Judyth: From the Beginning, Part 7
Dave Reitzes
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/251781bb92232fd1?dmode=source
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From: llli...@aol.com (Llliibb)
Subject: Re: Group Consensus--LHO in N.O.
Date: 2000/05/02
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Martin--
That famous CAP picture... There was a time when that picture would have
been worth a lot of money. And/or an important contribution to the
national good. Yet, it did not surface until decades later. Could you
comment on why?
For that matter, Tannenbaum and the purported film of Oswald at an exile
training camp. No one else has ever reported seeing this, right? Is this
not sufficient reason to regard this with, uh, _acute_ skepticism?
Bill B
>Subject: Re: Group Consensus--LHO in N.O.
>From: Martin Shackelford msh...@concentric.net
>Date: 5/1/00 10:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <390E3894.F6D79...@concentric.net>
>
>Jim Canal, author of the new book Silencing the Lone Assassin, and a
>believer that Oswald did it alone, also believes that Oswald and Ferrie
>were very close, partly based on his own interviews with witnesses,
>including one in the Oswald-Ferrie CAP photo.
>
>Martin
>--
>Martin Shackelford
>
>"You're going to find that many of the truths we
> cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."
> -Obi-Wan Kenobi
>
>"You must unlearn what you have learned." --Yoda
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From: Martin Shackelford <msh...@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Group Consensus--LHO in N.O.
Date: 2000/05/04
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Bill:
The CAP photo surfaced when someone contacted CAP members to see
what they had. Many other people may have important evidenct without
realizing it. Most people don't follow this case, and wouldn't know most
evidence on sight.
Tanenbaum has reported seeing the film. Not sure about others.
Martin
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From: Martin Shackelford <msh...@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Group Consensus--LHO in N.O.
Date: 2000/05/04
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Correction:
A second witness reports having seen the film mentioned by Tanenbaum, or
one similar to it, but hasn't yet gone public.
Martin
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From: Martin Shackelford <msh...@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Group Consensus--LHO in N.O.
Date: 2000/05/05
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Bill:
The witness was shown the film by David Ferrie in Oswald's presence
in 1963. The former wife of David Lewis, a sometime Banister employee, has
confirmed (in a filmed interview), the relationship between the witness
and Oswald, having seen them together on numerous occasions that summer,
outside of work (the two worked together at Reily Co., a fact which is
well documented). At this point, that's about all I can say--and I was
just given the OK by the witness to say that much.
Expect more information on this and related matters sometime in the
not-too-distant future. This new evidence contains both familiar elements,
and some major surprises for a variety of viewpoints in this case. Very
exciting stuff!
Martin
Llliibb wrote:
> >Subject: Re: Group Consensus--LHO in N.O.
> >From: Martin Shackelford msh...@concentric.net
> >Date: 5/4/00 5:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time
> >Message-id: <3911EF16.352B8...@concentric.net>
> >
> >Correction:
> >A second witness reports having seen the film mentioned by Tanenbaum, or
> >one similar to it, but hasn't yet gone public.
> >
> >Martin
>
> Sigh. Very few other posters here who would not draw a response along the
> lines of, um, what _else_ did Jean say? That said, I will wait for the public
> exposition. Without optimism.
>
> Bill B
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From: jpshin...@my-deja.com
Subject: Re: Group Consensus--LHO in N.O.
Date: 2000/05/05
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Is this related?
http://www.salon.com/people/col/reit/1999/04/22/oswald/
Didn't this Judyth person post a bit here last year using the id
Electlady?
Jerry Shinley
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From: Martin Shackelford <msh...@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Group Consensus--LHO in N.O.
Date: 2000/05/06
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Bill:
A few more details. Ferrie was assembling pieces of film, so there
wasn't a single continuous reel of footage (though there may be more than
one such film). The segments were shot on different days-- the lighting
was different--and one segment was shot indoors in a bare room.
Martin
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From: stugra...@aol.com (Stugrad98)
Subject: Re: Group Consensus--LHO in N.O.
Date: 2000/05/06
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Martin,
Is "Judyth" your source? Please at least tell us no, because she sounds
as though she isn't to be believed and you certainly have my hopes up.
-Stu
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From: Debra Conway <de...@jfklancer.com>
Subject: Re: Group Consensus--LHO in N.O.
Date: 2000/05/06
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See
http://x39.deja.com/[ST_rn=ap]/dnquery.xp?search=word&defaultOp=and&query=%7
ea%20(elec
And yes, this is the same Judyth referred to in the Salon articles.
Debra Conway
http://jfklancer.com
> From: Martin Shackelford <msh...@concentric.net>
> Organization: Concentric Internet Services
> Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
> Date: 05 May 2000 23:56:25 EDT
> Subject: Re: Group Consensus--LHO in N.O.
>
> No idea if she did or not, Jerry.
>
> Martin
>
> jpshin...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
>> Is this related?
>>
>> http://www.salon.com/people/col/reit/1999/04/22/oswald/
>>
>> Didn't this Judyth person post a bit here last year using the id
>> Electlady?
>>
>> Jerry Shinley
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From: Martin Shackelford <msh...@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Group Consensus--LHO in N.O.
Date: 2000/05/15
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Joe:
Oswald was present when Ferrie showed the film, and pointed
himself out to the witness. Is that not sufficient identification?
It's true that we don't know where the film is today--that would
be customary with suppressed evidence. Bob Tanenbaum was assistant chief
counsel to the HSCA, and reports the committee staff found the film at the
Georgetown University Library, and placed it among their evidence. There
is no reason to believe he is not a reliable witness on this matter.
I'm not saying any of this proves anything. What I am saying is
that it is sufficient basis to keep looking for the film. Then we can all
see what it shows.
Martin
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From: Debra Conway <de...@jfklancer.com>
Subject: Re: Group Consensus--LHO in N.O.
Date: 2000/05/15
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This may have been posted to this group already, but just in case, here is
Tannenbaum's address to the ARRB in Los Angeles. I was in the audience and
I can assure you he meant every word about the film and stated it firmly.
Tannenbaum has been criticized by many for writing a novel about his
experiences instead of a non-fiction book. I'm not going to address that
here, only encourage you to read his testimony.
Thanks,
Debra
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/arrb/index32.htm
Though I wish everyone would read the entire transcript, here are some
quotes on his experience with the film.
"We came across a film of anti-Castro Cubans -- who were identified as
anti-Castro Cubans -- not on the film [Debra's note: not identified by
name] but people who we recognized -- and these soldier of fortune types
with the contract employees CIA, the Sturgess', the Hemmings and other
individuals. Again, it was somewhat shocking to me because I learned that
PS 238 in Brooklyn when I was in public school, that there was the Army,
Navy, Air Force and Marines and Coast Guard, I didn't know about any
secret armies that were existing in America."
"DR. HALL: I have a two-part question for you. Part one is, I think in
your answer to Judge Tunheim about what other materials might be there,
you didn't speak to the question of the film that you mentioned both in
your PROBE interview as well I believe in "Corruption of Blood" that deals
with anti-Castro Cubans and the group that was there. So I wonder if you
could speak to that particular matter.
"As far as where the film is, again, I can only tell you that all of the
material I assume was in the same place, and that is where all the
documents were kept in the document area as well as -- and when I say
"documents" I include in that witnesses' statements and memos that were
drafted, films, medical evidence and other pieces of evidentiary value. So
I can't tell you exactly what room it was in, but we had it in our
possession.
DR. HALL: And that film had been obtained from the Georgetown University
library?
MR. TANENBAUM: That's my best recollection is that our investigators,
researchers found it in the Georgetown library archives as I recall.
DR. HALL: And just for the record, the significance of this film if it
were now recovered, would be?
MR. TANENBAUM: If it showed -- again, it could be Sherlock Holmes again.
It could be everything it could be nothing. On one hand it shows a lot of
anti-Castro Cuban players with CIA contract people in a military training
setting. It was some speculation, somewhat unclear, as to the direct
identities of some of these people, and as I stand here now I'm not going
to tell you exactly who they were. But, it was some of the major players
in this whole case.
Now, does that mean, for example, and in direct answer to your question,
Mr. Hall, that if we continued our probe into the anti-Castro Cuban
connection with the CIA that that would show that the CIA in some fashion
was responsible for the assassination, I can't say that and will not say
that. And it doesn't mean also that Lee Harvey Oswald didn't act alone, I
can't say that. But there's certain medical evidence and other evidence
that suggests that perhaps he did not act alone. That's a whole different
area of inquiry. So with respect to the film, it was just another piece of
this great mosaic of trying to understand and recapture what occurred at a
time. And that's one of the reasons why it was a fascinating view.
DR. HALL: But the critical piece here, this is a piece of material that
you had previously seen in the course of your role as an investigator that
is at the moment not available --
MR. TANENBAUM: Again, I don't know where it is -- but, yes, I did see that
as my role on the Committee.
DR. HALL: Thank you. "
--
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> From: Martin Shackelford <msh...@concentric.net>
> Organization: Concentric Internet Services
> Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
> Date: 14 May 2000 23:28:22 EDT
> Subject: Re: Group Consensus--LHO in N.O.
>
> No.
> I've talked with another witness who saw it or a similar film at Ferrie's
> apartment in the summer of 1963.
>
> Martin
>
> joezir...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
>> Lee me ask it another way: Where's this film today? Who has confirmed
>> its existence? What studies were done to ensure it's Oswald in the film
>> as opposed to, for instance, Billy Lovelady? Remember the Altgens photo?
>>
>> Does this entire film rest at this point on Tannenbaum's word?
>>
>> In article <391DC631.F6B40...@concentric.net>,
>> Martin Shackelford <msh...@concentric.net> wrote:
>>> What I meant, Joe, quite clearly, is that Tanenbaum confirmed that
>> there
>>> was such a film, and that it wasn't just a detail he made up for the
>> novel.
>>>
>>> Martin
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From: Martin Shackelford <msh...@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Group Consensus--LHO in N.O.
Date: 2000/05/15
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Tanenbaum told Probe:
JD: Another thing you've discussed and it's featured in your book, is this
incredible movie of the Cuban exile training camp.
BT: To the best of my recollection, we found that movie somewhere in the
Georgetown library archives. The movie was shocking to me because it
demonstrated the notion that the CIA was training, in America, a separate
army. It was shocking to me because I'm a true believer in the system and
yet there are notorious characters in the system, who are being funded by
the system, who are absolutely un-American! And who knows what they would
do, eventually. What if we send people to Washington who they can't deal
with? Out comes their secret army? So, I find that to be as contrary to
the constitution as you can get.
JD: Was it really as you described in the book, with all the people in
that film? Bishop was in the film?
BT: Oh, yeah. Absolutely! They're all in the film. They're all there. But,
the fact of the matter is the Committee began to balk at a series of
events. The most significant one was when [David Atlee] Phillips came up
before the Committee and then had to be recalled because it was clear that
he hadn't told the truth. That had to do with the phony commentary he made
about Oswald going to Mexico City on or about October 1st, 1963.
So, what does Tanenbaum say in "Corruption of Blood" that he here affirms
as being taken from factual details of the HSCA investigation:
p. 142
"several spools of 8mm film" belonging to David Ferrie, acquired by a
reporter. [Reportedly from an Associated Press archive at Georgetown
University]. [This is from some notes I made--if anyone has the book
handy, please quote his description of the film's contents. Not sure where
my copy is at present.]
Martin
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From: Martin Shackelford <msh...@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Group Consensus--LHO in N.O.
Date: 2000/05/17
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Joe:
A published photograph shows the witness in Oswald's presence
(closer than Ferrie is to Oswald in the CAP photo).
Documents verify the witness began working at Reily, and stopped
working at Reily, at approximately the same time as Oswald.
There is other documentation, but that's about all I can say at
the moment.
Martin
joezir...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <3920B478.20654...@concentric.net>,
> Martin Shackelford <msh...@concentric.net> wrote:
> > Joe:
> >
> > Oswald was present when Ferrie showed the film, and pointed
> > himself out to the witness. Is that not sufficient identification?
>
> No. Because this ID, the film, the whole kit & kiboodle, is all
> according to the same person, (not Tannenbaum), right?
>
> How trustworthy is that person? You see the problem?
>
> I've got a witness that points out BigFoot in a film of the grassy
> knoll that looks like the Blair Witch Project. My witness says Bigfoot
> pointed himself out to my witness when they viewed the film. This is
> just before the UFO took BigFoot and the film away.
>
> Is that not sufficient identification?
>
> Why not? It's exactly the same as what you've presented? An unnamed
> witness. A supposed ID. A missing film. Why won't I agree yours is
> sufficient? For the same reason you won't agree mine is.
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An e-mail from Howard Platzman:
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Subj: Doings at Banister's
Date: 9/2/00 11:23:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From: Howpl
To: Dreitzes
Dave, you know that Martin and I have been working with a new witness,
actually with more than one. Despite being confronted with news of the
apparent well-being of all of Banister's secretaries, a secondary witness
[Anna Lewis Vincent] continues to insist that one was found dead in the
river. Apparently we got the name slightly wrong. The following was
produced from I-know-not-where, but I can check if you insist.
From a statement given by Shirley Basile, white female, age 25, resides
2833 St. Charles, Apt. 39. Given January 6, 1966:
"Worked part time for Guy Banister from 1960 to 1961...She also knows Jack
Martin...She can't remember any dealings with Cubans while she was
employed by Banister...Miss Basile also stated that Anna Burglass was a
very close friend of Banister, and also did some investigative work for
him. Also an investigator named Joseph Newbrough worked for Banister with
Martin. Newbrough spent 5 years in Federal pen for embezzelment."
This raises two issues -- side issues, really, but you may have some
knowledge.
First, the dead secretary issue won't go away, except it may not have been
a secretary. Does Burglass ring a bell?
Second, the use of Newbrough by Lambert and others. His conviction for
embezzlement doesn't do much for his credibility, but that's no reason for
him to lie about Oswald or the much-debated stairway. Yet he did deny that
Banister had any dealings with Sergio Archacha Smith. The only way he
could say this truthfully is if he worked for Banister before 1962, in
which case his testimony about who he did and didn't see in 1963 is pretty
useless.
Don't kill yourself researching these items. Just thought you might be
able to straighten them out.
Howard
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My e-mail response:
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In a message dated 9/2/00 11:23:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Howpl
writes:
> From a statement given by Shirley Basile, white female, age 25, resides 2833
> St. Charles, Apt. 39. Given January 6, 1966:
>
> "Worked part time for Guy Banister from 1960 to 1961...She also knows Jack
> Martin...She can't remember any dealings with Cubans while she was employed
> by Banister...Miss Basile also stated that Anna Burglass was a very close
> friend of Banister, and also did some investigative work for him.
Shirley Basile was apparently a Banister employee. I don't know anything
about her, but David Blackburst once mentioned her, so you might want to
check with him (black...@aol.com).
My database contains precisely one reference to Anna Burglass. According
to a newsgroup post by David Boylan, Anna Burglass was one of numerous
individuals named by Thomas Beckham as having attended a JFK conspiracy
meeting with him, one of seveal such meetings Beckham claimed to have
attended. Boylan wrote: "Beckham told the HSCA (Delsa and Buras, HSCA RIF
12110016) that he attended a meeting with Sergio Arcacha, G Wray Gill,
Vincent Marcello, Charlie Morello, Roswell Thompson, Anna Burglass and
some 'Cubans.' The topic of conversation was the assassination of the
President." "He also told them that he attended another meeting where his
'good friend Clay Shaw,' Jack Martin, David Ferrie, and G. Wray Gill
further discussed the assassination. Ferrie gave Beckham maps and money to
bring to Lawrence Howard in Dallas."
Beckham's one of the least reliable witnesses there has ever existed in
this case, but chances are he didn't invent Burglass' name.
Dave
<QUOTE OFF>------------------------------------
The claim about a murdered Banister secretary is mentioned in Anna
Lewis Vincent's videotaped interview archived here:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2140352666545542746
Dave