http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/0a581746c27b7a2f
[QUOTING FROM A 2009 DISCUSSION:]
[GRAMMAR NOTE -- All of Robert Harris' needless commas have been
removed by DVP in the post below.]
ROBERT HARRIS SAID:
>>> "David, why is it that in the Altgens photo, taken at the equivalent
of [Zapruder frame] 255, after at least two shots have been fired, we see
so many smiling faces, with no-one screaming or diving to the ground?" <<<
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Why would there necessarily have to be mass hysteria in Dealey Plaza at
that time (circa Z255)?
At that point in the James Altgens picture, it's only been 5.2 seconds
since Lee Harvey Oswald fired his first shot. Not exactly a long time,
right Robert? And two Secret Service agents are, indeed, reacting to the
sound of the gunfire by looking over their right shoulders.
But it's only been 1.7 seconds since anyone in the limousine was HIT by a
bullet, which is hardly enough time for people to start reacting to the
EFFECTS of the shots being fired (i.e., the wounding of people in Dealey
Plaza).
BTW, Bob, how can you determine if anyone is "screaming" or not via the
silent Altgens photograph? (Just curious.)
>>> "Why do we ONLY see such things after frame 285?" <<<
Because it was only after Z285 (and after Z313 actually) that the
spectators realized what was truly happening in the Plaza -- i.e., that
the President was being shot at.
Duh!
>>> "Why did none of the Secret Service agents pull out a gun until after
frame 285?" <<<
The Secret Service men reacted somewhat slowly, yes. No denying that
fact. But I don't really see how this inquiry bolsters your pet "Z285"
theory though.
>>> "Why did Clint Hill wait until after frame 285 to leap from the limo
and state that he did so in direct reaction to a gunshot?" <<<
I'm sure his leaping from the running board of the SS car was, indeed, "in
direct reaction to a gunshot". Obviously Hill's running toward the
President's car was "in direct reaction to a gunshot", for Pete sake. What
ELSE would have been the reason for his dramatic action that day?
But to state categorically that Clint Hill was "reacting" to a specific
gunshot fired at precisely Z285 (as you theorize) is just plain silly and
impossible to pin down with spot-on accuracy (as is the case with pretty
much everything you purport with regard to your totally-subjective
analysis of the Zapruder Film and the witness statements in relation to
your pet Z285 theory).
Time for another one of these -- Duh!
>>> "Why did Bill Greer wait until just after 285 to slow the limo and
spin around so fast that some critics thought his turns were humanly
impossible?" <<<
Once more we're treated to Bob Harris' unique subjective look at things.
In Harris' world, everything seems to revolve around his fictitious missed
shot at exactly Z285 of the Zapruder Film.
In Bob's one-sided "Z285 world", there isn't even the slightest
possibility that what we're seeing in the Z-Film just after frame #285
could be the limousine's occupants behaving in ways that might NOT
indicate that they were each hearing a gunshot at precisely Z285.
In Bob's "Z285" world, the movements of Nellie Connally and Jacqueline
Kennedy couldn't POSSIBLY be the movements and actions of two women who,
just 3.33 seconds prior to Z285, heard a gunshot being fired from Lee
Oswald's gun on the sixth floor of the Book Depository....with that single
gunshot resulting in the husbands of both of those women being wounded by
the same bullet....with the two women then reacting in a perfectly normal
fashion by LEANING IN toward their respective wounded spouses.
The above scenario is simply IMPOSSIBLE in the Z285 world of Robert
Harris.
Go figure.
>>> "Why did Greer say he felt the "concussion" of the second shot as he
was turned to the rear? And how do you explain why he didn't turn to the
rear until well after 223??" <<<
Once again, Mr. Harris is assigning ludicrous levels of ASSUMED AND
PRESUMED SPOT-ON ACCURACY to the statements of certain Dealey Plaza
witnesses.
We're only talking about a fraction more than THREE SECONDS IN REAL TIME
between the time of the actual second shot fired (by Oswald at Z224) and
Bob Harris' make-believe missed shot at Z285.
3.3 seconds, Bob!! That's all.
Anything you attribute to a missed shot at precisely Z285 can just as
easily be attributed to Oswald's real second shot at Z224. The difference
in real time is negligible.
But to Bob "Z285" Harris, 3.3 seconds is an amount of time that can be
dissected and sliced to absolute perfection in the minds and testimony of
EVERY SINGLE LIMO OCCUPANT.
Can you say "That's ridiculous"? I sure can when talking about this
silly "Z285" subject that Bob Harris loves so much.
>>> "Why did both Mrs. Kennedy and Mrs. Connally believe that their
husbands were hit by a shot that came after Gov Connally began to shout,
but before the explosive headwound?" <<<
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/9871273b0f35f000
>>> "And why did they both visibly react to that shot in perfect unison
with Zapruder's, Greer's and Kellerman's reactions?" <<<
Coincidence. And as I mentioned above, the coincidence is fully
explainable and understandable and reasonable in the case of Nellie's and
Jackie's in-unison head movements (which Harris thinks is "ducking" from
the sound of a gunshot, but it isn't).
>>> "Why did Kellerman duck and simultaneously shield his ear at exactly
the same instant that the others reacted?" <<<
Your "shield his ear" comment is pure speculation. And Kellerman's
movements can easily be explained this way:
He was reaching for the radio microphone in front of him.
>>> "Why did Brehm, J. Hill and Mary Moorman all remember multiple shots, beginning just as the limo passed in front of them?" <<<
Maybe because there WERE multiple shots being fired at just about that
time. Oswald fired two shots after Z160 (at Z224 and Z313), and all three
of those witnesses were pretty close to the limo during that Z224-Z313
timespan.
>>> "Why did Greer say that the last shots were nearly simultaneous and
Kellerman say they were like a "flurry"?" <<<
Kellerman's "flurry of shells/shots coming into the car" testimony is
very easily explained:
He heard the effects of the head-shot bullet fragments striking the
windshield and the chrome molding very near his seated position in the
limousine. That is almost certainly the best explanation for Roy
Kellerman's "flurry" testimony.
BTW, how did bullet fragments from Lee Oswald's gun (CE567 and CE569) get
into the front seat area of the limo if, as you suggest, Lee Oswald didn't
actually HIT any victims (or the car's interior) with any of his
Mannlicher-Carcano bullets on November 22nd?
Were CE567/569 planted in the limo by evil cover-up agents after the
assassination, Bob?
>>> "Why did most witnesses recall that the final shots were closely
bunched?" <<<
And there were several who didn't recall such a thing, as I discuss
here:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/a77dff325e995531
>>> "Why is it that not even one law enforcement professional recalled the
early shots being closer together than the final shots??" <<<
What difference does it really make?
Oh, I know to a person who loves the idea of a JFK conspiracy (like Robert
Harris, for example) something like this makes a world of difference.
But the answers to the important questions "HOW MANY SHOTS WERE FIRED?"
and "WHERE DID THE SHOTS COME FROM?" can be found by looking at the BEST
EVIDENCE in the case when it comes to trying to answer those two
inquiries.
And the following links (in tandem) contain that "Best Evidence", IMO:
http://reclaiming-history.googlegroups.com/web/074a.+THREE+BULLET+SHE...
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/images/shots3.jpg
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/images/shots4.jpg
>>> "Why did Gov Connally not hear the shot that hit him?" <<<
Simple: Because that shot ACTUALLY HIT HIM. And he was no doubt physically
struck by that bullet (CE399, of course) before the sound of that shot
reached his ears. I think you'll find that it is not uncommon for a victim
of a gunshot wound to not physically hear the shot that wounded him.
Connally Addendum --
Keep in mind that the totality of John Connally's testimony perfectly
buttresses the single-assassin scenario and the Single-Bullet Theory
particularly (whether JBC himself believed in the SBT or not).
John Connally, in 1967, even went so far as to admit that the SBT was
certainly "possible" in his mind:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/741a872f58796bfe
>>> "Why did no-one else in the limo hear that shot either?" <<<
You're so entrenched in your belief of your made-up "Z285" missed shot
that you will never ever be able to see that your theory rests solely on
subjective and unprovable analysis of the Zapruder Film.
Of course people in the limo heard the shot that hit Governor
Connally....that was Shot #2 from Lee Oswald's gun at Z224. But you, Bob
Harris, have convinced yourself that those limo occupants were talking
about some OTHER shot (your make-believe Z285 shot, I guess).
But, yes, of course the limo witnesses heard the shot that hit John
Connally (except Mr. Connally himself, of course, as mentioned earlier).
>>> "Why did his [John Connally's] wife only recall hearing ONE noise
prior to him beginning to shout?" <<<
If you fine-tune your analysis any further, you'll probably be able to
convince yourself that Nellie Connally blinked her eyes exactly 17 times
after hearing the first shot but before she heard her husband shout "No,
no, no".
>>> "Why did no-one in the limo recall more than one early shot and why
did they exhibit no startle reactions prior to frame 285?" <<<
If they had been standing right next to Oswald in the Sniper's Nest,
perhaps they would have exhibited some "startle" reactions.
As a comparison here, do you think that every limo occupant should be
exhibiting "startle" reactions whenever one of the nearby motorcycles
backfired (which, by all accounts, is something that happened
frequently during Presidential motorcades)?
Food for thought.
>>> "And why DID they exhibit simultaneous startle reacts beginning a
third of a second AFTER 285?" <<<
They didn't. That's only your singularly subjective look at things. I
doubt that one other person on the planet would evaluate the movements
of the limo occupants the exact same way that Robert "Z285" Harris has
done.
>>> "Why did Dr. Luis Alvarez conclude that Zapruder and Greer were
startled by a loud noise at precisely frame 285?" <<<
I'll take this opportunity to quote the author of the JFK Bible:
"The CBS experiment [in 1967] proves that a gunshot will
normally cause a cameraman’s neuromuscular system to go into, as Dr.
[Luis] Alvarez put it, “a temporary spasm.”
"So the three gunshots that day [November 22, 1963] would have
almost assuredly caused a startled reaction in Zapruder and, hence, a blur
on his film. And we find blurs around Z160 (the first shot), around
Z220–228 (which clearly coincides with Kennedy’s and Connally’s
reactions to the second shot), and Z313 (the third shot).
"The demonstrable defect in blur or jiggle analysis is that
although a gunshot will produce a blur (and hence, the absence of a
blur is very strong circumstantial evidence of the absence of a
gunshot), a blur obviously does not necessarily have to be caused by a
gunshot.
"Any number of other things--a cough, an unintentional nudge
(Zapruder’s secretary was right next to him), a gust of wind, movement
of Zapruder’s feet, even his efforts to keep an object in frame--could
also cause a blur.
"Zapruder himself testified before the Warren Commission that
his images weren’t very clear for the simple reason that his camera
movements were magnified by the telephoto lens setting he was using.
“Did you ever have binoculars,” he asked, “and every time you move,
everything is exaggerated in the move? That’s one reason why they’re
kind of blurred, the movement” (7 H 572).
"Further, the emotional reaction of what one sees through the
viewfinder could also easily cause a startled reaction. Indeed,
Zapruder testified how he reacted to the sight of the impact of the
bullet on Kennedy’s head (“I started...yelling, ‘They’ve killed
him.’”) (7 H 571–572).
"This would explain the fact that Alvarez, Hartmann, and Scott
all detected blurs in the Zapruder film not only around the time of
the head shot at Z313, but also around Z330–334, a second later, when
he was fully absorbing the horrific sight of the president’s head
having exploded in front of him.
"In fact, though the overwhelming weight of the evidence shows
that only three shots were fired in Dealey Plaza, the two experts from
the HSCA photographic panel saw six blurs on the Zapruder film, the
weakest of which was around Z290–292, a time when there is no evidence
at all that a shot was fired (6 HSCA 30).
"Because of all of the above variables and imponderables, and
because there is no known way to distinguish a blur or jiggle caused
by an involuntary reaction from one caused by, for instance, a
voluntary pan/search movement, blur or jiggle analysis can never be
conclusive on the number or timing of the shots fired in Dealey Plaza
and should not be given great weight." -- Vincent Bugliosi; Pages
335-336 of "Reclaiming History: The Assassination Of President John F.
Kennedy" (Endnotes)(c.2007)
http://www.ReclaimingHistory.blogspot.com
>>> "Why did DMN reporter Mary Woodward recall two closely bunched shots
as the limo approached her, that she described as "ear shattering", David?
How could some shots be ear shattering while others were not heard at
all??" <<<
Possibly due to Oswald's first (missed) shot at Z160 being something
akin to a misfire (but not a complete misfire, since the bullet
certainly was fired from the gun, as indicated by the number of shells
[3] found on the floor in the Sniper's Nest).
That first shot could have had a different (and quieter) sound to it.
In fact, many/most witnesses reported that the first sound they heard
sounded more like a firecracker than it did a rifle shot.
>>> "And why did so many other witnesses state that the first noise they
heard sounded much different than the ones at the end?" <<<
See my last comment.
In the final analysis, we're left with these things:
1.) THREE shells being found in the TSBD Sniper's Nest.
2.) Lee Oswald's rifle (with his prints on it) being found on the same
floor as the shells.
3.) Bullet fragments CE567 and CE569 (fired conclusively from Oswald's
rifle) being found in the limousine.
4.) Bullet CE399 being determined by both the Warren Commission and
the HSCA to be the bullet that injured both Kennedy and Connally in
Dealey Plaza (like it or not).
5.) And this previously-linked witness statistic:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/images/shots3.jpg
When looking at the above list (plus many other items of physical and
circumstantial evidence that I didn't mention), you don't have to be
an A+ student in mathematics to figure out the most-reasonable and
most-likely answer to the basic questions concerning the assassination
of John F. Kennedy.
But, for some odd reason, the obvious answers to those questions keep
eluding conspiracy theorists the world over.
~shrug~
David Von Pein
December 1, 2009
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/0a581746c27b7a2f