Group Consensus--LHO in N.O.
Emmatyler
significance of Oswald's life in New Orleans, some about his early life but
particularly the mysterious weeks in late spring/early summer 63 when he
started his FPCC shenanigans.
I am a freelance producer in New Orleans, and am pitching the local PBS station
to do a documentary on this topic. When offering your response, keep in mind
that the people I would have to convince--"the suits"--are influenced by how
the story fits in a historical, even academic context (although don't feel
limited by this constraint; for example, I certainly plan to explore the Adele
Edisen story, and I have a particular interest in anecdotal and speculative
material). But these powers-that-be are naturally skeptical about conspiracy
theories, so we have to educate them.
Thanks in advance,
Stephen Tyler
Jerry
been accepted uncritically by conspiracy theorists.
However, authors who have visited New Orleans and investigated - authors
like Gus Russo - find that all of the supposed mysterious contacts with
(supposed) mysterious and (supposed) assassination-related people like
Dave Ferrie and Guy Banister never occurred.
First off, Banister and Ferrie were not the sinister persons that
authors have fabricated and secondly, Oswald didn't know them. Or Shaw.
Oswald likely knew nobody well in New Orleans save his aunt Lil and her
family. Cuba and Castro dating back to his days in the Marines.
In Dallas he joined the FPCC and likely passed out literature.
In fact, Oswald wished to defect to Cuba and was engaged in creating a
dossier which would show him to be a friend of the revolution.
In fact, when he needed a little help passing out literature - and when
he knew the TV cameras would be rolling - he hired a few guys from the
local unemployment office.
That's all there was to it.
Jerry
In article <20000501112635...@ng-cn1.aol.com>,
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Atlasrecrd
Below is Warren Commission testimony from 3 people that encountered Oswald in
New Orleans.
Any discussion of his time there must take into account and explain their
observations.
Mr. Liebeler.
Where do you work?
Mr. Rodriguez.
I am a bartender at nights at the Habana Bar at 117 Decatur Street. Mr.
Liebeler.
How long have you worked there?
Mr. Rodriguez.
About 1 year and 3 months. I have worked there about 1 year and 3 months. Mr.
Liebeler.
Do you know Orest Pena?
Mr. Rodriguez.
Yes.
Mr. Liebeler.
Ruperto Pena?
Mr. Rodriguez.
[answering directly]. Yes.
Mr. Liebeler.
Carlos Bringuier?
Mr. Rodriguez.
[answering directly]. Yes.
Mr. Liebeler.
We have information that you saw a man whom you believe to be Lee Harvey Oswald
in the bar some time in 1963. Would you tell us all about that? Mr. Rodriguez.
These men came into the bar, two men came into the bar, one of them which I
learned later through TV and pictures and newspapers was Oswald. These men came
into the bar. One of them .spoke Spanish and the one who spoke Spanish ordered
the tequila, so I told him that the price of the tequila was 50 cents. I
brought him the tequila and a little water. The man protested at the price,
thought it was too high, and he made some statement to the effect that he was a
Cuban, but an American citizen and that surely--words to the effect that surely
the owner of this bar must be a capitalist, and we had a little debate about
the price, but that passed over. Then the man who I later learned was Oswald
ordered a lemonade. Now I didn't know what to give him because we don't have
lemonades in the bar. So I asked Orest Pena how I should fix a lemonade. Orest
told me to take a little of this lemon flavoring, squirt in some water, and
charge him 25 cents for the lemonade, and that's the incident surrounding that
situation.
Mr. Liebeler.
You did not know the names of these men at that time, did you?
Mr. Rodriguez.
I didn't know the names of them then; no.
Mr. Liebeler.
Did both of the men speak Spanish or just one of them?
Mr. Rodriguez.
Only the man that appeared to be a Latin or Cuban spoke Spanish. Mr. Liebeler.
So the man who you later thought to be Oswald did not speak Spanish; is that
right?
Mr. Rodriguez.
No; the man I later learned to be Oswald did not speak Spanish. Mr. Liebeler.
What time of the day did this happen?
Mr. Rodriguez.
This happened about 2:30 or between 2:30 and 3 o'clock in the morning. I am not
certain of the exact hour, but that's the best of my recollection. Mr.
Liebeler.
Were either of these men drunk?
Mr. Rodriguez.
The man I later learned to be Oswald had his arm around the Latin-appearing
man, and Oswald appeared to be somewhat drunk.
Mr. Liebeler.
You mentioned previously that someone was a Cuban but an American citizen. Were
you referring to the man that was with Oswald, or Orest Pena, the owner of the
bar?
Mr. Rodriguez.
What I did was, the Latin-appearing man asked me if the owner of the bar was a
Cuban, and I told him that he was a Cuban, but an American citizen. That's the
way that was.
Mr. Liebeler.
Are you able to say the nationality of the man that was with Oswald? Mr.
Rodriguez.
I am not able to state what his exact nationality was, but he appeared to be a
Latin, and that's about as far as I can go. He could have been a Mexican; he
could have been a Cuban, but at this point, I don't recall.
Mr. Liebeler.
What did this man look like?
Mr. Logan.
You want a description of him?
Mr. Liebeler.
Yes; how old?
Mr. Rodriguez.
He was a man about 28 years old, very hairy arms, dark hair on his arms. Mr.
Liebeler.
About how tall was he?
Mr. Logan.
He says he was about my height. That's about 5 feet 8. He is about the same
build of man as I am, short and rather stocky, wide. He was a stocky man with
broad shoulders, about 5 feet 8 inches.
Mr. Liebeler.
Do you know how much he weighed approximately?
Mr. Logan.
He probably hit around 155. He doesn't remember the exact weight, but he would
guess around the same weight as I appear to be.
Mr. Liebeler.
So he weighed about 155 pounds or so?
Mr. Rodriguez.
Yes.
Mr. Liebeler.
Was he taller or shorter than Oswald?
Mr. Rodriguez.
Just a little taller than Oswald.
Mr. Liebeler.
Was he heavier than Oswald or lighter?
Mr. Rodriguez.
He was huskier and appeared to weigh more than Oswald.
Mr. Liebeler.
Do you remember what color his hair was?
Mr. Rodriguez.
He had a high forehead. you might say. He had this back here, the hairline was
right back in here like this [indicating].
Mr. Liebeler.
He had a receding hairline in the front?
Mr. Logan.
He says it's not like yours and mine; it's rather receding on the sides
toward--at the front.
Mr. Liebeler.
Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.) Mr. Liebeler.
Now how tall would you estimate Oswald was?
Mr. Rodriguez.
I didn't get a good look of Oswald standing up straight because Oswald was
drunk and he was more or less in a sagging position most of the time.
Therefore, I-wasn't able to get a good look, but he was a little shorter than 5
feet 8, the height of the other man. He was a little shorter than that, maybe 5
feet 7 or 5 feet 6, but I couldn't tell for sure because Oswald wasn't standing
up too' straight at the time. In fact, Oswald came in and draped over the table
after he sat down.
Mr. Liebeler.
Did Oswald become sick?
Mr. Rodriguez.
He became sick on the table and on the floor.
Mr. Liebeler.
Then did he go in the street and continue being sick?
Mr. Rodriguez.
The Latin-appearing man helped him to the street where he continued to be sick.
Mr. Liebeler.
What was Oswald wearing?
Mr. Rodriguez.
Oswald as I recall, had on a dark pair of pants and a short-sleeved white
shirt.
Mr. Liebeler.
Did he have a tie on?
Mr. Rodriguez.
Oswald had what appeared to be a small bow tie.
Mr. Liebeler.
Are you sure?
Mr. Rodriguez.
But the thing is, Oswald's collar was open and this thing was hanging from one
side of it.
Mr. Liebeler.
It was a clip-on bow tie?
Mr. Rodriguez.
It was a clip-on thing as I recall.
Mr. Liebeler.
When did this happen; what month?
Mr. Rodriguez.
I can't remember exactly, but I know it was just about 1 year ago, and I
presume it was in August.
Mr. Liebler
Did Orest see Oswald?
Mr. Rodriguez.
I didn't see, I don't believe, that Orest saw Oswald. Orest was in the back
part of the bar near the telephone, and Oswald and his friend were sitting at a
table near the cigarette machine, which is in the right-hand side of the front
part of the bar, and Oswald's back was to the place where Orest was at the
time.
Mr. Liebeler.
Do you know Celso Hernandez?
Mr. Rodriguez.
I don't know him. I am acquainted with Bringuier.
Bringuier:
He was with one Mexican at that moment, and when Oswald was drinking the
lemonade, he start to say that, sure, the owner of that place had to be a Cuban
capitalistic, and that he argue about the price of the lemonade. He was telling
that that was too much for a lemonade, and he feel bad at that moment, Oswald
feel bad at that moment--he had some vomits and he went out to the sidewalk to
vomit outside on the sidewalk. These persons here from the Havana Bar told me
that the guy, the Mexican, who was with Oswald, was the same one that one time
the FBI told them that if they will see him, call them immediately because that
was a pro-Communist. I remember that was between August 15 and August 30 was
that period of time. Between the 15th and the 30th the brother of the owner of
the Havana Bar came to my store asking me to call the FBI, because he already
saw one automobile passing by the street with two Mexicans, one of them the one
who had been with Oswald in the bar, and he told me that the FBI told them that
if they will see him, call them immediately because that was a pro-Communist.
He told me that the FBI, one agent from the FBI, had been in the bar and told
them that if they will see those two guy to call them. This person, the brother
of the owner of the bar, he gave to me at that moment the number of the plate
of the automobile, but he didn't get from what State. I called the FBI, because
this person don"t know to speak English. That was the reason why he came to me.
I talked to the person in the FBI. I explained what was going on, but looked
like this person on the telephone didn't know nothing about that matter and he
took the--I believe that he took the notes of what I was telling to him, and
that was all.
Mr. Liebeler.
When did this happen, before the assassination or after?</I> <BR> Mr.
Bringuier.
I called before the assassination, but I didn't know that that was any
connection with Oswald, because they didn't told me at the Havana Bar that one
of them was the one that was with Oswald in the Havana Bar, and learn that
Oswald was one day over there with one Mexican, the brother of the owner told
me, "Yes. You remember those two Mexicans? One of them was the one who was with
Oswald in the bar."
Mr. Liebeler.
Now, tell me approximately when you called the FBI about this.
Mr. Bringuier.
Well, that was between the 15th of August and the 30th of August, because that
was when the owner of the Havana Bar was on vacation. The brother was the one
who was at the front of the business at that moment, and we figure that the
owner of the Havana Bar went on vacation from August 15 to August 30 and that
had to happen in that period of time.
Mr. Liebeler.
As I understand it, some time between August 15 and August 30 the brother of
the owner of the Havana Bar told you that he had seen a man that had been
formerly identified to him by the FBI, and the FBI had asked this man, the
brother of the owner of the bar, to notify them if he saw this man? Mr.
Bringuier.
Yes.
Mr. Liebeler.
And he had seen this man together with another man driving in an automobile
somewhere here in New Orleans? Is that correct?
Mr. Bringuier.
But the question is this: The FBI was according to the information that the
brother of the owner of the Havana Bar told me, the FBI was looking for both
men, not for one.
Mr. Liebeler.
For both of them?
Mr. Bringuier:
For both of them, but just one of them was in the Havana Bar with Oswald, not
both.
Mr. Liebeler.
What is the name of the brother of the owner of the Havana Bar?</I> <BR> Mr.
Bringuier.
Ruperto Pena, and the one who saw Oswald in the bar--that was the one who
served the lemonade to him--Evaristo Rodriguez.
Mr. Liebeler.
Did you report this to the FBI when you talked to them after the assassination?
Mr. Bringuier.
I report this to the Secret Service. I believe so. [Producing document.] I have
here a copy of the letter that I send to the headquarters on November 27, 1963,
informing here to the headquarters the information that I gave to the Secret
Service about the man who was working in the Pap's Supermarket, that he was
going to Delgado Trades School, I believe with the name of Charles, and I have
here that I gave to the Secret Service this information during that day. Mr.
Liebeler.
May I see that?
Mr. Liebeler.
It is in Spanish?
Mr. Bringuier.
Yes.
Mr. Liebeler.
Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.) <I>Did you check any other trip from Oswald to
Mexico previous to the trip 3 weeks before the assassination? Because I think
that you have to know sure that Mr. Stuckey, Bill Stuckey, made another
interview to Oswald, and he had the tape of that interview. I have one tape of
that interview. I think that that interview was made on August 17, 1963, and at
that interview Oswald said, answering to one question, that he had been in
Mexico, and in all the magazines that I am reading they are talking about
Oswald was born in New Orleans, he went to New York, he came back to New
Orleans, he went to the Marines, he went to Russia, he came back, he he went to
Dallas, he came to New Orleans back, he went to Mexico 3 weeks before the
assassination, but I don't read in any newspaper or any magazine talking about
some other trip from Oswald to Mex ico, and if you have that tape, in Oswald's
own voice, he admitted that he had been to Mexico before August 17 Mr.
Liebeler.
Going back briefly to this story of Mr. Pena telling you that he had seen
Oswald in the Havana Bar with this other Mexican, did the FBI ever talk to Mr.
Pena about this? Do you know?
Mr. Bringuier.
I don't know. I know that the owner of the Havana Bar, in my opinion, is a good
person, but he says that always when he talk to the FBI in the bar or something
like that, that he lose customers, because, you see, to those bars sometime
there are people, customers, who don't like to see FBI around there, and he
says that always he lose customers when the FBI start to go over there, and
sometime he become angry and sometime he don't want to talk about. I am sure
that the brother, Ruperto---I am sure that he will tell everything that he
knows.
Mr. Liebeler.
Did you form any opinion as to whether the report that Ruperto made about
Oswald being in the bar was an accurate report?
Mr. Bringuier.
Well, the question is this: Was not only Ruperto told me that Oswald went to
Havana Bar. The one who told me that was Evaristo Rodriguez, and I never saw
Evaristo Rodriguez telling lies or never--Evaristo is quiet person, he is
young, married, but he is quiet. He is not an extrovert, that is, not a---- Mr.
Liebeler.
He wouldn't be likely to make this story up?
Mr. Bringuier.
No; I don't believe so.I remember that when somebody--I believe that was the
Secret Service showed to me the other picture that I tell you, that they
were--they had already identified one and they were trying to identify the
other one. I am sure that there were two, and no doubt about that. Mr.
Liebeler.
In any event, you didn't recognize any of the----
Mr. Bringuier.
No.
Mr. Stuckey.
No; he did not smoke. Again, this was part of my--of the impression of him that
struck me. He seemed like somebody that took very good care of himself, very
prudent, temperate, that sort of person. It was my impression Oswald regarded
himself as living in a world of intellectual inferiors.
Mr. Jenner.
Please elaborate on that. And on what do you base that, please?
Mr. Stuckey.
Well, I base a lot of this on the conversation that we had in Comeaux's Bar.
After all, I had paid some attention to Oswald, nobody else had particularly,
and he seemed to enjoy talking with somebody he didn't regard as a stupid
person, and it was my impression he thought that everybody else he had come in
contact with was rather cloddish, and got the impression that he thought that
he had--his philosophy, the way he felt about things, all this sort of thing,
most people just could not understand this, and only an intelligent or educated
person could. I don't mean to say that there was any arrogance in his manner.
There was just---well, you can spot intelligence, or at least I can, I think,
and this was a man who was intelligent, who was aware that he was intelligent,
and who would like to have an opportunity to express his intelligence--that was
my impression.
Mr. Jenner.
What impression did you obtain of this man with respect to his volatility, that
is, did you get any impression that he was quick to anger?
Mr. Stuckey.
No; very well-disciplined, as a matter of fact. After all, he had been provoked
on several occasions that afternoon by Bringuier and Butler on the show. And,
of course, Bringuier's attempt to convert him to the cause of Revolutionary
Students Directorate was presented in a rather biting way, and Oswald just took
it, and just more or less told him that he wasn't interested, whereas other
people might have gotten a little mad. After all you have to recognize that
Oswald--they were ganging up on him. There were a bunch of us around there.
There were three people who disagreed with him, and he was only one man, and
the fact that he kept his composure with this type of environment indicates
discipline.
jpsh...@my-deja.com
If you have any interest in Oswald's uncle Dutz Murret, this may help:
New Orleans Times-Picayune September 9, 1956 p1
Bookie Suspects Nabbed as Raid Hits Horse Play on Religious St.
Police Saturday [8th] afternoon discovered some horse play on
Religious st. and arrested men named Betz and Furlong.
Sgt. Lawrence Cassanova, Sixth District station, headed the raid
in which several of his men and members of the headquarters special
[vice] squad walked in on what he said was "one of the biggest
handbooks, wire services and recording centers found in recent months."
Arrested for gambling and operating a handbook at 1712 Religious
were Charles F. Murret, 55, 757 French, and Mortimar J. Lacoste, 48,
2805 Bell. Murret was in possession of a special $50 [federal]
gambling stamp.
Others found at the residence and arrested for aiding and abetting
were Gus Betz Sr., Gus Betz Jr., both of 1712 Religious, and John
T. Furlong, 1710 Religious.
Two telephones and several extensions were listed under the name
of Gus Betz Sr., police said.
Murret told police he paid Betz $10 weekly to occupy quarters
and had been at the Religious address about two and one-half months.
Arresting officers found Murret and Lacoste seated at a kitchen
table in the rear of the house. Gus Betz Jr. and Furlong were painting
one of the other rooms. Later Gus Betz Sr. walked in.
Capt. Cassanova said the establishment was "a first-class
operation."
The men were booked at the Sixth District station, and police carted
off a drawerful of handbook paraphernalia from the kitchen table.
While questioning Murret, police were informed that Tattiebogle won
the fourth race at Atlantic City.
<end of article>
Jerry Shinley
Llliibb
>From: Jerry jer...@my-deja.com
>Date: 5/1/00 12:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <8ekakn$com$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
>
>Jim Garrison created a *Legend* about Oswald in New Orleans that has
>been accepted uncritically by conspiracy theorists.
>
Jerry--
Welcome back.
Certainly not Meagher nor Weisberg. \\\
>However, authors who have visited New Orleans and investigated - authors
>like Gus Russo - find that all of the supposed mysterious contacts with
>(supposed) mysterious and (supposed) assassination-related people like
>Dave Ferrie and Guy Banister never occurred.
>
\\\ Would Clark Wilkins agree with you on this? \\\
>First off, Banister and Ferrie were not the sinister persons that
>authors have fabricated and secondly, Oswald didn't know them. Or Shaw.
>
\\\ I would certainly argue that Bannister and Ferrie were "sinister" and
never mind Oswald nor the assassination. Bannister was closely involved with
people who would have been considered lunatic by the contemporaineous George
Wallace. Ferrie molested boys as preference and habit, benefitting
posthumously fromThe Oswald Excuse (ie, intelligent with unconventional ideas =
unfair treatment = demonstrated virtue of the "victim").
Purported call to Dean Andrews--IF factual--would indicate, perhaps,
concern for a buddy, but in _no_ way a murder plot. Ferrie's jaunt to Oswald's
former residence--How did he learn address so quickly? Where were authorities
and the media?--hardly squares with a care free drive to check into $kating
rink oppor$unities. But, again, THIS is an indication of a successful murder
plot? \\\
>Oswald likely knew nobody well in New Orleans save his aunt Lil and her
>family. Cuba and Castro dating back to his days in the Marines.
>
\\\ Curious change in behavior in US. Oswald had real friends in USSR and
Corps. After return, he seems to have avoided those in his own age cohort and
just about everybody save DeMohrenschildt. For that matter, Marina had been
flaming extrovert in USSR, but here... \\\
>In Dallas he joined the FPCC and likely passed out literature.
\\\ Joined New Orleans, right? May have also handed out leaflets on occassion
in Dallas in the fall. \\\
>
>In fact, Oswald wished to defect to Cuba and was engaged in creating a
>dossier which would show him to be a friend of the revolution.
>
\\\ The best that can be said is that he hoped to "roll" the Cubans so quickly
there would be no background check until he was on the island. If we are to
take Nechiporenko as a guide, the predictable consequences of that delayed
(but certain) check would have quite aversive. Success would require that the
most important Cuban mission in the hemisphere be controlled by twits and FO
Havana suffer the same ill--not to mention DGI in both places. And let nothing
be said of the regular stream of embassy callers "dispatched" by Scott's
station. \\\
>In fact, when he needed a little help passing out literature - and when
>he knew the TV cameras would be rolling - he hired a few guys from the
>local unemployment office.
>
\\\ DeMohrenshildt's (already in 1964) former son-in-law remarked on Oswald's
penurious garb when known to him with the well dressed LHO handing out
leaflets. He speculated that Oswald must have been given money. Note that Lee
the Innocent and his associates are all dressed in the same fashion, which
would make random selection at the local unemployment office unlikely.
Like Martello of NOPD, Gary Taylor thought of Oswald as anything but violent.
He remarked that Oswald would sometimes go days without washing, rather
curiously reminiscent of Perry Russo's version of Oswald as Ferrie's roomie.
Alas for disinterested crediblity, Taylor recounted that DeMohrenschildt had
remarked to him on the superiority of the Soviet system. \\\
>That's all there was to it.
>
\\\ Could you offer another example of a post office box subscriber to
MILITANT and WORKER not under mail watch? Could you ask Hosty how this choice
of reading material--plus correspondence with Soviet embassy and receipt of
Soviet publications--did not attract attention? And, of course, that goes not
_just_ for the FBI...
Lone shootist? MMMMmmmaybe. But never, ever "simple."
Bill B \\\
>Jerry
Eric Chomko
: A request from the group: I'd be interested in hearing opinions about the
: significance of Oswald's life in New Orleans, some about his early life but
: particularly the mysterious weeks in late spring/early summer 63 when he
: started his FPCC shenanigans.
I find it interesting that one of the key police officials (sheriff?) in
NO during the time of LHO's arrest which resulted in getting into a TV
debate was none other than the father (Hyde) of Ruth Paine, the lady
taking care of Marina and child back in Dallas at that time. That type of
coincidence should be documented.
Check out the Shaw trial website for Ruth Paine's testimony at:
http://www4.50megs.com/reitzes/shawtest.html
Pretty cool customer. And why did Oliver Stone have to use pseudonyms for
the Paines/Hyde in his film "JFK"?
: I am a freelance producer in New Orleans, and am pitching the local PBS station
: to do a documentary on this topic. When offering your response, keep in mind
: that the people I would have to convince--"the suits"--are influenced by how
: the story fits in a historical, even academic context (although don't feel
: limited by this constraint; for example, I certainly plan to explore the Adele
: Edisen story, and I have a particular interest in anecdotal and speculative
: material). But these powers-that-be are naturally skeptical about conspiracy
: theories, so we have to educate them.
Dig into who Mr. Hyde was, and if you could find out if his
daughter visited her
dad while she and Marina went to NO that summer. Ruth Paine was an awfully
good friend to the Oswalds. Too friendly to have not been compensated in
some manner, IMO.
Also the Murrets, Who are they? I know they are Oswald's cousins in NO,
but there
exists surprising little about them other than the uncle was a bookie.
Eric
: Thanks in advance,
: Stephen Tyler
Eric Chomko
: Jim Garrison created a *Legend* about Oswald in New Orleans that has
: been accepted uncritically by conspiracy theorists.
: However, authors who have visited New Orleans and investigated - authors
: like Gus Russo - find that all of the supposed mysterious contacts with
: (supposed) mysterious and (supposed) assassination-related people like
: Dave Ferrie and Guy Banister never occurred.
: First off, Banister and Ferrie were not the sinister persons that
: authors have fabricated and secondly, Oswald didn't know them. Or Shaw.
: Oswald likely knew nobody well in New Orleans save his aunt Lil and her
: family. Cuba and Castro dating back to his days in the Marines.
: In Dallas he joined the FPCC and likely passed out literature.
LHO went all the wat to NO to had out leaflets to appear friendly to the
revolution in order to redefect? Why go all the way to NO for that? Why
not create the dossier in Dallas?
: In fact, Oswald wished to defect to Cuba and was engaged in creating a
: dossier which would show him to be a friend of the revolution.
: In fact, when he needed a little help passing out literature - and when
: he knew the TV cameras would be rolling - he hired a few guys from the
: local unemployment office.
: That's all there was to it.
You cannot explain away how LHO got funds to stay in NO and had out
leaflets and then to go to MC. He went there to find work. Why return to
Dallas after handing out leaflets and then go to MC? It looks exactly like
he was setup. Who's footing the bill, Jerry?
Eric
: In article <20000501112635...@ng-cn1.aol.com>,
: emma...@aol.com (Emmatyler) wrote:
: > A request from the group: I'd be interested in hearing opinions about
: the
: > significance of Oswald's life in New Orleans, some about his early
: life but
: > particularly the mysterious weeks in late spring/early summer 63 when
: he
: > started his FPCC shenanigans.
: >
: > I am a freelance producer in New Orleans, and am pitching the local
: PBS station
: > to do a documentary on this topic. When offering your response, keep
: in mind
: > that the people I would have to convince--"the suits"--are influenced
: by how
: > the story fits in a historical, even academic context (although don't
: feel
: > limited by this constraint; for example, I certainly plan to explore
: the Adele
: > Edisen story, and I have a particular interest in anecdotal and
: speculative
: > material). But these powers-that-be are naturally skeptical about
: conspiracy
: > theories, so we have to educate them.
: >
: > Thanks in advance,
: > Stephen Tyler
: >
: >
: Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
: Before you buy.
jerrymac
I saw you documentary in November 1993 on WNYC public TV. Real good job.
One thing that interests me about NO is Alba and the Crescent City Garage.
I have info from someone who claims to be a long-time resident of NO that
Alba operated an indoor shooting range at the CCG and that it was managed by
one Larry Michel (deceased). I've never heard this from anyone else, and
was wondering if you knew anything about this. And if there was an indoor
range, was it public???
Since some Feds parked at the CCG, they might have caught wind of Alba's
gun-related activities and were somewhat concerned. I think they might have
set LHO up at Reilly's to give him proximity to the CCG, but his real job
was to snoop around Alba's garage and find out what was going on with the
guns. It would help to explain LHO's questioning Alba about buying and
sporterizing guns. And why LHO was always there and hardly ever at "work".
Take Care & Good Luck,
jerrymac
"Emmatyler" <emma...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000501112635...@ng-cn1.aol.com...
Martin Shackelford
believer that Oswald did it alone, also believes that Oswald and Ferrie
were very close, partly based on his own interviews with witnesses,
including one in the Oswald-Ferrie CAP photo.
Martin
--
Martin Shackelford
"You're going to find that many of the truths we
cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."
-Obi-Wan Kenobi
"You must unlearn what you have learned." --Yoda
Martin Shackelford
It fits in with some other information I've learned over the past year.
Martin
jerrymac wrote:
--
Magic Bullet
Bookies and gamblers named Betz and Furlong being busted on Religious St by
a cop named Cassanova??? And Tattiebogle wins the fourth??? This isn't from
the Times-Picayune - it's a Damon Runyon novel!
greg
<jpsh...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8ekiaa$lqr$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <20000501112635...@ng-cn1.aol.com>,
> emma...@aol.com (Emmatyler) wrote:
art guerrilla
moldy jelly fermented-
>First off, Banister and Ferrie were not the sinister persons that
>authors have fabricated and secondly, Oswald didn't know them. Or Shaw.
hee hee hee
>Oswald likely knew nobody well in New Orleans save his aunt Lil and her
>family
ha ha ha
>In Dallas he joined the FPCC and likely passed out literature.
ho ho ho
>That's all there was to it.
ak ak ak
this is classic jelly ver 3-4, what
happened to vers 5 & 6?
...did they move on to a more advanced
disinfo class/lab?
ann peanut-butter archy
eof
Atlasrecrd
>One thing that interests me about NO is Alba and the Crescent City Garage.
>I have info from someone who claims to be a long-time resident of NO that
>Alba operated an indoor shooting range at the CCG and that it was managed
>by
>one Larry Michel (deceased).
Hmmm. Well, I paid a visit to Alba's garage when I was in New Orleans a couple
months ago and took some pics. The garage is next door to Reily and from the
front looks like the garage could be a 2 story building; but much of it appears
to be a facade. Judging by the pictures I took of the back, it is really only
the first level that could hold cars. There is one section of the 2nd floor,
about 20 feet or so wide that does actually go from front to back, creating
something of a second floor; but there is no way cars could get up there.
Indeed, when I went into the garage (which is still run by Alba) all the cars
appeared to be being parked on the ground floor. Alba's office is also on the
ground floor. In the back there is also a driveway for the cars to exit. It is
my understanding that Oswald used this to come in for his visits.
jpsh...@my-deja.com
"Magic Bullet" <magic...@octa4.net.au> wrote:
> Jerry,
>
> Bookies and gamblers named Betz and Furlong being busted on Religious
St by
> a cop named Cassanova??? And Tattiebogle wins the fourth??? This
isn't from
> the Times-Picayune - it's a Damon Runyon novel!
> greg
>
I think that's why the story made the front page, instead of being
buried in the classifieds.
Llliibb
That famous CAP picture... There was a time when that picture would have been
worth a lot of money. And/or an important contribution to the national good.
Yet, it did not surface until decades later. Could you comment on why?
For that matter, Tannenbaum and the purported film of Oswald at an exile
training camp. No one else has ever reported seeing this, right? Is this not
sufficient reason to regard this with, uh, _acute_ skepticism?
Bill B
>Subject: Re: Group Consensus--LHO in N.O.
>From: Martin Shackelford msh...@concentric.net
>Date: 5/1/00 10:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <390E3894...@concentric.net>
>
>Jim Canal, author of the new book Silencing the Lone Assassin, and a
>believer that Oswald did it alone, also believes that Oswald and Ferrie
>were very close, partly based on his own interviews with witnesses,
>including one in the Oswald-Ferrie CAP photo.
>
>Martin
joez...@my-deja.com
Here she didn't speak English all that well, did she, especially at
first? And Lee was certainly discouraging his wife's learning any.
>
> >In Dallas he joined the FPCC and likely passed out literature.
>
> \\\ Joined New Orleans, right? May have also handed out leaflets on
occassion
> in Dallas in the fall. \\\
> >
> >In fact, Oswald wished to defect to Cuba and was engaged in creating
a
> >dossier which would show him to be a friend of the revolution.
> >
> \\\ The best that can be said is that he hoped to "roll" the Cubans
so quickly
> there would be no background check until he was on the island. If we
are to
> take Nechiporenko as a guide, the predictable consequences of that
delayed
> (but certain) check would have quite aversive.
Except by that time, Oswald would have gone as a friend of the
revolution, having killed Walker.
> Success would require that the
> most important Cuban mission in the hemisphere be controlled by twits
and FO
> Havana suffer the same ill--not to mention DGI in both places. And
let nothing
> be said of the regular stream of embassy callers "dispatched" by
Scott's
> station. \\\
>
> >In fact, when he needed a little help passing out literature - and
when
> >he knew the TV cameras would be rolling - he hired a few guys from
the
> >local unemployment office.
> >
> \\\ DeMohrenshildt's (already in 1964) former son-in-law remarked on
Oswald's
> penurious garb when known to him with the well dressed LHO handing out
> leaflets. He speculated that Oswald must have been given money.
Note that Lee
> the Innocent and his associates are all dressed in the same fashion,
which
> would make random selection at the local unemployment office
unlikely.
>
Don't think the conclusion you've drawn is justified. Look at film or
photos of baseball crowds, for instance, from that era. Most men are in
suits, ties, and hats. For a baseball game! I dare say you won't find
one man in a hundred dressing that way today at a baseball game. Don't
compare modern fashion dress (or, more accurately, lack of it), with
the 1963 expected garb.
Surely going to the local unemployment office and establishing you were
ready, willing and able to work meant dressing in white shirt, tie, and
dress pants, at the very least. This being New Orleans in the summer,
the jacket was probably not a requirement.
So the men being 'dressed alike' (business-like) is not beyond the
realm of understanding. *Especially* if they came from the unemployment
office!
--
"We're really in nut country now, Toto."
Eric Chomko
: moldy jelly fermented-
: >First off, Banister and Ferrie were not the sinister persons that
: >authors have fabricated and secondly, Oswald didn't know them. Or Shaw.
: hee hee hee
: >Oswald likely knew nobody well in New Orleans save his aunt Lil and her
: >family
: ha ha ha
: >In Dallas he joined the FPCC and likely passed out literature.
: ho ho ho
: >That's all there was to it.
: ak ak ak
: this is classic jelly ver 3-4, what
: happened to vers 5 & 6?
: ...did they move on to a more advanced
: disinfo class/lab?
One wonders how Jerry tricks himself in to thinking that his lies are for
our own good.
Eric
: ann peanut-butter archy
: eof
Jerry
If you don't know why Oswald went to New Orleans then you need to spend
a little more time with the WCR and 26 volumes.
Why not learn a little before you open your mouth and reveal your
ignorance?
Jerry
In article <8eknuq$r...@nnrp3.farm.idt.net>,
Eric Chomko <cho...@IDT.NET> wrote:
> Jerry <jer...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> : Jim Garrison created a *Legend* about Oswald in New Orleans that has
> : been accepted uncritically by conspiracy theorists.
>
> : However, authors who have visited New Orleans and investigated -
authors
> : like Gus Russo - find that all of the supposed mysterious contacts
with
> : (supposed) mysterious and (supposed) assassination-related people
like
> : Dave Ferrie and Guy Banister never occurred.
>
> : First off, Banister and Ferrie were not the sinister persons that
> : authors have fabricated and secondly, Oswald didn't know them. Or
Shaw.
>
> : Oswald likely knew nobody well in New Orleans save his aunt Lil and
her
> : family. Cuba and Castro dating back to his days in the Marines.
>
> : In Dallas he joined the FPCC and likely passed out literature.
>
> LHO went all the wat to NO to had out leaflets to appear friendly to
the
> revolution in order to redefect? Why go all the way to NO for that?
Why
> not create the dossier in Dallas?
>
> : In fact, Oswald wished to defect to Cuba and was engaged in
creating a
> : dossier which would show him to be a friend of the revolution.
>
> : In fact, when he needed a little help passing out literature - and
when
> : he knew the TV cameras would be rolling - he hired a few guys from
the
> : local unemployment office.
>
> : That's all there was to it.
>
> You cannot explain away how LHO got funds to stay in NO and had out
> leaflets and then to go to MC. He went there to find work. Why return
to
> Dallas after handing out leaflets and then go to MC? It looks exactly
like
> he was setup. Who's footing the bill, Jerry?
>
> Eric
>
> : In article <20000501112635...@ng-cn1.aol.com>,
Jerry
So, you're espousing the entire Canal package??
Or just the parts you fit in with your own pet theories?
This is the "pick and choose" method of research, Martin.
Hey, have you been reading about the Miami Cubans? Tell me if they get
this upset about little Elian, how would they have reacted if JFK had
tried to "normalize" relations with Castro/Cuba?
And tell me if they seem to be the kind of people you'd choose to
conspire with - do you find them stable, trustworthy, reliable people?
You kill the president and then just shake hands and walk away?
Jerry
In article <390E3894...@concentric.net>,
Martin Shackelford <msh...@concentric.net> wrote:
> Jim Canal, author of the new book Silencing the Lone Assassin, and a
> believer that Oswald did it alone, also believes that Oswald and
Ferrie
> were very close, partly based on his own interviews with witnesses,
> including one in the Oswald-Ferrie CAP photo.
>
> Martin
> --
> Martin Shackelford
>
> "You're going to find that many of the truths we
> cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."
> -Obi-Wan Kenobi
>
> "You must unlearn what you have learned." --Yoda
>
>
joez...@my-deja.com
Eric Chomko <cho...@IDT.NET> wrote:
> Jerry <jer...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> : Jim Garrison created a *Legend* about Oswald in New Orleans that has
> : been accepted uncritically by conspiracy theorists.
>
> : However, authors who have visited New Orleans and investigated -
authors
> : like Gus Russo - find that all of the supposed mysterious contacts
with
> : (supposed) mysterious and (supposed) assassination-related people
like
> : Dave Ferrie and Guy Banister never occurred.
>
> : First off, Banister and Ferrie were not the sinister persons that
> : authors have fabricated and secondly, Oswald didn't know them. Or
Shaw.
>
> : Oswald likely knew nobody well in New Orleans save his aunt Lil and
her
> : family. Cuba and Castro dating back to his days in the Marines.
>
> : In Dallas he joined the FPCC and likely passed out literature.
>
> LHO went all the wat to NO to had out leaflets to appear friendly to
the
> revolution in order to redefect? Why go all the way to NO for that?
Why
> not create the dossier in Dallas?
Because Walker was shot at in Dallas. The last thing Oswald would want
to do was raise the public's awareness of himself as a Pro-Castro
militant in the months just after an anti-Castro militant had been shot
at. In short, Oswald was a nut, not a moron.
>
> : In fact, Oswald wished to defect to Cuba and was engaged in
creating a
> : dossier which would show him to be a friend of the revolution.
>
> : In fact, when he needed a little help passing out literature - and
when
> : he knew the TV cameras would be rolling - he hired a few guys from
the
> : local unemployment office.
>
> : That's all there was to it.
>
> You cannot explain away how LHO got funds to stay in NO and had out
> leaflets and then to go to MC.
Ever hear of the unemployment office? Oswald was collecting
unemployment the entire summer.
> : Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> : Before you buy.
>
--
"We're really in nut country now, Toto."
Atlasrecrd
>Because Walker was shot at in Dallas. The last thing Oswald would want
>to do was raise the public's awareness of himself as a Pro-Castro
>militant in the months just after an anti-Castro militant had been shot
>at.
Without agreeing or disagreeing with the original thread point, I will say
this:
No sale, Joe. You'll have to come up with a better rebuttal... Why Oswald was
loud as hell in N.O. and so quiet in Dallas.
Eric Chomko
: Eric,
: If you don't know why Oswald went to New Orleans then you need to spend
: a little more time with the WCR and 26 volumes.
I am aware that LHO went to NO.
: Why not learn a little before you open your mouth and reveal your
: ignorance?
But tell me Jerry, did Ruth Paine see her father, Mr. Hyde, while she went
there with Marina that summer?
Eric
Eric Chomko
: In article <8eknuq$r...@nnrp3.farm.idt.net>,
: Eric Chomko <cho...@IDT.NET> wrote:
[...]
: > LHO went all the wat to NO to had out leaflets to appear friendly to
: the
: > revolution in order to redefect? Why go all the way to NO for that?
: Why
: > not create the dossier in Dallas?
: Because Walker was shot at in Dallas. The last thing Oswald would want
: to do was raise the public's awareness of himself as a Pro-Castro
: militant in the months just after an anti-Castro militant had been shot
: at. In short, Oswald was a nut, not a moron.
No, a patsy made out to look like a nut.
: > You cannot explain away how LHO got funds to stay in NO and had out
: > leaflets and then to go to MC.
: Ever hear of the unemployment office? Oswald was collecting
: unemployment the entire summer.
It still does not explain going to Mexico City.
Eric
joez...@my-deja.com
atlas...@aol.com (Atlasrecrd) wrote:
> > joez...@my-deja.com
>
> >Because Walker was shot at in Dallas. The last thing Oswald would
want
> >to do was raise the public's awareness of himself as a Pro-Castro
> >militant in the months just after an anti-Castro militant had been
shot
> >at.
>
will say
> this:
>
> No sale, Joe. You'll have to come up with a better rebuttal... Why
Oswald was
> loud as hell in N.O. and so quiet in Dallas.
>
For the reason stated above. He didn't mind at all being linked
publicly with New Orleans. He avoided entirely connecting himself to
Dallas. Look at the contents of his wallet after his arrest. Look at
the statement he gave the FBI. He avoided any mention of Dallas
entirely. Your view is that is just a coincidence, having nothing to do
with the Walker shooting?
What other activities in Dallas before the summer of 1963 would he wish
to hide?
joez...@my-deja.com
Eric Chomko <cho...@IDT.NET> wrote:
> joez...@my-deja.com wrote:
> : In article <8eknuq$r...@nnrp3.farm.idt.net>,
> : Eric Chomko <cho...@IDT.NET> wrote:
> [...]
> : > LHO went all the wat to NO to had out leaflets to appear friendly
to
> : the
> : > revolution in order to redefect? Why go all the way to NO for
that?
> : Why
> : > not create the dossier in Dallas?
>
want
> : to do was raise the public's awareness of himself as a Pro-Castro
> : militant in the months just after an anti-Castro militant had been
shot
>
> No, a patsy made out to look like a nut.
Your reply avoids the main thrust of my argument entirely.
>
> : > You cannot explain away how LHO got funds to stay in NO and had
out
> : > leaflets and then to go to MC.
>
> : Ever hear of the unemployment office? Oswald was collecting
> : unemployment the entire summer.
>
> It still does not explain going to Mexico City.
>
What do you need explained? Your question, I thought, concerned the
source of his funds for the activities that summer.
> Eric
Clark
"Llliibb" <lll...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000501155742...@ng-fq1.aol.com...
> >Subject: Re: Group Consensus--LHO in N.O.
> >From: Jerry jer...@my-deja.com
> >Date: 5/1/00 12:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time
> >Message-id: <8ekakn$com$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
> >
> >Jim Garrison created a *Legend* about Oswald in New Orleans that has
> >been accepted uncritically by conspiracy theorists.
> >
> \\\
>
> Jerry--
>
> Welcome back.
>
> Certainly not Meagher nor Weisberg. \\\
>
> >However, authors who have visited New Orleans and investigated - authors
> >like Gus Russo - find that all of the supposed mysterious contacts with
> >(supposed) mysterious and (supposed) assassination-related people like
> >Dave Ferrie and Guy Banister never occurred.
> >
> \\\ Would Clark Wilkins agree with you on this? \\\
Well! Here I "R" to answer that. I'm not particularly fond of Gus Russo as
a reliable source of information so I don't think citing Russo helps Jerry's
case any. OTOH, I do not consider David Ferrie to be an "assassination
related" person of any interest to the JFK case. With the possible
exception of Ferrie's having called on Oswald's landlady after the
assassination in search of his library card, I would say there was no reason
to believe that Oswald and Ferrie had seen each other since their CAP days.
I am 100% certain that Guy Banister knew Oswald. What I do not know is if
Oswald knew Banister. Either way, I do not connect Banister with JFK's
assassination (BTW, does anybody know the correct spelling of his last name?
Does it have two '"n's" or one? I've seen it both ways).
>
> >First off, Banister and Ferrie were not the sinister persons that
> >authors have fabricated and secondly, Oswald didn't know them. Or Shaw.
> >
> \\\ I would certainly argue that Bannister and Ferrie were "sinister" and
> never mind Oswald nor the assassination. Bannister was closely involved
with
> people who would have been considered lunatic by the contemporaineous
George
> Wallace. Ferrie molested boys as preference and habit, benefitting
> posthumously fromThe Oswald Excuse (ie, intelligent with unconventional
ideas =
> unfair treatment = demonstrated virtue of the "victim").
>
I would say that both Ferrie's and Banister's relationship with Carlos
Marcello was not an innocent one.
> Purported call to Dean Andrews--IF factual--would indicate, perhaps,
> concern for a buddy, but in _no_ way a murder plot.
Dean Andrews claims have always been a problem. OTOH, he is a self admitted
liar.
>Ferrie's jaunt to Oswald's
> former residence--How did he learn address so quickly?
Agreed.
And why is he there at all? Perhaps Jerry can tell us why Ferrie would go
in search of his library card from someone he knows can't have it if they
aren't acquainted?
> Where were authorities
> and the media?--hardly squares with a care free drive to check into
$kating
> rink oppor$unities. But, again, THIS is an indication of a successful
murder
> plot? \\\
>
I don't think Ferrie knew of a plot to kill JFK.
> >Oswald likely knew nobody well in New Orleans save his aunt Lil and her
> >family. Cuba and Castro dating back to his days in the Marines.
> >
> \\\ Curious change in behavior in US. Oswald had real friends in USSR
and
> Corps. After return, he seems to have avoided those in his own age cohort
and
> just about everybody save DeMohrenschildt. For that matter, Marina had
been
> flaming extrovert in USSR, but here... \\\
>
> >In Dallas he joined the FPCC and likely passed out literature.
>
> \\\ Joined New Orleans, right? May have also handed out leaflets on
occassion
> in Dallas in the fall. \\\
There was a report of Oswald wearing a "Viva Fidel" placard around his neck
in Dallas. Does anybody who reported this?
> >
> >In fact, Oswald wished to defect to Cuba and was engaged in creating a
> >dossier which would show him to be a friend of the revolution.
> >
> \\\ The best that can be said is that he hoped to "roll" the Cubans so
quickly
> there would be no background check until he was on the island. If we are
to
> take Nechiporenko as a guide, the predictable consequences of that
delayed
> (but certain) check would have quite aversive. Success would require that
the
> most important Cuban mission in the hemisphere be controlled by twits and
FO
> Havana suffer the same ill--not to mention DGI in both places. And let
nothing
> be said of the regular stream of embassy callers "dispatched" by Scott's
> station. \\\
>
Granted, Oswald had an uphill battle ahead of him when he left for Mexico.
However, I agree with Jerry that Oswald was preparing a resume for himself
to present the Cubans while he was living in NO.
That does not mean that Oswald actually expected to be accepted. When
Oswald previously defected to the USSR, he studied Russian first.
Logically, if Oswald expected to be in Cuba in October '63, he should have
been studying Spanish in anticipation. There is some indication he
considered such lessons in NO but never took them. This is odd considering
he was unemployed and had plenty of time in which to study. Yet he didn't
even check out a Spanish language book from the city library. Next, if
Oswald thought he might be accepted by the Cubans, it would certainly help
if he had brought enough money to purchase a ticket for a flight to Havana
from Mexico City. Yet he had so little money he had to ask the Russians if
they would pay his way. He couldn't even afford to stay long enough to wait
for an answer from the Soviets, buying a bus ticket for Dallas instead.
Finally, if Oswald really wanted to get to Cuba, why didn't he highjack a
plane? He had his pistol and had discussed this possibility with Marina.
In the end, while I see evidence of Oswald planning to travel from NO to
Mexico in order to apply for a Cuban visa, I see no evidence that he
actually planned to travel from Mexico to Cuba if he had gotten it. Perhaps
this is why he never told Marina of his plans?
> >In fact, when he needed a little help passing out literature - and when
> >he knew the TV cameras would be rolling - he hired a few guys from the
> >local unemployment office.
> >
> \\\ DeMohrenshildt's (already in 1964) former son-in-law remarked on
Oswald's
> penurious garb when known to him with the well dressed LHO handing out
> leaflets. He speculated that Oswald must have been given money. Note
that Lee
> the Innocent and his associates are all dressed in the same fashion, which
> would make random selection at the local unemployment office unlikely.
>
> Like Martello of NOPD, Gary Taylor thought of Oswald as anything but
violent.
> He remarked that Oswald would sometimes go days without washing, rather
> curiously reminiscent of Perry Russo's version of Oswald as Ferrie's
roomie.
> Alas for disinterested crediblity, Taylor recounted that DeMohrenschildt
had
> remarked to him on the superiority of the Soviet system. \\\
>
> >That's all there was to it.
That I doubt. Jerry has slid past all the good stuff. Jerry should explain
for us dummies why:
1) Oswald asked to FBI Agent Quigely when arrested?
2) Why the "Hidell" card was not found in Oswald's wallet by the NO police?
3) Why Oswald was carrying Russian phone numbers on his person when
arrested?
After that, Jerry should explain to us, in the proper sequence of events
how:
1) Stuckey invited Oswald to appear on his radio show
2) Stuckey obtained his station manager's permission to put him on
3) Stuckey obtained Bringuier as a debating partner for Oswald
4) Stuckey obtained ED Butler as a debating partner
5) Stuckey obtained INCA to sponsor the debate
6) Stuckey obtained Oswald's FBI file
7) Butler obtained the HUAC file on Oswald
8) Stuckey confirmed to Oswald that the show was a "go"
Please begin with Sunday morning, Jerry, just before the 8/22/63 debate.
I am interested in seeing how Jerry does as I respect both his knowledge and
his intelligence on this subject.
Just curious.
::Clark::
Llliibb
>
>Here she didn't speak English all that well, did she, especially at
>first? And Lee was certainly discouraging his wife's learning any.
>
People pay lots of attention to him and short. She had opportunity to
practice English not merely with Lee, but several friends back in Minsk. No
evidence that she did so. The admittedly hostile James Martin later related
that her English was much better than she wished to acknowledge, using the old
diplomat's trick of unnecessary translation to formulate an answer.
Granted an infant and a small budget would slow down anyone. But in
Minsk, she enjoyed dancing and socializing. He like symphony and theatre. Am
at a loss to recall the pair here going to movie, the zoo--_anything_. Nor was
_this_ (apparently) a complaint of hers.
>
>>
>> >In Dallas he joined the FPCC and likely passed out literature.
>>
>> \\\ Joined New Orleans, right? May have also handed out leaflets on
>occassion
>> in Dallas in the fall. \\\
>> >
>> >In fact, Oswald wished to defect to Cuba and was engaged in creating
>a
>> >dossier which would show him to be a friend of the revolution.
>> >
>> \\\ The best that can be said is that he hoped to "roll" the Cubans
>so quickly
>> there would be no background check until he was on the island. If we
>are to
>> take Nechiporenko as a guide, the predictable consequences of that
>delayed
>> (but certain) check would have quite aversive.
>
>Except by that time, Oswald would have gone as a friend of the
>revolution, having killed Walker.
>
Even the most ardent of the _Fideistas_ would have been reluctant to
invite over an assassin, thus establishing _cassus belli_. (Sp?) Walker was
not the cause of Havana's difficulties. More to the point, a "walk in" so
claiming would be thrown out into the street, as a damn nut or a provocateur.
Back then I was Memphis boy and people there were not overfond of suits
for "walking around." Trade Mart, of course, would have attracted a more
"toney" than usual set of people. Maybe New Orleans was more formal, but would
have been even more humid. Taylor was emphasizing that he had never seen
Oswald so dressed and that the clothes seemed a fine fit. And the others
match. The others who have disppeared not just from NOPD and the Cubans...
I like non-random selection of associates. When dark pants, tie, and
white shirt is established as standard at unemployment office, I will concede.
Bill B
Llliibb
comments on the difficulties of rapid without the linguistic embellishments.
And he was later hired by Marcello, who could certainly afford competent legal
help.
>
>>Ferrie's jaunt to Oswald's
>> former residence--How did he learn address so quickly?
>
>Agreed.
>And why is he there at all? Perhaps Jerry can tell us why Ferrie would go
>in search of his library card from someone he knows can't have it if they
>aren't acquainted?
Trying to establish his whereabouts with disinterested party? Ferrie must
have known of his memorable appearance and makes a fuss besides. But he could
have done that anywhere...
>
>> Where were authorities
>> and the media?--hardly squares with a care free drive to check into
>$kating
>> rink oppor$unities. But, again, THIS is an indication of a successful
>murder
>> plot? \\\
>>
>
>I don't think Ferrie knew of a plot to kill JFK.
>
>> >Oswald likely knew nobody well in New Orleans save his aunt Lil and her
>> >family. Cuba and Castro dating back to his days in the Marines.
>> >
>> \\\ Curious change in behavior in US. Oswald had real friends in USSR
>and
>> Corps. After return, he seems to have avoided those in his own age cohort
>and
>> just about everybody save DeMohrenschildt. For that matter, Marina had
>been
>> flaming extrovert in USSR, but here... \\\
>>
>> >In Dallas he joined the FPCC and likely passed out literature.
>>
>> \\\ Joined New Orleans, right? May have also handed out leaflets on
>occassion
>> in Dallas in the fall. \\\
>
>There was a report of Oswald wearing a "Viva Fidel" placard around his neck
>in Dallas. Does anybody who reported this?
>
If you have marvelous Albert Newman book, pages 327 and 328. If not holler.
As you will recall, I am skeptical of Oswald with pistol in his visit to
Soviet embassy. However, Nechiporenko reports that Mexican authorities were
notified about this. If our boy were aware of this it would explain quick
departure. Would not explain why he think DC Soviets would be ignorant of this
nor how US intel could have missed such a message.
>1) Oswald asked to FBI Agent Quigely when arrested? [[ And why this least
curious of all agents did not run Oswald's military ID number.--B ]]
>2) Why the "Hidell" card was not found in Oswald's wallet by the NO police?
[[ ?--B ]]
>3) Why Oswald was carrying Russian phone numbers on his person when
>arrested? \\\ Mental case confusing New Orleans and Minsk? \\\
>
>After that, Jerry should explain to us, in the proper sequence of events
>how:
>
>1) Stuckey invited Oswald to appear on his radio show
>2) Stuckey obtained his station manager's permission to put him on
>3) Stuckey obtained Bringuier as a debating partner for Oswald
>4) Stuckey obtained ED Butler as a debating partner
>5) Stuckey obtained INCA to sponsor the debate
>6) Stuckey obtained Oswald's FBI file
>7) Butler obtained the HUAC file on Oswald
>8) Stuckey confirmed to Oswald that the show was a "go"
>
And how all this was done without a clue to local FBI.
Bill B
Atlasrecrd
>He avoided any mention of Dallas
>entirely. Your view is that is just a coincidence, having nothing to do
>with the Walker shooting?
I'm sorry dude, but you're not making any sense.
Oswald was never a suspect in the Walker shooting until after being arrested
for the JFK murder. FBI knew about Oswald when Walker was shot at. Neither they
nor the DPD made a connection at that time.
IOW, by the time he returned to Dallas in October, the Walker incident had
been relegated to the status of unsolved crank.
Martin Shackelford
The CAP photo surfaced when someone contacted CAP members to see
what they had. Many other people may have important evidenct without
realizing it. Most people don't follow this case, and wouldn't know most
evidence on sight.
Tanenbaum has reported seeing the film. Not sure about others.
Martin Shackelford
thesis.
Llliibb
>
Martin--
I am certainly unaware of anyone else with HSCA who claimed to have seen the
film--including Groden. Heck of a thing to forget the orgin of and should have
been a real "wow" when funding came up. I would asume that, at the least,
stills would have been made of Lee's companions and circulated for attempted
ID.
Bill B
joez...@my-deja.com
atlas...@aol.com (Atlasrecrd) wrote:
> > joez...@my-deja.com
>
> >He avoided any mention of Dallas
> >entirely. Your view is that is just a coincidence, having nothing to
do
> >with the Walker shooting?
>
> I'm sorry dude, but you're not making any sense.
> Oswald was never a suspect in the Walker shooting until after being
arrested
> for the JFK murder.
Yes, we know that. But did Oswald? And could he afford to take that
chance, by starting to agitate for Cuba in Dallas so quickly after the
Walker shooting? I doubt he would. He was a nut, not a moron.
>FBI knew about Oswald when Walker was shot at.
But in what capacity? And in Oswald's N.O. FBI interview, doesn't he
claim to have been in N.O. for more than just a few months?
>Neither they
> nor the DPD made a connection at that time.
>
Yes, exactly. And having flown below the radar, so to speak, could
Oswald risk raising his visibility in Dallas so quickly after the April
10, 1963 Walker shooting by agitating for Castro that summer?
I say a smarter move would be to transfer those operations elsewhere.
Anyone remembering him as Pro-Castro (Walker was anti-Castro, of
course) would then connect him with N.O., not Dallas.
> IOW, by the time he returned to Dallas in October, the Walker
incident had
> been relegated to the status of unsolved crank.
>
Yes, and he didn't do any agitating when he got back, either, to stir
up those memories, did he?
Eric Chomko
: In article <8epft0$t...@nnrp3.farm.idt.net>,
: Eric Chomko <cho...@IDT.NET> wrote:
[...]
: > No, a patsy made out to look like a nut.
: Your reply avoids the main thrust of my argument entirely.
It's not my fault that you are easily distracted. Maybe thats why you
ended up as a lone nutter in the first place.
: > : > You cannot explain away how LHO got funds to stay in NO and had
: out
: > : > leaflets and then to go to MC.
: >
: > : Ever hear of the unemployment office? Oswald was collecting
: > : unemployment the entire summer.
: >
: > It still does not explain going to Mexico City.
: What do you need explained? Your question, I thought, concerned the
: source of his funds for the activities that summer.
Why go to Mexico City if you are living on unemployment? Why leave Dallas
to go to New Orleans if you are unemeployment? And why got to New Orleans
to hand out pro-Castro leaflets if you are unemploymed?
Eric
Martin Shackelford
A second witness reports having seen the film mentioned by Tanenbaum, or
one similar to it, but hasn't yet gone public.
Martin Shackelford
at the Georgetown University Library in a collection there.
I agree that the film should have been released. You'll recall, however,
that Sprague and Tanenbaum were out of the picture early in the
investigation, and it was Blakey who made the decisions about what to
release.
Atlasrecrd
>I agree that the film should have been released.
Col. William Bishop told Dick Russell that he saw Oswald in a training film
from New Orleans.
Martin Shackelford
Martin
Atlasrecrd wrote:
--
Llliibb
>at the Georgetown University Library in a collection there.
>I agree that the film should have been released. You'll recall, however,
>that Sprague and Tanenbaum were out of the picture early in the
>investigation, and it was Blakey who made the decisions about what to
>release.
>
>Martin
>--
<bleep> did that come from?" And your first action would be to check _in
minute detail_ the explanation. I will take your answer over my recollection,
but my skepticims remains.
My idea is that such a film should have been played immediately to the
"big boys and girls" on the staff--while less senior members were instantly
dispatched to Georgetown to search for any related material. My opinion is not
unbiased on this as I have read CORRUPTION OF BLOOD. _Deus ex machina_ style
does not appeal to me on any subject.
Bill B \\\
Llliibb
>Date: 5/4/00 5:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <3911EF16...@concentric.net>
>
>Correction:
>A second witness reports having seen the film mentioned by Tanenbaum, or
>one similar to it, but hasn't yet gone public.
>
>Martin
Sigh. Very few other posters here who would not draw a response along the
lines of, um, what _else_ did Jean say? That said, I will wait for the public
exposition. Without optimism.
Bill B
Debra Hartman
stories for 30 years prior to his death in 1993. His credibility is
absolutely zero. It is unfortunate that Dick Russell, who is an
intelligent man and a talented reporter, was led down this path by the
usual Dallas disinformationists. It is one of the pitfalls of trying
to study this case from afar. You are forced to rely on Dallas, and
Dallas is full of this kind of deliberate discrediting of folks like
Russell, all under the guise of being "helpful". Beverley Oliver,
Chancey Holt, Ricky White, William Bishop: all products cut from the
same bolt of moth-eaten rotten cloth.
You should throw everything attributed to Bishop out, and not save any
of the bathwater. In fact, you should sterilize the basin. Someone
here mentioned deux ex machina. Never was this more apt than in the
case of Bishop who conveniently filled all the holes in the Nagell
story. The story is the worse for it. Nagell is a very interesting
character, but requires great care. His story is *not* enhanced by
Bishop.
All that said, there is in fact a very good possiblity that there is
indeed a training film which includes Oswald. He was at the camps
outside New Orleans.
On 04 May 2000 22:56:17 GMT, atlas...@aol.com (Atlasrecrd) wrote:
>> Martin Shackelford msh...@concentric.net
>
>>I agree that the film should have been released.
>
Martin Shackelford
The witness was shown the film by David Ferrie in Oswald's presence in
1963. The former wife of David Lewis, a sometime Banister employee, has confirmed
(in a filmed interview), the relationship between the witness and Oswald, having
seen them together on numerous occasions that summer, outside of work (the two
worked together at Reily Co., a fact which is well documented). At this point,
that's about all I can say--and I was just given the OK by the witness to say that
much.
Expect more information on this and related matters sometime in the
not-too-distant future. This new evidence contains both familiar elements, and
some major surprises for a variety of viewpoints in this case. Very exciting
stuff!
Martin
Llliibb wrote:
--
Martin Shackelford
Atlasrecrd
> It is unfortunate that Dick Russell, who is an
>intelligent man and a talented reporter, was led down this path by the
>usual Dallas disinformationists.
It is unfortunate you didn't do your homework, my dear.
You see, the problem is that Tannenbaum first mentioned the film in his book
"Corruption of Blood" which was published in 1995.
Bishop told Russell of Oswald's presence in the film in 1990.
jpsh...@my-deja.com
http://www.salon.com/people/col/reit/1999/04/22/oswald/
Didn't this Judyth person post a bit here last year using the id
Electlady?
Jerry Shinley
In article <39126D85...@concentric.net>,
joez...@my-deja.com
Eric Chomko <cho...@IDT.NET> wrote:
> joez...@my-deja.com wrote:
> : In article <8epft0$t...@nnrp3.farm.idt.net>,
> : Eric Chomko <cho...@IDT.NET> wrote:
> [...]
> : > No, a patsy made out to look like a nut.
>
> : Your reply avoids the main thrust of my argument entirely.
>
> It's not my fault that you are easily distracted.
? I'm easily distracted because I noticed your reply wasn't to the
point of my argument?
In other words, if you have to change the subject because you can't
reply on topic, that's my fault?
>Maybe thats why you
> ended up as a lone nutter in the first place.
>
> : > : > You cannot explain away how LHO got funds to stay in NO and
had
> : out
> : > : > leaflets and then to go to MC.
> : >
> : > : Ever hear of the unemployment office? Oswald was collecting
> : > : unemployment the entire summer.
> : >
> : > It still does not explain going to Mexico City.
>
> : What do you need explained? Your question, I thought, concerned the
> : source of his funds for the activities that summer.
>
> Why go to Mexico City if you are living on unemployment?
To get a visa to get in Cuba, so you have an escape route after you
shoot and kill Walker.
> Why leave Dallas
> to go to New Orleans if you are unemeployment?
To agitate for Cuba there thru the phony FPCC chapter you set up so you
can get a visa to get into Cuba, so you have an escape route after you
shoot and kill Walker. Dallas would be too hot for you after you just
shot at Walker, and you don't want to raise your visibility there.
>And why got to New Orleans
> to hand out pro-Castro leaflets if you are unemploymed?
>
To agitate for Cuba there thru the phony FPCC chapter you set up so you
can get a visa to get into Cuba, so you have an escape route after you
shoot and kill Walker. Dallas would be too hot for you after you just
shot at Walker, and you don't want to raise your visibility there.
> Eric
>
--
"We're really in nut country now, Toto."
Llliibb
If you have delved this thoroughly into the matter, my obvious objections are
answered on definition. Will be most curious to eventually see how that is
done. Betimes, let me simply remark on witnesses unmoved for decades by
patriotism nor money, not even both. In any event, put me down for an
autographed copy.
Bill B
>Subject: Re: Group Consensus--LHO in N.O.
>From: Martin Shackelford msh...@concentric.net
>Date: 5/5/00 2:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <39126D85...@concentric.net>
joez...@my-deja.com
atlas...@aol.com (Atlasrecrd) wrote:
> > Debhar...@yahoo.com (Debra Hartman)
>
> > It is unfortunate that Dick Russell, who is an
> >intelligent man and a talented reporter, was led down this path by
the
> >usual Dallas disinformationists.
>
> It is unfortunate you didn't do your homework, my dear.
>
> You see, the problem is that Tannenbaum first mentioned the film in
his book
> "Corruption of Blood" which was published in 1995.
Corruption of Blood is a NOVEL!
Is there any other mention anywhere?
>
> Bishop told Russell of Oswald's presence in the film in 1990.
>
>
--
c/Capt Joe Biles
Orleans CIA contract agent who said he was an assassination meeting
where he saw Ferrie and Shaw are probably the two biggest pieces of
evidence I'm waiting for in 2029. I hope by then the public (and more
importantly the media) will be ready for the truth.
On 05 May 2000 02:42:41 EDT, Martin Shackelford
<msh...@concentric.net> wrote:
>Bill:
>
> The witness was shown the film by David Ferrie in Oswald's presence in
>1963. The former wife of David Lewis, a sometime Banister employee, has confirmed
>(in a filmed interview), the relationship between the witness and Oswald, having
>seen them together on numerous occasions that summer, outside of work (the two
>worked together at Reily Co., a fact which is well documented). At this point,
>that's about all I can say--and I was just given the OK by the witness to say that
>much.
> Expect more information on this and related matters sometime in the
>not-too-distant future. This new evidence contains both familiar elements, and
>some major surprises for a variety of viewpoints in this case. Very exciting
>stuff!
>
>Martin
>
>Llliibb wrote:
>
>> >Subject: Re: Group Consensus--LHO in N.O.
>> >From: Martin Shackelford msh...@concentric.net
Martin Shackelford
Martin
jpsh...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Is this related?
>
> http://www.salon.com/people/col/reit/1999/04/22/oswald/
>
> Didn't this Judyth person post a bit here last year using the id
> Electlady?
>
> Jerry Shinley
>
> In article <39126D85...@concentric.net>,
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
--
Clark
"Debra Hartman" <Debhar...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3913a2d4...@news.earthlink.net...
> I wasn't referring to the film. Bishop was fully prepped for his
> interview with Russell (just as folks like Oliver, Ricky White,
> Chauncey Holt--who did a pretty good number on Newsweek magazine--and
> countless others have been) by someone who had lots of information
> from the HSCA (including information which was later dragged out and
> perverted in the Ricky White hoax). If you choose to believe a word
> that the nutcase Bishop said (with lots of help) please do so. The
> intent of presenting him to Russell was not to further the truth.
> That you can count on. All good disinformation has elements of truth.
>
>
> *Bishop* was first dug up by Fensterwald (a key disinformationist) a
> decade or more before the Russell interview. It is not a pretty
> story. These nutcases are used multiple times, for multiple purposes.
> Their handlers use them, allow their stories to be discredited, then
> resurrect them years later for other purposes. This has happened
> again and again. Bishop is only one example. While I think you have
> good instincts in a lot of areas, I'd be careful about claiming
> someone hasn't done their homework if I were you.
>
My congratulations on your insight.
I, too, find Col. Bishop unreliable and suspicious. In fact, I have never
found a single claim of his confirmed. Believing him could be dangerous and
misleading to an otherwise sound theory.
FWIW,
::Clark::
Clark
"Martin Shackelford" <msh...@concentric.net> wrote in message
news:391398C8...@concentric.net...
> Bill:
>
> A few more details. Ferrie was assembling pieces of film, so
> there wasn't a single continuous reel of footage (though there may be
> more than one such film). The segments were shot on different days--the
> lighting was different--and one segment was shot indoors in a bare room.
>
> Martin
> --
> Martin Shackelford
>
Do you know what the supposed subject of the film was?
Just curious.
::Clark::
Martin Shackelford
A few more details. Ferrie was assembling pieces of film, so
there wasn't a single continuous reel of footage (though there may be
more than one such film). The segments were shot on different days--the
lighting was different--and one segment was shot indoors in a bare room.
Martin
--
Martin Shackelford
"You're going to find that many of the truths we
Martin Shackelford
confirmed as a factual detail by Tanenbaum in an interview after its
publication. The interview was published in Probe and is on their website
in full.
Martin
joez...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
--
Stugrad98
Is "Judyth" your source? Please at least tell us no, because she sounds as
though she isn't to be believed and you certainly have my hopes up.
-Stu
Stugrad98
I believe Dave Reitzes did some leg work on this and the Georgetown folks say
they never had such a film.
-Stu
Debra Hartman
interview with Russell (just as folks like Oliver, Ricky White,
Chauncey Holt--who did a pretty good number on Newsweek magazine--and
countless others have been) by someone who had lots of information
from the HSCA (including information which was later dragged out and
perverted in the Ricky White hoax). If you choose to believe a word
that the nutcase Bishop said (with lots of help) please do so. The
intent of presenting him to Russell was not to further the truth.
That you can count on. All good disinformation has elements of truth.
*Bishop* was first dug up by Fensterwald (a key disinformationist) a
decade or more before the Russell interview. It is not a pretty
story. These nutcases are used multiple times, for multiple purposes.
Their handlers use them, allow their stories to be discredited, then
resurrect them years later for other purposes. This has happened
again and again. Bishop is only one example. While I think you have
good instincts in a lot of areas, I'd be careful about claiming
someone hasn't done their homework if I were you.
On 05 May 2000 07:08:17 GMT, atlas...@aol.com (Atlasrecrd) wrote:
>> Debhar...@yahoo.com (Debra Hartman)
>
>> It is unfortunate that Dick Russell, who is an
>>intelligent man and a talented reporter, was led down this path by the
>>usual Dallas disinformationists.
>
> It is unfortunate you didn't do your homework, my dear.
>
> You see, the problem is that Tannenbaum first mentioned the film in his book
>"Corruption of Blood" which was published in 1995.
>
Atlasrecrd
> Bishop was fully prepped for his
>interview with Russell (just as folks like Oliver, Ricky White,
>Chauncey Holt--who did a pretty good number on Newsweek magazine--and
>countless others have been) by someone who had lots of information
>from the HSCA
Who was the person with lots of info from the HSCA?
IOW, who told Bishop about the film?
Debra Hartman
Debra Conway
http://x39.deja.com/[ST_rn=ap]/dnquery.xp?search=word&defaultOp=and&query=%7
ea%20(elec
And yes, this is the same Judyth referred to in the Salon articles.
Debra Conway
http://jfklancer.com
Martin Shackelford
Martin
Clark wrote:
> "Martin Shackelford" <msh...@concentric.net> wrote in message
> news:391398C8...@concentric.net...
> > Bill:
> >
> > A few more details. Ferrie was assembling pieces of film, so
> > there wasn't a single continuous reel of footage (though there may be
> > more than one such film). The segments were shot on different days--the
> > lighting was different--and one segment was shot indoors in a bare room.
> >
> > Martin
> > --
> > Martin Shackelford
> >
>
> Do you know what the supposed subject of the film was?
>
> Just curious.
>
> ::Clark::
--
joez...@my-deja.com
Martin Shackelford <msh...@concentric.net> wrote:
> The discussion of the film as discussed in the novel (as we knew) was
> confirmed as a factual detail by Tanenbaum in an interview after its
> publication. The interview was published in Probe and is on their
website
> in full.
>
Let me get this straight: A novel mentions a film, and the author of
the novel says the film actually exists. Nobody has ever seen it. It's
never surfaced anywhere. This is enough to conclude it's 'a factual
detail'?
Nope.
PS: Does that film show Oswald with Bigfoot too?
> Martin
>
> joez...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > In article <20000505030817...@ng-fg1.aol.com>,
> > atlas...@aol.com (Atlasrecrd) wrote:
> > > > Debhar...@yahoo.com (Debra Hartman)
> > >
> > > > It is unfortunate that Dick Russell, who is an
> > > >intelligent man and a talented reporter, was led down this path
by
> > the
> > > >usual Dallas disinformationists.
> > >
> > > It is unfortunate you didn't do your homework, my dear.
> > >
> > > You see, the problem is that Tannenbaum first mentioned the film
in
> > his book
> > > "Corruption of Blood" which was published in 1995.
> >
> > Corruption of Blood is a NOVEL!
> >
> > Is there any other mention anywhere?
> >
> > >
> > > Bishop told Russell of Oswald's presence in the film in 1990.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> > "We're really in nut country now, Toto."
> >
> > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> > Before you buy.
>
> --
> Martin Shackelford
>
> "You're going to find that many of the truths we
> cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."
> -Obi-Wan Kenobi
>
> "You must unlearn what you have learned." --Yoda
>
>
--
"We're really in nut country now, Toto."
Martin Shackelford
was such a film, and that it wasn't just a detail he made up for the novel.
Atlasrecrd
You sound worried :). How come?
>Let me get this straight: A novel mentions a film, and the author of
>the novel says the film actually exists.
My goodness, I'm just not sure if I've EVER heard anything so outrageous :}
...............
.....Something tells me you already know that Tannenbaum testified to the
ARRB that the film existed.
> Does that film show Oswald with Bigfoot too?
Whoops! A bigfoot reference. U just gave ya-self away...
joez...@my-deja.com
its existence? What studies were done to ensure it's Oswald in the film
as opposed to, for instance, Billy Lovelady? Remember the Altgens photo?
Does this entire film rest at this point on Tannenbaum's word?
In article <391DC631...@concentric.net>,
Martin Shackelford <msh...@concentric.net> wrote:
> What I meant, Joe, quite clearly, is that Tanenbaum confirmed that
there
> was such a film, and that it wasn't just a detail he made up for the
novel.
>
> Martin
>
> joez...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > In article <3913993C...@concentric.net>,
> > Martin Shackelford <msh...@concentric.net> wrote:
> > > The discussion of the film as discussed in the novel (as we knew)
was
> > > confirmed as a factual detail by Tanenbaum in an interview after
its
> > > publication. The interview was published in Probe and is on their
> > website
> > > in full.
> > >
> >
> > Let me get this straight: A novel mentions a film, and the author of
joez...@my-deja.com
> >the novel says the film actually exists.
>
outrageous :}
Is the author the sole source of the film contents? Where can I see a
copy of this film, for instance?
> ...............
>
> .....Something tells me you already know that Tannenbaum testified
to the
> ARRB that the film existed.
No, but again, that reduces to Tannenbaum being the source. One guy. No
film. Just his statement. Right?
>
> > Does that film show Oswald with Bigfoot too?
>
> Whoops! A bigfoot reference. U just gave ya-self away...
Yeah, as a person who likes proof before he believes something.
Martin Shackelford
I've talked with another witness who saw it or a similar film at Ferrie's
apartment in the summer of 1963.
Martin
joez...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Lee me ask it another way: Where's this film today? Who has confirmed
> its existence? What studies were done to ensure it's Oswald in the film
> as opposed to, for instance, Billy Lovelady? Remember the Altgens photo?
>
> Does this entire film rest at this point on Tannenbaum's word?
>
> In article <391DC631...@concentric.net>,
> Martin Shackelford <msh...@concentric.net> wrote:
> > What I meant, Joe, quite clearly, is that Tanenbaum confirmed that
> there
> > was such a film, and that it wasn't just a detail he made up for the
> novel.
> >
> > Martin
> >
> > joez...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
> > > In article <3913993C...@concentric.net>,
> > > Martin Shackelford <msh...@concentric.net> wrote:
> > > > The discussion of the film as discussed in the novel (as we knew)
> was
> > > > confirmed as a factual detail by Tanenbaum in an interview after
> its
> > > > publication. The interview was published in Probe and is on their
> > > website
> > > > in full.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Let me get this straight: A novel mentions a film, and the author of
> > > > > --
> > > > > "We're really in nut country now, Toto."
> > > > >
> > > > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> > > > > Before you buy.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Martin Shackelford
> > > >
> > > > "You're going to find that many of the truths we
> > > > cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."
> > > > -Obi-Wan Kenobi
> > > >
> > > > "You must unlearn what you have learned." --Yoda
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > "We're really in nut country now, Toto."
> > >
> > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> > > Before you buy.
> >
> > --
> > Martin Shackelford
> >
> > "You're going to find that many of the truths we
> > cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."
> > -Obi-Wan Kenobi
> >
> > "You must unlearn what you have learned." --Yoda
> >
> >
>
> --
> "We're really in nut country now, Toto."
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
--
Debra Conway
Tannenbaum's address to the ARRB in Los Angeles. I was in the audience and I
can assure you he meant every word about the film and stated it firmly.
Tannenbaum has been criticized by many for writing a novel about his
experiences instead of a non-fiction book. I'm not going to address that
here, only encourage you to read his testimony.
Thanks,
Debra
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/arrb/index32.htm
Though I wish everyone would read the entire transcript, here are some
quotes on his experience with the film.
"We came across a film of anti-Castro Cubans -- who were identified as
anti-Castro Cubans -- not on the film [Debra's note: not identified by name]
but people who we recognized -- and these soldier of fortune types with the
contract employees CIA, the Sturgess', the Hemmings and other individuals.
Again, it was somewhat shocking to me because I learned that PS 238 in
Brooklyn when I was in public school, that there was the Army, Navy, Air
Force and Marines and Coast Guard, I didn't know about any secret armies
that were existing in America."
"DR. HALL: I have a two-part question for you. Part one is, I think in your
answer to Judge Tunheim about what other materials might be there, you
didn't speak to the question of the film that you mentioned both in your
PROBE interview as well I believe in "Corruption of Blood" that deals with
anti-Castro Cubans and the group that was there. So I wonder if you could
speak to that particular matter.
"As far as where the film is, again, I can only tell you that all of the
material I assume was in the same place, and that is where all the documents
were kept in the document area as well as -- and when I say "documents" I
include in that witnesses' statements and memos that were drafted, films,
medical evidence and other pieces of evidentiary value. So I can't tell you
exactly what room it was in, but we had it in our possession.
DR. HALL: And that film had been obtained from the Georgetown University
library?
MR. TANENBAUM: That's my best recollection is that our investigators,
researchers found it in the Georgetown library archives as I recall.
DR. HALL: And just for the record, the significance of this film if it were
now recovered, would be?
MR. TANENBAUM: If it showed -- again, it could be Sherlock Holmes again. It
could be everything it could be nothing. On one hand it shows a lot of
anti-Castro Cuban players with CIA contract people in a military training
setting. It was some speculation, somewhat unclear, as to the direct
identities of some of these people, and as I stand here now I'm not going to
tell you exactly who they were. But, it was some of the major players in
this whole case.
Now, does that mean, for example, and in direct answer to your question, Mr.
Hall, that if we continued our probe into the anti-Castro Cuban connection
with the CIA that that would show that the CIA in some fashion was
responsible for the assassination, I can't say that and will not say that.
And it doesn't mean also that Lee Harvey Oswald didn't act alone, I can't
say that. But there's certain medical evidence and other evidence that
suggests that perhaps he did not act alone. That's a whole different area of
inquiry. So with respect to the film, it was just another piece of this
great mosaic of trying to understand and recapture what occurred at a time.
And that's one of the reasons why it was a fascinating view.
DR. HALL: But the critical piece here, this is a piece of material that you
had previously seen in the course of your role as an investigator that is at
the moment not available --
MR. TANENBAUM: Again, I don't know where it is -- but, yes, I did see that
as my role on the Committee.
DR. HALL: Thank you. "
--
JFK Lancer Productions & Publications http://jfklancer.com
"Serving the research community, educating a new generation."
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is
for good men to do nothing." Edmund Burke
Keep up with JFK News. Subscribe at http://jfklancer.com/Groups2.html or
Send an email instead: Click here: jfklancerne...@listbot.com
> From: Martin Shackelford <msh...@concentric.net>
> Organization: Concentric Internet Services
> Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
> Date: 14 May 2000 23:28:22 EDT
> Subject: Re: Group Consensus--LHO in N.O.
>
joez...@my-deja.com
joez...@my-deja.com
the two films today?
If you can't produce either film, then it comes down to these two
peoples statements. Right? As I asked, but you failed to answer, how
certain are the ID's? What studies were done to determine it's Oswald
as opposed to Billy Lovelady, or somebody else? Remember the Altgen's
photo? Remember the 3 tramps - each of whom has been positively as two,
three, or four different people? How confident are you that these
eyeball ID's are evidence of anything? Understand the problem?
Let me ask another question: How comfortable would you be accepting the
assertion that I've heard film taken from behind the grassy knoll
establishes there was no one there at the time of the shooting? I can't
produce the film, but two people have seen it, and they attest to it.
Understand the problem? In the absence of that film, you would be more
than a little cautious, wouldn't you?
Isn't it curious how all the evidence that points to conspiracy is
never able to be produced when anyone asks to see it? That should tell
you something about how valid these conspiracy arguments are.
joez...@my-deja.com
lll...@aol.com (Llliibb) wrote:
<snip>
> >
> >Except by that time, Oswald would have gone as a friend of the
> >revolution, having killed Walker.
> >
> Even the most ardent of the _Fideistas_ would have been
reluctant to
> invite over an assassin, thus establishing _cassus belli_. (Sp?)
Walker was
> not the cause of Havana's difficulties. More to the point, a "walk
in" so
> claiming would be thrown out into the street, as a damn nut or a
provocateur.
That's your take on this. It's not necessarily Oswald's. Right?
<snip>
> >>
> >> >In fact, when he needed a little help passing out literature - and
> >when
> >> >he knew the TV cameras would be rolling - he hired a few guys from
> >the
> >> >local unemployment office.
> >> >
> >> \\\ DeMohrenshildt's (already in 1964) former son-in-law remarked
on
> >Oswald's
> >> penurious garb when known to him with the well dressed LHO handing
out
> >> leaflets. He speculated that Oswald must have been given money.
> >Note that Lee
> >> the Innocent and his associates are all dressed in the same
fashion,
> >which
> >> would make random selection at the local unemployment office
> >unlikely.
> >>
> >
> >Don't think the conclusion you've drawn is justified. Look at film or
> >photos of baseball crowds, for instance, from that era. Most men are
in
> >suits, ties, and hats. For a baseball game! I dare say you won't find
> >one man in a hundred dressing that way today at a baseball game.
Don't
> >compare modern fashion dress (or, more accurately, lack of it), with
> >the 1963 expected garb.
> >
> Back then I was Memphis boy and people there were not overfond
of suits
> for "walking around." Trade Mart, of course, would have attracted a
more
> "toney" than usual set of people. Maybe New Orleans was more formal,
but would
> have been even more humid. Taylor was emphasizing that he had never
seen
> Oswald so dressed and that the clothes seemed a fine fit. And the
others
> match. The others who have disppeared not just from NOPD and the
Cubans...
>
> I like non-random selection of associates. When dark pants,
tie, and
> white shirt is established as standard at unemployment office, I will
concede.
>
You don't know that the 'non-random selection' wasn't performed by
Oswald. In other words, with 10 people willing to hand out leaflets,
for example, but needing only 3, he selected the three who were dressed
most like himself. Isn't that at least as likely as any conspiratorial
window dressing?
joez...@my-deja.com
I see nothing in what you posted that even suggests Oswald was in the
film in question.
Perhaps you can point me to this admission of Tannebaums?
I don't see it below.
Thanks again.
In article <B544E7D9.47FA%de...@jfklancer.com>,
Clark
<joez...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8fpem0$o23$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <20000503181402...@ng-fq1.aol.com>,
> lll...@aol.com (Llliibb) wrote:
> <snip>
> > >
> > >Except by that time, Oswald would have gone as a friend of the
> > >revolution, having killed Walker.
> > >
> > Even the most ardent of the _Fideistas_ would have been
> reluctant to
> > invite over an assassin, thus establishing _cassus belli_. (Sp?)
> Walker was
> > not the cause of Havana's difficulties. More to the point, a "walk
> in" so
> > claiming would be thrown out into the street, as a damn nut or a
> provocateur.
>
> That's your take on this. It's not necessarily Oswald's. Right?
>
>
I asked you before but got no answer. Do you have any evidence thatr Oswald
told the Cubans he shoit at Walker or showed them his photograph of Walker's
home.
BTW, I agree with your assessment of the "training" film in which Oswald
allegedly appears. If there is such a film, it's probably a look alike. I
remember once watching a football game on TV and - whoa! - danged if I
didn't see myself sitting right there in the crowd. Have it on my VCR. I
guess we all have our doubles.
FWIW,
::Clark::
Martin Shackelford
Folks might also want to read Tanenbaum's comments to Probe on the
subject:
http://www.webcom.com/ctka/pr796-bti.html
Martin
Martin Shackelford
Oswald was present when Ferrie showed the film, and pointed
himself out to the witness. Is that not sufficient identification?
It's true that we don't know where the film is today--that
would be customary with suppressed evidence. Bob Tanenbaum was assistant
chief counsel to the HSCA, and reports the committee staff found the
film at the Georgetown University Library, and placed it among their
evidence. There is no reason to believe he is not a reliable witness on
this matter.
I'm not saying any of this proves anything. What I am saying is
that it is sufficient basis to keep looking for the film. Then we can
all see what it shows.
Martin
Martin Shackelford
JD: Another thing you've discussed and it's featured in your book, is
this incredible movie of the
Cuban exile training camp.
BT: To the best of my recollection, we found that movie somewhere in the
Georgetown library archives. The
movie was shocking to me because it demonstrated the notion that the CIA
was training, in America, a separate
army. It was shocking to me because I'm a true believer in the system
and yet there are notorious characters in
the system, who are being funded by the system, who are absolutely
un-American! And who knows what they
would do, eventually. What if we send people to Washington who they
can't deal with? Out comes their secret
army? So, I find that to be as contrary to the constitution as you can
get.
JD: Was it really as you described in the book, with all the people in
that film? Bishop was in the film?
BT: Oh, yeah. Absolutely! They're all in the film. They're all there.
But, the fact of the matter is the Committee
began to balk at a series of events. The most significant one was when
[David Atlee] Phillips came up before
the Committee and then had to be recalled because it was clear that he
hadn't told the truth. That had to do with
the phony commentary he made about Oswald going to Mexico City on or
about October 1st, 1963.
So, what does Tanenbaum say in "Corruption of Blood" that he here
affirms as being taken from factual details of the HSCA investigation:
p. 142
"several spools of 8mm film" belonging to David Ferrie, acquired by a
reporter.
[Reportedly from an Associated Press archive at Georgetown University].
[This is from some notes I made--if anyone has the book handy, please
quote his description of the film's contents. Not sure where my copy is
at present.]
Martin
joez...@my-deja.com
Martin Shackelford <msh...@concentric.net> wrote:
> Joe:
>
> Oswald was present when Ferrie showed the film, and pointed
> himself out to the witness. Is that not sufficient identification?
No. Because this ID, the film, the whole kit & kiboodle, is all
according to the same person, (not Tannenbaum), right?
How trustworthy is that person? You see the problem?
I've got a witness that points out BigFoot in a film of the grassy
knoll that looks like the Blair Witch Project. My witness says Bigfoot
pointed himself out to my witness when they viewed the film. This is
just before the UFO took BigFoot and the film away.
Is that not sufficient identification?
Why not? It's exactly the same as what you've presented? An unnamed
witness. A supposed ID. A missing film. Why won't I agree yours is
sufficient? For the same reason you won't agree mine is.
> It's true that we don't know where the film is today--that
> would be customary with suppressed evidence. Bob Tanenbaum was
assistant
> chief counsel to the HSCA, and reports the committee staff found the
> film at the Georgetown University Library, and placed it among their
> evidence. There is no reason to believe he is not a reliable witness
on
> this matter.
> I'm not saying any of this proves anything. What I am saying
is
> that it is sufficient basis to keep looking for the film. Then we can
> all see what it shows.
>
> Martin
joez...@my-deja.com
"Clark" <clwi...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>
>
> <joez...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8fpem0$o23
$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > In article <20000503181402...@ng-fq1.aol.com>,
> > lll...@aol.com (Llliibb) wrote:
> > <snip>
> > > >
> > > >Except by that time, Oswald would have gone as a friend of the
> > > >revolution, having killed Walker.
> > > >
> > > Even the most ardent of the _Fideistas_ would have been
> > reluctant to
> > > invite over an assassin, thus establishing _cassus belli_. (Sp?)
> > Walker was
> > > not the cause of Havana's difficulties. More to the point,
a "walk
> > in" so
> > > claiming would be thrown out into the street, as a damn nut or a
> > provocateur.
> >
> > That's your take on this. It's not necessarily Oswald's. Right?
> >
> >
>
> I asked you before but got no answer. Do you have any evidence thatr
Oswald
> told the Cubans he shoit at Walker or showed them his photograph of
Walker's
> home.
No, I answered this. You must have missed it. It's my belief the
evidence would have been presented upon his defection, not upon his
application for a visa. There's really little value in presenting that
evidence ahead of time. "Here's a photo of a guy's house who's a enemy
of the Cuban revolution. I plan to kill him someday, then defect. That
okay with you? Now can I have my visa?" Doesn't cut it, in my opinion.
But if he shows up as a friend of the Cuban Revolution, having offed
Walker, that's a different story. But his escape is dependent upon
getting the visa, ensuring his escape route. Without that visa, the
rest of the plan cannot succeed. Which is why he gets rather upset when
he's given the run-around at the Russian & Cuban embassies.
>
> BTW, I agree with your assessment of the "training" film in which
Oswald
> allegedly appears. If there is such a film, it's probably a look
alike.
Or BigFoot, just before he boarded the UFO.
>I
> remember once watching a football game on TV and - whoa! - danged if I
> didn't see myself sitting right there in the crowd. Have it on my
VCR. I
> guess we all have our doubles.
>
> FWIW,
>
> ::Clark::
>
>
--
joez...@my-deja.com
anything you quoted. Did I miss it?
Where is this supposed mention?
In article <3920B709...@concentric.net>,
joez...@my-deja.com
Enjoyed the article tremendously. Thanks again.
In article <3920B351...@concentric.net>,
Martin Shackelford <msh...@concentric.net> wrote:
> Thanks for posting the Tanenbaum segment, Deb.
> Folks might also want to read Tanenbaum's comments to Probe on the
> subject:
> http://www.webcom.com/ctka/pr796-bti.html
>
> Martin
Martin Shackelford
A published photograph shows the witness in Oswald's presence
(closer than Ferrie is to Oswald in the CAP photo).
Documents verify the witness began working at Reily, and stopped
working at Reily, at approximately the same time as Oswald.
There is other documentation, but that's about all I can say at
the moment.
Martin
joez...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <3920B478...@concentric.net>,
Martin Shackelford
passage.
Martin
joez...@my-deja.com wrote:
> I don't see Tannenbaum's mention of Oswald in the film, Martin, in
> anything you quoted. Did I miss it?
>
> Where is this supposed mention?
>
> In article <3920B709...@concentric.net>,
joez...@my-deja.com
Martin Shackelford <msh...@concentric.net> wrote:
> Joe:
>
> A published photograph shows the witness in Oswald's presence
> (closer than Ferrie is to Oswald in the CAP photo).
So what? That's not the question. That's got absolutely nothing to do
with whether Oswald is depicted in a specific film. Again, it reduces
to this guy's word, right?
> Documents verify the witness began working at Reily, and
stopped
> working at Reily, at approximately the same time as Oswald.
So what? That's not the question. That's got absolutely nothing to do
with whether Oswald is depicted in a specific film. Again, it reduces
to this guy's word, right?
> There is other documentation, but that's about all I can say
at
> the moment.
Documentation for the guy knowing Oswald is NOT the issue.
Documentation for Oswald being in the film is. Got any of that lying
around?
I didn't think so.
>
> Martin
>
> joez...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > In article <3920B478...@concentric.net>,
joez...@my-deja.com
Martin Shackelford <msh...@concentric.net> wrote:
> It's in Corruption of Blood, but I couldn't find my copy to quote the
> passage.
>
Well, we've come full circle, haven't we? Corruption of Blood is a
*novel*!
One that Tannenbaum is already on record as saying about: "Well, keep
in mind the book is all fiction."
So citing a novel as a source isn't exactly your best recourse.
> Martin
>
> joez...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > I don't see Tannenbaum's mention of Oswald in the film, Martin, in
> > anything you quoted. Did I miss it?
> >
> > Where is this supposed mention?
> >
> > In article <3920B709...@concentric.net>,
Martin Shackelford
As you seem to keep ignoring, the evidence supports that a continued search
for it is worthwhile--not that verbal statements about it are evidence as to
its contents.
Martin
joez...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <3922257A...@concentric.net>,
> Martin Shackelford <msh...@concentric.net> wrote:
> > Joe:
> >
> > A published photograph shows the witness in Oswald's presence
> > (closer than Ferrie is to Oswald in the CAP photo).
>
> So what? That's not the question. That's got absolutely nothing to do
> with whether Oswald is depicted in a specific film. Again, it reduces
> to this guy's word, right?
>
> > Documents verify the witness began working at Reily, and
> stopped
> > working at Reily, at approximately the same time as Oswald.
>
> So what? That's not the question. That's got absolutely nothing to do
> with whether Oswald is depicted in a specific film. Again, it reduces
> to this guy's word, right?
>
> > There is other documentation, but that's about all I can say
> at
> > the moment.
>
> Documentation for the guy knowing Oswald is NOT the issue.
> Documentation for Oswald being in the film is. Got any of that lying
> around?
>
> I didn't think so.
>
> >
> > Martin
> >
> > joez...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
> > > In article <3920B478...@concentric.net>,
Martin Shackelford
testmony, as you well know.
The book itself was fiction, but factual elements from his service on HSCA
were incorporated.
Martin
joez...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <39222594...@concentric.net>,
> Martin Shackelford <msh...@concentric.net> wrote:
> > It's in Corruption of Blood, but I couldn't find my copy to quote the
> > passage.
> >
>
> Well, we've come full circle, haven't we? Corruption of Blood is a
> *novel*!
>
> One that Tannenbaum is already on record as saying about: "Well, keep
> in mind the book is all fiction."
>
> So citing a novel as a source isn't exactly your best recourse.
>
> > Martin
> >
> > joez...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
> > > I don't see Tannenbaum's mention of Oswald in the film, Martin, in
> > > anything you quoted. Did I miss it?
> > >
> > > Where is this supposed mention?
> > >
> > > In article <3920B709...@concentric.net>,
joez...@my-deja.com
Martin Shackelford <msh...@concentric.net> wrote:
> When we find the film.
> As you seem to keep ignoring, the evidence supports that a continued
search
> for it is worthwhile--not that verbal statements about it are
evidence as to
> its contents.
>
Call in when you find it, then.
I remind you that you initially wrote:
"The discussion of the film as discussed in the novel (as we knew) was
confirmed as a factual detail by Tanenbaum in an interview after its
publication. The interview was published in Probe and is on their
website in full."
Unfortunately, the citations cited *don't* have Tannenbaum saying
anything of the sort, as I pointed out previously (unless I missed it).
Now you're down to saying that nothing can be said about the contents
of the film until it surfaces. Yes, exactly. I agree 100%. That's been
my point all along.
> Martin
>
> joez...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > In article <3922257A...@concentric.net>,
> > > Martin
> > >
> > > joez...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > >
> > > > In article <3920B478...@concentric.net>,
joezircon
mentions Oswald appearing in a film that Tannenbaum saw. Maybe you
could quote that line for me?
In article <39237B2C...@concentric.net>, Martin Shackelford
<msh...@concentric.net> wrote:
> Your "all fiction" quote ignores Tanenbaum's Probe interview and
> ARRB
> testmony, as you well know.
> The book itself was fiction, but factual elements from his service
> on HSCA
> were incorporated.
> Martin
> joez...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > In article <39222594...@concentric.net>,
> > Martin Shackelford <msh...@concentric.net> wrote:
> > > It's in Corruption of Blood, but I couldn't find my copy to
> quote the
> > > passage.
> > >
> >
> > Well, we've come full circle, haven't we? Corruption of Blood is
> a
> > *novel*!
> >
> > One that Tannenbaum is already on record as saying about: "Well,
> keep
> > in mind the book is all fiction."
> >
> > So citing a novel as a source isn't exactly your best recourse.
> >
> > > Martin
> > >
> > > joez...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > >
> > > > I don't see Tannenbaum's mention of Oswald in the film,
> Martin, in
> > > > anything you quoted. Did I miss it?
> > > >
> > > > Where is this supposed mention?
> > > >
> > > > In article <3920B709...@concentric.net>,
> > > > > So, what does Tanenbaum say in "Corruption of Blood" that
> he here
> > > > > affirms as being taken from factual details of the HSCA
> > investigation:
> > > > >
> > > > > p. 142
> > > > > "several spools of 8mm film" belonging to David Ferrie,
> acquired
> > by a
> > > > > reporter.
> > > > > [Reportedly from an Associated Press archive at Georgetown
> > > > University].
> > > > > [This is from some notes I made--if anyone has the book
> handy,
> > please
> > > > > quote his description of the film's contents. Not sure
> where my
> > copy
> > > > is
> > > > > at present.]
> > > > >
> > > > > Martin
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