Debating The John F. Kennedy Assassination (Part 51)
David Von Pein
-----------------------------------------------------------------
SUBJECT -- The JFK Assassination: The Ongoing "Lone Assassin vs.
Conspiracy" Debate.
FEATURED TEXT -- Archived JFK Forum Messages From November 2006,
December 2006, February 2007, and March 2007.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
CTer (A CONSPIRACY THEORIST) -- Lattimer believed Connally was hit at
Z224.
DVP (DAVID VON PEIN) -- Which he unquestionably was.....
Governor Connally's right shoulder is being driven forward by the
bullet at precisely Zapruder Film frame #224:
http://216.122.129.112/dc/user_files/6892.gif
Z225-Z226, showing the simultaneous movement of both victims' right
arms (Connally's right wrist has just been hit by Bullet CE399 fired
from Lee Harvey Oswald's gun):
http://users.skynet.be/mar/SBT/Images2/225-226%20Full.gif
And other signs of a bullet strike to Connally just after Z224
(shoulders both "hunch up"/"flinch"; open mouth; look of distress;
lapel movement):
http://216.122.129.112/dc/user_files/7731.gif
-------------------------------------------
CTer -- Lattimer needed to explain why Kennedy was reacting to this
shot within 1/18 of a second at Z225. As this is reportedly too fast
for a voluntary response, he had to do some looking. Voila! It was an
involuntary response, the "Thorburn's" response.
DVP -- JFK hasn't even started moving his hands/arms upward by Z225;
that activity begins in Z226. But the sum total of the evidence
indicates that the bullet almost certainly had to have struck him at
precisely Z224.
And this "sum total" also indicates (without much doubt) that the
bullet which struck JFK in the back had to be Bullet CE399, which was
a bullet positively fired from Oswald's rifle, which was a rifle that
was located on the 6th Floor of the TSBD Building at the time of the
assassination.
Why?
Because:
Connally was definitely hit at Z224 (IMO and in the opinion of many
others)....and Connally was hit by just one bullet during the
shooting....and that one bullet was positively CE399 which was found
near JBC's stretcher in Parkland (a location where Kennedy's stretcher
was never located on 11/22/63)....and given the point in time when
Connally was hit by 399 (and armed with the knowledge that 399
definitely came out of Oswald's gun, which was on the 6th Floor of the
TSBD at the time), there is no way that CE399 gets to Connally's back
WITHOUT GOING THROUGH KENNEDY'S BODY FIRST.
~Mark VII~
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/00a4ecbb835edc89
-------------------------------------------
CTer -- The problem was that the {Thorburn's} position in the old
drawing was the position assumed by the victim after several days. A
second problem was that Kennedy's arms are not locked in that position
and drop considerably over the next few seconds.
DVP -- I really couldn't care less about "Thorburn's". It's a moot
point. It just doesn't matter. The main fact is: Kennedy is REACTING
TO A BULLET HITTING HIM. Whether it be "Thorburn's" or not...who
cares?
If Dr. Lattimer wants to believe in Thorburn's...good for him. I'm on
the fence regarding that unprovable theory in this (JFK) case.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/85e0bb6bdb74a8df
-------------------------------------------
CTer -- The Jefferies photo {film} shows this {jacket} bulge.
Importantly, however, none of these photos show the material extending
above Kennedy's collar, and draping back down, as Lattimer depicts in
his exhibit. Furthermore, the bulge in the clothing was not
significant in the middle of Kennedy's back, as demonstrated by the
color Croft photo.... <snip> ...
DVP -- I'll snip the rest of your message here, because, like
"Thorburn's", it's meaningless when any kind of common sense is
applied to the sum total of evidence re. the shooting.
The basic facts add up to the inescapable conclusion of:
ONE single bullet (the SAME bullet) passed through the ONE bullet hole
in Kennedy's jacket...and the ONE hole in Kennedy's shirt...and went
on into the ONE hole in Kennedy's upper back (14 cm. below the tip of
the right mastoid process, just like Dr. J. Thornton Boswell said on
his Face Sheet at the autopsy). ....
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/facesheet.jpg
What other (logical) conclusion CAN be arrived at given the above "3
Holes = 1 Bullet Did All That Damage" evidence?
Faked autopsy photo? ---
Nope. Many, many experts say you're wrong if you want to start up that
nonsense again.
More than one bullet hit JFK in the back? The clothes are faked? ---
Then where are the OTHER holes that would equate to a second back
shot?
Surely you don't want to wander down that dark, murky, unprovable dirt
road....do you?
What's left then? Aliens are involved perhaps?
Can the CTers who love to bellow "THE HOLES DO NOT LINE UP" provide
SOME type of reasonable alternative to the obvious Occam's-like
scenario I've laid out above? I'd love to hear it.
-------------------------------------------
CTer -- Do you believe the entrance {wound on JFK's back} was at T1,
or was the HSCA FPP mistaken?
DVP -- The wound is "14 cm. below the tip of the right mastoid
process". Always was. Which is very close to EITHER "T1" or
"C7" (which is where a lot of other experts place the entry wound).
Seems like a lot of hair-splitting to me. .....
www.pediatric-orthopedics.com/Topics/Bones/Vertebrae/RearNeckOcc.jpg
Chad Zimmerman's excellent SBT demonstrations show the back wound
(based on the autopsy photo and the Boswell measurements) to
positively be HIGHER than the throat (exit) wound, with an approx.
angle of declination that would generally line back up to meet the SBT
(17-degree downward) requirements to have that bullet coming out of
Lee Harvey Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano from the 6th-Floor Sniper's
Nest at approx. Zapruder Frame #224.
Starting with the throat wound, draw a line (angled upward at 17
degrees toward Kennedy's back) on this "turned-sideways" autopsy photo
below. Where would the wound be located via such an experiment?
Answer: In the upper back of course, just where the autopsy photo of
JFK's back shows the wound to be.....
http://www.jfklancer.com/photos/autopsy_slideshow/images/jfk_zeroang.jpg
http://www.jfklancer.com/photos/autopsy_slideshow/images/BE5_HI.jpg
-------------------------------------------
CTer -- Garrison wanted the truth.
DVP -- That must be why Mr. Garrison continued to spout the silliest
of theories as late as 1967, such as still suggesting to the gullible
that Lee Oswald might have been in the Book Depository doorway during
the assassination (which is a notion that had been thoroughly
dismantled by '67 when Garrison was still spouting it).
Garrison didn't want the truth -- he WANTED a conspiracy. Period.
More on King-Kook Garrison:
http://www.jfklancer.com/Garrison2.html
-------------------------------------------
CTer -- Look at the testimony of Virginia Davis. Again and again she
says that she called the cops first, then saw the gunman.
DVP -- Which is physically not possible, of course. (Unless Oswald
decided to stop on 10th Street and pick his ass for a few minutes
before high-tailing it toward Patton Avenue.)
-------------------------------------------
CTer -- They {Barbara & Virginia Davis} saw only the man with Tippit's
gun chasing the shooter.
DVP -- And yet BOTH women positively identified Lee Harvey Oswald as
the man they saw cutting across their yard while emptying shells from
a revolver.
Did Ted Callaway look like Lee Oswald? Hardly.
Plus: Did Callaway have any reason to cut across the Davis' front and
side yards (moving toward Jefferson Blvd.) to reach Scoggins' cab? Is
there any evidence that he made such a journey on November 22?
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0130a.htm
Plus: Was Callaway dumping shells out of Tippit's gun as he ran?
You'd better think up another "It Couldn't Have Been LHO" hunk of
kookshit. This one is beyond moribund.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/85290a6703a31221
-------------------------------------------
CTer -- You repeat several times in your post that CE399 was the
bullet that hit Connally. Where do you get that?
DVP -- Three places:
1.) The evidence in the case, of course.
2.) Common sense.
3.) By not being a conspiracy kook who screams "It's Planted" at the
drop of a hat.
Given the above three parameters/reasons, CE399 had to have gotten
inside that hospital BY WAY OF JOHN CONNALLY'S BODY.
The alternative is to sink into the CT morass, which involves making
the extraordinary leap of faith (without a shred of proof) that 399
was "planted" inside Parkland Hospital.
I'd prefer to use up the non-extraordinary explanations first, thank
you.
And since we pretty much know where on Elm Street the two victims were
located in the car when they were wounded (give or take a few inches
one way or the other)....and since we know that CE399 came out of the
barrel of Lee Oswald's C2766 Carcano rifle....and since we know that
C2766 was found on the 6th Floor of the TSBD shortly after the
shooting....and since we know that a man was seen firing a rifle out
of the southeast corner window of that 6th Floor during the
assassination....
....It can therefore be reasonably ascertained that President Kennedy
also had to have been struck by Bullet 399 as it made it's way into
Parkland Hospital by way of Governor John Connally's body.
There is no way that that bullet gets to Connally (who was hit by only
ONE bullet) without first going through the person sitting almost
directly behind the Governor. No way. ....
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/images/SOH_1061.jpg
But please....keep trying to avoid the Occam's-like solution. It's
always best for conspiracy-loving kooks to ignore the simplest and
most-likely-to-be-correct solution, in favor of extraordinary and
unprovable scenarios and wild theories filled with cloak-and-dagger
shenanigans and grandiose plots, which include:
Bullet-planting, bullet-switching, witness coercion, autopsy fakery,
photo fakery, and a vast cover-up being orchestrated by a Government
full of nothing but rotten, lying scumbags who want to hide a
conspiracy of some kind...even though the world would NOT have
exploded into a massive fireball even if the conspiracy they're
attempting to hide was revealed to the public.
But for some reason, ALL of these covert agents MUST frame ONLY Lee
Harvey Oswald. Perhaps the biggest unanswered question to date
regarding this type of supposed one-patsy "cover-up" operation is --
Why?
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/4b8dae7b150da043
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/8ee3ea6cfa4a58c9
-------------------------------------------
CTer -- The man who found the bullet believed the bullet came from
another stretcher.
DVP -- The man (Darrell Tomlinson) told the Warren Commission "I can't
be positive" when discussing the stretchers. Let's have a look:
ARLEN SPECTER -- "Now, Mr. Tomlinson, are you sure that it was
stretcher A that you took out of the elevator and not stretcher B?"
DARRELL TOMLINSON -- "Well, really, I can't be positive, just to be
perfectly honest about it, I can't be positive, because I really
didn't pay that much attention to it. The stretcher was on the
elevator and I pushed it off of there and I believe we made one or two
calls up before I straightened out the stretcher up against the wall."
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/tomlinso.htm
Also-- If the bullet had actually been planted (as most CTers firmly
believe), why not plant that bullet right inside the President's
limousine, instead of on the WRONG stretcher (per CTers) inside the
hospital....which is a location where it might not ever be found?
-------------------------------------------
CTer -- Let's quit the game of twister. Was Kennedy leaning forward or
was the bullet deflected?
DVP -- Neither. Of course. The SBT doesn't require a "leaning"
President; nor does it require a "deflected" bullet.
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh18/pages/WH_Vol18_0055b.jpg
http://jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/concl2.htm
Wanna twist some more? :)
http://www.peacebuttons.info/E-News/images/ChubbyChecker_000.jpg
-------------------------------------------
CTer -- Anyone who thinks Oswald wasn't the "patsy" he claimed to be
is a fool.
DVP -- On the other hand......
"If Lee Harvey Oswald had nothing to do with President Kennedy's
assassination and was framed....this otherwise independent and defiant
would-be revolutionary, who disliked taking orders from anyone, turned
out to be the most willing and cooperative frame-ee in the history of
mankind!!!
"Because the evidence of his guilt is so monumental, that he could
have just as well gone around with a large sign on his back declaring
in bold letters 'I Just Murdered President John F. Kennedy'!!!
"Anyone...ANYONE who would believe that Lee Harvey Oswald was
innocent, would believe someone who told them that they heard a cow
speaking the Spanish language!" -- Vincent Bugliosi
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/b3a8181c73cfa095