Did Bullet CE399 Deposit "Too Many Fragments" Inside John Connally's Body?
David Von Pein
STRETCHER BULLET (CE399) COULD NOT HAVE POSSIBLY DEPOSITED ALL OF THE
FRAGMENTS THAT WERE SEEN INSIDE GOVERNOR JOHN CONNALLY'S BODY ON
NOVEMBER 22, 1963.
ARE THOSE CONSPIRACISTS CORRECT?
HARDLY.....
=======================================================
Warren Commission Exhibit #CE399 (the "Stretcher Bullet" found by
Darrell Tomlinson inside Parkland Hospital prior to 2:00 PM on the
afternoon of November 22nd, 1963) has been a major focus of
controversy since JFK's murder in Dallas.
Conspiracy advocates claim that the bullet's missing grains of lead
(which totalled approximately 2.2 grains, when an "average"/"median"
weight of an unfired WCC/MC 6.5mm bullet like CE399 is used as a
comparison) are less than the weight of the bullet fragments that were
discovered inside the body of Texas Governor John B. Connally on
11/22/63.
But is this a reasonable conclusion for anyone to come to? In other
words, did Governor Connally really have MORE than approximately 2.2
grains of bullet lead/fragments inside his body prior to being
operated on by Parkland physicians on November 22nd?
Well, let's examine the official record concerning that important
question.....
With respect to Connally's wrist injury, there is the following Warren
Commission testimony from the doctor at Dallas' Parkland Hospital who
was in charge of that particular wound (Dr. Charles F. Gregory):
ARLEN SPECTER -- "Will you describe, as specifically as you can, what
those metallic fragments are by way of size and shape, sir?"
DR. CHARLES GREGORY -- "I would identify these fragments as varying
from five-tenths of a millimeter in diameter to approximately two
millimeters in diameter. And each fragment is no more than a half
millimeter in thickness. They would represent, in lay terms,
flakes...flakes of metal."
MR. SPECTER -- "What would your estimate be as to their weight in
total?"
DR. GREGORY -- "I would estimate that they would be weighed in
micrograms, which is {a} very small amount of weight. I don't know how
to reduce it to ordinary equivalents for you. It is the kind of
weighing that requires a micro-adjustable scale; which means that it
is something less than the weight of a postage stamp."
MR. SPECTER (Later in Gregory's testimony session) -- "For the purpose
of this consideration, I am interested to know whether the metal which
you found in the wrist was of sufficient size so that the bullet which
passed through the wrist could not have emerged virtually completely
intact or with 158 grains intact, or whether the portions of the
metallic fragments were so small that that would be consistent with
having virtually the entire 6.5-millimeter bullet emerge?"
DR. GREGORY -- "Well, considering the small volume of metal as seen by
X-ray, and the very small dimensions of the metal which was recovered,
I think several such fragments could have been flaked off of a total
missile mass without reducing its volume greatly."
~~~~~~
Regarding Governor Connally's chest injuries:
ARLEN SPECTER -- "Was any metallic substance from the bullet left in
the thoracic cage as a result of the passage of the bullet through the
Governor's body?"
DR. ROBERT SHAW -- "No. We saw no evidence of any metallic material in
the X-ray that we had of the chest, and we found none during the
operation."
~~~~~~
Regarding Connally's superficial thigh wound:
DR. CHARLES GREGORY -- "A fragment of metal, again microscopic,
measuring about five-tenths of a millimeter by two millimeters, lies
just beneath the skin, about a half-inch on the medial aspect of the
thigh."
ARLEN SPECTER -- "What is your best estimate of the weight of that
metallic fragment?"
DR. GREGORY -- "This again would be in micrograms, postage stamp
weight thereabouts. Not much more than that."
~~~~~~
In addition, we have this very interesting comment from Dr. Gregory:
DR. GREGORY -- "I think again that bullet, Exhibit 399, could very
well have struck the thigh in a reverse fashion and have shed a bit of
its lead core into the fascia immediately beneath the skin, yet never
have penetrated the thigh sufficiently so that it eventually was
dislodged and was found in the clothing.
I would like to add to that we were disconcerted by not finding a
missile at all. Here was our patient with three discernible wounds,
and no missile within him of sufficient magnitude to account for them,
and we suggested that someone ought to search his belongings and other
areas where he had been to see if it could be identified or found,
rather."
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/gregory1.htm
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/gregory2.htm
~~~~~~
Therefore, in total, we have the following "Connally Bullet Fragments
Inventory":
1.) The very small fragments removed from Governor Connally's wrist
(of microscopic "postage stamp" weight). The preoperative X-ray of
Connally's wrist (CE690) shows the fragments and reflects the very
small nature of all the fragments that were deposited by the bullet in
the wrist (remember, this is PREoperative, so all TOTAL fragments are
visible in the wrist):
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0187a.htm
CE691 (another preoperative X-ray) shows the wrist fragments from a
different angle. Again, the fragments are very small in size:
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0187b.htm
2.) Zero metallic fragments discovered in Goveror Connally's chest/
thorax. CE681 is the 11/22/63 chest X-ray of JBC:
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0182b.htm
3.) One extremely-tiny bullet fragment in JBC's thigh (again "postage
stamp" type of weight). CE694 shows the thigh (preoperative):
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0189a.htm
~~~~~~
In Addition:
Dr. John Lattimer did an experiment with a WCC/MC bullet (just like
CE399), whereby he squeezed the bullet in a vise to extrude approx. 2
grains of lead from the base of the missile (to match the approximate
amount of lead that was missing from CE399, which, in point of fact,
was slightly more than 2 grains).
Lattimer's two grains of Mannlicher-Carcano bullet yielded 41 separate
small, sliced fragments (any one of which looks larger than ANY of the
fragments that were deposited in John Connally's body by the bullet
that struck him on November 22, 1963).
Have a look:
http://tinypic.com/2s7vnk0.jpg
Via Dr. Lattimer's book:
"Some critics have contended that the four bullet fragments in
Governor Connally are too many to be accounted for by the two grains
of lead missing from bullet 399. In our experiments we were able to
make forty-one such fragments from the two-grain piece of lead that
extruded from our test bullet. It can safely be said, therefore, that
four fragments are by no means too many to be accounted for by the two
grains missing from bullet 399." -- J.K. Lattimer; "Kennedy And
Lincoln"; Pages 276-277
~~~~~~
Given the above evidence, which verifies beyond all reasonable doubt
that the total amount of bullet fragments that existed in all of John
Connally's body on 11/22/63 most certainly did not (and COULD NOT)
have exceeded the missing 2.2 grains of Bullet CE399, I cannot
understand why so many JFK conspiracy proponents continue to soldier
on in their efforts to prove that Bullet CE399 is a missile that could
not possibly have been inside Governor Connally based on the "Amount
Of Missing Lead" factor.
But, then too, I've never been able to figure out the (il)logic of
CTers as a whole either. So, there's nothing new there I guess. ;)
David Von Pein
January 2007
=======================================================
ADDENDUM TO THE ABOVE ARTICLE (directly related to the discussion re.
the Connally metal fragments; the following text comes from a portion
of my full-length review for Vincent Bugliosi's 2007 book on the JFK
assassination, "Reclaiming History")........
[Quoting Bugliosi]:
"In support of his position, which I concur with, that the bullet
fragments removed from Connally's wrist did not weigh more than the
2.4 grains lost from the stretcher bullet {CE399}, Gerald Posner
writes in "Case Closed" that Dr. Charles Gregory testified before the
Warren Commission that the bullet fragments he removed from Connally's
wrist were "flakes of metal" weighing "something less than the weight
of a postage stamp."
"But Dr. Gregory was not referring to the bullet fragments he removed
from Connally's wrist, which definitely were not flakes of metal, but
to the bullet fragments left in Connally's wrist, which were never
removed yet show up on X-rays." -- Vince Bugliosi; Page 441 of
"Reclaiming History's" endnotes
DVP: I'm very nearly certain that Mr. Bugliosi is incorrect re. the
above statement. Because when we look at Dr. Gregory's WC testimony
there is no question at all that when Gregory said this to WC counsel
Arlen Specter --- "I would estimate that they {the metal fragments}
would be weighed in micrograms, which is {a} very small amount of
weight. .... It is the kind of weighing that requires a micro-
adjustable scale, which means that it is something less than the
weight of a postage stamp" --- Gregory was specifically referring to
the fragments which are visible on two PRE-operative X-rays taken of
Governor Connally's wrist (CE690 and CE691).
Which means that Gregory was referring to ALL of the metal fragments
(or "flakes") that were in Connally's wrist BEFORE Gregory ever
operated on the Governor to retrieve any bullet fragments.
Via comparison, when looking at CE692 and CE693 (which are POST-
operative wrist X-rays which were taken after Connally was operated
on), it can easily be determined that Exhibits 692 and 693 depict
FEWER fragments within the X-ray than are shown in 690 and 691.
It's possible that Dr. Gregory misspoke when he said that ALL of the
fragments visible in Exhibits 690 and 691 represented only "flakes of
metal", which is positively what he said, and, as I mentioned, he was
definitely referring to the PRE-operative wrist X-rays, even though
Gregory said that he, himself, removed "two or three" of the largest
fragments from Connally's wrist, and had a chance to determine at that
time whether the term "flakes of metal" really applied to those
removed fragments.
In any event, that is what the official Warren Commission record
reveals with respect Dr. Gregory's testimony in 1964 when he was
looking directly at CE690 and CE691.
And to my (layperson's) eyes, the visible hunks of metal that can be
seen in 690 and 691 certainly don't look very big at all. Perhaps the
word "flakes" would, indeed, describe them fairly well (at least when
looking at the X-rays only).
Later in Gregory's WC testimony -- after Arlen Specter asked,
"Approximately how large were those fragments {that were removed from
Connally's wrist}, Dr. Gregory?" -- we find these words being spoken
by Gregory:
"Rather thin...their greatest dimension would probably not exceed one-
eighth of an inch. They were very small."
Another semi-important point to all of this talk about the size of
Governor Connally's wrist fragments (which is a point I don't think
Mr. Bugliosi mentions anywhere in his book) refers to a portion of Dr.
Gregory's testimony where he, in effect, is saying that ALL of the
fragments that were seen in Connally's wrist (INCLUDING THE TWO OR
THREE FRAGMENTS THAT WERE REMOVED FROM THE GOVERNOR'S WRIST) were
located during surgery "by chance", and ALL of these metal fragments
could have been left inside Connally's body without causing the
Governor further physical problems in the future.
Here is exactly what Dr. Gregory said to the Warren Commission
regarding this matter:
"We know from experience that small flakes of metal of this kind do
not ordinarily produce difficulty in the future, but that the
extensive dissection required to find them may produce...consequences
and so we choose to leave them inside unless we chance upon them. And
on this occasion, those bits of metal recovered were simply found by
chance in the course of removing necrotized material {i.e., dead
bodily tissue}."
=======================================================
Papa Andy
>
> CE691 (another preoperative X-ray) shows the wrist fragments from a
> different angle. Again, the fragments are very small in size:
>
>
> 2.) Zero metallic fragments discovered in Goveror Connally's chest/
> thorax. CE681 is the 11/22/63 chest X-ray of JBC:
>
>
> 3.) One extremely-tiny bullet fragment in JBC's thigh (again "postage
> stamp" type of weight). CE694 shows the thigh (preoperative):
>
>
> ~~~~~~
>
> In Addition:
>
> Dr. John Lattimer did an experiment with a WCC/MC bullet (just like
> CE399), whereby he squeezed the bullet in a vise to extrude approx. 2
> grains of lead from the base of the missile (to match the approximate
> amount of lead that was missing from CE399, which, in point of fact,
> was slightly more than 2 grains).
>
> Lattimer's two grains of Mannlicher-Carcano bullet yielded 41 separate
> small, sliced fragments (any one of which looks larger than ANY of the
> fragments that were deposited in John Connally's body by the bullet
> that struck him on November 22, 1963).
>
> Have a look:
>
> http://tinypic.com/2s7vnk0.jpg
>
> Via Dr. Lattimer's book:
>
> "Some critics have contended that the four bullet fragments in
> Governor Connally are too many to be accounted for by the two grains
> of lead missing from bullet 399. In our experiments we were able to
> make forty-one such fragments from the two-grain piece of lead that
> extruded from our test bullet. It can safely be said, therefore, that
> four fragments are by no means too many to be accounted for by the two
> grains missing from bullet 399." -- J.K. Lattimer; "Kennedy And
> Lincoln"; Pages 276-277
>
very crafty evasion, David
just like your pal VB
it took Weisberg years of diligently pursuing the government to get to
the facts that you and VB choose to ignore
the missing weight of CE399 comes from a piece being taken off the
bullet for
testing by the government
that is the reality
A
David Von Pein
And once more, per the above belief re. CE399's weight, we have
virtual proof that whoever the people were who decided to "plant" or
"switch" the Parkland bullet were (without question) total morons.
I.E.: Somebody decided to plant (or switch) the bullet(s)....and they
decided it was wise to place "CE399" into evidence, a bullet that (per
the idiocy spelled out by the CTer above) had absolutely NO GRAINS
MISSING from its total weight AFTER it supposedly went through at
least one of the two Dealey Plaza victims.
Can these plotters get any more feeble? Is it truly POSSIBLE to be
that stupid?
Yes, a goodly portion of the missing 2+ grains of CE399 could very
well be portions the Government sliced off of the bullet for testing.
But CTers still haven't a leg to stand on....because the fragments
taken out of Connally were never weighed officially (that I'm aware
of; are you?) and, therefore, we can only guess as to their weights
(and the weight of the very small flakes left inside JBC as well).
And, as previously mentioned, the TOTAL WEIGHT of all the fragments in
question is very, very small....and certainly is a total weight that
does not exclude CE399 as being the bullet that could have deposited
those fragments in Mr. Connally's body.
And common sense alone tells a rational person (i.e., a person who
isn't inclined to scream "It was planted!" every time he turns around)
that CE399 HAD to have been inside Governor Connally's body.
Given the sum total of evidence, CE399 is THE ONLY POSSIBLE BULLET
that could have been inside John Connally's body on November 22,
1963. .....
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/0b30398a449c05b7
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/648e0882dfd6c419
Neil Coburn
Neil Coburn
curtjester1
were removed from Connally's wrist. Although Dr. Charles Gregory said
the fragments that were removed from the Governor's wrist were merely
"flakes of metal" and that they weighed less than a postage stamp,
that is not how Nurse Bell remembers it at all. Nurse Bell is the
Parkland Hospital operating-room nurse who handled the fragments that
were removed from the Governor's wrist. She insists the fragments were
not merely flakes but were identifiable pieces of metal anywhere from
3 to 4 millimeters in length by 2 millimeters wide. This squares with
the recollection of one of Connally's other surgeons, Dr. Robert Shaw.
Interviewed for the award-winning 1988 documentary REASONABLE DOUBT:
THE SINGLE-BULLET THEORY, Shaw said, "I am sure that the bullet that
inflicted these wounds on Governor Connally was fragmented much more
than this bullet [CE 399] shows."
There didn't seem to be any question about the wrist fragments
in the first hours and days after the shooting. The Parkland Hospital
operative record states that "SMALL BITS OF METAL WERE ENCOUNTERED AT
VARIOUS LEVELS" of the wrist wound, and that "WHEREVER THEY WERE
IDENTIFIED AND COULD BE PICKED UP WERE PICKED UP and have been
submitted to the pathology department for identification and
examination."
Asked if CE 399 could have been the bullet that struck
Connally's wrist, Dr. Pierre Finck, one of Kennedy's autopsists,
answered, "No, for the reason that there are too many fragments
described in that wrist," and he based this conclusion in large part
on the Parkland Hospital operative record. Dr. James Humes, the chief
pathologist at the autopsy, understood the clear implications of the
operative record's wording. Dr. Humes was asked if CE 399 could have
been either the missile that struck the head or the one that wounded
Connally's wrist. He replied in the negative and cited the Parkland
operative record as the basis for his conclusion:
This does not include the inoperable fragments left in the body
either.
CJ
> http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0...
>
> CE691 (another preoperative X-ray) shows the wrist fragments from a
> different angle. Again, the fragments are very small in size:
>
> http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0...
>
> 2.) Zero metallic fragments discovered in Goveror Connally's chest/
> thorax. CE681 is the 11/22/63 chest X-ray of JBC:
>
> http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0...
>
> 3.) One extremely-tiny bullet fragment in JBC's thigh (again "postage
> stamp" type of weight). CE694 shows the thigh (preoperative):
>
> http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0...
>
> ~~~~~~
>
> In Addition:
>
> Dr. John Lattimer did an experiment with a WCC/MC bullet (just like
> CE399), whereby he squeezed the bullet in a vise to extrude approx. 2
> grains of lead from the base of the missile (to match the approximate
> amount of lead that was missing from CE399, which, in point of fact,
> was slightly more than 2 grains).
>
> Lattimer's two grains of Mannlicher-Carcano bullet yielded 41 separate
> small, sliced fragments (any one of which looks larger than ANY of the
> fragments that were deposited in John Connally's body by the bullet
> that struck him on November 22, 1963).
>
> Have a look:
>
> http://tinypic.com/2s7vnk0.jpg
>
> Via Dr. Lattimer's book:
>
> "Some critics have contended that the four bullet fragments in
> Governor Connally are too many to be accounted for by the two grains
> of lead missing from bullet 399. In our experiments we were able to
> make forty-one such fragments from the two-grain piece of lead that
> extruded from our test bullet. It can safely be said, therefore, that
> four fragments are by no means too many to be accounted for by the two
> grains missing from bullet 399." -- J.K. Lattimer; "Kennedy And
> Lincoln"; Pages 276-277
>
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/discussions/start-thread.ht...
> on), it can easily be determined that Exhibits 692 ...
>
> read more »
tomnln
REMAING in JBC.
"curtjester1" <curtj...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1184780787....@o11g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
lazu...@webtv.net
fragments which she held in her hand ranged in size up to a
"match-head". Obviously, she was referring to a wooden striking match,
indicating as you say a size of 3 to 4 mms, which would be about right,
and obviously not mere tiny flakes of metal. That she would use the term
"match-head", means she must have been pretty confident of the size of
the bullet fragments.
The nose of CE 399 shows no loss of metal, except for the little gouge
taken out by the FBI for testing------why didn't they take the test
sample out of the base end, where the fragments was supposed to have
extruded ? Anyhow, there was too much lead in the evidence, so some of
it had to go down a rat-hole, like other evidentiary items, Harper
fragment for example, which point towards conspiracy---never to be seen
again.---
Old Laz, who knows that all the evidence which has disappeared certainly
wouldn't help the lone nut cause.
David Von Pein
Incorrect. Just read all of Gregory's pertinent testimony in this
"flakes" regard. He definitely was looking right at pre-operative X-
rays CE690 & 691 when he said "flakes of metal".
As I have previously mentioned in other posts, it's possible that
Gregory did misspeak when he said "flakes" with respect to ALL the
fragments seen in CE690/91.
But the record IS what the record is...and, as I've already verified
above, the WC testimony record positively shows Gregory was talking
about the PRE-operative X-rays when he said that the "flakes" of metal
shown on those X-rays would probably weigh "less than a postage stamp".
Papa Andy
you can use caps all you want
that doesn't change anything
if we believe Sibert and O'Neill (FBI agents) it could have been from
JFK's body
same if we believe Finck's testimony in the Shaw trial about probing
the back wound
or
it could have been planted
besides
there must have been cases somewhere in the history of crime where
shots were fired and the bullets were not recovered
A
Ben Holmes
says...
DVP's arguments are only persuasive until lurkers realize that DVP can't handle
refutations of his theories. Indeed - he simply runs away...
David Von Pein
I'm merely reporting what Dr. Charles F. Gregory (the man who removed
fragments of metal from JBC) said to the WC while looking directly at
PRE-operative X-rays of Gov. Connally's wrist (CE690 & 691).
Read it. It's all here. Nothing's being hidden.....
anti.bibl...@gmail.com
.
Meanwhile, JFK was whacked because he blocked the 1963 Nazi gold loan sought by the US Fed which went thru 10 years later as the (Fake) Chinese gold loan anyway. That's what funded the last 40 years of the New American head-fcuk! Wake up! :-(
Thomas J Rossley
mega...@gmail.com
In the Dallas PC list of evidence that it collected on 11-22-63 there is a notation of (1) Fragment removed from Governor Connelly. I presume this was what ended up as CE842 the fragments removed by Dr. Gregory. These would not account for whatever remained in the Governor's thigh.
What was the weight of the fragments in CE842?