Microsoft ending newsgroup support
MP
newsgroups starting next month, pushing users instead to discussion forums
such as those found on the Microsoft Answers, TechNet, and MSDN sites.
Although venerable, Microsoft said that so-called NNTP newsgroups are past
their time in terms of being usable and secure.
Link:
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-20004109-56.htm
Mike P
Joseph M. Newcomer
http://connect.microsoft.com/MicrosoftForums ) that is supposed to let us use our
professionally-designed and professionally-written news readers (instead of having to use
the first-draft amateur efforts they call a "forum") but when you go to the page to
download it, the page is COMPLETELY BLANK! How hard is it, really, to create a page with
a download button or a download hyperlink that WORKS? It ain't Rocket Science here,
guys, and why is it that Microsoft so misunderstands the Internet that they can't create a
simple download?
They make silly meaningless noises about something they call "security" but they STILL try
to run client-side scripts, which are always the mark of a sociopathic Web designer. You
don't need scripts to do simple downloads, and it is silly to require this! I actually
believe in security, and anyone who wants security should disable all forms of client-side
scripting (the preferred attack vector these days). Anyone who demands to use their Web
site it is sick.
joe
Joseph M. Newcomer [MVP]
email: newc...@flounder.com
Web: http://www.flounder.com
MVP Tips: http://www.flounder.com/mvp_tips.htm
Hector Santos
IMO, this is a poor decision made by some one is basically clueless at
Microsoft about the history of cyber-space communications and
technical support.
Unfortunately, they are tasting the water, waiting for feedback, and
unless there is an outcry, they will move to the next step.
Are they just really saying that they own employees and advising the
MVPs to use the new system instead of the NTTP groups?
But I also believe they are trying to keep the "GOOGLEs" and other
systems from mirroring what they deem is "Data Mining" Microsoft IP
material.
Maybe all they needed to do was CUT DOWN on the newsgroups. There are
certainly many groups that was more productive and with high quality
than most of the others.
This is, again, a bad decision by some HUMAN at Microsoft who got a
bug up his ass to "change things" under the name of "consolidation and
control" without really thinking about the repercussions.
Anyway, this will drastically alter the landscape and if anything,
begin to eliminate a lot of people from the support process. I
suddenly feeling less enthusiastic about developing products for
Microsoft OSe or "devices" only.
--
HLS
David Ching
news:3hi1u517hmbrh029m...@4ax.com...
> This is sad. What is worse, they have an "NNTP bridge" mechanism (I found
> it on
> http://connect.microsoft.com/MicrosoftForums ) that is supposed to let us
> use our
> professionally-designed and professionally-written news readers (instead
> of having to use
> the first-draft amateur efforts they call a "forum") but when you go to
> the page to
> download it, the page is COMPLETELY BLANK!
It works for me. Dare I say it? You may need to have Javascript enabled!
:-O
-- David
David Ching
news:esIqxF$6KHA...@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
> Microsoft said it plans to end support for more than 4,000 old-style
> newsgroups starting next month, pushing users instead to discussion forums
> such as those found on the Microsoft Answers, TechNet, and MSDN sites.
>
There is an MFC forum:
http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/vcmfcatl/threads
Hope to see you there! And do check out the NNTP bridge:
https://connect.microsoft.com/MicrosoftForums
-- David
Joseph M. Newcomer
by JavaVirus attacks, and in the five years since I put three layers of firewall in (two
of which strip out JavaVirus scripts) I have had no security problems. Only sociopaths
require JavaVirus to access a Web site, and only a moron would use it to replace a simple
"download" link.
joe
David Ching
> But JavaScript is an antisocial technology that cannot be trusted. I have
> been taken out
> by JavaVirus attacks, and in the five years since I put three layers of
> firewall in (two
> of which strip out JavaVirus scripts) I have had no security problems.
> Only sociopaths
> require JavaVirus to access a Web site, and only a moron would use it to
> replace a simple
> "download" link.
I just wanted to make clear that most people have no trouble downloading the
bridge.
-- David
Goran
> Microsoft said it plans to end support for more than 4,000 old-style
> newsgroups starting next month, pushing users instead to discussion forums
> such as those found on the Microsoft Answers, TechNet, and MSDN sites.
>
> Although venerable, Microsoft said that so-called NNTP newsgroups are past
> their time in terms of being usable and secure.
I don't like this one bit. As Joe said, a dedicated NNTP client beats
the hell out of any "forum" software. That's one reason against the
decision. Another is that some people (me included) are accessing this
through Google Groups (and I am sure that there are other sources). I
prefer the format, for familiarity, for one, and also, I don't care
logging on with a Passport account (I have one that I don't use much).
Perhaps I'll just stop coming here. Oh well.
Goran.
Goran
> But JavaScript is an antisocial technology that cannot be trusted. I have been taken out
> by JavaVirus attacks, and in the five years since I put three layers of firewall in (two
> of which strip out JavaVirus scripts) I have had no security problems. Only sociopaths
> require JavaVirus to access a Web site, and only a moron would use it to replace a simple
> "download" link.
> joe
I don't like Javascript neither (I run ScriptBlock, AdBlock and Flash
Block), but come on, it's not sociopaths. Rather, apply Hanlon's
razor.
Goran.
David Lowndes
>unless there is an outcry, they will move to the next step.
Maybe what's needed is an outcry similar to the one when the MVP
program was to be axed several years ago?
>Are they just really saying that they own employees and advising the
>MVPs to use the new system instead of the NTTP groups?
From the feedback with using the NNTP bridge we know some softies are
far from happy about the inefficiency of using the forums to help
users.
Dave
Bo Persson
> "MP" <mpNo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:esIqxF$6KHA...@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>> Microsoft said it plans to end support for more than 4,000
>> old-style newsgroups starting next month, pushing users instead to
>> discussion forums such as those found on the Microsoft Answers,
>> TechNet, and MSDN sites.
>
> There is an MFC forum:
> http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/vcmfcatl/threads
I don't like the flashy and slow interface of forums. That's why I pay
extra to get a news access.
> Hope to see you there! And do check out the NNTP bridge:
> https://connect.microsoft.com/MicrosoftForums
>
So Microsoft is closing down their NNTP server and then asks me to run
my own? Come on!
Bo Persson
Joseph M. Newcomer
****
Is this the "never ascribe to malice what can be accounted for by simple incompetence"
criterion?
Actually a sociopath is not malicious, merely incapable of empathy with others. The
choice of word was very careful. And anyone who would replace a simple "download" link
with a complex script is clearly incompetent.
[The analogy I use: what if UPS insisted they would not deliver a package to your home
unless you left your front door unlocked so they could put it inside? How long do you
think they would last? "Trust us, our drivers are all background-checked and bonded". The
amateurish design of IE which does not allow me to grant specific privileges to specific
Web sites (instead, having only one category "trusted sites", into which all trust is the
same---clearly a design done by a newbie---is, to put it mildly, totally inadequate]
However, in checking the definition, I found the definition of psychopath:
psychopaths "use charisma, manipulation, intimidation, sexual intercourse and violence" to
control others and to satisfy their own needs. Hare states that: "Lacking in conscience
and empathy, they take what they want and do as they please, violating social norms and
expectations without guilt or remorse". He previously stated that: "What is missing, in
other words, are the very qualities that allow a human being to live in social harmony"
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy)
Doesn't this seem to describe someone who would force us to use badly-designed forums? The
lack of empathy is what produced the VS IDE. A lack of empathy combined with zero
experience and a lack of any adult supervision is not a good combination for producing
quality interfaces.
joe
***
>
>Goran.
Ajay Kalra
Truly sad. I dont really understand the reasons.
--
Ajay
Ajay Kalra
I already dont feel like taking the step of using the bridge. This
era is coming to a rather abrupt end.
--
Ajay
Ajay Kalra
Is this going to be the new place for those who are here?
--
Ajay
Ajay Kalra
> "MP" <mpNoS...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:esIqxF$6KHA...@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>
> > Microsoft said it plans to end support for more than 4,000 old-style
> > newsgroups starting next month, pushing users instead to discussion forums
> > such as those found on the Microsoft Answers, TechNet, and MSDN sites.
>
> There is an MFC forum:http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/vcmfcatl/threads
It already knew who I was as I had logged in using the Live ID. I
guess MSFT is getting everyone all under one big umbrella.
--
Ajay
David Lowndes
>era is coming to a rather abrupt end.
I've been trying to use the NNTP bridge with the forums, but quite
frankly it's still a poor solution compared to using a proper NNTP
source. I don't think I can be bothered much more.
Dave
Giovanni Dicanio
news:qt23u55s551a96vft...@4ax.com...
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy)
>
> Doesn't this seem to describe someone who would force us to use
> badly-designed forums? The
> lack of empathy is what produced the VS IDE.
While there are some aspects I don't like in the new IDE, there are others
that are great.
For example, I like the C++ squiggles feature which appeared in VS2010!
BTW: I agree with you on the NNTP-bridge thing (I prefer pure NNTP
newsgroups like this one).
And one of the problems of the web forum interface is the lack of threading
view (they are "flat"); there are also problems in using the quoting tool in
the web-based editor.
And yes, I fail to understand the reason why there is no simple download
link to get the bridge binaries... Useless complexity in requiring login
before downloading :)
Giovanni
Hector Santos
It is really getting tiresome. What makes this difficult is that its
really one man's decision and certainly they have not thought out
completely. But this type of new direction was precisely why I was
concern when Ozzie took over.
We develop sell electronic mail and forum software, and I've seen all
angles to it as a vendor and also provider, we use it for support as
well. And been doing this since the 80s.
Once upon a time, it was all local support, then it your have internet
integration.
Admittingly, it is difficult to single source it not only from a
development standpoint but from an operations and customer support
standpoint. I can understand it from a SMALL VENDOR standpoint, but
not Microsoft.
Case in point, ourselves.
We developed, sold and used our own Online Support system. Users
could connect via:
Dialup first only.
Then Dialup Connetion (PPP)
Then a native GUI frontend (free) was offer
Then a WEB interface offering was made
Wildcat! Exchange (hook into Outlook Exchange, MAPI)
These were still Online Mail, then offline mail technology via RFC:
POP3/SMTP <-- store and forward
IMAP <-- still a online concept
NNTP <-- still an online concept with local cachine
LIST MAIL <-- Email based Group ware
So from a support standpoint, we offerre all various ways to support
users. When the RFC methods appear, there was "some lost" of control,
it was no longer a strong "centralized concept" with the exception of
IMAP.
But you have also the other angle of support levels:
Free
Subscription levels
And there also the concept of USER SUPPORTED areas, your own customers
supporting others.
Lets not forget where Ozzie came from - Lotus Notes - the very essence
of centralize control and group ware communications.
In short, they are behaving as if they are a small vendor and doesn't
have the technology to properly integrate the diverse nature of
electronic support. Like if the easiest thing as a small vendor is to
use one method only and make a hard decision to alienate decades of
diversity for support and connectivity.
Don't get me wrong, they can still do what they want but they need to
have ready the different ways people can connect and access
(upload/download) information and do so properly.
So the reasons are far from just being technical here, but one of
consolidation and honestly some bug up someone butt who think he can
redirect Microsoft into a new era by forgetting decades of diverse
support methods.
I didn't know they tried to get rid of the MVP group. If that was the
case, then indeed they are trying to create a new model for technical
support that will come with different fee based support tiers. They
can't afford (liability wise) to have MVP people deal with Enterprise
people for example, that has to come from internal employees only.
Like I said, I am personally tired of they new directions in many
areas and they are making it very difficult to dedicate to Microsoft
only.
They really need a support manager that understands all this and is
not just a FaceBook and Twitter a-hole. That is where all this
mindset is coming from.
--
HLS
Hector Santos
Ajay Kalra wrote:
Do you know if the have a API (REST for example) for accessing the
Microsoft Forums network?
Lets remember, the key thing here or lost is there NNTP server
network. That is what is the key thing is.
If they plan is to just separate the internal employee support from
the NNTP groups but keep the NNTP services active for user support
(and MVP) usage, then nothing much is going to be lost. The worst
that can happen is that they won't bother with filters and the
Microsoft "sponsored" NNTP groups will begin to mold into alt.* usenet
groups with is completely whack. IOW, there has to be some level of
filtering or moderations (if only for filtering spam/porn purposes).
But if they kill the NNTP servers, then that changes the picture in
drastic ways.
In short, it really not about NNTP but rather offing a centralized
storage system that allows different connectivities, different ways
that people can use it. Each method is not going to provide the same
level information, i.e, the extra info a view of the forums provide as
oppose what is lost with a NNTP or RFC 2822 view. But that shouldn't
be a problem technically. When a message is extract, they can use
X-Headers to expose this information.
The problem, a common discussion in the IETF 2822/2822 group is that
there aren't enough clients that would support these X-HEADERS that a
server might expose.
So the only way you can do that today is with a online rendering and
presentation - i.e. an online web access.
Unless Microsoft does this right with providing an protocol and API,
there won't be any incentive for alternative connection/viewing
methods. It would be web access only with a poor NNTP bridge.
They need to have a protocol so that 3rd party MUA vendors and
gateways can be developed that support the "extra" information.
--
HLS
Tom Serface
used to it. I have to be careful not to accidentally do something that
makes it go "back" or I lose everything I've typed and offline work is not
possible, but it's not too bad.
Tom
"David Lowndes" <Dav...@example.invalid> wrote in message
news:ceh3u5lbi4u34titg...@4ax.com...
Tom Serface
"Ajay Kalra" <ajay...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:666081b1-e5bc-4e9a...@l28g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
David Lowndes
>used to it. I have to be careful not to accidentally do something that
>makes it go "back" or I lose everything I've typed and offline work is not
>possible, but it's not too bad.
It's OK for asking questions, but I really can't face it for answering
- life's too short.
Dave
David Lowndes
>not Microsoft.
Unfortunately big companies tend to make big decisions :(
Dave
Stephen Wolstenholme
Reliable bridging solutions like MPNews have been around for years.
Microsoft could use an existing solution rather than reinventing the
wheel.
Steve
--
Neural Planner Software Ltd www.NPSL1.com
EasyNN-plus. Neural Networks plus. www.easynn.com
SwingNN. Forecast with Neural Networks. www.swingnn.com
JustNN. Just Neural Networks. www.justnn.com
Hector Santos
I just installed it and it can't handle my login it displays some
"exception box", although I was able (and required) to login at the
connect web site to even download it.
Also, this is not a MICROSOFT DEVELOPED product.
HOW DARE MICROSOFT CHANGE THERE SUPPORT SYSTEM AND OFFER A BROKEN 3RD
PARTY DEVELOPED PRODUCT IN ORDER TO KEEP WITH CURRENT CUSTOMER
PREFERRED MUA ACCESS?
They need to TAKE control of this!
--
HLS
Randall
Ajay Kalra says...
>
>On May 4, 9:22=A0pm, "MP" <mpNoS...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Microsoft said it plans to end support for more than 4,000 old-style
>s
>> such as those found on the Microsoft Answers, TechNet, and MSDN sites.
>>
>t
>> their time in terms of being usable and secure.
>>
>> Link:
>>
>> http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-20004109-56.htm
>>
>> Mike P
>
>Truly sad. I dont really understand the reasons.
It is sad and it sucks. The move solely benefits Microsoft by driving traffic
through their sites rather than an outside community (Usenet)... they can
control the content, and they can profit from the traffic.
Many web-based discussion forums are cumbersome to use, require the acceptance
of intrusive applications, and they collect a fair amount of personal data, so
it's funny to hear Microsoft condemn Usenet for not being usable and secure lol.
I prefer Usenet to the above mentioned alternatives, and will continue to use
them. I picked up a paid account with a dedicated Usenet provider (newsguy.com)
awhile back so I didn't have to worry about my ISP or free resources dropping
newsgroups at some point.
For what it's worth I get 12 months for $19, binary & text groups, NNTP & Web
access, newsgroup search engine, free SSL, tech support. Wasn't crazy about
paying for Usenet, but it works out to about a $1.60 month so it's not exactly
breaking the bank lol.
Randy
Hector Santos
settings at the web site) and was able create a MUA (Thunderbird) NNTP
account to the local host server. Slow as molasses
Man, Microsoft should of came to us to private single source gateway
software that support NNTP, WEB, NATIVE GUI and EVEN TELNET TEXT.
If they are going to dump the NNTP servers, then they need to OPEN UP
THE WEB SERVER/REST API.
It would be totally unfair to only allow exclusivity solely to a 3rd
party NNTP Bridge vendor. It really SUCKS that Microsoft is allowing
this to happen.
I'm going by what it says in the bridge login box:
You are logging into (Microsoft Forums NntpBridge) which is
not a Microsoft developed application.
Finally, I don't see any merging of the existing NNTP forums with the
MS Web Forums. Was that suppose to be the case? I don't see it.
If that was not the case, then I don't see any reason why they can
continue to sponsor NNTP servers with the current open NNTP newsgroups
and continue to allow it to be USER/MVP supported. If Microsoft
doesn't want to allow their employees to participate in the newsgroups
anymore, then fine, don't allow them. Its not like they are have any
high participation rate anyway. But that shouldn't be a reason to
stop offering the long time NNTP based microsoft newsgroups.
People, if we really want this then we need to find out if Microsoft
is open to keeping the NNTP servers active but that might mean on
proposing how they be managed.
--
HLS
Geoff
<sant...@nospam.gmail.com> wrote:
[snip]
>
>Finally, I don't see any merging of the existing NNTP forums with the
>MS Web Forums. Was that suppose to be the case? I don't see it.
I don't see very many threads on the web side that clearly exist on
the NNTP side.
>
>If that was not the case, then I don't see any reason why they can
>continue to sponsor NNTP servers with the current open NNTP newsgroups
>and continue to allow it to be USER/MVP supported. If Microsoft
>doesn't want to allow their employees to participate in the newsgroups
>anymore, then fine, don't allow them. Its not like they are have any
>high participation rate anyway. But that shouldn't be a reason to
>stop offering the long time NNTP based microsoft newsgroups.
>
>People, if we really want this then we need to find out if Microsoft
>is open to keeping the NNTP servers active but that might mean on
>proposing how they be managed.
Why all this discussion? Bridged or not, the web forums will be
proprietary to MS and controlled by them. I see this as mostly a move
to exclude Google Groups from participation in the forums and a
closure of the support system from a global resource to a private one
that MS can censor or close at their discretion.
The microsoft.public.* groups exist on NNTP servers around the globe
whether or not the Microsoft NNTP servers exist or not. Unless
Microsoft is prepared to make demands on those providers that the
groups be deleted I see no reason to abandon use of the groups on
other servers.
David Ching
news:eDihewK7...@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
> I was able to finally login into the bridge (once I change my profile
> settings at the web site)
To be fair, there were pretty clear instructions before downloading the
bridge that you needed to change your profile, so this hopefully will not be
a hindrance to others.
> and was able create a MUA (Thunderbird) NNTP account to the local host
> server. Slow as molasses
>
Yup, forum traffic is typically low so after the first download, you
typically won't wait long. Compared to how long and tedious navigating the
forums are in a browser, I'd rather let this go for a few hours and not be
bothered.
> Man, Microsoft should of came to us to private single source gateway
> software that support NNTP, WEB, NATIVE GUI and EVEN TELNET TEXT.
>
> If they are going to dump the NNTP servers, then they need to OPEN UP THE
> WEB SERVER/REST API.
>
> It would be totally unfair to only allow exclusivity solely to a 3rd party
> NNTP Bridge vendor. It really SUCKS that Microsoft is allowing this to
> happen.
>
> I'm going by what it says in the bridge login box:
>
> You are logging into (Microsoft Forums NntpBridge) which is
> not a Microsoft developed application.
>
I hadn't noticed that before and have asked MS for an explanation. Will get
back to you. I certainly got the idea that the bridge was developed
in-house at MS.
> Finally, I don't see any merging of the existing NNTP forums with the MS
> Web Forums. Was that suppose to be the case? I don't see it.
>
No, for example I listed the equivalent MFC forum for this newsgroup, no
attempt will be made to merge the content or community of this one.
> If that was not the case, then I don't see any reason why they can
> continue to sponsor NNTP servers with the current open NNTP newsgroups and
> continue to allow it to be USER/MVP supported. If Microsoft doesn't want
> to allow their employees to participate in the newsgroups anymore, then
> fine, don't allow them. Its not like they are have any high participation
> rate anyway. But that shouldn't be a reason to stop offering the long
> time NNTP based microsoft newsgroups.
>
I hadn't heard the primary mover was stopping MS employees from
contributing. I had heard the current NNTP news servers had something to do
with some discontinued Exchange product, and while those could have been
replaced, there are other advantages to MS of moving to forums. First,
people who ask questions (as opposed to answering a ton of them) find the
web interface easier. (True enough, no need to deal with an NNTP client.)
Second, MS has clearer ownership of property and might leverage it on Bing
(and hide it from Google, or something). Third, NNTP doesn't support things
like ratings, moderators, marking answers, points, moving of threads, etc.
(The value of such things are debatable, but no denying NNTP doesn't support
them.)
> People, if we really want this then we need to find out if Microsoft is
> open to keeping the NNTP servers active but that might mean on proposing
> how they be managed.
>
I don't believe they are, this has been a battle (with MVP's championing
NNTP) for several years, and it looks like we have lost.
But at least our cries have netted the NNTP Bridge, which I think everyone
will agree is small condolence but better than nothing.
I will miss this newsgroup. The equivalent forum is lacking in community
spirit (though that may improve as hopefully all of us migrate there).
-- David
Joseph M. Newcomer
On Wed, 5 May 2010 21:36:02 +0200, "Giovanni Dicanio"
<giovanniD...@REMOVEMEgmail.com> wrote:
>"Joseph M. Newcomer" <newc...@flounder.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
>news:qt23u55s551a96vft...@4ax.com...
>
>> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy)
>>
>> Doesn't this seem to describe someone who would force us to use
>> badly-designed forums? The
>> lack of empathy is what produced the VS IDE.
>
>While there are some aspects I don't like in the new IDE, there are others
>that are great.
****
I am primarily referring to the massive modality; to do certain actions, to see certain
things, you must FIRST get yourself in to the right mode, and the modality is implicit
rather than explicit; you have to GUESS what mode you are in, and GUESS what mode you WISH
to be in! We knew modal interfaces sucked 30 years ago, but the VS IDE added modality
*****
>For example, I like the C++ squiggles feature which appeared in VS2010!
****
And what makes this powerful is that it is NON-MODAL!
****
>
>BTW: I agree with you on the NNTP-bridge thing (I prefer pure NNTP
>newsgroups like this one).
>And one of the problems of the web forum interface is the lack of threading
>view (they are "flat"); there are also problems in using the quoting tool in
>the web-based editor.
*****
Let us say that the designer had a very sick sense of humor. Most of the design shows a
design done by someone who never ONCE used a threaded newsgroup reader! This is what
happens when you turn design loose on people with insufficient experience; they don't
understand what is and is not important! Where is the adult supervision?
*****
>
>And yes, I fail to understand the reason why there is no simple download
>link to get the bridge binaries... Useless complexity in requiring login
>before downloading :)
*****
Anyone who could design a forum interface as bad as the one we see is not afraid to
subject end users to gratuitous complexity!
joe
*****
>
>Giovanni
Joseph M. Newcomer
posted, which went something like
"I don't mind people reinventing the wheel, but I do tire of trapezoidal wheels with
offset axles"
I don't know how much of what I know is covered still by my NDA, so I won't say anything
based on that information, but simply offer an opnion I've offered before: it appears
that there is a history of technology at Microsoft being controlled not by people who
cared about providing solutions, but by people who had political axes to grind about Doing
It My Way Or No Way. Whose jobs at Microsoft seem to hinge on their ability to "make
visible change" whether visible change makes sense or not. When IBM achieved this, they
essentially suicided the company, because people who knew better ways to do things ignored
them. I was fired in 1990 because IBM terminated a research contract I was working under,
because they had to retrench after losing US$5,000,000,000.00, and a million-dollar
University research contract was low-hanging fruit to the cost-cutters. 30 people lost
their jobs. But what had happened was IBM had taken a high-handed approach to how they
sold, serviced, and designed software, and the customer base walked away. It scares me
that Microsoft is now behaving like IBM of the 1960s-1980s (when I was at various times an
IBM customer, or more properly, worked for someone who had IBM equipment for which I had
some kind of responsibiity). I remember my boss getting into a shouting match at an IBM
conference with the IBM rep, who simply REFUSED to hear that a recent IBM decision was
causing immense problems (we later bought mainframes from Digital, that repeated the same
disaster in the 1980s-1990s, until they were so weakened that Compaq bought them!) Sun
did something similar in the 2000s, and they are now owned by Oracle. These were BIG
companies that failed because they got too arrogant. And decided that internal egos were
more important than happy customers.
I do not want to see this happen to Microsoft, but I don't know what we can do to stop it!
joe
On Wed, 05 May 2010 23:36:42 +0100, Stephen Wolstenholme <st...@tropheus.demon.co.uk>
wrote:
>On Wed, 05 May 2010 20:26:15 +0100, David Lowndes
><Dav...@example.invalid> wrote:
>
>>>I already dont feel like taking the step of using the bridge. This
>>>era is coming to a rather abrupt end.
>>
>>I've been trying to use the NNTP bridge with the forums, but quite
>>frankly it's still a poor solution compared to using a proper NNTP
>>source. I don't think I can be bothered much more.
>>
>>Dave
>
>Reliable bridging solutions like MPNews have been around for years.
>Microsoft could use an existing solution rather than reinventing the
>wheel.
>
>Steve
Hector Santos
> "Hector Santos" <sant...@nospam.gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:eDihewK7...@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>> I was able to finally login into the bridge (once I change my profile
>> settings at the web site)
>
> To be fair, there were pretty clear instructions before downloading the
> bridge that you needed to change your profile, so this hopefully will
> not be a hindrance to others.
The directions are clear on what to do, but not clear in how to get
there and I'm an expert and know that to look for. :) But it took me
about 10-15 minutes to finally find that "My Settings" where that "Use
NNTP Bridge" check box is located.
Two basic instructions for needed for NNTP MUA accustom users:
1) How to get to that checkbox (I don't see why this is needed
in the first place).
2) Use LocalHost for the new NNTP account in your MUA if the NNTP
Bridge Server is installed on the same machine or use the
computer host name if located on another machine.
>> I'm going by what it says in the bridge login box:
>>
>> You are logging into (Microsoft Forums NntpBridge) which is
>> not a Microsoft developed application.
>>
> I hadn't noticed that before and have asked MS for an explanation. Will
> get back to you. I certainly got the idea that the bridge was developed
> in-house at MS.
Please also find out the issue with the API. These people are using a
port 80 web server request. See my post to Geoff.
>> Finally, I don't see any merging of the existing NNTP forums with the
>> MS Web Forums. Was that suppose to be the case? I don't see it.
>>
>
> No, for example I listed the equivalent MFC forum for this newsgroup, no
> attempt will be made to merge the content or community of this one.
I see that now, so it nullifies their concern of context abuse caused
by these newsgroup. The impressive I had was they were merging,
after all, its illogical to have two different message database? :)
>> If that was not the case, then I don't see any reason why they can
>> continue to sponsor NNTP servers with the current open NNTP newsgroups
>> and continue to allow it to be USER/MVP supported. If Microsoft
>> doesn't want to allow their employees to participate in the newsgroups
>> anymore, then fine, don't allow them. Its not like they are have any
>> high participation rate anyway. But that shouldn't be a reason to
>> stop offering the long time NNTP based microsoft newsgroups.
>>
>
> I hadn't heard the primary mover was stopping MS employees from
> contributing. I had heard the current NNTP news servers had something
> to do with some discontinued Exchange product, and while those could
> have been replaced, there are other advantages to MS of moving to
> forums.
I see, its funny, we did it the other way. We once supported Exchange
gateway for our backend storage system so that outlook users can see
the server side conferences as FOLDERS on the client side.
http://santronics.com/products/winserver/Exchange.php
but we no longer develop it since the advent of the RFC based MUA. We
replaced it with our NNTP Server so that all conferences, mail forums,
etc can be exposed as
Real Newsgroup (Unmoderated)
Real Newsgroup (Moderated)
Locally Published Newsgroup
with the latter, any can of mail conference can be used, including
mailing list, private, public or both local or email, etc, including
other network mail, such as the old Fidonet or QWK.
Its just MAIL and we are the EXPERTS at it! :) The only thing we are
behind with is the opening up all all the private stuff for sharing
and producing more group ware results (like me seeing all your
messages at MS Forums).
> First, people who ask questions (as opposed to answering a ton
> of them) find the web interface easier. (True enough, no need to deal
> with an NNTP client.)
I agree, but its not a matter of the interface, but how the server
offers these features. Our mail software is inherently FOR YOU to
quickly login, get your information and out. You don't need alerts,
when you login, you see your "New mail (virtual) Inbox" virtual in the
sense that its a collection of all your direct messages from email
plus all the forums you participate in.
The debate with us that the topical display (FORUMS) is a poor way to
communicate for MOST users. Its a debates because more customers are
wanting this style, but I believe its the OPERATORS that are saying
this, not the users.
In other words, the FORUMS view is not optimal for the casual users.
That said, I do like MS FORUMS approach that was changed several times
over the last 5-6 years.
Now, I just finishing selecting my favorites forums about 8-10 of
them, and I will browse them went I want to, but when I login in,
foremost, I am interested in MY MAIL first, people who write to me or
as part of a thread.
> Second, MS has clearer ownership of property and
> might leverage it on Bing (and hide it from Google, or something).
Thats a farce. The ownership question is not locked in stone. They
can write it all the TOS they want - it is not locked. They might own
the PAPER, but not what I write on it, that is still a copyright as
good as I am writing this message right now. Just consider also raises
new Liability issues for Microsoft if they wish to claim context
ownership - not I didn't say what they can do with it, and even then
there are limitations.
Furthermore, all google needs to do is create a silly account and hack
the bridge http port 80 calls and reverse engineer what I will presume
is an XML based exchange of mail. I guarantee you this will be among
the first things done by many if only to automate the process and/or
to create new or continue with existing service bureaus, which also
raises another issue of Anti-trust of microsoft wishes to play games.
> Third, NNTP doesn't support things like ratings, moderators, marking
> answers, points, moving of threads, etc. (The value of such things are
> debatable, but no denying NNTP doesn't support them.)
Not quite David.
The value of such things are rich and long sorted. NNTP protocol is
RFC 5322 based (formerly RFC 2822, new one updated last year) and X-
headers can be used for proprietary exchange information.
We do it.
The problem is the MUA (Mail User Access) agents need to be updated to
support such things and as history has it, when MICROSOFT begins to
supports such things, the industry do tend to follow the big gorrilla.
So IMV, it was a matter of incompetent on the part of someone that
simply doesn't know such technology that existed since the day 1. A
guy locked in his brain that WEB is the only way when in fact, it can
have long term strategic issues if not considered right.
But it will take the "Microsoft" to do such things for MUAs to follow.
We have that issue right now with DKIM, a new message authenticity
system. No Microsoft, hence no widely adopted incentive to change MUAs
to support it.
The reason however, is the issue that many (including myself) believe
that online centralization, like it all started, is making a comeback
and is where we should be going to solve many of the exploitation
issues, and also increase the leveraging of user information.
But most of that is just a matter of logging in users and that can be
done with any online or offline system. Leveraging the newsgroups
information was possible - google proved it.
>> People, if we really want this then we need to find out if Microsoft
>> is open to keeping the NNTP servers active but that might mean on
>> proposing how they be managed.
> I don't believe they are, this has been a battle (with MVP's championing
> NNTP) for several years, and it looks like we have lost.
>
> But at least our cries have netted the NNTP Bridge, which I think
> everyone will agree is small condolence but better than nothing.
>
> I will miss this newsgroup. The equivalent forum is lacking in
> community spirit (though that may improve as hopefully all of us migrate
> there).
The only good solution is an API. The storage is really a non-issue.
NNTP too because people can write bridges. And this one does seem to
do the basic job.
But they have solve nothing. The only real way to do what they want
is a complete lock out, one portal only using encryption (SSL). But
that will create all cans of issues unless the portal is highly
customizable and does not require javascript.
The other (or alternative) solution is to offer a NATIVE GUI, which
can be also part of the VS IDE support. WPF or Silverlight are good
candidates. In fact, I just used Chrome to create an application
shortcut for the MSDN forum and it is pretty fast.
A native GUI might also be required if EOLAS are able to enforce their
new patent on WEB 2.0 embedded activity. So far I don't see much on
MSDN Forums (once they do, EOLAS went after them for the tune of $504
MILLION and won once before, they will do it again).
So to do it right, an API even if it requires authentication, is what
needs to be done to address all issues.
I see all kinds of problems for Microsoft if they don't offer an API
and only make it exclusive to one vendor.
Note, this is all an opinion, but I feel pretty strong about it.
--
HLS
Joseph M. Newcomer
supported. The problem seems to be that if it isn't invented by Microosft, it doesn't
count.
joe
Joseph M. Newcomer
it. But that smacks of an Open Standard. Horrors!
joe
Joseph M. Newcomer
service. Occasional outages, less than a couple hours, no big deal. Highly reliable,
high bandwidth. The forum interface looks like something designed by a third-grader as a
semester project.
joe
Hector Santos
>> People, if we really want this then we need to find out if Microsoft
>> is open to keeping the NNTP servers active but that might mean on
>> proposing how they be managed.
>
> Why all this discussion? Bridged or not, the web forums will be
> proprietary to MS and controlled by them. I see this as mostly a move
> to exclude Google Groups from participation in the forums and a
> closure of the support system from a global resource to a private one
> that MS can censor or close at their discretion.
I agree that a silly attempt to lock out google might be seen, but all
GOOGLE needs to do is create an account and reverse engineer the
bridge HTTP request and response.
> The microsoft.public.* groups exist on NNTP servers around the globe
> whether or not the Microsoft NNTP servers exist or not. Unless
> Microsoft is prepared to make demands on those providers that the
> groups be deleted I see no reason to abandon use of the groups on
> other servers.
I been the primary host is Microsoft, in other words, GOOGLE and
others has to start somewhere to get the original source and then you
might have other mirrorings.
If MS stops the NNTP servers, I also will think they will not any
other kinds 3rd party branding using their name sake for non MS
newsgroups.
So it is interesting question that probably will be played out after
the servers is stopped. They may feel that there will be some legacy
time, 1, 2 or 3 years.
But consider that is there are an industry that make their living on
Microsoft groups and Microsoft does not provide an avenue for theirs
3rd party service bureaus, don't be surprise when one of these
proprietors wake up one morning and see their profits are seriously
down and call their lawyers when Microsoft denies them access to have
an automated exchange system - its called anti-trust or even tortious
inference.
It doesn't sound like they really though this through. I'm saying
their only option is an API to resolve this pending disruption that I
don't believe many will realize until it actually happens.
--
HLS
Hector Santos
> Sadly, it appears that the NNTP servers will be shut down, and NNTP will simply not be
> supported. The problem seems to be that if it isn't invented by Microosft, it doesn't
> count.
The MS NNTP Bridge is a 3rd party tool. It wasn't developed by
Microsoft. Go Figure. :)
I think it should be noted that Microsoft is not the only vendor that
people have to deal with. The main reason for MUAs is that it allows
one the ability to have one mail reader/write for most, if not all, of
their communications needs in dealing with technical support issues.
Microsoft is breaking this mode with an exclusive MUA method. The
bridge is the only redeeming value so all they really need is to
expose and API - the hell with OPEN STANDARDS if its requires a
committee, that takes too long and always seems to gets watered down.
They just need to dedicate one employee for 2-3 months to write up the
WEB service/REST/XML specification.
BTW, according to the stats on the equivalent MFC forum, it has a 28%
response rate (response to no responses), where here I am seeing
nearly 100%. Go Figure. :)
--
HLS
David Scambler
news:3hi1u517hmbrh029m...@4ax.com:
> This is sad. What is worse, they have an "NNTP bridge" mechanism (I
> found it on http://connect.microsoft.com/MicrosoftForums ) that is
> supposed to let us use our professionally-designed and
Speaking of adult supervision, who taught the nntp bridge folk to write an
english sentence?
"In developing this application, our team's goal is to enable a way for our
customers out there who wants to participate in the Microsoft Forum
communities, but does not yet find themselves comfortable with the
transition from the newsreader interface to the Forums Web interface."
Hector Santos
> On May 5, 3:22 am, "MP" <mpNoS...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Microsoft said it plans to end support for more than 4,000 old-style
>> newsgroups starting next month, pushing users instead to discussion forums
>> such as those found on the Microsoft Answers, TechNet, and MSDN sites.
>>
>> Although venerable, Microsoft said that so-called NNTP newsgroups are past
>> their time in terms of being usable and secure.
>
> I don't like this one bit. As Joe said, a dedicated NNTP client beats
> the hell out of any "forum" software. That's one reason against the
> decision. Another is that some people (me included) are accessing this
> through Google Groups (and I am sure that there are other sources). I
> prefer the format, for familiarity, for one, and also, I don't care
> logging on with a Passport account (I have one that I don't use much).
>
> Perhaps I'll just stop coming here. Oh well.
>
> Goran.
Well, now that I am more aware of the fact there were never any
merging of the two storages for what? the past, 3-4 years, the impact
should be a lot less.
When the transition from made from CompuServ to NNTP, the benefits
were immediately obvious:
1) No CompuServ account fees
2) No Dialup required
3) MUA like Outlook Express provided a better view, there was
hardly any good MUA for CompuServ, the few out there was
very poor. They were True Offline Mail technology where
it connected, check for uploads, check for downloads,
disconnected, you read, you responded, reconnected and
repeated the cycle.
and of course, on the down side:
4) It increased anonymous posting and spam.
But microsoft always had their own BBS installations too. Let me
lookup if they were once our customers ....... HA!
CID REGNO DATE CONTACT CORP, CITY, STATE
##### 90-01### 1990-08-27 Stu ######## Microsoft, Kirkland WA
##### 88-00### 1992-11-02 Lincoln #### Microsoft, Naples, ME
##### 93-02### 1993-04-20 Joseph ##### Microsoft, Irving T#
##### 93-03### 1993-08-09 Bill ####### MicroSoft, Irving T#
##### 93-04### 1993-08-12 Jason ##### Microsoft, Bellevue WA
##### 93-09### 1993-12-21 Dave ##### Microsoft, Redmond WA
##### 94-03### 1994-10-17 Brian ######## Microsoft, Redmond WA
##### 94-01### 1994-05-23 Hannes ######### Microsoft, Charlotte NC
##### 95-07### 1995-02-10 Mike ###### Microsoft, Kent WA
##### 96-08### 1996-01-02 Randy ##### Microsoft, Dallas T#
##### 96-01### 1996-04-15 Kristen ######## Microsoft, Redmond WA
##### 96-02### 1996-05-06 Archie ###### Microsoft, Irving, T#
##### 07-05### 1996-11-21 Chris ######## Microsoft, Redmond WA
Long time ago! They had the DOS version and finally ended up with the
1996 Windows Version. I'm sure some were for either direct dialup
support for customers or employees (Early Work From Home) and also
testing at least with the Windows version.
Anyway, I honestly felt there was merging the MS Forums with the MS
NNTP newsgroups. I'm surprise to realize they were not. Its a step
backwards back to their own centralize "BBS" installation but this
time with more flexibility to render dynamic displays, plus users
bandwidths are higher and almost guaranteed to have a connection to
the net.
Thats good, but if anything, the MS Forums site will be in a constant
flux as they improve it for the "social thing." And IMO, it is not
very friendly, and their dependency on cookies and javascript makes it
harder to get it right. Expect offloaded native GUI desktop clients
to be available soon enough.
My advice to them is to publish an API and allow the new industry from
here on out to write better or custom interfaces. Otherwise, it will
be a constant cost burden to them and no doubt, someone will reverse
engineer it, so take control of that by getting releasing an API.
--
HLS
David Ching
> Expect offloaded native GUI desktop clients to be available soon enough.
>
> My advice to them is to publish an API and allow the new industry from
> here on out to write better or custom interfaces. Otherwise, it will be a
> constant cost burden to them and no doubt, someone will reverse engineer
> it, so take control of that by getting releasing an API.
>
Microsoft originally had a Windows client written in WPF and in fact it is
still available but probably doesn't work because it hasn't been updated to
the latest forum API's: http://msdnforumsclient.codeplex.com/
They abandoned this and then focused on the NNTP Bridge. This is in light
that people were complaining the UI was inferior to popular NNTP
newsreaders. So for once Microsoft listened and gave what was asked for: a
way to re-purpose NNTP newsreaders for use with the MS forums.
The problem now is the Bridge still has issues with popular NNTP
newsreaders, notice how they have "tiers" of support for various newsreaders
with the Microsoft newsreaders being in the top tier. Even the top tier
newsreaders have issues, the main one getting a lot of noise esp. by our own
David Wilkinson is the "mismatched subject and body" problem. As well,
users are now saying, "well since this is NNTP why doesn't MS host the NNTP
server instead of me running it locally. I don't want to install new
software on my PC. And the bridge doesn't work on the Mac." So the bridge
is not perfect and may not ever be due to mismatches between NNTP and the
forum back end.
All this to say: it will be some time before MS opens the forum API's to
3rd parties, if ever.
-- David
Hector Santos
I'm currently doing research and I believe it is all already available
with Microsoft Live SDK. However, the REST protocol my not be well
established yet. Its not like impossible to reverse engineer, in fact,
its quite simple, just hover your mouse over the URL to see the common
pattern to access a forums list, a forum, a topic, a message, etc and
GET the request, and parse the result. I'm sure there is a URL option
that defines the output forum, like XML or RSS.
But overall, with the diverse nature of users, technically, there
should be no problem here. They need experts! I hope this isn't new
pet projects for a few employees that have to learn on their own what
long understood all the framework issues. You need a "CZAR" that
oversees all the different angles.
We do it with a centralized backend storage with multiple interfaces:
Console Interface (supports the "Extras")
Native GUI desktop interface (supports the "Extras")
Web Interface (supports the "Extras")
POP3 interface (RFC 2822 format)
NNTP interface (RFC 2822 format)
Microsoft Exchange for Outlook (RFC 2822 format)
and we are working on IMAP:
IMAP interface (RFC 2822 format, supports "some" extras)
(pondering, did I miss any?)
Anyway, this is only all possible with a common API.
Microsoft can actually make a big play here by offering RFC 2822
eXtended headers to help support the "Extras" because right now RFC
based MUAs do not support any eXtended headers. We keep talking about
it for all kinds of new MUA interface needs but there is no real push
because there is no big SOURCE of information to invest in this
development. Web rendering is the only real solution but there is no
common MAIL structure for all other than RFC 2822. But if we are just
talking about Microsoft, I can guarantee there will be a market for
MUA vendors to support "Microsoft Mail Extensions." That is all it
often takes when the big gorilla to support new ideas.
The MS NNTP bridge developer can expose this information itself and
the clients can do it. Or even the MS NNTP Servers if they choose to
keep it.
--
HLS
Hector Santos
is all possible with the Live Framework.
So we are talking about the exposure of the API via a simple layer for
clients to use, including MUAs. This presents new market
opportunities for RFC based MUAs to begin to implement new products.
This also presents a new market opportunity for a "Wildcat! Live
Exchange" <tm> for us to integrate into our Application Server.
So folks, this is not really much about the discontinuing of the
Microsoft NNTP Servers but rather promoting a push for Microsoft
product users to the preferred centralized Live "network" and storage
of data. I personally do not see a reason why that should be lost
other than not having more control of the input side of it, but
starting with a new controlled and single source storage/cloud of
information is probably not a bad idea.
The key is access.
I don't think people should sweat it much. If NNTP access is still
preferred with their favorite MUA, the current bridge is a start, but
I am very sure that will be other gateway software made available
using the Live Framework SDK.
I just hope that Ozzie doesn't get the idea that they should TAX users
or providers who accessing the information. Remember, that is still
always part of the equation. Many software, like our product offers
the accounting for such activity but it is very limited usage today.
It only worked well for special trade services where end-users have no
choice to pay extra fees for different tiers of technical support
services.
--
David Ching
> After reviewing David Threadwell video discussing Live Services, this is
> all possible with the Live Framework.
>
That's great Hector, I hadn't heard of the Live Framework. BTW, I'm not
sure you can access it but check out
https://connect.microsoft.com/MicrosoftForums/messageboards/community.aspx
for access to the NNTP bridge discussion newsgroup.
-- David
Cholo Lennon
> Microsoft said it plans to end support for more than 4,000 old-style
> newsgroups starting next month, pushing users instead to discussion
> forums such as those found on the Microsoft Answers, TechNet, and MSDN
> sites.
>
> Although venerable, Microsoft said that so-called NNTP newsgroups are
> past their time in terms of being usable and secure.
>
Very sad news... another stupid decision from Microsoft :-( What can I
say... web forms aren't the way to go...
--
Cholo Lennon
Bs.As.
ARG
Bo Persson
>> There is an MFC
>> forum:http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/vcmfcatl/threads
>
No.
Hector Santos
I was there already. :)
Here is how to start developing for Live Services:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb404791.aspx
Comes with excellent C# example.
--
HLS
Hector Santos
http://services.social.microsoft.com/forumsServicePreview/ForumsService.svc
:)
Its all done. Watch out NNTP BRIDGE people - experts are on the move
now :)
Nahhh, I have no intention of duplicating what they did. It seems to
work fine. I would ask:
- remember the last screen position,
- option to auto go to the system task tray,
- option to auto login, auto startup.
- option to set server IP (not just 127.0.0.1)
- option to use different server port,
some people actually have already their own NNTP server.
Probably some of these already there, but I don't see it.
--
Joseph M. Newcomer
Perl, Python, C, C++, ...) [In general, I have found that programmers of foreign birth and
culture speak and write better English than native-born American students. Not always,
but almost always].
I have spent many years training programmers to write coherent sentences, mostly because I
was once one of these inarticulate people. I spent years learning to write English, most
of it starting with trying to write a PhD dissertation. U.S. high schools and colleges
are horrible at teaching English; they fixate on lit. crit., or explaining what Melville
REALLY mean in Chapter 25 of Moby Dick, or the evolution of the 20th-century American
novel, without ONCE touching on fundamental communications skills in the students
themselves! I consider this a tremendous disservice to the students, and I was one of the
failures. I've also spent years repairing other colleges' failures. CMU now offers
courses in writing to its graduate students, as do several other local universities.
joe
Joseph M. Newcomer
On Wed, 05 May 2010 22:14:46 -0400, Hector Santos <sant...@nospam.gmail.com> wrote:
>Joseph M. Newcomer wrote:
>
>> Sadly, it appears that the NNTP servers will be shut down, and NNTP will simply not be
>> supported. The problem seems to be that if it isn't invented by Microosft, it doesn't
>> count.
>
>
>The MS NNTP Bridge is a 3rd party tool. It wasn't developed by
>Microsoft. Go Figure. :)
>
>I think it should be noted that Microsoft is not the only vendor that
>people have to deal with. The main reason for MUAs is that it allows
>one the ability to have one mail reader/write for most, if not all, of
>their communications needs in dealing with technical support issues.
>
>Microsoft is breaking this mode with an exclusive MUA method. The
>bridge is the only redeeming value so all they really need is to
>expose and API - the hell with OPEN STANDARDS if its requires a
>committee, that takes too long and always seems to gets watered down.
****
An Open Standard merely requires disclosure, not comittees.
****
>
>They just need to dedicate one employee for 2-3 months to write up the
>WEB service/REST/XML specification.
****
And the intelligence to recognize that this is actually an important task to allocate
resources to.
****
>
>BTW, according to the stats on the equivalent MFC forum, it has a 28%
>response rate (response to no responses), where here I am seeing
>nearly 100%. Go Figure. :)
****
This is because children have their own agendas, which are very self-centered. Never try
to confuse a child with facts. It demonstrates why adult supervision is required for
major changes like this. To be an adult, more than 21 years of experience in the
particular sub-area is required.
joe
****
Joseph M. Newcomer
"Hey, guys, we need to make a decision on this. We have 4,000 forums supporting on the
order of 250,000 end users. They use NNTP, and we want to stop supporting that"
"So what? We don't support NNTP any longer, because someone else invented it and it is an
open standard, so screw 'em. Give our new hire the job of creating a Web site to do it.
Everything is done by Web sites, right? Besides, didn't we just send him to that
JavaScript course?"
I may be wrong. But a decision to kill off the NNTP forums sounds like nobody at
Microsoft was in touch with reality. Or, as we often phrase it "their reality-distortion
field was running full force that day".
joe
Joseph M. Newcomer
say anything sooner, but we were under NDA). My comment was that as soon as they expose
the API, the newsgroup reader industry will be motivated to build code that interfaces to
that API. Leaving the design of the user interface up to a bunch of web amateurs is not a
viable solution (and I said it exactly like that; it is clear that the people who design
Microsoft's Web sites are really a bunch of beginners at this!)
So if the API is exposed, I would push Forte (vendor of my favorite NG reader) into
considering a Microsoft-forum-capable version of Agent, so the silliness of the unusable
Microsoft interface is no longer an issue.
NNTP is merely a transport mechanism to a competently-designed NG reader (or a MUA,
whatever that is!); I don't care if the underlying interface is NNTP or something else, as
long as I can have a decent presentation that looks like it was designed by someone who at
least once HEARD about a newsgroup before doing the design!
joe
Giovanni Dicanio
> I may be wrong. But a decision to kill off the NNTP forums sounds like
> nobody at
> Microsoft was in touch with reality. Or, as we often phrase it "their
> reality-distortion
> field was running full force that day".
I think that they can do money on the web forums thanks to advertising; this
is not possible with NNTP newsgroups.
And on the web forum it is possible to delete posts and threads or move them
around (again, not possible with NNTP).
Giovanni
BobF
>
> Ajay Kalra wrote:
>
>> On May 4, 10:22 pm, "David Ching" <d...@remove-this.dcsoft.com> wrote:
>>> "MP" <mpNoS...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>
>>> news:esIqxF$6KHA...@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>>>
>>>> newsgroups starting next month, pushing users instead to discussion
>>>> forums
>>>> such as those found on the Microsoft Answers, TechNet, and MSDN sites.
>> guess MSFT is getting everyone all under one big umbrella.
>
> Do you know if the have a API (REST for example) for accessing the
> Microsoft Forums network?
>
> Lets remember, the key thing here or lost is there NNTP server network.
> That is what is the key thing is.
>
I remember going through this very thing with an audio s/w vendor in
'03. Funny thing is that the newsgroups continue to thrive even though
they took their own server down.
The reason is simple. The newsgroup was propagated to servers
throughout usenet.
For example, this post is from news.eternal-september.org
The solution is simple. Reconfigure to different servers and continue
on as if the MS servers never existed.
Hector Santos
What are the list of the "FREE" news servers that support the
microsoft groups?
Personally, I am only interested in maybe a dozen or so. I think
Microsoft should continue serving a NNTP server with their name sake
groups but cut down on the groups.
I can host a nntp server as well but I would only want to gate a
selected group.
--
HLS
David Ching
news:hs160b$e9f$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> The solution is simple. Reconfigure to different servers and continue on
> as if the MS servers never existed.
>
Unfortunately most of the major ISP's don't offer NNTP newsgroups anymore,
so will there be any free servers to access? I subscribe to Giganews, but
that costs $.
-- David
Michael Fosmire [MSFT]
I've requested that the author fix those grammatical errors.
-mike
"David Scambler" <aa@aa> wrote in message
news:Xns9D70A6CE599...@203.50.5.233...
Stephen Wolstenholme
<sant...@nospam.gmail.com> wrote:
>What are the list of the "FREE" news servers that support the
>microsoft groups?
>
news.eternal-september.org is a good one to try. The chap who runs
that server has already said he has no intention to remove the
Microsoft groups.
>Personally, I am only interested in maybe a dozen or so. I think
>Microsoft should continue serving a NNTP server with their name sake
>groups but cut down on the groups.
>
Most of the groups are not used.
Steve
--
Neural Planner Software Ltd www.NPSL1.com
EasyNN-plus. Neural Networks plus. www.easynn.com
SwingNN. Forecast with Neural Networks. www.swingnn.com
JustNN. Just Neural Networks. www.justnn.com
BobF
The example I posted from is a FREE nntp server.
There is also news.aioe.org and news.telesweet.net
I agree that relying on free nntp servers isn't the best solution.
However, if MS continues with their plans ....
Tom Serface
I think the link posted *is* the new place. There is not a new newsgroup,
but I'm glad that MSFT did open up an MFC forum. It shows that they are
still serious about supporting MFC. They could have, just as easily, lumped
us in with C++ General and C++ Language like they had done previously.
Tom
"Bo Persson" <b...@gmb.dk> wrote in message
news:84gdev...@mid.individual.net...
Tom Serface
Hi G,
I think that is a factor, but the biggest factor, in my opinion, is tracking
participation and ensuring that the customer's experience (look and feel,
accessibility, etc.) is the best it can be. We are pretty high power users
and don't care about bells and whistles that much, but I think the typical
MSFT Windows 7 customer likes the fancier looking interface.
I also think the forums protect the content.
Tom
"Giovanni Dicanio" <giovanniD...@REMOVEMEgmail.com> wrote in message
news:uPP0v1b7...@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
Tom Serface
I think it would be in MSFT's best interest to control the API as much as
possible. If people use the bridge and newsreaders they don't have as much
control over what is seen on the screen (other kinds of content). If I were
them I'd want to the ability to have better control over the whole
experience.
Tom
"Joseph M. Newcomer" <newc...@flounder.com> wrote in message
news:biv6u5hniaduavmrq...@4ax.com...
Tom Serface
where you've answered questions previously and I like the email notification
when questions have responses.
You are right though that it is a little slower to pop up. I haven't tried
the bridge software recently. I may give that a crack and see how it works
out. The one I tried months ago required that I run some separate program
simultaneously with the Windows Mail program and it didn't work very well
(posts weren't getting sent up and some weren't brought down). Could be all
of those issues are fixed now. I'll take another look.
Tom
"David Lowndes" <Dav...@example.invalid> wrote in message
news:35s3u5h82s501v0pm...@4ax.com...
>>I've just been using the web interface and it's not so bad once you get
>>used to it. I have to be careful not to accidentally do something that
>>makes it go "back" or I lose everything I've typed and offline work is not
>>possible, but it's not too bad.
>
> It's OK for asking questions, but I really can't face it for answering
> - life's too short.
>
> Dave
David Ching
news:uAlJgRf7...@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
> The example I posted from is a FREE nntp server.
>
> There is also news.aioe.org and news.telesweet.net
>
Thanks Bob. I thought your example was the audio sw newsgroup you were
talking about! :-O
-- David
Michael Fosmire [MSFT]
Thanks!
-mike
"Michael Fosmire [MSFT]" <mik...@online.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:87DED77A-89DB-409A...@microsoft.com...
Pete Delgado
"Tom Serface" <t...@camaswood.com> wrote in message
news:ue$VuEK7K...@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
> I've just been using the web interface and it's not so bad once you get
> used to it. I have to be careful not to accidentally do something that
> makes it go "back" or I lose everything I've typed and offline work is not
> possible, but it's not too bad.
>
Tom,
I don't really have a problem with the manner in which the interface works,
but rather what is lost. For example, with nntp you can download all current
messages for offline viewing. While you can certainly try to cache the forum
using IE or a variety of other tools, I suspect that the JavaScript code
that guides the beahviour of the forum will not allow this to work properly.
...and speaking of JavaScript, people like Joe who refuse to allow it to run
on their machines are removed from the community. Thus we lose Joe's
valuable experience and knowledge.
Then we have the case of mobile devices on which these relatively "heavy"
pages either do not render properly or are sluggish or inoperable because of
the scripting behind the pages or the size of the download. As a relatively
"lightweight" technology, the pure text newsgroup is much better for mobile
devices. Take a look at the size of each page that must be downloaded from
the forums on a mobile device. Most of what is downloaded for each page is
boilerplate markup and script. While some browsers can cache external script
and CSS files, the html written for the forums appears to not optimize that
aspect.
I also dislike the fact that posters and responders cannot remain anonymous.
I think it restricts the discussion.
Finally, I believe I may have already mentioned that you cannot filter out
particular posts, subjects etc. with the forum software. Something that you
can do with many newsreader clients.
-Pete
Bo Persson
> I think the link posted *is* the new place. There is not a new
> newsgroup, but I'm glad that MSFT did open up an MFC forum. It
> shows that they are still serious about supporting MFC. They could
> have, just as easily, lumped us in with C++ General and C++
> Language like they had done previously.
> Tom
Well, I rather meant that not all of us here will show up there.
If the forum style is the only way of following these discussions, I'm
out.
Bo Persson
Hector Santos
> Tom Serface wrote:
>> I think the link posted *is* the new place. There is not a new
>> newsgroup, but I'm glad that MSFT did open up an MFC forum. It
>> shows that they are still serious about supporting MFC. They could
>> have, just as easily, lumped us in with C++ General and C++
>> Language like they had done previously.
>> Tom
>
> Well, I rather meant that not all of us here will show up there.
>
> If the forum style is the only way of following these discussions, I'm
> out.
Bo, don't worry, either they will fix the NNTP bridge or someone will
do a better job. I am interested myself of writing a NNTP gateway.
Plus I envision better desktop clients that specifically provide tech
support as you want it without all the candy and extras.
The problem with the desktop issue is that I feel you will get that
with many vendors as they see this as been a very good way to offer
better services. I know because that is what we have as well for a
long time. It works for us because we have a dedicated service. It
might work for Microsoft too.
X number of people like Online (Web)
Y number of people like Online (Native GUI)
Z number of people line Store and Forward (RFC-based protocols)
To assume X and Z will fully accept and adopt X method is both naive
and not fully understanding of the customer support spectrum. I think
MS is making some hard decisions before they haven't abandon the idea
that there are multiple portals of customer support.
The Live Framework SDK is available for any young punk entrepreneur to
do anything he wants.
--
HLS
Joseph M. Newcomer
a serious problem with the Reality Distortion Field. It is interesting to watch the
evolution of users over time, and as soon as they stop being newbies (usually after a few
tens of hours of using the product) the newbie interfaces become painful to them; they
want to get a smoother interface.
As soon as someone says "protect <X>" I always ask "protect from what? And why? And what
are the consequences of it not being protected against whatever?" If I have to do one of
those horrible Captcha interfaces each time I access the newsgroup, I will probably lend
up not participating, because I actually have problems with those (I get the wrong about
20% of the time). And it is an artificial barrier I do not want to deal with. So if we
are protecting against spam, who determines it is spam?
If someone is going to "move posts around" in the forums, who is the person who is going
to be doing that? Decades ago, I was the moderator for a NG I was in, and it began to
interfere with my real work,it took so much time. NG moderation is best done in
moderation.
joe
****
Joseph M. Newcomer
will do so. Normally, I turn off playing sounds and all forms of animation, which makes
the experience of some Web sites almost tolerable.
joe
Jerry Coffin
newc...@flounder.com says...
[ ... ]
> I may be wrong. But a decision to kill off the NNTP forums sounds
> like nobody at Microsoft was in touch with reality. Or, as we
> often phrase it "their reality-distortion field was running full
> force that day".
I think the impact of this announcement may be getting exaggerated a
bit. In fact, if Microsoft had simply shut down their servers
(without making a public announcement of doing so) I doubt much of
anybody would have even noticed.
NNTP allows almost any group of cooperating servers to exchange news,
with no no reliance on one server or group of servers (such as
Microsoft's). From a technical viewpoint, Microsoft shutting down
their servers means nothing unless 1) you use them directly as your
newsfeed, or 2) the sole path from you to some other group of servers
is through them.
Doing a quick search of headers of the articles I have on hand, I
can't find a single post that originated from, or passed through, a
Microsoft server to get to me. Some people may be seeing articles
that come to them via a Microsoft server, but if so it's a fairly
simple change in configuration to get news from elsewhere instead.
The one problem this might cause would be more from the announcement
than the shutdown itself. Some other administrators might quit
carrying these newsgroups just because Microsoft did. If too many do,
that could cause a problem, even though (from a technical
perspective) things would be just fine.
--
Later,
Jerry.
r norman
Thank you for a touch of reality. Just how many answers to questions
on these news groups comes from Microsoft, anyway? If few or none (at
least on the dozen news groups I follow, then what will change?
Do they have the ability to shut down the name "microsoft.public." ?
Tom Serface
discussions. I think they are just saying that they will not support NNTP
either with their people or their hardware going forward. There are lots of
other communities (like StackOverflow, CodeProject, etc.) that are not part
of Microsoft's domain and are still quite popular.
Tom
"Jerry Coffin" <jerryv...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.264d69f8f...@news.sunsite.dk...
Cholo Lennon
Well Pete, you have made an excellent description about the cons of web
forums. I totally agree with you. As you said, even using mobile
browsers with compression (like opera mini/mobile), is
annoying/expensive/time consuming/etc the use of web forums. I like the
simplicity of text newsgroups, I don't mind if I don't have syntax
coloring, different fonts, etc, etc.
Regards
--
Cholo Lennon
Bs.As.
ARG
--
Cholo Lennon
Bs.As.
ARG
Stephen Wolstenholme
wrote:
> We are pretty high power users
>and don't care about bells and whistles that much, but I think the typical
>MSFT Windows 7 customer likes the fancier looking interface.
>
The "typical" Windows 7 customer is confused by the fancier looking
interface. Many disable the bells and whistles as soon as they find
out how.
>I also think the forums protect the content.
>
Protect from what?
Stephen Wolstenholme
wrote:
>Thank you for a touch of reality. Just how many answers to questions
>on these news groups comes from Microsoft, anyway? If few or none (at
>least on the dozen news groups I follow, then what will change?
>
>Do they have the ability to shut down the name "microsoft.public." ?
If they do we can always move to the MFC group in comp hierarchy.
Hector Santos
IMO, the reality is the centralization of MS NTTP Servers provided.
Those other SITES only proved to work and be reliable with great
participation only because on the backend one way or another, directly
or indirectly, they were connecting to the main source:
What people do not realize is that these microsoft.public.* were not
part of the usenet backbone. So its not like losing the MS NNTP
Server and everything will remain the same.
No. Once that host is gone, the great participation we come to realize
from all over the world will be cut off and cut down. In fact, you
will see a major cut down in MVP input as well as the input from
prolific participators.
> Do they have the ability to shut down the name "microsoft.public." ?
I don't think they fully realize the impact with the "3rd party
branding" issues. Maybe they do and have outlined a plan when they
cross that bridge.
--
HLS
Joseph M. Newcomer
Experience" and by this they mean "you love to have annoying musing played, terminally
cutesy animations shown, and pointeless videos to watch".
I have found that most Web videos suffer from low information bandwidth, and could be done
as text which I could read much faster than the video delivery presents. I can read a
1-hour video content in about 10 minutes, so why would I want to waste an hour watching a
video that conveys nothing more than the text document?
Screw "rich multimedia experience". When you replace this with "malware vector enabling
technology" (which is all that it appears to be) then it is even more obvious how bad it
is.
I don't need pictures; imagine how many horrible screen shots we are going to have to
download if people can post images! The forum interfaces are among the worst interfaces I
have seen in a long time, and I work in the newsgroups because the bandwidth usage is
effective. I don't waste time with boring videos, I don't need to enable any malware
vectors, and I don't have to see annoying flashing ads and be annoyed by other "rich
multimedia" features (the second time I got blasted by offensive rock music on a Web site,
I disabled the speakers on my computer; then I found there was a way to disable playing
sounds in the browser).
My desire to maintain the integrity of my site means I have never used YouTube, FaceBook,
Yahoo Groups, or any of other social networking site (I think most social sites are a
waste of time, although the Olcott Saga absorbed far more time than it deserved), and I
never use any information site that requires that I register or login.
joe
Bo Persson
Hear, hear!
Bo Persson
Hector Santos
HA! The server restricted the TOO many quoted lines.. cutting it down....
Cholo Lennon
Joseph M. Newcomer wrote:
> One of the myths Microsoft loves to propagate is the concept of "a rich multiemedia Web
> Experience" and by this they mean "you love to have annoying musing played, terminally
> cutesy animations shown, and pointeless videos to watch".
>
> I have found that most Web videos suffer from low information bandwidth, and could be done
> as text which I could read much faster than the video delivery presents. I can read a
> 1-hour video content in about 10 minutes, so why would I want to waste an hour watching a
> video that conveys nothing more than the text document?
>
> Screw "rich multimedia experience". When you replace this with "malware vector enabling
> technology" (which is all that it appears to be) then it is even more obvious how bad it
> is.
>
> I don't need pictures; imagine how many horrible screen shots we are going to have to
> download if people can post images! The forum interfaces are among the worst interfaces I
> have seen in a long time, and I work in the newsgroups because the bandwidth usage is
> effective. I don't waste time with boring videos, I don't need to enable any malware
> vectors, and I don't have to see annoying flashing ads and be annoyed by other "rich
> multimedia" features (the second time I got blasted by offensive rock music on a Web site,
> I disabled the speakers on my computer; then I found there was a way to disable playing
> sounds in the browser).
>
> My desire to maintain the integrity of my site means I have never used YouTube, FaceBook,
> Yahoo Groups, or any of other social networking site (I think most social sites are a
> waste of time, although the Olcott Saga absorbed far more time than it deserved), and I
> never use any information site that requires that I register or login.
> joe
Hey Joe (god bless you jimi hendrix! :-), I can't stop laughing (and
crying!) with your words, you're right!, I agree with you 100%, "rich
multimedia experience" must be "wait...wait... (for) a multimedia
experience :-P
Jerry Coffin
@nospam.gmail.com says...
[ ... ]
> Those other SITES only proved to work and be reliable with great
> participation only because on the backend one way or another, directly
> or indirectly, they were connecting to the main source:
>
> msnews.microsoft.com
Do you have any evidence that this is really true?
An NNTP article has a "Path:" header that tells what servers it went
through on the way from source to destination. I've done a search on
all the messages in this newsgroup from a couple of different servers
(aioe.org and sunsite.de) for roughly the last month. Of those, not
even *one* message has a Path showing that it either originated from
or passed through a Microsoft server at any point to get to those
servers.
Based on what I've been able to find so far, it's entirely possible
that Microsoft has actually already had their servers shut down for
months now. I'm not saying that *is* the case, but I am saying that I
can't find any evidence that a significant, or even insignificant,
percentage of messages here depend on their servers, or even go
through their servers at all.
--
Later,
Jerry.
![Doug Harrison [MVP]'s profile photo](http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/a-/ALV-UjVvzhOQGbT9K0Re6Qg-OU4VGuHq0tAdTu01YlmIjUGm6t_o8g=s40-c)
Doug Harrison [MVP]
wrote:
>An NNTP article has a "Path:" header that tells what servers it went
>through on the way from source to destination. I've done a search on
>all the messages in this newsgroup from a couple of different servers
>(aioe.org and sunsite.de) for roughly the last month. Of those, not
>even *one* message has a Path showing that it either originated from
>or passed through a Microsoft server at any point to get to those
>servers.
>
>Based on what I've been able to find so far, it's entirely possible
>that Microsoft has actually already had their servers shut down for
>months now. I'm not saying that *is* the case, but I am saying that I
>can't find any evidence that a significant, or even insignificant,
>percentage of messages here depend on their servers, or even go
>through their servers at all.
Here's a counter-example for ya. :)
I don't know if this ever improved, but it used to be that the Microsoft
servers were really unreliable at propagating news. For example, before
Agent supported multiple servers, I tried to use the Microsoft groups as
presented on the AT&T WorldNet servers. Most of my posts never made it to
the Microsoft servers. After several months fighting this, I conceded it
was no longer worth the trouble and began to use multiple instances of
Agent, with one dedicated to the Microsoft servers. Ever since, I've only
ever posted to and read from the Microsoft servers.
--
Doug Harrison
Visual C++ MVP
Uwe Kotyczka
posted in many of the affected groups. The response was quite
different. In some groups there was no response at all, in
others there were discussions about the alternatives. But nowhere
I read about protest against MS' decision.
I really would like to tell MS that this is really bad. But how?
Simply writung an email to MS? I'm sure I will not even get an
answer. Or, if so, it will be some computer generated blabla.
I have the feeling to face a giant helplessly. Even more if
I see no regular and no MVP to consider any protest.
Looking at the discussed alternatives I see 3 general lines:
- Some seem to arrange with the forums. They discuss about the
NNTP bridge.
- Some think about going to other existing (or not yet existing)
groups somewhere in comp.* or <language>.comp.*
- some hope that the affected groups will be hosted by other
providers and hope the groups will not die.
I think that everyone will take his own strategy to arrangre
with the situation and think that therefore many excellelent
"communities" will break.
What can we do against that? Is there any chance at all?
Hector Santos
Rather than try to explain a rather complex concept in mail
distribution practice, to get a grasp of how it works read section 9
and 10 of RFC 1849 which is as recent as of March 2010.
http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1849#section-9
http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1849#section-10
In the end, which is really not justice to explain it all, is that you
will not really know what the impact will be until the plug is pulled
at msnews.microsoft.com.
But as a matter of evidence, in general, I know its true because we
develop, market and sell mail hosting servers for the past 25+ years
that operate for multiple mail distribution networks. Once the name
sake "owners" of a support forum, newsgroup(s) "echo(s)" as they were
called in Fidonet, are gone, generally the activity will be cut
drastically. In principle, that is because most people will go to
"source" of their vendor, especially when it is free and direct. You
don't need any other site or ISP with usenet feed access if you are
only interested in microsoft support.
PS: Not sure if you are aware but the host names "phx.gbl" is used by
microsoft when a posting arrives at their site. e.g.;
Message-ID: <uoQdDuj7...@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl>
Newsgroups: microsoft.public.vc.mfc
Path: TK2MSFTNGP01.phx.gbl!TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl
PSS: Also see RFC 1036 and see the major notes added since then into
RFC 1859, especially in regards to the mix semantics of redundancy.
For long time implementators such as myself, it really hasn't changed
when it comes to providing the hosting options for operators, but
because of better hardware, higher bandwidths, there is a certain
amount of allowance before red flags are raised. You are not going to
worry about an individual posting the same message at 5 different
sites because he is impatience. The dupes will be caught. However
whem it comes to host to host distribution, for active feeds, you
might accept some form of redundancy in case a site is down, but you
consistency see in your logs the servers are working overtime to trap
a huge set of dupes, then some node on the network is pumping dupes
unnecessarily. No one will care until someone notices and maybe
because of a bug up his butt, he might want to so something about it.
--
HLS
BobF
news.eternal-september.org is my primary. I use aioe and telesweet as
backups - which I don't need very often ...
Stephen Wolstenholme
<sant...@nospam.gmail.com> wrote:
>In the end, which is really not justice to explain it all, is that you
>will not really know what the impact will be until the plug is pulled
>at msnews.microsoft.com.
AAMOI I disabled msnews.microsoft.com in the client application I use
tow days ago. Messages are still arriving. Your message came via
news.highwinds-media.com
Hector Santos
> On Mon, 10 May 2010 08:28:53 -0400, Hector Santos
> <sant...@nospam.gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> In the end, which is really not justice to explain it all, is that you
>> will not really know what the impact will be until the plug is pulled
>> at msnews.microsoft.com.
>
> AAMOI I disabled msnews.microsoft.com in the client application I use
> tow days ago. Messages are still arriving. Your message came via
> news.highwinds-media.com
>
> Steve
Hi Stephen,
.... which came via someone else, and someone else, and somewhere
else, that came originally from msnews.microsoft.com (phx.gbl).
What I'm saying is that once the msnews.microsoft.com (or the alais
news.microsoft.com) host is no longer available, you will no longer
see any mail that would of originated here. It is my opinion that many
people (and servers) still go directly to news.microsoft.com,
specially in the USA. I say that as a product support person.
Anyway, if Microsoft really want to make this a smooth transition,
Microsoft can solve this via DNS
Change the A records for sub-domains
news.microsoft.com
msnews.microsoft.com
which currently point to (using NSLOOKUP, open dos window)
nslookup news.microsoft.com
Non-authoritative answer:
Name: msnews.microsoft.com
Address: 207.46.248.16
Aliases: news.microsoft.com
to some other trusted usenet feed IP address.
Try it yourself. Its an easy test.
1) Edit your HOSTS file, example, for me:
notepad f:\windows\system32\drivers\etc\hosts
2) Add a line:
69.16.176.253 msnews.microsoft.com
The IP is your news.highwinds-media.com
nslookup news.highwinds-media.com
Non-authoritative answer:
Name: newsfarm.ams2.highwinds-media.com
Address: 69.16.176.253
Aliases: news.highwinds-media.com
So basically, you are using your HOSTS file as a little Poor's Man DNS
server directory database to redirect host name IP resolution.
Now you didn't have to change your CLIENT msnew.microsoft.com setup.
If anything, probably need to add authentication because
msnews.microsoft.com did not need authentication.
But since the two sites share a common LIST:
microsoft.public.*
it should work the same.
However, the transition is not as smooth.
1) The authentication issue. If microsoft changed the A records, then
they will need to choose a site that doesn't require
authentication.
2) Depending on the client, reindexing may be required since the
"last read pointers" might not be persistent. So they need to
find a site that has a direct mirror of the newsgroups "pointer"
wise.
Finally, keep in mind that according to Microsoft and the "Gate
Keepers" of the usenet "LISTING", they plan to remove the
microsoft.public.* newsgroups starting June 1 and up to the next 6
months. So your site will no longer had the groups to post in if its
remains to be on par with usenet change notifications.
1) First a message by the "gate keepers:"
http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.news.server/msg/6cf4bbc6284d92a3
Julien �LIE <iul...@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid> writes:
> I just wanted to let you know that I will issue rmgroup control
> articles, reflecting the changes that are bound to happen on
> msnews.microsoft.com, when they occur. Therefore, if you want to
> go on carrying these Microsoft newsgroups, you should not honour
> my PGP key:
> http://usenet.trigofacile.com/hierarchies/index.py?see=MICROSOFT
> Note that a lot of microsoft.public.* is already obsolete
> and unused.
Thanks. For all the reasons previously discussed, I think this is
the right move. The whole point of that hierarchy was that it was
synchronized with Microsoft; without that point, there are lots of
other hierarchies that can absorb the traffic, and without spreading
it across way more groups than the residual traffic is likely to
require.
2) Second, this is the update to microsoft announcement:
-----------------
Update - Microsoft Responds to the Evolution of Community
(Posted in microsoft.public.msn.netnews.discussion)
o What is Happening?
This message is to inform you that Microsoft will soon begin
discontinuing newsgroups and transitioning users to Microsoft forums.
o Why?
As you may know, newsgroups have existed for many years now; however,
the traffic in the Microsoft newsgroups has been steadily decreasing
for the past several years while customers and participants are
increasingly finding solutions in the forums on Microsoft properties
and third party sites. This move will unify the customer experience,
centralize content, make it easier for active contributors to retain
their influence, mitigate redundancies and make the content easier to
find by customers and search engines through improved indexing.
Additionally, forums offer a better user and spam management platform
that will improve customer satisfaction by encouraging a healthy
discussion in a clean community space. To this end, Microsoft will
begin to progressively shift available resources to the forums
technology and discontinue support for newsgroups.
In addition to offering a compelling online browser experience, for
those users who prefer to use an NNTP (newsgroup) reader to
participate in the newsgroups community, we have developed a solution
called the NNTP Bridge which allows a user to connect a variety of
supported NNTP readers to the forums they would like to participate in
and continue having the NTTP reader functionality. You can find
instructions on how to download and set up the NNTP Bridge here:
http://connect.microsoft.com/MicrosoftForums/
o Which Newsgroups Are Affected by this Shutdown?
All public newsgroups will eventually be closed between June 1, 2010
and October 1, 2010. Microsoft will be closing newsgroups in a phased
approach, starting with the least active newsgroups and moving
eventually to more active ones throughout the course of the next six
months.
o When will this Happen?
Effective June 1, 2010 this newsgroup will be closed.
o Where Should I go with the Closure of this Newsgroup?
Microsoft has a large selection of forums, many of which cover either
the same or closely related technologies to the ones found in the
newsgroups. The forums have seen amazing growth and are an excellent
place to continue the discussion. We recommend that you start with
http://windowslivehelp.com/
Should you want to visit the other Microsoft Forums, please go to
http://www.microsoft.com/communities/forums/default.mspx
o Who Should I Contact with any Questions?
Send any questions about the process, recommended forums and timing to
NN...@microsoft.com
-----------------
Again, we don't know until it finally does happen.
--
HLS
Hector Santos
BobF
I just configured it - not bad! (this is from there)
Hector Santos
This is a classic case of "Who Moved My Cheeze?"
http://www.whomovedmycheese.com
which deals with the aspect of change and adapting to change. The
moral is that those who do not "adapt" will die.
But the fundamental question of "Why the Cheese was Moved?" in the
first place can always be questioned. So for Microsoft, "Why move the
cheese?" is also a question for them and unfortunately, there will be
many angles to it.
From my perspective, that was important is that they had two separate
avenues, i.e., they were not merged or single source:
microsoft.public.*
MS Forums
They created the problem by not focusing on single sourcing it.
There are other aspects:
1) Authentication
2) Quality of Mail
There is a directly proportional relational between the two. The
msnew.microsoft.com servers did not require authentication, so it was
more open for abuse.
On the other hand, news site that require authentication is weak too
(any junk address can be used), so that doesn't stop quality of mail
too, but there is some more restriction than being completely open.
Then you have the corporate strategies of groupware (Which is Ray
Ozzie's baby) and leveraging the BI (Business Intelligence) of the
information collected.
I will tell you from our own experiences, CHANGE IS HARD. Those who
are been at this for a long time, are stuck between a rock in a hard
place. Established companies do not have the luxury of change as new
companies do where they can start fresh with current practice and
methods, the fad of the day.
There are many pluses and minuses.
I think that Microsoft "SHOULD" reduce the microsoft.public.* to the
more active ones and keep a lower overhead server around, and get/hire
some real mail system experts to help them "Merge" it with the forums
or basically make it single source so that it doesn't matter how you
access. In my experience, this would have a lower impact.
That said, there are times where you have to accept the fact the
cheese was moved and adapt to it.
But we won't really know, and probably won't see how amount of
discontent occurs, until it finally happens. Its like the Classic
Coke vs New Coke dilemma. The company spent millions developing what
was considered a well conceived plan to get rid of the old coke and
come out with a new coke, until it finally happen and the backlashing
and PR problems began - the result, Classic Coke.
Maybe we will see a cleaner and better Classic Microsoft NNTP server
emerge from all this ....... or maybe not. :)
--
HLS
Hector Santos
For the record, I did a quick import (into rnews bag files) to see
where the mail is posted in two groups:
microsoft.public.win32.programmer.kernel
microsoft.public.vc.mfc
Of course, its all relative and the recent increase of mail does tilt
it but I wanted to see at least with these batches, what are the
percentages per posting host.
microsoft.public.win32.programmer.kernel
Total: last 140 message
92 phx.gbl (This is public Microsoft NNTP server)
18 microsoft.com (MFST people??)
14 googlegroups.com
1 4ax.com
3 gmx.de
6 t-online.com
6 de.boyne.pollard.localhost (troll <g>)
So at least 76% of the messages originated from microsoft servers.
microsoft.public.vc.mfc
Total: Last 596 messages
1 news.t-online.com
1 newsguy.com
2 kltpzyxm.invalid
2 news.ett.com.ua
2 news.sunsite.dk
3 203.50.5.233
3 giganews.com
3 news.eternal-september.org
3 speranza.aioe.org
4 mid.individual.net
5 news.astraweb.com
7 iad
12 news.inode.at
48 microsoft.com
98 googlegroup.som
162 4ax.com (Joseph M. Newcomer)
240 phx.gbl
I think the quick sorting and counting is right, but as u can see, the
microsoft.com and phx.gbl combined make up atleast 48%. Of course,
the numbers are tilted because many of the messages are from just a
few individuals within the last 600 or so messages, but then again,
that would normally be the case with most topics.
Another analysis is to sort by participants and see what are the
unique posting hosts.
--
Jerry Coffin wrote:
--
HLS
Hector Santos
postings.
But now we let the cat out of the bag, and with more user connections,
the server will began to slow down. :)
Joseph M. Newcomer
On Mon, 10 May 2010 01:15:26 -0700 (PDT), Uwe Kotyczka <uwe.ko...@web.de> wrote:
>The message, that MS wants to shut down it's news servers was
>posted in many of the affected groups. The response was quite
>different. In some groups there was no response at all, in
>others there were discussions about the alternatives. But nowhere
>I read about protest against MS' decision.
>
>I really would like to tell MS that this is really bad. But how?
>Simply writung an email to MS? I'm sure I will not even get an
>answer. Or, if so, it will be some computer generated blabla.
>I have the feeling to face a giant helplessly. Even more if
>I see no regular and no MVP to consider any protest.
****
No attempt to suggest to Microsoft that this is a Really Bad Idea was honored. We were
simply told "This is how it is going to be, deal with it!"
A small number of people who are responsible made completely wrong decisions based not
upon technology but, as far as I can tell, politics within Microsoft. This is a deadly
position for a company to be in; historically, companies that made decisions like this
(and I worked for one) have been doomed.
****
>
>Looking at the discussed alternatives I see 3 general lines:
>- Some seem to arrange with the forums. They discuss about the
> NNTP bridge.
>- Some think about going to other existing (or not yet existing)
> groups somewhere in comp.* or <language>.comp.*
>- some hope that the affected groups will be hosted by other
> providers and hope the groups will not die.
>I think that everyone will take his own strategy to arrangre
>with the situation and think that therefore many excellelent
>"communities" will break.
***
Since the newsgroups live indpendent of the Microsoft servers, the issue is, for example,
whether our particiation in unsponsored-by-Microsoft newsgroups counts towards our MVP
status.
****
>
>What can we do against that? Is there any chance at all?
****
As far as I can tell, none whatsoever. Because we are not really "real" in the view of
the people making these decisions. We're some weird subgroup that doesn't really
understand How The Real World Works, which is whatever fantasy is currently in the head of
some decision-maker inside Microsoft.
joe
****
Hector Santos
>> I think that everyone will take his own strategy to arrangre
>> with the situation and think that therefore many excellelent
>> "communities" will break.
> ***
> Since the newsgroups live indpendent of the Microsoft servers, the issue is, for example,
> whether our particiation in unsponsored-by-Microsoft newsgroups counts towards our MVP
> status.
> ****
Is that what you are really concern about? :)
>> What can we do against that? Is there any chance at all?
> ****
> As far as I can tell, none whatsoever. Because we are not really "real" in the view of
> the people making these decisions. We're some weird subgroup that doesn't really
> understand How The Real World Works, which is whatever fantasy is currently in the head of
> some decision-maker inside Microsoft.
> joe
Well Joe, it looks like the plan is to remove the microsoft.* so
unless someone is going to take over the adminstration, they are gone
once microsoft plugs the msnews.microsoft.com server(s) pull.
See
http://groups.google.com/group/news.admin.hierarchies/browse_thread/thread/67439c68236e7e35#
http://groups.google.com/group/news.admin.hierarchies/browse_thread/thread/e9ec576003ce3fab#
--
HLS
Joseph M. Newcomer
On Mon, 10 May 2010 17:54:41 -0400, Hector Santos <sant...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Joseph M. Newcomer wrote:
>
>>> I think that everyone will take his own strategy to arrangre
>>> with the situation and think that therefore many excellelent
>>> "communities" will break.
>> ***
>> Since the newsgroups live indpendent of the Microsoft servers, the issue is, for example,
>> whether our particiation in unsponsored-by-Microsoft newsgroups counts towards our MVP
>> status.
>> ****
>
>
>Is that what you are really concern about? :)
****
I've been an MVP for 15 consecutive years, and it is kind of a cool thing. I'd hate to
lose out on that because my contributions weren't counted because they were "outside" the
Microsoft newsgroups. That would be really tacky.
****
>
>>> What can we do against that? Is there any chance at all?
>> ****
>> As far as I can tell, none whatsoever. Because we are not really "real" in the view of
>> the people making these decisions. We're some weird subgroup that doesn't really
>> understand How The Real World Works, which is whatever fantasy is currently in the head of
>> some decision-maker inside Microsoft.
>> joe
>
>
>Well Joe, it looks like the plan is to remove the microsoft.* so
>unless someone is going to take over the adminstration, they are gone
>once microsoft plugs the msnews.microsoft.com server(s) pull.
****
It seems that the loss of the msnews servers won't have any impact on the newsgroups,
which have a life of their own.
joe
****
>
>See
>
>http://groups.google.com/group/news.admin.hierarchies/browse_thread/thread/67439c68236e7e35#
>http://groups.google.com/group/news.admin.hierarchies/browse_thread/thread/e9ec576003ce3fab#
Mihai N.
> What can we do against that? Is there any chance at all?
The courage to change the things that I can;
And the wisdom to know the difference.
I guess most MVPs decided already this cannot be changed.
And most of us tried to convince MS again and again the this is not good.
But probably they think that the old grumpy ones will go away, the ones
who can adapt will adapt, new ones will come, and all will be well.
The schools that makes executies seem to teach that people are like cogs
that can easily be changed with others.
But maybe they are right. Who am I to tell?
--
Mihai Nita [Microsoft MVP, Visual C++]
http://www.mihai-nita.net
------------------------------------------
Replace _year_ with _ to get the real email
Hector Santos
> See below...
> On Mon, 10 May 2010 17:54:41 -0400, Hector Santos <sant...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Joseph M. Newcomer wrote:
>>
>>>> I think that everyone will take his own strategy to arrangre
>>>> with the situation and think that therefore many excellelent
>>>> "communities" will break.
>>> ***
>>> Since the newsgroups live indpendent of the Microsoft servers, the issue is, for example,
>>> whether our particiation in unsponsored-by-Microsoft newsgroups counts towards our MVP
>>> status.
>>> ****
>>
>> Is that what you are really concern about? :)
> ****
> I've been an MVP for 15 consecutive years, and it is kind of a cool thing. I'd hate to
> lose out on that because my contributions weren't counted because they were "outside" the
> Microsoft newsgroups. That would be really tacky.
> ****
I hear you, but why would expect any organization to develop user
support "Team" outside their venues?
They need to keep the groups as a recognized support avenue.
>> Well Joe, it looks like the plan is to remove the microsoft.* so
>> unless someone is going to take over the adminstration, they are gone
>> once microsoft plugs the msnews.microsoft.com server(s) pull.
> ****
> It seems that the loss of the msnews servers won't have any impact on the newsgroups,
> which have a life of their own.
> joe
Not if the microsoft.* newsgroups are removed as expected to occur.
Did you bother to read the links I provided? Here there are again:
Joseph M. Newcomer
management came in, and the new president said "I don't understand why we have all these
high-cost programmers. Mellon Bank is laying off programmers, and we can get them cheap."
So ultimately, he felt that you could replace PhDs who understood compiler theory, code
generation, etc. with COBOL programmers who did financial programming.
Clueless.
When most of those overpriced programmers ultimately left, the company was in serious
trouble.
joe
On Tue, 11 May 2010 00:48:04 -0700, "Mihai N." <nmihai_y...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> What can we do against that? Is there any chance at all?
> Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change;
> The courage to change the things that I can;
> And the wisdom to know the difference.
>
>I guess most MVPs decided already this cannot be changed.
>And most of us tried to convince MS again and again the this is not good.
>But probably they think that the old grumpy ones will go away, the ones
>who can adapt will adapt, new ones will come, and all will be well.
>The schools that makes executies seem to teach that people are like cogs
>that can easily be changed with others.
>But maybe they are right. Who am I to tell?
Bo Persson
> Joseph M. Newcomer wrote:
>
>> See below...
>> On Mon, 10 May 2010 17:54:41 -0400, Hector Santos
>> <sant...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Joseph M. Newcomer wrote:
>>>
>>>>> I think that everyone will take his own strategy to arrangre
>>>>> with the situation and think that therefore many excellelent
>>>>> "communities" will break.
>>>> ***
>>>> Since the newsgroups live indpendent of the Microsoft servers,
>>>> the issue is, for example, whether our particiation in
>>>> unsponsored-by-Microsoft newsgroups counts towards our MVP
>>>> status. ****
>>>
>>> Is that what you are really concern about? :)
>> ****
>> I've been an MVP for 15 consecutive years, and it is kind of a
>> cool thing. I'd hate to lose out on that because my contributions
>> weren't counted because they were "outside" the Microsoft
>> newsgroups. That would be really tacky. ****
>
>
> I hear you, but why would expect any organization to develop user
> support "Team" outside their venues?
>
> They need to keep the groups as a recognized support avenue.
>
Why?
Some of us, like Joe, have been doing this for a very long time. We
feel like sharing our experience with others is a good idea, just like
others helped us when we were newbies.
As we do this on our spare time, and at our convenience, it is just
tough for any organization that wants to count this as their support
team!
If they want to decide how, where and in what form they want the
support, they will have to pay for it. I have worked as a support
person earlier, and got a salary from the one that decided on the how
and the when.
When I do it for free, I decide. :-)
I, for one, will stay here as long as the news feed is active. If it
dies, it dies.
Bo Persson