Creating The Illusion That Oswald Ordered A Rifle From Klein's
curtjester1
Now with BY Photos, and the Ordering of differing lengths of rifle
that could have been ordered from Klein's, I would assert that this
particular issue could be the most crux in deterimining not only a
bogus money order, but lay a more clearer foundation of the mindset of
conspiracy, deception, and intricate cover up for the whole smear-
Oswald campaign. It could be the last chance for CT'ers in sheep
clothing that have been following the LNTer Party Line to repent of
their ignorance for falling into the Conspirator LNT trap thinking and
even doing what the real conspirators want, for CT'ers in sheep's
clothing to attack real CT'ers. Cowering with a "NO Interest"
attitude will be viewed as a siding of approval for the killing of one
JFK.
Creating The Illusion That Oswald Purchased A
Rifle From Klein's
Six days after announcing that Oswald paid $12.78 for the rifle, *the
FBI changed their story* and said that he paid $19.95 for the rifle
with the scope already attached (plus $1.50 for postage).
NOTE: **The author does not know why the FBI changed their story.
It
may have been because Klein's bank records did not show a deposit
that
matched that amount.
In order to create the illusion that Oswald paid $21.45 for the mail
order rifle from Klein's, the FBI had to "locate" a corresponding
deposit in Klein's account at the First National Bank of Chicago.
The
deposit had to be untraceable, which meant that it was made in cash
or
with a US postal money order. *The deposit could not be in the form
of a personal check, or money order issued by a private company such
as a bank , Cooks, or American Express.*
According to FBI reports, Bureau agents began tracking the $21.45
money order at 9:00 am on the morning of November 23, *even though
they announced a few hours later that Oswald paid $12.78 for the
rifle*. They ALLEGEDLY spoke with William Waldman, of Klein's
Sporting Goods, then ALLEGEDLY spoke with Lester Gohr, the Assistant
Cashier of the Federal Reserve Bank in Chicago. *These agents may
have interviewed these witnesses, but the information contained in
their reports suggests that they did not.*
At 9:00 am FBI agents Gale Johnson, James Hanlon, and Phillip
Wanerus
ALLEGEDLY interviewd Klein's vice-president William Waldman, who
ALLEDGEDLY told the agents that Klein's records showed that a money
order in the amount of $21.45 was deposited to the Klein's account at
the First National Bank of Chicago on March 15, 1963. *It is
doubtful
that Waldman gave this information to these agents, because he had
not
seen an order from "A. Hidell" on the Klein's microfilm. He did not
know **the price paid for the rifle or the method of payment**. In
addition, Waldman had already given Klein's microfilm to agents
Dolan,
Toedt, and Mahan earlier that morning.*
After ALLEDGELY interviewing William Waldman agents Johnson, Hanlon,
and Wanerus ALLEDGELY interviewed Robert Wilmouth, Vice-President of
the First National Bank of Chicago *(on Sunday morning)*. According
to their FBI report, Wilmouth said that Klein's made a deposit in the
amount of $13,827.98 on Friday, March 15, 1963. This deposit
contained hundreds of entries on 5 pages of adding machine tape, with
*two entries* in the amount of $21.45 (the FBI report was wrong;
there
was only *one entry for $21.45* in he $13,827 deposit). Wilmouth
ALLEDGELY told the agents that one of the entries represented an
American Express money order and the second deposit item represented
a
postal money order, both in the amount of $21.45. *But how would
Wilmouth know if these deposits were made with money orders when
looking at numbers on adding machine tapes? (see Vol 21, p. 706).
Wilmouth, ALLEDGELY told the agents that both deposits were made on
March 15, were processed by his bank on March 16 (Saturday), and were
received by the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago on March 18, 1963.
*But the date on the deposit slip reads "2/13/63-a month before the
rifle was ordered (p. 706, Volume 21).* *And how could Wilmouth
possibly know the date that a money order was deposited at the
Federal
Reserve Bank without looking at the cancelled money order, which he
did not have??* Wilmouth ALLEDEDLY told the agents, "Postal money
orders are sent to the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago, which in turn
sends them to a central processing center located in KANSAS CITY,
MISSOURI.
NOTE: **If neither the First National Bank nor the Federal Reserve
Board had copies of a $21.45 money order (No. 2,202,130,462), then
Wilmouth could not possibly have known the date the money order was
received by the Federal Reserve.**
After ALLEDGELY interviewing Robert Wilmouth agents Johnson, Hanlon,
and Wanerus ALLEDGELY interviewed Lester Gohr, the Assistant Cashier
of the Federal Reserve Bank in Chicago-*on Saturday morning*.
According to the FBI report, Gohr said that records of postal money
orders were only kept for 6 months and that *he had no records prior
to May 29, 1963.*
From the information ALLEDGELY obtained from these bankers, we
realize
that if they were interviewd on Saturday morning it is highly
unlikely
they furnished the information that appears in the FBI reports.
*Also, if they had furnished information about a $21.45 money order
to
FBI agents on Saturday morning, then the Bureau would never have
announced that Oswald paid $12.78 for the mail order rifle a few
hours
later!* It is far more likely that these FBI reports were fabricated
in order to create the illusion that a $21.45 postal money order was
received by Klein's, deposited to their bank account and then sent to
the Federal Reserve.
We have already learned the $21.45 money order published in the
Warren
Volumes was **never deposited into a bank or financial institution.**
*This means the mony order was not deposited to Klein's account at
the
First National Bank of Chicago, nor deposited with the Federal
Reserve
Bank, nor then returned to the Federal Records Center in Alexandria,
VA. It also means that the information contained in the FBI reports
of Johnson, Hanlon, and Wanerus was fabricated in order to create the
illusion that Oswald purchased a $21.45 money order which was
routinely processed through the federal banking system.
The "Official Story" of how the $21.45 money order was found.
At 1:45 pm on Saturday, November 23 Secret Service agent Edward Z.
Tucker arrived at Klein's Sporting Goods and began interviewing
William Waldman. At first Waldman was reluctant to speak with Agent
Tucker, *because he had been told by the FBI agents not to discuss
the
investigation with anyone.* He alledgely told Tucker the price of
Mannlicher-Carcano rifle was $21.45, including postage, and payment
may have been made with a money order. Tucker spoke with Secret
Service agent Griffith, who then called Chicago Postal Inspector
Glenn
Knight and requested help in locating a postal money order in the
amount of $21.45.
One of the FBI agents who reviewed the Klein's microfilm, John Toedt,
ALLEDGELY contracted the Post Office in Chicago and also asked for
their assistance in locating a postal money order. Toedt was told to
contract the division headquarters in KANSAS CITY.
After receiving a call from the SS, Chicago Postal Inspector Martin
J.
McGee ALLEDGELY telephoned Dallas Postal Inspector Cox, who in turn
contacted Harry Holmes, who stated he thought *he (Holmes) would be
able to find a record of a $21.45 money order in Dallas.*
NOTE: **Most of the background information relating to the $21.45
money order that is found in the reports of the US Post Office
originated with Harry Holmes and, therefore, should be considered
extremely suspect.**
Holmes told the WC, "I passed the information to the men (Dallas
postal employees) who were looking for this money order 'STUB' to
show
which would designate, which would show the number of the money
order,
and that is the onley way you could find one...within 10 minutes they
called back and said they had a money order in that amount issued on,
I don't know that I show, but it was that money order in an amount
issued at the main post office, which is the same place as this post
office box was at the time, box 2915, and the money order had been
issued **early on the morning of March 12th**, 1963.
NOTE: ** US post offices always kept the end "stub" of all money
orders sold to customers for their records. ***But neither Holmes
nor
anyone else produced the "stub" or any postal records to support his
claim that Dallas postal employees in Dallas located the "stub" for
postal money order No. 2,202,130,462.***
**Holmes told the WC the money order was issued ***early on the
morning of March 12th.***, 1963. Yet there is nothing on a postal
mony order that shows the time of day it was sold. The Commission
should have asked Holmes how he knew the money order was issued
"**early on the morning of March 12, 1963.***"
**The only indication the money order was purchased on the morning of
March 12 was the postmark show on the microfilm copy of the envelop
ALLEDGELY mailed to Klein's which read, "10:30 am." The Kleins'
microfilm was never shown to Holmes and therefore Holmes could not
have known that a postal money order was issued ***early on the
morning of March 12, 1963***. The only way Holmes could have known
about the postmark would be if he had previously seen, or handled,
the
envelope, or if had been told to say that.**
At 3:30 pm (November 23) Harry Holmes contacted Inspector Lloyd H.
Stephens in Fort Worth and told him that postal money order No.
2,202,130,462, in the amount of $21.45, had been used to pay for the
rifle. Stephens then contacted Inspector Duggan in Washington, DC
and
game him the same information.
Postal inspectors at the Federal Postal Money Order in Kansas City
began searching for money order No. 2, 202,130,462, while a
Postmaster
General Staff meeting was held in Washington DC. A summary of the
meeting prepared by the SS stated, "The initial request for the
identification and location of the subject US Postal Money order had
come from Postal Inspector Lloyd Stephens, Fort Worth, Texas.....as a
result of a conference between Mr. Donald Duggan, Deputy Chief,
Postal
Inspection Service, Washington DC, and Postal Inspection Service at
Fort Worth, Texas, **the original US Postal Money Order would be
furnished to this service (Secret Service).**
At 7:30 pm (CST) Chicago Postal Inspector Glenn Knight advised
Secrect
Service Agent Griffith that Postal Inspectors were attempting to
locate the postal money order in Kansas City. **Postal inspectors in
Kansas City had already spent 4 hours looking for postal money order
No. 2,202,130,462, without success.**
The Federal Postal Money Order Center in Kansas City was the same
facility at which 5 other postal money orders were located that had
been purchased by Oswald and used to repay his $435.71 loan from the
Department of State. FBI SA Donald E. Stangel obtained the following
information from the Department of State and the USPS.
He shows a chart with categories Ser # or M.O.; Amount; Issue Date;
Location; and Rec'd by State Dept
The first 5 postal money orders (beginning with series 1,156,417,562)
purchaed by Oswald in Fort Worth and Dallas were returned to the
Federal Postal Money Order Center in Kansas City. The last 3 postal
money ordrs (series 2,202,000,060) were returned to the Federal
Records Center in Alexander, VA. Money order No. 2,202,130.462,
ALLEDGELY purchased by Oswald from the GPO in Dallas, was ALLEDGELY
located at the Federal Records Center in Alexandria, VA on the
evening
of November 23, 1963.
According to the serial numbers on these money orders, the GPO in
Dallas sold approxiamtely 1200 money orders per week (3888 from
November 14, 1962-December 6, 1962; 3475 from Jan. 5, 1963-Jan. 25,
1963). Using 1200 money orders per week as a guide, the serial
number
of the money order ALLEDGELY purchased by Oswald on Mar. 12, 1963,
was
2,202,130,462 (***118,527 numbers higher***). This serial number
indicates that this money order came from a stack of money orders
that
should not have been sold by the GPO in Dallas until late 1964 or
early 1965, if sold in numerical order.
NOTE: **The Commission failed to ask the Postal Service when money
orders beginning with 2,202,130 were sent to the Dallas GPO. They
also failed to ask Holmes for the name of the postal employee who
allededly found the "stub" for the $21.45 money order.** While
Postal
Inspectors continued to search for the $21.45 money order in Kansas
City, Dallas Postal Inspector/FBI Informatn Harry Holmes advised the
money ordr could be found in Washington DC. Holmes told the
Commission, "This number (2,202,130,462) was transmitted to the Chief
Inspector in Washington, who immediately got the money order center
at
Washington to begin a search, which they use IBM equipment to kick
out
this money order and sent it oer, ***so they said***, by special
conveyance to the Secret Service, chief of the Secret Service at
Washington now, and it turned out, ***so they said***, to be the
correct money order. **Holmes was the first and only person in
Dallas
to know the number of the money order, and the first to suggest the
money order could be located in Washington, DC.**
NOTE: **The WC could not understand why it took nearly ***16
hours***
to locate the money order. Harry Holmes said the delay was caused
because the FBI provided him with incorrect information. Holmes said
the Bureau advised him the amount of the money order was $21.95
instead of $21.45, which caused him to look for a different money
order, ***but not a single person corroborated Holmes' story.***
In Washington, DC, the Deputy Chief of the Postal Inspection Service,
Donald D. Duggan, insturcted Postal Finance Officer ***J. Harold
Marks*** to indicate a search for the money order in Washington, DC,
at 6:30 PM (CST).
At 7:55 PM (CST), Chicago Secret Service Agent Griffith was told that
postal money order No. 2,202,130,462 had been located in Washington,
DC (8:55 EST). Griffith then telephoned agent Mroz, in Kansas City,
and advised him the $21.45 postal money order had been recovered in
Washington.
NOTE: **Apparently the Dallas FBI office was not aware the money
order had been located. At 9:30 PM (CST) the Dallas office sent an
airtel to the Director and SAC's in Chicago and New York. The
message
said, "Advised inst. money order could not be located today, but
would
be located *Nov. twenty four next."*
Postal money order No. 2,202,190,462 was ALLEDGELY found at the
Federal Records Center in Alexandria, VA by Robert Jackson, *an
employee of the National Archives.*
NOTE: **This $21.45 money order was never deposited into a financial
institution and therefore could not have been routed through the
banking system and returned to the Federal Records Center in
Alexandria, VA. This money order was probably obtained from the GPO
in Dallas in the early afternoon of November 23, hand-delivered to
Washington, DC, and "planted" at the Federal Records Center in the
early evening.**
**It remains unknown whether Robert Jackson "found" the money order
at
the Federal Records Center or it was given to him. There were no
witnesses present and neither Jackson, Marks, Parker, nor anyone from
the National Archives and Records Service were interviewed by the
FBI,
Secret Service, or Warren Commission.**
Robert Jackson hand-delivered the $21.45 money order to the home of
**J. Harold Marks** in Washington, DC, who had been told to locate
the
money order by Deputy Chief Donald D. Duggan. A summary report
prepared by Secret Service Agent Donald E. Burke on November 26, 1963
provided the details of how the money order was given to the Secret
Service:
"At 10:10 PM (EST-9:10 CST) November 23 1963 SA Parker obtained the
original US Postal Money Order from Mr. Harold Marks at Mr. Marks's
home. At that time Jackson was identified as Robert H. Jackson, 2121
Lee Wood Drive, Alexandria, Virginia, telephone, SO 5-7501, and
employee of the National Archives and Records Service....He informed
SA Parker that he obtained subject original postal money order and
surrendered it to Mr. Marks. Both Jackson and Marks initialed and
dated the original money order, after which it was surrendered to SA
Parker, who in turn initialed and dated the money order.
On the evening of November 23, 1963 the $21.45 postal money order was
initialed and dated by Robert H. Jackson (RHJ), J. Harold Marks
(JHM),
and John E. Parker (JEP). A summary report by the SS explained how
copies of the money order were sent to the Dallas office:
"SA Phillips (Secret Service, Dallas) advised, after consultation
with
Inspector Kelley of this service, that two photstats be made of
subject postal money order and that these photostates be placed on
Flight #107, Braniff Airlines, departing Washington, DC, at (9:00 am
on November 24, 1963, and arriving at Dallas, Texas at 11:50 A.M.
SA Parker made five photostats of subject US Postal Money Order and
placed them in an envelope. SA Parker surrendered the envelop to
Captain Davis of Flight #107, Braniff Airlines, departing National
Airport, Washington, DC, at 9 AM on November 24, 1963, for delivery
to
Special Agent in Charge, US Secret Service at Dallas.
The secret service provided the Dallas Police with a copy of the
money
order, which was published among their exhibits in the Warren
Volumes,
CE 2003 (DPD file). The Secret Service summary report explained what
happened to the ***original*** $21.45 money order:
"SA (Max D.) Phillips also requested that a chain of custody be
maintained, and that ***original postal money order be retained by
the
Washington Field Office safe.***
SA Parker then surrendered the original US Postal Money Order to SAIC
Gaiglein, which he had previously placed in a sealed white envelope
after which SA Parker placed the ***original US Postal Money Order
sealed in this envelope in the WFO (Washington Field Office) safe.***
On the morning of November 24, 1963, Deputy Chief Paterni (Secret
Service, Washington), when informed by SA John H. Grimes, Jr., of
this
Secret Service that the Postal Inspection Service, through Postal
Inspector Joseph A. Verant advised that the original US Postal Money
Order ws being sought by the FBI, authorized SA Grimes to surrender
the original Postal Money Order to the Federal Bureau of
Investigation. Immediately thereafter, while SA Grimes was
attempting
to make telephone contact with SAIC Glenn Gillies, Washington Field
Office, Federal Bureau of Investigation, SA Leslie B. Chisholm, FBI,
telephonicall contacted the reporting agent concerning this original
US Postal Money Order. SA Chisholm was advised that the postal money
order was available and he stated he or an agent of the FBI would
pick
up this money order at the Washington Field Ofice of this Secret
Service).
SA Grimes of this service removed the sealed envelope containing the
original US Postal Money ORder from the WFO safe; removed the
original
money order from this envelope; initialed and dated the money order;
made four photostats of it, and surrendered it to SA Chisholm of the
FBI who executed a receipt."
On November 24, SA Chisholm delivered the original money order to
James T. Freeman at the FBI laboratory in Washington, DC. The
summary
report continued:
"This paid order was located at the Records Center in Alexandria,
Virginia on the early evening of November 23. It was turned over to
a
Secret Service agent in Washington, DC who flew it to Dallas."
NOTE: **The information that a secret service agent hand carried the
original money order to Dallas came from Harry Holmes. As we have
seen, this did not happen and was yet another of Holmes'
fabrications. ***Copies** of the money order were sent to Dallas,
but
the original uncashed and undepostited money order was turned over to
the FBI laborator.**
What is the origin of the unused $21.45 money order?
To be considered later.
Taken from Harvey and Lee pgs 461-67
CJ
Walt
> This is just a reprint of a prior post that didn't get much traffic.
> Now with BY Photos, and the Ordering of differing lengths of rifle
> that could have been ordered from Klein's, I would assert that this
> particular issue could be the most crux in deterimining not only a
> bogus money order, but lay a more clearer foundation of the mindset of
> conspiracy, deception, and intricate cover up for the whole smear-
> Oswald campaign. It could be the last chance for CT'ers in sheep
> clothing that have been following the LNTer Party Line to repent of
> their ignorance for falling into the Conspirator LNT trap thinking and
> even doing what the real conspirators want, for CT'ers in sheep's
> clothing to attack real CT'ers. Cowering with a "NO Interest"
> attitude will be viewed as a siding of approval for the killing of one
> JFK.
>
> Creating The Illusion That Oswald Purchased A
> Rifle From Klein's
>
> Six days after announcing that Oswald paid $12.78 for the rifle, *the
> FBI changed their story* and said that he paid $19.95 for the rifle
> with the scope already attached (plus $1.50 for postage).
>
> NOTE: **The author does not know why the FBI changed their story.
> It
> may have been because Klein's bank records did not show a deposit
> that
> matched that amount.
Or it could be a simple mistake......(Gasp!)
Here's the text of the Klein ad from the Feb issue of The American
Rifleman.
LATE ISSUE 6.5
ITALIAN CARBINE
Only 36"overall, weighs only 5 1/2 lbs, shows only slight use, lightly
oiled, test fired and head spaced, ready for shooting. Turned down
bolt, thumb safety, 6-shot, clip fed. Rear open sight. Fast loading
and fast firing.
C20-T1196.... Specially priced................$12.88
C20-T750..... Carbine with brand new good quality 4X scope, 3/4'
diameter, as illustrated ......$19.95
The illustration is of a 40" long , 7 1/2 lb, model 91 /38, Mannlicher
Carcano SHORT RIFLE with a scope attached.
The text calls it a... "CARBINE" but it is NOT a Mannlicher Carcano
"CARBINE"
The stock number of C20-750 denotes that the carbine comes with a
scope as illustrated ( 40" rifle w/ scope) for $19.95
but if you were to order the "carbine" (40 inch rifle) without the
scope it was priced at $12.88
I hope this information will help you extract your head.......
David Von Pein
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/51453acf50c36a90
What a bunch of crap.
The CT Kook Brigade just refuses to let go of the chaff. They prefer
the loose ends (which the kooks create themselves, of course, in their
own minds) vs. the common-sense fact that Lee Oswald ordered, paid
for, picked up, possessed, and owned Rifle C2766 (CE139) in 1963.
Waldman Exhibit No. 7 -- all by itself -- provides the virtual proof
(to a reasonable person, that is) that Lee H. Oswald (aka A. Hidell)
purchased rifle C2766/CE139.....his alias, his P.O. Box in Dallas:
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh21/html/WH_Vol21_0364a.htm
And the carload of evidence discovered after the assassination in the
Book Depository with respect to Rifle C2766 provides the 100% proof
that Lee H. Oswald possessed and handled that same rifle.
And with 99% certainty it can be shown and proven (to a reasonable
person, that is, but not to an Anybody-But-Oz kook) that Oswald
"possessed" and "handled" that exact same rifle on 11/22/63 itself, as
he used it to fire three bullets at JFK on Elm Street.
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0158b.htm
curtjester1
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/51453acf50c36a90
>
> What a bunch of crap.
>
> The CT Kook Brigade just refuses to let go of the chaff. They prefer
> the loose ends (which the kooks create themselves, of course, in their
> own minds) vs. the common-sense fact that Lee Oswald ordered, paid
> for, picked up, possessed, and owned Rifle C2766 (CE139) in 1963.
>
in with in evidentiary support.
> Waldman Exhibit No. 7 -- all by itself -- provides the virtual proof
> (to a reasonable person, that is) that Lee H. Oswald (aka A. Hidell)
> purchased rifle C2766/CE139.....his alias, his P.O. Box in Dallas:
>
> http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh21/html/WH_Vol21_0...
>
Thank you. You just supported the fact that they messed up by putting
Carbine on the order. Only 36" MC's were assigned the name Carbine.
The 40 inchers were assigned the name Short Rifle. Of course you
didn't read or bother with the Waldman blatant inconsistencies in the
ten pages which featured many plus the other Exhibits. The serial
number on the order for the Carbines was only given to the Short
Rifles when they went back on the market in June. Ooops, too late for
a weapon ordered 4 months prior. Unfortunately, Belin, the FBI and
SS sought to smooth over by glossing over things like this. Only one
who wants NOT to gloss over for scenaio's sake will read carefully,
absorb, and then make an intelligent reply/rebuttal. You better not
go the Dwayne Rider route either, as there is all sorts of trap doors
you would fall through if you do.
CJ
> And the carload of evidence discovered after the assassination in the
> Book Depository with respect to Rifle C2766 provides the 100% proof
> that Lee H. Oswald possessed and handled that same rifle.
>
> And with 99% certainty it can be shown and proven (to a reasonable
> person, that is, but not to an Anybody-But-Oz kook) that Oswald
> "possessed" and "handled" that exact same rifle on 11/22/63 itself, as
> he used it to fire three bullets at JFK on Elm Street.
>
> http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0...
Walt
> On Sep 27, 3:21 pm, David Von Pein <davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:>http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/51453acf50c36a90
>
> > What a bunch of crap.
>
> > The CT Kook Brigade just refuses to let go of the chaff. They prefer
> > the loose ends (which the kooks create themselves, of course, in their
> > own minds) vs. the common-sense fact that Lee Oswald ordered, paid
> > for, picked up, possessed, and owned Rifle C2766 (CE139) in 1963.
>
> The usual dis-info spin. Just do the kook-mantra and not come right
> in with in evidentiary support.
>
> > Waldman Exhibit No. 7 -- all by itself -- provides the virtual proof
> > (to a reasonable person, that is) that Lee H. Oswald (aka A. Hidell)
> > purchased rifle C2766/CE139.....his alias, his P.O. Box in Dallas:
>
> >http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh21/html/WH_Vol21_0...
>
> Thank you. You just supported the fact that they messed up by putting
> Carbine on the order. Only 36" MC's were assigned the name Carbine.
It's true that the Italian military called the 36" Carcano....a
CARBINE
However Kleines in their desire to make the 40 inch Model 91 /38 more
appealing to prospective buyers called that SHORT RIFLE.......a
carbine.
> The 40 inchers were assigned the name Short Rifle. (by the Italian military)
Here's the text of the Klein ad from the Feb issue of The American
Rifleman.
LATE ISSUE 6.5
ITALIAN CARBINE
Only 36"overall, weighs only 5 1/2 lbs, shows only slight use,
lightly
oiled, test fired and head spaced, ready for shooting. Turned down
bolt, thumb safety, 6-shot, clip fed. Rear open sight. Fast loading
and fast firing.
C20-T1196.... Specially priced................$12.88
C20-T750..... Carbine with brand new good quality 4X scope, 3/4'
diameter, as illustrated ......$19.95
The illustration is of a 40" long , 7 1/2 lb, model 91 /38,
Mannlicher
Carcano SHORT RIFLE with a scope attached.
The text calls it a... "CARBINE" but it is NOT a Mannlicher Carcano
"CARBINE"
The stock number of C20-750 denotes that twhat Kleins calls a carbine
comes with a
scope as illustrated ( 40" rifle w/ scope) for $19.95 but if you were
to order the "carbine" (40 inch rifle) without the
scope it was priced at $12.88
Of course you
> didn't read or bother with the Waldman blatant inconsistencies in the
> ten pages which featured many plus the other Exhibits. The serial
> number on the order for the Carbines was only given to the Short
> Rifles when they went back on the market in June. Ooops, too late for
> a weapon ordered 4 months prior. Unfortunately, Belin, the FBI and
> SS sought to smooth over by glossing over things like this. Only one
> who wants NOT to gloss over for scenaio's sake will read carefully,
> absorb, and then make an intelligent reply/rebuttal. You better not
> go the Dwayne Rider route either, as there is all sorts of trap doors
> you would fall through if you do.
>
> CJ
>
>
>
> > And the carload of evidence discovered after the assassination in the
> > Book Depository with respect to Rifle C2766 provides the 100% proof
> > that Lee H. Oswald possessed and handled that same rifle.
>
> > And with 99% certainty it can be shown and proven (to a reasonable
> > person, that is, but not to an Anybody-But-Oz kook) that Oswald
> > "possessed" and "handled" that exact same rifle on 11/22/63 itself, as
> > he used it to fire three bullets at JFK on Elm Street.
>
> >http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0...- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
curtjester1
catalog number didn't coincide until June. It's consistent
throughout, Carbine = 36" and Short Rifle = 40+"
> The illustration is of a 40" long , 7 1/2 lb, model 91 /38, Mannlicher
> Carcano SHORT RIFLE with a scope attached.
>
But the scopes on the 40" long were NOT attached. They could not be
mounted directly over the rifle barrel, like most scopes, because the
ammunitionclip had to be loaded into the gun from the top. The scope
had to be offset and a special mounting bracket was needed to position
the scope above and to the left of the center of the barrel. The
Carbines WERE attached. It's obvious to me they didn't want to pay
the extra artwork. Moral anyway, don't depend on the artwork when
their is more concise ways of determining things...
> The text calls it a... "CARBINE" but it is NOT a Mannlicher Carcano
> "CARBINE"
>
> The stock number of C20-750 denotes that the carbine comes with a
> scope as illustrated ( 40" rifle w/ scope) for $19.95
But the 40" one in June.
> but if you were to order the "carbine" (40 inch rifle) without the
> scope it was priced at $12.88
>
> I hope this information will help you extract your head.......
It should also be noted that the order didn't include a clip or
ammunition which would have required another price, order description
and catalog number which would have been E20-T751 which was 108 rounds
of 6.5 ammo with a 6-shot clip. Oswald would have been pretty stupid
and cheap not to order that, eh?
Also, all 36" MC's had a T in their orders.
Hope this helps you get ahead.
CJ
> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
curtjester1
> On 27 Sep, 21:26, curtjester1 <curtjest...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sep 27, 3:21 pm, David Von Pein <davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:>http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/51453acf50c36a90
>
> > > What a bunch of crap.
>
> > > The CT Kook Brigade just refuses to let go of the chaff. They prefer
> > > the loose ends (which the kooks create themselves, of course, in their
> > > own minds) vs. the common-sense fact that Lee Oswald ordered, paid
> > > for, picked up, possessed, and owned Rifle C2766 (CE139) in 1963.
>
> > The usual dis-info spin. Just do the kook-mantra and not come right
> > in with in evidentiary support.
>
> > > Waldman Exhibit No. 7 -- all by itself -- provides the virtual proof
> > > (to a reasonable person, that is) that Lee H. Oswald (aka A. Hidell)
> > > purchased rifle C2766/CE139.....his alias, his P.O. Box in Dallas:
>
> > >http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh21/html/WH_Vol21_0...
>
> > Thank you. You just supported the fact that they messed up by putting
> > Carbine on the order. Only 36" MC's were assigned the name Carbine.
>
> It's true that the Italian military called the 36" Carcano....a
> CARBINE
>
> However Kleines in their desire to make the 40 inch Model 91 /38 more
> appealing to prospective buyers called that SHORT RIFLE.......a
> carbine.
>
Is this one of your thinking=evidence episodes? It would only seem
rational by your scenario that they leave short rifle separate if they
thought carbine would have any negative appeal.
CJ
> > >http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0...Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
tomnln
"Walt" <papakoc...@evertek.net> wrote in message
news:0675c7ce-eed7-4a19...@34g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Curt;
Here's the ADD>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/Rifle.htm
From the actual magazine.
Oh Yeah! ! !
Here's a Bonus page>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/wally_world.htm
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Walt
> BOTTOM POST;
>
> "Walt" <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote in message
>
> Curt;
> Here's the ADD>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/Rifle.htm
>
> From the actual magazine.
>
> Oh Yeah! ! !
>
> Here's a Bonus page>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/wally_world.htm
Hey Tom.... I NOW know why you're being an asshole.
In providing the link to your website you've revealed why you are
attacking me with your juvenile antics.
Many times I have refuted your stupid ideas and replaced them with
commonsense and logic....and that makes you mad.
I'm sorry if you're too damned dumb to think logically...that's not MY
problem.
Oh .....and thanks for postin the link to the Klein ad that shows a 40
inch Mannlicher Cacano RIFLE in the ILLUSTRATION. The text calls it
a CARBINE but it is in fact a SHORT RIFLE. And the buyer could buy it
without a scope for $12.88 or they could by it AS ILLUSTRATED
AS ILLUSTRATED .....for $19.95.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
curtjester1
Tom knows like the rest of us that the ad says "36". Anyone would
know that the length would trump a picture since they had sold both in
the past. Nevermind that you cannot connect and short rifle with the
word carbine, either. So, we know the motivation by your obvious
MISinterpretation. It has to be about the BY Photo theory you
couldn't back out of which are so provably false all the way through.
It's like people getting caught in lies, they have to invent other
ones to make the one lie show up as 'bona fide'. We can bring out
people who service rifles and we can get Klein people who work on the
scopes to show without a doubt what length of rifle was in the Klein
wheelhouse that time period, but there's always going to be one that's
going to see something like an ad 'their way only.' Caveat Emptor.
CJ
tomnln
Walt wrote;
Many times I have refuted your stupid ideas and replaced them with
commonsense and logic....and that makes you mad.
I write;
Name ONE Walt.
That website quotes YOUR "Speculations".
SEE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/wally_world.htm
ALL in your own words.
Brokedad
>
> read more �
Keep going!
http://www.carbinesforcollectors.com/9124ts.html
1. The "Carbine Ad" from which the rifle was purportedly ordered, in
fact shows the Model 91/24 Carbine.
Which is in fact an old Long Rifle which beginning in the year 1924,
thousands were cut back in length.
Approximately 13 inches from the forward end of the barrel was removed
to make the weapon the length of the regular TS Carbine. However,
these weapons were highly inaccurate due to "progressive gain" twist
rifling, and the removal of the final portion of the barrel which
ultimately imparted the necessary spin to the bullet to maintain full
stability in flight.
2. That the Ad shows the Model 91/24 is an "absolute" and can be
readily determined by looking at the rear sight which had a much
longer elevation/range adjustment than did the true TS Carbines.
http://www.carbinesforcollectors.com/m91ts.html
=======================================================================================
The Ad for the "40" inch rifle is an ad that Holmes found and produced
as being the weapon, and unless one were a complete Expert on the
Carcano weapon in 1963, there is no way in which one could ascertain
from the Backyard Photo exactly what weapon it is that LHO is observed
holding.
Unless of course one had seen the weapon prior! As in being opened
and examined at the Post Office!
Hope that helps some.
Tom
Walt
Some ignoramus or liar wrote:
1. The "Carbine Ad" from which the rifle was purportedly ordered,
in fact shows the Model 91/24 Carbine.
The rifle in the illustration is 40 inches long.... Very easy to prove
by knowing thar the trigger guard /magazine housing is 6 3/4 inches
long on ALL 6.5mm Carcanos. It makes no difference it the Carcano is
a 36 inch carbine, a 40 inch Short rifle, a 46 inch Model 41, or a 50
1/2 inch rifle ...the magazine/trigger housing is 6 3/4 inches long.
Since we know this we can use that trig /mag housing as a scale to
determine the length of the rifle in any photograph.
In the enlarged copy of the Klein ad that I'm measuring the 6 3/4 inch
housing measures 1.35" . That means 6 3 /4 is reprepresented by
1.35". ( 6.750 divided by 1.3 5= 5 ) In other words the actual
trigger housing would be 5 times longer than it is shown in the photo.
Now when I measure the length of the rifle in my enlarged copy of the
ad I find that it measures slighly longer than 8 inches so I multiply
8.1 X 5 and find that the rifle is approximately 40.5 inches long.
The ignoramus / liar provided a link to a website which shows a 36
inch model 91/24 carbine. It's a piece of cake to verify that it is
in fact 36 inches long in the photo bt using the 6 3/4 inch trigger
guard as a scale . You can verify that my method is valid.
> Which is in fact an old Long Rifle which beginning in the year 1924,
> thousands were cut back in length.
>
> Approximately 13 inches from the forward end of the barrel was removed
> to make the weapon the length of the regular TS Carbine. However,
> these weapons were highly inaccurate due to "progressive gain" twist
> rifling, and the removal of the final portion of the barrel which
> ultimately imparted the necessary spin to the bullet to maintain full
> stability in flight.
>
> 2. That the Ad shows the Model 91/24 is an "absolute" and can be
> readily determined by looking at the rear sight which had a much
> longer elevation/range adjustment than did the true TS Carbines.
>
> http://www.carbinesforcollectors.com/m91ts.html
>
> =======================================================================================
curtjester1
>
> Keep going!
>
> http://www.carbinesforcollectors.com/9124ts.html
>
> 1. The "Carbine Ad" from which the rifle was purportedly ordered, in
> fact shows the Model 91/24 Carbine.
> Which is in fact an old Long Rifle which beginning in the year 1924,
> thousands were cut back in length.
>
> Approximately 13 inches from the forward end of the barrel was removed
> to make the weapon the length of the regular TS Carbine. However,
> these weapons were highly inaccurate due to "progressive gain" twist
> rifling, and the removal of the final portion of the barrel which
> ultimately imparted the necessary spin to the bullet to maintain full
> stability in flight.
>
> 2. That the Ad shows the Model 91/24 is an "absolute" and can be
> readily determined by looking at the rear sight which had a much
> longer elevation/range adjustment than did the true TS Carbines.
>
> http://www.carbinesforcollectors.com/m91ts.html
>
>
> The Ad for the "40" inch rifle is an ad that Holmes found and produced
> as being the weapon, and unless one were a complete Expert on the
> Carcano weapon in 1963, there is no way in which one could ascertain
> from the Backyard Photo exactly what weapon it is that LHO is observed
> holding.
>
> Unless of course one had seen the weapon prior! As in being opened
> and examined at the Post Office!
>
> Hope that helps some.
>
> Tom
Tom, even though there are people who can tell that even the ad rifle
is different than the ones found in the TSBD and BY Photos, and even
the "36" Carbine, they don't know the history of Klein's sales of the
MC's nor the shipping and MO and inside of Klein's at the time during
the assassination and preceding it. Klein's used to sell the 40 inch
MC 7.35mm in 1958 and in 1960 sold the 41.5 " 6.5mm in Nov. 60 - Feb
1962. They only had 200 left and had an ad which said, "While only
200 last...$10.88." In early 1962 they placed orders for the 36"
carbines.
It's obvious through all the evidence and even the ad itself
specifying 36" in the Feb. 63 issue of American Rifleman that it was
the one ordered. Even the so-called order form had carbine which the
40 inchers are never designated (always Short Rifle...and Carbines
have a TS or T designation). Of course I think that having the whole
process being a matter of SS, Feds, Kleins, Holmes and even the WC
huddling to get a complete trail of paperwork tied to the
weapon....and am attempting to prove that.
I have been posting in recent days besides this post and here is
one. There is also an Exposing Postal Inspector/FBI Informant Harry
D. Holmes Post if you care to look that up. Here's the Money Order
and the 7 Points of Contention Proof and the Papertrail had to be made
of:
So far nobody believes here that a 40.2" MC was ordered save one lost
soul who likes to hold on to a bad idea that one of the BY Photos is
real <sigh>
Happy investigating,
CJ
Walt
>
> So far nobody believes here that a 40.2" MC was ordered save one lost
> soul who likes to hold on to a bad idea that one of the BY Photos is
> real <sigh>
>
> Happy investigating,
>
Walt
>
> So far nobody believes here that a 40.2" MC was ordered save one lost
> soul who likes to hold on to a bad idea that one of the BY Photos is
> real <sigh>
For Gary Bergman, Aka Curt Jester, Aka CJ......
http://whokilledjfk.net/Rifle.htm
The above link will take you to the Klein ad. You'll notice that the
gun in Klein illustration is 40 inches long. Which means it is what
the Italians called a Model 91 /38 SHORT RIFLE. It is NOT a carbine
but Kleins called it a carbine,
It clearly says in large black letters...." 6.5 ITALIAN CARBINE"
Then down in the smaller text they say that the buyer can buy this
carbine with the scope attached AS ILLUSTRATED for $19.95
This is the ad that the WC claimed that AJ Hidell who allegedly was
LH Oswald ordered the TSBD rifle.
Unless you are a complete imbecile it's obvious that this is the rifle
that AJ Hidell expected to receive from Kleins.
David Von Pein
>>> "The serial number on the order for the Carbines was only given to the Short Rifles when they went back on the market in June. Oops, too late for a weapon ordered 4 months prior." <<<
You're an idiot.
And you're obviously an idiot who is 100% wrong. (And that's not a
very good combination at all.)
Klein's had a rifle with "C2766" on it in their warehouse. They
shipped a rifle with that number to Hidell/Oswald. A rifle with that
exact number turns up on the Floor Of Death in the TSBD...which just
happens to be a building that Oswald/"Hidell" works in.
Case slammed shut.
But these interlocking pieces of evidence aren't at all important to a
conspiracy-seeking moron. No. He'd rather look "outside the box", as
they say, for OTHER ways in which a rifle with that exact same serial
number (C2766) could have gotten up on that sixth floor on 11/22/63.
CT-Kooks continue to be a very strange lot indeed. Year after year.
curtjester1
> On Sep 28, 7:42 am, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote:
>
>
enough to try subvert my confidentiality, and trust is demonstrated by
his most recent post. He has become vile, purposely disruptive, and
outright showing a pattern of lying. I gave him the ultimatum of not
violating a breach of trust of internet policy and good-will amongst
posters with a complete fair warning on Sept. 26th (below). I see him
as one now who goes out of his way to keep an overt way of evil
fomenting. Good riddance, troll.
> Hey Gary,.... Where are you going to learn the truth about whose
> identification cards were in that wallet????
If you use that name G***, you will never here an answer again from
this one. I suppose you are now jumping issues because the others
are
unanswerable....
CJ
> CJ- Hide quoted text -
Walt
Walt
> On Sep 28, 8:55 am, curtjester1 <curtjest...@hotmail.com> wrote:> On Sep 28, 7:42 am, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote:
>
> I will no longer be associating with the above. His fuel-hatred
> enough to try subvert my confidentiality, and trust is demonstrated by
> his most recent post. He has become vile, purposely disruptive, and
> outright showing a pattern of lying. I gave him the ultimatum of not
> violating a breach of trust of internet policy and good-will amongst
> posters with a complete fair warning on Sept. 26th (below). I see him
> as one now who goes out of his way to keep an overt way of evil
> fomenting. Good riddance, troll.
Wow!!...You gave me an ultimatum.....are you in position to be
delivering ultimatums??
I will no longer be associating with the above. His fuel-hatred
enough to try subvert my confidentiality, and trust is demonstrated by
his most recent post.
Isn't your real name Gary Bergman?? Why do you hide behind an
alias??
He has become vile, purposely disruptive, and outright showing a
pattern of lying.
Please repost what you perceive as a "lie"
I gave him the ultimatum of not violating a breach of trust of
internet policy and good-will amongst posters with a complete fair
warning on Sept. 26th (below). I see him as one now who goes out of
his way to keep an overt way of evil fomenting. Good riddance, troll.
You and several other CT's think my motive for rejecting your BS is
to simply be disruptive.....You are completely wrong. We can not get
to the truth by following BS.... Hoover and Johnson introduced enough
BS to keep us busy for a long time eliminating it. And THAT'S the
only way will see the true picture....throw out all of the
BS....Whether it comes from the LNer's or CT's like yourself, Rob, and
Tom.
I've stated my motive
tomnln
On 28 Sep, 16:47, curtjester1 <curtjest...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Keep going!
>
> >http://www.carbinesforcollectors.com/9124ts.html
>
> > 1. The "Carbine Ad" from which the rifle was purportedly ordered, in
> > fact shows the Model 91/24 Carbine.
> > Which is in fact an old Long Rifle which beginning in the year 1924,
> > thousands were cut back in length.
>
> > Approximately 13 inches from the forward end of the barrel was removed
> > to make the weapon the length of the regular TS Carbine. However,
> > these weapons were highly inaccurate due to "progressive gain" twist
> > rifling, and the removal of the final portion of the barrel which
> > ultimately imparted the necessary spin to the bullet to maintain full
> > stability in flight.
>
> > 2. That the Ad shows the Model 91/24 is an "absolute" and can be
> > readily determined by looking at the rear sight which had a much
> > longer elevation/range adjustment than did the true TS Carbines.
>
> >http://www.carbinesforcollectors.com/m91ts.html
>
http://whokilledjfk.net/Rifle.htm
What would you do without me Walt???
There's another page on that website>>>>
http://whokilledjfk.net/wally_world.htm
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
tomnln
Let Walt's words speak for themselves>>>
http://whokilledjfk.net/wally_world.htm
> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------限限--------------------------------------------------------
>
> > > > Curt;
> > > > Here's the ADD>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/Rifle.htm
>
> > > > From the actual magazine.
>
> > > > Oh Yeah! ! !
>
> > > > Here's a Bonus page>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/wally_world.htm
>
> > > Hey Tom.... I NOW know why you're being an asshole.
>
> > > In providing the link to your website you've revealed why you are
> > > attacking me with your juvenile antics.
>
> > > Many times I have refuted your stupid ideas and replaced them with
> > > commonsense and logic....and that makes you mad.
>
> > > I'm sorry if you're too damned dumb to think logically...that's not MY
> > > problem.
>
> > > Oh .....and thanks for postin the link to the Klein ad that shows a 40
> > > inch Mannlicher Cacano RIFLE in the ILLUSTRATION. The text calls it
> > > a CARBINE but it is in fact a SHORT RIFLE. And the buyer could buy it
> > > without a scope for $12.88 or they could by it AS ILLUSTRATED
> > > AS ILLUSTRATED .....for $19.95.
>
> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------限限----------------------------------------------------------
robcap...@netscape.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
Good points CJ, and there is something else Walt fails to mention all
the time. Mr. Waldman testified that the shipment of the 100 rifles
(the bill of lading Walt loves) did NOT come in until February 21,
1963, thus making it impossible for them to be part of the February ad
for the American Rifleman magazine!!
Here is his testimony on this issue:
Mr. BELIN. I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Waldman
Deposition Exhibit 2 and ask you to state if you know what that is.
Mr. WALDMAN. I do.
Mr. BELIN. What is it?
Mr. WALDMAN. **This is a delivery receipt from the Lifschultz Fast
Freight covering 10 cases of guns delivered to Klein's on February 21,
1963, from Crescent Firearms.**
Mr. BELIN. I note that there is some handwriting on Waldman Deposition
Exhibit No. 2 that says, "Klein's Sporting Goods, Inc., J. A. Mueller,
2--21-63." Would that be one of your employees at that time?
Mr. WALDMAN. He was. Mr. Mueller was in charge of our receiving
department at that time.
Mr. BELIN. And do you know how many guns or rifles would have been
packed in each carton or case?
Mr. WALDMAN. Referring to the various delivery receipts, copies of
which we have, these are packing slips, incidentally, not receipts;
these were packing receipts included in each case. It was indicated
there were 10 rifles in each case.
Walt, why would Klein's order the weapons they would have advertised a
month before (monthly magazines go out the month before the date on
the magazine, meaning the February issue probably hit newstands,
stores and individual subscribers in January - exact time depends on
the date on the cover - it could have been early, middle or late in
the month) so late in the game, but just in time for LHO's alleged
March 12 order???
There is NO way they would have been hold orders for 3-4 weeks, or
longer, before the order came in on 2/21/63. This is definitely NOT
good business.
Why did Waldman NOT simply testify to the fact they ran out of 36"
Carbines, thus they substituted a 40" model instead at the same
price? The FACT they avoided this type of testimony and substituted
the wrong ad to make it look like LHO ordered a 40" model is what
makes it look like what it is - a lie to frame LHO. In fact this would
have been a great place to describe the type of the rifle, but they
don't, why?
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, you have just put the microfilm which we call
D-77 into your viewer which is marked a Microfilm Reader-Printer, and
you have identified this as No. 270502, according to your records. Is
this just a record number of yours on this particular shipment?
Mr. WALDMAN. That's a number which we assign for identification
purposes.
Mr. BELIN. And on the microfilm record, would you please state who it
shows this particular rifle was shipped
Mr. WALDMAN. Shipped to a Mr. A.--last name H-i-d-e-l-l, Post Office
Box 2915, Dallas, Tex.
Mr. BELIN. And does it show arts' serial number or control number?
Mr. WALDMAN. It shows shipment of a rifle bearing our control number
VC-836 and serial number C-2766.
Mr. BELIN. Is there a price shown for that?
Mr. WALDMAN. **Price is $19.95, plus $1.50 postage and handling, or a
total of $21.45.**
Mr. BELIN. Now, I see another number off to the left. What is this
number?
Mr. WALDMAN. **The number that you referred to, C20-T750 is a catalog
number.**
Mr. BELIN. And after that, there appears some words of identification
or description. Can you state what that is?
Mr. WALDMAN. **The number designates an item which we sell, namely, an
Italian carbine, 6.5 caliber rifle with the 4X scope.**
Mr. BELIN. Is there a date of shipment which appears on this microfilm
record?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; the date of shipment was March 20, 1963.
All three of the answers I marked with ** he could have described the
exact rifle, but he avoids it (as does Mr. Belin), why? Also missing
is the obvious question of exactly what type of rifle was ordered, why?
curtjester1
wrote:
in 62' they ordered the Carbines in January for their Feb ads. They
also were prone as the purchase order allows to include more than one
item on an order. The Jan 62' also had an October request for the
latter part of the year. It can be noted too that the 40-inchers were
on sale thru Klein's in 1958-60 (and they were of 7.35 mm caliber),
then they went with the 41.5s in Nov. thru Feb 62 of which they had
that closeout ad for the last 200 at a reduced rate for $10.88.
These are great points on Waldman, Rob. There seems to be a lot of
Waldman 'anomalies' in the rest of the article if you get a chance to
read them. Just want to let you know, I have had to distance myself
from your adversary here, as he thinks it befitting to have anger
enough to try to attack me through exposing a private name...through
advanced warning. If he can't understand pre-meditated, evil
behaviour, I doubt you are going to have any success on his Picture
Only Theory, even though the rest of us do. Your adversary even
advances that you and the rest are just the few heretic's, and the
general horde is backing him up. That's how delusional.....
CJ
tomnln
Walt
> WALT;
>
> NAME ONE????
>
> "tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote in message
>
> news:iOODk.603$A05...@newsfe08.iad...
>
>
>
>
>
The STEEL JACKETED bullet.......
>
> > That website quotes YOUR "Speculations".
>
> > SEE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/wally_world.htm
>
> > ALL in your own words.- Hide quoted text -
tomnln
>
> >> Curt;
> >> Here's the ADD>>>http://whokilledjfk.net/Rifle.htm
>
> >> From the actual magazine.
>
> >> Oh Yeah! ! !
>
> >> Here's a Bonus page>>>http://whokilledjfk.net/wally_world.htm
>
> > Hey Tom.... I NOW know why you're being an asshole.
>
> > In providing the link to your website you've revealed why you are
> > attacking me with your juvenile antics.
>
> > Many times I have refuted your stupid ideas and replaced them with
> > commonsense and logic....and that makes you mad.
>
> > I'm sorry if you're too damned dumb to think logically...that's not MY
> > problem.
>
> > Oh .....and thanks for postin the link to the Klein ad that shows a 40
> > inch Mannlicher Cacano RIFLE in the ILLUSTRATION. The text calls it
> > a CARBINE but it is in fact a SHORT RIFLE. And the buyer could buy it
> > without a scope for $12.88 or they could by it AS ILLUSTRATED
> > AS ILLUSTRATED .....for $19.95.
>
> > Walt wrote;
>
> > Many times I have refuted your stupid ideas and replaced them with
> > commonsense and logic....and that makes you mad.
>
> > I write;
>
> > Name ONE Walt.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Walt wrote;
The STEEL JACKETED bullet.......
I write;
You Stupid Bastard;
I already gave you the Official DPD report dated April 10, 1963.
(Volume XXIV page 39)
It even has the metallurgical breakdown.
That website quotes YOUR "Speculations".
SEE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/wally_world.htm
ALL in your own words.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------