E+ Wish List: Post Your Suggestions Here

[deerfencer1]

Mgrs note:

Moved this to a new folder for obvious reasons. Please contribute all!

LH


<<Welcome to the forum Tim.

I liked Larry's suggestion about the dream list.

My wishes are the following:

1. 21 speeds
2. LiPO packs
3. Name brand bike components

m4 >>

[deerfencer]

My personal wish list--four words:

Better batteries, more range.

Of course you'll have to charge for this, so the basic 10Ah hub
battery hub bike model could remain intact for those who have modest
range needs and are looking to keep cost down. Additional 10Ah modules
that can be wired parallel and mounted on a STURDY rear rack with a
pannier option for holding multiple aux packs (up to three--one on
top, one in each side pannier)
could be offered at a competitive per module price with a solid 3-year
warranty to match Opti's.
Some sort of idiotproof plug-and-play wiring system would be
important.

Battery pack weight would obviously be critical and needs to be kept
to a minimum. I've personally ridden with up to 60 pounds or more of
battery weight in the back (ugh--not recommended!) and think that
about half that weight or less is optimal, so 8-10 pounds per module
would be ideal. My experience with pannier packs in general has been
very positive from a bike handling standpoint, but I can't emphasize
enough how bulletproof and sturdy the rear rack needs to be--namely
made of high strength steel tubing (see any serious bike touring site;
the Tubus brand racks get consistently high ratings) and attached to
the bike in three points. (I personally favor a seatpost collar AND
rear frame triangle mounts combined--see Axiom Odysee.) Think high
speed vibration over washboard dirt roads and/or occasional pothole
action. Peruse virtually any e-bike user site and you'll inevitably
come upon the "lost my battery off the rack" posts, often with
disastrous consequences.

In the end you'd be offering your customers a modular-type battery
pack system with an ultimate capacity of 40Ah or so, plenty of power
for the vast majority of us and enough to (finally!) truly meet those
fantasy ultimate range numbers of 40-60 miles that so many e-bike
makers falsely claim.
You'd also be reducing the per pack amperage draw of each module for
longer pack life and minimal voltage sag, a performance booster.

LH

[deerfencer]

P.S. Forgot to mention a lockout regen setting, or at least some way
to dampen regen to the point where it won't harm the battery packs on
steep downhills.

LH

[OptOut]

I wish for a good lighting package that drew power from the bike hub
battery. I think some states require this on mopeds and I'd like
direction signals too. Preferably all LED lights.
A 12 V takeoff for auxiliary power would be a nice option to go with
that.

Best,
Joe (mobile)

[m4]

Yeah, I second the LED lighting package.

On Mar 1, 9:01 pm, OptOut <optib...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I wish for a good lighting package that drew power from the bike hub  
> battery. I think some states require this on mopeds and I'd like  
> direction signals too.  Preferably all LED lights.
> A 12 V takeoff for auxiliary power would be a nice option to go with  
> that.
>
> Best,
> Joe (mobile)
>

> >>> m4 >>- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[miro13car]

i WOULD WISH Lithium of course and chance to buy a kit.
MC

> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Jérôme Daoust]

1) A total of at least 20 Ah (36V) in form that is easy to remove for
transport (to reduce weight on the bike rack, whith both wheels
remaining on the bike). We already know there are new battery options
coming this Fall, but unclear what they are:
http://groups.google.com/group/EplusElectricBicycle/browse_thread/thread/3662277c721aca9b#
2) Full suspension. Currently the bikes have no rear suspension.
3) Lower weight, so the bikes with battery removed for transport (but
both wheels still on) weigh no more than 50 lb.

[Nimbuzz]

-- For the Lithium packs; Besides having 10ah wieghting 10lbs in the
hub I'd like about 20 ah neatly mounted in the triangle (being easily
removable) and an option of a choice of one OR two 10 ah packs that
mount low in panniers on a rear rack = possible 50 ah total. All packs
can be added in parallel so they can share in absorbing regen. These
packs wold be A123 or anything as robust and well proven -- SAFT must
have something by now!

-- On the throttle besides normal coasting regen with ability to
choose charge rate or computer choosing a battery friendly charge rate
AND another choice where a small amount of throttle is automaticly
applied so the bike behaves as if it has a freewheel with no regen
slowing it down.

-- I'll second the quality/name brand components and LED lights for
headlight and tailight BUT would like turnsignals to be an option and
easily removeable as they would eliminate the 'stealth' factor.

-- An option to easily plug in a Cycle Analyst.

-- Some cool color options.

[Richard Papa]

Larry, the E+ has 10 REGEN settings (If I remember correctly?). So you can
turn it down to 1, way cool!

Rich

[Nimbuzz]

-- Second Larry's 21 speeds. I can't find any specs on the website but
it appears to have only the rear cogset. I could not use that as I
NEED all my gears on my TF. The Opti has only 9 at the rear but its
geared advantage matters here and it does not need more.

Unc

[Dave Macdougall]

Now that’s interesting.
I only use the large front cog on my TF. I was wondering how large I could
go and still just use the single front cog. I can't quite get the twist
throttle and rapid fire shifter to sit perfectly together so was wondering
if I could move shifter or throttle.
The bike is used just for my commute or to the Rugby club so the terrain is
fixed. They must be some hills Al.
Cheers
DaveM

-----Original Message-----
From: Tidal...@googlegroups.com [mailto:Tidal...@googlegroups.com] On
Behalf Of Nimbuzz
Sent: 02 March 2009 19:33
To: TidalForce Forum
Subject: [TF] Re: E+ Wish List: Post Your Suggestions Here

[Nimbuzz]

D, It's more than a hill -- it's a mountain! But hills exist and the
bikes must be able to handle them.

A

On Mar 2, 11:40 am, "Dave Macdougall" <dave.macdoug...@ntlworld.com>
wrote:

[Dave Macdougall]

Yep I agree but remember we have all sorts of different cars for different
jobs. I just have two hills one is 1/2 a mile the other is a mile. They are
hills not mountains
Maybe the Opti comes close to being all things ( I mean that) but it is
expensive (again it has top quality parts) The one thing we all want is a
top notch battery at a reasonable price. I have hard wired my bike due to
the connectors being a week point. I have even sealed all the connections on
the bike with self annealing tape and heat shrink. I can just about get the
bike into my truck (in case of a problem) but the rear motor and rack
mounted battery make it very awkward. I can remove the back wheel to replace
a tube (just).
For me I just want to go to work and back on my bike. That at the moment is
the only realistic wish list I have. The sticking point is the battery but I
might just have a solution On its way.
Cheers All

[bill_von]

> 1) A total of at least 20 Ah (36V) in form that is easy to remove for
> transport (to reduce weight on the bike rack, whith both wheels
> remaining on the bike).

I'd be just fine with a simple aux connector that allow us to add our
own batteries. We will always be able to get better batteries faster
than any bike manufacturer can get them to us.

> 2) Full suspension. Currently the bikes have no rear suspension.

I don't think there's much benefit to this. The hub weighs more than
the back of the bike, so suspending the bike (but not the hub) doesn't
give you much benefit when it comes to ride or shock absorption. Now,
on a bike like the Opti where the rear wheel weighs very little, dual
suspension makes a lot of sense.

[Nimbuzz]

I think Bill has two good points; 1) being able to add after market
packs is a must BUT it was also very convenient when TF had a state of
the art B pack -- and Opti's B pack is great. When the Mfgs stay ahead
of the curve like this it is very convenient to have a proven,
warranted, reasonably priced pack available for plug & play also.

2) I agree that the full suspension isn't as useful with a heavy hub.
For rear suspension on my TF I use 2.5 Hookworms that I can control
the psi on to fit the riding. The Hookworms are a performance tire
that can take up to 65 psi. Also, I know very good dirt riders that
still use hard-tails. It's not mentioned too much any more because we
covered it but many here were using suspension seatposts to eliminate
'butt shock.' The 'Thudbuster' was highly recommended by many here and
EV Tech had a much less expensive one that I've been using quite
satisfactorily in conjunction with the Hookworms.

Unc's $.02

[Jérôme Daoust]

On Mar 2, 3:04 pm, bill_von <bill...@dropzone.com> wrote:

> > 2) Full suspension. Currently the bikes have no rear suspension.
>
> I don't think there's much benefit to this.  The hub weighs more than
> the back of the bike, so suspending the bike (but not the hub) doesn't
> give you much benefit when it comes to ride or shock absorption.  Now,
> on a bike like the Opti where the rear wheel weighs very little, dual
> suspension makes a lot of sense.

That would be true if you ignore the weight your body adds to the
bike. When you sit on the bike, you are adding close to 100 lb to the
rear wheel, so that puts the weight of the "heavy" hub motor as a
small fraction of the suspended mass. It seems to work just fine for
these guys:
http://www.stealthelectricbikes.com.au

[Jérôme Daoust]

Right now, the regenerative braking level is pre-set so that when you
activate your brakes levers that level of regeneration engages.

It would be way cool if there was a brake pressure sensor and that
regeneration was poportional the the brake lever squeezing effort.
Problems to be resolved: How the mechanical brakes could be triggered
to engaged beyond the point of maximum regeneration, and how to remain
in control of front/rear braking proportion.

[Richard Papa]

I agree with this too, sorry Bill but a high-end E+ would be fantastic. But
I would add that a Thudbuster is a PROVEN addition for any hard-tail. I
tested this myself. Amazingly it steadies the bike in the fast bends! Maybe
even better then a full rear? But definitely an improvement on my S-750X.

Cheers,

Rich

-----Original Message-----
From: Tidal...@googlegroups.com [mailto:Tidal...@googlegroups.com] On
Behalf Of Jérôme Daoust
Sent: 03 March 2009 17:03
To: TidalForce Forum
Subject: [TF] Re: E+ Wish List: Post Your Suggestions Here

[Richard Papa]

How about a twist throttle that can reverse for REGEN? That way you can
control the REGEN on the fly.

Cheers,

Rich

-----Original Message-----
From: Tidal...@googlegroups.com [mailto:Tidal...@googlegroups.com] On
Behalf Of Jérôme Daoust
Sent: 03 March 2009 17:09
To: TidalForce Forum
Subject: [TF] Re: E+ Wish List: Post Your Suggestions Here

[Jérôme Daoust]

So that this discussion has increased exosure, I created a discussion
topic on the E+ forum, linking back to this one:
http://groups.google.com/group/EplusElectricBicycle/browse_thread/thread/0c1e4241f6659bca

[Jérôme Daoust]

Yes, that is probably the best thing:
A twist throttle that snaps back to neutral (even with the possibility
to "trim" neutral to eliminate the natural induction resistance) so
that one has to induce an intentional reverse twist to start
regeneration.

Jerome

> in control of front/rear braking proportion.- Hide quoted text -

[bill_von]

> That would be true if you ignore the weight your body adds to the
> bike. When you sit on the bike, you are adding close to 100 lb to the
> rear wheel, so that puts the weight of the "heavy" hub motor as a
> small fraction of the suspended mass.

Your body really isn't unsprung weight. When you sit on the saddle,
the suspension of the saddle (which ranges from padding to springs and
gel) provides a significant amount of isolation. Watch someone who is
going over moderate bumps - the rear wheel tracks the bumps but their
bodies don't even come close.

For rougher bumps, your legs are the suspension. On a road bike, when
I am about to hit potholes, I come off the saddle so that the bike
(which now weighs only 25lbs) is free to follow the contours of the
road. Thus the spokes, wheels, rims and axles are only seeing
accelerative forces due to that 25lbs, rather than the 200lbs total
weight of the bike. This effect is even more pronounced on lighter
racing bikes.

This is noticeable even on my road bike. When I load it up (shopping)
the unsprung weight becomes a big deal, and I am at much greater
danger for pinch flats on rough roads. Not because of the additional
weight (I only added 10% of the total weight of the bike system) but
because the unsprung weight has doubled. You can feel the back wheel
take a pounding due to that weight.

Compare that to my fully suspended mountain bike. I use a seatpost
clamp for a rack, and there is almost no increase in abuse on the rear
wheel when I load it up. The rear suspension is isolating the weight
of the wheel (tiny) from the weight of the load (large.)

You lose much of that benefit if you put a 20 pound wheel on a
suspension frame. It will still do something, but the wheel is going
to take a pounding.

A related example is the front wheel. When I had the original
Tidalforce front wheel, it was almost like I didn't have a front
suspension. It rarely compressed, and the front wheel tended to hit
curbs very hard. Once I switched to a standard (light) front wheel
with a frame mounted battery, the front fork behaved much more like I
expect suspended front forks to behave, and it became much easier to
climb curbs and handle bumps/rough road while I was braking.

[Jérôme Daoust]

On Mar 3, 10:50 am, bill_von <bill...@dropzone.com> wrote:
> For rougher bumps, your legs are the suspension.  On a road bike, when
> I am about to hit potholes, I come off the saddle so that the bike
> (which now weighs only 25lbs) is free to follow the contours of the
> road.  Thus the spokes, wheels, rims and axles are only seeing
> accelerative forces due to that 25lbs, rather than the 200lbs total
> weight of the bike.  This effect is even more pronounced on lighter
> racing bikes.

We agree, and I try to do the same when I anticipate a bump in the
road.

But some of the worst jolts I got (the almost-thrown-off-the-bike
kind) where the bumbs or potholes I did not see coming. This is why I
want a front and rear suspension that is always there for me.

[m4]

I just placed an order for a Crane Creek Thudbuster. I'll be putting
it on my E+.
Richard, how would you rate your Thudbuster?
M4

[Richard Papa]

It will transform your bikes! Make sure you get the right size, they can
also custom the size for any bikes (I talked to them some time ago). The
Thudbuster completely changed my ride (See Pics). It just may even be
better then a rear shock? And they look good too.

Let s know what you think when you get yours. Some REAL science went into
the Thudbuster design!

Have fun,

Rich

-----Original Message-----
From: Tidal...@googlegroups.com [mailto:Tidal...@googlegroups.com] On
Behalf Of m4
Sent: 03 March 2009 20:29
To: TidalForce Forum
Subject: [TF] Re: E+ Wish List: Post Your Suggestions Here

[Richard Papa]

Btw, when I said better than a rear shock. I was referring for your
application,

[OptOut]

Personally I'd like no suspension in trade for lower price greater
strength and lighter weight. But I ride on roads 99% of the time.

Best,
Joe (mobile)

On Mar 3, 2009, at 2:32 PM, Jérôme Daoust <EyesTo...@gmail.com>
wrote:

[OptOut]

I'm on the road again so sorry if I'm posting in the wrong place.
In the next year or 2 I strongly suspect we will see a real supercap
from eestor or one of the many other folks working on this same tech
feverishly.
That will change this whole game in many ways.
Imagine charging your bike back up in seconds (from another big
solar / wind charged cap at home). Imagine twice li's energy density.
Imagine your tesla car going 500 miles per charge. Imagine a low price.
This could all happen very soon. Or not :-)

Best,
Joe (mobile)

On Mar 3, 2009, at 4:15 PM, "Richard Papa" <papa...@btconnect.com>
wrote:

[m4]

"It just may even be
better then a rear shock? And they look good too"

I hope our guys at EMS are taking notes...

Richard, did you get the LT (Long Distance) or ST (short distance)?

I ordered the ST, hope I made the right decision.

M4

On Mar 3, 1:09 pm, "Richard Papa" <papap...@btconnect.com> wrote:
> It will transform your bikes! Make sure you get the right size, they can
> also custom the size for any bikes (I talked to them some time ago). The
> Thudbuster completely changed my ride (See Pics).  It just may even be
> better then a rear shock? And they look good too.
>

>  DSC00655.JPG
> 197KViewDownload
>
>  DSC00656.JPG
> 206KViewDownload
>
>  DSC00653.JPG
> 206KViewDownload

> > want a front and rear suspension that is always there for me.- Hide quoted text -

[Richard Papa]

Sorry but I got the LT. Also, make sure you get the right seat post size!

I am sure if you contact them ASAP you can swap over before they send.

Good luck,

[m4]

Thanks Richard,
I ordered the Thudbuster ST (Short Travel and should be receiving it
in a few days. I'll post pictures first chance I get.

M4

On Mar 3, 4:09 pm, "Richard Papa" <papap...@btconnect.com> wrote:
> It will transform your bikes! Make sure you get the right size, they can
> also custom the size for any bikes (I talked to them some time ago). The
> Thudbuster completely changed my ride (See Pics).  It just may even be
> better then a rear shock? And they look good too.
>

>  DSC00655.JPG
> 197KViewDownload
>
>  DSC00656.JPG
> 206KViewDownload
>
>  DSC00653.JPG
> 206KViewDownload
>

> > want a front and rear suspension that is always there for me.- Hide quoted text -

[m4]

What about bike frames?

I have'nt heard anyone mention frames.

M4

> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[bMF]

well, okay.
frames are good.
it should have one.

the problem with lists like this is people want it all for next to
nothing.
if the manufacturer were to include every last item on the wish list,
people would complain that it costs too much; ala optibike.
when including something in the list, maybe indicate how much more ur
willing to pony up to have it.

personally i could go for fewer gears.
triple rings in the front is a waste of space when u got a powerplant.
just my opinion but can shoe u the math exactly now much ur cuppola
hundred watts, if that, contributes in the face of a 1000W motor.

a suspension seatpost should be mandatory by law on all ebikes with no
rear suspension.
FS need only be offered on the highest speed/power models.
a rear suspension sucks energy & for up to 20 mph legal limit a
thudbuster or such is sufficient.

i guess E+ has several irons in the fire so i hope their future don't
rest entirely on selling ebikes.
however if they want to retain a presence in this market & not make
the same mistake WCL did they have to start offering some form a kit.
it is an absolute impossibily that u can satisfy everyones personal
taste with only 2 bike models or even several dozen, that's why there
are so many bike shops & variety of makes.
Even WCL saw the light perhaps too little too late towards the end.

E+ has mentioned that they don't want their quality & rep to suffer if
they were to offer kits.
When they folded, in the WCL obits posted @EVWorld a sports equipment
sales guy suggested an excellent business model for selling ebikes.
give your dealers a reaonably healthy markup (unlike TF) & train them
to to install the kit on a specified list suitable frames that can
accommodate the E+ kit to ensure the brands quality.
then the dealer has an oppotunity to upsell whatever components the Cx
might like or be able to afford without being forced to buy "the best"
of every single last component; ala optibike whether he wants/needs it
or not.

this serves as an incentive to push the sales of an electric which is
something that is lacking now at ur average bikeshop.
it saves the factory from having to fulfill wishlists like this,
trying to be all things to everyone while pleasing only some.
also the warranty responsibility is offloaded onto the dealer with the
carrot of future out of warranty work & so on, standard dealer
arangement stuf.
so if E+ doesn't want to make kits available to the general public
which is understandable, then at least make it available to ur dealers
so more people can get a taste of cutting edge tech on the bike of
their choice.

[OptOut]

I heard a rumor that WCL never actually sold a single kit.

Best,
Joe (mobile)

[bMF]

check the TFF archives.
i recall there was pix at the MSN of a member here that installed a TF
kit into a 700C wheel, to gain a few mph top speed.
not sure of the model, Trek i think.

On Mar 5, 1:47 pm, OptOut <optib...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I heard a rumor that WCL never actually sold a single kit.
>
> Best,
> Joe (mobile)
>

[remf]

bMF you are hereby awarded a MEB (Master of Electric Bikes).

Everything you said makes perfect sense. Of course this business model
wouldn't suit Optibike...but for any attachable motor it sounds very
workable.

As for Opti, the OEM pathway leads all the way down to the 400 Li at
$4,995, perhaps this will change? I would imagine it's possible for
Opti to produce a higher powered, lower component spec'd bike for a
very agreeable unit price if it were manufactured in China or Taiwan.
I think this could be achieved without cannibalizing the 800 range,
though it would go against their creed of US based production at any
cost.

[bMF]

found it, just had to search for 700C.
http://groups.google.com/group/Tidalforce/browse_thread/thread/b32b5ecf5c8a9e75/ce92ad91d0a5fcfc

like i said, WCL was too little too late, was it 3 or 4 months b4 they
shut down?
but wurst, the kit was priced like $100 less than a complete bike.
it has to be done right as part of an integrated overall marketing
plan.
maybe only sell the 20 milers as kits, save the hi-power ones for the
complete factory works with all the bells & whistles.
same bell as in the shops, just has E+ silked on for desirability.
lots of ways to go about it.

[OptOut]

He bought that kit in 2005, long after WCL was out of the bike
business. My point was it doesn't pay to develop a product (the kit)
if few sell.

Best,
Joe (mobile)

[bMF]

that's not a given (that they won't sell) simply because one attempt
failed, for some of the reasons i already outlined.
as my buddy vinny is fond of saying,
"the guy who invented the paper clip didn't make a dime.
it was the guy who came up with the innovation to put ridges on it
that made the fortune."

what is a given (imho) is that all of the turnkey ebike makers have a
limited model shelf life.
once that segment of the population whom a particular model resonates
with has made their purchase, sales fall flat & the manufacturer goes
under.
i fear that may be especially true of optibike.
then again, they sell so few to a niche of an already niche market &
aren't wholly dependant on bike sales to survive.
they can start & stop production on almost a demand basis, free from
incurring the extra cost of production interuption which a mass
producer OTOH is restricted by continuous output.

E+ doesn't need me to tell them how to run their business.
what i am telling them is that while i may be inclined to buy their
ebike, what's holding me back is if it's worth the added expense &
hassle of stripping out the electromotive subsystem, putting it into
the frame that i want & then try to sell the original frame to offset
some of the expense.
(given the WCL kit pricing experience , doing it this way would
probably work out costing less anyways.)
most people won't even entertain the idea & will look elsewhere if the
stock frame doesn't turn their crank.

On Mar 5, 3:17 pm, OptOut <optib...@gmail.com> wrote:
> He bought that kit in 2005, long after WCL was out of the bike
> business. My point was it doesn't pay to develop a product (the kit)
> if few sell.
>
> Best,
> Joe (mobile)
>

> On Mar 5, 2009, at 5:54 PM, bMF <gspi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > found it, just had to search for 700C.

> >http://groups.google.com/group/Tidalforce/browse_thread/thread/b32b5e...

[bMF]

and didn't TF shut down Oct 2005??

On Mar 5, 3:17 pm, OptOut <optib...@gmail.com> wrote:
> He bought that kit in 2005, long after WCL was out of the bike
> business. My point was it doesn't pay to develop a product (the kit)
> if few sell.
>
> Best,
> Joe (mobile)
>

> On Mar 5, 2009, at 5:54 PM, bMF <gspi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > found it, just had to search for 700C.

> >http://groups.google.com/group/Tidalforce/browse_thread/thread/b32b5e...

[deerfencer]

bMF raises some great points and I really like his idea of letting
dealers build bikes to their customer's specifications--but would also
argue that a turn-key "prefab" model or two such as EMS now carries
shouldn't be abandoned given that a lot of people don't know what they
want and would probably be happy on one of these with proper fitting.

One point I totally disagree with Big B on, though, is the less gears
things. One nasty hill, premature battery depletion, or other tech-
electric failure makes that little 30T chainring in front worth its
weight in gold (as are you legs), even if you only use that lowest
gear once (or never, given the peace of mind). The more gears and
wider range the better IMO, especially if you ride challenging
terrain.

Easiest solution for EMS? Very simple--offer the choice of either 1) a
Shimano road triple crank/chainring for those looking to do a lot of
high speed riding, especially on the 1000W models or 2) the basic mtb
triple already offered for riders looking for more off-road or hill
climbing ability.

LH