patrolman that was identified to be on duty and in the vicinity at that
> time.
Earlene Roberts said the number of the police car was "207". Then she
said it was "106". Then she said it was "107".
Tippit's squad car number was "10" (on the driver's and front
passenger's doors), and his license plate number was "46601":
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/9/92/Photo_wcd81-1_0176.jpg
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/6/6b/Photo_wcd81-1_0175.jpg
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/f/f9/Photo_wcd81-1_0182.jpg
Vincent Bugliosi, "Reclaiming History", endnotes, p. 38:
Mrs. Earlene Roberts testified before the Warren Commission that she
heard a car horn sound while Oswald was in his room, looked out the
front window, and saw a Dallas police car move off, easing around the
corner from Beckley onto Zangs Boulevard (6 H 43). Although critics
have been quick to seize on Mrs. Roberts’s claims as supportive of the
charge that Oswald met up with police conspirators after leaving his
rooming house, the housekeeper’s account of seeing a Dallas police car
is rife with discrepancies and devoid of logic. Roberts, who admitted
she was “completely blind” in her right eye, and couldn’t “see too
good” with her left, told the FBI the license plate number of the
police car was 207. Roberts waited seven days (November 29) before she
told this story to the FBI. (CE 2249, 25 H 171, FBI interview of
Earlene Roberts on November 29, 1963; CE 2645, 25 H 909) A Dallas
police investigation ascertained that patrol car 207 was nowhere near
Oak Cliff that afternoon, being parked at Houston and Elm at the time,
its operator, Patrolman Jim Valentine, who was the sole occupant of
car 207 on November 22, 1963, assisting in the search of the Book
Depository Building (CE 2249, 25 H 171; CE 2645, 25 H 910, 914). The
next number she came up with was 106 (6 H 443). But at 12:45 p.m. on
the day of the assassination, Dallas officers B. L. Jones and M. D.
Hall, in 106, left their post at the corner of Pearl and Jackson
streets and proceeded to the Book Depository Building, where they
presumably stayed until 1:18 p.m., when they drove to Oak Cliff to
help in the search for Officer Tippit’s killer. (Myers, "With Malice",
p.51) In her Warren Commission testimony, Roberts said, “I don’t know
where I got that 106.” The correct number, she said, was “107.” (6 H
444) But number 107 belonged to a Dallas police car that had been
stripped of its numbering and sold on April 17, 1963, to a used-car
dealer in Sulphur Springs, Texas, and the police didn’t resume using
this number until February of 1964 (CE 2045, 24 H 460).
Ultimately, police were unable to identify any police vehicle that
might have passed in front of 1026 North Beckley at one o’clock that
afternoon (CE 2645, 25 H 909–915; see also 11 HSCA 240). The FBI
conducted its own investigation of Roberts’s allegation and said it
“fails to substantiate” what Roberts said (FBI Record 124-10047-10428,
June 17, 1964). Mrs. Roberts later testified that she thought the
officers in the car might have been Officers “Alexander and Charles
Burnley” whom she had performed housekeeping duties for in the past (6
H 443; worked for in past: CE 2249, 25 H 171). There was only one
Alexander on the force, a Lieutenant Floyd T. Alexander, but he was a
firearms expert who worked in the crime lab, and he didn’t drive a
squad car. There had been another Alexander on the force, Sergeant
Floyd J. Alexander (no relation), but he left the force in 1957. Floyd
Alexander did know Mrs. Roberts, having employed her as a
housekeeper.
He described her as not being very bright, and the kind of person who
“would do almost anything to get attention.” Officer Charles T.
Burnley was equally unsupportive, stating that Mrs. Roberts never
worked for him, nor had he ever met her. (Myers, "With Malice", pp.50–
53, 55)
Bud
It`s possible Clark was referring to his previous landlady, Mrs
Bledsoe.
Robert Harris
<9d3362f8-67de-4ab2...@i18g2000pro.googlegroups.com>,
clarkw...@charter.net wrote:
> On Jun 30, 9:17�pm, Robert Harris <reharr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > It makes no sense that Tippit could have provoked him to draw his weapon
> > unless Tippit said something that was very provocative.
> >
> > Robert Harris- Hide quoted text -
> >
>
> He opened his car door and got out.
> Whatever Lee was selling, Tippit wasn't buying.
Or visa versa.
Robert Harris
>
> But Tippit's behavior, outside a hunch, fails to meet an arrest
> criteria. He has no reason to exit the car and pursue Oswald.
>
> If he exited the car to kill Oswald, then he was careless.
>
> Just a thought.
>
> ::Clark::
yeuhd
> > > And are you aware that Smith also said he saw this guy "a few minutes
> > > after 1:00 pm"?
>
> > Please quote from the FBI report where Smith said he saw Oswald "a few
> > minutes after 1:00 p.m."
>
> http://spot.acorn.net/JFKplace/09/fp.back_issues/25th_Issue/facts.html
>
> "William Lawrence Smith was walking east toward the Town and Country
> Cafe (604 E 10th) a few minutes after 1:00 pm. Smith "felt sure that the
> man who walked by him going west on 10th St. was Lee Harvey Oswald"
> (interview of Smith by Brookhart 1/13/64). At this time, approximately
> 1:04 pm, "Harvey Oswald" was a mile away --- seen by housekeeper Earlene
> Roberts standing at the bus stop on the corner of Zang and Beckley."
>
> I didn't find the 1/13/64 report; there are a lot of FBI reports that
> are not available on the internet. But I find it hard to believe that
> Armstrong just made it up.
You didn't look very hard, because I linked to that very FBI report
earlier in this thread. (Smith interviewed Jan. 11, 1964; report
dictated Jan. 13, 1964; report written Jan. 14, 1964.) Here is my
post, with the link:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/msg/a75ea88be5c91f4b
And here again is the FBI report:
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10730&relPageId=86
And as you can see, yes, John Armstrong DID make it up.
> > In fact, the report says, "[Smith] said that
> > he left the job and went to lunch, exact time unrecalled, and notice a
> > man walking west on 10th Street."
>
> A "few minutes after 1PM" is not an exact time.
William Lawrence Smith never said "a few minutes after 1 p.m." But you
treated that nonexistent time estimate as nearly an exact time when
you said that, based on that timing, Oswald did not have enough time
to be at the Tippit site.
William Lawrence Smith never gave a time estimate in his FBI interview.
yeuhd
> > > seen Oswald a hundred times on television and in the papers?
>
> > Please quote where the FBI report said Smith "had to be shown"
> > pictures.
>
> LOL!!
>
> You're good Yeuhd.
Whatever that means, you still haven't quoted where the FBI report
said William Lawrence Smith "had to be shown" pictures.
Bud
> In article
> <8342734e-1766-4225-8967-b87e4caa0...@c1g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>,
>
>
>
> Bud <sirsl...@fast.net> wrote:
> > On Jul 4, 9:55 am, clarkwilk...@charter.net wrote:
> > > On Jun 30, 9:17 pm, Robert Harris <reharr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > It makes no sense that Tippit could have provoked him to draw his weapon
> > > > unless Tippit said something that was very provocative.
>
> > > > Robert Harris- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > He opened his car door and got out.
> > > Whatever Lee was selling, Tippit wasn't buying.
>
> > > But Tippit's behavior, outside a hunch, fails to meet an arrest
> > > criteria.
>
> > Why do you think it got to the "arrest" stage? That Tippit
> > questioned Oswald from the car speaks to a low level of interest.
>
> Not necessarily, Bud.
>
> You have no way of knowing that Tippit questioned Oswald.
What I have is enough sense to apply to information. Markham said he
there was a discussion between the two. You can imagine that Tippit
ordered him into the car, or under the car, or anything else that strikes
your fancy. The situation speaks to me as a routine, low level of interest
questioning, which Tippit escalated into increased scrutiny.
> What if he
> told Oswald to get in the car?
If Tippit knows Oswald as a person he was supposed to confront, why have
any conversation at all through the window of the patrol car? He`d pull
up, get out, and then confront him. Sitting in the car he has no real
control of the situation, but it does make sense if he was just making a
cursory stop, where Oswald answers or actions led Tippit to take a closer
look at this person.
Bud
> In article
> <9d3362f8-67de-4ab2-8ba9-2d0314335...@i18g2000pro.googlegroups.com>,
>
> clarkwilk...@charter.net wrote:
> > On Jun 30, 9:17 pm, Robert Harris <reharr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > It makes no sense that Tippit could have provoked him to draw his weapon
> > > unless Tippit said something that was very provocative.
>
> > > Robert Harris- Hide quoted text -
>
> > He opened his car door and got out.
> > Whatever Lee was selling, Tippit wasn't buying.
>
> Or visa versa.
Silly to think these are equal propositions. Oswald is the one who
committed the capital crime(s), Tippit was the on-duty officer of the
law.
John McAdams
>On Jul 1, 9:08�am, Robert <robcap...@netscape.com> wrote:
>> LHO could simply have been doing what he was told to do which was to
>> stay by a phone. �He could have believed based on what he was told
>> that a "fake" assassination attempt was going to to take place so they
>> could blame Castro for it and invade Cuba. �Who knows, and really it
>> does NOT matter as he was accused of being the shooter of JFK, JBC and
>> JDT and there is NO evidence that shows this to be the case upon cross-
>> examination.
>>
>
>Oh, gawd! I'll hate myself for typing this in the morning, but Bud is
>right. Lee is looking for a cheap place to stay for Friday and
>Saturday night until he can kill Walker on Sunday.
>
>How an LNer like Bud could have figured this out probably qualifies as
>one of the great miracles of our century.
>
>
>Claiming LHO was headed for the Texas Theater is like claiming he was
>headed to the shoe store.
>
>Lee ducked into the shoe store when a police cruiser passed. He was
>so obvious about the shoe salesman followed him. LHO then ducked a
>second cruiser by entering the the theater without paying.
>
>If Lee's destination was the the theater, then he was a complete idiot
>to try and get in without paying. That's how you don't get in.
>
Well . . . Julia Postal was out of the box office, on the sidewalk
watching the cop cars go up and down Jefferson with their sirens
blaring.
So accosting her and demanding to pay to get into the theater probably
would be a way of attracting attention.
Oswald probably didn't know that Johnny Calvin Brewer was following
him at the time and saw him slip into the theater.
.John
--------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
Robert Harris
<1cdb5b57-77e3-405d...@g7g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
clarkw...@charter.net wrote:
> On Jun 30, 8:10?pm, Robert Harris <reharr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > It makes no sense to imagine Oswald being an innocent patsy. Without
> > benefit of hindsight, the conspirators would expect him to go outside with
> > the other TSBD employees or be in a position where he was seen by other
> > employees. In either case, he would have had a solid alibi.
>
> Obviously, Lee is not an innocent patsy. It certainly has taken a lot
> of years for you to come to this point of view. No insult intended
> because you at least reached it.
Yes, I just thought it up in February.
Of '97.
In fact, you have NEVER seen me claim that Oswald was an innocent patsy,
in this newsgroup or ACJ.
>
>
> >
> > But perhaps, he was another kind of patsy.
> >
> > If Oswald took part in the attack, then doesn't it make sense that he
> > would be told to meet up later with his co-conspirators?
>
> To do what? Celebrate?
To get out of town.
> Lee didn't drink.
>
>
> >And in fact, at
> > the time that he was approached by officer Tippit, he was on a direct
> > course to Jack Ruby's apartment, as this map clearly demonstrates.
> >
> > http://www.jfkhistory.com/pix/mapruby.gif
>
> All Lee's escape route shows is that he was headed south. There is no
> evidence he knew Jack Ruby.
LOL!!
So everyone who saw them together was full of crap, eh? And it doesn't
matter than when Ruby was asked whether he knew Oswald during a polygraph
test, he exhibited obvious signs of deception?
Of course Oswald knew Ruby. Marcellos even admitted that he met with the
two of them prior to the assassination.
>
> >
> > If that was the case, then the others knew the general path that Oswald
> > would take, to get there. It would have been easy for Tippit to intercept
> > him.
> >
> > It has never made sense that Tippit would have randomly chosen to stop
> > Oswald, who was far from the scene of the assassination and did not match
> > the description that Brennon gave to the police.
>
> No. He did not.
> Some officers act on intuition though.
Helluvan intuition, picking out one guy out of thousands.
>
> >
> > And after he was stopped, why couldn't Oswald have cooly talked his way
> > out of the situation, as he did at the depository? After all, Tippit had
> > absolutely no reason to suspect him at that point.
>
> Tippit had a gazillion times less than John McAdams.
>
> >
> > The only logical answer is that Tippit knew exactly who he was looking for
> > and knew the path he would be traveling. And he had a tragically big
> > mouth, letting Oswald know what his plans for him were.
>
> Or the reverse - Lee imagined what Tippit's plans for him were and
> acted.
My best guess is that he just told Oswald to get in the car, and didn't
look like he was trying to find a new friend.
Robert Harris
Anthony Marsh
Such as Hinckley. The jury voted NOT GUILTY. Does anyone watching the
videotape claim that Hinckley was innocent?
curtjester1
> On Jul 5, 12:26 pm, Robert Harris <reharr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > > > And are you aware that Smith also said he saw this guy "a few minutes
> > > > after 1:00 pm"?
>
> > > Please quote from the FBI report where Smith said he saw Oswald "a few
> > > minutes after 1:00 p.m."
>
> >http://spot.acorn.net/JFKplace/09/fp.back_issues/25th_Issue/facts.html
>
> > "William Lawrence Smith was walking east toward the Town and Country
> > Cafe (604 E 10th) a few minutes after 1:00 pm. Smith "felt sure that the
> > man who walked by him going west on 10th St. was Lee Harvey Oswald"
> > (interview of Smith by Brookhart 1/13/64). At this time, approximately
> > 1:04 pm, "Harvey Oswald" was a mile away --- seen by housekeeper Earlene
> > Roberts standing at the bus stop on the corner of Zang and Beckley."
>
> > I didn't find the 1/13/64 report; there are a lot of FBI reports that
> > are not available on the internet. But I find it hard to believe that
> > Armstrong just made it up.
>
> You didn't look very hard, because I linked to that very FBI report
> earlier in this thread. (Smith interviewed Jan. 11, 1964; report
> dictated Jan. 13, 1964; report written Jan. 14, 1964.) Here is my
> post, with the link:
>
>
> And here again is the FBI report:
>
>
> And as you can see, yes, John Armstrong DID make it up.
>
That would be a stretch since you have 3 reports. Armstrong didn't
mention a William Lawrence Smith in his book, Harvey and Lee, but did so
for Mr. Clark, the first witness to give an Oswald-west description. One
would think for five witnesses of seeing Oswald going west, one would have
given a time. Scoggins said he left his cab at 1:05 and went to the
corner bar a 1/2 block away just to get a soft drink for his lunch.
> > > In fact, the report says, "[Smith] said that
> > > he left the job and went to lunch, exact time unrecalled, and notice a
> > > man walking west on 10th Street."
>
> > A "few minutes after 1PM" is not an exact time.
>
> William Lawrence Smith never said "a few minutes after 1 p.m." But you
> treated that nonexistent time estimate as nearly an exact time when
> you said that, based on that timing, Oswald did not have enough time
> to be at the Tippit site.
>
> William Lawrence Smith never gave a time estimate in his FBI interview.- Hide quoted text -
>
But he did say it was over 2 minutes before he reached Town & Country
cafe, and he started at the 500 block of E. Tenth which had to be a good
block down from the Tippit murder scene.
CJ
curtjester1
> On 5 Jul 2009 00:45:36 -0400, curtjester1 <curtjest...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >On Jul 4, 7:58 pm, Anthony Marsh <anthony_ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >> On 7/4/2009 12:11 PM, clarkwilk...@charter.net wrote:
>
> >> >> Exact provocations and what Tippit might have done with this one on
> >> >> assignment can be unsure for sure, but that person Tippit stopped
> >> >> wanted Tippit dead, not just out of his hair.
>
> >> > It was stepping out of his car that got Tippit killed.
>
> >> > Just a thought.
>
> >> > ::Clark:::- Hide quoted text -
>
> >It doesn't mean they weren't, ha. Ruby and Oswald have been highly
> >theorized to have been engaged in homosexual activity. Rose Chermie
> >even said they were shacking buddies.
>
> She said they had been shacking up for years.
>
> But we know that to be untrue.
>
> So what does that say about her credibility?
>
How would one know? There is a lot of corroboration for a Ferrie and
Oswald together. If I knew someone was a outspoken homosexual as Ferrie
was, I sure wouldn't hang around him. Oswald, Shaw (an overt homosexual),
and Ferrie in the car together at Clinton, La. Lots of Ruby-Oswald
sightings before the assassination, and also in the early 60's when 'an
Oswald' was in Russia.
CJ
curtjester1
> On Jul 5, 12:45 am, curtjester1 <curtjest...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > There is 'no' plausible way to get to the Tippit murder scene in the
> > amount of time people have tried to suggest.
>
> I refer you again to this video, in which the route is walked on
> camera in 11 minutes, 10 seconds:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15fRNaFQczc
>
Ha, I was watching where they stopped the stopwatch, and thought for sure
they stopped it at 10th and Patton. That's not the Tippit murder scene.
I did walk it the street longer way and it took me 14minutes so I assure
you I wasn't doing anything but walk it. I don't believe you bought into
the extra distances by this video or the other 'walking west' Oswald
witnesses. That would be an extra 3-4 minutes, ONE WAY if Oswald was
walking from the roominghouse. William Lawrence Smith said it took over
two minutes I believe after passing Oswald to get to the T & C Cafe at
Marsalis and E. Tenth. And Clark's barbershop was even further down.
Also Clark said he passed his barbershop walking west, so he even had to
be FURTHER down than that.
> > On giving a ride to Oswald, a police car
> > stopped in front of the roominghouse while Oswald was in there. Earlene
> > Roberts said their were 2 honks from the vehicle and it just rolled around
> > the corner. The number on the patrol car was just a little off from
> > Tippit's can it very well could have been his since he is the only
> > patrolman that was identified to be on duty and in the vicinity at that
> > time.
>
> Earlene Roberts said the number of the police car was "207". Then she
> said it was "106". Then she said it was "107".
>
Look at it logically. She wouldn't have been studying a car's number.
She probably casually noticed. There was NOONE assigned to that area but
Tippit. There was no one on record being there by radio, than Tippit.
There was no one that came forward that said they were there from DPD.
How can one conclude or even begin to theorize it wasn't Tippit?
CJ
Robert Harris
<95876ed2-cbe4-4f38...@h18g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>,
yeuhd <Needle...@gmail.com> wrote:
Yep, I trusted Armstrong and he was full of crap. My bad, as they say.
But I still put little weight on a witness who undoubtedly, saw dozens
of people then and two months later, had to be shown a photograph to
identify Oswald.
He would have been a hundred times stronger if he claimed that he saw
the same guy shooting Tippit, but there was absolutely no reason why he
should have paid more attention to the guy he claims he saw, than anyone
else that day.
Tell me something. Do you put the same credence in witnesses who saw
Oswald and Ruby together under much better conditions?
Robert Harris
yeuhd
> On Jul 5, 7:16 pm, yeuhd <NeedlesWax...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Jul 5, 12:26 pm, Robert Harris <reharr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > I didn't find the 1/13/64 report; there are a lot of FBI reports that
> > > are not available on the internet. But I find it hard to believe that
> > > Armstrong just made it up.
>
> > You didn't look very hard, because I linked to that very FBI report
> > earlier in this thread. (Smith interviewed Jan. 11, 1964; report
> > dictated Jan. 13, 1964; report written Jan. 14, 1964.) Here is my
> > post, with the link:
>
> >http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/msg/a75ea88be5c9...
>
> > And here again is the FBI report:
>
> >http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=107...
>
> > And as you can see, yes, John Armstrong DID make it up.
>
> That would be a stretch since you have 3 reports.
No, there is only one report of the interview with William Lawrence
Smith.
> Armstrong didn't
> mention a William Lawrence Smith in his book, Harvey and Lee,
John Armstrong certainly mentions William Lawrence Smith in the link
you supplied. Here it is again:
http://spot.acorn.net/JFKplace/09/fp.back_issues/25th_Issue/facts.html
"William Lawrence Smith was walking east toward the Town and Country
Cafe (604 E 10th) a few minutes after 1:00 pm."
And he gives as his source the FBI report. But that FBI report has no
time estimate in it.
> > William Lawrence Smith never gave a time estimate in his FBI interview.- Hide quoted text -
>
> But he did say it was over 2 minutes before he reached Town & Country
> cafe, and he started at the 500 block of E. Tenth which had to be a good
> block down from the Tippit murder scene.
No, Smith did not say it was "over 2 minutes" before he reached the
cafe. He gave no time estimate. Read the FBI report. Once again, here
is the link:
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10730&relPageId=86
yeuhd
> On Jul 5, 12:30 pm, yeuhd <NeedlesWax...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jul 5, 12:45 am, curtjester1 <curtjest...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > There is 'no' plausible way to get to the Tippit murder scene in the
> > > amount of time people have tried to suggest.
>
> > I refer you again to this video, in which the route is walked on
> > camera in 11 minutes, 10 seconds:
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15fRNaFQczc
>
> Ha, I was watching where they stopped the stopwatch, and thought for sure
> they stopped it at 10th and Patton. That's not the Tippit murder scene.
They stop the timer when the Oswald stand-in reaches the spot where
Tippit's car stopped, 120 feet east of Patton. Not at the corner of
10th and Patton. Watch the video again at 7:16. The red brick house
with the green trim that he stops in front of is two lots east of
Patton. (Neither of the two houses that were between Patton and the
Tippit shooting site in 1963 are there today.)
> I did walk it the street longer way and it took me 14minutes so I assure
> you I wasn't doing anything but walk it. I don't believe you bought into
> the extra distances by this video or the other 'walking west' Oswald
> witnesses. That would be an extra 3-4 minutes, ONE WAY if Oswald was
Dale Myers writes,
"…Bugliosi and Drenas, as well as many other researchers who have
rejected the notion that Oswald was traveling westbound immediately
before the shooting, fail to realize that the shortest route between
the Beckley rooming house and the Tippit murder scene is not one that
has Oswald circling the area of the shooting scene (as the Drenas
route does). The shortest route would be the one that has Oswald walk
right past the scene where he would kill Tippit, then, double-back on
his route.
"The shortest route, which ends with Oswald headed westbound on Tenth,
would have Oswald leaving his rooming house headed south on Beckley to
Davis, east to Patton, southeast on Patton to Tenth, and east on Tenth
to a point near Marsalis Avenue. At that point, Oswald would double
back on his route, heading back west on Tenth to the scene of the
Tippit shooting at 404 E. Tenth. The total time for the trip would be
about 13.5 minutes – which fits the time period available."
> William Lawrence Smith said it took over
> two minutes I believe after passing Oswald to get to the T & C Cafe at
> Marsalis and E. Tenth.
No, he did not. Read the FBI report.
> Look at it logically. She wouldn't have been studying a car's number.
> She probably casually noticed. There was NOONE assigned to that area but
> Tippit. There was no one on record being there by radio, than Tippit.
> There was no one that came forward that said they were there from DPD.
> How can one conclude or even begin to theorize it wasn't Tippit?
Two of Earlene Roberts' employers — Mrs. Johnson, the owner of the
Beckley rooming house, and Floyd Alexander — said Roberts was in the
habit of making things up to get attention.
P.S. There is no such word as "noone".
Sandy McCroskey
The verdict was "not guilty by reason of insanity," and of course the
insanity defense concedes that the defendant committed the act(s) in
question.
curtjester1
> On Jul 5, 9:32 pm, curtjester1 <curtjest...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 5, 7:16 pm, yeuhd <NeedlesWax...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Jul 5, 12:26 pm, Robert Harris <reharr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > I didn't find the 1/13/64 report; there are a lot of FBI reports that
> > > > are not available on the internet. But I find it hard to believe that
> > > > Armstrong just made it up.
>
> > > You didn't look very hard, because I linked to that very FBI report
> > > earlier in this thread. (Smith interviewed Jan. 11, 1964; report
> > > dictated Jan. 13, 1964; report written Jan. 14, 1964.) Here is my
> > > post, with the link:
>
> > >http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/msg/a75ea88be5c9...
>
> > > And here again is the FBI report:
>
> > >http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=107...
>
> > > And as you can see, yes, John Armstrong DID make it up.
>
> > That would be a stretch since you have 3 reports.
>
> No, there is only one report of the interview with William Lawrence
> Smith.
>
> > Armstrong didn't
> > mention a William Lawrence Smith in his book, Harvey and Lee,
>
> John Armstrong certainly mentions William Lawrence Smith in the link
> you supplied. Here it is again:
>
> http://spot.acorn.net/JFKplace/09/fp.back_issues/25th_Issue/facts.html
>
> "William Lawrence Smith was walking east toward the Town and Country
> Cafe (604 E 10th) a few minutes after 1:00 pm."
>
> And he gives as his source the FBI report. But that FBI report has no
> time estimate in it.
>
Funny *disclaimer* on the 14th report on the second page, about a
seemed *retraction* about not being sure of the *"directions"*.
> > > William Lawrence Smith never gave a time estimate in his FBI interview.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > But he did say it was over 2 minutes before he reached Town & Country
> > cafe, and he started at the 500 block of E. Tenth which had to be a good
> > block down from the Tippit murder scene.
>
> No, Smith did not say it was "over 2 minutes" before he reached the
> cafe. He gave no time estimate. Read the FBI report. Once again, here
> is the link:
>
> http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=107...- Hide quoted text -
>
Ahh, you are correct. I misread which is just a matter of syntax. I
assure you though that those blocks are a 'way's' since I walked down
East Tenth. It actually 'J's' back into East Jefferson when you go
past Marsalis. The next light up a block up is Ewing coming up from
the other side of Jefferson. If you take the times you give with your
youtuber's, you will have to realize that they took a different route
that took them down Denver to come out at E. Tenth, and that time was
too far out of the realm of reality for their supposed Oswald walk to
have made. If I am not mistaken, I believe Denver is where Smith and
Burt would have been. Be that as it may, the walk from where
Jefferson and E. Tenth intersect to the Tippit murder scene is quite a
lengthy walk from one has been there. Whoever has the thought of a
Oswald roominghouse walk-Tippit murder kill from the known path the
killer made from walking west, has not got the right man.
Noticeable here, if you are trying to make a case is, the interview
Mr. Clark gave to SA Carl Underhill on 11/29/63. Why would one want
to disregard this? (Mr. Clark was the barber who was cutting hair,
when 'Oswald' came by his shop further down from the east walking
west..."a little after one".) Aren't you looking for a way out and
trying to discredit, rather than looking for truth?
CJ
Robert Harris
<f9b14db1-bb72-45e0...@o7g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
Bud <sirs...@fast.net> wrote:
> On Jul 5, 12:32 pm, Robert Harris <reharr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > In article
> > <9d3362f8-67de-4ab2-8ba9-2d0314335...@i18g2000pro.googlegroups.com>,
> >
> > clarkwilk...@charter.net wrote:
> > > On Jun 30, 9:17 pm, Robert Harris <reharr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > It makes no sense that Tippit could have provoked him to draw his weapon
> > > > unless Tippit said something that was very provocative.
> >
> > > > Robert Harris- Hide quoted text -
> >
> > > He opened his car door and got out.
> > > Whatever Lee was selling, Tippit wasn't buying.
> >
> > Or visa versa.
>
> Silly to think these are equal propositions. Oswald is the one who
> committed the capital crime(s), Tippit was the on-duty officer of the
> law.
Two men were in charge of the only first hand investigations of this
crime, Bud - DPD Chief Currey and J. Edgar Hoover. Both realized that it
was a conspiracy - as did the vast majority of others who investigated
the crime and as did the vast majority of people throughout the world.
If Oswald was part of a conspiracy, as I think he was, then he had to be
silenced so that he would not identify the others.
The fact that Tippit singled him out from numerous others, as he was
walking toward Ruby's apartment suggests very strongly, that Tippit knew
who he was looking for and where. And the fact that Oswald thought he
needed to kill him, tells us that Tippit was not there to ask routine
questions.
Robert Harris
Robert Harris
<52a2cf4b-e5c0-4e0d...@b14g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,
Bud <sirs...@fast.net> wrote:
Nonsense - if his intention was to kill Oswald, he would not do it in
front of a crowd. He would want to take him somewhere where there were no
witnesses.
He probably didn't realize that Oswald had a gun.
Anthony Marsh
> On Jul 5, 12:48 am, John McAdams<john.mcad...@marquette.edu> wrote:
>> On 5 Jul 2009 00:45:36 -0400, curtjester1<curtjest...@hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Jul 4, 7:58 pm, Anthony Marsh<anthony_ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>> On 7/4/2009 12:11 PM, clarkwilk...@charter.net wrote:
>>
>>>>>> Exact provocations and what Tippit might have done with this one on
>>>>>> assignment can be unsure for sure, but that person Tippit stopped
>>>>>> wanted Tippit dead, not just out of his hair.
>>
>>>>> It was stepping out of his car that got Tippit killed.
>>
>>>>> Just a thought.
>>
>>>>> ::Clark:::- Hide quoted text -
>>
>>> It doesn't mean they weren't, ha. Ruby and Oswald have been highly
>>> theorized to have been engaged in homosexual activity. Rose Chermie
>>> even said they were shacking buddies.
>>
>> She said they had been shacking up for years.
>>
>> But we know that to be untrue.
>>
>> So what does that say about her credibility?
>>
>
> How would one know? There is a lot of corroboration for a Ferrie and
> Oswald together. If I knew someone was a outspoken homosexual as Ferrie
> was, I sure wouldn't hang around him. Oswald, Shaw (an overt homosexual),
The CIA knew that Shaw was an outspoken homosexual and they loved to
hang around him.
yeuhd
False. Officer W. D. Mentzel (Unit 91) was assigned to police radio
districts 91 (which included both 1026 N. Beckley and 10th & Patton)
and 92 from 7:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. on Nov. 22, 1963. (25 H 909) He was
dispatched to the Tippit shooting.
curtjester1
That isn't quite true. If you use google maps, to get from the
roominghouse to get to past N. Marsalis would use Denver as the cut
through street. Check Google Maps.
> "The shortest route, which ends with Oswald headed westbound on Tenth,
> would have Oswald leaving his rooming house headed south on Beckley to
> Davis, east to Patton, southeast on Patton to Tenth, and east on Tenth
> to a point near Marsalis Avenue. At that point, Oswald would double
> back on his route, heading back west on Tenth to the scene of the
> Tippit shooting at 404 E. Tenth. The total time for the trip would be
> about 13.5 minutes – which fits the time period available."
>
Patently false. First one thing is mistaken. He uses N. Marsalis as a
'far east' point, when the first business 'Oswald' past was further down
the street. That would be the barbershop close to Lancaster. The time
Myers tries to pawn off is also misleading. Google maps has the Tippit
murder scene to Clark's barbershop at 5 minutes walking. It has the
distance to the barbershop at 1/4 the distance that it is from Oswald's
roominghouse to the Tippit Murder scene. The estimated time to walk to
the Tippit murder scene from the roominghouse is 16 minutes, and the
estimated time to walk to the barbershop at 620 East Tenth is about 20
minutes. Then again, there is no way to assert that the barbershop was or
could be the farthest west he could have gone, since he came from further
east to go past the barbershop.
> > William Lawrence Smith said it took over
> > two minutes I believe after passing Oswald to get to the T & C Cafe at
> > Marsalis and E. Tenth.
>
> No, he did not. Read the FBI report.
>
I addressed the syntax mistake, but the fact is it would have taken
him at least that long to get to the T & C cafe from his worksite.
> > Look at it logically. She wouldn't have been studying a car's number.
> > She probably casually noticed. There was NOONE assigned to that area but
> > Tippit. There was no one on record being there by radio, than Tippit.
> > There was no one that came forward that said they were there from DPD.
> > How can one conclude or even begin to theorize it wasn't Tippit?
>
> Two of Earlene Roberts' employers — Mrs. Johnson, the owner of the
> Beckley rooming house, and Floyd Alexander — said Roberts was in the
> habit of making things up to get attention.
>
Exactly, that's why Oswald never came back to the roominghouse. Is
that what you want us to believe??
> P.S. There is no such word as "noone".
nobody cares if one uses no-one, noone, or no one.
CJ
curtjester1
Well, you have 3 dates on one document, and do you have proof that there
was no other interviews by the FBI with W.L. Smith? Did anyone check the
SA interview with Clark, the barber, on 11/29/63 by a Carl Underwood?
There also is no indication that Armstrong was so precise in his efforts
as not to make mistakes either. On the same page in Harvey and Lee, he
confuses Whaley for Scoggins, and has Oswald being 2 blocks north of
Ruby's in one account and 3 blocks north in another.
CJ
Bud
>
>
>
> Bud <sirsl...@fast.net> wrote:
> > On Jul 5, 12:32 pm, Robert Harris <reharr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > In article
> > > <9d3362f8-67de-4ab2-8ba9-2d0314335...@i18g2000pro.googlegroups.com>,
>
> > > clarkwilk...@charter.net wrote:
> > > > On Jun 30, 9:17 pm, Robert Harris <reharr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > It makes no sense that Tippit could have provoked him to draw his weapon
> > > > > unless Tippit said something that was very provocative.
>
> > > > > Robert Harris- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > He opened his car door and got out.
> > > > Whatever Lee was selling, Tippit wasn't buying.
>
> > > Or visa versa.
>
> > Silly to think these are equal propositions. Oswald is the one who
> > committed the capital crime(s), Tippit was the on-duty officer of the
> > law.
>
> Two men were in charge of the only first hand investigations of this
> crime, Bud - DPD Chief Currey and J. Edgar Hoover. Both realized that it
> was a conspiracy - as did the vast majority of others who investigated
> the crime and as did the vast majority of people throughout the world.
What led them to believe there was a conspiracy?
> If Oswald was part of a conspiracy, as I think he was, then he had to be
> silenced so that he would not identify the others.
No, thats stupid thinking. In the real world, you can`t just keep
heaping complexity onto a situation, eventually it will collapse from the
weight of it.
> The fact that Tippit singled him out from numerous others, as he was
> walking toward Ruby's apartment suggests very strongly, that Tippit knew
> who he was looking for and where.
No, it really doesn`t, thats a retard conclusion. You`d make the victim
out to be the perpetrator, based on nothing but retard speculation. The
default answer, until you can put something besides "I figure it musta
happened like this", is that Tippit stopped the youngish slender five foot
nine white male because of the similar description being broadcast over
the police radio. You disregard the obvious to get to the incredible. You
do this because you are retarded.
>And the fact that Oswald thought he
> needed to kill him, tells us that Tippit was not there to ask routine
> questions.
That Tippit spoke to Oswald first through the open car window should
show any thinking person that the encounter started with the asking of
routine questions.
In my experience, when cops *know* a person as a bad guy, they don`t
give a fuck about anything, they jump the curb and pull in front of the
person on the sidewalk, they pile out of the car aggressively, ect. When
they see a person they think might be a person of interest, they pull up
and question, to get a better feel if their suspicions are justified.
Bud
Right. The plan is to arrest him and put him in handcuffs in front
of a bunch of people.
>He would want to take him somewhere where there were no
> witnesses.
What could possibly be his justification for killing a person in
custody?
> He probably didn't realize that Oswald had a gun.
I suppose while we are baselessly speculating, we can say that
whoever killed Kennedy did so in self defense.
yeuhd
> On Jul 6, 12:39 am, yeuhd <NeedlesWax...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jul 5, 9:32 pm, curtjester1 <curtjest...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Jul 5, 7:16 pm, yeuhd <NeedlesWax...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > On Jul 5, 12:26 pm, Robert Harris <reharr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > > I didn't find the 1/13/64 report; there are a lot of FBI reports that
> > > > > are not available on the internet. But I find it hard to believe that
> > > > > Armstrong just made it up.
>
> > > > You didn't look very hard, because I linked to that very FBI report
> > > > earlier in this thread. (Smith interviewed Jan. 11, 1964; report
> > > > dictated Jan. 13, 1964; report written Jan. 14, 1964.) Here is my
> > > > post, with the link:
>
> > > >http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/msg/a75ea88be5c9...
>
> > > > And here again is the FBI report:
>
> > > >http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=107...
>
> > > > And as you can see, yes, John Armstrong DID make it up.
>
> > > That would be a stretch since you have 3 reports.
>
> > No, there is only one report of the interview with William Lawrence
> > Smith.
>
> What about the report the day earlier, that Armstrong quotes from?
There is only one FBI report. FBI SA Brookhart interviewed Smith on
January 11, 1964, dictated his report on January 13, and the report was
typed up on January 14. You'll find the same pattern throughout the FBI
reports: interview date, dictation date, typing date. One report.
Anthony Marsh
No, prove that Tippit intended to arrest Oswald. At that point he had
only grounds to question him.
>
>> He would want to take him somewhere where there were no
>> witnesses.
>
> What could possibly be his justification for killing a person in
> custody?
What's your problem? The police do it all the time.
Robert Harris
<1de8bb47-db72-4c40...@b15g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,
Bud <sirs...@fast.net> wrote:
Currey was very explicit about that. He said the direction of the blood
and other material that was blown to the rear, proved that at least one
of the shots came from the front.
And he was right about that. In the Zapruder film, it is easy to see,
that nothing was blown to the rear at 313. It is equally easy to see
that massive damage to the back of the head, was inflicted during later
frames.
Hoover was very tight with the mafia and he was privy to phonetaps in
which they talked about the upcoming assassination.
>
> > If Oswald was part of a conspiracy, as I think he was, then he had to be
> > silenced so that he would not identify the others.
>
> No, thats stupid thinking. In the real world, you can`t just keep
> heaping complexity onto a situation, eventually it will collapse from the
> weight of it.
There is nothing complex about killing a witness who was bound to
eventually, turn them in. The mafia did that kind of thing in countless
other cases.
Why was such a thing too complex in the JFK case but not too complex in
a hundred other mafia hits???
>
> > The fact that Tippit singled him out from numerous others, as he was
> > walking toward Ruby's apartment suggests very strongly, that Tippit knew
> > who he was looking for and where.
>
> No, it really doesn`t, thats a retard conclusion.
ROFLMAO!!
A "retard" conclusion???
Am I talking to a grown man or are one of your children using your
account, Bud??
It is wildly improbable that the only person Tippit randomly stopped
that day was Oswald. And getting into a shootout had to have been the
very last thing that Oswald wanted.
Tippit had to have said something that was threatening, that convinced
Oswald that he couldn't talk his way out of the situation.
Your theory that all this was random coincidence, is what is "retarded"
Bud:-)
Robert Harris
yeuhd
> On Jul 6, 12:13 pm, yeuhd <NeedlesWax...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Dale Myers writes,
>
> > "…Bugliosi and Drenas, as well as many other researchers who have
> > rejected the notion that Oswald was traveling westbound immediately
> > before the shooting, fail to realize that the shortest route between
> > the Beckley rooming house and the Tippit murder scene is not one that
> > has Oswald circling the area of the shooting scene (as the Drenas
> > route does). The shortest route would be the one that has Oswald walk
> > right past the scene where he would kill Tippit, then, double-back on
> > his route.
>
> That isn't quite true. If you use google maps, to get from the
> roominghouse to get to past N. Marsalis would use Denver as the cut
> through street. Check Google Maps.
>
> > "The shortest route, which ends with Oswald headed westbound on Tenth,
> > would have Oswald leaving his rooming house headed south on Beckley to
> > Davis, east to Patton, southeast on Patton to Tenth, and east on Tenth
> > to a point near Marsalis Avenue. At that point, Oswald would double
> > back on his route, heading back west on Tenth to the scene of the
> > Tippit shooting at 404 E. Tenth. The total time for the trip would be
> > about 13.5 minutes – which fits the time period available."
>
> Patently false. First one thing is mistaken. He uses N. Marsalis as a
> 'far east' point, when the first business 'Oswald' past was further down
> the street. That would be the barbershop close to Lancaster.
Dale Myers rightly doesn't use that alleged Oswald sighting, because
the claimant Mr. Clark said he saw Oswald walk past the barber shop on
the *morning* of November 22.
Vincent Bugliosi, "Reclaiming History", endnotes, p. 46:
An Oswald-was-proceeding-west witness whom no one pays attention to is a
man with the last name of Clark who worked at the Tenth Street Barbershop
near the corner of Tenth and Ewing, seven blocks east of Tenth and Patton.
One James A. Barnes telephoned the FBI on November 29, 1963, to inform the
bureau that Clark had told him that “on the morning of November 22”
(which automatically eliminates Oswald, since we know where he was that
morning) a man “he would bet his life on” was Oswald passed his shop
“in a great hurry.” The FBI took “no action” on the phone message.
(FBI File 89-43, Memo from FBI agent Carl Underhill to SAC, Dallas,
November 29, 1963)
> The time
> Myers tries to pawn off is also misleading. Google maps has the Tippit
> murder scene to Clark's barbershop at 5 minutes walking. It has the
> distance to the barbershop at 1/4 the distance that it is from Oswald's
> roominghouse to the Tippit Murder scene. The estimated time to walk to
> the Tippit murder scene from the roominghouse is 16 minutes, and the
> estimated time to walk to the barbershop at 620 East Tenth is about 20
> minutes.
The distance from 1026 N. Beckley to 404 E. 10th Street is 0.85 miles
via Beckley to Davis to Crawford to 10th Street. Walked at 4 miles per
hour, the time is 12 minutes 45 seconds. The Oswald stand-in seen in
the video linked to above walks the route in 11 minutes 10 seconds
(4.6 mph). Here it is again:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15fRNaFQczc
Google Map's 16-minute estimate is based on a leisurely 3.2 mph stroll.
Anthony Marsh
I don't see any need for Tippit to kill Oswald unless Tippit was part of
the conspiracy and I don't see any evidence for Tippit being part of the
conspiracy. How would they plan that far in advance that Tippit be
picked at random to fill in for missing squads in the Oak Cliff area and
that Oswald would be there then?
> He probably didn't realize that Oswald had a gun.
>
Not if Oswald had it in his waistband under his jacket.
Bud
You really should learn to follow a discussion. It is Harris`s
contention that Tippit was going to transport Oswald elsewhere to kill
him.
> >> He would want to take him somewhere where there were no
> >> witnesses.
>
> > What could possibly be his justification for killing a person in
> > custody?
>
> What's your problem? The police do it all the time.
You know of cases where a policeman took a person off the street in
front of people, and took him somewhere else and executed them?
tomnln
Name the exact Officer who took that description from the witness?
Brennan didn't give the description to Sorrels because, Sorrels didn't return until 12:50 or, 12:55.
It wasn't Inspector Sawyer because when the dis[atcher asked about clothing, Sawyer said,
"Current witness can't remember that." (Volume VI page 321)
"yeuhd" <Needle...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:e87f4b88-6b02-48f1...@t13g2000yqt.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 30, 11:10 pm, Robert Harris <
> It has never made sense that Tippit would have randomly chosen to stop
> Oswald, who was far from the scene of the assassination and did not match
> the description that Brennon gave to the police.
the police radio, he was close enough to it. The description said a
white male about 5 feet 10 inches, Oswald was 5 feet 9 inches. The
description said about 30, Oswald was 24, and with his receding
hairline looked older. And Oswald indeed had a "slender build".
And it's not unlikely that Oswald was walking fast, wherever he was
going.
Two groups of witnesses saw Oswald on 10th Street. One group saw him
walking west (towards Patton), the other group saw him walking or
facing east (away from Patton). Dale K. Myers makes a good case that
Oswald may have turned around when he saw Tippit's squad car
approaching, and began walking in the opposite direction.
See "Why Tippit stopped Oswald" about a third the way down this page:
http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2008/11/with-malice-tippit-murder-45-years.html
> out of the situation, as he did at the depository? After all, Tippit had
> absolutely no reason to suspect him at that point.
"Excuse me, do you live around here?"
"No."
"Can I ask where you were going?"
"Just down the street to the movies."
"You turned around and started walking the other way as I drove up.
You looked like you were in a hurry."
Oswald shrugs.
"Do you have some I.D. on you?"
"Ah…no."
"Okay, could you wait right there?"
Tippit gets out of his car…