Why does Quran say, "Kill infidels" and others?

[thewayoftruth1]

First thing you do is download the Quran from our site at:
http://www.islamtomorrow.com/downloads/index.asp
Then go to the verse in question and read the Arabic, then the
English, then the transliteration (making the sounds with English
letters).
Then compare the meaning to what you have said:


Thank you for your interest in Islam and the Muslims. It is our duty
and privilege to present the truth and proof about Islam and what it
represents. We desire to clear up misconceptions and
misunderstandings
about Islam to help others see the true message that came with all of
the prophets from Adam, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, peace be
upon them all.


The message is: Laa elaha illa lah (none has the right to be
worshipped except Allah).


And before we begin to answer the question, we would like ask a
question ourselves. If while listening to the answer you find
yourself
saying something like, Gee, I didn't know that or That sounds pretty
good or I like that for me, then are you prepared to accept the
message of worshipping your Lord without any partners? After all,
that
is what Islam is really all about anyway.


_________________________________________________________


Now let us begin to answer by correcting some mistakes in the
'question' itself:


The word used most often in Quran, that is so often mistranslated as
kill; slay; or slaughter is not jihad, it is qital and if you look to
the Arabic, you will quickly understand this word in today's usage
would clearly be combat.


Naturally, just as here in the U.S. we must stand up for
righteousness
and strive to prevent oppression, aggression and tyranny. This is the
proper usage and understanding for this term, as you will discover
while passing through the tafseer and explanations by top scholars
today.


Scholars of Quran tell us the verses dealing with this topic are
specific and not intended to imply a general meaning for just anyone
to decide to go around combating non-Muslims. The early Muslims had
been driven out of their homes and turned out into the desert to
starve. After finally, relocating in Medina, verses came in Quran
instructing them to make hajj (pilgrimage) back to Makkah. Finding
their way blocked and after several years of making agreements and
treaties that the others continually broke, the Muslims were at last,
told they could now fight in combat against the tyrants who had so
horribly mistreated and abused them in the past. However, this would
only be acceptable to Allah if they remained within very specific
limitations. The word "qital" in Arabic in this instance refers to
"combat" rather than what some have used "kill" because the word
"kill" is far to general, while the word "combat" appropriately
describes what is intended by the usage in this passage. Allah Knows
Best.


It should also be noted the usage of the word "fitnah" in the same
verse denotes a horrible condition, not unlike what we find today
when
there is terrorism and tyranny against the moral and just society at
large. It would be easy to properly understand the meaning as,
"Engage
them in combat, even killing them, until the state of
"fitnah" (terrorism) no longer exists in the society and people are
free to worship Allah by their choice."


We can see these verse are not designed to promote terrorism, but
rather these are very orders from Above to the Muslims to be the
first
of those who stand out aggressively against all forms of terrorism
and
oppression.


Once this is in place, there really isn't a question anymore, due to
the necessity as we see today, to prevent and subdue enemies of
freedom, liberty and justice. In other words, we could easily say
Allah ordered believers in the Quran to wage combat against terrorism
- 14 centuries ago. And the "struggle against oppression, terrorism
and tyranny" in the Arabic language, it is called, "Jihad."


You might even say, "Islam declared the WAR ON TERRORISM over 1,400
years ago!"


[details: read explanation of Quran for verses, 2:189-193 at: www.QTafsir.com
]



>> Thanks so much for your kind question and may Allah guide all of us to the straight path to be with Him in the Next Life, ameen.


Answers: www.JustAskislam.com
Free Quran: www.islamtomorrow.com/free/

[Dave]

On Feb 29, 3:36 pm, thewayoftruth1 <bicbess2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> First thing you do is download the Quran from our site

Why would I want to do that? I don't give a rats ass what's in the
koran or the bible.

Neither one is any way towards the truth, both are full of lies.

[Scott Richard Campbell A Seeker of the God Machine]

"A picture is worth a thousand words."

Here is how some Muslims treat Christian Serbs. So much for a peaceful
religion. Remember the Ottoman empire from history....???? Justified
genocide from the Koran.

http://www.savage-productions.com/beheading-serbs.html

On Feb 29, 3:36 pm, thewayoftruth1 <bicbess2...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Scott Richard Campbell A Seeker of the God Machine]

Here is some more history for you, and truth.

http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate/

Islamo-fascism is bent on world domination through terror, war, and
religious indoctrination.

On Feb 29, 7:16 pm, Scott Richard Campbell A Seeker of the God

> > Free Quran:www.islamtomorrow.com/free/- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Scott Richard Campbell A Seeker of the God Machine]

http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate/hell.html

Instructions to Muslims about Unbelievers

Koran 9:29
Fight those who do not profess the true faith (Islam) till they pay
the jiziya (poll tax) with the hand of humility.

So here Prophet Mohammed is instructing a true Muslim to fight people
of other religions until the unbelievers debase themselves and pay tax
for their existence. So the greatness of Islam is revealed only when
follwers of other religions are humiliated.

Koran 8:12
Remember Thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with
you: give firmness to the believers, I will instill terror into the
hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all
their finger tips of them."

Here Mohammed is giving step by step instruction on how to torture and
kill Kafirs if they don't follow Islam.

Koran 9:5
"Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolators wherever
ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them and prepare
for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay
the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving,
Merciful."

In the above verse Prophet Mohammed is clearly instructing his
followers to kill the idolators in any brutal way possible until the
idolators submit themselves to Islam. Allah is indeed merciful !!

Koran 9:73
Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal
rigorously with them. Hell shall be their Home: an evil fate.

Here Mohammed is trying to justify his brutal acts. He conveniently
claims divine justification for the expression of his hatred by saying
Allah himself revealed to him personally that people of other
religions are evil and belong in Hell. Therefore, according to
Mohammed any barbaric act against the unbelievers is completely
justified.

Koran 4:144
Believers, do not choose the unbelievers rather than the faithful as
your friends. Would you give Allah a clear proof against yourselves ?

This verse clearly states that a Muslim can only befreind a Muslim.
Mohammed in order to ensure that his followers will not befriend and
get influenced by people of other religions, revealed this verse. This
verse illustrates that if a Muslim befriends a Non-Muslim than the
wrath of Allah will be on him. Therefore in Islam, people of other
religions should be treated with contempt,disrespect and cruelty.

Koran 47:4
When you meet the unbelievers in the Jihad strike off their heads and,
when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly. Then grant
them their freedom or take ransom from them, until War shall lay down
her burdens.

In the above verse, Mohammed is giving detailed instruction about how
to maim and torture unbelievers in Jihad. And finally when the Muslims
are satisfied enough after torturing and maiming the unbelievers, they
should proceed to demand ransom for the captives. All for the sake for
all-merciful Allah !!

Koran 5:33-34
The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and
strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed
or crucified, or have their hands and feet and alternate sides cut
off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their
degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful
doom; Save those who repent before ye overpower them. For know that
Allah is Forgiving, merciful.

In this verse, Mohammed devises another recipe for torturing
unbelievers. This particular recipe involves chopping off alternate
limbs and expelling the Kafirs (people following other religions) out
of the land.




Instructions to Muslims regarding Christians and Jews

Prophet Mohammed has reserved special position for certain sects of
Unbelievers in his so called "Holy Book" Koran. Those unbelievers are
none other than followers of Christianity and Judaism. I have selected
few verses from Koran to display what Muslims are taught and
instructed as far as treating Christians and Jews is concerned.

Koran 5:51
Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends. They are
friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship shall
become one of their number. Allah does not guide the wrong-doers.

In this verse Prophet Mohammed is clearly instructing his followers
never to befriend a Christian or a Jew. Because if they take a
Christian or a Jew as a friend, they will commit a wrong deed and
Allah's wrath will be on them.

Koran 5:57
Believers, do not seek the friendship of the infidels and those who
were given the Book before you, who have made your religion a jest and
a pasttime...

Here "those who were given the Book before you" refers to Christians
and Jews. Once again Mohammed is warning Muslims of all time never to
befriend a Christian or a Jew.

Koran 5:64
The Jews say: 'God's hand is chained.' May their own hands be chained!
May they be cursed for what they say!...

In the above verse Prophet Mohammed is showing his deep respect for
the Jews.

Koran 9:29
Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last day, nor hold the
forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and his messenger, nor
acknowledge the Religion of Truth from among the People of the Book,
until they pay the Jiziyah with willing submission. And feel
themselves subdued.

Here 'People of the Book' refers to Christians and Jews. The 'Religion
Of Truth' refers to Islam. So in the above verse Prophet Mohammed is
instructing Muslims to fight and torture Christians and Jews (who do
not believe in Islamic version of God) until they pay tax to Muslims
for their existence. Muslims are also strictly instructed to make the
Christians and Jews feel 'subdued'. Allah is truly benign !!!

Koran 9:30
The Jews call 'Uzayr-a son of God', and the Christinas call 'Christ
the Son Of God'. That is a saying from their mouth; (In this) they but
intimate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on
them: how they are decluded away from the Truth.

Here Prophet Mohammed is wishing that Allah's curse be on Jews and
Christians. And what did the Christians and Jews do for such special
favour from Allah ? All they did is that out of respect and love, they
called their Prophets 'son of God'.




Islamic Hell and Unbelievers

Now we will enter the Islamic Hell brought into existence by
Mohammed's hallucination and weird imagination.

Koran 98:1-8
The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn
for ever in the fire of Hell. They are the vilest of all creatures.

Here "People of The Book" refers to Christians and Jews. So according
to Prophet Mohammed, Christians, Jews and pagans are the vilest of all
creatures in the world. Islam in deed holds a high respect for people
of other religions !!

Koran 22:19-22:23
Garments of fire have been prepared for the unbelievers. Sclading
water shall be poured upon their heads, melting their skins and that
which is in their bellies. They shall be lashed rods of iron.
Whenever, in their anguish, they try to escape from Hell, back they
shall be dragged, and will be told: 'Taste the torment of the
Conflagration!'

[Dave]

On Feb 29, 7:30 pm, Scott Richard Campbell A Reeker of the Cod

Machine <drgohappy2...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
> Instructions to Muslims about Unbelievers

Like I said. I don't give a rats ass what's in that book.

[bonfly]

Oh really ? Maybe try shutting the fuck up dickface. Islam is for
dickheads

[Dev]

Funny thing, though. The Bible has the same shit in it about killing
people who disagree with your delusions. The fact that The Q'uran is
such a horrific book doesn't prove Christianity--it just proves that
Christianity isn't the _only_ religion that sucks.

[Keith MacNevins]

Why wouldn't you want to know atleast something about it? It makes you look narrow-minded not wanting to know anything at all about one of the major religions -- which has a billion adherents.

[Keith MacNevins]

That doesn't make sense. You are plainly a dickhead.

[bonfly]

Sorry Keith. I meant to say, "hang yourself."

On Mar 1, 4:05 pm, "Keith MacNevins" <kmacnev...@gmail.com> wrote:
> That doesn't make sense. You are plainly a dickhead.
>

> --
> Ambassador From Hell
> Keith A. MacNevins
> Elk Grove Village, IL USA
> copyright

[thewayoftruth1]

On 1 mar, 04:16, Scott Richard Campbell A Seeker of the God Machine

> > Free Quran:www.islamtomorrow.com/free/- Masquer le texte des messages précédents -
>
> - Afficher le texte des messages précédents -

"A picture is worth a thousand words."

ok you want pictures i ll bring to you thousands of pictures : ok you
bring this pictures of poor serbes but what about the cause of these
actions and pictures the massacre of children ,women and older man
commited by serbs in kosovo
you want examples here another one after the golf war 1 MILLION CHILD
died after the american siege yet i will not said like you did "Here

is how some Muslims treat Christian Serbs. So much for a peaceful

> religion" but i will said that this brutality is commited by the american and the serbs government not as you did by putting the blame on a hole religion ..

[thewayoftruth1]

> > > Free Quran:www.islamtomorrow.com/free/-Masquer le texte des messages précédents -

>
> > - Afficher le texte des messages précédents -
>
> "A picture is worth a thousand words."
>
> ok you want pictures i ll bring to you thousands of pictures : ok you
> bring this pictures of poor serbes but what about the cause of these
> actions and pictures the massacre of children ,women and older man
> commited by serbs in kosovo
> you want examples here another one after the golf war 1 MILLION CHILD
> died  after the american siege yet i will not said like you did "Here
> is how some Muslims treat Christian Serbs. So much for a peaceful
>

> > religion" but i will said that this brutality is commited by the american and the serbs government not as you did by putting the blame on a hole religion ..- Masquer le texte des messages précédents -
>
> - Afficher le texte des messages précédents -- Masquer le texte des messages précédents -

[Dave]

On Mar 1, 7:17 am, thewayoftruth1 <bicbess2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> ok you want pictures i ll bring to you thousands of pictures : ok you
> bring this pictures of poor serbes but what about the cause of these
> actions and pictures the massacre of children ,women and older man
> commited by serbs in kosovo
> you want examples here another one after the golf war 1 MILLION CHILD
> died after the american siege yet i will not said like you did "Here
> is how some Muslims treat Christian Serbs. So much for a peaceful

If you are claiming the way of truth, then why did you just lie about
a million children dying in the Gulf War? It is a million PEOPLE, not
all were children. And if your god is so great, why did it not stop
that killing? Apparently the Muslim's god is as fake as the christian
ones.

[Scott Richard Campbell A Seeker of the God Machine]

From reading the Koran or "How to Force Your Relgion Upon Others by
the Sword for Control and Genetic Dominance for Dummies," compared to
Christianity and other religions, in modern times, at least,

1. Islam promotes more xenophobia and racism, and obliteration of the
non-believer. (See beheading photo regarding non-believers.)
2. Islam promotes more imperialism and conquest
3. Islam promotes human rights abuse including that of women as
domesticated animals for breeding purposes

Islam from the Koran is a barbaric ideology to flood the
world with the Islamic genepool, and is not only a radical
interpretation used by Islamo-fascists.

Muslims comprise less than 1/4 of the world's population, yet are
involved in over 60% of its major wars and conflicts.

http://www.savage-productions.com/beheading-serbs.html

On Feb 29, 3:36 pm, thewayoftruth1 <bicbess2...@gmail.com> wrote:

[LL]

LL: It's amazing that there's anyone left!

On Feb 29, 7:30 pm, Scott Richard Campbell A Seeker of the God

> > Neither one is any way towards the truth, both are full of lies.- Hide quoted text -

[random]

So why are you writing this to Christians and atheists?
First, take the sentence "Islam declared the WAR ON TERRORISM over
1,400 years ago!", and convince the Muslims that it is the true, AFTER
you manage to do that, return to convince us.

[Trance Gemini]

[Scott Richard Campbell A Seeker of the God Machine]

It's really funny how the post is about Islam, and you immediately
start ragging on Christianity.....
and very briefly, and with only one post, whereas if there is a
Christian post you attack almost every word..and with many
posts.....very funny thing indeed.

> > Free Quran:www.islamtomorrow.com/free/- Hide quoted text -

[Trance Gemini]

On Mar 2, 3:12 pm, Scott Richard Campbell A Seeker of the God

> > > Free Quran:www.islamtomorrow.com/free/-Hide quoted text -

[Dev]

It's really funny how your post is about Islam, and I compare Islam to
something else, and for some reason you bitch like this is somehow off-
topic when it is clearly on-topic. But the regulars here? Well, they
know you're retarded by now.

On Mar 2, 1:12 pm, Scott Richard Campbell A Seeker of the God

> > > Free Quran:www.islamtomorrow.com/free/-Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Trance Gemini]

Just continuing my SPAM Id campaign ;-)

> > > > Free Quran:www.islamtomorrow.com/free/-Hidequoted text -

[thewayoftruth1]

TO

Scott Richard Campbell A Seeker of the God Machine

This is The reason for "Jihad" Noble Verses :


The so-called "Jihad" Noble Verses came for specific times and places.
They don't apply for all times and everybody! I can't slay you, a non-
Muslim, just because you're not a Muslim. The pagan Arabs were very
hostile people and only knew the sword as an answer. Many wars were
imposed upon the Muslims, and thus, it is only normal and natural to
find Noble Verses that deal with these specific hostile situations.
But the Message of the Noble Quran is PEACE, as clearly proven in
Noble Verses 2:190, 8:61 and 5:28 above.


The laws of war in Islam:

Muslims are forbidden from attacking others who do not attack them:

"Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress
limits; for God loveth not transgressors. (The Noble Quran, 2:190)"

Fighting in the cause of GOD Almighty those who fight us is what
"Jihad" is all about. I can't go and kill a non-Muslim just because he
is a non-Muslim. That is absolutely forbidden in Islam:

"On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any
one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief
in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any
one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole
people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear
signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses
in the land. (Noble Quran 5:32)"

"Those who invoke not, with God, any other god, nor slay such life as
God has made sacred except for just cause, nor commit fornication; -
and any that does this (not only) meets punishment. (But) the Penalty
on the Day Of Judgement will be doubled To him, and he will dwell
Therein in ignominy. (The Noble Quran, 25:68-69)"

Jihad can only be declared when the Muslims are attacked. Muslims are
not allowed to attach those who do not attack them. And even when war
breaks out, if the enemy offers an honest peace, then we should accept
it and end the blood shed:

"But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline
towards peace, and trust in God: for He is One that heareth and
knoweth (all things). (The Noble Quran, 8:61)"

And if a treaty of peace was made, then we must honor that treaty to
the end:

"Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty
(of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them
from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If God had
pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have
fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and
(instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then God Hath opened no way
for you (to war against them). (The Noble Quran, 4:90)"

"How can there be a league, before God and His Apostle, with the
Pagans, except those with whom ye made a treaty near the sacred
Mosque? As long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them: for
God doth love the righteous. (The Noble Quran, 9:7)"

[Scott Richard Campbell A Seeker of the God Machine]

I understand what you are trying to say, and realize that many Muslims
just want to live a peaceful life with their religious worldviews and
tolerate the views of others.

I hope you can work for this, and try to limit the activities of
groups like Al-Qaeda and Islamo-fascist dictators who interpret Islam
for their own selfish desires.

Like all religions, Islam arose for the survival of a group of people,
and continues because it works.

I appreciate you sharing of your beliefs.....

Can you live your life without Sharia, though?

[LL]

On Mar 4, 11:01 am, Scott Richard Campbell A Seeker of the God

Machine <drgohappy2...@yahoo.com> wrote:

The laws of war in Islam:


Muslims are forbidden from attacking others who do not attack them:


"Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress
limits; for God loveth not transgressors. (The Noble Quran, 2:190)"


Fighting in the cause of GOD Almighty those who fight us is what
"Jihad" is all about. I can't go and kill a non-Muslim just because
he
is a non-Muslim. That is absolutely forbidden in Islam:

LL: The problem, of course, is what constitutes "other who do not
attack them". Evidently a lot of Muslims think the west is attacking
them for no other reason than that we don't embrace their religion.

If people want to attack others they can always find a rationale that
can be manipulated into being an attack they must defend themselves
against. And all too often they can interpret that to mean that their
god wills it.

> > Free Quran:www.islamtomorrow.com/free/- Hide quoted text -

[Simpleton]

On Mar 4, 10:38 am, thewayoftruth1 <bicbess2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> TO
> Scott Richard Campbell A Seeker of the God Machine
>
> This is   The reason for "Jihad" Noble Verses :
>
> The so-called "Jihad" Noble Verses came for specific times and places.
> They don't apply for all times and everybody! I can't slay you, a non-
> Muslim, just because you're not a Muslim. The pagan Arabs were very
> hostile people and only knew the sword as an answer. Many wars were
> imposed upon the Muslims, and thus, it is only normal and natural to
> find Noble Verses that deal with these specific hostile situations.
> But the Message of the Noble Quran is PEACE, as clearly proven in
> Noble Verses 2:190, 8:61 and 5:28 above.
>
> The laws of war in Islam:
>

A religion of peace has a chapter on the laws of war?

> Muslims are forbidden from attacking others who do not attack them:
>

Except for those whose forefathers might have, those who draw
cartoons, wear revealing clothes, not cover their heads, have no
respect for the beliefs, ...

[Dave]

On Mar 4, 10:38 am, thewayoftruth1 <bicbess2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>

> This is The reason for "Jihad" Noble Verses :....

Apparently the Muslims are no different than any other religion in
that they do not follow the rules of their religion. Any law, or rule,
they do not like, they ignore.

[brushoff]

Isalm is still a stone age Religious, dated back in the 13th century.
Christian was not much better than.
hell with religious, you all are suck and suck .

[thewayoftruth1]

"I hope you can work for this, and try to limit the activities of
groups like Al-Qaeda and Islamo-fascist dictators who interpret Islam

for their own selfish desires. " this is true and this what the
majority of muslims are trying to do but in other hand you also have a
role in limiting the activities of groups like AL-Qaeda and this by
refusing the war that your governments declare on muslim country under
false reasons like fighting terrorism and we have the example of iraq
that doesnt have any relation with terrorism actually this war bring
violence and terror to this country and as i said earlier Jihad can
only be declared when the Muslims are attacked and this what happened
in iraq ...

[Trance Gemini]

What about the war on Afghanistan? Do you consider that war an attack
on Muslims?

[Observer]

Observer
And what think you of the Wahhabi , Should they call the shots ?

What is Jihad?
Vinod Kumar

Jihad has been going on in the world ever since Islam was born in the
seventh century but its latest manifestation has been, among other
places, most notably in Palestine, Chechnya, and Kashmir. Even, in
February 1998, when World Islamic Front issued a fatwa and a call for
Jihad to "every Muslim who believes in Allah and wishes to be rewarded
to comply with Allah's order to kill the Americans and plunder their
money wherever and whenever they find it", it did not arouse much
interest in the general public. It took direct assault on 9/11 on the
fundamental symbols of what America stands for that it created some
curiosity. Today, Jihad is, no doubt, one of the most discussed terms
in America, if not the world.

What is Jihad? What drives a man to commit such horrendous acts
against humanity? What motivates Islamic terrorists? Why do they
operate under the name of Jihad?

And "Why do Muslims blow themselves up?" are common question everyone
is seeking answers for.

Dr. Eyad Sarraj, a Palestinian psychiatrist answers (Newsweek, April
8, 2002)

"This is the influence of the Koran, the most potent and powerful book
for the past 14 centuries. God promised Muslims who sacrificed for
Islam. that they would not die. They will live on in paradise. Muslims
hold to the promise literally."

How valid is this assertion?

What is Jihad?

View of traditionalists:
Dictionary of Islam defines jihad as "a religious war with those who
are unbelievers in the mission of Muhammad. It is an incumbent
religious duty, established in the Quran and in the Traditions as a
divine institution, enjoined specially for the purpose advancing Islam
and repelling evils from Muslims."1

In an introductory note to an article "Jihad in the Qur'an and Sunnah"
by Sheikh Abdullah bin Muhammad bin Humaid, ex-Chief Justice of Saudi
Arabia and of the Sacred Mosque of Mecca, Abdul Malik Mujahid, General
Manager of Maktaba Dar-us-Salam, Saudi Arabia on the website
(www.islamworld.net) writes:

"Jihad is regarded as the best thing, one can offer voluntarily. It is
superior to non-obligatory prayers, fasting, Zakat, Umra and Hajj as
mentioned in the Qur'an and the Ahadith of the Prophet(pbuh). The
benefits of Jihad are of great extent and large in scope, while its
effects are far-reaching and wide-spreading as regards Islam and the
Muslims."

Sheikh Abdullah, ex-Chief Justice of Saudi Arabia defines Jihad as:

"Praise be to Allah swt Who has ordained Al-Jihad (the holy fighting
in Allah's Cause):

1. With the heart (intentions or feelings),

2. With the hand (weapons, etc.),

3. With the tongue (speeches, etc., in the Cause of Allah)

Allah has rewarded the one who performs it with lofty dwellings in the
Gardens (of Paradise)." 2

Other contrary Views:
Many non-Muslim modernists in the West deny that it has anything to do
with violence.

Many academic Muslims also dissociate Jihad with "Holy War". "In its
primary sense it is an inner thing, within self, to rid it from
debased actions or inclinations, and exercise constancy and
perseverance in achieving a higher moral standard" - they claim.
"Jihad is not a declaration of war against other religions and
certainly not against Christians and Jews as some media and political
circles want it to be perceived. Islam does not fight other religions"
- they emphasize.

The Council on American-Islamic Relations, a Washington-based group,
asserts that jihad "does not mean 'holy war.'" Instead, jihad is "a
central and broad Islamic concept that includes the struggle to
improve the quality of life in society, struggle in the battlefield
for self-defense . . . or fighting against tyranny or oppression."
CAIR even denies that Islam includes any concept of a "holy war."

Many other who go under the banner of modernists hold similar views on
the nature of jihad.

How is one to conclude what Jihad really means in Islam?
Ironclad definition of anything to do with Islam and its practical
manifestations can only be derived from what the basic scriptures of
Islam have to say on any particular issue.

What are the basic scriptures of Islam and why are they so important?
The single most basic scripture of Islam is indeed the Qur'an. The
next after the Qur'an are the traditions - the Sunnah -- of the
Prophet -- also known as Ahadith. The Qur'an is compilation of the
Revelation from Allah to Prophet Muhammad and the Sunnah is what
Prophet Muhammad did or said. Of the traditions, the ones compiled by
Imam Bukhari and Imam Muslim are the most authentic.

Authenticity of Imam Bukhari's work can be judged from the fact that
he is reported to have collected over 300,000 Hadiths (traditions of
the Prophet) but "chose only approximately 7275 of which there is no
doubt about their authenticity." 3 Each Hadith comes with its line of
transmission that leads directly to Prophet Muhammad or his
companions.

Why are the Qur'an and the Sunnah of the Prophet so important to
Muslims? Instead of giving my personal opinion let me say what Rafiq
Zakaria, an eminent Islamic scholar and also known as modernist
progressive secular Muslim has to say on this.

"To Muslims, the Quran is the creation of god. However, it is equally
important to remember that there could have been no Quran without
Muhammad. He is not only its transmitter but also the embodiment of
its teachings... Muhammad and the Quran are inextricably intertwined." 4

"The Quran is, therefore, regarded by Muslims as immutable and
unchangeable, not metaphorically but literally. This is a matter of
faith for them, and reason can never deflect them from it." 5 (Italics
mine) He went on to say.

After enumerating the five pillars of Islam, he echos the sentiments
expressed above in another book and goes on to observe "it (the Quran)
contains guidelines a Muslim must follow." 6

Maulana Mawdudi, a great Islamic scholar and thinker expresses similar
views. Islam stands for complete faith in the prophet's teachings. It
stands for complete obedience to the system of life shown to us by the
prophet and any who ignores the medium of the prophet and claims to
follow God directly is not a Muslim.7

Maulana Wahiduddin has also expressed similar opinions.

Human reason or direct approach to God without the medium of the
prophet makes one sinner, if not apostate from Islam. No freedom of
slightest deviation is allowed. One has to follow the teachings of the
Quran and of the Prophet.

If we want to understand why the Muslims carry out jihad, we have to
understand what the Quran and the Sunnah have to say on this topic.
The opinions of Islamic scholars and other commentators are not valid
if they are not in conformity with the above.

What do the Quran and the Sunnah have to say on the subject of Jihad?
There is no chapter devoted exclusively to the subject of jihad in the
Quran. The Ayats pertaining to jihad are spread throughout the Quran.
If one were to sort them out and present them in a concise manner, one
would, in all likelihood, be accused of quoting them out of context.
But in each of the authentic Hadis - the Sunnah of the prophet --
there is a section dealing with the practice of jihad. So let us turn
our attention to the Sunnah. On close scrutiny of the Sunnah as
compiled in Sahih Al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim, apart from the
traditions of the prophet, frequent reference is made to the Quran. So
what is recorded in these two books is both, the Sunnah of the Prophet
as well as the revelations from God. Imam Bukhari and Imam Muslim have
facilitated our work in informing us, in a concise form, what the
concept of jihad in Islam is?

Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan of Islamic University, Medina Al- Munawwara,
Saudi Arabia, the translator of Sahih Al-Bukhari, in the glossary of
Arabic words translates Jihad as "Holy fighting in the cause of Allah
or any other kind of effort to make Allah's word (Islam) superior
which is regarded as one of the principles of Islam." 8

Jihad defined:
Let us first try to find out what is Jihad? We don't have to go too
far.

The section on Jihad starts with invocation to Allah and Chapter I
opens quoting verses 9:111-112 of the Quran:

"Verily

Allah has purchased of the believers

Their lives and their properties;

For theirs (in return)

Is Paradise. They fight in His cause, so they

Kill (others) and are killed

It is a promise in truth which is binding on Him."9

Allah has made a binding promise with His believers to kill in His
cause and if they are killed they will get Paradise in return.

And again it repeats in chapter 2 "the best among the people is that
believer who strives his utmost in Allah's cause with both his life
and property and goes on to quote verses 61:10,11,12 . It says "it
(fighting in Allah's cause) is a bargain that will save you from a
grievous punishment..... He will forgive you, your sins and admit you
into Gardens beneath which rivers flow, and to beautiful Mansions in
gardens of Eternity." And calls it "The supreme achievement." 10

Indeed the promise of Gardens with Rivers and Mansions must have
sounded very alluring in the harsh desert climate of Arabia.
Evidently, it does even today.

The superiority of Jihad:
"A single endeavor (of fighting) in Allah's Cause in the forenoon is
better than the world and whatever is in it." Says Hadis 50 in chapter
5. 11

And "a place as small as a bow in Paradise is better than all that on
which the sun rises and sets (i.e. all the world)." And continues,
repeating, "A single endeavour in Allah's Cause is better than all
that on which the sun rises and sets." 12

The superiority of martyrdom is so great that "nobody would wish to
come back even if he were given the whole world and whatever in it,
except the martyr who, on seeing the superiority of martyrdom, would
like to come back to the world and get killed again (in Allah's
cause.)" 13

And what is there in Paradise? Houris. "And if a houri from paradise
appeared to the people of the earth, she would fill the space between
Heaven and the Earth with light and pleasant scent and her head cover
is better than the world and whatever is in it." 14 Who would not like
to die to be in company of such houris?

Obligations of a Believer to Jihad
What are the obligations of a Muslim of a general call to arms and
what sort of Jihad and intentions are compulsory? Most people don't
like to fight and Muslims are no exception to it. But what are they to
do when Allah says:

"March forth, whether you are light (young, healthy and wealthy) or
heavy (ill, old and poor)
And strive with your wealth and your lives
In the way of Allah; that is better for you
If you but knew. Had it been a near gain (booty in front of them)
And an easy journey they would have followed you,
But the distance (Tabuk expedition) was long for them and they would
Swear by Allah (saying)
"If we only could, we would have surely have come out with you."

Allah reprimands:

"They destroy their own souls, and Allah knows
That they are liars." (9:41-42) 15

Allah continues His reprimand:

"O you who believe! What is the matter with you that when you are
asked to march forth in the Way of Allah, (i.e. Jihad), you cling
heavily to the earth? Are you pleased with the life of this world
rather than the hereafter? .... (the verse). If you march not forth, He
will punish you with a painful torment and will replace you by another
people and you cannot harm Him at all, and Allah is Able to do all
things." (9:38-39) 16

Is Jihad obligatory
This is best explained by Sheikh Abdullah bin Muhammad bin Humaid:

"So at first "the fighting" was forbidden, then it was permitted and
after that it was made obligatory- ( 1 ) against them who start "the
fighting" against you (Muslims)... (2) and against all those who
worship others along with Allah... as mentioned in SurahAI-BaqaraSl
(II), Al-lmran (III) and Baraat (IX)... and other Suras (Chapters of
the Qur'an).

Allah made "the fighting' (Jihad) obligatory for the Muslims and gave
importance to the subject-matter of Jihad in all the Suras (Chapters
of the Qur'an) which were revealed (at Medina) as in Allah's
Statement:

March forth whether you are light (being healthy, young and wealthy)
or heavy (being ill, old and poor), strive [ hard with your wealth and
your lives in the Cause of Allah. This is better for you if you but
knew. (V.9:41). 17

Rewards of Jihad
Where would one killed in Jihad go? The Muslim killed in Jihad would
go to Paradise and "their's (i.e. those of the Pagan's will go to Hell
Fire). 18

What are the special benefits of fighting in Allah's cause?

Whoever believes in Allah and His Messenger and lives the life of a
good Muslim will rightfully go to Paradise, no matter if he fights in
Allah's cause or not. But there is a special place for those who do.
Paradise has hundred grades which Allah has reserved for Mujahidin.
The distance between each grade is like the distance between the
Heaven and the Earth. 19

And what will those who fight in Allah's cause get in Paradise?

Bat Ye'Or well known writer on Islam notes "the ideology of jihad was
formulated by Muslim jurists and scholars, including such luminaries
as Averroes and Ibn Khaldun, from the 8th century onward. For example,
Ibn Khaldun (d. 1406) stated, "..the holy war is a religious duty,
because of the universality of the Muslim mission and the obligation
to convert everyone to Islam either by persuasion or by force...".

Modernists views refuted
As noted above, Council of American Islamic Relations asserts that
Jihad is "struggle in the battlefield for self-defense . . . or
fighting against tyranny or oppression" But Sahih Muslim, one of two
most authentic traditions does not agree with it.

Self defense or oppression has nothing to do with the concept of
Jihad. It quotes Prophet Muhammad saying:

"I have been commanded to fight against people, till they testify to
the fact that there is no god but Allah, and believe in me (that) I am
the messenger (from the Lord) and in all that I have brought. And when
they do it, their blood and riches are guaranteed protection on my
behalf except where it is justified by law, and their affairs rest
with Allah."20

Quoting Koran (9:39) "If you march not forth, I will punish you with a
painful torment and will replace you by another people and you cannot
harm Me at all, and Allah is able to do all things.", Sheikh Abdullah
bin Muhammad bin Hamid of Sacred Mosque of Mecca (Saudi Arabia) writes
"Allah disapproved of those who abandoned Jihad (i.e. they did not go
for Jihad) and attributed to them hypocrisy and disease in their
hearts, and threatened (all) those who remain behind from Jihad and
sit at home with horrible punishment. He (Allah) accused them with the
most ugly descriptions, rebuked them for their cowardice and spoke
against them (about their weakness and their remaining behind).21

Had Jihad been just "striving" and "an inner thing, within self, to
rid it from debased actions or inclinations" where was the need to
"march forth"? Why would Allah accuse those who did not "march forth"
of "cowardice", and "hypocrisy and disease in their hearts"?

To scholars of Islam the message of the Koran and Ahadith is clear.

It is true that not every Muslim is engaged in Jihad. It is true not
only today; it was true during the time of Prophet Muhammad also.
Those who did not were called hypocrites and their fidelity to Islam
was in question.

And if Jihad, indeed, is "mental struggle against passion or internal
struggle" - it would be welcome, I am sure, by all non-Muslims. What a
non-Muslim is primarily interested in is Jihad that affects his (non-
Muslim's) survival. However, there is no evidence in the core
scriptures of Islam that Jihad is an internal struggle within the
self.

Yes, like any other religious ideology, Islam also would like to
improve the like of its followers, in its own way but that is nowhere
called what is known as Jihad.


Psychonomist

[Scott Richard Campbell A Seeker of the God Machine]

Saddam supported terrorism by giving $25,000 to the families of
suicide bombers who attacked Israel.
Saddam met with Al-Qaeda and gave some of them safe harbor.

Saddam use biological weapons on the Kurds and was trying to develoop
nuclear bomb facillities before Isreal took them out.

Saddam tried to overthrow Kuwait and had intent on taking over Saudi
Arabia.

Saddam was no angel and was destined to be the next Hitler.

I don't like to see the Iraqi people suffer under Hussein and then
suffer when he is gone.

We probably don't have all the information needed to decide what
justified the invasion and whether it was the right thing to do or
not.

[Trance Gemini]

I know all of that Scott.

I'm simply asking them if they have the same attitude towards
Afghanistan or a different attitude.

I'm trying to get at how this person justifies Jihad.

On Mar 5, 2:35 pm, Scott Richard Campbell A Seeker of the God

[LL]

LL:How do you explain the fact that there are so many terrorist acts
in the name of Islam--so many people claiming to be killing themselves
and others for Allah?

[LL]

On Mar 5, 10:15 am, thewayoftruth1 <bicbess2...@gmail.com> wrote:

Jihad can
only be declared when the Muslims are attacked and this what
happened
in iraq ...

LL: What was the rationale, then, behind the WTC bombings?

[Trance Gemini]

On Mar 5, 3:55 pm, LL <llp...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Mar 5, 10:15 am, thewayoftruth1 <bicbess2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Jihad can
> only be declared when the Muslims are attacked and this what
> happened
> in iraq ...
>
> LL: What was the rationale, then, behind the WTC bombings?

That was going to be my next question. Good one. LL.

[Scott Richard Campbell A Seeker of the God Machine]

Jihad doesn't not have to be justified at all, because it is in the
best interest of the Islamic gene pool. Jihad or whatever term they
want to use, is continuous war agains all infidels to promote Islam
and less of anything else. Forget about the Qur'an or what anybody
doublespeaks. They will say anything to cover up what is really going
on....

Islam uses Islamo-fascists and jihad to war on infidels while at the
same time saying that they are peaceful and moral.
Polygamy and women viewed as domesticated animals produces lots of
Muslims, great genetic strategy. If you can't kill the infidels, then
out-populate them over a few generations: Eurabia is coming. Impose
Sharia to get around indigenous legal systems, to favor Muslims as
much as possible. Cry "racism" and "discrimination" to freeze anybody
who challenges you with any kind of liberal inclination. Peaceful
Muslims look the other way...a form of support because it solidifies
their own genes and culture chances for survival.....

Christianity has used imperialism and capitalism the same way, saying
they want democracy, and peace, while they are not afraid to wage war
to achieve their goals.

The Chinese use their form of imperialism and communism and military
for similar goals.

It's a great strategy for the selfish genes, and all genetic-political-
economic-ideological groups use similar strategies to do the same. It
is the same competition/cooperation game of in-groups/out-groups that
arises from human nature. You cooperate within your in-group to
compete against out-groups. Competition involves cooperation with
third party groups.

Solution?: you don't want to hear it .. we don't have the technologies
yet........so I won't bother....but in general, people have to fight
for their way of life and ideologies, or somebody elses will be forced
upon them....its survival of the fittest on a global scale.....its all
very predictable from the principles of evolution .

> > > on Muslims?- Hide quoted text -

[Trance Gemini]

I know Scott.

I want to know how This Person explains it.

On Mar 5, 4:29 pm, Scott Richard Campbell A Seeker of the God

[Scott Richard Campbell A Seeker of the God Machine]

Why, do you think that you are going to change them or reform them?

If they see your point, they are just going to weave a delusion around
it, or just flat out deny it, to continue in their beliefs
unabated....

Watch....we are all predictable tribal brained primates!

I am no exception!

> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Trance Gemini]

On Mar 5, 4:49 pm, Scott Richard Campbell A Seeker of the God

Machine <drgohappy2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Why, do you think that you are going to change them or reform them?
>

Because this is a debating group and I'm giving them the opportunity
to debate and support their premises.

[Scott Richard Campbell A Seeker of the God Machine]

The tribal brained need order in consciousness and purpose and a
social/political/economic network that supports kinship genepools.

The tribal brained are foolish enough to believe that a heaven is
waiting for them if they are behaving, sheep-like Muslims, following
the herder without question. The Qur'an and Islam in general is an
elaborate set of teachings and excuses for dealing effectively with
the barbarianism of the 7th century, which the Muslims have adapted
for the 21st century for the same purpose: survival and proliferation
of the gene pool.


The Qur'an isn't any more sacred than Mad Magazine, and actually
makes
less sense to me....


There is no Allah. Mohammud was an illiterate tribal warlord who was
also a pedophile.


The Islamo-fascist Muslims have accelerated war on all of the Western
World and are going to be taken down and out, and put in their place
as manipulative, barbaric, backstabbing, ruthless, embarrassments of
the human race.


They wanted war. They got it. Good riddance. The world will be a
much
better, safer place when they are caged like the animals that they
are...

> into Gardens beneath which rivers flow, and to beautiful ...
>
> read more »

[Dave]

On Mar 5, 11:35 am, Scott Richard Campbell A Seeker of the God

Machine <drgohappy2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Saddam supported terrorism by giving $25,000 to the families of
> suicide bombers who attacked Israel

He was not involved with the terrorist attacks on the USA.

> Saddam met with Al-Qaeda and gave some of them safe harbor.

He gave ONE a place to stay, and then had him killed.

> Saddam use biological weapons on the Kurds and was trying to develoop
> nuclear bomb facillities before Isreal took them out.

They were not trying to build any such thing. You know that village of
Kurds that was gassed? A type of gas was used that Saddam did not have
and that Iran was known to use.

> Saddam tried to overthrow Kuwait and had intent on taking over Saudi
> Arabia.

So? That's none of our business. If Kuwait has so much money, why
didn't the defend themselves?

> Saddam was no angel and was destined to be the next Hitler.

In your dreams. He had neither the power or the resources.

> I don't like to see the Iraqi people suffer under Hussein and then
> suffer when he is gone.

No, just a different suffering. Bush's invasion killed more than
Saddam did.

> We probably don't have all the information needed to decide what
> justified the invasion and whether it was the right thing to do or
> not.

WE have all the information, it seems YOU don't.

[Dave]

On Mar 5, 4:24 pm, Scott Richard Campbell A Reeker of the Cod

Machine <drgohappy2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> The tribal brained need order in consciousness and purpose and a
> social/political/economic network that supports kinship genepools.

It sounds like that tribal brain you talk about is the basis for YOUR
bias.

[LL]

On Mar 5, 1:55 pm, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mar 5, 4:49 pm, Scott Richard Campbell    A Seeker of the God
>
> Machine <drgohappy2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Why, do you think that you are going to change them or reform them?
>
> Because this is a debating group and I'm giving them the opportunity
> to debate and support their premises.

LL: I'm glad somebody gets it! ;-)

[Scott Richard Campbell A Seeker of the God Machine]

On Mar 5, 5:08 pm, Dave <dvor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mar 5, 11:35 am, Scott Richard Campbell    A Seeker of the God
>
> Machine <drgohappy2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Saddam supported terrorism by giving $25,000 to the families of
> > suicide bombers who attacked Israel
>
> He was not involved with the terrorist attacks on the USA.
>
> > Saddam met with Al-Qaeda and gave some of them safe harbor.
>
> He gave ONE a place to stay, and then had him killed.
>
> > Saddam use biological weapons on the Kurds and was trying to develoop
> > nuclear bomb facillities before Isreal took them out.
>
> They were not trying to build any such thing. You know that village of
> Kurds that was gassed? A type of gas was used that Saddam did not have
> and that Iran was known to use.
>
> > Saddam tried to overthrow Kuwait and had intent on taking over Saudi
> > Arabia.
>
> So? That's none of our business. If Kuwait has so much money, why
> didn't the defend themselves?

Lots of money. No significant military. Saudia Arabia had US needed
oil.

>
> > Saddam was no angel and was destined to be the next Hitler.
>
> In your dreams. He had neither the power or the resources.
>
> > I don't like to see the Iraqi people suffer under Hussein and then
> > suffer when he is gone.
>
> No, just a different suffering. Bush's invasion killed more than
> Saddam did.

Many of the opposition are not even from Iraq....

>
> > We probably don't have all the information needed to decide what
> > justified the invasion and whether it was the right thing to do or
> > not.
>
> WE have all the information, it seems YOU don't.

Wake up. You don't know shit. You are another form of sheep.

[Scott Richard Campbell A Seeker of the God Machine]

This particular group is more of a verbal abuse group than a debate
group anyway... there are only a few civilized debaters that
participate.... most of the others left...

[bonfly]

Good - spot on - if you think you're a "reasonable debater" like
Deidzoeb, Mike the Bridge, Joe, Brock and the others then leave. Take
your dumb-assed God Machine with you. ACRD was built exactly for
"reasonable debators" like you.

On Mar 6, 11:42 am, Scott Richard Campbell A Seeker of the God

[Trance Gemini]

On Mar 5, 8:31 pm, LL <llp...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Mar 5, 1:55 pm, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Mar 5, 4:49 pm, Scott Richard Campbell    A Seeker of the God
>
> > Machine <drgohappy2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > Why, do you think that you are going to change them or reform them?
>
> > Because this is a debating group and I'm giving them the opportunity
> > to debate and support their premises.
>
> LL: I'm glad somebody gets it! ;-)

Clearly the person who started this thread doesn't.

Looks like we shouldn't hold our breath waiting for a reply. Lol.

[LL]

On Mar 6, 3:57 am, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Looks like we shouldn't hold our breath waiting for a reply.

LL: Mmmphhmmph!

[brushoff]

> > Free Quran:www.islamtomorrow.com/free/- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

I don't need to, they are terrorist of all mother fuckers.

[thewayoftruth1]

"Clearly the person who started this thread doesn't.

Looks like we shouldn't hold our breath waiting for a reply. Lol. "

sorry but i was busy

"This particular group is more of a verbal abuse group than a debate
group anyway... there are only a few civilized debaters that

participate.... most of the others left... " you have right Scott
Richard these verbal abuse show how the this person and his point of
view are weak

Good - spot on - if you think you're a "reasonable debater" like
Deidzoeb, Mike the Bridge, Joe, Brock and the others then leave.
Take
your dumb-assed God Machine with you. ACRD was built exactly for

"reasonable debators" like you. " to mr bonfly i hear you saying all
the time "if u don't like this and that you can leave " but i think
that i think if we abandon this group you will stay alone and then try
to find someone to abuse him

"

[thewayoftruth1]

> "Saddam met with Al-Qaeda and gave some of them safe harbor. "

i dont think that Iraq is providing support for Al Qaeda and is a
center for anti-American terrorism.

The Bush Administration has failed to produce credible evidence that
the Iraqi regime has any links whatsoever with Al Qaeda. None of the
September 11 hijackers were Iraqi, no major figure in Al Qaeda is
Iraqi, nor has any part of Al Qaeda's money trail been traced to Iraq.
Investigations by the FBI, the CIA and Czech intelligence have found
no substance to rumors of a meeting in spring 2001 between one of the
September 11 hijackers and an Iraqi intelligence operative in Prague.
It is highly unlikely that the decidedly secular Baathist regime--
which has savagely suppressed Islamists within Iraq--would be able to
maintain close links with Osama bin Laden and his followers. Saudi
Prince Turki bin Faisal, his country's former intelligence chief, has
noted that bin Laden views Saddam Hussein "as an apostate, an infidel,
or someone who is not worthy of being a fellow Muslim." In fact, bin
Laden offered in 1990 to raise an army of thousands of mujahedeen
fighters to liberate Kuwait from Iraqi occupation.

> Saddam use biological weapons on the Kurds and was trying to
develoop
> nuclear bomb facillities before Isreal took them out.

Iraq's armed forces are barely one-third their pre-Gulf War strength.
Even though Iraq has not been required to reduce its conventional
forces, the destruction of its weapons and the country's economic
collapse have led to a substantial reduction in men under arms. Iraq's
navy is now virtually nonexistent, and its air force is just a
fraction of what it was before the war. Military spending by Iraq has
been estimated at barely one-tenth of what it was in the 1980s. The
Bush Administration has been unable to explain why today, when Saddam
has only a tiny percentage of his once-formidable military capability,
Iraq is now considered such a threat that it is necessary to invade
the country and replace its leader--the same leader Washington quietly
supported during the peak of Iraq's military capability.

[thewayoftruth1]

."This particular group is more of a verbal abuse group than a debate

group anyway... there are only a few civilized debaters that
participate.... most of the others left... "

yet i think that u are one of these persons who are using this kind
of behavior look to your previous post's and replies

[thewayoftruth1]

"Jihad can
only be declared when the Muslims are attacked and this what
happened
in iraq ...

LL: What was the rationale, then, behind the WTC bombings?"

you should know that we the muslim refuse this terroristic acts from
the both sides i mean al Qaeda and the bush gov

[Trance Gemini]

Thank you for your answer and it's good to know that.

I know that there are middle of the road Muslim groups that don't
support terrorism or Al Qaeda but what is the difference between those
middle of the road groups and extremist groups when they don't come
forward and openly object to what Al Qaeda does and differentiate
their interpretations of the Qu'ran?

I'm not attacking you, I'd honestly like an answer.

Why are those middle of the road groups silent in the face of the
murder of the Producer of Submission and the Jihads and protests
launched against the Danish cartoonists?

I would have so much respect for those groups if they took an open and
public stand against the terrorists and extremists amongst them.

[LL]

LL: It should concern you, however, and evidently it doesn't. You
claim to embrace Islam, but you take no responsibility for how it is
used to justify terrorism.

You offer no solution; you and others who think as you do are a large
part of the problem--it isn't only the terrorists themselves.

> > > Free Quran:www.islamtomorrow.com/free/-Hide quoted text -

>
> > - Show quoted text -
>

> I don't need to, they are terrorist of all mother fuckers.- Hide quoted text -

[LL]

LL: So, you are justifying the attack on the WTC? Interesting.

[LL]

LL: Right on, TG! That exactly the position I take.

[thewayoftruth1]

"I'm not attacking you, I'd honestly like an answer.


Why are those middle of the road groups silent in the face of the
murder of the Producer of Submission and the Jihads and protests
launched against the Danish cartoonists?


I would have so much respect for those groups if they took an open
and
public stand against the terrorists and extremists amongst them"

sir if want to know my opinion concerning mockery of the Prophet
(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)
you should go to this link
http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11845&PN=1
and read the comments

[bonfly]

Allah is like Zeus in the sense that both are non-existent. It is a
good thing to mock Mohamud if for no other reason than that he
believed in the existence of a non-existant being. Have you blown up
any buildings lately ?

On Mar 8, 7:17 pm, thewayoftruth1 <bicbess2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "I'm not attacking you, I'd honestly like an answer.
>
> Why are those middle of the road groups silent in the face of the
> murder of the Producer of Submission and the Jihads and protests
> launched against the Danish cartoonists?
>
> I would have so much respect for those groups if they took an open
> and
> public stand against the terrorists and extremists amongst them"
>
> sir if want to know my opinion concerning mockery of the Prophet
> (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)

> you should go to this linkhttp://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11845&PN=1
> and read the comments

[Dag Yo]

> sir if want to know my opinion concerning mockery of the Prophet

First of all. No one "mocked the "Prophet", a bloody obvious "PR
stunt" (yes that is a fucking quote) is not mockery. It's satire.

Second of all, if you want your opinion heard then type it out for
us. Don't be lazy. Who do you think you are some sort of Muslim
Brock?

On Mar 8, 1:17 am, thewayoftruth1 <bicbess2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "I'm not attacking you, I'd honestly like an answer.
>
> Why are those middle of the road groups silent in the face of the
> murder of the Producer of Submission and the Jihads and protests
> launched against the Danish cartoonists?
>
> I would have so much respect for those groups if they took an open
> and
> public stand against the terrorists and extremists amongst them"
>
> sir if want to know my opinion concerning mockery of the Prophet
> (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)

> you should go to this linkhttp://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11845&PN=1
> and read the comments

[bonfly]

This from your referred to Article
Question ~ We have heard about the Westerners making fun of the
Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and mocking him.
What should our attitude be towards that? How should we defend the
Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)?.

we are prepared to sacrifice our lives in defence of the Messenger of
Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) - is nevertheless
something which brings us glad tidings of their doom, and tells us
that the end of their supremacy is at hand.

When the Muslims besieged a stronghold and its people resisted, then
they heard them mocking and reviling the Prophet (peace and blessings
of Allaah be upon him), they would sense that victory was at hand, and
it would only be a short time before Allaah granted them victory, to
avenge His Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).

A clear message was sent to the West: that we Muslims will never
accept to see our religion insulted or humiliated, or any
transgression against our Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be
upon him). We will all sacrifice ourselves for him.

Response ~
Great. So you'll sacrifice your life for a non-existent middle
eastern deity that doesn't exist. Sounds a lot like christianity.
Both are mystery religions created by ancient sand blasted goatherders
from the middle east. Your religion is as obscene as christianity.

On Mar 8, 7:17 pm, thewayoftruth1 <bicbess2...@gmail.com> wrote:

> "I'm not attacking you, I'd honestly like an answer.
>
> Why are those middle of the road groups silent in the face of the
> murder of the Producer of Submission and the Jihads and protests
> launched against the Danish cartoonists?
>
> I would have so much respect for those groups if they took an open
> and
> public stand against the terrorists and extremists amongst them"
>
> sir if want to know my opinion concerning mockery of the Prophet
> (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)

> you should go to this linkhttp://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11845&PN=1
> and read the comments

[bonfly]

and as per that "clear message" (A clear message was sent to the West:

that we Muslims will never accept to see our religion insulted or
humiliated, or any transgression against our Messenger (peace and
blessings of Allaah be upon him). We will all sacrifice ourselves for

him).

What message would that have been, Abdullah ? 9/11 ? Madrid ?
London ?

On Mar 8, 7:17 pm, thewayoftruth1 <bicbess2...@gmail.com> wrote:

> "I'm not attacking you, I'd honestly like an answer.
>
> Why are those middle of the road groups silent in the face of the
> murder of the Producer of Submission and the Jihads and protests
> launched against the Danish cartoonists?
>
> I would have so much respect for those groups if they took an open
> and
> public stand against the terrorists and extremists amongst them"
>
> sir if want to know my opinion concerning mockery of the Prophet
> (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)

> you should go to this linkhttp://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11845&PN=1
> and read the comments

[Trance Gemini]

I'd prefer it if you simply explained to me.

I don't like to go to links because some have malware associated with
them.

On Mar 8, 4:17 am, thewayoftruth1 <bicbess2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "I'm not attacking you, I'd honestly like an answer.
>
> Why are those middle of the road groups silent in the face of the
> murder of the Producer of Submission and the Jihads and protests
> launched against the Danish cartoonists?
>
> I would have so much respect for those groups if they took an open
> and
> public stand against the terrorists and extremists amongst them"
>
> sir if want to know my opinion  concerning mockery of the Prophet
> (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)

> you should go to this linkhttp://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11845&PN=1
> and read the comments

[Trance Gemini]

You call yourself thewayofthetruth1.

I'm willing to listen and hear you out.

But I want your explanation so that I can debate it here on this site
and so there are no misunderstandings and we are both clear about our
opinions.

So please explain here, in your own words, what it is you believe and
why, so that we can understand each other clearly.

[thewayoftruth1]

i is obvious that this repulsive cartoons depicting the Prophet have
violated the sanctity of 1.5 billion Muslims around the world and
their feelings.... This has exposed those who are actually promoting
extremism, violence and hatred between peoples and i emphasized the
need to activate international resolutions that condemn and punish
such crimes as defamation of religions and prophets.and i think that
anytype of art that portrays the image of any prophet is an offense...we
can observe and note the behavior that follows after such act. Take
for instance the picture of Jesus (pbuh)...how many times have you seen
"his" image on the media being mocked at ? in many occasion "his"
image has even been created into a cartoon to humor people...this is
absolute disrespect...in any circumstances we should not allow anytype
of mockery of any prophet (pbuh and Allah 's mercy)
and i belive also that Western countries and organizations were
adopting double standards on the issue of Danish cartoons allowing
abuse of Muslim sanctities and their Prophet by claiming that this the
freedom of speech but where is this freedom when dealing with the
holocaust not by denying it by just saying that the number of people
killed in this sad accident is exaggerated !!!

[LL]

LL: Do you mean that running planes into buildings and killing people
with suicide bombers is not mocking the people of the west?

If you really don't want your prophet to be mocked, Muslims should
stop acting like idiots, stop running planes into buildings and stop
suicide bombings. And every Muslim should be considered to be mocking
the prophet when they do these things and they should all be condemned
by every other Muslim. Yet they are not.

[Trance Gemini]

On Mar 8, 1:11 pm, thewayoftruth1 <bicbess2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> i is obvious that this repulsive cartoons depicting the Prophet have
> violated the sanctity of 1.5 billion Muslims around the world and
> their feelings.... This has exposed those who are actually promoting
> extremism, violence and hatred between peoples and i emphasized the
> need to activate international resolutions that condemn and punish
> such crimes as defamation of religions and prophets.and i think that
> anytype of art that portrays the image of any prophet is an offense...we
> can observe and note the behavior that follows after such act. Take
> for instance the picture of Jesus (pbuh)...how many times have you seen
> "his" image on the media being mocked at ? in many occasion "his"
> image has even been created into a cartoon to humor people...this is
> absolute disrespect...in any circumstances we should not allow anytype
> of mockery of any prophet (pbuh and Allah 's mercy)

That may be true but I don't see the Christians complaining. Why not?

Because they realize that not everyone is Christian. Those that don't
believe in those things are not required to follow the restrictions
that those who believe follow.

So because you find it insulting and someone else does not, does that
other person have no rights? Or do they only have the rights you wish
to ascribe to them?

Many muslims also find it insulting when women do not wear a birka or
hijad.

Does that mean that all women have to wear a birka or hijad so that we
don't offend the muslims?

> and i belive also that Western countries and organizations were
> adopting double standards on the issue of Danish cartoons allowing
> abuse of Muslim sanctities and their Prophet by claiming that this the
> freedom of speech but where is this freedom when dealing with the
> holocaust not by denying it by just saying that the number of people
> killed in this sad accident is  exaggerated !!!

Nazis have freedom of speech. A Nazi will not be arrested in the US
for stating his beliefs.

He will be arrested if he attacks a Jew or a Synagogue.

Anyone attacking a Mosque will also be arrested.

But we have freedom of speech here and we expect all including Muslims
to respect that.

Why do you expect that we should respect your beliefs when you Refuse
to respect ours?

[ZonkTheBear]

On 8 Mar, 10:17, thewayoftruth1 <bicbess2...@gmail.com> wrote:
<snip>

> sir if want to know my opinion concerning mockery of the Prophet
> (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)

> you should go to this linkhttp://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11845&PN=1
> and read the comments

One of the major problems in not that muslims were offended by the
cartoons but rather the fact that danish muslims used the incident to
incite an uproar and willfully creating a "religious war" between
muslims and non-muslims. In the process they even included pictures
that never were published as pictures of mohammed but which they
knowingly lied about being so. I have shown this in an earlier post:

http://groups.google.com/group/Atheism-vs-Christianity/msg/671b660ed72633d5

Now, please explain to me why these mullahs willfully would deceive
their fellow muslims if not for the sole purpose of creating hate
against non-muslims?

ZtB

On 8 Mar, 10:17, thewayoftruth1 <bicbess2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "I'm not attacking you, I'd honestly like an answer.
>
> Why are those middle of the road groups silent in the face of the
> murder of the Producer of Submission and the Jihads and protests
> launched against the Danish cartoonists?
>
> I would have so much respect for those groups if they took an open
> and
> public stand against the terrorists and extremists amongst them"
>
> sir if want to know my opinion  concerning mockery of the Prophet
> (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)

> you should go to this linkhttp://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11845&PN=1
> and read the comments

[ZonkTheBear]

One country may find it perfectly justified to stone women to death
for being raped while another country finds it to be a despicable act
of barbarism. The nice thing is that the stoning barbarians can't
impose their distorted views of justice onto the citizens of a society
with a different moral perspective.

If I want to do something in _my_ country that is not forbidden by
_secular_ laws in _my_ country, there is nothing you can do to make me
stop doing it just because it is against some religious laws or
because it somehow "violates the sanctity" of religious people! You
can preach and pray and spend your whole life in submission to your
god(s) as long as you don't let it interfere with those who don't
share your religious beliefs, but as soon as you do that, I will fight
you to the bitter end!

I would like to mention an incident from the hospital here in my home
town:

In the childrens ward, they had put up cute drawings of animals on the
doors so that kids too young to read could find their rooms. One of
the rooms had a drawing of a pig and suddenly some muslim leader
stated that it was offensive to the whole muslim society and that the
picture had to be removed.

Ok, he has a right to say what he wants but what really pi**ed me off
was that they actually removed the picture "to avoid unnecessary hard
feelings" (approximate translation). Gimme a break! This was nothing
but submissive toadyism and I am just waiting to see what will be
next...

If you want to believe in a god, ok, but don't you try to force me to
respect it at face value. Respect is earned and is _not_ default. This
goes for _any_ religion although muslims seem to be the ones most
easily insulted.

I would like to hear your opinion on these two questions:

1) Do you believe that muslims have a right to dictate what pictures
are to be used on hospital doors in a non-islamic country?

2) Do you believe that muslims have a right to dictate _any_ change in
behaviour from non-muslims just because muslims feel offended by
certain behaviour or actions?


ZtB

[Simpleton]

On Mar 8, 10:11 am, thewayoftruth1 <bicbess2...@gmail.com> wrote:

> i is obvious that this repulsive cartoons depicting the Prophet have
> violated the sanctity of 1.5 billion Muslims around the world and
> their feelings.... This has exposed those who are actually promoting
> extremism, violence and hatred between peoples and i emphasized the
> need to activate international resolutions that condemn and punish
> such crimes as defamation of religions and prophets.and i think that
> anytype of art that portrays the image of any prophet is an offense...we
> can observe and note the behavior that follows after such act. Take
> for instance the picture of Jesus (pbuh)...how many times have you seen
> "his" image on the media being mocked at ? in many occasion "his"
> image has even been created into a cartoon to humor people...this is
> absolute disrespect...in any circumstances we should not allow anytype
> of mockery of any prophet (pbuh and Allah 's mercy)

jihad?

> and i belive also that Western countries and organizations were
> adopting double standards on the issue of Danish cartoons allowing
> abuse of Muslim sanctities and their Prophet by claiming that this the
> freedom of speech but where is this freedom when dealing with the
> holocaust not by denying it by just saying that the number of people
> killed in this sad accident is exaggerated !!!

Danish cartoons are exercise of free speech.

"Behead those who do not think that Islam is a religion of peace"

[Trance Gemini]

thewayofthetruth1.

If you are truly seeking the way of the truth, I'd also like to point
something out to you.

We, in North America, have laws which respect the human rights and
dignity of all.

This includes the Muslim community.

You, as a Muslim have the following rights:

1. To practice your religion fully.
2. To never be harassed because of your faith.
3. To never be discriminated against because of your faith.
4. To live in dignity according to your beliefs.

If anyone attacks you on this basis or physically attacks you because
you are a Muslim or physically attacks your Mosque because it is a
Muslim place of worship, that person will be not only be put in jail,
but will receive a longer sentence because to launch an attack based
on religious belief is a Hate Crime.

North American secular law gives you these rights if you live anywhere
in North America.

You, as a Muslim, are afforded similar rights in Europe and the UK.

Now, to say that we do not respect Muslims and their beliefs as you
can see by the facts I've shown you is simply not the case.

Not only that but, I as a non-believer have fewer rights than you
because I'm not religious and therefore am not covered by the above.

If I'm attacked physically or for my beliefs the person will be jailed
under normal criminal law.

Now, on top of this, you are demanding that those who are non-
believers should also be required to recognize your laws and religious
requirements and follow them.

That is what you are asking us to do when you attempt to restrict our
freedom of speech in accordance with your religious requirements.

We, in the West, respect the Muslim community and their right to their
beliefs. That is a fact whether you agree with it or not.

You, as a Muslim, on the other hand, do not seem to respect our right
to not believe and not to follow your religious restrictions.

Respect in any society is a two way street. It must occur both ways,
if it doesn't inequalities occur.

Secular societies work to eliminate inequalities.

We respect you, your culture, your religion, and your rights.

We want you to do the same and respect us, our culture, our beliefs,
and our rights.

Is that really too much to ask?

On Mar 8, 1:11 pm, thewayoftruth1 <bicbess2...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Multiverse]

>>Your religion is as obscene as christianity.

clearly much more obscene!

> > and read the comments- Hide quoted text -

[Multiverse]

i emphasized the
> need to activate international resolutions that condemn and punish
> such crimes as defamation of religions and prophets.

punishment! for cartoons no less! off with their heads perhaps,
abdul?

>in any circumstances we should not allow anytype
> of mockery of any prophet

of course not. mockery might lead to a loss of power and control
founded in such boogie men.

On Mar 8, 1:11 pm, thewayoftruth1 <bicbess2...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Multiverse]

I caught up to this thread late but you did a lot of nice work here.
good job!

On Mar 5, 7:24 pm, Scott Richard Campbell A Seeker of the God
Machine <drgohappy2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> The tribal brained need order in consciousness and purpose and a
> social/political/economic network that supports kinship genepools.
>
> The tribal brained are foolish enough to believe that a heaven is
> waiting for them if they are behaving, sheep-like Muslims, following
> the herder without question.  The Qur'an and Islam in general is an
> elaborate set of teachings and excuses for dealing effectively with
> the barbarianism of the 7th century, which the Muslims have adapted
> for the 21st century for the same purpose: survival and proliferation
> of the gene pool.
>
> The Qur'an isn't any more sacred than Mad Magazine, and actually
> makes
> less sense to me....
>
> There is no Allah. Mohammud was an illiterate tribal warlord who was
> also a pedophile.
>
> The Islamo-fascist Muslims have accelerated war on all of the Western
> World and are going to be taken down and out,  and put in their place
> as manipulative, barbaric, backstabbing, ruthless, embarrassments of
> the human race.
>
> They wanted war. They got it.  Good riddance. The world will be a
> much
> better, safer place when they are caged like the animals that they
> are...
>
> On Mar 5, 11:03 am, Observer <mayors...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Mar 5, 10:15 am, thewayoftruth1 <bicbess2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > "I hope you can work for this, and try to limit the activities of
> > > groups like Al-Qaeda and Islamo-fascist dictators who interpret Islam
> > > for their own selfish desires. " this is true and this what the
> > > majority of muslims are trying to do but in other hand you also have a
> > > role in limiting the activities of groups like AL-Qaeda and this by
> > > refusing the war that your governments declare on muslim country under
> > > false reasons like fighting terrorism and we have the example of iraq
> > > that doesnt have  any relation with terrorism actually this war bring
> > > violence and  terror to this country and as i said earlier Jihad can

> > > only be declared when the Muslims are attacked and this what  happened
> > > in iraq ...
>

> > Observer
> > And what think you of the Wahhabi , Should they call the shots ?
>
> > What is Jihad?
> > Vinod Kumar
>
> > Jihad has been going on in the world ever since Islam was born in the
> > seventh century but its latest manifestation has been, among other
> > places, most notably in Palestine, Chechnya, and Kashmir. Even, in
> > February 1998, when World Islamic Front issued a fatwa and a call for
> > Jihad to "every Muslim who believes in Allah and wishes to be rewarded
> > to comply with Allah's order to kill the Americans and plunder their
> > money wherever and whenever they find it", it did not arouse much
> > interest in the general public. It took direct assault on 9/11 on the
> > fundamental symbols of what America stands for that it created some
> > curiosity. Today, Jihad is, no doubt, one of the most discussed terms
> > in America, if not the world.
>
> > What is Jihad? What drives a man to commit such horrendous acts
> > against humanity? What motivates Islamic terrorists? Why do they
> > operate under the name of Jihad?
>
> > And "Why do Muslims blow themselves up?" are common question everyone
> > is seeking answers for.
>
> > Dr. Eyad Sarraj, a Palestinian psychiatrist answers (Newsweek, April
> > 8, 2002)
>
> > "This is the influence of the Koran, the most potent and powerful book
> > for the past 14 centuries. God promised Muslims who sacrificed for
> > Islam. that they would not die. They will live on in paradise. Muslims
> > hold to the promise literally."
>
> > How valid is this assertion?
>
> > What is Jihad?
>
> > View of traditionalists:
> > Dictionary of Islam defines jihad as "a religious war with those who
> > are unbelievers in the mission of Muhammad. It is an incumbent
> > religious duty, established in the Quran and in the Traditions as a
> > divine institution, enjoined specially for the purpose advancing Islam
> > and repelling evils from Muslims."1
>
> > In an introductory note to an article "Jihad in the Qur'an and Sunnah"
> > by Sheikh Abdullah bin Muhammad bin Humaid, ex-Chief Justice of Saudi
> > Arabia and of the Sacred Mosque of Mecca, Abdul Malik Mujahid, General
> > Manager of Maktaba Dar-us-Salam, Saudi Arabia on the website
>
> > (www.islamworld.net) writes:
>
> > "Jihad is regarded as the best thing, one can offer voluntarily. It is
> > superior to non-obligatory prayers, fasting, Zakat, Umra and Hajj as
> > mentioned in the Qur'an and the Ahadith of the Prophet(pbuh). The
> > benefits of Jihad are of great extent and large in scope, while its
> > effects are far-reaching and wide-spreading as regards Islam and the
> > Muslims."
>
> > Sheikh Abdullah, ex-Chief Justice of Saudi Arabia defines Jihad as:
>
> > "Praise be to Allah swt Who has ordained Al-Jihad (the holy fighting
> > in Allah's Cause):
>
> > 1. With the heart (intentions or feelings),
>
> > 2. With the hand (weapons, etc.),
>
> > 3. With the tongue (speeches, etc., in the Cause of Allah)
>
> > Allah has rewarded the one who performs it with lofty dwellings in the
> > Gardens (of Paradise)." 2
>
> > Other contrary Views:
> > Many non-Muslim modernists in the West deny that it has anything to do
> > with violence.
>
> > Many academic Muslims also dissociate Jihad with "Holy War". "In its
> > primary sense it is an inner thing, within self, to rid it from
> > debased actions or inclinations, and exercise constancy and
> > perseverance in achieving a higher moral standard" - they claim.
> > "Jihad is not a declaration of war against other religions and
> > certainly not against Christians and Jews as some media and political
> > circles want it to be perceived. Islam does not fight other religions"
> > - they emphasize.
>
> > The Council on American-Islamic Relations, a Washington-based group,
> > asserts that jihad "does not mean 'holy war.'" Instead, jihad is "a
> > central and broad Islamic concept that includes the struggle to
> > improve the quality of life in society, struggle in the battlefield
> > for self-defense . . . or fighting against tyranny or oppression."
> > CAIR even denies that Islam includes any concept of a "holy war."
>
> > Many other who go under the banner of modernists hold similar views on
> > the nature of jihad.
>
> > How is one to conclude what Jihad really means in Islam?
> > Ironclad definition of anything to do with Islam and its practical
> > manifestations can only be derived from what the basic scriptures of
> > Islam have to say on any particular issue.
>
> > What are the basic scriptures of Islam and why are they so important?
> > The single most basic scripture of Islam is indeed the Qur'an. The
> > next after the Qur'an are the traditions - the Sunnah -- of the
> > Prophet -- also known as Ahadith. The Qur'an is compilation of the
> > Revelation from Allah to Prophet Muhammad and the Sunnah is what
> > Prophet Muhammad did or said. Of the traditions, the ones compiled by
> > Imam Bukhari and Imam Muslim are the most authentic.
>
> > Authenticity of Imam Bukhari's work can be judged from the fact that
> > he is reported to have collected over 300,000 Hadiths (traditions of
> > the Prophet) but "chose only approximately 7275 of which there is no
> > doubt about their authenticity." 3 Each Hadith comes with its line of
> > transmission that leads directly to Prophet Muhammad or his
> > companions.
>
> > Why are the Qur'an and the Sunnah of the Prophet so important to
> > Muslims? Instead of giving my personal opinion let me say what Rafiq
> > Zakaria, an eminent Islamic scholar and also known as modernist
> > progressive secular Muslim has to say on this.
>
> > "To Muslims, the Quran is the creation of god. However, it is equally
> > important to remember that there could have been no Quran without
> > Muhammad. He is not only its transmitter but also the embodiment of
> > its teachings... Muhammad and the Quran are inextricably intertwined." 4
>
> > "The Quran is, therefore, regarded by Muslims as immutable and
> > unchangeable, not metaphorically but literally. This is a matter of
> > faith for them, and reason can never deflect them from it." 5 (Italics
> > mine) He went on to say.
>
> > After enumerating the five pillars of Islam, he echos the sentiments
> > expressed above in another book and goes on to observe "it (the Quran)
> > contains guidelines a Muslim must follow." 6
>
> > Maulana Mawdudi, a great Islamic scholar and thinker expresses similar
> > views. Islam stands for complete faith in the prophet's teachings. It
> > stands for complete obedience to the system of life shown to us by the
> > prophet and any who ignores the medium of the prophet and claims to
> > follow God directly is not a Muslim.7
>
> > Maulana Wahiduddin has also expressed similar opinions.
>
> > Human reason or direct approach to God without the medium of the
> > prophet makes one sinner, if not apostate from Islam. No freedom of
> > slightest deviation is allowed. One has to follow the teachings of the
> > Quran and of the Prophet.
>
> > If we want to understand why the Muslims carry out jihad, we have to
> > understand what the Quran and the Sunnah have to say on this topic.
> > The opinions of Islamic scholars and other commentators are not valid
> > if they are not in conformity with the above.
>
> > What do the Quran and the Sunnah have to say on the subject of Jihad?
> > There is no chapter devoted exclusively to the subject of jihad in the
> > Quran. The Ayats pertaining to jihad are spread throughout the Quran.
> > If one were to sort them out and present them in a concise manner, one
> > would, in all likelihood, be accused of quoting them out of context.
> > But in each of the authentic Hadis - the Sunnah of the prophet --
> > there is a section dealing with the practice of jihad. So let us turn
> > our attention to the Sunnah. On close scrutiny of the Sunnah as
> > compiled in Sahih Al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim, apart from the
> > traditions of the prophet, frequent reference is made to the Quran. So
> > what is recorded in these two books is both,
>
> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -

[philosophy]

TG
I think many people can see the difference between a Muslim
who practices their religion and allows others to practice theirs,
or not practice, as the case may be. However, when a Muslim
carries a fundamentalist attitude in their heart, there is no
respect for anybody else. Basically, it seems, that even the
non-fundamentalist Muslim is at risk of being killed, as well
as the "infidel".
So there we have it - no respect, no give and take, no live
and let live, no love, no peace, nothing but disrespect,
demanding, whining, powerhungry, death seeking, hate,
and war. Well, I think these people should not be accepted
into western societies, because they are fundamentally
against freedom and what it stands for.
It may be harsh, but that is what I feel. Forget "their
rights", what about "our rights in our own countries?"

[Multiverse]

> I think many people can see the difference between a Muslim
> who practices their religion and allows others to practice theirs,
> or not practice, as the case may be. However, when a Muslim
> carries a fundamentalist attitude in their heart, there is no
> respect for anybody else. Basically, it seems, that even the
> non-fundamentalist Muslim is at risk of being killed, as well
> as the "infidel".
> So there we have it - no respect, no give and take, no live
> and let live, no love, no peace, nothing but disrespect,
> demanding, whining, powerhungry, death seeking, hate,
> and war. Well, I think these people should not be accepted
> into western societies, because they are fundamentally
> against freedom and what it stands for.
> It may be harsh, but that is what I feel. Forget "their
> rights", what about "our rights in our own countries?"

Well said!

> > > killed in this sad accident is  exaggerated !!!- Hide quoted text -

[bonfly]

Your religion is pretty piss weak if a single cartoon can offend 1.5
billion of your mob.

[Trance Gemini]

On Mar 8, 6:27 pm, philosophy <smwil...@tpg.com.au> wrote:

> TG
> I think many people can see the difference between a Muslim
> who practices their religion and allows others to practice theirs,
> or not practice, as the case may be.  However, when a Muslim
> carries a fundamentalist attitude in their heart, there is no
> respect for anybody else.  Basically, it seems, that even the
> non-fundamentalist Muslim is at risk of being killed, as well
> as the "infidel".
> So there we have it - no respect, no give and take, no live
> and let live, no love, no peace, nothing but disrespect,
> demanding, whining, powerhungry, death seeking, hate,
> and war.  Well, I think these people should not be accepted
> into western societies, because they are fundamentally
> against freedom and what it stands for.
> It may be harsh, but that is what I feel.  Forget "their
> rights", what about "our rights in our own countries?"

That is exactly the point. Thanks Philosophy. You made it well.

These people are not even asking, lobbying, or invoking the democratic
process!

They're demanding under threat of violence!

[philosophy]

Yes, I will use the words of Multiverse:
Punishment! for cartoons no less - off with their heads
abdul?
The west is not all milk and honey. I am the first to
admit that. However, we don't currently have the
"religious police" with their big, heavy "Thou shalt not
stick". We don't have people being murdered because
they want to draw a cartoon about a Prophet or paint
a picture such as Piss Christ. We do have our
citizens being shocked (perhaps) by such things, but
killing them for doing it - absolutely not. This is part
of freedom of expression. People have the choice to
look at such things, or not. No one is "imposing"
anything on them.
And you rightly brought up another fact.
Democracy. The old adage says "Democracy is
it's own worst enemy". There is a lot of truth in that.
However, with democracy we can lobby, we can ask
and we can put out petitions and plead with our
law makers. We can also invoke the process by
voting out people we don't believe are doing the
right thing. Sometimes those people we disagree
with even get back into power, but do we go out and
kill them? No.
Well, guys, that's my rant for the day. Sorry, but I
do think we, who are literally blessed to live in free
societies, sometimes need to stand up and say why
they are free, and defend them with the pen.

[Trance Gemini]

On Mar 8, 6:46 pm, bonfly <anub...@aapt.net.au> wrote:
> Your religion is pretty piss weak if a single cartoon can offend 1.5
> billion of your mob.

I don't think they've even bothered to look at the cartoons to see if
they are in fact offensive!

[philosophy]

TG
That's probably correct.
I was driving a young Indonesian Muslim back home from Uni one
day and the conversations got around to Salman Rushdie and the
fatwah on him. I made my point that Satanic Verses was simply a
story, which I had read, and frankly I saw absolutely nothing in it.
In fact, I found it quite boring, as stories go. I asked him if he
had
read it. No, he said, and he agreed that the fatwah should be
carried out. Why, I asked? Because, said he, he had been told
that he was not to read the book, and that it contained things in
it he was not supposed to see.
Well, said I, you are accepting something that someone else said,
and the ramification of it is that a man could lose his life because
of that. Not fair or just as far as I was concerned.
So we changed the subject.
But, it just shows you the mentality of some. And, I would like to
point out that this young fellow was by no means a radical. In fact
quite he opposite, so hence me disgust.

[Dave]

On Mar 8, 1:17 am, thewayoftruth1 <bicbess2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> .....

> sir if want to know my opinion concerning mockery of the Prophet

Mo needs to be mocked. He was a fucking asshole. Your prophet was only
interested in profit and power.

[Dave]

On Mar 8, 10:11 am, thewayoftruth1 <bicbess2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> i is obvious that this repulsive cartoons depicting the Prophet have
> violated the sanctity of 1.5 billion Muslims around the world and

> their feelings.... .....

And haven't you noticed - NO ONE GIVES A DAMN. You need to grow a
thicker skin. Everyone in the world has the right to say whatever they
want about your mohamed. You can make yourself upset all you want,
just keep it to yourself.

[Dave]

On Mar 5, 5:39 pm, Scott Richard Campbell A Seeker of the God
Machine <drgohappy2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Mar 5, 5:08 pm, Dave <dvor...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Mar 5, 11:35 am, Scott Richard Campbell A Seeker of the God
>
> > Machine <drgohappy2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > Saddam supported terrorism by giving $25,000 to the families of
> > > suicide bombers who attacked Israel
>
> > He was not involved with the terrorist attacks on the USA.
>
> > > Saddam met with Al-Qaeda and gave some of them safe harbor.
>
> > He gave ONE a place to stay, and then had him killed.
>
> > > Saddam use biological weapons on the Kurds and was trying to develoop
> > > nuclear bomb facillities before Isreal took them out.
>
> > They were not trying to build any such thing. You know that village of
> > Kurds that was gassed? A type of gas was used that Saddam did not have
> > and that Iran was known to use.
>
> > > Saddam tried to overthrow Kuwait and had intent on taking over Saudi
> > > Arabia.
>
> > So? That's none of our business. If Kuwait has so much money, why
> > didn't the defend themselves?
>
> Lots of money. No significant military. Saudia Arabia had US needed
> oil.

So? That did not give bush the right to invade Iraq.

> > > Saddam was no angel and was destined to be the next Hitler.
>
> > In your dreams. He had neither the power or the resources.
>
> > > I don't like to see the Iraqi people suffer under Hussein and then
> > > suffer when he is gone.
>
> > No, just a different suffering. Bush's invasion killed more than
> > Saddam did.
>
> Many of the opposition are not even from Iraq....

There was NO "opposition" forces in Iraq until bush invaded. He caused
a civil war. And just what are these people in "opposition" to? THE
FUCKING INVASION YOU IDIOT!

> > > We probably don't have all the information needed to decide what
> > > justified the invasion and whether it was the right thing to do or
> > > not.
>
> > WE have all the information, it seems YOU don't.
>
> Wake up. You don't know shit. You are another form of sheep.

ROTFLMFAO! It seems you have your head up your ass.

[Dave]

On Mar 5, 5:42 pm, Scott Richard Campbell Ass kisser of the Dick
Machine <saphappy2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> This particular group is more of a verbal abuse group than a debate
> group anyway... t

Only with idiots like you.

[Dev]

I'm not going to be as much of an "extremist" in replying to as some
of these others. They've been extremely polite, and I object to this
on every level.

On Mar 8, 11:11 am, thewayoftruth1 <bicbess2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> i is obvious that this repulsive cartoons depicting the Prophet have
> violated the sanctity of 1.5 billion Muslims around the world and
> their feelings....

"I think anyone who advocates the existence of gravity is
disrespecting me." You know what? Fuck yourself. I find your religion
offensive, too, you know. I wouldn't go as far as to say that I
advocate what _you guys_ advocate towards Ayaan Hirsi Ali but I see no
logical reason why I shouldn't make fun of your stupid beliefs.

> This has exposed those who are actually promoting
> extremism, violence and hatred between peoples and i emphasized the
> need to activate international resolutions that condemn and punish
> such crimes as defamation of religions and prophets.

Okay, here's a fun fact--Islam and Christianity, between those two,
how does either one _not_ defame the other? If you're against this
"defamination", by your logic they should both be banned. I get called
an extremist for saying religious types should be considered mentally
ill. But your own books say they should not only be killed but
tortured forever. So who's the extremist? I'm simply objecting to your
terrible, harmful beliefs. Your whole argument is that nobody should
be allowed to criticize or ridicule your terrible beliefs when I am
simply expressing _my_ belief that your beliefs are dogshit. Two major
differences? My beliefs are both substantiated and not as vile as
yours.

>and i think that
> anytype of art that portrays the image of any prophet is an offense..

Oh, a picture of your prophet is offensive to you, and 9/11 is
offensive to me. What we have here is two different set of standards.
To me, when something evil murders and tortures millions and threatens
all people it is offensive. To you, criticizing or mocking said evil
is offensive.

>.we
> can observe and note the behavior that follows after such act. Take
> for instance the picture of Jesus (pbuh)...how many times have you seen
> "his" image on the media being mocked at ? in many occasion "his"
> image has even been created into a cartoon to humor people..

"In many occasion?" In many occasions Jesus has not been mocked, and
Muhammed has not been mocked, simply because somebody was doing
something else. They should both be mocked and their followers should
be vilified.

>.this is
> absolute disrespect...

Respect should be earned. If it isn't earned then it had no value.
Give me _one_ reason why I should respect Islam (if you want to start
with the death threats that's fine too).

> in any circumstances we should not allow anytype
> of mockery of any prophet (pbuh and Allah 's mercy)
> and i belive also that Western countries and organizations were
> adopting double standards on the issue of Danish cartoons allowing
> abuse of Muslim sanctities and their Prophet by claiming that this the
> freedom of speech but where is this freedom when dealing with the
> holocaust not by denying it by just saying that the number of people
> killed in this sad accident is  exaggerated !!!

You obviously aren't really exactly a wordsmith. I'm guessing here
that you're comparing Holocaust denial with depicting your little
prophet. Here's some differences.

(1) Holocaust denial is bad because it is unsubstantiated and harmful.
Two problems I have with Islam.

(2) The Holocaust, like your religion and its atrocities, is based on
religious faith. The _criticisms_ and acknowledgement of the facts of
both are called "sanity".

[Simpleton]

Excellent post!

[Dev]

Christianity and Islam are stupid for a lot of the same reasons, Islam
came from Christianity, they are both being given these same
exemptions because they are religions, etc. Nothing off-topic. But of
course, you are a whiny piece of shit who should be blown to pieces
and don't actually have a point.

On Mar 2, 1:12 pm, Scott Richard Campbell A Seeker of the God
Machine <drgohappy2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> It's really funny how the post is about Islam, and you immediately
> start ragging on Christianity.....
> and very briefly, and with only one post,  whereas if there is a
> Christian post you attack almost every word..and with many
> posts.....very funny thing indeed.
>
> On Feb 29, 9:53 pm, Dev <thedevil...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Funny thing, though. The Bible has the same shit in it about killing
> > people who disagree with your delusions. The fact that The Q'uran is
> > such a horrific book doesn't prove Christianity--it just proves that
> > Christianity isn't the _only_ religion that sucks.
>
> > On Feb 29, 4:36 pm, thewayoftruth1 <bicbess2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > First thing you do is download the Quran from our site at:http://www.islamtomorrow.com/downloads/index.asp
> > > Then go to the verse in question and read the Arabic, then the
> > > English, then the transliteration (making the sounds with English
> > > letters).
> > > Then compare the meaning to what you have said:
>
> > > Thank you for your interest in Islam and the Muslims. It is our duty
> > > and privilege to present the truth and proof about Islam and what it
> > > represents. We desire to clear up misconceptions and
> > > misunderstandings
> > > about Islam to help others see the true message that came with all of
> > > the prophets from Adam, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, peace be
> > > upon them all.
>
> > > The message is: Laa elaha illa lah (none has the right to be
> > > worshipped except Allah).
>
> > > And before we begin to answer the question, we would like ask a
> > > question ourselves. If while listening to the answer you find
> > > yourself
> > > saying something like, Gee, I didn't know that or That sounds pretty
> > > good or I like that for me, then are you prepared to accept the
> > > message of worshipping your Lord without any partners? After all,
> > > that
> > > is what Islam is really all about anyway.
>
> > > _________________________________________________________
>
> > > Now let us begin to answer by correcting some mistakes in the
> > > 'question' itself:
>
> > > The word used most often in Quran, that is so often mistranslated as
> > > kill; slay; or slaughter is not jihad, it is qital and if you look to
> > > the Arabic, you will quickly understand this word in today's usage
> > > would clearly be combat.
>
> > > Naturally, just as here in the U.S. we must stand up for
> > > righteousness
> > > and strive to prevent oppression, aggression and tyranny. This is the
> > > proper usage and understanding for this term, as you will discover
> > > while passing through the tafseer and explanations by top scholars
> > > today.
>
> > > Scholars of Quran tell us the verses dealing with this topic are
> > > specific and not intended to imply a general meaning for just anyone
> > > to decide to go around combating non-Muslims. The early Muslims had
> > > been driven out of their homes and turned out into the desert to
> > > starve. After finally, relocating in Medina, verses came in Quran
> > > instructing them to make hajj (pilgrimage) back to Makkah. Finding
> > > their way blocked and after several years of making agreements and
> > > treaties that the others continually broke, the Muslims were at last,
> > > told they could now fight in combat against the tyrants who had so
> > > horribly mistreated and abused them in the past. However, this would
> > > only be acceptable to Allah if they remained within very specific
> > > limitations. The word "qital" in Arabic in this instance refers to
> > > "combat" rather than what some have used "kill" because the word
> > > "kill" is far to general, while the word "combat" appropriately
> > > describes what is intended by the usage in this passage. Allah Knows
> > > Best.
>
> > > It should also be noted the usage of the word "fitnah" in the same
> > > verse denotes a horrible condition, not unlike what we find today
> > > when
> > > there is terrorism and tyranny against the moral and just society at
> > > large. It would be easy to properly understand the meaning as,
> > > "Engage
> > > them in combat, even killing them, until the state of
> > > "fitnah" (terrorism) no longer exists in the society and people are
> > > free to worship Allah by their choice."
>
> > > We can see these verse are not designed to promote terrorism, but
> > > rather these are very orders from Above to the Muslims to be the
> > > first
> > > of those who stand out aggressively against all forms of terrorism
> > > and
> > > oppression.
>
> > > Once this is in place, there really isn't a question anymore, due to
> > > the necessity as we see today, to prevent and subdue enemies of
> > > freedom, liberty and justice. In other words, we could easily say
> > > Allah ordered believers in the Quran to wage combat against terrorism
> > > - 14 centuries ago. And the "struggle against oppression, terrorism
> > > and tyranny" in the Arabic language, it is called, "Jihad."
>
> > > You might even say, "Islam declared the WAR ON TERRORISM over 1,400
> > > years ago!"
>
> > >  [details: read explanation of Quran for verses, 2:189-193 at:www.QTafsir.com
> > > ]
>
> > > >> Thanks so much for your kind question and may Allah guide all of us to the straight path to be with Him in the Next Life, ameen.
>
> > > Answers:www.JustAskislam.com
> > > Free Quran:www.islamtomorrow.com/free/-Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Dev]

Probably just on deaf ears as usual. This is why I get so frustrated
and violent. In this same thread and others SRC is trying to make me
out to be a Muslim--this is, to those of you with brains that can read
and pay attention, probably pretty hilarious. So why does it piss me
off? Because for every Simpleton or Trance or rappy who sees how right
I am there are like a thousand retards who would think the _other_
asshole was making a point. We know there's millions who would think
wayoftruth was absolutely right--because of pictures of "the prophet
Muhammed" they have rioted and murdered. This really, really, really
pisses me off. I find this to be something very wrong with the world
and I want to help but I think I should be _honest_ about how pissed I
am because I think maybe there should be someone out there who _is_
totally honest about this. The rest of you can distance yourselves
from what I say and I won't hold it against you. Some of you should be
politicians but maybe there should be one of us who speaks his mind. I
hope I do have a theist follow-up on the death threats I've gotten.
I'd be willing to die for what is right. Thanks, though, Simpleton.

> Excellent post!- Hide quoted text -

[Trance Gemini]

Good post, Dev. You said it better than I did ;-)

[LL]

On Mar 8, 1:30 pm, ZonkTheBear <ZonkTheB...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> One country may find it perfectly justified to stone women to death
> for being raped while another country finds it to be a despicable act
> of barbarism. The nice thing is that the stoning barbarians can't
> impose their distorted views of justice onto the citizens of a society
> with a different moral perspective.
>
> If I want to do something in _my_ country that is not forbidden by
> _secular_ laws in _my_ country, there is nothing you can do to make me
> stop doing it just because it is against some religious laws or
> because it somehow "violates the sanctity" of religious people! You
> can preach and pray and spend your whole life in submission to your
> god(s) as long as you don't let it interfere with those who don't
> share your religious beliefs, but as soon as you do that, I will fight
> you to the bitter end!

LL: Now that you've brought it up, the West would be perfectly
justified in starting a holy war against Muslims for doing things like
stoning women and killing daughters who "dishonor" their families. If
you want an example of something that SHOULD warrant a holy war, it's
that, not cartoons.


If people in the west were even one iota as violent and terroristic at
Muslims are, every Muslim country would be under attack from every
Western country. They also attack the religious symbols of every
religion practiced in the West.

Muslims should thank their lucky stars that the people in the West
are much more civilized than those who embrace Islam. We in the West
are far more justified in attacking ignorant, primitive Muslims than
any Muslim is in attacking people in the west---as long as they engage
in immoral practices--and it looks as if those practices won't stop
anytime soon.

Muslims violate the sanctity of every country they immigrate to and
they

> > killed in this sad accident is  exaggerated !!!- Hide quoted text -

[bonfly]

LL: Now that you've brought it up, the West would be perfectly
justified in starting a holy war against Muslims for doing things like
stoning women and killing daughters who "dishonor" their families. If
you want an example of something that SHOULD warrant a holy war, it's
that, not cartoons.

Hmmm ... I saw a video several years back where a group of Islamics
were sawing off a guy's hands and feet because he stole a television.
Each amputation took about ten seconds and they were done one after
another. This wasn't a clinical amputation, it was done by a few
turban headed wankers holding serated breadknives. It was done in the
sand and it was done to a fellow islamist.

Now, here we have thewayofmohamud getting offended because of some
fucking cartoon that mocks Mohomud ? Why not ~ it's a violent,
offensive religion based on outdated values that utterly degrades
women.

[Dev]

Of course these two would be in bed together.

[Multiverse]

thought you hung yourself. guess you didn't have the guts. your
cowardice is no surprise.

[ZonkTheBear]

On 9 Mar, 04:39, LL <llp...@aol.com> wrote:
> LL: Now that you've brought it up, the West would be perfectly
> justified in starting a holy war against Muslims for doing things like
> stoning women and killing daughters who "dishonor" their families. If
> you want an example of something that SHOULD warrant a holy war, it's
> that, not cartoons.

I agree and that's why I explicitly said "just because it is against

some religious laws or because it somehow "violates the sanctity" of

religious people!".

Not just the West but all countries have a moral obligation to fight
acts violating the basic human rights as defined by the UN. Acts that
merely "violates the sanctity" of religious people does not fall under
this category and is (and should be) free for anyone to perform in
western democracies.

I think TG gave excellent examples of this in her post :

http://groups.google.com/group/Atheism-vs-Christianity/msg/5d9562b2a69e93f2

ZtB

> > - Show quoted text -- Skjul sitert tekst -
>
> - Vis sitert tekst -

[Dag Yo]

> LL: Now that you've brought it up, the West would be perfectly
> justified in starting a holy war against Muslims for doing things like
> stoning women and killing daughters who "dishonor" their families. If
> you want an example of something that SHOULD warrant a holy war, it's
> that, not cartoons.

What exactly is the argument you're putting forward? It looks to me
like:

- Offensive behavior warrants a holy war.
- The stoning of rape victims is an offensive behavior.
- Holy war is warranted by the stoning of rape victims.

And if indeed that is the case, then how exactly are political
cartoons (as offensive behaviors) not valid reasons for holy wars?

-

[Dag Yo]

> I don't think they've even bothered to look at the cartoons to see if
> they are in fact offensive!

I'm positive that they aren't.

[ZonkTheBear]

On 9 Mar, 09:41, Dag Yo <sir_ro...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > I don't think they've even bothered to look at the cartoons to see if
> > they are in fact offensive!
>
> I'm positive that they aren't.

You are right - they are not (or at least should not be...).

The buckos burning embassies did it because someone else _told_ them
that the cartoons were were offensive, and as with most (if not all)
theists, they tend to accept every claim and assertion without a shred
of critical thought. Do you think these cartoons are something to kill
and maim for:

http://www.danishmuhammedcartoons.com/Cartoons.html

ZtB

> > > > killed in this sad accident is exaggerated !!!- Skjul sitert tekst -