Colon after titles

[Oscar Levin]

At our virtual pretext workshop, a participant was complaining about the colon between title and subtitle (this was in the context of a syllabus, but it applies broadly).

The CMS (17th edition, https://archive.org/details/dokumen.pub_chicago-manual-of-style-17thnbsped/page/n23/mode/2up) says, with regard to titles (1.17): "No colon or other punctuation is needed between title and subtitle if they are differentiated by type size or style."

I propose we remove the insertion of the colon between title and subtitle.  If we are in a context that does not differentiate by type size or style, then we could insert it (with css or latex template).

Any objections?

[Rob Beezer]

I presume this complaint (complaints? already? on Day 2?) is based on the HTML
presentation.

I think the colon is there because a title+subtitle all word-wraps as one
phrase, even though the subtitle uses less-prominent fonts. Perhaps as a
historical measure for preserving some screen real estate.

I'd be fine with the colon vanishing if existing styles (mobile too) put the
subtitle (if present, of course) onto its own line.

Others who were more involved in early decisions about HTML styling might have a
different opinion.

Rob

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[Oscar Levin]

In particular, on the title page (not the masthead) of the HTML, the colon is still there.

I'll submit a PR soon, but not so soon that others don't have time to object.

[Rob Beezer]

On 5/20/25 11:13, Oscar Levin wrote:
> In particular, on the title page (not the masthead) of the HTML, the colon is
> still there.

Well, yes, I'd be all in favor of removing it on the title page. Forgot about
that instance!

> I'll submit a PR soon, but not so soon that others don't have time to object.

Perfect, thanks for allowing a comment period. I'm not trying to poison the
well on this one.

There's about 10 templates for titles. Maybe we can get rid of one?

Rob

[David W. Farmer]

I think it will look wrong if the title and subtitle are on
the same line without a colon.

So, if you remove the colon, then you need a new line for
the subtitle.

What I wrote above is agnostic to the output format.

In HTML. I think a new line will often look worse.

So I suggest: Do Nothing Now.

And I have an extra reason beyond what I wrote above: this was the
first reaction of someone who had not previously used PreTeXt.
I'm all for fixing bugs when someone finds a new use case.
I am not okay with making a change to something that seemed to
be fine, based on comments from someone who should still have their
author hat on at all times.

There really is no compelling reason to do this now.

If we want to think about this later, I'd suggest a brief survey
of whether the change looks better or worse in a variety of
examples. I'll suggest an example where it will look worse:
The sample article:

https://pretextbook.org/examples/sample-article/html/derivatives.html

Something I think worth considering is forcing all of the title,
and all of the subtitle, each to be on one line (which may be the
some line. In CSS talk I mean nowrap on whitespace).

Regards,

David

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[Andrew Scholer]

If it does stay (or stays for some uses/themes), I suggest moving it to css.

If the use is to visually separate one piece of text from another as a downstream adjustment made in response to another design decision (to put two text items on the same line), the colon is not content, it is presentation. We can easily add the : as an :after pseudoelement in the CSS. Adding it in the CSS as opposed to baking it into HTML means that in a different design context (a presentation that does not smash title/subtitle on to one line), it can easily be omitted.

Andrew Scholer (he/him/his)

Computer Science Instructor

Chemeketa Community College

503.589.7649 

computerscience.chemeketa.edu/people/andrew-scholer/

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[Rob Beezer]

I do think the HTML title page needs to ditch the colon.

And I agree with David that the masthead has been fine for years (more than a
decade?) and should not change based on one complaint.

Rob

[Oscar Levin]

To be clear about what I'm suggesting, it is to remove the hard-coded colon from the title in HTML, and not let it back in for the titlepage.  I agree that the masthead looks fine.  But see https://pretextbook.org/examples/sample-article/html/frontmatter.html

One reason this has come up now is that we are building single page articles where you see the title on the "titlepage" (and with it embedded or using the boulder theme, no masthead at all).  So this is not a response to one complaint, but rather one person drawing attention to what has been overlooked by us for years.

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pretext-dev/MTAwMDA0OS5iZWV6ZXI.1747774234%40pnsh.

[David W. Farmer]

I am fine with all these suggestions.

> To view this discussion visithttps://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pretext-dev/CAOU9BaVHVb6BPb9Tr4v%2BzKZPGsfNf1RpcxOK632%2BOf5ekRXrzA%40mail.gmail.com
> .
>
>

[Rob Beezer]

All fixed up now.

https://github.com/PreTeXtBook/pretext/pull/2520

Thanks, Oscar, for working this one end-to-end.

Rob

On 5/20/25 13:57, David W. Farmer wrote:
>
> I am fine with all these suggestions.
>
> On Tue, 20 May 2025, Oscar Levin wrote:
>
>> To be clear about what I'm suggesting, it is to remove the hard-coded colon
>> from the title in HTML, and not let it back
>> in for the titlepage.  I agree that the masthead looks fine.  But
>> see https://pretextbook.org/examples/sample-article/html/frontmatter.html
>> One reason this has come up now is that we are building single page articles
>> where you see the title on the "titlepage"
>> (and with it embedded or using the boulder theme, no masthead at all).  So
>> this is not a response to one complaint, but
>> rather one person drawing attention to what has been overlooked by us for years.
>>