A letter to Sis - page 1
Tony Cooper
Sorry for not writing more frequently, but I've been spending too much
time on the computer lately. I've been reading a news group called
"alt.usage.english" which ostensibly has to do with word meanings and
word usage. I say "ostensibly" because that is the chartered purpose
of the group, but the real purpose seems to be to discuss food groups,
food definitions, and forms of words meaning food items. If an army
travels on its' stomach, then an army of pedants travels whilst
discussing the past, present and future contents of its' stomach.
There must be over 400 posts to date just on the definition of a
grilled cheese sandwich. This mighty group has focused their
intellect on the humble sandwich and discussed ad infinitum and ad
nauseam the requirements of the shape of the bread, the cut of the
bread, the name of the bread, the quantity of pieces of bread, the
origin of the bread, and the manner of eating the bread. A side
issue - but one passionately debated - was the means of grilling of
the bread and the implements used. They have not yet gone into the
grilled cheese sandwich with a slice of pickle. I anticipate a lively
discussion on pickles.
Sometimes, the group discusses definitions of words. For example,
they might discuss the word "pedant". Now, you and I might just think
the word means someone that's a picky smartass about spelling mistakes
and using "further" when you mean "farther". These guys don't do it
this way, though. They would give you something like this:
Main Entry: Ped-ant
Pronunciation: 'pe-d&nt
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French, from Italian pedante
Date: 1588
1 obsolete : a male schoolteacher
2a : one who makes a show of knowledge
2b : one who is unimaginative or who unduly emphasizes minutiae in the
presentation or use of knowledge
2c : a formalist or precisionist in teaching
I took this from the Merriam-Webster dictionary, but they would
probably use the Oxford English Dictionary definition. In this group,
referencing the O.E.D. is like flashing your Rolex....it shows you
have a serious enough interest to spend the big bucks.
They don't seem to get into the oddity of words, though. Like a
pedant is something you call someone else, but not something you want
to be called. If you correct my usage, you're a pedant. If I correct
your usage, I'm widening your knowledge base.
The second most widely discussed topic (in the time that I've been
reading the group) in this forum for word usage is geographical
anomalies. I only skimmed the threads, but it seems that in certain
parts of some cities that 12th Avenue can cross 12th Street. This is
considered to be of great interest to these people! They have each
provided detailed analysis of their neighborhood's street grids, house
numbering systems, and nearby roadway patterns. I fully expect the
next great thread to be what street to take to get to a favorite
sandwich shop.
A smaller, but interesting, thread has been on something called Rot13.
This, according to the group, is a sophisticated encrypting system
using one letter of the alphabet to represent another letter of the
alphabet. They evidently have computer programs to both encode and
decode the Rot13 system. It's a young group, Sis, and they must have
grown up long after you could get a Capt. Midnight Code-O-Graph ring
for three Ovaltine labels and 25 cents. We waited by the mailbox for
weeks for ours, and they buy theirs on e-Bay.
It's a mannerly group of people that post in alt.usage.english. The
only thing that seems to upset them is something called "PGP". I
don't understand it all that well, but it seems to be a system that
prevents other people from stealing your news group identity. Their
objection seems to be that adding the PGP information increases the
post by 12 to 14 lines. There have been about 150 posts objecting to
this. Since no one in the group seems to be able to snip to the
relevant lines, this means that they have posted about 4,500 lines of
objection to 12 extra lines in a couple of posts. It must be a
principle thing.
There are some conventions that must be observed in this group. As far
as I can tell, it is déclassé to say Americans or Europeans. You
must say "leftpondians" or "rightpondians". This is a group that will
go to the wall on a discussion of pronominal declensions, but insists
on calling the Atlantic Ocean a pond. I've not yet figured out how to
differentiate South America from Africa.
They've a contest running with a number of questions posted daily. By
the time I read the questions, the answers have already appeared.
I'll give you a question, though: Where do you find a pound that
empties and fills but never should contain a dog or a cat?
Affectionately,
--
Tony Cooper aka: Tony_Co...@Yahoo.com
Provider of Jots & Tittles
R H Draney
<tony_co...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>There are some conventions that must be observed in this group. As far
>as I can tell, it is déclassé to say Americans or Europeans. You
>must say "leftpondians" or "rightpondians". This is a group that will
>go to the wall on a discussion of pronominal declensions, but insists
>on calling the Atlantic Ocean a pond. I've not yet figured out how to
>differentiate South America from Africa.
South America's got better coffee; Africa's got worse epidemics....
(Just helping out wherever I can)....r
--
"Supposedly, after a city was taken, you'd not only see lots
of rape victims, but also lots of people with bleeding ears."
- Kai Henningsen elicits a truly disturbing mental image
Charles Riggs
<tony_co...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Dear Sis:
>
>Sorry for not writing more frequently...
That's OK, bro, but since I am your sister, in the future please don't
follow my name with a colon as if I were a business.
> They have not yet gone into the
>grilled cheese sandwich with a slice of pickle.
I think this was mentioned in passing in at least one of the sandwich
posts, as were tomatoes in grilled cheese sandwiches. For what it's
worth, here's my standard GCS:
Melt some butter in a broiling pan and immerse both sides of two
pieces of whole wheat bread in it. Sprinkle a little Worcestershire
sauce on the inner surfaces of the two slices along with salt.
Place a thick slice of Swiss cheese (cheddar is an alternate) on top
of the lower slice and then cover with a row of longitudinally-sliced
pickles, followed by the top slice of bread.
Broil under heat (grill in GB) for a few minutes on each side until
the cheese is well-melted and the bread is lightly browned.
Charles Riggs
Maria Conlon
>Dear Sis:
[...]
Great, Tony! (I wish I'd come up with the idea.) But I have a quibble
with one little part, and would like you to inform your sister of this
correction lest she get the wrong impression.
>.....It's a young group, Sis, and they must have
>grown up long after you could get a Capt. Midnight Code-O-Graph ring
>for three Ovaltine labels and 25 cents. We waited by the mailbox for
>weeks for ours, and they buy theirs on e-Bay.
The part I object to is "young group." While this may be blatant
flattery, and while such may be appreciated, I would think that most of
us are not especially "young." It depends on your definition of "young,"
sure, but I would think the average age here (among regular posters[1])
is 45+, with many of us in the "+" category.
Not that we're "old," you understand. We're just more experienced than
the clueless kiddies that populate other groups.
By the way, you forgot sheep, or, more likely, don't know about them
yet. You'll hear more about this subject when the contest comes to a
close, though that's not the only time you might encounter the subject.
Some of our British and Irish posters seem to have a thing about sheep,
while Leftpondians are less likely to have...uh...gotten involved.
[1] The term "regular posters" does not, IMO, include the
crossposter-from-Hell and his followers, nor does it include other
cross-posters who never actually read aue, nor does it include the
random dropper-by.
Thanks for the enjoyable post.
Maria (Tootsie)
Matti Lamprhey
> [...]
> They've a contest running with a number of questions posted daily. By
> the time I read the questions, the answers have already appeared.
> I'll give you a question, though: Where do you find a pound that
> empties and fills but never should contain a dog or a cat?
On a hydraulic navigation facility.
(Nice post, Tony.)
Matti
Mike Barnes
>Dear Sis:
>
>Sorry for not writing more frequently, but I've been spending too much
>time on the computer lately. I've been reading a news group called
>"alt.usage.english" which ostensibly has to do with word meanings and
>word usage. I say "ostensibly" because that is the chartered purpose
>of the group, but the real purpose seems to be to discuss food groups,
>food definitions, and forms of words meaning food items. If an army
>travels on its' stomach, then an army of pedants travels whilst
>discussing the past, present and future contents of its' stomach.
:-)
Too much time, but not enough, it seems... "its'", indeed! Harrumph!
I hope you stick around to entertain and inform us. Your sister can
manage without, I'm sure.
--
Mike Barnes
Padraig Breathnach
>... If an army
>travels on its' stomach, then an army of pedants travels whilst
>discussing the past, present and future contents of its' stomach...
>
You want us to discuss English usage? Shall we start with possessive
pronouns? Nah, let's do sheep. I wouldn't like you to consider me a
pedant.
PB
Rowan Dingle
[...]
>By the way, you forgot sheep, or, more likely, don't know about them
>yet. You'll hear more about this subject when the contest comes to a
>close, though that's not the only time you might encounter the subject.
>Some of our British and Irish posters seem to have a thing about sheep,
>while Leftpondians are less likely to have...uh...gotten involved.
Sheep, spelling and political correctness:
===from portal.telegraph.co.uk===
SCHOOLS in Wales have been criticised for having too many pictures of
daffodils, sheep, coal mines and aproned ladies in tall black hats on
their walls.
Inspectors from Estyn, the Welsh equivalent of Ofsted [the English
schools inspectorate], said that schoolchildren needed to be presented
with more modern images of the principality such as economic
regeneration and multiculturalism, such as the presence of pupils of
Bengali, Somali and Yemeni origin.
===5th August===
Clumsy, yes, but where's the spelling mistake?
Whilst looking for Estyn's home site (in vain), I came across this proud
boast from a company that 'provides training, consultancy & inspection
services internationally for educationalists at all levels including
Governors, Senior Management Teams, teachers and inspectors':
===from www.wessexeducation.com/inspect.htm===
Wessex [Associates Ltd] also carries out inspections of primary schools
in Wales for ESTYN (Formally OHMCI). To date we have carried out over
100 of these inspections and continue to be active in this area.
===
(Hint: ESTYN used to be known as OHMCI.)
--
Rowan Dingle
Tony Cooper
]
> You want us to discuss English usage? Shall we start with possessive
> pronouns? Nah, let's do sheep. I wouldn't like you to consider me a
> pedant.
>
Prior to taking up AUE, I spent two years contributing to
soc.culture.irish. (I included a bit of Irish in my greeting above).
That background has contributed greatly to my knowledge of sheep and
the....erm....entertainment value a sheep has to a culchie. I've seen
and written so many sheep jokes and references that I'll baa out of
future posts on this topic.
In soc.culture.irish, food threads are as common as they are here.
They can go twenty posts on a doner kebab any time. Curry, and the
next day effects of curry, are a popular topic and the discussion gets
a bit more detailed than one would expect here. Also popular is the
ever-present argument about the best crisps (Tayto ROI or Tayto UK)
and - as you would expect - beer and stout posts.
We even have a Breathnach there, and he is a mighty poster indeed. A
writer noted for his original and humorous posts, but a man sadly
defeated by the inevitable defeats of the boys from Roscommon.
As to my possessive pronouns...I take it that I was incorrect in using
"its'". I was under the impression that if what follows "its" belongs
to "it", then the apostrophe is in order. What *is* the rule?
Rainer Thonnes
"Maria Conlon" <mcon...@sprynet.com> writes:
>
>The part I object to is "young group." While this may be blatant
>flattery, and while such may be appreciated, I would think that most of
>us are not especially "young." It depends on your definition of "young,"
>sure, but I would think the average age here (among regular posters[1])
>is 45+, with many of us in the "+" category.
Hold on, toots, he said the *group* was young, not its members.
Didn't someone fairly recently send us a birthday card? "Happy
birthday, AUE!", or words to that effect. I forget when it was
supposed to have been born, though.
Anyway, who says 46 is old?
Tony Cooper
> Not that we're "old," you understand. We're just more experienced
than
> the clueless kiddies that populate other groups.
If you didn't listen to the radio serials, send off for the decoder
rings, and get dressed on Saturday morning to "Let's Pretend".....then
you are ":young".
>
> By the way, you forgot sheep, or, more likely, don't know about them
> yet.
See my reply to Breathnach. They say the tricky part is getting their
hind legs in the wellies.
Tony Cooper
> > I'll give you a question, though: Where do you find a pound that
> > empties and fills but never should contain a dog or a cat?
>
> On a hydraulic navigation facility.
If I had a prize, I'd award it. The area in a lock is called a pound.
If you are ever in Brownsville (Brooklyn, not Texas) and need
directions to the Van Wyck without crossing an even numbered street, I
know people that know.
Robert Lipton
People 45 and younger.
Bob
Richard Fontana
> As to my possessive pronouns...I take it that I was incorrect in using
> "its'". I was under the impression that if what follows "its" belongs
> to "it", then the apostrophe is in order. What *is* the rule?
Geez, Tony! Geez!
There is no apostrophe. An apostrophe is used in the contraction "it's" =
"it is/it has" only. For the it-possessive, use, "its", no apostrophe.
Geez, Tony! Geez!
Geez!
Robert E. Lewis
Tony Cooper <tony_co...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:9kvmfi$lc8$1...@slb7.atl.mindspring.net...
> Dear Sis:
>
> Sorry for not writing more frequently, but I've been spending too much
> time on the computer lately. I've been reading a news group called
> "alt.usage.english" which ostensibly has to do with word meanings and
> word usage. I say "ostensibly" because that is the chartered purpose
> of the group, but the real purpose seems to be to discuss food groups,
> food definitions, and forms of words meaning food items. If an army
> travels on its' stomach, then an army of pedants travels whilst
> discussing the past, present and future contents of its' stomach.
>
> There must be over 400 posts to date just on the definition of a
> grilled cheese sandwich. This mighty group has focused their
> intellect on the humble sandwich and discussed ad infinitum and ad
> nauseam the requirements of the shape of the bread, the cut of the
> bread, the name of the bread, the quantity of pieces of bread, the
> origin of the bread, and the manner of eating the bread. A side
> issue - but one passionately debated - was the means of grilling of
> the bread and the implements used. They have not yet gone into the
> grilled cheese sandwich with a slice of pickle. I anticipate a lively
> discussion on pickles.
How did it come to pass that when we say "pickle," we by default mean a
pickled gherkin, and not pickled beets, pickled watermelon, pickled pigs'
feet, etc.?
It's similar to "french fries," meaning french-fried potatoes (at least
Leftpondian), and not french-fried onions, french-fried chicken, and so on.
--
Robert
Aaron J Dinkin
> How did it come to pass that when we say "pickle," we by default mean a
> pickled gherkin, and not pickled beets, pickled watermelon, pickled pigs'
> feet, etc.?
We do? I thought we meant a pickled pickling cucumber. A gherkin is less
than one sixth the size of a typical pickling cuke, isn't it?
I call a pickled gherkin a gherkin.
-Aaron J. Dinkin
Dr. Whom
Tony Cooper
I looked up, and there is clearly no apostrophe after "its". I've
been doing it wrong all these years. I guess I made the jump from
"Charles' stomach" to "its'".
But, hey, I'm just a simple provider of jots and tittles.
Tony Cooper
> How did it come to pass that when we say "pickle," we by default
mean a
> pickled gherkin,
Dunno about you, but a pickle to me is a pickled cucumber. A gherkin
is an immature cucumber and only one type of pickle.
A slight aside....one of the most annoying radio commercials is that
guy from "Star..." whatever it is TV show that does the Priceline ads
where he says something like "I knew it. I knew this would be big."
And back to topic....I knew it. I knew pickles would be big.
Richard Fontana
"Gherkins", pickled, so-called, are certainly marketed as a subcategory of
pickles (= pickled cucumbers).
Mike Lyle
<Pine.GSO.4.21.01081...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu>, Richard Fontana
wrote:
>
>On 10 Aug 2001, Aaron J Dinkin wrote:
>
>> Robert E. Lewis <rle...@brazosport.cc.tx.us> wrote:
>>
>> > How did it come to pass that when we say "pickle," we by default mean a
>> > pickled gherkin, and not pickled beets, pickled watermelon, pickled pigs'
>> > feet, etc.?
>>
>> We do? I thought we meant a pickled pickling cucumber. A gherkin is less
>> than one sixth the size of a typical pickling cuke, isn't it?
>>
>> I call a pickled gherkin a gherkin.
>
Mike.
Aaron J Dinkin
Yes. But if I wanted to say a word that meant, by default 'pickled
gherkin', I would say "gherkin", not "pickle". "Pickle" does mean 'picked
cucumber' by default.
And "gherkin", to me, means 'pickled gherkin' by default. I don't think
I've ever met the non-pickled kind.
Padraig Breathnach
>Scríobh Padraig Breathnach
>]
>> You want us to discuss English usage? Shall we start with possessive
>> pronouns? Nah, let's do sheep. I wouldn't like you to consider me a
>> pedant.
>>
>
>Prior to taking up AUE, I spent two years contributing to
>soc.culture.irish. (I included a bit of Irish in my greeting above).
>
I give you credit for stamina. Six weeks was long enough for me in
SCI.
>That background has contributed greatly to my knowledge of sheep and
>the....erm....entertainment value a sheep has to a culchie. I've seen
>and written so many sheep jokes and references that I'll baa out of
>future posts on this topic.
>
Don't. You can even recycle stuff from SCI, because most people here
don't participate there. Mind you, I have spotted a post recycled from
SCI in this group (Rush, are you reading this?).
>In soc.culture.irish, food threads are as common as they are here.
>They can go twenty posts on a doner kebab any time. Curry, and the
>next day effects of curry, are a popular topic and the discussion gets
>a bit more detailed than one would expect here.
>
The best of Irish cuisine. The recipes here are better.
>Also popular is the
>ever-present argument about the best crisps (Tayto ROI or Tayto UK)
>and - as you would expect - beer and stout posts.
>
For our leftpondian friends: chips.
>We even have a Breathnach there, and he is a mighty poster indeed. A
>writer noted for his original and humorous posts, but a man sadly
>defeated by the inevitable defeats of the boys from Roscommon.
>
>As to my possessive pronouns...I take it that I was incorrect in using
>"its'". I was under the impression that if what follows "its" belongs
>to "it", then the apostrophe is in order. What *is* the rule?
>
"It's" as a contraction for "It is" is correct.
"Its" denoting possession never has an apostrophe. Think of "his"; you
would (I suppose) never think of using an apostrophe with it.
Now, about the sheep ...
PB
Padraig Breathnach
>How did it come to pass that when we say "pickle," we by default mean a
>pickled gherkin, and not pickled beets, pickled watermelon, pickled pigs'
>feet, etc.?
>
Who's this "we"? For me, pickle is an assortment of chopped or diced
vegetables in a brown vinegar sauce.
PB
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Hold on, toots, he said the *group* was young, not its members.
> Didn't someone fairly recently send us a birthday card? "Happy
> birthday, AUE!", or words to that effect. I forget when it was
> supposed to have been born, though.
May 10, 1991. Making it nearly a bit over four years older than
Tony's prior haunt, soc.culture.irish (vote result posted May 13,
1995).
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |The mystery of government is not how
1501 Page Mill Road, Building 1U |Washington works, but how to make it
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |stop.
| P.J. O'Rourke
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
Richard Fontana
That would be a kind of US "relish", possibly a kind of piccalilli.
I think.
felix
> How did it come to pass that when we say "pickle," we by default mean a
> pickled gherkin, and not pickled beets, pickled watermelon, pickled pigs'
> feet, etc.?
>
> It's similar to "french fries," meaning french-fried potatoes (at least
> Leftpondian), and not french-fried onions, french-fried chicken, and so on.
Do the french fry onions, chickens and so on? I'm off to France next
week - I'll ask around, and should I return in one piece, will let you
know.
felix
Mike Barnes
>"its'". I was under the impression that if what follows "its" belongs
>to "it", then the apostrophe is in order. What *is* the rule?
The answer is to be found in another newsgroup (and yes, it really does
exist), called "alt.possessive.its.has.no.apostrophe". You don't even
need to subscribe. :-)
--
Mike Barnes
Padraig Breathnach
My idea of US-type relish is of something containing a lot of tomato
and chilli. Is that too restrictive a view?
The pickle I have in mind is often used to add zing to unexciting
food. I use it a lot with uninteresting cheeses, and sometimes with
ham. In sandwiches.
PB
Richard Fontana
> Richard Fontana <rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> wrote:
>
> >On Fri, 10 Aug 2001, Padraig Breathnach wrote:
> >
> >> "Robert E. Lewis" <rle...@brazosport.cc.tx.us> wrote:
> >>
> >> >How did it come to pass that when we say "pickle," we by default mean a
> >> >pickled gherkin, and not pickled beets, pickled watermelon, pickled pigs'
> >> >feet, etc.?
> >> >
> >> Who's this "we"? For me, pickle is an assortment of chopped or diced
> >> vegetables in a brown vinegar sauce.
> >
> >That would be a kind of US "relish", possibly a kind of piccalilli.
> >I think.
>
> My idea of US-type relish is of something containing a lot of tomato
> and chilli. Is that too restrictive a view?
I think it's an incorrect view. The most conventional sort of unqualified
US "relish" is sweet pickle relish; nothing particularly tomatoey or chili
in it. It's particularly used as a traditional condiment for hotdogs and
hamburgers. There are, however, other, more special purpose, kinds of
relishes; corn relish comes to mind.
Harvey V
<tony_co...@yahoo.com> said:
[snip of a lovely post...]
> I'll give you a question, though: Where do you find a
> pound that empties and fills but never should contain a dog or a
> cat?
It's certainly used in fishing.
(And in case that's not the answer you were thinking of, I'm *still*
correct! Ha!)
Cheers,
Harvey
>
> Affectionately,
Harvey V
Joe Fineman
people in a pickle (a distinct tho not disjoint set).
--
--- Joe Fineman j...@TheWorld.com
||: Anger is ice for the toothache of shame. :||
Joe Fineman
> US "relish" is sweet pickle relish; nothing particularly tomatoey or
> chili in it.
How could you pass up the opportunity to write "chiliey"?
--
--- Joe Fineman j...@TheWorld.com
||: The prince of virtues is courage, and the crown of courage :||
||: is contempt for public opinion. :||
Padraig Breathnach
I did a domestic google -- looked at the label of the jar of "American
style" relish in the larder. It has a long list of ingredients, headed
by tomato (in Ireland, ingredients must be listed in order of
quantity). Oddly, no mention of chilli, although the stuff tastes
strongly of it. It's possibly subsumed under the more general
"flavourings". It claims to contain gherkins as well, but they are not
easily detected. It's not sweet, but is a little on the hot side.
Some varieties of the pickles I mentioned earlier are indeed sweet.
PB
Tony Cooper
> Who's this "we"? For me, pickle is an assortment of chopped or diced
> vegetables in a brown vinegar sauce.
That's Branson Pickle, isn't it? We've some in the pantry. It's
served in the UK with a ploughman's lunch. There are some shops here
where we can buy specialty foods like this. Just a few weeks ago my
wife picked up some Bird's trifle mix for a treat. It always tastes
better over there.
Don Aitken
<tony_co...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Matti wrote:
>
>> > I'll give you a question, though: Where do you find a pound that
>> > empties and fills but never should contain a dog or a cat?
>>
>> On a hydraulic navigation facility.
>
>If I had a prize, I'd award it. The area in a lock is called a pound.
Actually, a pound is the stretch of water *between* two locks.
>If you are ever in Brownsville (Brooklyn, not Texas) and need
>directions to the Van Wyck without crossing an even numbered street, I
>know people that know.
--
Don Aitken
Tony Cooper
> > My idea of US-type relish is of something containing a lot of
tomato
> > and chilli. Is that too restrictive a view?
>
> I think it's an incorrect view. The most conventional sort of
unqualified
> US "relish" is sweet pickle relish; nothing particularly tomatoey or
chili
> in it. It's particularly used as a traditional condiment for
hotdogs and
> hamburgers. There are, however, other, more special purpose, kinds
of
> relishes; corn relish comes to mind.
>
I think he's thinking of Chili Sauce. We use it instead of ketchup.
It's thicker, contains bits of veggies, and a tomato sauce.
Robert E. Lewis
Padraig Breathnach <padr...@iol.ie> wrote in message
news:vd98nt0g940flu1tk...@4ax.com...
> Richard Fontana <rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> wrote:
>
> >On Fri, 10 Aug 2001, Padraig Breathnach wrote:
> >
> >> "Robert E. Lewis" <rle...@brazosport.cc.tx.us> wrote:
> >>
> >> >How did it come to pass that when we say "pickle," we by default mean
a
> >> >pickled gherkin, and not pickled beets, pickled watermelon, pickled
pigs'
> >> >feet, etc.?
> >> >
> >> Who's this "we"? For me, pickle is an assortment of chopped or diced
> >> vegetables in a brown vinegar sauce.
> >
> >That would be a kind of US "relish", possibly a kind of piccalilli.
> >I think.
>
> My idea of US-type relish is of something containing a lot of tomato
> and chilli. Is that too restrictive a view?
I wouldn;t call that relish; I'd call it salsa.
Padraig Breathnach
>Padraig wrote:
>
>> Who's this "we"? For me, pickle is an assortment of chopped or diced
>> vegetables in a brown vinegar sauce.
>
>That's Branson Pickle, isn't it? We've some in the pantry. It's
>served in the UK with a ploughman's lunch.
>
Branston is one popular type. There are also Sweet Pickle and Military
Pickle.
>There are some shops here
>where we can buy specialty foods like this.
>
There are lots of shops here where we can buy them.
>Just a few weeks ago my
>wife picked up some Bird's trifle mix for a treat. It always tastes
>better over there.
>
I don't think so.
PB
Robert E. Lewis
felix <fel...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:430d1c32.01081...@posting.google.com...
Wouldn't you have preferred I asked about french-kissing? (The research
would be so much more fun, and you could solicit kisses for scientific
reasons from Parisian waiters.)
My semi-ancient Better Homes & Gardens "New" cookbook (1953, 1962) features
french-fried potatoes, chicken, onion-rings and shrimp. All are deep-fried;
surely the French deep-fry something, but what they call it, and how
deep-frying came also to be called french-frying, if it's not common there,
would be of interest to me.
Interesting coincidence: I have the television on, Diana Krall (sp?) singing
jazz some studio show. I wasn't particularly paying attention, but as I
walked past on my way to fetch a cookbook, she was singing something
food-related, and said what sounded like, "French-me-fried,"
--
Robert
Richard Fontana
> Richard Fontana wrote:
>
> > > My idea of US-type relish is of something containing a lot of
> tomato
> > > and chilli. Is that too restrictive a view?
> >
> > I think it's an incorrect view. The most conventional sort of
> unqualified
> > US "relish" is sweet pickle relish; nothing particularly tomatoey or
> chili
> > in it. It's particularly used as a traditional condiment for
> hotdogs and
> > hamburgers. There are, however, other, more special purpose, kinds
> of
> > relishes; corn relish comes to mind.
> >
> I think he's thinking of Chili Sauce. We use it instead of ketchup.
> It's thicker, contains bits of veggies, and a tomato sauce.
I think Heinz has a Chili Sauce that is packaged very much like their
traditional ketchup (not the green stuff) is. I've tried it; it seemed
like a slightly spicier version of ketchup. No bits of veggies in that
one, though. A bit closer to traditional 1970s-style barbecue sauce.
Tony Cooper
> Actually, a pound is the stretch of water *between* two locks.
How do you stretch water?
Skitt
"Tony Cooper" <tony_co...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:9l20gp$qsd$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net...
> Don Aitken wrote:
>
> > Actually, a pound is the stretch of water *between* two locks.
>
> How do you stretch water?
Aha, ready to learn? Go to:
http://wwwlwhs.lkwash.wednet.edu/edu/science/IES/WaterWeb/P1-Cohesion-bf.vs/
bf4692-coh.HTML
for the finer points in the art of water stretching.
--
Skitt (in SF Bay Area) http://www.geocities.com/opus731/
I speak English well -- I learn it from a book!
-- Manuel of "Fawlty Towers" (he's from Barcelona).
Skitt
I, "Skitt" <sk...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:9l21ln$7dnor$1...@ID-61580.news.dfncis.de...
>
> "Tony Cooper" <tony_co...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:9l20gp$qsd$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net...
> >
>
> Aha, ready to learn? Go to:
>
http://wwwlwhs.lkwash.wednet.edu/edu/science/IES/WaterWeb/P1-Cohesion-bf.vs/
> bf4692-coh.HTML
> for the finer points in the art of water stretching.
The poor slobs doing the experiment had no concept of what a centimeter is,
though.
Frances Kemmish
>
> "Tony Cooper" <tony_co...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:9l20gp$qsd$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net...
> > Don Aitken wrote:
> >
> > > Actually, a pound is the stretch of water *between* two locks.
> >
> > How do you stretch water?
>
> Aha, ready to learn? Go to:
> http://wwwlwhs.lkwash.wednet.edu/edu/science/IES/WaterWeb/P1-Cohesion-bf.vs/
> bf4692-coh.HTML
> for the finer points in the art of water stretching.
>
On a related subject: the other day while grocery shopping, I stopped
to examine the label on a bottle of Powerade (I think that's what it
was called). The contents of the bottle were a toxic shade of blue,
and I wondered what combination of chemicals had been used to achieve
it.
I didn't get as far as the ingredients list, though, because I was
distracted by seeing that it was intended for "liquid hydration".
Perhaps I am missing something obvious, but isn't hydration usually
liquid?
Fran
Laura F Spira
>
> Padraig wrote:
>
> > Who's this "we"? For me, pickle is an assortment of chopped or diced
> > vegetables in a brown vinegar sauce.
>
> That's Branson Pickle, isn't it? We've some in the pantry. It's
> served in the UK with a ploughman's lunch. There are some shops here
> where we can buy specialty foods like this. Just a few weeks ago my
> wife picked up some Bird's trifle mix for a treat. It always tastes
> better over there.
>
>
When my cousin's wife first arrived in California from the UK she asked
at the local supermarket if they sold Bird's Custard. 'Didn't know birds
ate custard, ma'am,' came the polite reply from the manager.
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
Fabian
"Laura F Spira" <la...@DRAGONspira.u-net.com> wrote in message
news:3B74E94E...@DRAGONspira.u-net.com...
Rreminds me of teh time I was asked if I likd the band smashing
pumpkins. Never having heard of them before, the conversation went liek
this...
Do you like smashing pumpkins?
Umm, well, someone has to smash them i suppose
--
--
Fabian
ghajn f'wicc kahal ra ghajn f'wicc hamar
dak l-ghajn jisbah dan l-ghajn
qal l-ghajn l-ewwel
imma baxx, mhux gholi
Barbara Briggs
"snip
> Interesting coincidence: I have the television on, Diana Krall (sp?)
singing
> jazz some studio show. I wasn't particularly paying attention, but as I
> walked past on my way to fetch a cookbook, she was singing something
> food-related, and said what sounded like, "French-me-fried,"
I love this song and the way the words are used
"Peel Me a Grape"
Peel me a grape, crush me some ice
Skin me a peach,save the fuzz for my pillow
Poach me a prawn, talk to me nice
You gotta wine me and dine me
Don't try to fool me, bejewel me
Either amuse me or lose me
I'm getting hungry, peel me a grape
Pop me a cork , french me a fry
Crack me a nut, bring a bowl fulla bon-bons
Chill me some wine, keep standing by
Just entertain me, champagne me
Show me you love me, kid glove me
Best way to cheer me, cashmere me
I'm getting hungry, peel me a grape
Here's how to be an agreeable chap
Love me and leave me in luxury's lap
Hop when I holler, skip when I snap
When I say, "do it" jump to it
Send out for scotch, call me a cab
Cut me a rose, make my tea with the petals
Just hang around, pick up the tab
Never out think me, just mink me
Polar bear rug me, don't bug me
New Thunderbird me, you heard me
I'm getting hungry, peel me a grape.
There is also a verse on the recording in the same song where she
asks/demands
Bijou me. I felt old as the rest of the group when I needed to explain
to my daughter that the Bijou was a line of theatres and that she was asking
to go to the movies.
Barbara
French me a fry
Skitt
"Fabian" <mu...@chung.ii> wrote in message
news:gyad7.12525$LN3.2...@monolith.news.easynet.net...
>
> Rreminds me of teh time I was asked if I likd the band smashing
> pumpkins. Never having heard of them before, the conversation went liek
> this...
>
> Do you like smashing pumpkins?
>
> Umm, well, someone has to smash them i suppose
Gallagher!
Robert E. Lewis
Barbara Briggs <bbr...@shasta.com> wrote in message
news:tnajr46...@corp.supernews.com...
Tanx.. er, I mean, thanks.
--
Robert
Aaron J Dinkin
> Rreminds me of teh time I was asked if I likd the band smashing
> pumpkins. Never having heard of them before, the conversation went liek
> this...
>
> Do you like smashing pumpkins?
>
> Umm, well, someone has to smash them i suppose
An introduction:
"Billy Corgan, Smashing Pumpkins."
"Homer Simpson, smiling politely."
-Aaron J. Dinkin
Dr. Whom
laroche annie
I have been to England where I lived during eight months for
to learn English.
Good experience !
I worked in a hotel as waitress.
I would like to have a chat with a English person for
to practice this language.
Have fun
Kind regards.
My email is : laroch...@wanadoo.fr
John Seeliger
<3B74BD10...@optonline.net>...
> Skitt wrote:
> >
> > "Tony Cooper" <tony_co...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:9l20gp$qsd$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net...
> > > Don Aitken wrote:
> > >
> > > > Actually, a pound is the stretch of water *between* two locks.
> > >
> > > How do you stretch water?
> >
> > Aha, ready to learn? Go to:
> >
http://wwwlwhs.lkwash.wednet.edu/edu/science/IES/WaterWeb/P1-Cohesion-bf.vs/
> > bf4692-coh.HTML
> > for the finer points in the art of water stretching.
> >
>
> On a related subject: the other day while grocery shopping, I stopped
> to examine the label on a bottle of Powerade (I think that's what it
> was called). The contents of the bottle were a toxic shade of blue,
> and I wondered what combination of chemicals had been used to achieve
> it.
Probably just one. Blue 1, or whatever it's called. Red 40 is another
popular one. Yellow 5 too. I had a cow-orker who was allergic to yellow-5
and to N-SAIDS (aspirin, ibuprofen, etc.) which are apparently similar and
would give her migraines. Bad when a headache medication gives you
headaches and migraines at that. She would give us her yellow and green
candy (eq. Jolly Rancher, Sweet Tarts; both of which colors had yellow 5).
She had to take acetaminophen
.
>
> I didn't get as far as the ingredients list, though, because I was
> distracted by seeing that it was intended for "liquid hydration".
> Perhaps I am missing something obvious, but isn't hydration usually
> liquid?
Perhaps this is solid water hydration.
Gene Wirchenko
>In article <9kvqol$uk3$1...@slb0.atl.mindspring.net>,
> "Maria Conlon" <mcon...@sprynet.com> writes:
>>
>>The part I object to is "young group." While this may be blatant
>>flattery, and while such may be appreciated, I would think that most of
>>us are not especially "young." It depends on your definition of "young,"
>>sure, but I would think the average age here (among regular posters[1])
>>is 45+, with many of us in the "+" category.
>
>Hold on, toots, he said the *group* was young, not its members.
Oddly, in my idiolect, it would mean that the members are young.
I can see the ambiguity now that you've pointed it out.
In order to say that the group itself is young, in my idiolect,
the group is "new".
Hmm, in my idiolect, "old group" would be used for both the group
itself and its members.
I live in British Columbia, Canada.
Don't look at me like that! I didn't design the English
language.
>Didn't someone fairly recently send us a birthday card? "Happy
>birthday, AUE!", or words to that effect. I forget when it was
>supposed to have been born, though.
>
>Anyway, who says 46 is old?
I'm 40. I'll keep quiet if you don't say things like
"whippersnapper".
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation:
I have preferences.
You have biases.
He/She has prejudices.
Gene Wirchenko
[snip]
>Rreminds me of teh time I was asked if I likd the band smashing
>pumpkins. Never having heard of them before, the conversation went liek
>this...
>
>Do you like smashing pumpkins?
>
>Umm, well, someone has to smash them i suppose
Alternatively, I suppose it could be:
Of course! If a pumpkin is good enough to be thought smashing, I
expect I'd like it.
Rainer Thonnes
ge...@shuswap.net (Gene Wirchenko) writes:
>r...@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Rainer Thonnes) wrote:
>> "Maria Conlon" <mcon...@sprynet.com> writes:
>>>
>>>The part I object to is "young group." While this may be blatant
>>>flattery, and while such may be appreciated, I would think that most of
>>>us are not especially "young." It depends on your definition of "young,"
>>>sure, but I would think the average age here (among regular posters[1])
>>>is 45+, with many of us in the "+" category.
>>
>>Hold on, toots, he said the *group* was young, not its members.
>
> Oddly, in my idiolect, it would mean that the members are young.
>I can see the ambiguity now that you've pointed it out.
>
> In order to say that the group itself is young, in my idiolect,
>the group is "new".
I wouldn't call a group new unless it were *very* young, e.g. it had been
formed more recently than, say, a year ago. How would you refer to a
group that was not old enough for "old" but too old for "new"?
I can see the problem, though. "Young" does tend to mean "youthful" and
as such it wants to go with not just any old noun, but one describing an
animate object. Only someone with a mind at least as warped as mine dares
apply it to abstract things as well.
Stephen Toogood
Breathnach <padr...@iol.ie> writes
one of thickness or solids content.
Tomato ketchup and Worcester Sauce are examples of relishes, though
admittedly a bit on the thin side even for relish. But you couldn't call
Branston Pickle, or indeed Hayward's Military Pickle (is that still
around?) a relish - too many lumps.
Then we have to put 'chutney' into the frame.
--
Stephen Toogood
Mike Page
<ste...@stenches.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>I have always thought that the distinction between pickle and relish was
>one of thickness or solids content.
>
>Tomato ketchup and Worcester Sauce are examples of relishes, though
>admittedly a bit on the thin side even for relish. But you couldn't call
>Branston Pickle, or indeed Hayward's Military Pickle (is that still
>around?) a relish - too many lumps.
>
>Then we have to put 'chutney' into the frame.
I was wondering when someone was going to bring that up. I don't
agree with your distinction between relishes and pickles. Relish
seems to cover the whole gamut of spicy, sweet or piquant things
to be served with food Ketchup and Lea and Perrins are clearly
also sauces. I'd classify Branston Pickle as a chutney[1] along
with any other example of lumpy vegetarian concoctions in a
thickened vinegar-based medium. A pickle seems to me to be
relatively unmucked-about food like onions, walnuts, small
cucumbers or eggs preserved in vinegar or brine. Note that the
brine used in making gravadlax or salt beef is also pickle.
[1] Notwithstanding the Indian origins of the word for a spicy
fresh relish.
Mike Page, BF(UU)
Let the ape escape for e-mail
Richard Fontana
> Relish seems to cover the whole gamut of spicy, sweet or piquant things
> to be served with food Ketchup and Lea and Perrins are clearly
> also sauces.
I will assert here that neither conventional tomato ketchup nor
Worcestershire sauce are "sauces" in the American English sense.
Ketchup is definitely a condiment. Perhaps Worcestershire sauce should
also be so described.
I think a "sauce" has to be something that is designed to be a defining
component of the dishes it is employed in. It cannot be used sparingly as
a flavo(u)r enhancer.
Padraig Breathnach
>I will assert here that neither conventional tomato ketchup nor
>Worcestershire sauce are "sauces" in the American English sense.
>
>Ketchup is definitely a condiment. Perhaps Worcestershire sauce should
>also be so described.
>
>I think a "sauce" has to be something that is designed to be a defining
>component of the dishes it is employed in. It cannot be used sparingly as
>a flavo(u)r enhancer.
>
The hoi polloi in rightpondia and Mike Page take a more liberal view:
any liquid or viscuous substance added to food, whether as defining
component or as flavour enhancer is likely to be called a sauce. And
it is not always used sparingly. Sometimes liberal doses are
necessary.
PB
R J Valentine
How about Tabasco sauce, cranberry sauce, soy sauce, and duck sauce (or is
that duct sauce?)? Are they not-sauces in the sense that non-sliced=bread
sandwiches aren't sandwiches? Do your sauces have to be ladled on? Is
gravy a sauce? Drawn butter? Does a sauce have to be edible on its own?
--
R. J. Valentine <mailto:r...@smart.net>
Richard Fontana
> On Sun, 19 Aug 2001 18:02:47 -0400 Richard Fontana <rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> wrote:
>
> } On Sun, 19 Aug 2001, Mike Page wrote:
> }
> }> Relish seems to cover the whole gamut of spicy, sweet or piquant things
> }> to be served with food Ketchup and Lea and Perrins are clearly
> }> also sauces.
> }
> } I will assert here that neither conventional tomato ketchup nor
> } Worcestershire sauce are "sauces" in the American English sense.
> }
> } Ketchup is definitely a condiment. Perhaps Worcestershire sauce should
> } also be so described.
> }
> } I think a "sauce" has to be something that is designed to be a defining
> } component of the dishes it is employed in. It cannot be used sparingly as
> } a flavo(u)r enhancer.
>
> How about Tabasco sauce,
Not a sauce.
> cranberry sauce,
Not a sauce at all. Nor is applesauce.
> soy sauce,
Not a sauce.
> and duck sauce (or is
> that duct sauce?)?
Not a sauce.
> Are they not-sauces in the sense that non-sliced=bread
> sandwiches aren't sandwiches?
Possibly.
> Do your sauces have to be ladled on?
No.
> Is gravy a sauce?
Gravy resembles sauce. I think you could get away with calling gravy a
special-purpose sauce. Calling sauce "gravy" is, however, the American
equivalent of non-U.
> Drawn butter?
Possibly.
> Does a sauce have to be edible on its own?
Probably not, but if it is edible on its own it is more likely to be a
sauce.
Frances Kemmish
Does that include calling pasta sauce "gravy"?
Fran
Richard Fontana
> Richard Fontana wrote:
> >
> > > Is gravy a sauce?
> >
> > Gravy resembles sauce. I think you could get away with calling gravy a
> > special-purpose sauce. Calling sauce "gravy" is, however, the American
> > equivalent of non-U.
> >
>
> Does that include calling pasta sauce "gravy"?
Indeed it does; that's what I had in mind.
Mike Barnes
>I'd classify Branston Pickle as a chutney[1] along
>with any other example of lumpy vegetarian concoctions in a
>thickened vinegar-based medium.
To me a chutney has to be clearly fruit-based. I think Branston is
vegetable-based. (Not long now before we get onto gheavc, fjrqr, and
ehgnontn, I suspect).
>A pickle seems to me to be
>relatively unmucked-about food like onions,
Agreed. In our family, "pickles" were pickled onions.
>walnuts, small
>cucumbers or eggs preserved in vinegar or brine.
But walnuts I can't agree to, unless "relatively unmucked-about"
includes "rendered unrecognisable and inedible".
--
Mike Barnes
Charles Riggs
<rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> wrote:
>> How about Tabasco sauce,
>
>Not a sauce.
A sauce.
>> cranberry sauce,
>
>Not a sauce at all. Nor is applesauce.
Not sauces. Too thick.
>> soy sauce,
>
>Not a sauce.
A sauce, but it only barely fits the definition, as yet unspecified.
>> and duck sauce (or is
>> that duct sauce?)?
>
>Not a sauce.
Most definitely a sauce. If duck sauce is not a sauce, there is no
such thing as a sauce.
>> Do your sauces have to be ladled on?
>
>No.
Here, you are correct.
>> Is gravy a sauce?
>
>Gravy resembles sauce. I think you could get away with calling gravy a
>special-purpose sauce. Calling sauce "gravy" is, however, the American
>equivalent of non-U.
Technically, a sauce, since A1 and HP are sauces, but nearly everyone
calls it gravy if it is homemade.
>> Drawn butter?
>
>Possibly.
Not a sauce because it is only butter. A sauce has to have more to
it. Similarly, vinegar is not a sauce nor is lemon juice.
>> Does a sauce have to be edible on its own?
No.
>Probably not, but if it is edible on its own it is more likely to be a
>sauce.
Less likely, you mean, which is one reason why applesauce is not a
sauce whereas tabasco, A1, HP, and ketchup are.
Charles Riggs
Richard Fontana
> On Sun, 19 Aug 2001 23:45:44 -0400, Richard Fontana
> <rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> wrote:
> >> Is gravy a sauce?
> >
> >Gravy resembles sauce. I think you could get away with calling gravy a
> >special-purpose sauce. Calling sauce "gravy" is, however, the American
> >equivalent of non-U.
>
> Technically, a sauce, since A1 and HP are sauces, but nearly everyone
> calls it gravy if it is homemade.
I've never had HP. A1 (which, I understand, resembles HP) is, IMO, not a
true sauce, though of course it is called "steak sauce". It is
functionally more akin to ketchup.
> >> Drawn butter?
> >
> >Possibly.
>
> Not a sauce because it is only butter. A sauce has to have more to
> it. Similarly, vinegar is not a sauce nor is lemon juice.
Here you are correct.
John Seeliger
<Pine.GSO.4.21.010820...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu>...
> On Mon, 20 Aug 2001, Charles Riggs wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 19 Aug 2001 23:45:44 -0400, Richard Fontana
> > <rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> wrote:
> > >> Is gravy a sauce?
> > >
> > >Gravy resembles sauce. I think you could get away with calling gravy
a
> > >special-purpose sauce. Calling sauce "gravy" is, however, the
American
> > >equivalent of non-U.
> >
> > Technically, a sauce, since A1 and HP are sauces, but nearly everyone
> > calls it gravy if it is homemade.
>
> I've never had HP. A1 (which, I understand, resembles HP) is, IMO, not a
> true sauce, though of course it is called "steak sauce". It is
> functionally more akin to ketchup.
What then in your book is a sauce? I think A1 significantly enhances the
taste of steak and as for Tobasco which you previously said was not a
sauce, if you put enough of that on your food, you won't taste anything
else.
What about BBQ sauce? Is that a sauce? It is the defining flavor in BBQ.
Richard Fontana
> Richard Fontana <rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> wrote in article
> <Pine.GSO.4.21.010820...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu>...
> > On Mon, 20 Aug 2001, Charles Riggs wrote:
> >
> > > On Sun, 19 Aug 2001 23:45:44 -0400, Richard Fontana
> > > <rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> wrote:
> > > >> Is gravy a sauce?
> > > >
> > > >Gravy resembles sauce. I think you could get away with calling gravy
> a
> > > >special-purpose sauce. Calling sauce "gravy" is, however, the
> American
> > > >equivalent of non-U.
I've reconsidered the matter. I now consider sauce and gravy to be
completely distinct. They may resemble one another in certain respects,
but they are functionally different.
> > > Technically, a sauce, since A1 and HP are sauces, but nearly everyone
> > > calls it gravy if it is homemade.
> >
> > I've never had HP. A1 (which, I understand, resembles HP) is, IMO, not a
> > true sauce, though of course it is called "steak sauce". It is
> > functionally more akin to ketchup.
>
> What then in your book is a sauce?
All right. I'll go out on a limb here and state what I think. The
Platonic sort of "sauce" is tomato sauce, such as one might use
with pasta, or similar sorts of sauces associated with certain sorts
of regional Italian cuisine. Really just about any sort of legitimate
traditional sauce one might use with pasta is "sauce", though I think it
helps if the sauce is relatively thick or substantial and hurts otherwise.
All other "sauces" are derivatives of this sort of sauce. The less
something resembles such "sauce", in function if not in form, the weaker
the claim that such a thing is "sauce".
> I think A1 significantly enhances the
> taste of steak
Agreed. It's a flavour enhancer. It's "steak sauce", even. But it is
not sauce, or a sauce.
> and as for Tobasco which you previously said was not a
> sauce, if you put enough of that on your food, you won't taste anything
> else.
Agreed. I like Tabasco Sauce. It just happens not to be sauce. It's
basically flavored vinegar, isn't it? It would be difficult to argue that
flavored vinegar is "sauce". But that goes to form. Function is more
important. Tabasco Sauce does not function as sauce.
I will say, however, that Tabasco, soy sauce, tamari, Worcestershire
sauce, "hot sauce" (the stuff that's more or less off-brand Tabasco) --
all such things are members of a common class. Just happens not to be the
"sauce" class. You might actually want to put certain flavored vinegars
in this same class.
Similarly, (tomato) ketchup, bottled "barbecue sauce" (see below), A1
Steak Sauce (and perhaps the fabled UK "HP" sauce) belong to a common
class -- also not "sauce".
> What about BBQ sauce? Is that a sauce? It is the defining flavor in BBQ.
I don't really know from true BBQ sauce, such as might be used in
particular authentic regional American cuisine. The bottled barbecue
sauce sold in supermarkets is definitely not sauce; it's really just a
strongly flavored variant of ketchup. Now what you call BBQ sauce might
be sauce, if it's sufficiently different from bottled barbecue sauce
*and* sufficiently saucelike in at least a functional sense. I'm
sure it's good and a defining flavor, but that dudn't mean it's sauce.
Bill Schnakenberg
Would you believe that many NY Italian-Americans call the tomato
concoction that they put on pasta, 'gravy'?
I have had discussions with Italian in-law (2 sets over 40 years, I
might add) about their calling 'sauce', 'gravy'.
[...]
--
Bill
Richard Fontana
I believe that this may be true, though I think it may be quite regionally
and certainly generationally restricted. I've never really investigated
the matter. I've assumed it was more of an outside-the-city usage, or
maybe a general old-fashioned usage.
Al in Dallas
I've always been led to believe that calling pasta
sauce "gravy" was peculiar to the Italian side of
my family. (Essex County, New Jersey)
How widespread is this use of "gravy"?
--
Al in Dallas
Mike Page
wrote:
>In alt.usage.english, Mike Page <da...@pagedm.orang.fsnet.co.uk> wrote
>>I'd classify Branston Pickle as a chutney[1] along
>>with any other example of lumpy vegetarian concoctions in a
>>thickened vinegar-based medium.
>
>To me a chutney has to be clearly fruit-based. I think Branston is
>vegetable-based. (Not long now before we get onto gheavc, fjrqr, and
>ehgnontn, I suspect).
What about green tomato chutney? (No quibbling that botanically
tomatoes are fruits, please.)
>
>>A pickle seems to me to be
>>relatively unmucked-about food like onions,
>
>Agreed. In our family, "pickles" were pickled onions.
>
>>walnuts, small
>>cucumbers or eggs preserved in vinegar or brine.
>
>But walnuts I can't agree to, unless "relatively unmucked-about"
>includes "rendered unrecognisable and inedible".
Only two processes - soak in brine, submerge in boiling vinegar.
The walnuts start completely inedible because they are unripe.
It's surprising that such a simple process renders them a useful
addition to stews. I don't go a bomb on them eaten straight from
the jar.
Mike Page
<rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> wrote:
>
>Gravy resembles sauce. I think you could get away with calling gravy a
>special-purpose sauce. Calling sauce "gravy" is, however, the American
>equivalent of non-U.
>
What do Americans mean by gravy. Here it is a sauce derived from
the dripping from the roast. Some just degrease the dripping and
serve. Others thicken the dripping with flour, or cornflour or
gravy browning. I don't think there are any other literal uses.
It would be non-U to call such a sauce anything but gravy.
Brian J Goggin
Page) wrote:
>What about green tomato chutney? (No quibbling that botanically
>tomatoes are fruits, please.)
What about green tomato ketchup?
And purple too, they tell me.
bjg
Joe Manfre
> Richard Fontana wrote:
>>Gravy resembles sauce. I think you could get away with calling
>>gravy a special-purpose sauce. Calling sauce "gravy" is, however,
>>the American equivalent of non-U.
>
> What do Americans mean by gravy. Here it is a sauce derived from
> the dripping from the roast. Some just degrease the dripping and
> serve. Others thicken the dripping with flour, or cornflour or
> gravy browning. I don't think there are any other literal uses.
Yeah, that's the only thing I've ever used the word "gravy" to mean.
I suspect that that is what most people in the U.S. would mean by
"gravy". In fact, it wasn't until this thread that I realized anyone
had any other literal uses of the word.
JM
--
Joe Manfre, Hyattsville, Maryland.
John Seeliger
<9lunk0$b1ikr$1...@ID-81441.news.dfncis.de>...
Maxwell Smart had an expression which he used at least once but probably
more times. When Montebello was about to kill him and bury him in a grave
at the cemetery that had already been dug up, Max commented to 99 that it
was located at the top of a hill and it had a nice view to which 99
replied, "Max, he's going to kill us," and Max replied, "Well, it's not all
gravy, 99. You have to take the bad with the good." Is there any other
usage of this besides by Maxwell Smart/Don Adams or is this something that
he made up himself? There are no matches on Google for '"not all gravy"
"you have to take the bad with the good"'
Richard Fontana
> On Sun, 19 Aug 2001 23:45:44 -0400, Richard Fontana
> <rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> wrote:
>
> >
> >Gravy resembles sauce. I think you could get away with calling gravy a
> >special-purpose sauce. Calling sauce "gravy" is, however, the American
> >equivalent of non-U.
> >
> What do Americans mean by gravy. Here it is a sauce derived from
> the dripping from the roast. Some just degrease the dripping and
> serve. Others thicken the dripping with flour, or cornflour or
> gravy browning. I don't think there are any other literal uses.
That's the standard American understanding of "gravy", but see below.
> It would be non-U to call such a sauce anything but gravy.
I'm not prepared to call gravy a kind of sauce. It belongs to a distinct
class, the gravy class. But I would say that gravy and sauce are
categorical siblings. Fraternal twins, even.
Franke
Mike Page wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Aug 2001 23:45:44 -0400, Richard Fontana
> <rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> wrote:
>
> >
> >Gravy resembles sauce. I think you could get away with calling gravy a
> >special-purpose sauce. Calling sauce "gravy" is, however, the American
> >equivalent of non-U.
> >
> What do Americans mean by gravy. Here it is a sauce derived from
> the dripping from the roast. Some just degrease the dripping and
> serve. Others thicken the dripping with flour, or cornflour or
> gravy browning. I don't think there are any other literal uses.
If this has already been mentioned, I apologise for repeating it,
but there is "Gravy Train", the dog food that creates its own
"gravy" when you add water to the dry kibble. I think that
qualifies for a literal usage.
John Seeliger
> What do Americans mean by gravy. Here it is a sauce derived from
> the dripping from the roast. Some just degrease the dripping and
> serve. Others thicken the dripping with flour, or cornflour or
> gravy browning. I don't think there are any other literal uses.
There is also white gravy used on mashed potatoes, chicken fried steak,
chicken fried chicken and steak fingers which like Texas toast and french
fries can be dipped in white gravy if one orders a country basket at Dairy
Queen[1]. This is made from flour but I don't think there are an meat
drippings in it, though I've never made this.
[1]- The last time DQ was mentioned in this group, Charles Riggs said there
goes the neighborhood.
Paul Pfalzner
"Joe Manfre" <man...@flash.net> wrote in message
news:9lunk0$b1ikr$1...@ID-81441.news.dfncis.de...
>
> Yeah, that's the only thing I've ever used the word "gravy" to mean.
> I suspect that that is what most people in the U.S. would mean by
> "gravy". In fact, it wasn't until this thread that I realized anyone
> had any other literal uses of the word.
>
"It's the rich what gets the gravy, it's the poor what ..."
Paul
GrapeApe
>> I suspect that that is what most people in the U.S. would mean by
>> "gravy". In fact, it wasn't until this thread that I realized anyone
>> had any other literal uses of the word.
>>
>Only thing?
>"It's the rich what gets the gravy, it's the poor what ..
Yes, whatever you may think of gravy, as some slimy by product or some rare
succulent sauce, Gravy does have that allegorical relation to "profit"- "and
the rest is gravy...."
So is Gravy ritzy or what?
Tony Cooper
> I suspect that that is what most people in the U.S. would mean by
> "gravy". In fact, it wasn't until this thread that I realized
anyone
> had any other literal uses of the word.
There's the expression "Good gravy!" (similar to "Great Scott!), a
"gravy train" (meaning getting in on a good thing), "a gravy job"
(meaning an easy job) and "it's not always gravy" (meaning it's not
always good).
--
Tony Cooper aka: Tony_Co...@Yahoo.com
Provider of Jots & Tittles
R H Draney
>If this has already been mentioned, I apologise for repeating it,
>but there is "Gravy Train", the dog food that creates its own
>"gravy" when you add water to the dry kibble. I think that
>qualifies for a literal usage.
Actually, I'm pretty sure the commercial said "makes its own *sauce*
when you add water"...leastwise, that's what you hear Frank Zappa says
sotto voce in the intro to the title track from the "Joe's Garage"
epic...the *name* of the product was, as you say, "Gravy Train", which
derives from an older metaphor (similar to "pie in the sky") that
likely goes back to the hobo jungles of the Depression....r
--
"And a second-hand guitar, it was a Stratocaster with a whammy bar"
Mike Barnes
>On Sun, 19 Aug 2001 23:10:57 +0100, Mike Barnes <mi...@senrab.com>
>wrote:
>
>>In alt.usage.english, Mike Page <da...@pagedm.orang.fsnet.co.uk> wrote
>>>I'd classify Branston Pickle as a chutney[1] along
>>>with any other example of lumpy vegetarian concoctions in a
>>>thickened vinegar-based medium.
>>
>>To me a chutney has to be clearly fruit-based. I think Branston is
>>vegetable-based. (Not long now before we get onto gheavc, fjrqr, and
>>ehgnontn, I suspect).
>
>What about green tomato chutney? (No quibbling that botanically
>tomatoes are fruits, please.)
As you rule out my answer, I have no answer. My mother-in-law's green
tomato chutney is excellent and has a nice fruity flavour.
>>>A pickle seems to me to be
>>>relatively unmucked-about food like onions,
>>
>>Agreed. In our family, "pickles" were pickled onions.
>>
>>>walnuts, small
>>>cucumbers or eggs preserved in vinegar or brine.
>>
>>But walnuts I can't agree to, unless "relatively unmucked-about"
>>includes "rendered unrecognisable and inedible".
>
>Only two processes - soak in brine, submerge in boiling vinegar.
>The walnuts start completely inedible because they are unripe.
>It's surprising that such a simple process renders them a useful
>addition to stews. I don't go a bomb on them eaten straight from
>the jar.
Me neither, and then some, but the stew idea sounds interesting. Do you
chop them and add them at the last minute for body, or what? I wouldn't
want to ruin a perfectly good stew, and I regard adding PWs as risky
enough proposition without the risk of getting the method wrong.
--
Mike Barnes
Matthew M. Huntbach
Pickled walnuts straight from the jar with pork pie, washed down with
a strong beer (Chimay red label is best) is one of my all time great meals.
Matthew Huntbach
Al in Dallas
[snip]
> There is also white gravy used on mashed potatoes, chicken fried steak,
> chicken fried chicken and steak fingers which like Texas toast and french
> fries can be dipped in white gravy if one orders a country basket at Dairy
> Queen[1]. This is made from flour but I don't think there are an meat
> drippings in it, though I've never made this.
>
> [1]- The last time DQ was mentioned in this group, Charles Riggs said there
> goes the neighborhood.
That's "cream gravy." It's made in the same saucepan that's just
been used to fry the bacon, sausage, or chicken-fried steak. Hence,
there're meat drippings in it. (IIRC, flour and whole milk are the
main ingredients. And the first time my son made it, he added the
milk before browning the flour. He proceeded to try and repair the
color with black pepper. Teenaged cooks--God bless'em!)
--
Al in Dallas (since '82)
Mike Barnes
>Pickled walnuts straight from the jar with pork pie, washed down with
>a strong beer (Chimay red label is best) is one of my all time great meals.
Pork pie without mustard?
It'll take me a while to get used to that idea.
--
Mike Barnes
Joe Manfre
> Joe Manfre said:
>
>> I suspect that that is what most people in the U.S. would mean by
>> "gravy". In fact, it wasn't until this thread that I realized
>> anyone had any other literal uses of the word.
>
> There's the expression "Good gravy!" (similar to "Great Scott!), a
> "gravy train" (meaning getting in on a good thing), "a gravy job"
> (meaning an easy job) and "it's not always gravy" (meaning it's not
> always good).
This must be your sense of irony coming through again. Good show!
Franke
I forget who said that Gravy Train commericals said "sauce",
but they don't say it here:
<http://www.gravytraindog.com/glance.html>
If there's one thing dogs love, it's rich,
beefy gravy. That's why every nugget of
Gravy Train is basted in real beef juices.
Just mix it with warm water, and you can
give your dog a warm homestyle meal,
dripping with the delicious gravy he loves.
--
"Make definite assertions. Avoid tame, colorless,
hesitating, non-committal language."
-- William Strunk Jr., "Elements of Style"
Mike Page
wrote:
>Me neither, and then some, but the stew idea sounds interesting. Do you
>chop them and add them at the last minute for body, or what? I wouldn't
>want to ruin a perfectly good stew, and I regard adding PWs as risky
>enough proposition without the risk of getting the method wrong.
This recipe works equally well with venison. Marinade your meat
with half a pint of Guinness, half a pint of port, and five or
six coarsely chopped pickled walnuts plus the usual stuff -
onion, garlic, pepper - for twenty four hours. Drain the meat,
coat in seasoned flour and brown in the fat of choice - beef
dripping or olive oil for preference. Bung in a pot with the
marinade and stew until tender; add veggies of choice (I'm very
fond of brown braised pickling onions, a few mushrooms or
reconstituted dried ceps wouldn't be overegging the pudding)
about half an hour before the end. Unless you have quite a lot
of meat this is a generous quantity of marinade so you could pare
it back a bit for smaller quantities.
Mike Page
wrote:
>In alt.usage.english, Matthew M. Huntbach <m...@dcs.qmw.ac.uk> wrote
Like the car in the Phantom Tollboth, the mustard goes without
saying.
Gene Wirchenko
>I forget who said that Gravy Train commericals said "sauce",
>but they don't say it here:
><http://www.gravytraindog.com/glance.html>
> If there's one thing dogs love, it's rich,
>beefy gravy. That's why every nugget of
"Arf! You got that right, but the bitch keeps complaining that
she doesn't want to be working over a hot stove."
>Gravy Train is basted in real beef juices.
> Just mix it with warm water, and you can
>give your dog a warm homestyle meal,
>dripping with the delicious gravy he loves.
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation:
I have preferences.
You have biases.
He/She has prejudices.
Skitt
"R H Draney" <dado...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3b8342cc...@news.earthlink.net...
To settle the matter, here's what their official page at
http://www.gravytraindog.com/glance.html says:
=======
If there's one thing dogs love, it's rich, beefy gravy. That's why every
nugget of Gravy Train is basted in real beef juices. Just mix it with warm
water, and you can give your dog a warm homestyle meal, dripping with the
delicious gravy he loves.
=======
It's gravy! I would not be surprised, though, if it is changed to "sauce"
for foreign markets.
--
Skitt (in SF Bay Area) http://www.geocities.com/opus731/
I speak English well -- I learn it from a book!
-- Manuel of "Fawlty Towers" (he's from Barcelona).
chime...@libero.it
> Dear Sis:
>
> Sorry for not writing more frequently, but I've been spending too much
> time on the computer lately. I've been reading a news group called
> "alt.usage.english" which ostensibly has to do with word meanings and
> word usage. I say "ostensibly" because that is the chartered purpose
> of the group, but the real purpose seems to be to discuss food groups,
> food definitions, and forms of words meaning food items. If an army
> travels on its' stomach, then an army of pedants travels whilst
> discussing the past, present and future contents of its' stomach.
>
> There must be over 400 posts to date just on the definition of a
> grilled cheese sandwich. This mighty group has focused their
> intellect on the humble sandwich and discussed ad infinitum and ad
> nauseam the requirements of the shape of the bread, the cut of the
> bread, the name of the bread, the quantity of pieces of bread, the
> origin of the bread, and the manner of eating the bread. A side
> issue - but one passionately debated - was the means of grilling of
> the bread and the implements used. They have not yet gone into the
> grilled cheese sandwich with a slice of pickle. I anticipate a lively
> discussion on pickles.
>
> Sometimes, the group discusses definitions of words. For example,
> they might discuss the word "pedant". Now, you and I might just think
> the word means someone that's a picky smartass about spelling mistakes
> and using "further" when you mean "farther". These guys don't do it
> this way, though. They would give you something like this:
>
> Main Entry: Ped-ant
> Pronunciation: 'pe-d&nt
> Function: noun
> Etymology: Middle French, from Italian pedante
> Date: 1588
> 1 obsolete : a male schoolteacher
> 2a : one who makes a show of knowledge
> 2b : one who is unimaginative or who unduly emphasizes minutiae in the
> presentation or use of knowledge
> 2c : a formalist or precisionist in teaching
>
> I took this from the Merriam-Webster dictionary, but they would
> probably use the Oxford English Dictionary definition. In this group,
> referencing the O.E.D. is like flashing your Rolex....it shows you
> have a serious enough interest to spend the big bucks.
>
> They don't seem to get into the oddity of words, though. Like a
> pedant is something you call someone else, but not something you want
> to be called. If you correct my usage, you're a pedant. If I correct
> your usage, I'm widening your knowledge base.
>
> The second most widely discussed topic (in the time that I've been
> reading the group) in this forum for word usage is geographical
> anomalies. I only skimmed the threads, but it seems that in certain
> parts of some cities that 12th Avenue can cross 12th Street. This is
> considered to be of great interest to these people! They have each
> provided detailed analysis of their neighborhood's street grids, house
> numbering systems, and nearby roadway patterns. I fully expect the
> next great thread to be what street to take to get to a favorite
> sandwich shop.
>
> A smaller, but interesting, thread has been on something called Rot13.
> This, according to the group, is a sophisticated encrypting system
> using one letter of the alphabet to represent another letter of the
> alphabet. They evidently have computer programs to both encode and
> decode the Rot13 system. It's a young group, Sis, and they must have
> grown up long after you could get a Capt. Midnight Code-O-Graph ring
> for three Ovaltine labels and 25 cents. We waited by the mailbox for
> weeks for ours, and they buy theirs on e-Bay.
>
> It's a mannerly group of people that post in alt.usage.english. The
> only thing that seems to upset them is something called "PGP". I
> don't understand it all that well, but it seems to be a system that
> prevents other people from stealing your news group identity. Their
> objection seems to be that adding the PGP information increases the
> post by 12 to 14 lines. There have been about 150 posts objecting to
> this. Since no one in the group seems to be able to snip to the
> relevant lines, this means that they have posted about 4,500 lines of
> objection to 12 extra lines in a couple of posts. It must be a
> principle thing.
>
> There are some conventions that must be observed in this group. As far
> as I can tell, it is déclassé to say Americans or Europeans. You
> must say "leftpondians" or "rightpondians". This is a group that will
> go to the wall on a discussion of pronominal declensions, but insists
> on calling the Atlantic Ocean a pond. I've not yet figured out how to
> differentiate South America from Africa.
>
> They've a contest running with a number of questions posted daily. By
> the time I read the questions, the answers have already appeared.
> I'll give you a question, though: Where do you find a pound that
> empties and fills but never should contain a dog or a cat?
>
> Affectionately,
tony cooper
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Don Phillipson
news:t6q1b81sr3aftmht9...@4ax.com...
> Evidently, it takes over a decade for my posts to reach Italy.
uphill as he can go down.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Mike L
<e9...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> wrote:
>"tony cooper" <tony.co...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:t6q1b81sr3aftmht9...@4ax.com...
>
>> Evidently, it takes over a decade for my posts to reach Italy.
>
>We cannot expect the postino's donkey to walk as fast
>uphill as he can go down.
report, Tony: you mustn't neglect Sis.
--
Mike.
Whiskers
> On Sat, 24 Nov 2012 13:27:02 -0500, "Don Phillipson"
> <e9...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> wrote:
>
>>"tony cooper" <tony.co...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:t6q1b81sr3aftmht9...@4ax.com...
>>
>>> Evidently, it takes over a decade for my posts to reach Italy.
>>
>>We cannot expect the postino's donkey to walk as fast
>>uphill as he can go down.
network.
> Still as fresh as the day it was posted, though. Time for another
> report, Tony: you mustn't neglect Sis.
--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~
Dr Nick
Quoting someone quoting him back in the mists of time:
>>> They've a contest running with a number of questions posted
>>> daily. By the time I read the questions, the answers have already
>>> appeared. I'll give you a question, though: Where do you find a
>>> pound that empties and fills but never should contain a dog or a
>>> cat?
>>>
>>> Affectionately,
>
waterways related.
Of to Google I think...