[=SDC=] Toughie #3
Gwen Lenker
Innamorato, Ogier the Dane, and
A. Archbishop Turpin
Jerry Friedman
I like "Oliver" better, since it starts with an O like the others.
--
Jerry Friedman
jfrE...@nnm.cc.nm.us
i before e
and all the disclaimers
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Mark Barratt
>Q. Add one more to complete this series: Orlando Furioso,
Orlando
>Innamorato, Ogier the Dane, and
>
>A. Archbishop Turpin
Ok, some research on this toughie - no results yet, though. The
first two items in the list are works of literature, dealing
with Charlemagne and his paladins (knights). "Orlando
innamorato" (Orlando in love) is the earlier work, by one Matteo
Maria Boiardo (Bojardo). "Orlando furioso" is a sequel written
by one Ludivico Ariosto. The 'Orlando' in the titles is the same
character - one of Charlemagne's paladins. O'gier the Dane is
another of Charlemagne's paladins who features in at least the
later work, and also in "Historia de Vita Caroli Magni et
Rolandi" a work attributed to the Archbishop Turpin of Gwen's
answer (a contemporary of Charlemagne), but now thought to have
been written much later. These characters are tangled throughout
European mythology, including the Arthurian legends. Orlando is
also known as Roland, and is a character in Shakespeare's 'As
you like it'. O'gier the Dane is said to be the character
represented by the jack (knave) of spades in France. The trouble
is, I can find no reference to a work of literature of this
name. How then do two poems and a possibly fictional knight
constitute three-quarters of a set? Dunno.
My guess, for no particular reason, is "Le Chanson de Roland"
another poem about the same characters.
Regards
Mark Barratt
TOaSDC defending champion
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Aaron J Dinkin
> gale...@mail.com (Gwen Lenker) wrote:
>
>>Q. Add one more to complete this series: Orlando Furioso,
>> Orlando Innamorato, Ogier the Dane, and
>>
>>A. Archbishop Turpin
>
> Ok, some research on this toughie - no results yet, though. The
> first two items in the list are works of literature, dealing
> with Charlemagne and his paladins (knights). "Orlando
> innamorato" (Orlando in love) is the earlier work, by one Matteo
> Maria Boiardo (Bojardo). "Orlando furioso" is a sequel written
> by one Ludivico Ariosto. The 'Orlando' in the titles is the same
> character - one of Charlemagne's paladins. O'gier the Dane is
> another of Charlemagne's paladins who features in at least the
> later work, and also in "Historia de Vita Caroli Magni et
> Rolandi" a work attributed to the Archbishop Turpin of Gwen's
> answer (a contemporary of Charlemagne), but now thought to have
> been written much later.
<snip>
> The trouble is, I can find no reference to a work of literature of this
> name.
There's a reference to one at
<http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/cariadoc/period_sources_for_story_telling.html>
- it's one of the Chansons de Geste.
> My guess, for no particular reason, is "Le Chanson de Roland"
> another poem about the same characters.
That could be it; it's listed on the same page, in the same paragraph as
Ogier. In case it's not, I'll guess "Huon of Bordeaux".
-Aaron J. Dinkin
Dr. Whom
Jerry Friedman
Jerry Friedman <jfried...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> In article <3987dac8...@news.cis.dfn.de>,
> gale...@mail.com (Gwen Lenker) wrote:
> > Q. Add one more to complete this series: Orlando Furioso, Orlando
> > Innamorato, Ogier the Dane, and
> >
> > A. Archbishop Turpin
>
All right, if you don't like that, my totally official second answer is
"Olivier".
Gwen Lenker
<jfried...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>In article <8ma5sl$h2s$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> Jerry Friedman <jfried...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>> In article <3987dac8...@news.cis.dfn.de>,
>> gale...@mail.com (Gwen Lenker) wrote:
>> > Q. Add one more to complete this series: Orlando Furioso, Orlando
>> > Innamorato, Ogier the Dane, and
>> >
>> > A. Archbishop Turpin
>>
>> I like "Oliver" better, since it starts with an O like the others.
>
>All right, if you don't like that, my totally official second answer is
>"Olivier".
Well, there's an opera, "Holger Danske" (Ogier the Dane), and an
opera, "Orlando Furioso." I can't find an opera of "Orlando
Innamorato," but "opera" starts with the letter "O" and so does
"Oberon," which is another opera with a lot of the same characters in
it, so my guess for this hour is "Oberon."
Robert Lipton
This is a bit more complicated. 'Orlando' is the Italian and possibly
the Spanish version of 'Roland.' 'Oberon' is the French form of
Alberich, the dwarf which is best known to those of us who have suffered
through Wagner's operas. Different cycle entirely.
Bob
Gwen Lenker
If "Oberon" is the wrong opera, could "Alcina" be the right one?
Jerry Friedman
Aaron J Dinkin <din...@fas.harvard.edu> wrote:
> Mark Barratt <flywr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > gale...@mail.com (Gwen Lenker) wrote:
> >
> >>Q. Add one more to complete this series: Orlando Furioso,
> >> Orlando Innamorato, Ogier the Dane, and
> >>
> >>A. Archbishop Turpin
> >
> > first two items in the list are works of literature, dealing
> > with Charlemagne and his paladins (knights). "Orlando
> > innamorato" (Orlando in love) is the earlier work, by one Matteo
> > Maria Boiardo (Bojardo). "Orlando furioso" is a sequel written
> > by one Ludivico Ariosto. The 'Orlando' in the titles is the same
> > character - one of Charlemagne's paladins. O'gier the Dane is
> > another of Charlemagne's paladins who features in at least the
> > later work,
("Ogier"--no apostrophe.)
...
> > My guess, for no particular reason, is "Le Chanson de Roland"
> > another poem about the same characters.
>
> That could be it; it's listed on the same page, in the same paragraph
as
> Ogier.
I'm getting culture shock. I first read the story of Roland at
Roncesvalles (as well as a Danocentric sketch on Holger Danske) in
childhood. I read "Le chanson de Roland" for both a high-school and a
college class. I see references to the story in a poem here, a fantasy
novel there... and you highly educated guys are talking about them as if
they weren't part of everyone's culture!
> In case it's not, I'll guess "Huon of Bordeaux".
As long as we're guessing, I'll guess _The Faerie Queen_, by Edmund
Spenser. I'm told it borrowed heavily from _Orlando Furioso_ (and I'm
told that is one of the masterworks of Italian literature, and Ariosto
is ranked with Dante, Petrarch, and Tasso).
Gwen Lenker
wrote:
>On Wed, 09 Aug 2000 12:14:07 GMT, Robert Lipton
><bobl...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>>Gwen Lenker wrote:
>>>
>>> On Tue, 08 Aug 2000 21:52:39 GMT, Jerry Friedman
>>> <jfried...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> >In article <8ma5sl$h2s$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
>>> > Jerry Friedman <jfried...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>>> >> In article <3987dac8...@news.cis.dfn.de>,
>>> >> gale...@mail.com (Gwen Lenker) wrote:
>>> >> > Q. Add one more to complete this series: Orlando Furioso, Orlando
>>> >> > Innamorato, Ogier the Dane, and
>>> >> >
>>> >> > A. Archbishop Turpin
>>> >>
>>> >> I like "Oliver" better, since it starts with an O like the others.
>>> >
>>> >All right, if you don't like that, my totally official second answer is
>>> >"Olivier".
>>>
>>> Well, there's an opera, "Holger Danske" (Ogier the Dane), and an
>>> opera, "Orlando Furioso." I can't find an opera of "Orlando
>>> Innamorato," but "opera" starts with the letter "O" and so does
>>> "Oberon," which is another opera with a lot of the same characters in
>>> it, so my guess for this hour is "Oberon."
>>
>>This is a bit more complicated. 'Orlando' is the Italian and possibly
>>the Spanish version of 'Roland.' 'Oberon' is the French form of
>>Alberich, the dwarf which is best known to those of us who have suffered
>>through Wagner's operas. Different cycle entirely.
>
>
>If "Oberon" is the wrong opera, could "Alcina" be the right one?
Morgana, then, or Morgan le Fay, whatever you want to call her.
Why?
Because Garry says so -- I don't know why!
Gwen Lenker
wrote:
>
>Morgana, then, or Morgan le Fay, whatever you want to call her.
>
>Why?
>
>Because Garry says so -- I don't know why!
http://www.eliki.com/ancient/myth/camelot/morganlefay/content.htm
"Outside the Arthurian stories, Morgan appears in the romance Ogier
the Dane as the lady of Avalon, and in Ariosot's Orlando Furioso as
the enchantress Morgana, living under a lake. She gives her name to
the Fata Morgana, a mirage seen in the Straits of Messina, once
attributed to her magic.
mag...@totally-official.com
gale...@mail.com (Gwen Lenker) put fingers to keyboard and
typed:
Folks, we have a winner.
Sheep to be determined...
jc
--
Panel Member, Totally Official aue Summer Doldrums Competition.
If you'd like to Totally Avoid the competition, see the advice at
<url:http://www.exodus.u-net.com/sdc2000/filtering.htm>.
Garry J. Vass
news:3992f747...@news.cis.dfn.de...
>
> Why?
>
> Because Garry says so -- I don't know why!
>
Sportsmanship booked and recorded! Nice sharing of research findings,
Gwen.
--
Posted by a member of the Totally Official aue Summer Doldrums
Competition Panel. For further information, including how to filter out
these messages, go to http://www.exodus.u-net.com/sdc2000/filtering.htm
Aaron J Dinkin
> On Thu, 10 Aug 2000 18:48:19 GMT, in alt.usage.english,
> gale...@mail.com (Gwen Lenker) put fingers to keyboard and
> typed:
>
>>On Thu, 10 Aug 2000 18:44:01 GMT, gale...@mail.com (Gwen Lenker)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Morgana, then, or Morgan le Fay, whatever you want to call her.
>>>
>>>Why?
>>>
>>>Because Garry says so -- I don't know why!
>>
>>http://www.eliki.com/ancient/myth/camelot/morganlefay/content.htm
>>
>>"Outside the Arthurian stories, Morgan appears in the romance Ogier
>>the Dane as the lady of Avalon, and in Ariosot's Orlando Furioso as
>>the enchantress Morgana, living under a lake. She gives her name to
>>the Fata Morgana, a mirage seen in the Straits of Messina, once
>>attributed to her magic
>
> Folks, we have a winner.
How so? I thought the correct answer was _Le Morte d'Arthur_.
mag...@totally-official.com
<din...@fas.harvard.edu> put fingers to keyboard and typed:
The answer given in the Totally Official answer key is:
Morte d'Arthur (Morgan le Fay)
I (and I think I can speak for the Panel on this one) would be
happy to entertain reasons as to why you think only the first
qualifies. Who ever made up the question and answer key included
the parenthetical for a reason. If only the first part would be
deemed correct, I wouldn't see any reason for the second part to
be in the key.
Gwen Lenker
I think you'll see that Aaron was the first to identify Morgan le Fay,
although he did it in the "shadows" thread, which he renamed to
Toughie #3, so if your newsreader sorts threads based on the
"References: " header, you might not have seen it in the correct
order.
There's something terribly wrong with the structure of that sentence,
but I don't have the spirit left to fix it.
Aaron J Dinkin
> On 11 Aug 2000 16:42:49 GMT, in alt.usage.english, Aaron J Dinkin
> <din...@fas.harvard.edu> put fingers to keyboard and typed:
>
>>mag...@totally-official.com wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 10 Aug 2000 18:48:19 GMT, in alt.usage.english,
>>> gale...@mail.com (Gwen Lenker) put fingers to keyboard and
>>> typed:
>>>
>>>>On Thu, 10 Aug 2000 18:44:01 GMT, gale...@mail.com (Gwen Lenker)
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Morgana, then, or Morgan le Fay, whatever you want to call her.
>>>>
>>>>"Outside the Arthurian stories, Morgan appears in the romance Ogier
>>>>the Dane as the lady of Avalon, and in Ariosot's Orlando Furioso as
>>>>the enchantress Morgana, living under a lake. She gives her name to
>>>>the Fata Morgana, a mirage seen in the Straits of Messina, once
>>>>attributed to her magic
>>>
>>> Folks, we have a winner.
>>
>>How so? I thought the correct answer was _Le Morte d'Arthur_.
>
> The answer given in the Totally Official answer key is:
>
> Morte d'Arthur (Morgan le Fay)
Well, if "Morgan le Fay" is accepted as a correct answer, I'd like to
point out that I gave the answer "Morgan le Fay" before Gwen did. I'd like
to, I say, but I see that Gwen has already done so - shaming me with her
display of noble sportsmanship, by the bye.
I will, of course, gladly abide by whatever the Panel decides.
One more thing: can I have been the last one to discover that Brewer's is
available in hypertext form? If I'm not, here it is:
http://www.bibliomania.com/Reference/PhraseAndFable/
mag...@totally-official.com
<din...@fas.harvard.edu> put fingers to keyboard and typed:
>mag...@totally-official.com wrote:
>
>> On 11 Aug 2000 16:42:49 GMT, in alt.usage.english, Aaron J Dinkin
>> <din...@fas.harvard.edu> put fingers to keyboard and typed:
>>
>>>mag...@totally-official.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 10 Aug 2000 18:48:19 GMT, in alt.usage.english,
>>>> gale...@mail.com (Gwen Lenker) put fingers to keyboard and
>>>> typed:
>>>>
>>>>>On Thu, 10 Aug 2000 18:44:01 GMT, gale...@mail.com (Gwen Lenker)
>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Morgana, then, or Morgan le Fay, whatever you want to call her.
>>>>>
>>>>>"Outside the Arthurian stories, Morgan appears in the romance Ogier
>>>>>the Dane as the lady of Avalon, and in Ariosot's Orlando Furioso as
>>>>>the enchantress Morgana, living under a lake. She gives her name to
>>>>>the Fata Morgana, a mirage seen in the Straits of Messina, once
>>>>>attributed to her magic
>>>>
>>>> Folks, we have a winner.
>>>
>>>How so? I thought the correct answer was _Le Morte d'Arthur_.
>>
>> The answer given in the Totally Official answer key is:
>>
>> Morte d'Arthur (Morgan le Fay)
>
>Well, if "Morgan le Fay" is accepted as a correct answer, I'd like to
>point out that I gave the answer "Morgan le Fay" before Gwen did. I'd like
I can't find an answer from you (in this thread) that gives
"Morgan le Fay" before Gwen's post. Can you give a deja pointer
or forward a copy of the post?
Happy to set things right...
Mark Brader
>> Well, if "Morgan le Fay" is accepted as a correct answer, I'd like to
"jc":
> I can't find an answer from you (in this thread) that gives
> "Morgan le Fay" before Gwen's post. Can you give a deja pointer
> or forward a copy of the post?
As Gwen said, it was in a different thread but with the Subject changed
to indicate this one -- see also the signature quote. Aaron answered
"Morgan le Fay" in article <8mus6s$4t3$5...@news.fas.harvard.edu>, 16 minutes
21 seconds before Gwen's answer (according to the Date lines, and assuming
that I've calculated correctly). This article is available from Deja at
<http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=656855099&fmt=raw>.
In a followup posting <8mv45q$7cd$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, which is available
at <http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=656897416&fmt=raw>, Sam Melton
posted the answer "Le Morte d'Arthur", and this was booked and recorded
by Garry Vass (thus implying that answers needn't be posted in the same
thread as the questions, *and* that "Morgan le Fay" was not a correct
answer) in article <gIHk5.1580$3T6....@monolith.news.easynet.net>,
available at <http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=656972983&fmt=raw>.
Hope this helps. As usual, delete "&fmt=raw" from each URL if you want
all the Deja links, decorations, and noise.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "Anyone who can handle a needle convincingly can make
m...@vex.net | us see a thread which is not there." --E.H. Gombrich
My text in this article is in the public domain.
Aaron J Dinkin
> On 12 Aug 2000 05:11:56 GMT, in alt.usage.english, Aaron J Dinkin
> <din...@fas.harvard.edu> put fingers to keyboard and typed:
>
>>Well, if "Morgan le Fay" is accepted as a correct answer, I'd like to
>>point out that I gave the answer "Morgan le Fay" before Gwen did. I'd like
>
> I can't find an answer from you (in this thread) that gives
> "Morgan le Fay" before Gwen's post. Can you give a deja pointer
> or forward a copy of the post?
Sorry, it wasn't in this thread. It had the subject line "[=SDC=] Toughie
#3 {was: Re: about shadow...}" and, as you can perhaps tell, was in the
thread that originated as "about shadow...". If it had to be in this
thread to receive credit, I will gladly cede the Touabire to Gwen.
Otherwise, the post is on Deja at
<http://x51.deja.com/[ST_rn=ps]/threadmsg_ct.xp?AN=656855099.1&mhitnum=4>. For
a time-stamp, look at "next in thread".
Sorry for the confusion.
Sam Melton
> As Gwen said, it was in a different thread but with the Subject
> changed to indicate this one -- see also the signature quote. Aaron
> answered "Morgan le Fay" in article
> <8mus6s$4t...@news.fas.harvard.edu> 16 minutes 21 seconds before
> Gwen's answer (according to the Date lines, and assuming that I've
> calculated correctly). This article is available from Deja at
> <http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=656855099&fmt=raw>.
>
> In a followup posting <8mv45q$7cd$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, which is
> available at <http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=656897416&fmt=raw>,
> Sam Melton posted the answer "Le Morte d'Arthur", and this was booked
> and recorded by Garry Vass (thus implying that answers needn't be
> posted in the same thread as the questions, *and* that "Morgan le
> Fay" was not a correct answer) in article
> <gIHk5.158...@monolith.news.easynet.net>, available at
> <http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=656972983&fmt=raw>.
>
> Hope this helps. As usual, delete "&fmt=raw" from each URL if you
> want all the Deja links, decorations, and noise.
This one has still not been scored. I feel a bit guilty about wanting
a scoring on this since all I did was latch onto the work of others to
provide the correct answer, but since Aaron's likely to win and these
will likely be my only points, I don't feel that guilty. On the other
hand, if the Toubarie for this is the difference between winning and
losing for Aaron, I'd say give it to him, since he did most of the
heavy lifting.
V/R
Sam Melton
Aaron J Dinkin
> This one has still not been scored. I feel a bit guilty about wanting
> a scoring on this since all I did was latch onto the work of others to
> provide the correct answer, but since Aaron's likely to win and these
> will likely be my only points, I don't feel that guilty. On the other
> hand, if the Toubarie for this is the difference between winning and
> losing for Aaron, I'd say give it to him, since he did most of the
> heavy lifting.
Well, really I'd say Garry did the heavy lifting on this one, since he posted a
message full of clues that pointed to looking up "Morgan le Fay" in Brewer's.
All I did was follow those directions and guess. You somehow came up with "Le
Morte d'Arthur", which to my mind is a far more elegant answer than "Morgan le
Fay?" even if in jc's estimation both are Totally Officially Correct. I'd
certainly be happy to take the Touabire, if Mike wants to give it to me
(especially if it's the difference between winning and losing), but I think you
probably deserve it more.
Mike Barnes
>Mark Brader wrote:
>
>> As Gwen said, it was in a different thread but with the Subject
>> changed to indicate this one -- see also the signature quote. Aaron
>> answered "Morgan le Fay" in article
>> <8mus6s$4t...@news.fas.harvard.edu> 16 minutes 21 seconds before
>> Gwen's answer (according to the Date lines, and assuming that I've
>> calculated correctly). This article is available from Deja at
>> <http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=656855099&fmt=raw>.
>>
>> In a followup posting <8mv45q$7cd$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, which is
>> available at <http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=656897416&fmt=raw>,
>> Sam Melton posted the answer "Le Morte d'Arthur", and this was booked
>> and recorded by Garry Vass (thus implying that answers needn't be
>> posted in the same thread as the questions, *and* that "Morgan le
>> Fay" was not a correct answer) in article
>> <gIHk5.158...@monolith.news.easynet.net>, available at
>> <http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=656972983&fmt=raw>.
>>
>> Hope this helps. As usual, delete "&fmt=raw" from each URL if you
>> want all the Deja links, decorations, and noise.
>
>a scoring on this since all I did was latch onto the work of others to
>provide the correct answer, but since Aaron's likely to win and these
>will likely be my only points, I don't feel that guilty. On the other
>hand, if the Toubarie for this is the difference between winning and
>losing for Aaron, I'd say give it to him, since he did most of the
>heavy lifting.
We decided that Aaron was the winner and I volunteered to post the
decision, after a short delay to allow all views to be expressed.
Somehow that posting got deleted from my "to do" list and it never got
done. Sorry for adding to the confusion. Anyway, the Touabire goes to
Aaron. Congratulations, Aaron. Thanks, everybody, for your patience.
--
Mike Barnes
John O'Flaherty
> Hope this helps. As usual, delete "&fmt=raw" from each URL if you want
> all the Deja links, decorations, and noise.
Now that is slick! (including it, not deleting it).
john
Mark Brader
> > all the Deja links, decorations, and noise.
>
> Now that is slick! (including it, not deleting it).
Thanks. There is also "&fmt=text", which is the same except that the result
is identified to the browser as text instead of RFC 822. Since they look
the same in lynx, I always use the shorter version.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "...one man's feature is another man's bug."
m...@vex.net --Chris Torek