"It apparently never crossed the minds of the alleged conspirators to simply get rid of the evidence that could convict them."
David Von Pein
www.amazon.com/Message-Patricia-Lambert-apology-Bugliosi/forum/Fx2TVHW5I0UEY9A/TxR9QNQTFC20JF/23/ref=cm_cd_et_md_pl/?%5Fencoding=UTF8&cdMsgNo=564&cdAnchor=0393045250&cdSort=oldest&cdMsgID=Mx2X9OP508K4QGD#Mx2X9OP508K4QGD
>>> "Does it not strike you as the least bit strange that the agents are
writing down six steps for creating a new paper trail and erasing the old
one, and then SAVING IT?" <<<
Indeed. Along these same hilarious "Why The Heck Did They Do It Like
This?" lines, allow me to quote my new favorite LN source (VB, who
else?)......
"If we're to believe the theorists, it apparently never crossed the minds
of the alleged conspirators who killed Kennedy to simply get rid of the
evidence that could convict them. Unlike nearly all ordinary conspirators,
Kennedy's killers intentionally and knowingly left evidence behind in the
archives and the Warren Commission volumes that could expose them --
evidence that only the conspiracists are smart and industrious enough to
uncover." -- VINCENT T. BUGLIOSI, ESQ.; Via Page #418 of the CD's endnotes
in "RECLAIMING HISTORY" (c.2007)
www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/showpost.php?p=3200860
playiso...@email.com
> www.amazon.com/Message-Patricia-Lambert-apology-Bugliosi/forum/Fx2TVH...
>
> >>> "Does it not strike you as the least bit strange that the agents are
>
> writing down six steps for creating a new paper trail and erasing the old
> one, and then SAVING IT?" <<<
>
> Indeed. Along these same hilarious "Why The Heck Did They Do It Like
> This?" lines, allow me to quote my new favorite LN source (VB, who
> else?)......
>
> "If we're to believe the theorists, it apparently never crossed the minds
> of the alleged conspirators who killed Kennedy to simply get rid of the
> evidence that could convict them. Unlike nearly all ordinary conspirators,
> Kennedy's killers intentionally and knowingly left evidence behind in the
> archives and the Warren Commission volumes that could expose them --
> evidence that only the conspiracists are smart and industrious enough to
> uncover." -- VINCENT T. BUGLIOSI, ESQ.; Via Page #418 of the CD's endnotes
> in "RECLAIMING HISTORY" (c.2007)
>
> www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/showpost.php?p=3200860
>
> www.DavidVonPein.blogspot.com
no wonder this claim didn't make the main text
odds are that no one knew there'd be a WC before the assassination
also conspiracies leave behind evidence all the time
it often is a matter of interest or interpretation as to if or when
these conspiracies are uncovered
case in point: Hoover used to deny the existence of organized crime
was this because there was no evidence left behind by the 'ordinary'
conspirators?
as long as deniers (LNs) are in charge of interpreting the evidence,
their conclusions are obvious
this is another case of VB using demagoguery instead of logic
VB is the PT Barnum of LNs
A
eca...@tx.rr.com
Ed
On Sep 25, 12:05 am, David Von Pein <davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:
> www.amazon.com/Message-Patricia-Lambert-apology-Bugliosi/forum/Fx2TVH...
>
David Von Pein
<<<
<Large Laugh Here>
Yeah, I guess those plotters who were creating incriminating documents,
etc., must have thought that the Government and/or the State of Texas
would simply throw their hands up in the air after the murder of the
President and say "Oh well! What can we do?! It's over now!" -- i.e., no
court trial at all (if Oswald had lived) and no official inquiries to
worry about either, either by the Govt. or by local/state officials.
>>> "This is another case of VB using demagoguery instead of logic. VB is
the PT Barnum of LNs." <<<
The irony abounds (again).
Remember my bladder! Please! You CTers KNOW it's weak...and yet you
continue to put me through this laughfest, day after day.
Anthony Marsh
>>>> "Odds are that no one knew there'd be a WC before the assassination."
> <<<
>
> <Large Laugh Here>
>
> Yeah, I guess those plotters who were creating incriminating documents,
> etc., must have thought that the Government and/or the State of Texas
> would simply throw their hands up in the air after the murder of the
> President and say "Oh well! What can we do?! It's over now!" -- i.e., no
> court trial at all (if Oswald had lived) and no official inquiries to
> worry about either, either by the Govt. or by local/state officials.
>
>
Sometimes the conspirators assume that the official documents have been
destroyed, when accidentally some copies remain. Such as the Castro plots
and MK/ULTRA. Remember how Ollie North THOUGHT that he had destroyed all
the incriminating files?
David Von Pein
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/msg/a36996e6005f352a
>>> "Sometimes the conspirators assume that the official documents have
been destroyed, when accidentally some copies remain." <<<
Convenient dodge there.
So, it now appears that not only are the conspirators writing down their
evil deeds on paper -- but they are also MAKING EXTRA COPIES of these
sinister pro-conspiracy memos too!
The one original document ain't enough, huh? So the plotters decide to
make covering their asses much more difficult by COPYING their CT
handiwork many times over (so that crackerjack CT hunters like The
Marsh-ster can find them decades later).
Nice. (And stupid too.)
Anthony Marsh
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/msg/a36996e6005f352a
>
>>>> "Sometimes the conspirators assume that the official documents have
> been destroyed, when accidentally some copies remain." <<<
>
>
> Convenient dodge there.
>
No dodge. Simple fact.
> So, it now appears that not only are the conspirators writing down their
> evil deeds on paper -- but they are also MAKING EXTRA COPIES of these
> sinister pro-conspiracy memos too!
>
Others make extra copies. Copies are sent to other agencies.
> The one original document ain't enough, huh? So the plotters decide to
Sometimes the one original document is the only one left or it has been
destroyed and only some remote copy is left.
> make covering their asses much more difficult by COPYING their CT
> handiwork many times over (so that crackerjack CT hunters like The
> Marsh-ster can find them decades later).
>
Sometimes other intelligence officers cover themselves by making copies
to squirrel away.
> Nice. (And stupid too.)
>
You obviously know nothing about intelligence agencies.
>
David Von Pein
Even within the pre-arranged context of --- "THERE'S A CONSPIRACY
AFOOT AND WE PROBABLY OUGHT NOT BE WRITING THIS SHIT DOWN FOR OTHERS
TO SEE"?
El-Oh-El.
(My tiny bladder!! Dammit!)
>>> "You obviously know nothing about intelligence agencies." <<<
And you obviously need to swallow another CS&L pill (or two).
Anthony Marsh
>>>> "Others make extra copies. Copies are sent to other agencies." <<<
>
> Even within the pre-arranged context of --- "THERE'S A CONSPIRACY
> AFOOT AND WE PROBABLY OUGHT NOT BE WRITING THIS SHIT DOWN FOR OTHERS
> TO SEE"?
>
> El-Oh-El.
>
You are getting ridiculous. I already gave you two examples, the Castro
plots and MK/ULTRA. What about Operation Northwoods? Why do you think
they stamp things TOP SECRET?
And in fact when the conspirators are stupid enough to be writing this
shit down for others to see which they should not be doing, they get a
letter of reprimand and a guidance letter from their superior saying,
"Do not use the word assassination in an official US document. Try to
find a euphemism such as terminate or eliminate."
> (My tiny bladder!! Dammit!)
>
>
>>>> "You obviously know nothing about intelligence agencies." <<<
>
> And you obviously need to swallow another CS&L pill (or two).
>
>
Just drink the Kool-aid. The government says it's good for you!
David Von Pein
this shit down for others to see which they should not be doing, they get
a letter of reprimand and a guidance letter from their superior saying,
"Do not use the word assassination in an official US document. Try to find
a euphemism such as terminate or eliminate." " <<<
LOL. Yeah...who would EVER in a million years be able to link the words
"terminate" or "eliminate" with "assassination"???
(My bladder! Please....stop! Even if you're RIGHT about the above
"terminate" vs. "assassination" shit....please stop! Soon! Otherwise my
bladder will never have a hope of surviving the incoming onslaught!)
ak
Well there is a piece of paper that clearly shows FBI Agent Frazier
was told to take some evidence out of the record and create a new
numbering system. Do you deny this fact? I mean the paper says
"Create new Q/K numbers." Pretty darn clear. We can speculate all
day about why. I have said I don't think the person felt he was doing
a criminal act or even covering up for the killers. He may have just
been told that the investigation against the plotters will be carried
out in secret, but that public knowledge of a plot could lead to a war
with Cuba, which could trigger a nuclear war. Indeed, the act of note
keeping just as he would in any case is in itself a form of CYA
showing he had no guilty intent and was merely following legal orders.
Also, why didn't Nixon burn the Watergate tapes? The tapes contained
smoking gun evidence that he committed a cover up, yet he didn't burn
them. Many told him to. But others told him the burning itself was a
crime, that the tapes would remain secret under executive privilege,
and also show his innocence of certain charges. All of these factors
may have played a role with JFK documents - many of which were kept
secret until the JFK movie spawned the JFK records act and forced
their release 40 years later, when many of the people involved were
dead.
Russ Burr
And incidentley, the papers did not find any "smoking gun" that anyone
but Oswald was involved.
Russ
Anthony Marsh
> On Sep 29, 10:23 pm, David Von Pein <davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:
>>>>> "And in fact when the conspirators are stupid enough to be writing
>> this shit down for others to see which they should not be doing, they get
>> a letter of reprimand and a guidance letter from their superior saying,
>> "Do not use the word assassination in an official US document. Try to find
>> a euphemism such as terminate or eliminate." " <<<
>>
>> LOL. Yeah...who would EVER in a million years be able to link the words
>> "terminate" or "eliminate" with "assassination"???
>>
>> (My bladder! Please....stop! Even if you're RIGHT about the above
>> "terminate" vs. "assassination" shit....please stop! Soon! Otherwise my
>> bladder will never have a hope of surviving the incoming onslaught!)
>
> Well there is a piece of paper that clearly shows FBI Agent Frazier
> was told to take some evidence out of the record and create a new
> numbering system. Do you deny this fact? I mean the paper says
I don't think it means he WAS TOLD. I think it was a note to himself, a
reminder. Mind posting it here?
> "Create new Q/K numbers." Pretty darn clear. We can speculate all
> day about why. I have said I don't think the person felt he was doing
> a criminal act or even covering up for the killers. He may have just
> been told that the investigation against the plotters will be carried
> out in secret, but that public knowledge of a plot could lead to a war
> with Cuba, which could trigger a nuclear war. Indeed, the act of note
I don't think that cover story was being worked that early.
> keeping just as he would in any case is in itself a form of CYA
> showing he had no guilty intent and was merely following legal orders.
>
I see no evidence that Frazier was following orders.
Anthony Marsh
>>>> "And in fact when the conspirators are stupid enough to be writing
> this shit down for others to see which they should not be doing, they get
> a letter of reprimand and a guidance letter from their superior saying,
> "Do not use the word assassination in an official US document. Try to find
> a euphemism such as terminate or eliminate." " <<<
>
> LOL. Yeah...who would EVER in a million years be able to link the words
> "terminate" or "eliminate" with "assassination"???
>
Lol. I am telling you what actually happened. How stupid the author of
that memo is is not my concern.
ak
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
[url]www.history-matters.com/essays/frameup/FrazierSpeaks/Figure3.jpg[/
url]
The exact words are "Advise lab files of new Q and K numbers"
The context is Frazier, twice, noting 7:30 PM as the time he gets a bullet
from Agent Todd, and a FBI memo saying a bullet is in transit from Dallas
at 9:30 PM, and another FBI memo saying that a bullet that hit JFK was
recovered and a bullet that hit Connaly was recovered. More context is
Connally stating in his book that a nurse picked up a "bullet" in the
operating room, which was confirmed by Prosecutor Wade stating a nurse
approached him with a bullet, coming out of the Connally OR, and asked
what to do with it - he told her to give it to law enforcement. This ties
into the whole two chains of custody issue i have posted elsewhere, I
think under the topic heading "Too many bullets for lone shooter" or
something to that effect.
yeuhd
coordinate an elaborate plan that requires the cooperation of the FBI, LBJ
Administration, Warren Commission, Secret Service, Dallas Police Dept.,
Dallas County Sheriff's Dept., U.S. military, National Archives, etc. And
they have the ability to sustain the secret over a period of decades,
using deaths and death threats where necessary.
Yet when it comes to the crucial evidence, all they can find to leave on
the sixth floor of the TSBD is a $12.78 used rifle, and the most
convincing bullet they are able to leave at Parkland Hospital is CE 399.
ak
It worked, didn't it?
Anthony Marsh
> It always amuses me, too, that these conspirators have the ability to
> coordinate an elaborate plan that requires the cooperation of the FBI, LBJ
> Administration, Warren Commission, Secret Service, Dallas Police Dept.,
> Dallas County Sheriff's Dept., U.S. military, National Archives, etc. And
> they have the ability to sustain the secret over a period of decades,
> using deaths and death threats where necessary.
>
As typical for a WC defender, you fail to understand the difference
between the conspiracy to murder and the conspiracy to cover up.
The cover up was government wide to prevent WWIII, not protect the
conspirators.
> Yet when it comes to the crucial evidence, all they can find to leave on
> the sixth floor of the TSBD is a $12.78 used rifle, and the most
> convincing bullet they are able to leave at Parkland Hospital is CE 399.
>
>
And you would never have been suspicious if the cops found a $5,000 CIA
specially made assassination rifle?
Anthony Marsh
Your URL style does not work. Just use http://...........
> The exact words are "Advise lab files of new Q and K numbers"
>
Again, as I remember and you do not correctly, this is Frazier's own
note to himself, not an order from anybody. It is part of a to-do list
of things he has to do to prepare for his WC testimony.
> The context is Frazier, twice, noting 7:30 PM as the time he gets a bullet
> from Agent Todd, and a FBI memo saying a bullet is in transit from Dallas
> at 9:30 PM, and another FBI memo saying that a bullet that hit JFK was
> recovered and a bullet that hit Connaly was recovered. More context is
Yes, there are problems with the record. The answer is not necessarily
participating in the conspiracy.
BTW, you completely ignore the possibility that one document may have
indicated an additional fragment removed from Connally not in the evidence.
> Connally stating in his book that a nurse picked up a "bullet" in the
> operating room, which was confirmed by Prosecutor Wade stating a nurse
> approached him with a bullet, coming out of the Connally OR, and asked
> what to do with it - he told her to give it to law enforcement. This ties
> into the whole two chains of custody issue i have posted elsewhere, I
> think under the topic heading "Too many bullets for lone shooter" or
> something to that effect.
>
It may not be the same bullet. And it may have been an orderly, not a
nurse as Wade assumed.
And you missed my point about other errors in Connally's book. Snip,
snip, ignore, ignore, deny, deny.
>
ak
Well, Wade said a "nurse". In 1963, a "nurse" commonly meant a female.
I don't think Wade would call a male hospital orderly a "nurse". Wade
also says the nurse was coming out of the Connally OR - Tomlinson says he
found a bullet on a hallway stretcher and mentions nothing about talking
to Prosecutor Wade.
The link I posted works for me. Not sure how to do it better.
I agree this seems to be Frazier's note to himself. Nothing to indicate
he was "ordered" to create the new Q/K numbers - but nothing to indicate
he wasn't. And I don't say Frazier was part of a plot - he was merely
doing his job. The creation of new Q/K numbers, is, to me, just one more
piece of evidence among many others pointing to recovery of two intact
bullets from Dallas.
Anthony Marsh
Wade assumed it was a nurse. That does not prove it was.
> The link I posted works for me. Not sure how to do it better.
>
I am telling you how to format the link so that people can click on it.
> I agree this seems to be Frazier's note to himself. Nothing to indicate
> he was "ordered" to create the new Q/K numbers - but nothing to indicate
> he wasn't. And I don't say Frazier was part of a plot - he was merely
You can't prove things that way.
There is no basis for your claim that it was an order.
> doing his job. The creation of new Q/K numbers, is, to me, just one more
> piece of evidence among many others pointing to recovery of two intact
> bullets from Dallas.
Could be, but we need more facts.
yeuhd
> And you would never have been suspicious if the cops found a $5,000 CIA
> specially made assassination rifle?
Are those the only two possible alternatives: a $12.78 rifle and a
$5,000 rifle? You can't imagine anything between those extremes?
Russ Burr
Historical government agencies have not worked well together. Case in
point was the Secret Service and the Dallas FBI office. The Secret Service
did it's best to keep the FBI out of loop as far as Kennedy's visit to
Dallas. Had they worked together they might have prevented Oswald from
killing JFK.
And to think that people believe these agencies coordinated the killing of
JFK with utmost secrecy and precision and kept it a secret for almost 44
years defies my imagination and as Spock said "it's not logical".
Russ
Russ Burr
You do know about the inability of most bureaucracies to operate in a
coordinated fashion such as killing a President and getting away with it
for 44 years and not one person doesn't even tell? Just look at the Bush
administration...would you say there a smoothly running administration?
Would you say their honest? And don't the secrets they usually try to pull
off usually discovered by the press. I mean the Bush situation is extreme
but I hope you get my point.
Russ
tomnln
Was it "Logical" for the FBI to Frame an innocent man for murder to
Protect the Boston Mafia?
"Russ Burr" <rdc...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:4702...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
tomnln
So, Tell us Russ......
Who killed Jimmy Hoffa?
"Russ Burr" <rdc...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:4702bed7$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
Anthony Marsh
I can imagine a lot of things, but I prefer to stick to the facts.
Oswald bought the cheapest rifle he could find.
Anthony Marsh
> yeuhd wrote:
>> It always amuses me, too, that these conspirators have the ability to
>> coordinate an elaborate plan that requires the cooperation of the FBI,
>> LBJ Administration, Warren Commission, Secret Service, Dallas Police
>> Dept., Dallas County Sheriff's Dept., U.S. military, National
>> Archives, etc. And they have the ability to sustain the secret over a
>> period of decades, using deaths and death threats where necessary.
>>
>> Yet when it comes to the crucial evidence, all they can find to leave
>> on the sixth floor of the TSBD is a $12.78 used rifle, and the most
>> convincing bullet they are able to leave at Parkland Hospital is CE 399.
>>
>
> Historical government agencies have not worked well together. Case in
> point was the Secret Service and the Dallas FBI office. The Secret
> Service did it's best to keep the FBI out of loop as far as Kennedy's
> visit to Dallas. Had they worked together they might have prevented
> Oswald from killing JFK.
>
How could they have prevented the CIA from killing JFK?
> And to think that people believe these agencies coordinated the killing
> of JFK with utmost secrecy and precision and kept it a secret for almost
> 44 years defies my imagination and as Spock said "it's not logical".
>
Then explain how any of these agencies get away with things for so many
years.
> Russ
chuck schuyler
> I think your point is that nobody can keep secrets.
>
> So, Tell us Russ......
>
> Who killed Jimmy Hoffa?
How do you know he's dead? ;)
Anthony Marsh
You guys used to get away with this crap all the time. No longer. People
have spoken up. E. Howard Hunt confessed that it was the CIA. Just
recently people have been convicted of 40-year old murders that they had
gotten away with. So your arguments are hollow. Please tell me about some
current program which is Top Secret and prove it with documents.
tomnln
http://www.whokilledjfk.net/mexcity.htm
http://www.whokilledjfk.net/Walker.htm
http://www.whokilledjfk.net/tippit.htm
chuck just Refuses to address his own evidence/testimony.
"chuck schuyler" <chu...@am-mtg.com> wrote in message
news:1191389568....@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com...