Re: Am I 100% Aquarian?
Edmond H. Wollmann
Thanks!
On Nov 4, 8:51�pm, E H Wollmann Professional Astrologer
<acheaopt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Nov 4, 10:12�am, "A B" <a@a> wrote:
>
> > "Edmond H. Wollmann" <arcturian...@earthlink.net> wrote on 3rd November:
>
> > > Archetypes (astrological signs) are references to concepts and
> > > consciousness, like genes they describe potentials, not dicta.
>
> > Of course. �But as far as any chart goes, that is a pretty striking one.
> > A. B.
>
> But you see, this shows how little people pay attention to the
> delineation steps and analysis proceedures I have laid out and
> demonstrated as coherent many times.
> I have seen this chart before, there was an eclipse at this time.
> What is more important than the fact there is a stellium in Aquarius
> (7 planets) is the fact that if you follow my rules for INITIAL
> delineation, this gives us 11 points in fixed signs (rigidity-the
> energy motion of belief) only 1 mutable (flexibility and the fluidity
> of thought) and 10 air (plus MC) 1 fire, 1 earth and 1 water. Hence,
> although without logical analysis the mind wishes to attach
> significance to the pile-up in Aquarius, it is really what the
> IMBALANCE indicates that is more telling. Please see :http://www.astroconsulting.com/FAQs/pyramids.htm
>
> "The masculine Fire element represents the Trinity of Identity. Aries
> (belief), Leo (emotion), Sagittarius (faith and trust apex/thought).
> When positively balanced in representation reflects a healthy sense of
> identity validity and effectual ego importance. When lacking or low (1
> point or less) a mistrust of the self and its creative birthright.
> There is difficulty entering into experiences with trust and
> spontaneity. When overemphasized, zeal blinds the self to truths and
> temperament reigns. Positive; inspired trust. Negative (or in Grand
> Trine); a fear of being ignored and ego defensiveness.
>
> Feminine Earth, the Trinity of Physicality. Taurus (emotion), Virgo
> (thought), Capricorn (physical manifestation apex/belief). When
> positively balanced a recognition that the Earth and materiality is a
> spiritual experience through functional adequacy. It is not something
> to be shunned and "overcome". It is the love of money above other
> considerations that is the root of evil, not money. The physical world
> is the material version of spirit. When it is low or lacking there is
> the fear or belief that material things are base or dangerous. There
> is difficulty with stability in day-to-day affairs. When excessive,
> preoccupation with material things and strategy. Positive; functional
> adequacy. Negative (or in Grand Trine); fear of losing control, and a
> lack of imagination.
>
> Masculine Air, the Trinity of Idea Interaction. Gemini (thought),
> Libra (belief), and Aquarius (ideological validation apex/emotion).
> When positively balanced there is a trust in the development, validity
> and contribution of the identity's idea expression, interaction and
> reflection socially, through ideological appreciation. All beings are
> valid as one of the different ways that "All That Is" has of
> expressing itself, because they are reflections of itself, as others
> are reflections of ourselves. When low or lacking there is little
> trust in the idea of others being of reflective service and therefore,
> a lack of analytical discernment. There is an abbreviation of abstract
> perspective abilities and difficulty seeing the self as others do.
> When excessive there is a preoccupation with the self and its
> perspectives. Positive; Social and intellectual appreciation and
> vigor. Negative (or in Grand Trine); fears of being unappreciated and
> overcompensatory rationalizations. The identity lives and dies by the
> social mirror.
>
> The feminine Water signs is the Trinity of Belief Momentum (E-motion).
> Cancer (belief), Scorpio (emotion), and Pisces (empathic synchronous
> accord apex/thought). When positively balanced there is a trust in the
> sensibilities, instincts and intuition or empathic discernment. The
> ability to walk in someone else's shoes helps dissolve the need to
> dominate, breaks down the barriers between us and others, and
> therefore between us and "All That Is". The barriers between us and
> others is the same as the barrier between us and our higher self. When
> low or lacking there is a difficulty or a lack of trust in the idea
> that others are reflective in service. Things are taken extremely
> personally. There is a fear of not being emotionally discerned, while
> others emotions are not considered. When excessive the identity may
> have difficulty with self definition through too much focus on forms
> of sympathy. Positive; Intuitive access and appreciation of the
> unconscious momentums. Negative (or in Grand Trine); A fear of being
> taken advantage of and being hurt.
>
> When there is a preponderance of the Cardinal quadruplicity of belief
> Mode there is an exaggerated emphasis on action and leadership to
> defend against the perceived threat of identity invalidity and status
> concerns. When they are low or lacking there is a lack of recognition
> that action reflects belief conviction.
>
> When Fixed quadruplicity of emotion is emphasized there is a focus on
> the consolidation of the identity and a rigid preoccupation with self
> worth and creative prowess. When low or lacking there is an issue with
> resourcefulness.
>
> When Mutable quadruplicity of thought is the most predominant mode
> there will be a focus on the diversity and dissemination of
> information and perspectives. When excessive resources can be wasted
> and scattered, and when lacking, critical thinking, discernment and
> vision may suffer as well as an inability to see diverse points of
> view."
>
> Therefore, this person would be fixated on self worth and creative (in
> this case innovative) prowess. Magnified by the ruler Uranus, being in
> Leo Rx. Massive air count indicates ideological validation as the
> method of that fixation.
>
> The LACKING elements and modes can be read from the delineations I
> created above as well, i.e., 1 Mutable (Pluto Rx): "when lacking,
> critical thinking, discernment and vision may suffer as well as an
> inability to see diverse points of view."
>
> So we get a sense right off the bat that BALANCE is missing in the
> primal belief system functioning and the only thing striking about the
> chart is how much the identity relies on certain aspects of reality
> and discounts others.
> The square with Neptune would indicate that this developmental process
> to become more aware and flexible might come through creative
> expression (acting, the arts, music). The Pluto is also the only point
> in Earth: "When it is low or lacking there is the fear or belief that
> material things are base or dangerous." Hence, there may be an
> unrealistic or less than pragmatic appraoch to resolving issues, and
> the need for stability becomes apparent as there might be difficulty
> in dealing with the mundane. So we begin to see what I have termed in
> my book "the law of momentum flow" taking shape already.
> The questions to the client would then revolve around; what and how
> did the parental relationship contribute to this overwhelming focus on
> the uniqueness or ideology of the identity being so focused and in
> such high profile?
>
> Only Neptune is in Water. Low water indicates as I state above:" When
> low or lacking there is a difficulty or a lack of trust in the idea
> that others are reflective in service." so there would be social needs
> mostly to validate the individuality, not as a mirror to broaden and
> encourage diversity and allowance.
>
> This is brief but hopefully helpful and more realistic way to begin
> analysing charts. Because life is the experiencing of polarity and
> opposites, it is BALANCE and integration of all that is that is
> important, not being100% anything, which can indicate psychological
> fears and overcompensation rather than balance, because a chart has
> many factors and when they work together with equal validity all
> around it is easier to be positive and flowing and reflects less
> "issue" with any particular archetype which are all valid, equal and
> all real.
>
> Thanks.
>
> "Any man who reads too much and uses his own brain too little falls
> into lazy habits of thinking."
> Albert Einstein
Edmond H. Wollmann P.M.A.F.A.
� 2009 Altair Publications, SAN 299-5603
Astrological Consulting http://www.astroconsulting.com/
Artworks http://www.astroconsulting.com/personal/
The SUN http://www.edmondwollmann.com/
CFA
>Anmswer to the 100% Aquarian post.
>Thanks!
>> Only Neptune is in Water. Low water indicates
"Low water" with Neptune square the Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, and
Jupiter?
Ken
--
cfa at alt dot net
Todd Carnes
"CFA" <bo...@alt.not> wrote in message
news:IpidnWilB6b9dq7W...@earthlink.com...
Todd Carnes
Ken,
You don't use aspects to determine what elements are in the chart -
only planet placements. (But I'm pretty sure you already knew that.)
So, if you are one of the people who insists on using the outers as
planets, then what Ed said was right. One "planet" in water = "low"
water.
I would have said there was NO water being contributed by the planets,
but a whole lot of air. :)
Todd
CFA
>On Dec 24, 5:40�pm, CFA <bo...@alt.not> wrote:
>> Edmond H. Wollmann wrote:
>> >Anmswer to the 100% Aquarian post.
>> >Thanks!
>> >> Only Neptune is in Water. Low water indicates
>>
>> "Low water" with Neptune square the Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, and
>> Jupiter?
>>
>> Ken
>> --
>> cfa at alt dot net
>
>Ken,
>
>You don't use aspects to determine what elements are in the chart -
>only planet placements. (But I'm pretty sure you already knew that.)
Yes.
>So, if you are one of the people who insists on using the outers as
>planets,
Like the majority of tropical geocentric astrologers?
>then what Ed said was right. One "planet" in water = "low" water.
It's a broken system of measurement.
>I would have said there was NO water being contributed by the planets,
>but a whole lot of air. :)
>
>Todd
Ken
Edmond H. Wollmann
Only an outer planet in water element is low water and signifies the
psychological overcompensation I just indicated at length. It always
works.
Art analogies work well:
If you are going to paint a paiting in oil for example, and the
primary colors will be blue and say red, then the canvas can be
painted with those colors overall of it which gives us the "overall
coloring" of the idea we will paint, likewise a persons chart has an
overall coloring base we might say that gives us the "effect" of the
base beliefs--these are shown by the Elements. The planets then become
the figures and details painted on that overall effect.
And no matter what you color over it, or what planets do what, the
base will still be blue/red. And none of the overlay will ever stop
that.
Understand?
Thanks
CFA
I didn't say that. What I said was Neptune squaring four personal
planets does not indicate a chart low in water.
>Understand?
>Thanks
Edmond H. Wollmann
I am quite clear on what you said, it simply is irrelevant in
analysis. It is like saying a lake that is low on water is not
"really" because there are lots of boats on it. Low water takes things
personally in an attempt to "feel" things, but usually only in selfish
terms and has difficulty empathising with others or really feeling
what they are feeling.
CFA
Then I'd like to suggest you're missing some huge chart cues.
>It is like saying a lake that is low on water is not
>"really" because there are lots of boats on it. Low water takes things
>personally in an attempt to "feel" things, but usually only in selfish
>terms and has difficulty empathising with others or really feeling
>what they are feeling.
And? I've seen that in people with water Sun signs- two with both Sun
and Moon in Pisces.
Ken
--
cfa at alt dot net
======================================= MODERATOR'S COMMENT:
Both of you: Please provide sufficient argumenation instead of minimal bits of counterargument and rhetorical devices.
pedantus
> I met Alois Treindl (founder of astro,com) once in early 2005,
> actually at the day when there was an exact opposition of
> t.Neptune (in Aquarius) to my natal sun, and at the occasion
> he also took a quick look at my birth chart and, as far as I
> remember, he mentioned the imbalance between elements
> first (4 trad. planets in water, 3 in fire, no trad. planets in air
> or earth, ura-plu is in virgo, nep in sco). When I interjected
> that, hey Uranus and Pluto in earth he just mentioned that
> those are collective planets.
>
> That was apparenty his initial approach to a chart, at least
> in my case. Cannot judge it much rationally and my feelings
> are a bit mixed, maybe like this: If you somehow strive for a
> single best way of looking initially at a chart that gives best
> results averaged over all charts that you might ever look at
> (a bit like if you devise computer analyses like Alois does, and
> certainly very well, or when you make a scientific hypothesis
> of "the" way it is), then I think the elementary analysis might
> be the best approach and also be a good one in many
> situations. Seems to me maybe on the axis Aqu-Leo ?
> (I devised my elementary model of the star signs in 2001
> when the sun was in Aquarius, and am a Leo).
>
> The other approach here would likely be to look at each chart
> in its own right, like if it was a living individual (often it is!)
> who
> deserves a dedicated specialized look (art) that even adapts
> methods to some degree to the chart at hand (often indirectly
> by visiting the "right" astrologer). Deep or cheesy? Both?
>
> )o+
> --http://www.google.com/profiles/alain.stalder.chhttp://www.exactphilosophy.net/
It comes down to the needs of the "astrologer" ; but I think the need
to be definitively correct--in control of how other's are to be
defined, is quite "cheesy" , as you put it...: ) The fact that we can
know almost nothing about this Universe; in its essence, nothing but
our own artfully created relative terms, should at some point release
the ego from having to be god-like in its desire for apparent
infallibility....: ) Perhaps knowledge should indeed set one free, and
not chain the soul to an endless series of ego-sustaining parlor
tricks...always a rabbit appears from the hat on cue...: ) The truth
of the matter is, one cannot sell or trade experiences which do not
promise to "empower" someone; thus, it is only Power that is
ostensibly offered to the consumer of promises, and not a more soul-
enhancing understanding of our collective ignorance...: |
Think of the Trinity of: House 2, -House 6, -House 10, in the
abstract. See here how Personal Increase(H2) is tied to Service (H6)
by way of Governing Power (H10). This psychical "molecule" of three
parts does not exist if one part is removed, and any one part is so
like the other two when they operate in unison, as a kind of
"molecule" of human motivation, that the confusion of Service with
the exercise of Power ends up being defined as the Power of Money, or
the Service of Power. So tempting it its for the ego to say; " *I*
have the Power to Serve!" Here we have conjured House 10 plus House
6; but what is in the soul's House 2, of Personal Increase--what
spiritual equivalent of Money is here the third atomic member of this
"molecule" of human motivation? Only the Soul has the potential for
the kind of Personal Increase needed to bond the abstract trinity--
<H2-H6-H10>.
Power is "cheesy" : the Self is "deep". Service may be nearly
impossible due to the soul's complete lack of understanding of the
essentials we pretend to control/manipulate by way of our ego-serving
definitions.
Pedantus Pontificus...: )
Edmond H. Wollmann
> I met Alois Treindl (founder of astro,com) once in early 2005,
> actually at the day when there was an exact opposition of
> t.Neptune (in Aquarius) to my natal sun, and at the occasion
> he also took a quick look at my birth chart and, as far as I
> remember, he mentioned the imbalance between elements
> first (4 trad. planets in water, 3 in fire, no trad. planets in air
> or earth, ura-plu is in virgo, nep in sco). When I interjected
> that, hey Uranus and Pluto in earth he just mentioned that
> those are collective planets.
>
> That was apparenty his initial approach to a chart, at least
> in my case.
Correct. Because real astrology takes careful analysis and application
of methods and understandings. Now, the planets and their aspects do
then ALTER the initial deductions based on Element count, and may make
some of the initial observations more or less potent, but they do not
ERADICATE the initial deduction. That is what separates astrologers,
from professional astrologers. There are other factors too, like the
arrival of the client and how they present and affirm or deny
deductions by their behavior. This is why psychology is intimately
connected with counseling astrology.
I hope that serves in someway to clarify the idea.
Thanks
CFA
I'm not disputing what the elemental table says. I don't think it's
the only indicator of water (or lack thereof) in the chart, though.
My experience is that major planetary aspects are at least as strong
as sign placements (and of course nothing is canceled out when the
aspect/s conflict with the signs). There are few more purely emotional
aspects than a Moon/Venus conjunction square Neptune (aside from some
kind of Pluto involvement). Neptune, as the ruler of Pisces in my
world, would certainly seem to emphasize the emotional focus. For the
classicists, in the chart in question, Jupiter, as the traditional
ruler of Pisces, is part of the Aquarius stellium.
To call this chart low in the water element is technically correct. To
call it low in water indications seems like missing some major cues.
pedantus
> CFA wrote:
> >Edmond H. Wollmann wrote:
Not to mention the chart in question is very little different from
the singer/songwriter Clint Black...: ) Rather than "predicting" what
a chart should say about the native, I'd rather see how a chart's
potential plays out in the flesh. :
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Black,_Clint
A real "low Water" kind of fella:
�I intend to keep writing Christmas songs. There's still a lot more
about Christmas that can be captured and feel like old-time Christmas.
A lot of the traditions haven't been explained in song.� Clint Black
So, now, we can see how these natal planets in; aspects, signs,and
houses, probably contribute to the behavior of an actual person--not
just an imaginary one one conjured up by the individual bias of any
particular astrologer. It is more "scientific" to do this kind of
observation, I think, even if the scientific observation model cannot
ever actually apply to a sample of one.
The abstract expression of natal chart potentials is much more the
key to understanding the art of astrology; rather than any
hypothetically marketable predictions of life events, etc.. Clint
Black's debut alum is entitled "Killin' Time." This expression is
probably how the soul uses our human innate talent for symbolic
alchemy to create art--communicable spirit. The artist converts, say,
natal Mars conjucnt Saturn into an expressible abstraction by way of
their square to Neptune. Astrological timing and literalism is like
religious fundamentalism...just silly, really...:) We cannot know that
which we cannot know. I say, too bad, suck it up, live with it.....: )
Rog
Edmond H. Wollmann
>
> I have put a drawing for the "aquarius cubed" birth chart:
>
> �http://lh6.ggpht.com/_M_Yn4lKv3Dw/Sz2q88EBsCI/AAAAAAAAAXc/WeOiTJXa0Tc...
>
> And here is a meager attempt by a novice (me) to approach the chart
> traditionally. It is a nocturnal chart, so I first look at the moon
> and then by sect at Venus and Mars. Moon and Venus are conjunct at 18
> Aqu in the 5th (at least with Placidus houses), and, which I guess
> would be significant, conjunct the southern lunar node. Mars is also
> in Aquarius (at 2*) and also in the 5th.
>
> As far as I understand the traditional approach, it is also very much
> based on the elements, in particular their composition into dry/wet
> and hot/cold as proposed by Aristotle. A traditional astrologer might
> argue that basing the first step in chart analysis on a duality (day/
> night, or male/female elements) is the right approach, can't get
> simpler than a duality, triplicities (character) and quadruplicities
> (elements) could be considered to come only later.
>
> My approach to a chart is often more intuitive and graphical, I
> usually look at the picture and try to feel something in it, to see
> maybe what is special, which would, of course, in turn fit with how my
> chart is interpreted in Alois' and Ed's approach and likely in many
> others...
>
> About two weeks ago, when the sun was in Sagittarius, I talked about
> astrology with my father, who is a Taurus with Jupiter in Sagittarius
> (let me leave info at that). He is in many ways very similar to me and
> so when he told me - without the anger/fear that skeptics usually
> display at least in public - that he thinks that astrology is not real
> in the scientific sense, that it works in his feeling by evoking a
> "resonance" in people when telling them things about their chart,
> about themselves - what was I to argue there? If a complete stranger
> had told me that, I would have most likely thought that it was because
> he did not look at astrology the way I did and did not invest the
> energy I did to do so.
>
> That's exactly the point! :)
>
> My father did not do that, simply because he was born a different day.
> Had I be born then and since we are very similar otherwise, why would
> I expect to have developed a different opinion than he has? And the
> other way round. If I look at his chart, there is a majority of
> planets in earth, and one in air, so compared to me his judgment is
> likely more realistic and rational than mine, hence one would expect
> that astrology does not work in the way that airplanes can be built or
> so, but in another way that is not so much related to an earth/air
> approach to the world. And scientific experiments so far sort of
> confirm this earth/air view.
>
> Still, personally I think and feel that this will be different, that a
> scientific proof of astrology is still possible, but maybe that's just
> me. Anyway, in my view the story above reminds me a lot of Saturn in
> Libra and at a square to Pluto in Capricorn (father-son, duality that
> is no exclusive, both views are consistent in relation to each other,
> none can be called right) - and the Mercury station on the n.node fits
> too, probably.
>
> Again, just my two naive cents... ;)
>
> )o+- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
The problem with the other two posters perspective is this:
Without the intention of derogating anyone (not a personal attack just
an analytical observation), Roger wants to make it a competition and
argue against my philosophies of self-empowerment etc. and is hung up
on his perception that I am some sort of egomaniac and so his
judgement is clouded and biased from his own power trips being
triggered and is telling us more of himself than the chart at hand (or
me). Ken wants to include information that WILL be included in the
analysis, but he jumps to it without due diligence and doesn't seem to
be able to know how to integrate the points he makes that I
acknowledge but that I disagree with as to their meaning and function.
The chart is not static because the person is not. It can be seen at
all of the persons possible developmental levels and so one must be
ready for the expression of any one of them from the "unknown person".
When a client comes in with the chart above all we can glean from it
is potentials and probabilities, there is no "that's the way it is."
There is however a method by which we can determine the BASIS for the
probabilities, and the more "scientifically" and organized and
psychologically feasible that is, the more likely we are to be
accurate with the clear primary identity status and therefore more
able to focus on the clients needs (and future) during the
consultation rather than making it a challenge to see if we are gonna
get it "right." Because that is not 100% possible anyway and that is a
waste of ego exercise.
All I am trying to point out is that this person (by simply counting
Elements) will be focused on the Aquarian idea of structured ideology
(like a hippie) in an airy way to promote some "new or freer" way of
thinking, and will be MISSING simple compassion or intuited empathy
that does not invite the ideology they are hung up on. Therefore they
will look very understanding and aware, but not really moved by much
more than the ideology concepts they need.
When we place the planetary aspects OVER that they become the VEHICLE
by which this person experiences developmental tension and fulfillment
of the initial deductions, i.e., the Neptune square is REINFORCING our
initial deduction (not contradictory) because it reflects that the
person needs to DEVELOP that idea, so there is no conflict in what I
am saying, but you cannot jump to that like a novice may do:-) without
securing the rational foundation to proceed with first. This is why
astrology makes little headway in realistic application because the
process is and should be rigorous FIRST and speculative second.
I hope that explains the idea of which I was trying to get to better
and I have offended no one in the process. Just telling it as I see
it.
Thanks
Edmond H. Wollmann P.M.A.F.A.
� 2009 Altair Publications, SAN 299-5603
Astrological Consulting http://www.astroconsulting.com/
Artworks http://www.astroconsulting.com/personal/
The SUN http://www.edmondwollmann.com/
======================================= MODERATOR'S COMMENT:
To those whom it may concern: Please focus upon astrology; the reason for most to read this group.
Edmond H. Wollmann
> On Jan 1, 7:42 pm, pedantus <pedan...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Dec 31 2009, 7:44 pm, CFA <bo...@alt.not> wrote:
>
> > > CFA wrote:
> > > >Edmond H. Wollmann wrote:
> > the singer/songwriter Clint Black...: ) Rather than "predicting" what
> > a chart should say about the native, I'd rather see how a chart's
>
> > � A real "low Water" kind of fella:
> > �I intend to keep writing Christmas songs. There's still a lot more
> > about Christmas that can be captured and feel like old-time Christmas.
> > A lot of the traditions haven't been explained in song.� Clint Black
>
> > houses, probably contribute to the behavior of an actual person--not
> > just an imaginary one one conjured up by the individual bias of any
> > observation, I think, even if the scientific observation model cannot
> > ever actually apply to a sample of one.
>
> > key to understanding the art of astrology; rather than any
> > Black's debut alum is entitled "Killin' Time." �This expression is
> > probably how the soul uses our human innate talent for symbolic
> > alchemy to create art--communicable spirit. The artist converts, say,
> > natal Mars conjucnt Saturn into an expressible abstraction by way of
> > religious fundamentalism...just silly, really...:) We cannot know that
> > which we cannot know. I say, too bad, suck it up, live with it.....: )
>
> > Rog
>
>
> In "my book" what I see/perceive about Clint Black in public fits with
> my way of seeing his chart: Lots of planets in Aquarius (air->water in
> my model), hence a great intellectual urge to give to others (sort of
> "emulate water", c.f. link with water pourer in my first post here),
> but little water in one's chart to take something to give from, hence
> Neptune remains as lone source of water...
>
> Actually some planets are in other houses than for the unknown
> California native, so maybe I am carrying it too far, but the unknown
> California native might be a more talented musician and an even more
> ferocious Republican than Clint Black ?
>
> Of course, that's just my limited relative perception of persons and
> charts... Maybe a look Clint Black's wife's chart would reveal some
> other sources of water ?
>
> )o+- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Well my post disappeared?
Edmond H. Wollmann P.M.A.F.A.
� 2010 Altair Publications, SAN 299-5603
Astrological Consulting http://www.astroconsulting.com/
Artworks http://www.astroconsulting.com/personal/
http://home.earthlink.net/~arcturianone/
======================================= MODERATOR'S COMMENT:
I have had problems accessing American sites over the New Year, but hopefully things will work okay now. (Your other post should then be next.) /Kjell
CFA
>The problem with the other two posters perspective is this:
>Ken wants to include information that WILL be included in the
>analysis, but he jumps to it without due diligence and doesn't seem to
>be able to know how to integrate the points he makes that I
>acknowledge but that I disagree with as to their meaning and function.
>The chart is not static because the person is not. It can be seen at
>all of the persons possible developmental levels and so one must be
>ready for the expression of any one of them from the "unknown person".
>When a client comes in with the chart above all we can glean from it
>is potentials and probabilities, there is no "that's the way it is."
Just for the record, I never claimed it was. Whatever else is going on
in that chart (a ton of air, for one), it also has some strong
indications of water experience.
I didn't try to "integrate" anything. It's rather difficult to nail
someone's state of mind, level of awareness, or any of a myriad of
possible behavior patterns simply from a chart.
I've made *one* main statement so far: this chart is not low on water.
>There is however a method by which we can determine the BASIS for the
>probabilities, and the more "scientifically" and organized and
>psychologically feasible that is, the more likely we are to be
>accurate with the clear primary identity status
The assumption being that the 'clear primary identity status' is from
the elemental table?
>and therefore more
>able to focus on the clients needs (and future) during the
>consultation rather than making it a challenge to see if we are gonna
>get it "right." Because that is not 100% possible anyway and that is a
>waste of ego exercise.
>All I am trying to point out is that this person (by simply counting
>Elements) will be focused on the Aquarian idea of structured ideology
>(like a hippie) in an airy way to promote some "new or freer" way of
>thinking, and will be MISSING simple compassion or intuited empathy
Any decent astrology book about, say, Neptune square the Moon, would
say just about exactly the opposite.
>that does not invite the ideology they are hung up on. Therefore they
>will look very understanding and aware, but not really moved by much
>more than the ideology concepts they need.
>When we place the planetary aspects OVER that they become the VEHICLE
>by which this person experiences developmental tension and fulfillment
>of the initial deductions, i.e., the Neptune square is REINFORCING our
>initial deduction (not contradictory) because it reflects that the
>person needs to DEVELOP that idea, so there is no conflict in what I
>am saying, but you cannot jump to that like a novice may do:-) without
>securing the rational foundation to proceed with first. This is why
>astrology makes little headway in realistic application because the
>process is and should be rigorous FIRST and speculative second.
>I hope that explains the idea of which I was trying to get to better
>and I have offended no one in the process. Just telling it as I see
>it.
For me, planets, and especially the hard planetary aspects, are the
energy in a chart: they are what move people. Everything else- signs,
houses, modes, elements, etc- is just style, filters, and situations-
how and where things get done.
So I'd guess the person in question thinks they think- that they 'see'
their thoughts as what guides and motivates them- but that the
conscious and/or unconscious emotional and/or intuitive aspects of
their personality drive their choices and perspectives, sometimes more
than they realize.
A less-aware person would probably experience it as a conflict between
what their heart says vs what their brain says. A more awake person
would just see two different ways of perception, moving toward 'the'
vision or intention.
Silveen
"CFA" <bo...@alt.not> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:68OdnYyn2P-g4dzW...@earthlink.com...
All in all, shouldn�t we / wouldn�t we consider to look at the
porgressed chart to figure how the person acts, or is likely
to act NOW ?
Just a thought, as this is what I am doing and one can really
see/understand why the (any) person has changed/progressed
(as in grown out of unpleasant situations / grown up)
since his natal planet�s positions in his/her chart, which will
of course always be "valid",
as those planetary positions are the given challenges for the
individual�s life. Its also a good way to see how the person
will develop, say if the natal planets are only minutes away
from changing houses and/or signs.
Lucky the chart owner whose planets had the "opportunity"
to move "out of harms way" (if there was any) and move
in a positive direction (changing signs, houses, aspects) to
give way for nice(r) challenges to work with.
btw: I had not followed the whole thread (too little time), so
I do hope I am (kind of) still "on target" with my thoughts. -
So much for right now.
Take care and
be well,
IRH/Silveen
don hindenach
>
> For me, planets, and especially the hard planetary aspects, are the
> energy in a chart: they are what move people. Everything else- signs,
> houses, modes, elements, etc- is just style, filters, and situations-
> how and where things get done.
This is very very close to how I see and read a chart. The only difference is a
minor one in that I look more to the aspect patterns in toto rather than giving
a bit of extra accent to the hard aspects.
Thanks to you for expressing this succinctly, Ken.
> So I'd guess the person in question thinks they think- that they 'see'
> their thoughts as what guides and motivates them- but that the
> conscious and/or unconscious emotional and/or intuitive aspects of
> their personality drive their choices and perspectives, sometimes more
> than they realize.
>
> A less-aware person would probably experience it as a conflict between
> what their heart says vs what their brain says. A more awake person
> would just see two different ways of perception, moving toward 'the'
> vision or intention.
>
> Ken
--
-donh-
donh at audiosys dot com
Edmond H. Wollmann
> Edmond H. Wollmann wrote:
> >The problem with the other two posters perspective is this:
> >Ken wants to include information that WILL be included in the
> >analysis, but he jumps to it without due diligence and doesn't seem to
> >be able to know how to integrate the points he makes that I
> >acknowledge but that I disagree with as to their meaning and function.
> >The chart is not static because the person is not. It can be seen at
> >all of the persons possible developmental levels and so one must be
> >ready for the expression of any one of them from the "unknown person".
> >When a client comes in with the chart above all we can glean from it
> >is potentials and probabilities, there is no "that's the way it is."
> Just for the record, I never claimed it was. Whatever else is going on
> in that chart (a ton of air, for one), it also has some strong
> indications of water experience.
I never said anything about a "water experience." The fact that the
Aquarius planets are SQUARE the Neptune is an indication of what the
water Element count gives us when we examine it. A disbelief that
emotional issues or empathic issues being the most trusted way to
experience reality.
Planets in quadrature (square opposition) indicate a conflict of
concepts (Aquarius/Scorpio) and therefore as I explain in my text,
conflicting belief structures. Trines on the other hand indicate the
two planets work together well as synchronistic and harmonious
beliefs. So the square does not indicate the development necessarily
of "Neptunian" ideas, UNLESS the square is fulfilled and integrated.
This we cannot know until we interact with the client (and if we have
a minimum of psychological training and awareness to interpret
behaviors that tell us this). If those ideas (which I am willing to
wager in this chart do) DO create conflict i.e., in this case a
tension regarding giving love and sex etc and and other values. I
don't have the chart in front of me, but if those issues in the houses
where the square exist do cause conflict (which is determined through
the analysis of the past and parents etc.) then the subject in
question HAS NOT integrated them, especially if it is still creating
conflict when transits hit this configuration. Then the Water Element
count being low becomes MORE significant and defeats your argument. If
the client fulfills the square and conflicting beliefs and integrates
the conflict, then the concept of Water Element being trusted is
increased and the delineation may be less significant. But it is NEVER
not relevant.
> I didn't try to "integrate" anything. It's rather difficult to nail
> someone's state of mind, level of awareness, or any of a myriad of
> possible behavior patterns simply from a chart.
Depends on how thorough you are in researching the past aspect
configurations.
> I've made *one* main statement so far: this chart is not low on water.
But it is. That much we can know. How detrimental or not we cannot
know yet.
> >There is however a method by which we can determine the BASIS for the
> >probabilities, and the more "scientifically" and organized and
> >psychologically feasible that is, the more likely we are to be
> >accurate with the clear primary identity status
> The assumption being that the 'clear primary identity status' is from
> the elemental table?
No, the Elements count BEGINS the analysis of that identity. It is
then built upon with other delineation. I have outlined this many
times:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.astrology.psychology/msg/cc21f77ee9d86faa?hl=en
> >and therefore more
> >able to focus on the clients needs (and future) during the
> >consultation rather than making it a challenge to see if we are gonna
> >get it "right." Because that is not 100% possible anyway and that is a
> >waste of ego exercise.
> >All I am trying to point out is that this person (by simply counting
> >Elements) will be focused on the Aquarian idea of structured ideology
> >(like a hippie) in an airy way to promote some "new or freer" way of
> >thinking, and will be MISSING simple compassion or intuited empathy
> Any decent astrology book about, say, Neptune square the Moon, would
> say just about exactly the opposite.
Hopefully, it would state that this idea is in DEVELOPMENT, not that
it is indicative of a watery person, which would be incorrect.
> >that does not invite the ideology they are hung up on. Therefore they
> >will look very understanding and aware, but not really moved by much
> >more than the ideology concepts they need.
> >When we place the planetary aspects OVER that they become the VEHICLE
> >by which this person experiences developmental tension and fulfillment
> >of the initial deductions, i.e., the Neptune square is REINFORCING our
> >initial deduction (not contradictory) because it reflects that the
> >person needs to DEVELOP that idea, so there is no conflict in what I
> >am saying, but you cannot jump to that like a novice may do:-) without
> >securing the rational foundation to proceed with first. This is why
> >astrology makes little headway in realistic application because the
> >process is and should be rigorous FIRST and speculative second.
> >I hope that explains the idea of which I was trying to get to better
> >and I have offended no one in the process. Just telling it as I see
> >it.
> For me, planets, and especially the hard planetary aspects, are the
> energy in a chart: they are what move people. Everything else- signs,
The developmental ones, square/opposition, yes, not the trines and
sextiles, they are the way the developmental issues are RESOLVED.
> houses, modes, elements, etc- is just style, filters, and situations-
> how and where things get done.
That is a rather simpleton kind of perspective on it. So the fact that
Adolf Hitler had 0 Water means it just wasn't his style to be
empathic?
> So I'd guess the person in question thinks they think- that they 'see'
> their thoughts as what guides and motivates them- but that the
> conscious and/or unconscious emotional and/or intuitive aspects of
> their personality drive their choices and perspectives, sometimes more
> than they realize.
That is a general statement that could apply to anyone. Their needs
are for Intellectual social fulfillment, not for empathic issues. That
is why Neptune NEEDS developing.
> A less-aware person would probably experience it as a conflict between
> what their heart says vs what their brain says. A more awake person
> would just see two different ways of perception, moving toward 'the'
> vision or intention.
This person listens little to the heart, they INNOVATE mentally their
way through empathy and life, with ideas about humankind and how we
should interact etc., that can't work very well for Water issues. They
could talk about a "one world" idea, but probably would not be working
in a hospital where little more than support and nurturing is needed
to the patient.
CFA
>On Jan 3, 10:59�pm, CFA <bo...@alt.not> wrote:
>> Edmond H. Wollmann wrote:
>> >The problem with the other two posters perspective is this:
>> >Ken wants to include information that WILL be included in the
>> >analysis, but he jumps to it without due diligence and doesn't seem to
>> >be able to know how to integrate the points he makes that I
>> >acknowledge but that I disagree with as to their meaning and function.
>> >The chart is not static because the person is not. It can be seen at
>> >all of the persons possible developmental levels and so one must be
>> >ready for the expression of any one of them from the "unknown person".
>> >When a client comes in with the chart above all we can glean from it
>> >is potentials and probabilities, there is no "that's the way it is."
>
>> Just for the record, I never claimed it was. Whatever else is going on
>> in that chart (a ton of air, for one), it also has some strong
>> indications of water experience.
>
>I never said anything about a "water experience."
Yes, that's what my comments addressed.
>The fact that the
>Aquarius planets are SQUARE the Neptune is an indication of what the
>water Element count gives us when we examine it. A disbelief that
>emotional issues or empathic issues being the most trusted way to
>experience reality.
Okay. So, at least one theme or focus is emotional or empathic issues,
and the challenge is trust. That's been my point all along- that the
parts of life described by the water element are in the foreground of
this chart (as well as whatever else the elemental table suggests,
etc).
> Planets in quadrature (square opposition) indicate a conflict of
>concepts (Aquarius/Scorpio) and therefore as I explain in my text,
>conflicting belief structures. Trines on the other hand indicate the
>two planets work together well as synchronistic and harmonious
>beliefs. So the square does not indicate the development necessarily
>of "Neptunian" ideas, UNLESS the square is fulfilled and integrated.
Agreed, though the level of development and integration wasn't in
question.
>This we cannot know until we interact with the client (and if we have
>a minimum of psychological training and awareness to interpret
>behaviors that tell us this). If those ideas (which I am willing to
>wager in this chart do) DO create conflict i.e., in this case a
>tension regarding giving love and sex etc and and other values. I
>don't have the chart in front of me, but if those issues in the houses
>where the square exist do cause conflict (which is determined through
>the analysis of the past and parents etc.) then the subject in
>question HAS NOT integrated them, especially if it is still creating
>conflict when transits hit this configuration. Then the Water Element
>count being low becomes MORE significant and defeats your argument.
The level of development isn't the issue, and doesn't change the water
"count". Someone with this kind of chart is going to have experiences,
or at least challenges, associated with the water element (and the
others previously mentioned), whether they are satisfying or not.
> If
>the client fulfills the square and conflicting beliefs and integrates
>the conflict, then the concept of Water Element being trusted is
>increased and the delineation may be less significant. But it is NEVER
>not relevant.
Yes, the delineation's success or significance is relevant.
>> I didn't try to "integrate" anything. It's rather difficult to nail
>> someone's state of mind, level of awareness, or any of a myriad of
>> possible behavior patterns simply from a chart.
>
>Depends on how thorough you are in researching the past aspect
>configurations.
>
>> I've made *one* main statement so far: this chart is not low on water.
>
>But it is. That much we can know. How detrimental or not we cannot
>know yet.
>
>> >There is however a method by which we can determine the BASIS for the
>> >probabilities, and the more "scientifically" and organized and
>> >psychologically feasible that is, the more likely we are to be
>> >accurate with the clear primary identity status
>
>> The assumption being that the 'clear primary identity status' is from
>> the elemental table?
>
>No, the Elements count BEGINS the analysis of that identity. It is
>then built upon with other delineation. I have outlined this many
>times:
>http://groups.google.com/group/sci.astrology.psychology/msg/cc21f77ee9d86faa?hl=en
Then it sounds like you don't use "other delineation", if you are
calling this chart low in water.
>> >and therefore more
>> >able to focus on the clients needs (and future) during the
>> >consultation rather than making it a challenge to see if we are gonna
>> >get it "right." Because that is not 100% possible anyway and that is a
>> >waste of ego exercise.
>> >All I am trying to point out is that this person (by simply counting
>> >Elements) will be focused on the Aquarian idea of structured ideology
>> >(like a hippie) in an airy way to promote some "new or freer" way of
>> >thinking, and will be MISSING simple compassion or intuited empathy
>
>> Any decent astrology book about, say, Neptune square the Moon, would
>> say just about exactly the opposite.
>
>Hopefully, it would state that this idea is in DEVELOPMENT, not that
>it is indicative of a watery person, which would be incorrect.
The person will deal with water- emotional- experiences, either
directly in their own body or by projection through others. Less
conscious people do tend to project unresolved issues this way, to a
greater or lesser degree. But the so-called 'source' of those
experiences doesn't matter- the person is guided to or 'forced' into
emotional experiences.
Water is in their chart, so emotional experiences are in their life,
and vice versa. Trust this information or not: I'm not making it up in
a vacuum.
>> >that does not invite the ideology they are hung up on. Therefore they
>> >will look very understanding and aware, but not really moved by much
>> >more than the ideology concepts they need.
>> >When we place the planetary aspects OVER that they become the VEHICLE
>> >by which this person experiences developmental tension and fulfillment
>> >of the initial deductions, i.e., the Neptune square is REINFORCING our
>> >initial deduction (not contradictory) because it reflects that the
>> >person needs to DEVELOP that idea, so there is no conflict in what I
>> >am saying, but you cannot jump to that like a novice may do:-) without
>> >securing the rational foundation to proceed with first. This is why
>> >astrology makes little headway in realistic application because the
>> >process is and should be rigorous FIRST and speculative second.
>> >I hope that explains the idea of which I was trying to get to better
>> >and I have offended no one in the process. Just telling it as I see
>> >it.
>
>> For me, planets, and especially the hard planetary aspects, are the
>> energy in a chart: they are what move people. Everything else- signs,
>
>The developmental ones, square/opposition, yes, not the trines and
>sextiles, they are the way the developmental issues are RESOLVED.
Isn't that basically what I said? And if it's true, doesn't that
diminish the importance of the elemental table?
>> houses, modes, elements, etc- is just style, filters, and situations-
>> how and where things get done.
>
>That is a rather simpleton kind of perspective on it. So the fact that
>Adolf Hitler had 0 Water means it just wasn't his style to be
>empathic?
It certainly fits, but I wouldn't say empathy requires the water
element.
>> So I'd guess the person in question thinks they think- that they 'see'
>> their thoughts as what guides and motivates them- but that the
>> conscious and/or unconscious emotional and/or intuitive aspects of
>> their personality drive their choices and perspectives, sometimes more
>> than they realize.
>
>That is a general statement that could apply to anyone. Their needs
>are for Intellectual social fulfillment, not for empathic issues. That
>is why Neptune NEEDS developing.
Right. And when someone suppresses or resists basic needs like this,
these needs have a habit of forcing their way into one's life.
>> A less-aware person would probably experience it as a conflict between
>> what their heart says vs what their brain says. A more awake person
>> would just see two different ways of perception, moving toward 'the'
>> vision or intention.
>
>This person listens little to the heart, they INNOVATE mentally their
>way through empathy and life, with ideas about humankind and how we
>should interact etc., that can't work very well for Water issues. They
>could talk about a "one world" idea, but probably would not be working
>in a hospital where little more than support and nurturing is needed
>to the patient.
Though they might be an excellent 'energy' worker, such as with Reiki,
and very much enjoy offering their support in that or similar ways.
Edmond H. Wollmann
>
> On Jan 3, 2:26 pm, "Edmond H. Wollmann" <arcturian...@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
> [...]
> would make *at least* a good candidate for a "canonical approach" to
> astrology in the sense in which wikipedia defines the word: "educed to
> the simplest and most significant form possible without loss of
> generality" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canonical). Hence likely
> also a good starting hypothesis for formal tests of astrology, and, of
> course, pragmatically might be used as a standard approach by many
> astrologers in the future, if it gives best known average results -
> also because it is easily taught and applied, i.e. little room for
> mistake on the side of astrologer or client. Anyway, At least I will
> likely count elements and characters in birth charts more often in the
> future.
>
> )o+
It is a method of organizing our approach to compiling the information
in the chart so we maintain clarity of approach to all charts in an
organized manner. Scientific repitition of methodology.
--
Edmond H. Wollmann P.M.A.F.A.
� 2010 Altair Publications, SAN 299-5603
Astrological Consulting http://www.astroconsulting.com/
Articles http://www.astroconsulting.com/FAQs/info.htm
Artworks http://www.e-wollmann.com/TOC.htm
Edmond H. Wollmann
I think maybe we need to let the client tell us, then we can compare the
current issues/actions with what we initially saw in the chart and
change our understanding of them. The we could probably see better how
they will react in the future.
--
Edmond H. Wollmann P.M.A.F.A.
� 2010 Altair Publications, SAN 299-5603
Astrological Consulting http://www.astroconsulting.com/
CFA
>On Mon, 4 Jan 2010 06:59:11 UTC, CFA <bo...@alt.not> wrote:
>>
>> For me, planets, and especially the hard planetary aspects, are the
>> energy in a chart: they are what move people. Everything else- signs,
>> houses, modes, elements, etc- is just style, filters, and situations-
>> how and where things get done.
>
>This is very very close to how I see and read a chart. The only difference is a
>minor one in that I look more to the aspect patterns in toto rather than giving
>a bit of extra accent to the hard aspects.
>
>Thanks to you for expressing this succinctly, Ken.
My pleasure :-)
Edmond H. Wollmann
But the square and the low Water point count indicate a DISbelief in
those issues as being "important" or functionally effective. Therefore
NOT relied upon, therefore NOT used to any great degree or trusted in
any great degree.
> and the challenge is trust. That's been my point all along- that the
> parts of life described by the water element are in the foreground of
> this chart (as well as whatever else the elemental table suggests,
> etc).
Not "trust" in general, trust of the Water element. This chart, is
unstable, not necessarily to the degree of inability to function, but to
the degree of...let me use a table with four legs analogy, this
imbalance of Elements indicates a trust in TWO of the legs as being
important, they are therefore longer, the other two are shorter from a
lack of trust; this table therefore is LESS stable than a table with all
legs equal in length. Beliefs are NOT in balance.
> > Planets in quadrature (square opposition) indicate a conflict of
> >concepts (Aquarius/Scorpio) and therefore as I explain in my text,
> >conflicting belief structures. Trines on the other hand indicate the
> >two planets work together well as synchronistic and harmonious
> >beliefs. So the square does not indicate the development necessarily
> >of "Neptunian" ideas, UNLESS the square is fulfilled and integrated.
> Agreed, though the level of development and integration wasn't in
> question.
It is because the elements are not balanced.
> >This we cannot know until we interact with the client (and if we have
> >a minimum of psychological training and awareness to interpret
> >behaviors that tell us this). If those ideas (which I am willing to
> >wager in this chart do) DO create conflict i.e., in this case a
> >tension regarding giving love and sex etc and and other values. I
> >don't have the chart in front of me, but if those issues in the houses
> >where the square exist do cause conflict (which is determined through
> >the analysis of the past and parents etc.) then the subject in
> >question HAS NOT integrated them, especially if it is still creating
> >conflict when transits hit this configuration. Then the Water Element
> >count being low becomes MORE significant and defeats your argument.
> The level of development isn't the issue, and doesn't change the water
> "count". Someone with this kind of chart is going to have experiences,
> or at least challenges, associated with the water element (and the
> others previously mentioned), whether they are satisfying or not.
Not necessarily, this person could function only with the elements
listed in balance and the overcompensation not noticed. The BTK killer
was thought to be a "nice" dog catcher.
> > If
> >the client fulfills the square and conflicting beliefs and integrates
> >the conflict, then the concept of Water Element being trusted is
> >increased and the delineation may be less significant. But it is NEVER
> >not relevant.
> Yes, the delineation's success or significance is relevant.
And this element count MUST be a part of the initial deductions and
incorporated into the remaining delineation.
> >> I didn't try to "integrate" anything. It's rather difficult to nail
> >> someone's state of mind, level of awareness, or any of a myriad of
> >> possible behavior patterns simply from a chart.
> >
> >Depends on how thorough you are in researching the past aspect
> >configurations.
> >> I've made *one* main statement so far: this chart is not low on water.
> >
> >But it is. That much we can know. How detrimental or not we cannot
> >know yet.
> >> >There is however a method by which we can determine the BASIS for the
> >> >probabilities, and the more "scientifically" and organized and
> >> >psychologically feasible that is, the more likely we are to be
> >> >accurate with the clear primary identity status
> >
> >> The assumption being that the 'clear primary identity status' is from
> >> the elemental table?
> >
> >No, the Elements count BEGINS the analysis of that identity. It is
> >then built upon with other delineation. I have outlined this many
> >times:
>http://groups.google.com/group/sci.astrology.psychology/msg/cc21f77ee9d86faa?hl=en
> Then it sounds like you don't use "other delineation", if you are
> calling this chart low in water.
The Neptune square does not alter this deduction, it ADDS to it. It
makes it MORE significant, and when you build upon the delineation using
the method I outlined it will lead you to the opening questions or
statements to get to the heart of the consultation when the client
arrives. The FEEDBACK from the client then tells you of thier MANAGEMENT
of the work you did in the delineation steps.
> >> >and therefore more
> >> >able to focus on the clients needs (and future) during the
> >> >consultation rather than making it a challenge to see if we are gonna
> >> >get it "right." Because that is not 100% possible anyway and that is a
> >> >waste of ego exercise.
> >> >All I am trying to point out is that this person (by simply counting
> >> >Elements) will be focused on the Aquarian idea of structured ideology
> >> >(like a hippie) in an airy way to promote some "new or freer" way of
> >> >thinking, and will be MISSING simple compassion or intuited empathy
> >
> >> Any decent astrology book about, say, Neptune square the Moon, would
> >> say just about exactly the opposite.
> >Hopefully, it would state that this idea is in DEVELOPMENT, not that
> >it is indicative of a watery person, which would be incorrect.
> The person will deal with water- emotional- experiences, either
> directly in their own body or by projection through others. Less
Define "emotional" experiences?
> conscious people do tend to project unresolved issues this way, to a
> greater or lesser degree. But the so-called 'source' of those
> experiences doesn't matter- the person is guided to or 'forced' into
> emotional experiences.
No one can be forced into anything, they create their experiences by the
beliefs they hold which they interject into the "props" of events and
give their meanings that way, the chart is helping us understand what
those meanings are they are giving the "props". Because nothing has
built in meaning, emotionally or otherwise.
> Water is in their chart, so emotional experiences are in their life,
I did not say anything about emotional experiences. The water element
allows us to understand others from an empathic sensitivity. Aquarius is
the opposite of Leo, social accolade is more importqant to them for
their intellect, not empathic support of others--unless it is in a
humanitarian mode (like Obama and the Haiti thing now Aquarius rising)
but he is standing in front of others cheerleading to do a "social
thing" he is not there in a tent as an unknown supporting the head of a
person.
> and vice versa. Trust this information or not: I'm not making it up in
> a vacuum.
>
> >> >that does not invite the ideology they are hung up on. Therefore they
> >> >will look very understanding and aware, but not really moved by much
> >> >more than the ideology concepts they need.
> >> >When we place the planetary aspects OVER that they become the VEHICLE
> >> >by which this person experiences developmental tension and fulfillment
> >> >of the initial deductions, i.e., the Neptune square is REINFORCING our
> >> >initial deduction (not contradictory) because it reflects that the
> >> >person needs to DEVELOP that idea, so there is no conflict in what I
> >> >am saying, but you cannot jump to that like a novice may do:-) without
> >> >securing the rational foundation to proceed with first. This is why
> >> >astrology makes little headway in realistic application because the
> >> >process is and should be rigorous FIRST and speculative second.
> >> >I hope that explains the idea of which I was trying to get to better
> >> >and I have offended no one in the process. Just telling it as I see
> >> >it.
> >
> >> For me, planets, and especially the hard planetary aspects, are the
> >> energy in a chart: they are what move people. Everything else- signs,
> >
> >The developmental ones, square/opposition, yes, not the trines and
> >sextiles, they are the way the developmental issues are RESOLVED.
>
> Isn't that basically what I said? And if it's true, doesn't that
> diminish the importance of the elemental table?
No, it tells us HOW the elemental table is applied. It may be less
pronounced, but remember, we don't choose life charts to live out a
whole life of learning with and then resolve it in a flash and do
nothing. There will be levels of development, but the Water element and
its distrust will be a lifelong issue.
> >> houses, modes, elements, etc- is just style, filters, and situations-
> >> how and where things get done.
> >
> >That is a rather simpleton kind of perspective on it. So the fact that
> >Adolf Hitler had 0 Water means it just wasn't his style to be
> >empathic?
> It certainly fits, but I wouldn't say empathy requires the water
> element.
Water IS the empathy element. Empathic, like Darryl Anka, the guy who
channels Bashar: Sun conjunct Neptune in Libra, Moon in Pisces. A strong
water WITH Neptune. Empathic.
> >> So I'd guess the person in question thinks they think- that they 'see'
> >> their thoughts as what guides and motivates them- but that the
> >> conscious and/or unconscious emotional and/or intuitive aspects of
> >> their personality drive their choices and perspectives, sometimes more
> >> than they realize.
> >
> >That is a general statement that could apply to anyone. Their needs
> >are for Intellectual social fulfillment, not for empathic issues. That
> >is why Neptune NEEDS developing.
> Right. And when someone suppresses or resists basic needs like this,
> these needs have a habit of forcing their way into one's life.
The low water means they ARE repressing it because they don't believe in
it. But you are underestimating its importance for the LIFE of a person.
> >> A less-aware person would probably experience it as a conflict between
> >> what their heart says vs what their brain says. A more awake person
> >> would just see two different ways of perception, moving toward 'the'
> >> vision or intention.
> >
> >This person listens little to the heart, they INNOVATE mentally their
> >way through empathy and life, with ideas about humankind and how we
> >should interact etc., that can't work very well for Water issues. They
> >could talk about a "one world" idea, but probably would not be working
> >in a hospital where little more than support and nurturing is needed
> >to the patient.
>
> Though they might be an excellent 'energy' worker, such as with Reiki,
> and very much enjoy offering their support in that or similar ways.
I am not familiar with Reiki, so I cannot say, if it has social
connotations and "innovative" characteristics, yes. But Aquarius likes
to be different, with too much Aquarius, we get being different for the
sake of being different, not reallty whether something works or not.
--
Edmond H. Wollmann P.M.A.F.A.
� 2010 Altair Publications, SAN 299-5603
Astrological Consulting http://www.astroconsulting.com/
Edmond H. Wollmann
> I wrote:
> > Take the following quote by Bertold Brecht (sun/Venus in Aquarius):
>
> > �http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Brecht,_Bertold
>
> In that context, of course, Venus closely conjunct the sun in Bert
> Brecht's chart, and both at a trine to Pluto and Neptune in Gemini,
> can probably not be disregarded... So maybe not 100% Aquarian ? ;)
>
> )o+
Just so I am clear, you are saying Aquarius is more "watery" than Leo
because it is closer to Pisces?
Edmond H. Wollmann
> On Jan 15, 10:06 am, "Edmond H. Wollmann" <arcturian...@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
> > CFA wrote:
> > > Water is in their chart, so emotional experiences are in their life,
>
> > I did not say anything about emotional experiences. The water element
> > allows us to understand others from an empathic sensitivity. Aquarius is
> > the opposite of Leo, social accolade is more importqant to them for
> > their intellect, not empathic support of others--unless it is in a
> > humanitarian mode (like Obama and the Haiti thing now Aquarius rising)
> > but he is standing in front of others cheerleading to do a "social
> > thing" he is not there in a tent as an unknown supporting the head of a
> > person.
>
> transition fire->air->water, i.e. mainly the transition air->water at
It is the Apex sign of the Air signs and the Apex sign of the Fixed
signs, how does this = water?
> a late stage with already lots of water. But it is "water" that
> emerges out of a life's intellectual (air) experience,
Then it's not water.
> it is mainly
> aimed at teaching, at imposing some kind of "plan" or "pattern" onto
> humanity as a whole in the interest to make things better for most of
> them, and often completely disregarding any kind of individual
> problems with that. So, empathy with the collective, but very little
> empathy with specific individuals. Certainly a little bit exaggerated
> as a sole description of Aquarius, but not without a true core in my
> personal opinion...
Aquarius is the "social" or interactive result of Leo expressions SELF
EXTENSIONS interacting. The social structure as the effect of each
individuals "Leo" creativity and expression and of of giving love--
SELF EXTENSION and the development of values therefrom (Taurus/
Scorpio). Grannd crosses, like Grand trines are all ONE THING. This is
why Aquarius has such a need for individuality and Leo such a need
for social recognition, because the shadow aspect of the sign is then
projected out into the "apparently" external reality.
> Take the following quote by Bertold Brecht (sun/Venus in Aquarius):
> �http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Brecht,_Bertold
> * Wenn Herr K. einen Menschen liebte
> * "Was tun Sie",wurde Herr K. gefragt, "wenn
> * Sie einen Menschen lieben?" "Ich mache einen
> * Entwurf von ihm", sagte Herr K, "und sorge,
> * dass er ihm �hnlich wird". "Wer, der Entwurf?"
> * "Nein", sagte Herr K., "Der Mensch".
> � -- Geschichten vom Herr Keuner
> Translation ("man" in the sense of human being, joke cannot be
> translated fully, trick is that "plan" and "man" could both be meant
> by the pronoun "er" above, ie. by "he" or "it" below...):
>
> * When Mr. K. loved a man
> *
> * "What do you do", Mr. K. was asked, "when
> * you love a man?" "I make a plan of him",
> * said Mr. K., "and take care that he/it becomes
> * more like he/it". "Who, the plan?"
> * "No", said Mr. K., "the man".
>
> )o+
>
> --http://www.google.com/profiles/alain.stalder.chhttp://www.exactphilosophy.net/
So the structuring of a social sign is watery? I am trying to
understand what you are saying. Please don't take offense.
Edmond H. Wollmann
>
> > �http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Brecht,_Bertold
>
> Brecht's chart, and both at a trine to Pluto and Neptune in Gemini,
> can probably not be disregarded... So maybe not 100% Aquarian ? ;)
>
> )o+
I can't read those types of charts, I see no water, is that correct?
Air signs deal in abstractions, ideas, concepts. Water signs support
and nurture.
Air signs talk about the locomotive aspects of your feet and how they
move you into different social arenas, Water signs rub them if they
are sore, or want to set them if they are broken.
CFA
>CFA wrote:
>> Edmond H. Wollmann wrote:
>> >On Jan 3, 10:59 pm, CFA <bo...@alt.not> wrote:
>> >> Edmond H. Wollmann wrote:
>> >The fact that the
>> >Aquarius planets are SQUARE the Neptune is an indication of what the
>> >water Element count gives us when we examine it. A disbelief that
>> >emotional issues or empathic issues being the most trusted way to
>> >experience reality.
>>
>> Okay. So, at least one theme or focus is emotional or empathic issues,
>
>But the square and the low Water point count indicate a DISbelief in
>those issues as being "important" or functionally effective. Therefore
>NOT relied upon, therefore NOT used to any great degree or trusted in
>any great degree.
The presence of a Neptune square to so many personal planets suggests
the person will not be able to 'escape' emotional or empathic
experiences, whether in their own body and life, or the lives of
important people (loved ones, family, etc). Their basic
vibration/essence attracts those events, whether they are consciously
important and/or functionally effective
>> and the challenge is trust. That's been my point all along- that the
>> parts of life described by the water element are in the foreground of
>> this chart (as well as whatever else the elemental table suggests,
>> etc).
>
>Not "trust" in general, trust of the Water element. This chart, is
>unstable, not necessarily to the degree of inability to function, but to
>the degree of...let me use a table with four legs analogy, this
>imbalance of Elements indicates a trust in TWO of the legs as being
>important, they are therefore longer, the other two are shorter from a
>lack of trust; this table therefore is LESS stable than a table with all
>legs equal in length. Beliefs are NOT in balance.
I'll agree with the analogy, but that's not the point or points I'm
making. And it is a trust issue. A square tends to put the messages of
two planets into conflict with each other, and a typical response is
to reject one or the other. That could be considered a trust issue.
Integration of a square means relying on the two differing qualities
in a harmonious way.
>> > Planets in quadrature (square opposition) indicate a conflict of
>> >concepts (Aquarius/Scorpio) and therefore as I explain in my text,
>> >conflicting belief structures. Trines on the other hand indicate the
>> >two planets work together well as synchronistic and harmonious
>> >beliefs. So the square does not indicate the development necessarily
>> >of "Neptunian" ideas, UNLESS the square is fulfilled and integrated.
>
>> Agreed, though the level of development and integration wasn't in
>> question.
>
>It is because the elements are not balanced.
Again, that's not my point. Balance or not, integration or not, is
very unlikely to change the presence of let's say Neptune experiences-
relationships and events- in the person's life. It only describes or
potentially describes the quality of those relationships and events.
>> >This we cannot know until we interact with the client (and if we have
>> >a minimum of psychological training and awareness to interpret
>> >behaviors that tell us this). If those ideas (which I am willing to
>> >wager in this chart do) DO create conflict i.e., in this case a
>> >tension regarding giving love and sex etc and and other values. I
>> >don't have the chart in front of me, but if those issues in the houses
>> >where the square exist do cause conflict (which is determined through
>> >the analysis of the past and parents etc.) then the subject in
>> >question HAS NOT integrated them, especially if it is still creating
>> >conflict when transits hit this configuration. Then the Water Element
>> >count being low becomes MORE significant and defeats your argument.
>
>> The level of development isn't the issue, and doesn't change the water
>> "count". Someone with this kind of chart is going to have experiences,
>> or at least challenges, associated with the water element (and the
>> others previously mentioned), whether they are satisfying or not.
>
>Not necessarily, this person could function only with the elements
>listed in balance and the overcompensation not noticed. The BTK killer
>was thought to be a "nice" dog catcher.
You appear to be ignoring the idea of projection- how we externalize
aspects of self we don't want to face. This chart is a strong
candidate for that.
>> >> >There is however a method by which we can determine the BASIS for the
>> >> >probabilities, and the more "scientifically" and organized and
>> >> >psychologically feasible that is, the more likely we are to be
>> >> >accurate with the clear primary identity status
>> >
>> >> The assumption being that the 'clear primary identity status' is from
>> >> the elemental table?
>> >
>> >No, the Elements count BEGINS the analysis of that identity. It is
>> >then built upon with other delineation. I have outlined this many
>> >times:
>
>>http://groups.google.com/group/sci.astrology.psychology/msg/cc21f77ee9d86faa?hl=en
>
>> Then it sounds like you don't use "other delineation", if you are
>> calling this chart low in water.
>
>The Neptune square does not alter this deduction, it ADDS to it. It
>makes it MORE significant, and when you build upon the delineation using
>the method I outlined it will lead you to the opening questions or
>statements to get to the heart of the consultation when the client
>arrives. The FEEDBACK from the client then tells you of thier MANAGEMENT
>of the work you did in the delineation steps.
The first thing I'm going to question is how the client is dealing
with emotional and/or empathic experiences. The Neptune square is the
centerpiece of this chart and will probably reflect the main
challenges and opportunities in this person's life.
>> >> >and therefore more
>> >> >able to focus on the clients needs (and future) during the
>> >> >consultation rather than making it a challenge to see if we are gonna
>> >> >get it "right." Because that is not 100% possible anyway and that is a
>> >> >waste of ego exercise.
>> >> >All I am trying to point out is that this person (by simply counting
>> >> >Elements) will be focused on the Aquarian idea of structured ideology
>> >> >(like a hippie) in an airy way to promote some "new or freer" way of
>> >> >thinking, and will be MISSING simple compassion or intuited empathy
>> >
>> >> Any decent astrology book about, say, Neptune square the Moon, would
>> >> say just about exactly the opposite.
>
>> >Hopefully, it would state that this idea is in DEVELOPMENT, not that
>> >it is indicative of a watery person, which would be incorrect.
>
>> The person will deal with water- emotional- experiences, either
>> directly in their own body or by projection through others. Less
>
>Define "emotional" experiences?
Guidance, decision-making, or seeking out of events focused on the
feeling part of self.
>> conscious people do tend to project unresolved issues this way, to a
>> greater or lesser degree. But the so-called 'source' of those
>> experiences doesn't matter- the person is guided to or 'forced' into
>> emotional experiences.
>
>No one can be forced into anything, they create their experiences by the
>beliefs they hold which they interject into the "props" of events and
>give their meanings that way, the chart is helping us understand what
>those meanings are they are giving the "props". Because nothing has
>built in meaning, emotionally or otherwise.
Of course it doesn't, but how many people do you know who don't
express and experience the fundamental planetary significators of
their chart?
'Forced' is what projection looks like sometimes- when a person, say,
walks into their office and every person but them is angry. Good
chance the person doesn't want to own their own upset, and will feel
forced into relating to an office full of cranky people.
>> Water is in their chart, so emotional experiences are in their life,
>
>I did not say anything about emotional experiences. The water element
>allows us to understand others from an empathic sensitivity. Aquarius is
>the opposite of Leo, social accolade is more importqant to them for
>their intellect, not empathic support of others--unless it is in a
>humanitarian mode (like Obama and the Haiti thing now Aquarius rising)
>but he is standing in front of others cheerleading to do a "social
>thing" he is not there in a tent as an unknown supporting the head of a
>person.
Not sure how this applies. I'm not questioning the typical
interpretations of Aquarius or Leo.
I certainly agree with that.
>but remember, we don't choose life charts to live out a
>whole life of learning with and then resolve it in a flash and do
>nothing. There will be levels of development, but the Water element and
>its distrust will be a lifelong issue.
Which does not sound to me like a chart low in water.
>> >> houses, modes, elements, etc- is just style, filters, and situations-
>> >> how and where things get done.
>> >
>> >That is a rather simpleton kind of perspective on it. So the fact that
>> >Adolf Hitler had 0 Water means it just wasn't his style to be
>> >empathic?
>
>> It certainly fits, but I wouldn't say empathy requires the water
>> element.
>
>Water IS the empathy element. Empathic, like Darryl Anka, the guy who
>channels Bashar: Sun conjunct Neptune in Libra, Moon in Pisces. A strong
>water WITH Neptune. Empathic.
Sure. But I'm saying a person can learn empathy even if the
traditional significators aren't prominent in their chart.
>> >> So I'd guess the person in question thinks they think- that they 'see'
>> >> their thoughts as what guides and motivates them- but that the
>> >> conscious and/or unconscious emotional and/or intuitive aspects of
>> >> their personality drive their choices and perspectives, sometimes more
>> >> than they realize.
>> >
>> >That is a general statement that could apply to anyone. Their needs
>> >are for Intellectual social fulfillment, not for empathic issues. That
>> >is why Neptune NEEDS developing.
>
>> Right. And when someone suppresses or resists basic needs like this,
>> these needs have a habit of forcing their way into one's life.
>
>The low water means they ARE repressing it because they don't believe in
>it. But you are underestimating its importance for the LIFE of a person.
Not in my own mind. I can't tell how my words are being interpreted,
however.
Edmond H. Wollmann
>
> I quoted/wrote:
> > > So the structuring of a social sign is watery? I am trying to
> > > understand what you are saying. Please don't take offense.
> >
>
> Sorry, what I had actually wanted to quote for my reply below was
> this:
> > > Just so I am clear, you are saying Aquarius is more "watery" than Leo
> > > because it is closer to Pisces?
>
>
> )o+
>
> > No the idea in my model is that different star signs are stages in a
> > transition between the 4 elements in the cycle that Aristotle proposed
> > (fire<->air<->water<->earth<->fire<->...). For air signs, the
> > transition is fire-air-water in the model. In the model, Gemini is
> > mostly fire (quick, random, learning), Aquarius is most water
> > (constant like rain, teaching), Libra is in between, balancing fire
> > and water.
Yes, I have the progression of the evolution of the Zodiac in my book
and agree with it, but that is a collective discernment and has little
to do with the Element count used in analysis.
> > See this thread for more details:
> >
> > http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.moderated/browse_thread/...
> >
> > Personally I think there is something to the model. I come originally
> > from Liz Greene's descriptions of the star signs in The Astrology of
> > Fate and other works by her, i.e. originally heavily influenced by the
> > mythology and, I guess indirectly, ideas by Jung.
> >
> > I don't think my model really speaks against your approach of
> > "counting elements", which I think as an approach is genuinely "more
> > equal" than anything else I know, but my model might relativate it a
> > little bit as a secondary effect (i.e. something that comes after
> > counting elements in my view). Aquarius remains mainly an air sign,
> > the empathy is sort of "emulated" or at most learned in life, but not
> > felt as immediately and deeply as a water sign could, even though I
> > think Aquarius has a fair chance to learn to get quite close.
Well rarely do we find a complete lack of an element, but when we do it
is clearly manifested in behavior.
> > At any rate, just as I want my house doctor to look at certain things
> > when I visit him/her, I would certainly welcome my "house astrologer"
> > to count elements/characters first and then start to look at more.
As I explain in my book, it must start this way and then is compiled
into a persona, without which we cannot hope to predict anything.
We usually find the SAME message throughout the chart, and counting
elements is the best way to get on that trail so to speak.
> > I can see some indirect advantages to an almost "aspects only" apprach
> > as Ken/CFA proposed: Eliminates critisism related to precession (signs
> > don't count) or sun sign astrology ("I know two guys who are both
> > Virgo and they could not be more different persons"), and maybe -
> > since Richard Nolle also once said something into this direction here
> > - maybe an "aspects only" approach might be easiest for proving parts
> > of astrology in scientific experiments - or maybe not, but at least in
> > that sense, I could understand why someone would *focus* on them.
> >
> > Sorry, I have a habit of cramming lots of ideas into posts...
> >
> > )o+
There is a large focus on them, AFTER the element count, hemisphere
emphasis, and MODE count which we haven't even gotten to yet.
Thanks
--
Edmond H. Wollmann
>
> On Jan 22, 10:41 am, "Edmond H. Wollmann" <arcturian...@earthlink.net>
>
> If you find the leisure sometime, I can still recommend to take a look
> at my model of the 12 star signs in terms of transformation between
> the elements. Certainly, I agree, my model comes *after* counting
> elements and modes/characters when looking at a chart or likely even
> just when considering a single one of the 12 star signs, but if you
> look at my model more closely, it goes beyond a progression of the
> three star signs per element, in the sense "gemini-young, libra-adult,
> aquarius-old", which is I guess what you meant with "I have the
> progression of the evolution of the Zodiac in my book"*, while I do
> associate that progression also with a transformation between
> elements, at least in the sense, that Gemini comes relatively closely
> from fire and Aquarius is already quite close to water, even though I
> would also, as you say, still count, say, Aquarius fully for the
> element air in the element count. Actually this became only clear to
> me in the course of this thread, so thanks everybody for posting. I
> also agree that usually the same themes can be found in several "
> places" or from several points of view in a chart. The strongest point
> of my model, in my view, is that it fits so well with a lot of the
> mythology that is usually associated with the star signs - likely
> because a myth usually describes a story, going from somewhere to
> elsewhere, which is a priori not incompatible with a transformation
> between elements. In that sense, I consider my model more canonical or
> "more equal" than the myths associated with them, although in other
> ways, of course, mythology remains very likely unparalleled...
>
> (* Or did you mean that you already associate Gemini-Libra-Aquarius
> with a transformation fire-air-water?)
>
> )o+
No, I meant I see the entire Zodiac as a "Grand Man" as the old texts
state and that as we move through the signs we advance in consciousness
and externalization of the self--or the expression of the persona in
physical reality as it becomes manifested.
I see what you are saying, I will have to mull it over for a bit:-)
--
Edmond H. Wollmann P.M.A.F.A.
� 2010 Altair Publications, SAN 299-5603
Astrological Consulting http://www.astroconsulting.com/
Youtube http://www.youtube.com/user/EHWollmann
Twitter http://twitter.com/Altairtheflyer
Edmond H. Wollmann
> On Jan 22, 10:41 am, "Edmond H. Wollmann" <arcturian...@earthlink.net>
I just wanted to add that in my writings I may get a little more
metaphysical or speculative. But when delineating a chart for a client
I am much stricter and psychologically oriented. These ideas are good
to muse over, but they have little application in my experiences with
clients, who usually have life issues and pragmatic realities to deal
with that manifest in behaviors or experiences we wish to redefine.
Your idea kind of reminds me of the decanate idea with elelments, so
it does seem as if there is validity to it.
Thanks!
Edmond H. Wollmann P.M.A.F.A.
� 2010 Altair Publications, SAN 299-5603
Astrological Consulting http://www.astroconsulting.com/
pedantus
> On Dec 31, 2:00 am, pedantus <pedan...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Dec 30, 10:51 am, Hermes <astalde...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > I met Alois Treindl (founder of astro,com) once in early 2005,
> > > actually at the day when there was an exact opposition of
> > > t.Neptune (in Aquarius) to my natal sun, and at the occasion
> > > he also took a quick look at my birth chart and, as far as I
> > > remember, he mentioned the imbalance between elements
> > > first (4 trad. planets in water, 3 in fire, no trad. planets in air
> > > or earth, ura-plu is in virgo, nep in sco). When I interjected
> > > that, hey Uranus and Pluto in earth he just mentioned that
> > > those are collective planets.
>
> > > That was apparenty his initial approach to a chart, at least
> > > in my case. Cannot judge it much rationally and my feelings
> > > are a bit mixed, maybe like this: If you somehow strive for a
> > > single best way of looking initially at a chart that gives best
> > > results averaged over all charts that you might ever look at
> > > (a bit like if you devise computer analyses like Alois does, and
> > > certainly very well, or when you make a scientific hypothesis
> > > of "the" way it is), then I think the elementary analysis might
> > > be the best approach and also be a good one in many
> > > situations. Seems to me maybe on the axis Aqu-Leo ?
> > > (I devised my elementary model of the star signs in 2001
> > > when the sun was in Aquarius, and am a Leo).
>
> > > The other approach here would likely be to look at each chart
> > > in its own right, like if it was a living individual (often it is!)
> > > who
> > > deserves a dedicated specialized look (art) that even adapts
> > > methods to some degree to the chart at hand (often indirectly
> > > by visiting the "right" astrologer). Deep orcheesy? Both?
>
> > > )o+
> > > --http://www.google.com/profiles/alain.stalder.chhttp://www.exactphilos...
>
> > 锟絀t comes down to the needs of the "astrologer" ; but I think the need
> > to be definitively correct--in control of how other's are to be
> > defined, is quite "cheesy" , as you put it...: ) 锟絋he fact that we can
> > know almost nothing about this Universe; in its essence, nothing but
> > our own artfully created relative terms, should at some point release
> > the ego from having to be god-like in its desire for apparent
> > infallibility....: ) Perhaps knowledge should indeed set one free, and
> > not chain the soul to an endless series of ego-sustaining parlor
> > tricks...always a rabbit appears from the hat on cue...: ) 锟絋he truth
> > of the matter is, one cannot sell or trade experiences which do not
> > promise to "empower" someone; thus, it is onlyPowerthat is
> > ostensibly offered to the consumer of promises, and not a more soul-
> > enhancing understanding of our collective ignorance...: |
>
> > 锟絋hink of the Trinity of: House 2, -House 6, -House 10, in the
> > abstract. See here how Personal Increase(H2) is tied to Service (H6)
> > by way of GoverningPower(H10). 锟絋his psychical "molecule" of three
> > parts does not exist if one part is removed, and any one part is so
> > like the other two when they operate in unison, as a kind of
> > "molecule" of human motivation, 锟絫hat the confusion of Service with
> > the exercise ofPowerends up being defined as thePowerof Money, or
> > the Service ofPower. 锟絊o tempting it its for the ego to say; " *I*
> > have thePowerto Serve!" 锟紿ere we have conjured House 10 plus 锟紿ouse
> > 6; but what is in the soul's House 2, of Personal Increase--what
> > spiritual equivalent of Money is here the third atomic member of this
> > "molecule" of human motivation? 锟絆nly the Soul has the potential for
> > the kind of Personal Increase needed to bond the abstract 锟絫rinity--
> > <H2-H6-H10>.
>
> >Poweris "cheesy" : the Self is "deep". Service may be nearly
> > impossible due to the soul's complete lack of understanding of the
> > essentials we pretend to control/manipulate by way of our ego-serving
> > definitions.
>
> > Pedantus Pontificus...: )
>
> Thanks a lot! :)
>
> (Would it be too bold to claim that a good part of what can
> make the magic of a relation compared to an individual being
> is, beyond obviously the relative aspects in synastry, the fact
> that usually planets are in different houses in synastry for both?)
>
> )o+
Hi,
Just bumped into an example of the way we intuitively come to,
visually, graphically, express the relationship between Houses II, VI,
X. I thought this was a good followup on the comments concerning this
trinity of houses as described above. I think the dynamics of the
psyche's expression are evidence in the art-related urge to address
our internal experience of house divisions as "spiritual" geometry.
2-6-10 Money-Service-Power:
http://www.newagepower.net/images/logo.JPG
http://www.newagepower.net/reading.html
One has to wonder if the "author" of this graphic was actually
conscious of the amount of "horoscopic" expressionism lie at the
creative root urge of the imagery.
Oh, BTW, I still think any such appeal to, or offering of, Power is
"Cheesy"...: )
Rog
Edmond H. Wollmann
> > > to be definitively correct--in control of how other's are to be
> > > know almost nothing about this Universe; in its essence, nothing but
> > > our own artfully created relative terms, should at some point release
> > > the ego from having to be god-like in its desire for apparent
> > > infallibility....: ) Perhaps knowledge should indeed set one free, and
> > > not chain the soul to an endless series of ego-sustaining parlor
> > > of the matter is, one cannot sell or trade experiences which do not
> > > promise to "empower" someone; thus, it is onlyPowerthat is
> > > ostensibly offered to the consumer of promises, and not a more soul-
> > > enhancing understanding of our collective ignorance...: |
>
> > > abstract. See here how Personal Increase(H2) is tied to Service (H6)
> > > parts does not exist if one part is removed, and any one part is so
> > > like the other two when they operate in unison, as a kind of
> > > the exercise ofPowerends up being defined as thePowerof Money, or
> > > have thePowerto Serve!" �Here we have conjured House 10 plus �House
> > > 6; but what is in the soul's House 2, of Personal Increase--what
> > > spiritual equivalent of Money is here the third atomic member of this
> > > the kind of Personal Increase needed to bond the abstract �trinity--
> > > <H2-H6-H10>.
>
> > >Poweris "cheesy" : the Self is "deep". Service may be nearly
> > > impossible due to the soul's complete lack of understanding of the
> > > essentials we pretend to control/manipulate by way of our ego-serving
> > > definitions.
>
> > > Pedantus Pontificus...: )
>
> > Thanks a lot! :)
>
> > (Would it be too bold to claim that a good part of what can
> > make the magic of a relation compared to an individual being
> > is, beyond obviously the relative aspects in synastry, the fact
> > that usually planets are in different houses in synastry for both?)
>
> > )o+
>
> Hi,
> visually, graphically, express the relationship between Houses II, VI,
> trinity of houses as described above. I think the dynamics of the
> psyche's expression are evidence in the art-related urge to address
> our internal experience of house divisions as "spiritual" geometry.
>
> http://www.newagepower.net/images/logo.JPGhttp://www.newagepower.net/reading.html
>
> � One has to wonder if the "author" of this graphic was actually
> conscious of the amount of "horoscopic" expressionism lie at the
> creative root urge of the imagery.
>
> "Cheesy"...: )
>
> Rog- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
I believe supplanting "pictures that look like charts" is a measure of
incompetance.
I believe it is irresponsible astrology to say �it looks like so and
so�s chart� or it has the energy of this famous person or what have
you. This person, like all persons is unique and has their own
psychological developmental pattern and incorporation of the
astrological chart that they have. Their chart reflects the
arrangement of archetypes inherent as probabilities in their
development, and the probable psychological issues they will confront
or manifest within the life they have chosen to express. They cannot
be like so and so, or their chart repeat energy by another person who
has some similar placements because they are unique as I said. This
disempowers both astrology and the subject under examination.
Now, using my book and the way I approach interpreting a chart you can
see that this chart (I posted it with my scribbles on it here:
http://www.astroconsulting.com/FAQs/chart_display.htm ) has 1 Fire, 2
Earth, 10 Air points and 1 Water. The mode count is more revealing; 0
Cardinal, 11 Fixed, and 2 Mutable. Now when I prepare for clients this
method allows me to get the gist of the overall thrust of the persona,
in this case it is like a an Aquarian (High Fixed Air) and is least
like an Aries (Cardinal Fire) a Cancer (Cardinal Water) and followed
by Cardinal Earth or Capricorn.
Let�s look at the interps for these concepts:
Most of us who study astrology know that Aquarians are some of the
biggest procrastinators. Here we have ZERO Cardinal points: When there
is a preponderance of the Cardinal quadruplicity of belief Mode there
is an exaggerated emphasis on action and leadership to defend against
the perceived threat of identity invalidity and status concerns. When
they are low or lacking there is a lack of recognition that action
reflects belief conviction.� In This case there would be profound
disbelief in taking action or that activity and application of the
self would be valued.
High Air: When excessive there is a preoccupation with the self and
its perspectives. (this would reinforce the procrastination)
Low Fire: When lacking or low (1 point or less) a mistrust of the self
and its creative birthright.
Low Earth: When it is low or lacking there is the fear or belief that
material things are base or dangerous.
Low Water: When low or lacking there is a difficulty or a lack of
trust in the idea that others are reflective in service. Things are
taken extremely personally. There is a fear of not being emotionally
discerned, while others emotions are not considered.
Now, let�s look at the hemisphere emphasis: 7 points west (the army is
gathered to protect the 7th) indicates a need to be socially accepted
above being ego important or self-defined. (this corroborates our
initial finding of 0 Cardinal, no action for self, dependent upon the
acceptance of others). So, social receptivity would be more important
than self development. The planets on the Eastern horizon are all Rx
indicating a reserved or reticence about the self and ego. 2 points
above the horizon shows less objectivity and more below the horizon
shows a need to reflect internally before outward expression.
The Sun Moon blend states: � Sun in Aquarius, Moon Aquarius The
objectified creator. The scientist. Innovation is the key to personal
fulfillment, as well as the sharing of these innovations socially.
Now, we find them in the middle of the other planets in 5, creative
extension. So this person�s focus would be on the innovative with
regard to self expression and was strongly influenced by the parental
structure. The parents did not allow this person (in their mind) to
express this avant garde need, although the mother would have had a
profound effect on this issue and either was preoccupied with it as a
form of her own self worth (moon in 5 conjunct the nodal axis, Jupiter
ruling 4) or perhaps was in fear of it (south node and reinforced by
Uranus in 12 disposing of all the Aquarian planets) or, the identity
of which we speak is obsessed with this individuality idea because of
the lack of knowledge about the parents (adopted or in some other way
abandoned by parents). Either way the Uranus at 29 degrees and Rx
indicates that this issue has been ignored for far too long and must
be resolved (urgency is shown by the 29th degree). Mercury also rules
the 10th and ascendant and is Rx, more introspection about the idea we
are discussing and it diposes of the Pluto also in 12, the only
practical application or the Aquarian issue (introspection and self
undoing).
NOW, we might come to the aspect pattern by introducing Neptune�s
square to the Aquarius planets, which would indicate a sacrifice or
dissolution �spiritually� to others (ruling 7) which may be an escape
mechanism from ever clearly defining the self in more pragmatic terms.
The square indicates a worth/love or extension developmental need,
meaning that this person must cultivate or apply the spiritual aspect
or resources to unraveling this conflict about how �unique� they are;
hence this could TRANSLATE into a career or need to express the self
through the arts and perhaps music, or some �new age� application of
the �scientific� needs to those topics. But never-the-less, this
person still has an unbalanced and over compensatory reliance upon the
structured and �scientific� or innovative application of the self at
the cost of the natural, spontaneous (Fire) and pragmatic and
practical applications of the self, and because of their being caught
up in this Air ideology have sacrificed and do not fully participate
in the elements and modes lacking in the chart, especially, activity,
action and self-directed expression (Leo Uranus Rx, 0 Cardinal). The
objectivity may paralyze the creative needs of the 5th, and giving
love may be the casualty.
There are no oppositions in the chart, so awareness of this issue
itself may be difficult to bring to the surface for the client and
indicates this person is bound up by their own perspectives.
Now this is a VERY abbreviated example of the process which the real
astrologer must learn to build if they are ever to serve a client
realistically, and all this �your chart is like this painting and that
persons chart and this idea and that�, really does not serve the
client or the astrologer well and is frankly a cop-out for not having
the skills necessary to develop a true understanding (Water) of the
person who�s chart we seek to comprehend.
Thank you for allowing me to share my ideas with you.
It is always the same: once you are liberated, you are forced to ask
who you are.
Jean Baudrillard
Edmond H. Wollmann P.M.A.F.A.
� 2010 Altair Publications, SAN 299-5603
Edmond H. Wollmann
> On Feb 8, 3:20 am, "Edmond H. Wollmann" <arcturian...@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
> > I believe supplanting "pictures that look like charts" is a measure of
> > incompetance.
>
> works (too little personal experience with it), but at least in this
> example between Liz Greene's birth chart and her cover illustration
> for her book "The Astrology of Fate" it looks convincing to me:
>
> �ｿｽhttp://lh5.ggpht.com/_M_Yn4lKv3Dw/S2_gD_wGZrI/AAAAAAAAAY4/x7TpXvayEIg...
>
> I brought this up about two years ago here, as an application of my
> limited perception of what Pedantus does with such things.
>
> Here is a link to a post from Pedantus from then, plus a link to a
> similar superposition image by Pedantus with some comments by him:
>
> �ｿｽhttp://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.moderated/msg/21d6888aec...
> �ｿｽhttp://pedantus.free.fr/LizGreene_01a2.gif
>
> The cover illustration is by Liz Greene herself, as it says inside the
> cover of the book. (Liz Greene also stated that she used to paint when
> she was young, in a Mountain Astrologer interview a few years ago.)
>
> A main focus is arguably on the shears that Atropos, the oldest of the
> Fates, is holding, symbolizing the claws of Scorpio before apparently
> Scorpio was split ("cut" like with shears) into two star signs
> sometime around the second century BC (at least according to Liz
> Greene's own account in the same book). Besides her birth chart, there
> was also a Sat-Plu conjunction near that "cutting point" near the end
> of Libra around 1983 when she likely made the illustration and wrote
> the book (published in 1984). Also her progressed sun was around there
> at the time. The cave in the drawing and the sun (light) there can be
> seen to mirror the glyph of Leo, and the trees in the landscape
> outside can be seen to mirror the planets mercury-sun and saturn-
> pluto. Most of the other planets are on the faces of the Fates; the IC
> and part of fortune are in Pisces which is fittingly occupied by one
> foot of the middle Fate (the one that measures). And I think more
> could be seen. I would say the thread stands also for the nodal axis,
> is just bent a little out of way of the inner birth chart shown.
>
> Of course, with Liz Greene being an astrologer, maybe she unconciously
> (or even consciously) could have crafted the drawing to reflect her
> chart.
>
> )o+
Well, yes, I am not saying that a person may not express some of their
chart in artwork, I am saying nothing can supplant diligent organized
analysis FIRST. But using the artwork in reverse and saying the art
shows this and that about the chart is definately silly and
unreliable. This concept might be better employed as an afterthought
or in support of, not unlike asteroids are. But asteroids are aslo in
this category, and if you ever notice people go off on giant analyses
based on some insignificant asteroid without some serious analysis
using the major processes in delineating a chart, it just cannot be
sound, that is all I am saying. And it is very easy, especially in
astrology, to go off on a tangent in reading things, only to find--for
example--that you have the wrong time or something. A word to the wise
is sufficient. People do this in research as well, at SDSU students
would tend to go off on hypotheses about some data that one could not
possibly have gotten just from the data. Remember when eggs were
thought to be bad for us??
This is why having an outline of the psychological thrust of the
person is the best way to approach it before consultation, because you
can let the client tell you what they have or have not done with the
chart as we see it.
I can't (and no one can) really know what the 100% Aquarian person has
chosen to take the chart they have and develop it. We can only see
probabilities and guage how those probabilities have panned out, by
hearing what the person says about what we present. We then adjust our
perceptions and recognition of the path they chose and do our best to
support that choice with hopefully greater awareness for them to aid
and assist.
I hope I said this clear enough with sounding too curt.
Thanks!
Edmond H. Wollmann P.M.A.F.A.
�ｿｽ 2010 Altair Publications, SAN 299-5603
The True Edmond Wollmann
> On Feb 9, 1:57 am, "Edmond H. Wollmann" <arcturian...@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 8, 2:21 pm, Hermes <astalde...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Feb 8, 3:20 am, "Edmond H. Wollmann" <arcturian...@earthlink.net>
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > I believe supplanting "pictures that look like charts" is a measure of
> > > > incompetance.
>
> > > I am not sure if the "art-chart" correspondence always or even often
> > > works (too little personal experience with it), but at least in this
> > > example between Liz Greene's birth chart and her cover illustration
> > > for her book "The Astrology of Fate" it looks convincing to me:
>
>
> > > I brought this up about two years ago here, as an application of my
> > > limited perception of what Pedantus does with such things.
>
> > > Here is a link to a post from Pedantus from then, plus a link to a
> > > similar superposition image by Pedantus with some comments by him:
>
> > > �http://pedantus.free.fr/LizGreene_01a2.gif
> > Astrological Consultinghttp://www.astroconsulting.com/
> > Youtubehttp://www.youtube.com/user/EHWollmann
> > Twitterhttp://twitter.com/Altairtheflyer
>
> has moved from Aquarius into Pisces, which I would interpret as less
> of a "one size fits all" approach to reading a chart, to not
> necessarily proceeding rationally/analytically or striving for more
> consciousness in client or astrologer. As far as I know Liz Greene,
> for example, despite being an astrologer, she is probably the last
> person on earth who would like to know anything about herself, at
> least in my perception, even though she did certainly study it using
> astrology and even do genealogical research from an astrological
> perspective. More conscious knowledge often has the effect of only
> hardening things that are unconscious, making them more and more
> inaccessible (and thus maybe even more a problem than they would have
> been if left undisturbed). I know all of this does not really
> contradict what you wrote, at least from the perspective you put it,
> which is certainly very useful for reading charts.
>
> Fixed URL for superposition of Liz Greene's chart and illustration:http://lh5.ggpht.com/_M_Yn4lKv3Dw/S2_gD_wGZrI/AAAAAAAAAY4/x7TpXvayEIg...
>
> I guess I have to conclude that I am not 100% Aquarian...
>
> )o+- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
I would say only one more thing. In consultation the client does not
know I have done all this work, and a simple statement like "It
appears to me that you have a very strong need to be unique, perhaps
especially having to do with artistic creations or how you give love
and express yourself to others. You may havce some self-worth issues
in relationships seeking the ideal... This would appear to have been
from some very strong influence from your mother and perhaps the way
she nurtured you...a very important time frame that might give us some
insight into this idea would have been around November of
1975...around age 14..."
Now, the final comment to the readers is this: The client or person
who's chart we are reading may indeed themselves NOT be aware of the
imbalance or whatever psychological issue we discover by the methods I
employ, and so part of the consultation would be to try to bring that
into awareness if possible so that the person can understand the
beliefs, and therefore understand how they create what they create.
Because we cannot change that which we do not own.
Thank you again for allowing me to share my approach with all of you.
Edmond H. Wollmann P.M.A.F.A.
� 2010 Altair Publications, SAN 299-5603
Edmond H. Wollmann
> On Feb 9, 6:46 pm, The True Edmond Wollmann <EHWollm...@aol.com>
> client. Maybe I would not agree in all possible interpretations of
> your sentences above, but I am quite confident that I agree with them
> in the sense you meant them. Took me some minutes to think into it,
> but then (as usual in this thread) I had to concede that you are
> right. Thanks also to all the other posters who - like myself - could
> not convince me in the end so much. I guess you all were certainly
> right in many points, too, just not as broadly and universally and
> centrally right as Ed, at least in my limited perception... :)
>
> In any case, this has in my feeling become a very interesting and
> beautiful thread.
>
> Quote from Chinese Taoist philosopher Chuang Tzu:
>
> * Chuangtse and Hueitse had strolled on to the bridge over the Hao,
> * when the former observed, "See how the small fish are �darting
> * about! That is the happiness of the fish."
> *
> * "You not being a fish yourself," said Huei, "how can you know the
> * happiness of the fish?"
> *
> * "And you not being I," retorted Chuangtse, "how can you know
> * that I do not know?"
> *
> * "If I, not being you, cannot know what you know," urged Huei,
> * "it follows that you, not being a fish, cannot know the happiness
> * of the fish."
> *
> * "Let us go back to your original question," said Chuangtse.
> * "You asked me how I knew the happiness of the fish. Your very
> * question shows that you knew that I knew. I knew it from my own
> * feelings on this bridge."
> -- Source:http://reader.homestead.com/chuangtse.html
>
> Thanks everybody again,
>
> )o+
Excellent! And of course what I was saying was ONLY tidbits of what
might come about in the consultation. You probably would not be
surprised to know, that some clients are very angry with me at first--
or may go home angry and listen to the tape and call me and say, "You
know, sometimes I felt like you were attacking me, but I see you were
really just hanging in there in the hope I would see, thank you."
To those who think I am an unfeeling bully who doesn't see when
someone is hurting I say:
"You are inventing all sorts of feelings for me such as I have never
really had at all, and then getting cross with me for having them.
That is not a very amiable proceeding, is it?" Murasaki Shikaba,
Japanese
Poet, (974-1031)
pedantus
> On Feb 8, 3:20 am, "Edmond H. Wollmann" <arcturian...@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
> > incompetance.
>
> works (too little personal experience with it), but at least in this
> example between Liz Greene's birth chart and her cover illustration
> for her book "The Astrology of Fate" it looks convincing to me:
>
>
> I brought this up about two years ago here, as an application of my
> limited perception of what Pedantus does with such things.
>
> Here is a link to a post from Pedantus from then, plus a link to a
> similar superposition image by Pedantus with some comments by him:
>
> 锟絟ttp://pedantus.free.fr/LizGreene_01a2.gif
>
> The cover illustration is by Liz Greene herself, as it says inside the
> cover of the book. (Liz Greene also stated that she used to paint when
> she was young, in a Mountain Astrologer interview a few years ago.)
>
> A main focus is arguably on the shears that Atropos, the oldest of the
> Fates, is holding, symbolizing the claws of Scorpio before apparently
> Scorpio was split ("cut" like with shears) into two star signs
> sometime around the second century BC (at least according to Liz
> Greene's own account in the same book). Besides her birth chart, there
> was also a Sat-Plu conjunction near that "cutting point" near the end
> of Libra around 1983 when she likely made the illustration and wrote
> the book (published in 1984). Also her progressed sun was around there
> at the time. The cave in the drawing and the sun (light) there can be
> seen to mirror the glyph of Leo, and the trees in the landscape
> outside can be seen to mirror the planets mercury-sun and saturn-
> pluto. Most of the other planets are on the faces of the Fates; the IC
> and part of fortune are in Pisces which is fittingly occupied by one
> foot of the middle Fate (the one that measures). And I think more
> could be seen. I would say the thread stands also for the nodal axis,
> is just bent a little out of way of the inner birth chart shown.
>
> Of course, with Liz Greene being an astrologer, maybe she unconciously
> (or even consciously) could have crafted the drawing to reflect her
> chart.
>
> )o+
You got it , Hermes....: )
Just think about how any drawing is always largely about the act of
"drawing," and our human psychological need to draw. The same deep
roots of the psyche are involved in both acts of drawing--in both
astrology and graphic arts, I mean. The natal chart is but an evolved
drawing which uses consciously arranged intellectual data as an
inspiration to create what is a partially abstract drawing/chart. (it
is not a map--not a two dimensional physically correct model; its a
down and dirty interpretation of a geocentric perspective from a gods-
eye point of view above the North pole. This element of abstraction
allows the psyche to unconsciously project its collective perspective
concerning our symbolisms for spiritual geometry--an attempt to catch
the image of what it feels like to be human--a map of the psyche is
thus superimposed upon the astronomical data. We are always projecting
our autobiographically formed philosophy/beliefs and our abstract Self
image. What could be more like each other in spirit than one's natal
chart and one's abstract self-portrait. What Liz Greene did on the
cover you cite, essentially, was to succeed at the spiritual task of
performing unconsciously projected abstract self portraiture...:)
This is what we do when we are actually engaged in Self
expression....:) If we don't do it, we don't get to be here as a well
defined, more or less unique, human being. Behind the Ego and all its
occasional false self afflictions, there lies a pattern of more unique
Identity upon which even the Ego relies for its existence...: )
Rog
pedantus
> On Feb 11, 6:52 am, pedantus <pedan...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > �You got it , Hermes....: )
>
> > �Just think about how any drawing is always largely about the act of
> > "drawing," and our human psychological need to draw. The same deep
> > roots of the psyche are involved in both acts of drawing--in both
> > astrology and graphic arts, I mean. �The natal chart is but an evolved
> > drawing which uses consciously arranged intellectual data as an
> > inspiration to create what is a partially abstract drawing/chart. (it
> > is not a map--not a two dimensional physically correct model; its a
> > down and dirty interpretation of a geocentric perspective from a gods-
> > eye point of view above the North pole. This element of abstraction
> > allows the psyche to unconsciously project its collective perspective
> > concerning our symbolisms for spiritual geometry--an attempt to catch
> > the image of what it feels like to be human--a map of the psyche is
> > thus superimposed upon the astronomical data. We are always projecting
> > our autobiographically formed philosophy/beliefs and our abstract Self
> > image. What could be more like each other in spirit than one's natal
> > chart and one's abstract self-portrait. �What Liz Greene did on the
> > cover you cite, essentially, was to succeed at the spiritual task of
> > performing unconsciously projected abstract self portraiture...:)
> > This is what we do when we are actually �engaged in Self
> > expression....:) If we don't do it, we don't get to be here as a well
> > defined, more or less unique, human being. �Behind the Ego and all its
> > occasional false self afflictions, there lies a pattern of more unique
> > Identity upon which even the Ego relies for its existence...: �)
>
> > Rog
>
>
> Especially the idea that a horoscope drawing can be viewed as a
> "geocentric perspective from a gods-eye point of view above the North
> pole" is something that had never occurred to me. I think I found two
> interesting "large scale" applications of that "god's view", expressed
> not by an individual, but by a whole country/culture.
>
> Ancient Egypt (Architecture)
>
> The three pyramids in Giza seen from top look very similar to the belt
> of Orion (Osiris), as R. Bauval first proposed:
>
> �http://www.steffen-gries.de/assets/images/abbild5.JPG
>
> A pyramid itself is astrologically maybe even more interesting seen
> from above:
>
> �http://www.virtuescience.com/great-pyramid-top.gif
>
> It looks like a grand square, even the grand cross of oppositions is
> visible.
>
> Edmond Wollmann writes:
>
> * The persona described by Carl Jung is the "Mask" or false face that
> is
> * created psychologically by the oversoul upon incarnation, that
> allows
> * a focused facet of the soul to interact with physicality. This
> persona or
> * ego structure is essentially an artificial construct-- by which--
> through
> * belief (Cardinal signs-identity definition), emotion (Fixed-the
> momentum
> * of energy-motion), and thought (mutable-abstraction and reflection),
> we
> * create our experiential reality and the momentum (karma) therefrom.
> * [image]
> * These three modes (squares) of expression manifest through the four
> * elements (triangles) of definition. This unified universal premise
> is the
> * root structure reflected through;
> *
> * 1) The Great Pyramids (4 TRIANGLES ON SQUARE BASE),
> * [...]
> � -- Pyramids, DNA, and The Elements
> � --http://www.astroconsulting.com/FAQs/pyramids.htm
>
> So the approach to reading a chart based on counting elements and
> characters that Edmond Wollmann presented in this thread is directly
> related to pyramids and consequently also to the Age of Taurus.
>
> In the top view of the pyramid, things look less harmonious than one
> might expect from a sign ruled by Venus, at least the balance is
> fragile and subject to possibly great tensions when some planets
> transit (I personally associate squares with earth, certainly a grand
> cross, symbol of a tree, and oppositions with air, as something more
> abstract). From top, it is also not possible to see into the pyramid,
> into the ground, so some deeper insights (Scorpio) may remain hidden,
> like in the case of pyramids that they were graves.
>
> (Also the overall theme reminds me a bit of the current Saturn in
> Libra square Pluto in Capricorn situation, which would explain why it
> became prominent in this time.)
>
> Example 2: Ancient Greece (Mythology and everything)
>
> Jean Richer's idea that mythological places mirror in a zodiac, at one
> of Edmond Wollmann's sites:
>
> �http://www.astroconsulting.com/FAQs/images/platoo1.jpg
> �http://www.astroconsulting.com/FAQs/platoon.htm
>
> Ancient Greek gods were immortal, but they were all *born* at some
> time and at a _known_ place. So the idea would be to plot where they
> were born onto a map centered in Delphi like the one linked above,
> like a birth chart: Where Zeus was born would be Jupiter, where
> Apollon (and/or Helios) was born would be the sun, and so on... That
> would give a "birth chart" for ancient Greece, its culture, and hence
> for all cultures that followed in its footsteps...
>
> Personally, I prefer the Greek approach, it helped them defend against
> the much stronger and more organized Persians (Iran), which might also
> give a clue how one might defend against their atomic bombs (which
> they arguably likely will soon have) and their rockets to carry them
> (which they already have)...
>
> )o+
>
> --
> Jimi Hendrix live at Woodstock '69, Villanova Junction (i.e. a cross,
> note also close sun-Neptune square*):http://video.google.ch/videoplay?docid=8608497764274521749&ei=3cR1S5r...
> * Mon 18 August 1969, roughly around 10.55 AM or so, seehttp://digitaldreamdoor.nutsie.com/pages/music0_woodstock.html
Hermes,
You are apparently given to the the urge to be everywhere at
once...:) Granted it is hard to talk about astrology without trying to
talk about everything at the same time, but few people will be able to
follow you...:) I think it is important to realize that no matter what
people are discussing, whatever the topic, the goal of the person
expressing himself is to "be there" as he or she actually is; the
topic is just a venue--an outlet for the Self. Astrology is no
different. I'm a Leo with Aires Asc., and my preffered topic is the
Ego and Identity .It is just that simple, we have a "bias" for what
we are attracted to--what will motivate us to express ourselves. So,
*how* we say , what we say, is, or should be, the focus of what an
astrologer "hears". Our task is to seek out individuality in a
cloaking mask of collectively defined images and collectively coined
languages. Astrology is the only discipline which gives an essential
credence to the existence of individual variations on the theme "human
being". All those collective/generic ideas which would, in effect,
erase our individual existence, make us an enigmatic statistical
anomaly, thus silence our particular unique voice in the world, are
covered very well by a host of acceptable academic disciplines. It is
not only our right, but our duty to recognize the simple fact that
persons have an individual nature, which gives rise to an ever
maturing,socially defined, Ego; and, that the persona of "the
astrologer," for instance, is no different from any other persona--the
roles we, as egos, play, by worldly necessity. The Ego is totally
dependent on the underlying individual Identity which gives a
foundation to that essential Ego--our socail vehicle. That we exist as
individuals is the important message of astrology, regardless of which
mythologies may or may not amplify or obscure that simplicity...:) A
grouchy astrologer, for example, has a grouchy natal chart; we
astrologers are here to perceive and explain such things as we can
actually understand....:) Let the deep mysteries be as they are--
beyond comprehension...:)
Rog
~.^.Saba Gracile.^.~
"CFA" <bo...@alt.not> skrev i melding
news:u7ydnXnfnZpUo6DW...@earthlink.com...
> CFA wrote:
>>Edmond H. Wollmann wrote:
>>>> Edmond H. Wollmann wrote:
>>>> >> Edmond H. Wollmann wrote:
>>>> >> >Thanks!
>>>> >> >> Only Neptune is in Water. Low water indicates
>>>>
>>>> >> "Low water" with Neptune square the Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, and
>>>> >> Jupiter?
>>>>
>>>> >> Ken
>>>> >> --
>>>> >> cfa at alt dot net
>>>>
>>>> >psychological overcompensation I just indicated at length. It always
>>>> >works.
>>>> >Art analogies work well:
>>>> >If you are going to paint a paiting in oil for example, and the
>>>> >primary colors will be blue and say red, then the canvas can be
>>>> >painted with those colors overall of it which gives us the "overall
>>>> >coloring" of the idea we will paint, likewise a persons chart has an
>>>> >overall coloring base we might say that gives us the "effect" of the
>>>> >base beliefs--these are shown by the Elements. The planets then become
>>>> >the figures and details painted on that overall effect.
>>>> >And no matter what you color over it, or what planets do what, the
>>>> >base will still be blue/red. And none of the overlay will ever stop
>>>> >that.
>>>>
>>>> I didn't say that. What I said was Neptune squaring four personal
>>>> planets does not indicate a chart low in water.
>>>
>>>I am quite clear on what you said, it simply is irrelevant in
>>>analysis.
>>
>>Then I'd like to suggest you're missing some huge chart cues.
>>
>>>It is like saying a lake that is low on water is not
>>>"really" because there are lots of boats on it. Low water takes things
>>>personally in an attempt to "feel" things, but usually only in selfish
>>>terms and has difficulty empathising with others or really feeling
>>>what they are feeling.
>>
>>And? I've seen that in people with water Sun signs- two with both Sun
>>and Moon in Pisces.
>>
>>Ken
>>--
>>cfa at alt dot net
>>
>> Both of you: Please provide sufficient argumenation instead of minimal
>> bits of counterargument and rhetorical devices.
>
> I'm not disputing what the elemental table says. I don't think it's
> the only indicator of water (or lack thereof) in the chart, though.
>
> My experience is that major planetary aspects are at least as strong
> as sign placements (and of course nothing is canceled out when the
> aspect/s conflict with the signs). There are few more purely emotional
> aspects than a Moon/Venus conjunction square Neptune (aside from some
> kind of Pluto involvement). Neptune, as the ruler of Pisces in my
> world, would certainly seem to emphasize the emotional focus. For the
> classicists, in the chart in question, Jupiter, as the traditional
> ruler of Pisces, is part of the Aquarius stellium.
>
> To call this chart low in the water element is technically correct. To
> call it low in water indications seems like missing some major cues.
>
> Ken
> --
> cfa at alt dot net
>
personality, which makes the individual void of empathy, for example.
More planets in water element is more watery than Neptune aspecting
many planets. Neptune is hard to understand, goes through higher
centres, water is not, they're always down with their watery feelings.
Neptune can in fact avoid any feelings by it's nature.
S
~.^.Saba Gracile.^.~
"don hindenach" <bounc...@driveway.splort> skrev i melding
news:ZGh26eEmFvyP-pn2-qoEU4NOWp7Rw@ddon...
> On Mon, 4 Jan 2010 06:59:11 UTC, CFA <bo...@alt.not> wrote:
>>
>> For me, planets, and especially the hard planetary aspects, are the
>> energy in a chart: they are what move people. Everything else- signs,
>> how and where things get done.
>
> difference is a
> minor one in that I look more to the aspect patterns in toto rather than
> giving
> a bit of extra accent to the hard aspects.
All aspects are clear signs of power in hand, talent or gifts if one can
say that. Hard aspects too, only that calling the squares flowing in any
way is wrong, they don't move the chart but are crossings of conflicts
for the person. So it expresses itself in shutting out, denying or
stonewalling.
These too are crafts or powers in real life. They come off strong and they
are (especially t-square people).
S
>
> Thanks to you for expressing this succinctly, Ken.
>
>> So I'd guess the person in question thinks they think- that they 'see'
>> their thoughts as what guides and motivates them- but that the
>> conscious and/or unconscious emotional and/or intuitive aspects of
>> their personality drive their choices and perspectives, sometimes more
>> than they realize.
>>
>> A less-aware person would probably experience it as a conflict between
>> what their heart says vs what their brain says. A more awake person
>> would just see two different ways of perception, moving toward 'the'
>> vision or intention.
>>
>> Ken
>
>
> --
> -donh-
> donh at audiosys dot com
>
~.^.Saba Gracile.^.~
"~.^.Saba Gracile.^.~" <vero...@frisurf.no> skrev i melding
news:ab6dnT4_IK435x3W...@posted.comnet...
vast things. But its involvement doesn't equal planets being in water signs.
Neptune causes many of the same experiences as the encompassing water
emotions do, such as sorrow, loneliness, romance,empathy(kindness) etc.
So they're not totally unrelated in that respect. But Pluto and mars rules
Scorpio, that never implies that those planets are watery in any way.
S
CFA
>"don hindenach" <bounc...@driveway.splort> skrev i melding
>news:ZGh26eEmFvyP-pn2-qoEU4NOWp7Rw@ddon...
>> On Mon, 4 Jan 2010 06:59:11 UTC, CFA <bo...@alt.not> wrote:
>>>
>>> For me, planets, and especially the hard planetary aspects, are the
>>> energy in a chart: they are what move people. Everything else- signs,
>>> houses, modes, elements, etc- is just style, filters, and situations-
>>> how and where things get done.
>>
>> This is very very close to how I see and read a chart. The only
>> difference is a
>> minor one in that I look more to the aspect patterns in toto rather than
>> giving
>> a bit of extra accent to the hard aspects.
>
>All aspects are clear signs of power in hand, talent or gifts if one can
>say that. Hard aspects too, only that calling the squares flowing in any
>way is wrong, they don't move the chart but are crossings of conflicts
>for the person. So it expresses itself in shutting out, denying or
>stonewalling.
But it expresses. That was the point.
CFA
>"CFA" <bo...@alt.not> skrev i melding
>> I'm not disputing what the elemental table says. I don't think it's
>> the only indicator of water (or lack thereof) in the chart, though.
>>
>> My experience is that major planetary aspects are at least as strong
>> as sign placements (and of course nothing is canceled out when the
>> aspect/s conflict with the signs). There are few more purely emotional
>> aspects than a Moon/Venus conjunction square Neptune (aside from some
>> kind of Pluto involvement). Neptune, as the ruler of Pisces in my
>> world, would certainly seem to emphasize the emotional focus. For the
>> classicists, in the chart in question, Jupiter, as the traditional
>> ruler of Pisces, is part of the Aquarius stellium.
>>
>> To call this chart low in the water element is technically correct. To
>> call it low in water indications seems like missing some major cues.
>>
>> Ken
>> --
>> cfa at alt dot net
>>
>Neptune isn't water.
The two books I checked both use the word "emotional" in connection
with Neptune aspects to the Sun (Sakoian - Astrologers Handbook and
Lofthus - A Spiritual Approach to Astrology). I stopped looking after
that.
>It can be delusionment to the point of scizoid
>personality, which makes the individual void of empathy, for example.
>More planets in water element is more watery than Neptune aspecting
>many planets.
That last sentence has not been my observation. Do you know any people
with a Sun/Neptune conjunction, square, or opposition?
"Void of empathy" appears to be a pretty rare expression of Neptune
aspects.
>Neptune is hard to understand, goes through higher
>centres, water is not, they're always down with their watery feelings.
>Neptune can in fact avoid any feelings by it's nature.
"It's nature" is sensitivity (emotional and otherwise), sometimes
extreme and/or exaggerated. Check your favorite astrology book.
>S
pedantus
Neptune, I suspect, usually refers to an abstraction--something more
approaching a spiritual attribute of some matter--perhaps literally
the spirit of the *stuff* under consideration. Thus, just as the mind
is not the brain (the mind is what the brain *does*); Neptune is not
the ocean. Rather, it is some form of an abstract attribute, such as
what it means, or feels like, to be "all at sea." Unrecognized
music, has no particular aesthetic pull tug on the emotions,
unrecognized sentences pass no ideas or thoughts, whatever, but the
experience of being aware of this state--that apparent randomness is
perhaps suddenly about to coalesce, congeal into a more tangible
perception, may just be what the symbol Neptune is good at
representing in astrology...the enticing "ghost of an idea",
whatever...:) . If some mental experience is about to be created from
the apparent wasteland which remains in the void of some prior, now
completely disintegrated thought, what better sequence than to suspect
Neptune precedes Pluto and the instantaneous mushrooming emergence of
some new foundational perception or thought....recognition plowing out
of a pea soup fog...:)
Rog
~.^.Saba Gracile.^.~
"CFA" <bo...@alt.not> skrev i melding news:3hogam....@news.alt.net...
> ~.^.Saba Gracile.^.~ wrote:
>>"CFA" <bo...@alt.not> skrev i melding
>
>>> I'm not disputing what the elemental table says. I don't think it's
>>> the only indicator of water (or lack thereof) in the chart, though.
>>>
>>> My experience is that major planetary aspects are at least as strong
>>> as sign placements (and of course nothing is canceled out when the
>>> aspect/s conflict with the signs). There are few more purely emotional
>>> aspects than a Moon/Venus conjunction square Neptune (aside from some
>>> kind of Pluto involvement). Neptune, as the ruler of Pisces in my
>>> world, would certainly seem to emphasize the emotional focus. For the
>>> classicists, in the chart in question, Jupiter, as the traditional
>>> ruler of Pisces, is part of the Aquarius stellium.
>>>
>>> To call this chart low in the water element is technically correct. To
>>> call it low in water indications seems like missing some major cues.
>>>
>>> Ken
>>> --
>>> cfa at alt dot net
>>>
>>Neptune isn't water.
>
> The two books I checked both use the word "emotional" in connection
> with Neptune aspects to the Sun (Sakoian - Astrologers Handbook and
> Lofthus - A Spiritual Approach to Astrology). I stopped looking after
> that.
Sensitive, hypersensitive is more likely. But yea I understand
the comparison. Just be aware that Neptune is ultra complex
in that it is avoidant of emotions in certain conditions. It is
dissolving and all encompassing, it is nothing and everything
rolled into one. I can't just automatically put it in the category
of the element water.
>
>>It can be delusionment to the point of scizoid
>>personality, which makes the individual void of empathy, for example.
>>More planets in water element is more watery than Neptune aspecting
>>many planets.
>
> That last sentence has not been my observation. Do you know any people
> with a Sun/Neptune conjunction, square, or opposition?
Yes, me! Its hard for me to know if all my other water planets are
affecting me, but Neptune is more like a disease than any watery
feeling type planet. I can't begin to explain all the issues that goes
with Neptune-sun. But I can tell you my fiery Sagittarius sun is
still the most evident feature of me. So there you have it. It is
felt both at the same time, they don't cancel each other out (cred
to Magi Society for nailing this point). Sometimes I am a dominating,
leader type Sag, other times a minimized and complicated weirdo.
>
> "Void of empathy" appears to be a pretty rare expression of Neptune
> aspects.
Neptune dissolves and avoids too. Go deeper into astrology and
you'll learn this.
You won't call Uranus airy, just because of Aquarious. It is highly
spirit-evoked among other things. Just like the other outer planets,
they demand so much more of you than just putting them
into elemental categories.
>
>>Neptune is hard to understand, goes through higher
>>centres, water is not, they're always down with their watery feelings.
>>Neptune can in fact avoid any feelings by it's nature.
>
> "It's nature" is sensitivity (emotional and otherwise), sometimes
> extreme and/or exaggerated. Check your favorite astrology book.
And then check out some more, like some logical psychological
consequences of being hypersensitive. The mind/soul blocks it out.
That should be a clue for you.
S
~.^.Saba Gracile.^.~
"pedantus" <peda...@hotmail.com> skrev i melding
news:dc0394a4-d028-4332...@d27g2000vbl.googlegroups.com...
I think you're onto Neptune, it's a big whatev to the superficial ones,
but Neptune is never that. With Neptune you cannot chose to not
be touched, as you are deeply so. In the end it can ruin a soul,
which is why we should be extra kind to neptune folks. They are
not of this planet. Not really.
S
>
Edmond H. Wollmann
wrote:
> "CFA" <bo...@alt.not> skrev i meldingnews:u7ydnXnfnZpUo6DW...@earthlink.com...
>
> - Show quoted text -
Exactly, also, if you use that method, it is silly to say Mercury is
Earth and Air and Venus is Earth and Air.
There are good reasons why these delineation issues are developed.
Neptune is the other-worldly, the ideal, the imagination without
Saturn. As I state in this article:
http://www.astroconsulting.com/FAQs/the.htm
"Let me say at the outset that planets cannot "rule" signs. The signs
- or more appropriately - "sections of space" that signs delineate,
are more expansive in scope and breadth because they stretch to
infinity in all directions extending out from the Earth, and are based
on an archetypal reference to the divisional harmonic of 12 that the
"circle of life" (Zodiac) outlines. Therefore, the planets, which are
within the boundaries of the solar system, either closely align with
the energies reflected in these areas of space, or conflict with them
(meaning the idea they represent is a contradiction to the idea the
sign represents)."
Neptune simply closely aligns with or allows for Pisces to come into
this "system." It is not Pisces itself.
Thanks.
CFA
>Neptune simply closely aligns with or allows for Pisces to come into
>this "system." It is not Pisces itself.
This appears to directly support my assertion.
CFA
No, but you may eventually :-)
'everything rolled into one' implies experience and ... feelings. The
air signs don't encompass actual experience- just the idea of it. The
fire signs represent inspiration, but I'm not sure that's the part
about actually carrying out the inspiration.
Feminine signs do imply experience. So, would earth signs most
accurately represent 'everything rolled into one'? I think the water
signs are closer to it.
Also, Neptune is called the higher octave of Venus? Even if it
includes more than the directly emotional experience, would that mean
complete denial of it?
>>>It can be delusionment to the point of scizoid
>>>personality, which makes the individual void of empathy, for example.
>>>More planets in water element is more watery than Neptune aspecting
>>>many planets.
>>
>> That last sentence has not been my observation. Do you know any people
>> with a Sun/Neptune conjunction, square, or opposition?
>
>Yes, me! Its hard for me to know if all my other water planets are
>affecting me, but Neptune is more like a disease than any watery
>feeling type planet. I can't begin to explain all the issues that goes
>with Neptune-sun. But I can tell you my fiery Sagittarius sun is
>still the most evident feature of me. So there you have it. It is
>felt both at the same time, they don't cancel each other out (cred
>to Magi Society for nailing this point). Sometimes I am a dominating,
>leader type Sag, other times a minimized and complicated weirdo.
>
>> "Void of empathy" appears to be a pretty rare expression of Neptune
>> aspects.
>
>Neptune dissolves and avoids too. Go deeper into astrology and
>you'll learn this.
Yeah, I've spent a little time there... Neptune doesn't aspect my Sun,
but it does hit some others: square Mo, conjunct Me, sextile Ve,
semi-square Mars, square Jupiter, semi-sextile Saturn, sextile Pluto,
square Asc, and opposite North Node.
>You won't call Uranus airy, just because of Aquarious.
Yeah, actually I will, even if it involves other things, like 'highly
spirit-evolved'. People with Uranus aspects to personal points do at
least occasionally act like Aquarians.
>It is highly
>spirit-evoked among other things. Just like the other outer planets,
>they demand so much more of you than just putting them
>into elemental categories.
So would you put personal planets into elemental categories? How do
you reconcile that with those who don't use the outer planets?
>>>Neptune is hard to understand, goes through higher
>>>centres, water is not, they're always down with their watery feelings.
>>>Neptune can in fact avoid any feelings by it's nature.
>>
>> "It's nature" is sensitivity (emotional and otherwise), sometimes
>> extreme and/or exaggerated. Check your favorite astrology book.
>
>And then check out some more, like some logical psychological
>consequences of being hypersensitive. The mind/soul blocks it out.
It would appear to rarely block it completely out. If that's the case,
then we're talking about degrees of awareness. I'm clear that Neptune
aspects or Pisces placements can manifest as a kind of numbness. But
that's not the whole story.
>That should be a clue for you.
Like I don't have one? I'm certainly willing to admit there are plenty
of people who know more than I do. But I've been a professional
astrologer since 1984, so I've had time to look at it.
~.^.Saba Gracile.^.~
"CFA" <bo...@alt.not> skrev i melding news:3i1ap3....@news.alt.net...
and the planets speak for themselves. I don't want to throw the
planetarian symbolisms with their specific meaning into an
elemental mash.
> 'everything rolled into one' implies experience and ... feelings. The
> air signs don't encompass actual experience- just the idea of it. The
> fire signs represent inspiration, but I'm not sure that's the part
> about actually carrying out the inspiration.
Actually fire has very much intuitive intelligence, only
different from water intuition which is more emotionally psychic,
to put it that way.
Air intuition is also very strong, as they 'know' things annoyingly
well about you if they chose (air gets in anywhere). Earth intuition
is practical and swift I suppose, but anybody is welcome to fill
that one in.
>
> Feminine signs do imply experience. So, would earth signs most
> accurately represent 'everything rolled into one'? I think the water
> signs are closer to it.
>
> Also, Neptune is called the higher octave of Venus? Even if it
> includes more than the directly emotional experience, would that mean
> complete denial of it?
Of course the feminine and masculine division is a backdrop as well
as the elemental portions, but why put the planets into such
simple categories when doing actual astroanalysis when they
have their own way of interpretation.
Well yes, it can be a total denial with Neptune. It is usually empathic
(waterlike) because it is conscientious and kind to the core, unless an ill
Neptune.
Very ill aspected we might talk possible total confusion or dissasociation.
Many planets in water can't do that to a person. Hopefully the
mentally ill Neptune person would have many watery planets
to prevent him from doing something horrible (like murder).
Just to point out the nuances of what we're disgussing. I wouldn't
deny that Neptune aspects most likely makes the chart more empathic
though,just to make that clear. Only with planets it can turn the
opposite of the goodness of their character. They have bad sides.
Elements are just there.
>
>>>>It can be delusionment to the point of scizoid
>>>>personality, which makes the individual void of empathy, for example.
>>>>More planets in water element is more watery than Neptune aspecting
>>>>many planets.
>>>
>>> That last sentence has not been my observation. Do you know any people
>>> with a Sun/Neptune conjunction, square, or opposition?
>>
>>Yes, me! Its hard for me to know if all my other water planets are
>>affecting me, but Neptune is more like a disease than any watery
>>feeling type planet. I can't begin to explain all the issues that goes
>>with Neptune-sun. But I can tell you my fiery Sagittarius sun is
>>still the most evident feature of me. So there you have it. It is
>>felt both at the same time, they don't cancel each other out (cred
>>to Magi Society for nailing this point). Sometimes I am a dominating,
>>leader type Sag, other times a minimized and complicated weirdo.
>>
>>> "Void of empathy" appears to be a pretty rare expression of Neptune
>>> aspects.
>>
>>Neptune dissolves and avoids too. Go deeper into astrology and
>>you'll learn this.
>
> Yeah, I've spent a little time there... Neptune doesn't aspect my Sun,
> but it does hit some others: square Mo, conjunct Me, sextile Ve,
> semi-square Mars, square Jupiter, semi-sextile Saturn, sextile Pluto,
> square Asc, and opposite North Node.
That's a whole lot. How has this panned out in your life? I know
Nep-merc conjunctions to be notorious liars (no saying it applies to
you). Neptune quare moon can be a misconception aspect, misdirection
or confusion. Needing others to see it from the outside, because
of the off the mark intuition, either it's too strong or too relaxed about
things perhaps. Acute feelings,nervouseness and romantic too, although
easy eluded.This is a possible interpretation.
>
>>You won't call Uranus airy, just because of Aquarious.
>
> Yeah, actually I will, even if it involves other things, like 'highly
> spirit-evolved'. People with Uranus aspects to personal points do at
> least occasionally act like Aquarians.
Yea or Uranus wouldn't rule Aquarius:p
>
>>It is highly
>>spirit-evoked among other things. Just like the other outer planets,
>>they demand so much more of you than just putting them
>>into elemental categories.
>
> So would you put personal planets into elemental categories? How do
> you reconcile that with those who don't use the outer planets?
>
>>>>Neptune is hard to understand, goes through higher
>>>>centres, water is not, they're always down with their watery feelings.
>>>>Neptune can in fact avoid any feelings by it's nature.
>>>
>>> "It's nature" is sensitivity (emotional and otherwise), sometimes
>>> extreme and/or exaggerated. Check your favorite astrology book.
>>
>>And then check out some more, like some logical psychological
>>consequences of being hypersensitive. The mind/soul blocks it out.
>
> It would appear to rarely block it completely out. If that's the case,
> then we're talking about degrees of awareness. I'm clear that Neptune
> aspects or Pisces placements can manifest as a kind of numbness. But
> that's not the whole story.
>
>>That should be a clue for you.
>
> Like I don't have one? I'm certainly willing to admit there are plenty
> of people who know more than I do. But I've been a professional
> astrologer since 1984, so I've had time to look at it.
No, not like you didn't have one. Heh maybe all your Neptune stuff
wants to throw everything into one big basquet?
S
>
> Ken
> --
> cfa at alt dot net
>
======================================= MODERATOR'S COMMENT:
It is debatable whether Ken invited analysis of his chart, but it also is not certain whether the aspect descriptions are aimed at his chart or are merely general statements, so I shall let this one through and hope all works out well. (P.S. Please remember that comments upon or complaints about moderation are to be directed to the moderators and not to be posted to the group.)
CFA
>"CFA" <bo...@alt.not> skrev i melding news:3i1ap3....@news.alt.net...
>> ~.^.Saba Gracile.^.~ wrote:
>>>"CFA" <bo...@alt.not> skrev i melding news:3hogam....@news.alt.net...
>>>> ~.^.Saba Gracile.^.~ wrote:
>>>>>"CFA" <bo...@alt.not> skrev i melding
>>>Sensitive, hypersensitive is more likely. But yea I understand
>>>the comparison. Just be aware that Neptune is ultra complex
>>>in that it is avoidant of emotions in certain conditions. It is
>>>dissolving and all encompassing, it is nothing and everything
>>>rolled into one. I can't just automatically put it in the category
>>>of the element water.
>>
>> No, but you may eventually :-)
>>
>I could but I won't. The elements make up the background colour
>and the planets speak for themselves. I don't want to throw the
>planetarian symbolisms with their specific meaning into an
>elemental mash.
Isn't that part of interpretation- evaluate things in isolation as
well as integrated with each other? If that's what you're saying
(integration)...
>> Feminine signs do imply experience. So, would earth signs most
>> accurately represent 'everything rolled into one'? I think the water
>> signs are closer to it.
>>
>> Also, Neptune is called the higher octave of Venus? Even if it
>> includes more than the directly emotional experience, would that mean
>> complete denial of it?
>
>Of course the feminine and masculine division is a backdrop as well
>as the elemental portions, but why put the planets into such
>simple categories when doing actual astroanalysis when they
>have their own way of interpretation.
Because it's part of the evaluation. All the cues matter- mode,
element, gender, sign, house, degree, aspect...
>Well yes, it can be a total denial with Neptune. It is usually empathic
>(waterlike) because it is conscientious and kind to the core, unless an ill
>Neptune.
My point was do we always eliminate Venus-connected aspects of
Neptune?
>Very ill aspected we might talk possible total confusion or dissasociation.
>Many planets in water can't do that to a person. Hopefully the
>mentally ill Neptune person would have many watery planets
>to prevent him from doing something horrible (like murder).
>Just to point out the nuances of what we're disgussing. I wouldn't
>deny that Neptune aspects most likely makes the chart more empathic
>though,just to make that clear. Only with planets it can turn the
>opposite of the goodness of their character. They have bad sides.
>Elements are just there.
To my understanding, that's pretty much totally not true. Any element,
like any sign, has a range of possible expressions, from the
worst/most destructive to the best. Where do you think the term
air-head came from? ;-)
>> Yeah, I've spent a little time there... Neptune doesn't aspect my Sun,
>> but it does hit some others: square Mo, conjunct Me, sextile Ve,
>> semi-square Mars, square Jupiter, semi-sextile Saturn, sextile Pluto,
>> square Asc, and opposite North Node.
>
>That's a whole lot. How has this panned out in your life?
Neptune is really the centerpiece of my chart and my life, even if
I'll rebelled at times in re: my 'calling': service.
>I know
>Nep-merc conjunctions to be notorious liars (no saying it applies to
>you). Neptune quare moon can be a misconception aspect, misdirection
>or confusion. Needing others to see it from the outside, because
>of the off the mark intuition, either it's too strong or too relaxed about
>things perhaps. Acute feelings,nervouseness and romantic too, although
>easy eluded.This is a possible interpretation.
With an Asc/Moon/Jupiter conjunction, it's not that bad.
>======================================= MODERATOR'S COMMENT:
> It is debatable whether Ken invited analysis of his chart, but it also is not
>certain whether the aspect descriptions are aimed at his chart or are merely
>general statements, so I shall let this one through and hope all works out well.
>(P.S. Please remember that comments upon or complaints about moderation
>are to be directed to the moderators and not to be posted to the group.)
I'm fine with observer comments about my chart. That's for the group,
too.
~.^.Saba Gracile.^.~
"CFA" <bo...@alt.not> skrev i melding news:3i3u71....@news.alt.net...
> ~.^.Saba Gracile.^.~ wrote:
>>"CFA" <bo...@alt.not> skrev i melding news:3i1ap3....@news.alt.net...
>>> ~.^.Saba Gracile.^.~ wrote:
>>>>"CFA" <bo...@alt.not> skrev i melding
>>>>news:3hogam....@news.alt.net...
>>>>> ~.^.Saba Gracile.^.~ wrote:
>>>>>>"CFA" <bo...@alt.not> skrev i melding
>
>
>>>>Sensitive, hypersensitive is more likely. But yea I understand
>>>>the comparison. Just be aware that Neptune is ultra complex
>>>>in that it is avoidant of emotions in certain conditions. It is
>>>>dissolving and all encompassing, it is nothing and everything
>>>>rolled into one. I can't just automatically put it in the category
>>>>of the element water.
>>>
>>> No, but you may eventually :-)
>>>
>>I could but I won't. The elements make up the background colour
>>and the planets speak for themselves. I don't want to throw the
>>planetarian symbolisms with their specific meaning into an
>>elemental mash.
>
> Isn't that part of interpretation- evaluate things in isolation as
> well as integrated with each other? If that's what you're saying
> (integration)...
Of course, it's all part of the same chart. Planets have more personality
and meaning involved though,that needs to be taken care of on it's own,
to get the development of the person. We're not disagreeing on alot,
just that I don't want to be lazy about getting into the nitty gritty
of the planets, while not forgetting what basic kind of person I'm dealing
with (elements). Mostly the moon in element tells the most, if its
in air or water/earth holds a huge significance, I find. Air moons
(fire to a certain degree) are one-sided towards the self
(their ego and understanding reaches no further).
>
>
>>> Feminine signs do imply experience. So, would earth signs most
>>> accurately represent 'everything rolled into one'? I think the water
>>> signs are closer to it.
>>>
>>> Also, Neptune is called the higher octave of Venus? Even if it
>>> includes more than the directly emotional experience, would that mean
>>> complete denial of it?
>>
>>Of course the feminine and masculine division is a backdrop as well
>>as the elemental portions, but why put the planets into such
>>simple categories when doing actual astroanalysis when they
>>have their own way of interpretation.
>
> Because it's part of the evaluation. All the cues matter- mode,
> element, gender, sign, house, degree, aspect...
>
>>Well yes, it can be a total denial with Neptune. It is usually empathic
>>(waterlike) because it is conscientious and kind to the core, unless an
>>ill
>>Neptune.
>
> My point was do we always eliminate Venus-connected aspects of
> Neptune?
If love is embodied in Venus (more physical and aestethically), then
Neptune is the higher Love (martyrdom, self-elimination etc) for the
greater cause. Venus rules Taurus too which means you might think
of Neptune as earthy? I don't know how far you want to stretch this
thing..seems you like to make abstractions like this.
>
>>Very ill aspected we might talk possible total confusion or
>>dissasociation.
>>Many planets in water can't do that to a person. Hopefully the
>>mentally ill Neptune person would have many watery planets
>>to prevent him from doing something horrible (like murder).
>>Just to point out the nuances of what we're disgussing. I wouldn't
>>deny that Neptune aspects most likely makes the chart more empathic
>>though,just to make that clear. Only with planets it can turn the
>>opposite of the goodness of their character. They have bad sides.
>>Elements are just there.
>
> To my understanding, that's pretty much totally not true. Any element,
> like any sign, has a range of possible expressions, from the
> worst/most destructive to the best. Where do you think the term
> air-head came from? ;-)
It's not that elements are unimportant allright? You want to defend just
to defend, you know what I mean right? Can't talk like that to clients
at least you have to find out what their planets are saying because they
withould so much more information, that's all I'm saying. I even show you
how a planet that is supposedly good can backfire and ruin your whole
idea of it being empathic and same as water.
>
>
>>> Yeah, I've spent a little time there... Neptune doesn't aspect my Sun,
>>> but it does hit some others: square Mo, conjunct Me, sextile Ve,
>>> semi-square Mars, square Jupiter, semi-sextile Saturn, sextile Pluto,
>>> square Asc, and opposite North Node.
>>
>>That's a whole lot. How has this panned out in your life?
>
> Neptune is really the centerpiece of my chart and my life, even if
> I'll rebelled at times in re: my 'calling': service.
Ok, not sure what you mean but..
>
>>I know
>>Nep-merc conjunctions to be notorious liars (no saying it applies to
>>you). Neptune quare moon can be a misconception aspect, misdirection
>>or confusion. Needing others to see it from the outside, because
>>of the off the mark intuition, either it's too strong or too relaxed about
>>things perhaps. Acute feelings,nervouseness and romantic too, although
>>easy eluded.This is a possible interpretation.
>
> With an Asc/Moon/Jupiter conjunction, it's not that bad.
Ey, you can be big mooded, actually you're kind of Sag like yourself
with that so don't dis us hehe. Ey, that's the planets talking,.
>
>
>>======================================= MODERATOR'S COMMENT:
>> It is debatable whether Ken invited analysis of his chart, but it also is
>> not
>>certain whether the aspect descriptions are aimed at his chart or are
>>merely
>>general statements, so I shall let this one through and hope all works out
>>well.
>>(P.S. Please remember that comments upon or complaints about moderation
>>are to be directed to the moderators and not to be posted to the group.)
>
> I'm fine with observer comments about my chart. That's for the group,
> too.
Said no applying to you meaning general talk. And I'm always interested in
the general knowledge (Sag).
>
> Ken
> --
> cfa at alt dot net
>
S
Edmond H. Wollmann
No it does not. Because your underlying argument is that delineating
the Elements is irrelevant if you give enough power to the aspects and
planets etc., which is saying if you have enough apples there are
therefore oranges, and to that I will never agree.
In logical analysis fragments do not overwhelm the overlaying truth
premise, they only add to it or diverge from it (Venn diagrams).
Delineating the Elements properly is essential regardless of what the
chart shows after that has been done and what follows can only be
built upon what the initial delineation of Elements establishes. So, I
believe, at least on my side. I am finished with the argument and I
would assert that your method and argument is incomplete at best and
seems to be simply for the sake of arguing.
Of course you are free to disagree. The person we were discussing has
the most debilitating lack in Cardinal, followed by Water, Fire,
Earth. Overcompensation would therefore be in Air Fixed, which is a
conclusion we would come to regardless in this case, but taking the
proper and diligents steps would assist us in delineations that are
not so glaring.
They do not believe in action and motivation may indeed be an issue.
Thanks
CFA
>On Feb 25, 12:28�am, CFA <bo...@alt.not> wrote:
>> Edmond H. Wollmann wrote:
>> >Neptune simply closely aligns with or allows for Pisces to come into
>> >this "system." It is not Pisces itself.
>>
>> This appears to directly support my assertion.
>
To say "Neptune simply closely aligns with or allows for Pisces to
come into this "system." " certainly appears to support my idea that
this person can consciously access the emotional side of their nature.
That is not, in my mind, the experience of someone with a chart 'low
in water'.
>Because your underlying argument is that delineating
>the Elements is irrelevant if you give enough power to the aspects and
>planets etc., which is saying if you have enough apples there are
>therefore oranges, and to that I will never agree.
Nor would I expect you to, because that wasn't my assertion. IMO,
saying this particular chart is low in water, apparently based solely
on the elemental table, was an incomplete statement. That doesn't
eliminate or invalidate the information available from the table.
>In logical analysis fragments do not overwhelm the overlaying truth
>premise, they only add to it or diverge from it (Venn diagrams).
Agreed, though I wouldn't consider Neptune squaring 5 personal planets
a 'fragment'. It's the centerpiece of the chart.
>Delineating the Elements properly is essential regardless of what the
>chart shows after that has been done and what follows can only be
>built upon what the initial delineation of Elements establishes. So, I
>believe, at least on my side. I am finished with the argument and I
>would assert that your method and argument is incomplete at best and
>seems to be simply for the sake of arguing.
>Of course you are free to disagree.
I can, and do, without calling it an 'argument'. I'm not convinced
this chart is 'low in water'.
>The person we were discussing has
>the most debilitating lack in Cardinal, followed by Water, Fire,
>Earth. Overcompensation would therefore be in Air Fixed, which is a
>conclusion we would come to regardless in this case, but taking the
>proper and diligents steps would assist us in delineations that are
>not so glaring.
>They do not believe in action and motivation may indeed be an issue.
I believe it would be worth querying the owner of the chart to see if
these are accurate assessments. I have asked a couple of questions,
but haven't heard back yet.
Edmond H. Wollmann
As I stated, the chart is low not only in Water, but Fire and Earth,
and most notably, Cardinal. The person in question may not be aware of
it and even be defensive about the analysis even in consultation-- so
what they would say (or you) on usenet is useless to me. I know I am
correct and am done with it. The only way it could be "proven" would
be a willing client and a consultation, neither of which will ever
come about now. Nor am I interested any further.
pedantus
wrote:
> On Feb 8, 2:21 pm, Hermes <astalde...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 8, 3:20 am, "Edmond H. Wollmann" <arcturian...@earthlink.net>
> > wrote:
>
> > > I believe supplanting "pictures that look like charts" is a measure of
> > > incompetance.
>
> > I am not sure if the "art-chart" correspondence always or even often
> > works (too little personal experience with it), but at least in this
> > example between Liz Greene's birth chart and her cover illustration
> > for her book "The Astrology of Fate" it looks convincing to me:
>
>
> > I brought this up about two years ago here, as an application of my
> > limited perception of what Pedantus does with such things.
>
> > Here is a link to a post from Pedantus from then, plus a link to a
> > similar superposition image by Pedantus with some comments by him:
>
> > http://pedantus.free.fr/LizGreene_01a2.gif
>
> > The cover illustration is by Liz Greene herself, as it says inside the
> > cover of the book. (Liz Greene also stated that she used to paint when
> > she was young, in a Mountain Astrologer interview a few years ago.)
>
> > A main focus is arguably on the shears that Atropos, the oldest of the
> > Fates, is holding, symbolizing the claws of Scorpio before apparently
> > Scorpio was split ("cut" like with shears) into two star signs
> > sometime around the second century BC (at least according to Liz
> > Greene's own account in the same book). Besides her birth chart, there
> > was also a Sat-Plu conjunction near that "cutting point" near the end
> > of Libra around 1983 when she likely made the illustration and wrote
> > the book (published in 1984). Also her progressed sun was around there
> > at the time. The cave in the drawing and the sun (light) there can be
> > seen to mirror the glyph of Leo, and the trees in the landscape
> > outside can be seen to mirror the planets mercury-sun and saturn-
> > pluto. Most of the other planets are on the faces of the Fates; the IC
> > and part of fortune are in Pisces which is fittingly occupied by one
> > foot of the middle Fate (the one that measures). And I think more
> > could be seen. I would say the thread stands also for the nodal axis,
> > is just bent a little out of way of the inner birth chart shown.
>
> > Of course, with Liz Greene being an astrologer, maybe she unconciously
> > (or even consciously) could have crafted the drawing to reflect her
> > chart.
>
> > )o+
>
> © 2010 Altair Publications, SAN 299-5603
> Youtubehttp://www.youtube.com/user/EHWollmann
> Twitterhttp://twitter.com/Altairtheflyer
Ed,
I am only concerned with astrology, its actual existence, the
phenomenology of planet/aspect and linguistic or graphic parallels of
intended significations, and not ever concerned one wit with
'astrological counseling'-which seems your primary interest--"reading"
horoscopes. etc..
At the center of my thought is the most rigid investigations of the
individual human being as an evolved perceiver of environmental
stimuli. The veiw from Science as collected for our perusal and
reflection in such works as Steven Pinkers' , "The Blank Slate".
Science and astrology both hold that were are individuated phenotypes--
adapting particular consciousnesses. At some point the drier physical
explanations of how neural networks give rise to the "soul" meets with
the individual preference which astrology codes in in own sloppy
shorthand. Counseling by reading horoscopes is plagued with Derrida's
paradoxical saying: "As soon as there is language, generality has
entered the scene."
So, I hold that Kepler's attitude is most likely the most fruitful
path for the study of astrology per se. Your preferred art of reading,
and cementing the rules of "delineation" is completely irrelevant to
astrology in itself; in most cases it is just another appeal to
authority--'astrologers' (astrologists) seeking the validity of some
chosen "expert" reading " method (and the eststem of their own
position as authority). I assume only that a phenomenon of astrology
actually may exist, and that it exists independently along side the
traditions you cite, etc. Just as Kepler himself asserts: I think
your argument is with Kepler, and not Horoscopic Expressionism--the
search for objective measurements of astrological phenomena which are
merely encapsulated in language and image as a result of human
perception and cognition.
from:
http://cura.free.fr/docum/15kep-en.html
"[..] Herr von Taxus writes with the request to analyze the nativity
[of Wallenstein] as extensively and with as much detail as possible.
Furthermore, after I have rectified it, then I am supposed to
discourse upon it at even greater length.
In carrying out this request, I limited the scope of the mundane
particularities. Of course astrologers are not lacking in techniques
for satisfying peoples' curiosity. But I have put such "rules" to the
philosophical test, and I have no use for them whatsoever. Am I
nevertheless supposed to let myself be used as a comedian, a
performer, or some other kind of marketplace entertainer? There are
plenty of young astrologers who are so inclined, and have faith in
such games. Whoever wants to be fooled with eyes wide open, let him
make use of their efforts and entertainment. Philosophy, and therefore
genuine astrology, is a testimony of God's works, and is therefore
holy. It is by no means a frivolous thing. And I, for my part, do not
wish to dishonor it.
(Revised Delineation of This [Wallenstein's] Horoscope. Cast in
January, 1625) [..]"
I do not have Kepler's devotion to Christian version of a Creator,
but Kepler did not let Christian *or* astrological bafflegab interfere
with his focus on objective observation.
We should investigate astrology by testing its discipline-defining
special associations in the most objective manner possible. In short,
to read the phenomenology of persons and thereby incorporate the
tradition assumptions as hypotheses. Though these by infected with
the distortions of cultural biases, they are what we have to start
with. We should these linguistically transmitted at then attempt to
"predict' the charts of those persons, and thereby overcome the
inherent generalities which cause so much unnecessary conflicts
between propositions. Some persons are individuated and thus more
present in the world of phenomena, more 'here' for us to examine than
others. though most persons are not in a comma, they may still live
and die as a kind of unexpressed enigma in terms of what we can
observe of the psyche's individual nature and preferences. If thought
is who we are, we may see 'thinkers' and graphic artists as more
clearly expressed persons. These subjects should most likely lead the
'astrologer' to observe and experiment more productively, more likely
to eliminate the need for 'astrologists' make-up a subject for
examination by "reading" their horoscope. "Horoscopes" are then for
'reading', ( and the projection of the reader's biases) and natal
charts are for the confirmation of hypotheses seeking objective
feedback. You should like that idea if you like research.
One really big problem with informally conducted searches for
observations with elevated objectivity, is not that we do not find
them, rather, is just that there are so few persons presenting
appropriate amounts of individuation and the expressive art of
conveying the otherwise unobservable phenomena needed as the material
under investigation. Two legged cliches are what the world finds in
the modern world of blank slate believing amateur social scientists--
in other words--average, normal people...: ) When, however, 'a star'
is born, we seem to see them more as individuals with observable
(neutral) "quirks"--the artistic expressions of the psyche (itself a
product of evolution and natural selection--with probabilistic
variances in development while both inside and outside the womb )
which lie ever hidden from scrutiny their inside the light-less skull
of a mass media head-shot.
I am only calling for astrologers to think 'scientifically'' as
Kepler describes it, not as you describe it...:)
The second major problem with independent informal 'research' is
that the experiment has only the good will of his reader to rely on
for the effective transmission of that researches content. Good will
is an evolution-based possibility for adaption, not an inheritance, a
by-product of the developing psyche produced only by experiences which
forward its possible expression--people are at base paranoid and
diffident (not confident). Nature in her infinite wisdom has served us
well--skepticism, even extremes of skepticism ( an outright fear) are
naturally occurring to human beings, and these barriers of
communication are only over come by a widening circle of trust
exhibited by the in-group members in an altruistically interdependent
manner.
In the interest of fostering altruism and astrology I freely give
this group, and anyone else, the benefit of my cogitations and
experiences, and like Kepler I do not intend to compete with the
"creator" nor assume one can know the mind of the universe, but only
attempt to widen the circle of our awareness by more and more
*objective* means. Ignorance raves and rants in cultural pond of
muddied tendrils organic connections of kinship and vanities, the
waters polluted, agitated, and all the more obscuring for that very
circumstance.
Astrology is only the confirmation of astrological patterning and
the assumption that persons have innate pattern promoters in there
evolved, completely mortal, psyche. Astrology is not counseling,and
while counseling the astrologer has, like Elvis, left the building of
astrology.
You have no interest in my work fine, this is probably as it should
be, for *you*, but to say that you understand in the manner I do, and
that you have the mystical authority to value it properly, is to
assume that you have more "competence" than even Kepler himself...:)
Would that I could show him the image(s) he sought:
"In the vital power of the human being that is ignited at birth there
glows that remembered image." --Johannes Kepler, World Harmony (1619)
The parallels of the natal chart image are often reflected in
graphic and linguistic art...and this , Horoscopic Expressionism, is
indeed the most objective research path we have concerning so-called
psychological astrology--"Read people: 'predict' charts!" If one
cannot use and actual ruler and protractor to make measurements:
http://pedantus.free.fr/Ligal_E_Fig.3.gif
"[..]Dear Roger L. Satterlee
I was born on 17th May 1958 at 3:10 PM. Does this makes any sense to
you? I hope so. Thanks for yours appreciations and many greetings for
yours studies.
Ciao
Emanuela Ligal [..] "
Whenever someone else gets around to measuring "art" and
(hypothesizing) 'predicting' natal charts, we will much to talk
about...and Kepler's ghost will kiss you...:)
Rog