OLDSCHOOL vs. NEWSCHOOL PLAYERS
Supernaut
I think first off your dealing with perspective here. When I think
oldschool I too think of players like Iommi,Blackmore,Gilmour,etc...
and newschool i'd rattle off VH,Murray/Smith{Maiden},Rhodes,etc..
Where would the "cutoff" point be??? When I think of albums released in
1980 you had H-N-H, Women and Children First, Maiden's First, and to me
these still seem like new records.I remember plunking down my 7.98 and
taking them home to play. But when I really think about it these
freakin' albums are 20 yrs old!!! Hard to believe its been that long.
So what is oldschool.... hell guys who burst on to the scene in the
early 80's are now 20 years vets. Players around in the 60's and 70's
there well on there way to collecting social security. Now to join this
oldschool group what's the criteria?? did you haveto be influential and
ground breaking??? or just have great chops??? I've been playing guitar
for close to 20 yrs does this make me an oldschool alumni???
As Captain Tripps said this is a never ending thread,oldschool players
depend on when you got into music. There are the obvious choices for
oldschool Hendrix, Iommi, Blackmore, Clapton , Page, Perry ,Schenker
etc.. but what about the players who are oldschool but lets say stuck in
detention and never achieved the status of the above mentioned. How
'bout Eddie Hazell, a fantastic guitar player,a firm grasp on melody,
the way he phrased his solos the man was phenomenal, but how many
people here have heard of this guy?? Just pick up a copy of "Maggot
Brain" and you'll be impressed. There is also a very hard to find cd
out there of Hazell's solo album {1975} that picks up right where
Hendrix left off and every time I listen to this I cant help thinking
what a crying shame that drugs destroyed this very talented player. What
about a guy who's known but in my book doesn't get the credit really due
to him.Speaking of Alex Lifeson, the king of the "less is more" school
of guitar playing. Lifeson was a painter and sound his medium. He knew
when to pick up that brush and beat you over head and when to do gentle
brush strokes to compliment the scenery. He's one of the most overlooked
players in the biz. I could go on and on ,what about the twin guitar
attack of Wishbone Ash, great stuff!!!! those guys played some amazing
harmonies. ,Billy Gibbons, kings of the pop blues licks, what about the
so called prog. guitarists,Steve Hackett,Robert Fripp,Steve Howe all
were innovative if not just short of bizarre at times.
How do you classify players like Jerry Cantrell , Kim Thyall,Satriani,
etc... these guys have been around for a long time now{ at least 10 yrs}
to me there newschool. All have left some kind of mark on the music
scene.
There are just to many variables here to really determine what is
oldschool and newschool. To be influential I don't believe should be the
ultimate defining criteria. Even some of the "Noschool" players like Ace
have been influential on players whether you deem this good or bad the
fact remains he influenced a generation players.
As time drags on will the '70's players migrate into the "mold-school"
and the '80's players become oldschool??, what about the 'late '80's and
'90's geetar pickers are they the newschool??? there are no easy answers
here and the line between the two is very,very, grey.
Any thoughts??
Peace,
Supernaut
Jim Collins
Halen rewrote it for the end of the 70's and the 80's. I think the main
difference in oldschool vs newschool is tapping. To quote Michael
Schenker (the quintessential oldschool axeman), If you want both hands
on the fretboard, why not just play a fucking piano? While a lot of
younger players have forsaken tapping and returned to their metal god
roots, I think the lines are clearly drawn, at least for the 70's and
80's.
Oldschool:
Blackmore
Iommi
Clapton
Beck
Page
Gilmour
Gallagher
Montrose
Trower
Bolin
Lifeson
Roth
Hendrix
Lee, Alvin
Box
etc
etc
etc
Newschool:
Van Halen
Rhoads
Lee,Jake
Beach
Sykes
Malmsteen
Moore,Vinnie
Freidman
Mustaine
Hammett
De Martini
Lynch
etc
etc
etc
BUT, where does a monster player like Gary Moore fit into the picture?
He started out in the early 70's as a typical blues based guitarist, but
developed into a shredder and a tapper as the decade wore on. Is Moore
old or new school? He's one that defied categorization (in my opinion),
as he continued to progress. At least until he did a 180 back to the
blues. Cheers, Jim C.
Wayne
Eddie V. ?
"Jim Collins" <meta...@idir.net> wrote in message
news:385572BE...@idir.net...
CLS
influences behind it. Old school guitarists (like Page, Hendrix, Clapton,
and Blackmore) were basically taking their traditional rock and blues
influences and adapting them to a new, heavier form of music. New school
guitarists were the first generation to craft a style that was distinctly
"metal". The new school guys, IMO, were the first generation to basically
skip that blues/rock building block that had been the foundation for so many
guitarists that came before them. YOu can really hear it in guys like Eddie
VH, Randy Rhoads, Jake E. Lee, Andy La Rocque, etc, etc. Metal guitar has
now become an entirely distinct form of playing. The modern metal
guitarists (particularly the European variety) may have never even owned a
blues, rockabilly, or traditional rock album. The 80's marked the first
time that you could really hear someone's solo (apart from the music) and
instantly know that it was a metal tune and not some electrified blues
number.
I'm not sure if any of this makes any sense to anyone else, but it works for
me.
BTW, regarding your Alex Lifeson comment. I've always thought that he and
Iommi were VERY similar in the way they were perceived. They are both
incredibly talented, yet have been ignored as lead players by the media.
Both are perceived by their fans to be geniuses, while the general populice
has never considered them to be great guitar players.
Crawdad
Supernaut <supe...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:385556FA...@pacbell.net...
Jim Collins
awsome guitarist. I grew weary of his blues direction rather quickly. I
wish he'd put together a real band and return to his rock roots. Cheers,
Jim C.
Beez...@aol.com wrote:
>
> Gary Moore does not do fret tapping with his right hand. To quote Gary
> from an 80's interview he says: any guitar player in a bar band can do
> it better then me, what I do is pull offs with my left hand to an open
> string.
Smokin' Dave
wrote:
>Oldschool vs. Newschool,
> I think first off your dealing with perspective here. When I think
>oldschool I too think of players like Iommi,Blackmore,Gilmour,etc...
>and newschool i'd rattle off VH,Murray/Smith{Maiden},Rhodes,etc..
>Where would the "cutoff" point be??? When I think of albums released in
>1980 you had H-N-H, Women and Children First, Maiden's First, and to me
>these still seem like new records.I remember plunking down my 7.98 and
>taking them home to play. But when I really think about it these
>freakin' albums are 20 yrs old!!! Hard to believe its been that long.
>
<snip>
>As time drags on will the '70's players migrate into the "mold-school"
>and the '80's players become oldschool??, what about the 'late '80's and
>'90's geetar pickers are they the newschool??? there are no easy answers
>here and the line between the two is very,very, grey.
>Any thoughts??
>
You're right, it's a matter of perspective. Actually, I think the name
"alt.rock-n-roll.metal.oldschool" is a bit too broad, because to
someone who grew up in the Eighties, the term "old school" may convey
images of Metallica, Iron Maiden, Twisted Sister, etc., while others,
who cut their teeth on Purple, Zep, Nugent, etc., automatically think
of these bands. And what about the music-lovers who grew up in the
Fifties and Sixties?
I'll inject another example here. Take the word "oldies". I grew up in
the Seventies, but still think of Fifties artists like Bobby Darin,
Bill Haley, Chuck Berry, and Dion, when hearing someone mention the
word "oldies". But I'll bet my bottom dollar that many listeners from
two or three generations later have never heard of these musicians,
and would consider anything from the Eighties as oldies.
I dunno, maybe whoever started this newsgroup had an evil streak and
imagined threads like "Here's Some Old School Music" and "No, THIS is
Old School Music", or "You're An Idiot if You Get Off on Eighties
Crap".
My opinion? Any metal before 1980 should be considered "old school",
and everything after that can go to hell, hehe . . .
Smokin' Dave
---------------------------------------------------------
Hell hath no coffee, no cigarettes.....
Smokin' Dave's Taxicab Diaries
http://www.smokindave.com
---------------------------------------------------------
Beez...@aol.com
Gary Moore does not do fret tapping with his right hand. To quote Gary
from an 80's interview he says: any guitar player in a bar band can do
it better then me, what I do is pull offs with my left hand to an open
string.
On Mon, 13 Dec 1999 16:27:10 -0600, Jim Collins <meta...@idir.net>
wrote:
>Supernaut wrote:
>>
>> Oldschool vs. Newschool,
>> I think first off your dealing with perspective here. When I think
>> oldschool I too think of players like Iommi,Blackmore,Gilmour,etc...
>> and newschool i'd rattle off VH,Murray/Smith{Maiden},Rhodes,etc..
>> Where would the "cutoff" point be??? When I think of albums released in
>> 1980 you had H-N-H, Women and Children First, Maiden's First, and to me
>> these still seem like new records.I remember plunking down my 7.98 and
>> taking them home to play. But when I really think about it these
>> freakin' albums are 20 yrs old!!! Hard to believe its been that long.
>>
>> As time drags on will the '70's players migrate into the "mold-school"
>> and the '80's players become oldschool??, what about the 'late '80's and
>> '90's geetar pickers are they the newschool??? there are no easy answers
>> here and the line between the two is very,very, grey.
>> Any thoughts??
>>
>> Peace,
>> Supernaut
Supernaut
CLS wrote:
> The thing that really separates new school from old school, IMO, is the
> influences behind it. Old school guitarists (like Page, Hendrix, Clapton,
> and Blackmore) were basically taking their traditional rock and blues
> influences and adapting them to a new, heavier form of music. New school
> guitarists were the first generation to craft a style that was distinctly
> "metal". The new school guys, IMO, were the first generation to basically
> skip that blues/rock building block that had been the foundation for so many
> guitarists that came before them.
I get the point here but.... isn't that what Clapton Hendrix and the lot did
with the blues,took it to a new level. As well as saying Iommi and a few of the
'70's guitarists tookwhat Hendrix did to anothor level. Wouldn't this just be
the natural succession? That each generation puts another block on the
foundation. Maybe if were talkin' true oldschool we might have to refer back to
the old Delta Blues players like Johnson,Wolf, and Lemon. This would be the true
foundation from witch all others have built on.
> YOu can really hear it in guys like Eddie
> VH, Randy Rhoads, Jake E. Lee, Andy La Rocque, etc, etc. Metal guitar has
> now become an entirely distinct form of playing. The modern metal
> guitarists (particularly the European variety) may have never even owned a
> blues, rockabilly, or traditional rock album.
True.. and maybe here is some of the problem with music today.Its like incest
the gene pool of riffing is getting very shallow. All of the above mentioned
players are technically great. I do like a lot of there playing but they just
don't do it for me. I never went crazy over Rhodes He played killer stuff,he was
tight,has some tasty chops,but to me at times seemed very cold. Maye heres our
definition of oldschool. Maybe its the guy who remembers to play with feeling
and emotion. They guy who knows when to play a zillion notes or just let one
ring out. Newschool would be the player who employs all the tricks, forsakes the
melody of the tune to play his impressive lightning fast apreggios.Has that
whammy bar surgically implanted into his palm for endless "dive bombs". could it
really be this easy of a definition??
> The 80's marked the first
> time that you could really hear someone's solo (apart from the music) and
> instantly know that it was a metal tune and not some electrified blues
> number.
>
> I'm not sure if any of this makes any sense to anyone else, but it works for
> me.
>
> BTW, regarding your Alex Lifeson comment. I've always thought that he and
> Iommi were VERY similar in the way they were perceived. They are both
> incredibly talented, yet have been ignored as lead players by the media.
> Both are perceived by their fans to be geniuses, while the general populice
> has never considered them to be great guitar players.
Good comparison. Thats up there with the only song Thin Lizzy ever did was Boys
are Back.
Peace,
Supernaut
>
>
> Crawdad
>
> Supernaut <supe...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> news:385556FA...@pacbell.net...
Supernaut
Smokin' Dave wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Dec 1999 12:28:43 -0800, Supernaut <supe...@pacbell.net>
> wrote:
>
> >Oldschool vs. Newschool,
> > I think first off your dealing with perspective here. When I think
> >oldschool I too think of players like Iommi,Blackmore,Gilmour,etc...
> >and newschool i'd rattle off VH,Murray/Smith{Maiden},Rhodes,etc..
> >Where would the "cutoff" point be??? When I think of albums released in
> >1980 you had H-N-H, Women and Children First, Maiden's First, and to me
> >these still seem like new records.I remember plunking down my 7.98 and
> >taking them home to play. But when I really think about it these
> >freakin' albums are 20 yrs old!!! Hard to believe its been that long.
> >
> <snip>
>
> >As time drags on will the '70's players migrate into the "mold-school"
> >and the '80's players become oldschool??, what about the 'late '80's and
> >'90's geetar pickers are they the newschool??? there are no easy answers
> >here and the line between the two is very,very, grey.
> >Any thoughts??
> >
>
> You're right, it's a matter of perspective. Actually, I think the name
> "alt.rock-n-roll.metal.oldschool" is a bit too broad, because to
> someone who grew up in the Eighties, the term "old school" may convey
> images of Metallica, Iron Maiden, Twisted Sister, etc., while others,
> who cut their teeth on Purple, Zep, Nugent, etc., automatically think
> of these bands. And what about the music-lovers who grew up in the
> Fifties and Sixties?
>
> I'll inject another example here. Take the word "oldies". I grew up in
> the Seventies, but still think of Fifties artists like Bobby Darin,
> Bill Haley, Chuck Berry, and Dion, when hearing someone mention the
> word "oldies". But I'll bet my bottom dollar that many listeners from
> two or three generations later have never heard of these musicians,
> and would consider anything from the Eighties as oldies.
>
Give Smokin' Dave a cigar !!!!! Exactly my point. I used to sell guitars
for a living. I would come into contact with all sorts of kids. When the talk
moved from guitars to music you'd be surprised at how many kids {12-18 yrs
old} would refer to bands like Zeppelin as the band who's song you coulnd't
play in the guitar shop in Waynes World, or that Ozzy was in a band in the
70's. See there puzzeld face as you tell them there was a singer in Van
Halen before Hagar or that Hagar started in the early '70's. I too think of
Bill Haley and the Commets,Everly Bros., and the like as "oldies".
>
> I dunno, maybe whoever started this newsgroup had an evil streak and
> imagined threads like "Here's Some Old School Music" and "No, THIS is
> Old School Music", or "You're An Idiot if You Get Off on Eighties
> Crap".
>
> My opinion? Any metal before 1980 should be considered "old school",
> and everything after that can go to hell, hehe . . .
>
So your opinion is... the cutoff point should be '80. A few people are
saying maybe '78 when Halen first emerged. I would say that my cut off point
would be '83. It would seem to me that after that year all the bands that
followed were carbon copies and record companies were spittin out "metal"
bands like model-t's.{ now there were excpetions to this rule}
Peace,
Supernaut
DonJoe
I think the main
>difference in oldschool vs newschool is tapping.
huh? I think you are off base here. Although my point is certainly
argueable, the three last guitar kings are/were:
Jimi hendrix. He really invented the distorted guitar sound people
emulated. He played, performed and lived over the edge. He was a true
innovator and his licks are still alive in today's music.
Eddie Van Halen: He was the first to "two hand tap" at least that I
know of. He was simply incredible with his solos. His guitar sound was also
very modern for the time. Even today, people want the "brown sound" of his
setup.
Yngwie Malsteen: Some like him, some don't, but the truth is, this guy
came along and probably had more copiers than Hendrix and EVH. He created
the Bach-rock style. Many guitarist had done smaller versions of it before,
like Rhoads, but he took guitar playing truly to the next level and he taps
very rarely. I honestly think he is the greatest player, technically and
inventively speaking of all time. He took guitar to a new level and no one
else has come along since that truly awes people. I think his technical
virtuosty may make it take years before someone just goes and blows his
socks off.
Bryant
Supernaut
Jim Collins wrote:
> Obviously just as Hendrix rewrote the book on 70's guitar playing, Van
> Halen rewrote it for the end of the 70's and the 80's. I think the main
> difference in oldschool vs newschool is tapping. To quote Michael
> Schenker (the quintessential oldschool axeman), If you want both hands
> on the fretboard, why not just play a fucking piano? While a lot of
> younger players have forsaken tapping and returned to their metal god
> roots, I think the lines are clearly drawn, at least for the 70's and
> 80's.
Okay... well its seems we have a few platforms here for OS vs. NS. Smokin'
Dave proposes that its a time line,Crawdad is sayin' maybe its the music each
"school" was building on and Jim surmises that Hendrix built the house and
Eddie decorated it or the line is drawn by contribution.
If it is a year.. what year... I proposed "83{?} as my watermark year. This is
just so subjective.
If by influences... again isn't this just the natural course of music .Each
generation piling on top of what the previous one did?
If by contribution... Wouldn't there be a ton of subcatagories here. Hendrix
did change the face of things, and Eddie yet again makes people look at
playing from a different angle. What about Iommi? he drew up blue-prints of
his own and changed things and Blackmore creator of the "hard rock hit" and
the riff played around world{ what was a git. player first song he learned
before this came out??} and I could pull off your list and site more examples.
Any more thoughts....
Peace
Supernaut
> Supernaut wrote:
> >
> > Oldschool vs. Newschool,
> > I think first off your dealing with perspective here. When I think
> > oldschool I too think of players like Iommi,Blackmore,Gilmour,etc...
> > and newschool i'd rattle off VH,Murray/Smith{Maiden},Rhodes,etc..
> > Where would the "cutoff" point be??? When I think of albums released in
> > 1980 you had H-N-H, Women and Children First, Maiden's First, and to me
> > these still seem like new records.I remember plunking down my 7.98 and
> > taking them home to play. But when I really think about it these
> > freakin' albums are 20 yrs old!!! Hard to believe its been that long.
> >
> > As time drags on will the '70's players migrate into the "mold-school"
> > and the '80's players become oldschool??, what about the 'late '80's and
> > '90's geetar pickers are they the newschool??? there are no easy answers
> > here and the line between the two is very,very, grey.
> > Any thoughts??
> >
> > Peace,
> > Supernaut
DShezza
>came along and probably had more copiers than Hendrix and EVH. He created
>the Bach-rock style
maybe so, but when he first came along he was the clone of Blackmore...
>I honestly think he is the greatest player, technically and inventively
speaking of all time
I think he is impressive as a player but he doesn't do much with all that
flash. His songwriting is poor - at least Hendrix and Van Halen could craft a
memorable tune to wrap their skills around.
DS
"Mind, Body, Heart & Soul...we've got Rock & Roll...and there's nothing they
can do"
CLS
Yeah, that was pretty much my point. With new school guitarists there
seemed to finally come a time where those blues influences were not really
being handed down. You could hear the blues influences in Blackmore, Iommi,
Clapton, Hendrix. With guys like Eddie VH, Randy Rhoads, etc, etc, it's
really hard to hear those influences. Metal is pretty new. Guys like
Clapton, Hendrix, Blackmore, Iommi, Page, etc, were on the cutting edge of
the transition. EVH, IMO, kind of completed that transition and created a
style that metal could finally claim was it's own.
Well, modern metal guitar doesn't really have a lot to do with emotion, IMO.
In the blues-based players, the leads were supposed to add some texture and
whatnot. In metal, it became about showing your chops, as far as I can
tell.
Crawdad
Jonathan
smoki...@smokindave.com (Smokin' Dave) wrote:
>
> You're right, it's a matter of perspective. Actually, I think the name
> "alt.rock-n-roll.metal.oldschool" is a bit too broad, because to
> someone who grew up in the Eighties, the term "old school" may convey
> images of Metallica, Iron Maiden, Twisted Sister, etc., while others,
> who cut their teeth on Purple, Zep, Nugent, etc., automatically think
> of these bands.
It was supposed to be broad. None of these bands are off-topic.
> And what about the music-lovers who grew up in the
> Fifties and Sixties?
>
> I'll inject another example here. Take the word "oldies". I grew up in
> the Seventies, but still think of Fifties artists like Bobby Darin,
> Bill Haley, Chuck Berry, and Dion, when hearing someone mention the
> word "oldies". But I'll bet my bottom dollar that many listeners from
> two or three generations later have never heard of these musicians,
> and would consider anything from the Eighties as oldies.
But I think it's fairly clear that metal as a genre in and of itself
started around the late 60s. Of course everyone brings influences - but
it was the emergence of Zep, Purple and Sabbath that created a genre. So
in that sense oldschool is not misleading. Where it ends is completely
up to the tastes of the posters - personally I'd put it at about
'83 when metal split into a zillion stupid subgenres. But music is
timeless, dates are pretty irrelevant except as rough guidelines. I
think it's clear to anyone who stumbles across ARRMO what the interests
of the regular posters are and what's likely to be on/off topic.
> I dunno, maybe whoever started this newsgroup had an evil streak and
> imagined threads like "Here's Some Old School Music" and "No, THIS is
> Old School Music", or "You're An Idiot if You Get Off on Eighties
> Crap".
Have you seen any threads like this?? I don't think so!!
On the contrary we tried to set a tone where pretty much anything was
on-topic if you thought it was. We haven't had a flamewar on musical
taste (or anything else for that matter) which is quite astounding given
the volume of traffic here already.
There is no good/bad music just like/dislike music. Words such as 'crap'
and 'sucks' always carry an implicit 'in my opinion' tag.....
......except for JLT, Tony Martin and Trouble. But there's exceptions to
every rule right?
Jonathan
Jonathan
<eod...@bobcat.com> wrote:
> Jim Collins wrote in message
> I think the main
> >difference in oldschool vs newschool is tapping.
>
> huh? I think you are off base here. Although my point is certainly
> argueable, the three last guitar kings are/were:
Well I think you're off base - you're not responding to the point, you
started a completely different one.
> Yngwie Malsteen: Some like him, some don't, but the truth is, this guy
> came along and probably had more copiers than Hendrix and EVH. He created
> the Bach-rock style. Many guitarist had done smaller versions of it
> before,
> like Rhoads, but he took guitar playing truly to the next level and he
> taps
> very rarely. I honestly think he is the greatest player, technically and
> inventively speaking of all time.
Oh please! All Malmsteen did was copy the classical influences of guys
like Blackmore, Schenker and Roth - replace good songwriting skills and
feel/emotion with superfast scale patterns (stolen from Paganini) and
bring it all to a much smaller audience. There's nothing remotely
inventive there, it's just finger exercises IMO.
He is the court jester not a king.
Jonathan
Jonathan
<supe...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> CLS wrote:
>
> > The thing that really separates new school from old school, IMO, is the
> > influences behind it. Old school guitarists (like Page, Hendrix,
> > Clapton,
> > and Blackmore) were basically taking their traditional rock and blues
> > influences and adapting them to a new, heavier form of music. New
> > school
> > guitarists were the first generation to craft a style that was
> > distinctly
> > "metal". The new school guys, IMO, were the first generation to
> > basically
> > skip that blues/rock building block that had been the foundation for so
> > many
> > guitarists that came before them.
<snip>
>
> > YOu can really hear it in guys like Eddie
> > VH, Randy Rhoads, Jake E. Lee, Andy La Rocque, etc, etc. Metal guitar
> > has
> > now become an entirely distinct form of playing. The modern metal
> > guitarists (particularly the European variety) may have never even
> > owned a
> > blues, rockabilly, or traditional rock album.
> Maye heres our definition of oldschool. Maybe its the guy who remembers to play with
> feeling and emotion. They guy who knows when to play a zillion notes or just let
> one ring out. Newschool would be the player who employs all the tricks,
> forsakes the melody of the tune to play his impressive lightning fast apreggios.Has
> that whammy bar surgically implanted into his palm for endless "dive bombs".
> could it really be this easy of a definition??
Yes - though I don't think those guys gave up on melody and feel/emotion
completely, they became far less important though.
I think Crawdad was right on the money....the guy is an idiot savant:)
Jonathan
Wayne
"DonJoe" <eod...@bobcat.com> wrote in message
news:OEn54.919$UL3....@eagle.america.net...
> "You're An Idiot if You Get Off on Eighties
> >Crap".
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> >: The 80s were not just Bon Jovi, Metallica and Scorpions. The 80's
was
> the pinnacle for metal. Grow some hair and buy a real guitar.
>
> Bryant
>
> Yeah, but its not "cool" to like ANYTHING from the eighties.
>
CLS
Jonathan <corn...@NOSPAMsou.edu> wrote in message
news:cornick.2-F206A...@news-server.columbus.rr.com...
> >
> > > The thing that really separates new school from old school, IMO, is
the
> > > influences behind it. Old school guitarists (like Page, Hendrix,
> > > Clapton,
> > > and Blackmore) were basically taking their traditional rock and blues
> > > influences and adapting them to a new, heavier form of music. New
> > > school
> > > guitarists were the first generation to craft a style that was
> > > distinctly
> > > "metal". The new school guys, IMO, were the first generation to
> > > basically
> > > skip that blues/rock building block that had been the foundation for
so
> > > many
> > > guitarists that came before them.
>
> >
> > > YOu can really hear it in guys like Eddie
> > > VH, Randy Rhoads, Jake E. Lee, Andy La Rocque, etc, etc. Metal guitar
> > > has
> > > now become an entirely distinct form of playing. The modern metal
> > > guitarists (particularly the European variety) may have never even
> > > owned a
> > > blues, rockabilly, or traditional rock album.
>
to play with
> > feeling and emotion. They guy who knows when to play a zillion notes or
just let
> > one ring out. Newschool would be the player who employs all the tricks,
> > forsakes the melody of the tune to play his impressive lightning fast
apreggios.Has
> > that whammy bar surgically implanted into his palm for endless "dive
bombs".
> > could it really be this easy of a definition??
>
> completely, they became far less important though.
>
> I think Crawdad was right on the money....the guy is an idiot savant:)
>
> Jonathan
Remind me to slap you if we ever meet.
Crawdad
CLS
Jonathan <corn...@NOSPAMsou.edu> wrote in message
> In article <386d9e62....@news.pipeline.com>,
> smoki...@smokindave.com (Smokin' Dave) wrote:
>
> >
> > You're right, it's a matter of perspective. Actually, I think the name
> > "alt.rock-n-roll.metal.oldschool" is a bit too broad, because to
> > someone who grew up in the Eighties, the term "old school" may convey
> > images of Metallica, Iron Maiden, Twisted Sister, etc., while others,
> > who cut their teeth on Purple, Zep, Nugent, etc., automatically think
> > of these bands.
>
> It was supposed to be broad. None of these bands are off-topic.
Is this man a plant from alt.config?
>
> > And what about the music-lovers who grew up in the
> > Fifties and Sixties?
> >
> > I'll inject another example here. Take the word "oldies". I grew up in
> > the Seventies, but still think of Fifties artists like Bobby Darin,
> > Bill Haley, Chuck Berry, and Dion, when hearing someone mention the
> > word "oldies". But I'll bet my bottom dollar that many listeners from
> > two or three generations later have never heard of these musicians,
> > and would consider anything from the Eighties as oldies.
>
> But I think it's fairly clear that metal as a genre in and of itself
> started around the late 60s. Of course everyone brings influences - but
> it was the emergence of Zep, Purple and Sabbath that created a genre. So
> in that sense oldschool is not misleading. Where it ends is completely
> up to the tastes of the posters - personally I'd put it at about
> '83 when metal split into a zillion stupid subgenres. But music is
> timeless, dates are pretty irrelevant except as rough guidelines. I
> think it's clear to anyone who stumbles across ARRMO what the interests
> of the regular posters are and what's likely to be on/off topic.
Is Trouble on topic?
Crawdad
Captain Tripps
CLS wrote:
>
>Is Trouble on topic?
>
>Crawdad
>
>
Not really.. But "Trubble" is ;)
--
++Captain Tripps++
to reply simply remove YOUR CLOTHES...
CLS
Jonathan <corn...@NOSPAMsou.edu> wrote in message
Look, I don't particularly like Malmsteen, but I think you oversimply
things. You make it sound like what he did was a logical progression from
Roth and Blackmore. I disagree.
I remember when Yngwie hit the scene. Man, it was like a powder keg went
off. It was sooooooooo different from anything we had heard before
(including Roth and Blackmore) that it just floored us. It was like it came
from outerspace. It was that unique. Trying to sound like Paganini might
sound cliche now, but for the mid-80's it was just fucking unreal to even
attempt such a thing. This was no logical progression. This was a giant
leap (maybe not a good leap, but a leap nonetheless) that pretty much
boggled the mind. Suddenly, every kid on the block was trying to catch up.
They could a lot of Rhoads.....a lot of Hendrix.....a lot of VH.....and a
lot of Purple. They coudn't even begin to touch the Yngwie stuff. From
that moment on, it really changed things. He was the first guy to bring
cold-blooded, tactical discipline to rock guitar playing. Nobody really
knew what virtuosity (in the schooled, clinical sense) was until Yngwie.
Blackmore had hinted at it, but Yngwie took it to Julliard. When you listen
to his first two albums in the context of what had come before him, well,
they are just incredible. The man may have no soul, etc, etc, etc, but he
had AMAZING physical dexterity and discipline. I don't care if you
practiced scales all damn day, that guy was born with the dexterity that few
humans have. Particularly for European guitarists, he just pretty much
turned the world upside down. You can hear his influence everywhere. To
me, that's pretty much the only test of influence. You can hear the impact.
Let me close by saying that I ain't much of an Yngwie fan. I respect his
immense talent and his huge influence, but I don't really like listening to
him all that much. For better or for worse, the man had a HUGE impact on
metal guitar. Really, it can't be overstated. Along with Hendrix,
Blackmore, and Eddie VH, he's one of the most influential *lead* players in
hard rock history. He borrowed a bit from Blackmore and maybe
Roth........but those guys only hinted at classical influences. They
dabbled in it. Blackmore and Roth had borrowed things from their
predecessors. What Yngwie did was take it to an entirely new level.
Crawdad
Jonathan
<C_...@altavista.com> wrote:
> Jonathan <corn...@NOSPAMsou.edu> wrote in message
Remind me to slap you if we ever meet.
Jonathan
Jonathan
<C_...@altavista.com> wrote:
> Jonathan <corn...@NOSPAMsou.edu> wrote in message
Well I disagree too. It's always the way with music - the innovators
innovate, and the copiers extract the things they understand
(classical scales) drop the stuff that they can't
reproduce (feel/emotion/good songs) and add their own gimmick (speed).
Malmsteen is just Blackmore with soem Rhoads speeded up. I've always
heard him that way - it never suprised me. Taking speed guitar
playing to its extreme was bound to happen IMO.
> Trying to sound like Paganini
> might
> sound cliche now, but for the mid-80's it was just fucking unreal to even
> attempt such a thing.
Malmsteen - Blackmore is like Paganini - Bach. Gimmickry replacing
true genius.
> I don't care if you
> practiced scales all damn day, that guy was born with the dexterity that
> few
> humans have.
So was Michael Jordan, that doesn't make him an innovative
guitar player.
> Particularly for European guitarists, he just pretty much
> turned the world upside down. You can hear his influence everywhere.
you can? If you listen to other obscure irrelevant metal bands
I guess.
> Let me close by saying that I ain't much of an Yngwie fan. I respect his
> immense talent and his huge influence, but I don't really like listening
> to
> him all that much. For better or for worse, the man had a HUGE impact on
> metal guitar. Really, it can't be overstated. Along with Hendrix,
> Blackmore, and Eddie VH, he's one of the most influential *lead* players
> in
> hard rock history. He borrowed a bit from Blackmore and maybe
> Roth........but those guys only hinted at classical influences. They
> dabbled in it. Blackmore and Roth had borrowed things from their
> predecessors. What Yngwie did was take it to an entirely new level.
Just not a higher level.
Jonathan
CLS
Jonathan <corn...@NOSPAMsou.edu> wrote in message news:cornick.2-
> >
> > Look, I don't particularly like Malmsteen, but I think you oversimply
> > things. You make it sound like what he did was a logical progression
> > from
> > Roth and Blackmore. I disagree.
>
> Well I disagree too. It's always the way with music - the innovators
> innovate, and the copiers extract the things they understand
> (classical scales) drop the stuff that they can't
> reproduce (feel/emotion/good songs) and add their own gimmick (speed).
You are aware that you could make this argument with just about
anyone.....including Blackmore? Like everyone else who didn't learn to play
guitar in a vacuum, he is a product of his influences. The guys who
worshipped Chuck Berry might have said the same thing about Ritchie.
>
> Malmsteen is just Blackmore with soem Rhoads speeded up. I've always
> heard him that way - it never suprised me. Taking speed guitar
> playing to its extreme was bound to happen IMO.
Maybe so. At any rate, he was the first to do it. That makes him an
innovator. The trend started with him. Maybe someone would have created
the lightbulb eventually, but Edison gets the credit. Such is life.
>
> > Trying to sound like Paganini
> > might
> > sound cliche now, but for the mid-80's it was just fucking unreal to
even
> > attempt such a thing.
>
> Malmsteen - Blackmore is like Paganini - Bach. Gimmickry replacing
> true genius.
Well, I certainly like Blackmore more than Malmsteen. However, I won't slag
Malmsteen in the process. Let me repeat, I'M NOT AN YNGWIE FAN. It may
just be classical scales and speed to you, but the bottom line is that, for
it's time, it was pretty much revolutionary. If it was just gimmickry, I
can't imagine that it would have caused the stir that it did. The guy's
first album came out of nowhere and wound up in almost every kid's bedroom
(who was into metal). Seriously, it shook my neighborhood...and my
highschool....and my friends up.
>
> > I don't care if you
> > practiced scales all damn day, that guy was born with the dexterity that
> > few
> > humans have.
>
> So was Michael Jordan, that doesn't make him an innovative
> guitar player.
It makes him an innovative basketball player. Bad, bad analogy.
>
> > Particularly for European guitarists, he just pretty much
> > turned the world upside down. You can hear his influence everywhere.
>
> you can? If you listen to other obscure irrelevant metal bands
> I guess.
Well, if you consider that metal, as a mainstream genre, is pretty
irrelevent, you could see my point. You don't like the guitarists that he
influenced. I don't like them either. However, that doesn't mean that
there's not a bazillion guys out there trying to do what he did. That, to
me, is making an impact (even if you don't like the impact). Everything
that I've heard that isn't oldschool metal is rife with Malmsteen influence
(super-shredding using scales, the injection of classic arrangements, etc).
>
> > Let me close by saying that I ain't much of an Yngwie fan. I respect
his
> > immense talent and his huge influence, but I don't really like listening
> > to
> > him all that much. For better or for worse, the man had a HUGE impact
on
> > metal guitar. Really, it can't be overstated. Along with Hendrix,
> > Blackmore, and Eddie VH, he's one of the most influential *lead* players
> > in
> > hard rock history. He borrowed a bit from Blackmore and maybe
> > Roth........but those guys only hinted at classical influences. They
> > dabbled in it. Blackmore and Roth had borrowed things from their
> > predecessors. What Yngwie did was take it to an entirely new level.
>
> Just not a higher level.
Man, you're getting all on Hittman on us :)
Crawdad
Jonathan
<C_...@altavista.com> wrote:
>
> Man, you're getting all on Hittman on us :)
By not giving credit where credit isn't due?:)
I don't see Malmsteen as an originator - what he did
was completely inevitable IMO. Looking at the history of
hard rock I don't see any major leap when he arrived on
the scene. He was mentioned in the same breath as Hendrix and
Van Halen??
Major jumps in how the guitar was used in (hard) rock music IMNSHO:
1. Chuck Berry (mayeb otehrs but I don't really know that era)
2. Beatles/Stones/Who
3. Hendrix
4. Iommi/Blackmore/Page
5. Van Halen
Sorry I just never found anything innovative in Malmsteen besides
making speed all important. The guy thinks he's Ritchie Blackmore -
he's played with JLT, Bonnet and Dio, he makes or plays on Purple
related tribute albums all the time, he dresses like Ritchie, uses
the same guitars - and plays the same notes only faster and without
any feel.
Jonathan
Finnut
>
> Jonathan wrote:
> >>He borrowed a bit from Blackmore and maybe Roth........
> >> but those guys only hinted at classical influences. They
dabbled in it.
> >> Blackmore and Roth had borrowed things from their predecessors.
> >> What Yngwie did was take it to an entirely new level.
> > Just not a higher level.
> Man, you're getting all on Hittman on us :)
>
> Crawdad
Hehe. Hittman. Hehe. No matter what you think of Yngwie, the truth is
that the guy was very influential player for the kids in the middle
eighties. Joe Satriani who is also a guitar teacher said that, when
Yngwie came on board many kids were lining up to ask stuff about
arpeggios and shit, which was amazing to Joe cuz most people had only
heard about the old pentatonic scales (also known as the evil
pentagram scale, created by the voodoo worshippers in Mississippi
swamps -- this is a fact, cuz Bob said so!). The players in the
eighties worshipped Iommi, Blackmore, Schenker, Roth, Clapton, Nugent
and Page - many of the players of the nineties worship Sid
Vicious....er....Rhoads, Yngwie and Eddie Van Halen.
--
#Finnished**
Jonathan
captain-trip...@home.com (Captain Tripps) wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Dec 1999 09:33:26 -0500, in alt.rock-n-roll.metal.oldschool
> CLS wrote:
>
> >
> >Is Trouble on topic?
> >
> >Crawdad
> >
> >
> Not really.. But "Trubble" is ;)
I just got a Trubble update from Bill S. Here's what's in the
pipeline from the band:
Trubble with Hubble - A concept album about the ill-fated telescope. Bill
has persuaded his old buddy Leonard to do some talk-overs.
Bubble Trubble - An album of 70s glam rock covers. The first 20 copies
come with a special stick on beard called the 'Trubble stubble'.
Dubble Trubble - Live album with guest appearances from Tony Martin on
some Sabbath classics like 'Feels good to Me' and 'Anno Mundi'.
Treble Trubble - Special Japanese version of DT with bonus disk titled
'if you thought that sucked, get a load of this'. The highlight is Bill,
Tony and JLT sharing lines on Purple's classic 'Too Much is not Enough'.
The tour of Alaska went well. The drummer got frostbite on his fingers
but it actually improved his playing. They probably played to 37 people
all told - would have been more but apparently everyone was 'snowed in'.
Jonathan
Jonathan
<san...@I-want-free-porn-spam-baby-saunalahti.fi> wrote:
> CLS wrote:
> >
> > Jonathan wrote:
>
> > >>He borrowed a bit from Blackmore and maybe Roth........
> > >> but those guys only hinted at classical influences. They
> dabbled in it.
> > >> Blackmore and Roth had borrowed things from their predecessors.
> > >> What Yngwie did was take it to an entirely new level.
>
> > > Just not a higher level.
>
> > Man, you're getting all on Hittman on us :)
> >
> > Crawdad
>
>
> Hehe. Hittman. Hehe. No matter what you think of Yngwie, the truth is
> that the guy was very influential player for the kids in the middle
> eighties.
ok....if you guys insist. Truth be told I basically have very little
'metal' from bands who started in the mid 80s or later. Off the top
of my head I have some Metallica, Megadeth, GNR, Savatage, Monster
Magnet, Kings X, Soundgarden and Alice in Chains - not much Malmsteen in
there. Metal pretty much died then (for me) - personally I don't hear
anything innovative or interesting in the metal scene beyond that. I
don't believe I was gullible enough to buy an Iced Earth
album.......yawn.
As far as more recent guitar based music - I'll take NIN, KMFDM, Sister
Machine Gun, Oasis, Levellers, Kula Shaker, Ministry, The Verve and any
other number of non-metal bands. Not saying that all or any of this
is particularly innovative but I'd far rather listen to them than
Dream Theater, Iced Earth, Blind Guardian, or any Shrapnel
wankery etc etc etc
ok Malmsteen was innovative....he innovated metal right into a
technical, cold, yawnfest devoid of any soul:)
Jonathan
CLS
Jonathan <corn...@NOSPAMsou.edu> wrote in message
>
>
> I don't see Malmsteen as an originator - what he did
> was completely inevitable IMO.
Why did it so sound so completely weird when it first came out? I certainly
wasn't expecting it. He shook up the scene every bit as much as Randy
Rhoads did. I'm not that happy about it, but it's true. It was the
strangest shit we had ever had in the context of metal.
>Looking at the history of
> hard rock I don't see any major leap when he arrived on
> the scene. He was mentioned in the same breath as Hendrix and
> Van Halen??
Look, I ain't a big fan of the guy. I hope we've established that. Do l
like him as much as Hendrix and Van Halen? No. Do I think he was
ultimately as important as either? No. Do I think he influenced a
bazillion kids and bands? Yes. I've heard (much to my chagrin) the
results. The guy changed the way people approached metal guitar. Nobody
shredded like that before Yngwie. I'm not that happy about the results (I
hate shredders), but his impact, IMO, is undeniable.
>
> Major jumps in how the guitar was used in (hard) rock music IMNSHO:
>
> 1. Chuck Berry (mayeb otehrs but I don't really know that era)
Yup.
> 2. Beatles/Stones/Who
How music was played.....or guitar itself? I agree with the former, but
don't really think the latter applies.
> 3. Hendrix
Definitely.
> 4. Iommi/Blackmore/Page
Iommi changed how people played riffs. Blackmore had a HUGE impact on lead
playing. Page fell somewhere in between the two.
> 5. Van Halen
>
> Sorry I just never found anything innovative in Malmsteen besides
> making speed all important.
I think he's only innovative in the sense that he was the first guy to try
to Paganini and extremely difficult classical scales in the context of
metal. Ritchie dabbled in it, but he never really explored it. Malmsteen
really brought a new technical and disciplined aspect to metal guitar. I
never heard anybody even attempt that kind of stuff, except *maybe*
Blackmore.......but even then it was only a small hint of what was to come.
>The guy thinks he's Ritchie Blackmore -
> he's played with JLT, Bonnet and Dio, he makes or plays on Purple
> related tribute albums all the time, he dresses like Ritchie, uses
> the same guitars - and plays the same notes only faster and without
> any feel.
This is, of course, completely relevant to hating the man, but not very
relevant to looking at his impact.
Crawdad
CLS
Jonathan <corn...@NOSPAMsou.edu> wrote in message
> In article <835r7d$rjc$1...@tron.sci.fi>, "Finnut"
> <san...@I-want-free-porn-spam-baby-saunalahti.fi> wrote:
>
> > CLS wrote:
> > >
> > > Jonathan wrote:
> >
> > > >>He borrowed a bit from Blackmore and maybe Roth........
> > > >> but those guys only hinted at classical influences. They
> > dabbled in it.
> > > >> Blackmore and Roth had borrowed things from their predecessors.
> > > >> What Yngwie did was take it to an entirely new level.
> >
> > > > Just not a higher level.
> >
> > >
> >
> >
> > Hehe. Hittman. Hehe. No matter what you think of Yngwie, the truth is
> > that the guy was very influential player for the kids in the middle
> > eighties.
>
> ok....if you guys insist. Truth be told I basically have very little
> 'metal' from bands who started in the mid 80s or later. Off the top
> of my head I have some Metallica, Megadeth, GNR, Savatage, Monster
> Magnet, Kings X, Soundgarden and Alice in Chains - not much Malmsteen in
> there. Metal pretty much died then (for me) - personally I don't hear
> anything innovative or interesting in the metal scene beyond that. I
> don't believe I was gullible enough to buy an Iced Earth
> album.......yawn.
Except for King Diamond, MF, some Danzig, and a few other things, there is
nothin' but slim pickin's for post-1986 stuff in my collection.
Crawdad
Ned Flanders
>
> Sorry I just never found anything innovative in Malmsteen besides
> he's played with JLT, Bonnet and Dio, he makes or plays on Purple
> related tribute albums all the time, he dresses like Ritchie, uses
> the same guitars - and plays the same notes only faster and without
> any feel.
Well, Yngwie certainly weighs more that Ritchie now.
I liked Yngwie's stuff before he started putting out the same album over
and over. But I tend to not be very critical which gives me the
opportunity to enjoy a much larger catalog than you "Nothing good has been
made since blah blah blah" dudes. Which sounds like my father when he says
things like, "There hasn't been a good movie made since 1943!" etc. etc...
Jeezapete!
Anyway, I was really into Yngwie when his first couple albums were
released. I saw him live a couple times. The first time I saw him he was
spectacular but I'm easily impressed so I tend to enjoy myself a lot more
than you whinyassed critical bastards. However, I saw him open for Triumph
and he was little more than noise. Rik Emmit (spelling?) totally blew him
away. He even played along with a laser generated violin during a solo
piece. I always wondered if that was a stab at Yngwie but I don't think
Rik is that kind of a person. He was/is a truly phenomenal guitarist. I
just wish that he would of leaned toward more evil sounding music. Then he
would of ruled!
Ned "Opinions suck" Flanders
--
Come worship with us before its to late...
http://members.home.net/nedflanders/
CLS
Ned Flanders <nedfl...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3856BF46...@home.com...
> Jonathan wrote:
> >
> > Sorry I just never found anything innovative in Malmsteen besides
> > making speed all important. The guy thinks he's Ritchie Blackmore -
> > he's played with JLT, Bonnet and Dio, he makes or plays on Purple
> > related tribute albums all the time, he dresses like Ritchie, uses
> > the same guitars - and plays the same notes only faster and without
> > any feel.
>
> Well, Yngwie certainly weighs more that Ritchie now.
Ritchie's got the moustache, though. Can't nothin' top that 'stache.
>
> I liked Yngwie's stuff before he started putting out the same album over
> and over. But I tend to not be very critical which gives me the
> opportunity to enjoy a much larger catalog than you "Nothing good has been
> made since blah blah blah" dudes. Which sounds like my father when he
says
> things like, "There hasn't been a good movie made since 1943!" etc. etc...
> Jeezapete!
You open-minded cats are all the same. You suck.
>
> Anyway, I was really into Yngwie when his first couple albums were
> released. I saw him live a couple times. The first time I saw him he was
> spectacular but I'm easily impressed so I tend to enjoy myself a lot more
> than you whinyassed critical bastards. However, I saw him open for
Triumph
> and he was little more than noise. Rik Emmit (spelling?) totally blew him
> away. He even played along with a laser generated violin during a solo
> piece. I always wondered if that was a stab at Yngwie but I don't think
> Rik is that kind of a person. He was/is a truly phenomenal guitarist. I
> just wish that he would of leaned toward more evil sounding music. Then
he
> would of ruled!
Yngwie's first two albums are pretty decent decent slabs of Euro metal. His
shredding is cliche now, but back then it was pretty fucking amazing.
However, even looking past the gratuitous wankery, those albums had some
really good riffs, structures, and GREAT singing (love Jeff Scott Soto).
Personally, I think Yngwie killed his own career with his Nugent-esque
attitude. It made people hate him. When people hate you, they have a hard
time looking past your faults.
Crawdad
Raddion
>Maye heres our
>definition of oldschool. Maybe its the guy who remembers to play with feeling
>and emotion. They guy who knows when to play a zillion notes or just let one
>ring out. Newschool would be the player who employs all the tricks, forsakes
>the
>melody of the tune to play his impressive lightning fast apreggios.Has that
>whammy bar surgically implanted into his palm for endless "dive bombs". could
>it
>really be this easy of a definition??
>
That's what I was trying to say way back when I suggested the turning point was
when Van Halen played his first arena show. I don't think "oldschool"
guitarists *can* play with both hands on the fretboard, and conversely
"newschool" guitarists are just too self-absorbed to let the other musicians
shine along with them. It's horrible, really, what some of these guys do to an
otherwise great song...
I hate the "two finger fretboard" method of guitar playing, I submit that it
is an invalid form of musical expression, and should be relegated to the status
of "sampling", or even "lip synching".
RADDION
Finnut
> Personally, I think Yngwie killed his own career with his
> Nugent-esque attitude
>
> Crawdad
You know Nugent didn't just inspire a certain metal guitarist/singer to
play an instrument and shove it up his ass, Nugent also had some effect
on the guy's face appearance. Or where else James Hetfield got the idea
for those ridiculous looking sideburns?
--
#Finnished**
Captain Tripps
Raddion wrote:
I can't agree with that statement at all man.
Tapping technique doesn't always have to sound like "Eruption".
When EVH did this it was virtually unknown to most people. It was
certainly a great way for him to make his mark, but I think that it's
been done to death.
Have you ever seen someone who knew how to do something with it? How
about Jeniffer Batten or Stanley Jordan? Jeff Watson from "Night
Ranger" used to use 8 fingers and pull off something with so many
overlapping harmonies that it sounded like a "guitar party". Even he
used it sparingly though, to me that is an effective use of this
technique rather than the typical triad pounding bullshit that so many
guys started doing in lieu of a thought out solo. I saw Jeff Healey at
the cozy ole' Living Room (but he didn't see me :P), he plays with his
fret hand over the neck and often uses a two-handed approach on the
fretboard. Of course the guy is completely blind and sat on a stool
singing while he played like this, but without looking at him you'd
never know anything of that sort - When I did watch him, I
half-expected the tired old 3-note, "shifting root" atypical tapping,
but there was none of that just some mean blues!
<RANT>
I say that anything that still sounds like "Eruption" should be taken
out back and shot. Eruption was a one-off, defacto standard riff for
this method but for some reason every music store wannabe hack
guitarist seems to feel like a big man if he can pull it off. It's
truly a sign of an unorignal approach. Shit, even Yngwie in his
loosely constructed live guitar solos used to have a boring segment of
this sort of wankery. I can't believe how it became a spacefiller for
so many guitarists but let's not condemn the technique for these
reasons. Condemn the uninventive musicians who rely on something so
primitive and dull to carry them through solo after solo.
</RANT>
"Just my $00.02"
DonJoe
> I hate the "two finger fretboard" method of guitar playing, I submit
that it
>is an invalid form of musical expression, and should be relegated to the
status
>of "sampling", or even "lip synching".
> RADDION
Are you nuts? If you don't like it that is one thing, but to compare it to
something that takes almost no talent to do? How dare you. You simply can't
accept anything that is different than what your narrow mind perceives as
"real" metal. Sometimes you amaze me, Rad.
: / Bryant
Captain Tripps
I kinda' figure it was the Waylon Jennings influence.. I hear Hetfield
is quite the fan of shitkickin' music..
"Just a good 'ole boy"
Raddion
...>I submit
>that it
>>is an invalid form of musical expression, and should be relegated to the
>status
>>of "sampling", or even "lip synching".
>> RADDION
>
> Are you nuts?
No, I'm clinically depressed.
>If you don't like it that is one thing, but to compare it to
>something that takes almost no talent to do? How dare you.
I do not like it, and I stand by my statement. Crap, rap, tap... it's all the
same!!! How dare I, indeed!
>You simply can't
>accept anything that is different than what your narrow mind perceives as
>"real" metal. Sometimes you amaze me, Rad.
>
Bryant, Bryant, Bryant...
If you ask me, it's listeners like you and Capt. Tripps who are the
narrowminded ones. Ask yourself why you really like the sound of a guitar neck
being used as a trampoline. Why? Well probably because you grew up hearing
everybody with a guitar trying to do it, and so it became a part of your
fabric, of your conciousness, of your 'id'... Sure, throw in a couple of Van
Halen concerts, and the brainwashing is complete! Ka-blinka! Ka-blinka!
Ka-blinka! You guys have been suckered in, and you don't even know it!
But I came in when guitar players still had to have something inside, some
piece of themselves to add to a song that could help it to endure as a classic.
Please, name a ten-fingered- hammer-on circus song that I'll be hearing 30
years from now. Yeah, you can't, see? Me, narrowminded? I'm just focused,
that's all...
RADDION
"The greatest guitar song ever is War Pigs"
Captain Tripps
Raddion wrote:
Raddion how did I get included in the set of narrowminded ones? Did
you read my response to this same message? You just condemned an
entire guitar playing technique whole-heartedly! Is that an open
minded attitude?
Not to be argumentative but please don't "pull rank" based solely on
your personal opinion. I made my statement as a musician as well as a
fan, and essentially agreed with you that it is an often over used
method. I also pointed out however, that if used tastefully it can be
a nice addition to a guitarists bag of tricks. That's fair and open
minded as far as I'm concerned. Surely you can't expect to convince
either of us that we've been "hoodwinked".. With all due respect, what
makes your blatantly biased statement valid while you accuse us of
being narrow-minded? You lost me somewhere, this entire response you
made to Bryant made very little sense. We are both here because we
like "oldschool" metal, I certainly don't need any lessons in why my
musical taste is "wrong"; in fact I resent your accusation that I'm
narrow-minded. I thought we agreed as the founders of this group that
we wouldn't have this sort of thing starting around here... What
gives?
Raddion
I was just goofing around, I didn't really mean that you guys were
narrowminded... but at the same time I was offering a caricature of my true
feelings regarding newschool guitar licks. So... it was meant to be a satire
with substance, but obviously I missed the mark. Do I get a detention or what?
Sometimes I don't leave enough 'I'm joking' clues, I guess. Well, half joking
;)
RADDION
Captain Tripps
Raddion wrote:
>Awwww.......
>I was just goofing around, I didn't really mean that you guys were
>narrowminded... but at the same time I was offering a caricature of my true
>feelings regarding newschool guitar licks. So... it was meant to be a satire
>with substance, but obviously I missed the mark. Do I get a detention or what?
>Sometimes I don't leave enough 'I'm joking' clues, I guess. Well, half joking
>;)
> RADDION
No problem (You bastard!)
Do you really hate the two-handed stuff that much? I'm not easily
impressed with it, but at times I've heard people do some amazing
things using this style and it can really sound cool!
"I guess 'sweep-picking' is out of the question?"
Finnut
Raddion wrote:
> Awwww.......
> I was just goofing around, I didn't really mean that
> you guys were narrowminded... but at the same time
> I was offering a caricature of my true feelings regarding newschool
> guitar licks. So... it was meant to be a satire with substance, but
> obviously I missed the mark. Do I get a detention or what?
> Sometimes I don't leave enough 'I'm joking' clues, I guess.
> Well, half joking
> ;)
> RADDION
Damn! The thing what always bugged me about serial killers was that
they left so many clues to the Scotland Yard and such, and got caught
before they could kill all mankind. And smileys should be forbid by
the law, they reveal way too much! I hate those little :)'s and
whatever!
But on the sidenote: the guy who posted 669 pornographic posts to
Captain's mailbox has a bit strange sense of humor.
--
#Finnished**
Captain Tripps
Finnut wrote:
>
>Raddion wrote:
>> Awwww.......
>> I was just goofing around, I didn't really mean that
>> you guys were narrowminded... but at the same time
>> I was offering a caricature of my true feelings regarding newschool
>> guitar licks. So... it was meant to be a satire with substance, but
>> obviously I missed the mark. Do I get a detention or what?
>> Sometimes I don't leave enough 'I'm joking' clues, I guess.
>> Well, half joking
>> ;)
>> RADDION
>
>Damn! The thing what always bugged me about serial killers was that
>they left so many clues to the Scotland Yard and such, and got caught
>before they could kill all mankind. And smileys should be forbid by
>the law, they reveal way too much! I hate those little :)'s and
>whatever!
>
Smiley's soften the effect of a good sarcastic message! Now I don't
get personally offended when people have a differing musical opinion
than I do, I was just letting Raddion know that I took some exception
and was gearing up for a full-on assault in defense of *good* use of
said guitar trickery. It's hard to maintain that spark of retaliatory
passion once the Smiley's show up though.
Take this example:
Mick Mars sucks shit!
(pretty succinct and insulting right?)
but adding a Smiley changes everything:
Mick Mars sucks shit ;)
(too happy-go-lucky, this just doesn't pack the same wallop as the
first one)
Of course this could also be taken to mean "Mick Mars sucks shit with
a big smile on his face" which is an entirely different story
altogether. I will make a concious effort to avoid using Smiley's
unless they are completely valid and necessary.
>But on the sidenote: the guy who posted 669 pornographic posts to
>Captain's mailbox has a bit strange sense of humor.
And undoubtedly a very small penis!
"See, no Smiley!"
Raddion
>
>No problem (You bastard!)
>
>Do you really hate the two-handed stuff that much? I'm not easily
>impressed with it, but at times I've heard people do some amazing
>things using this style and it can really sound cool!
>
previously mentioned. The best Randy Rhoads soloing I can think of is "Goodbye
To Romance" which has very little if any of the two-handed stunt show. No, I
realize I am a little "older" school in my thinking, but you'll either have to
put up with me or kick me out (smiley face here).
>"I guess 'sweep-picking' is out of the question?"
>
What is sweep picking, some more 'fancy Dan' stuff???
Raddion
Jim Antares
>Raddion wrote:
>> Awwww.......
>> I was just goofing around, I didn't really mean that
>> you guys were narrowminded... but at the same time
>> I was offering a caricature of my true feelings regarding newschool
>> guitar licks. So... it was meant to be a satire with substance, but
>> obviously I missed the mark. Do I get a detention or what?
>> Sometimes I don't leave enough 'I'm joking' clues, I guess.
>> Well, half joking
>> ;)
>> RADDION
>
>Damn! The thing what always bugged me about serial killers was that
>they left so many clues to the Scotland Yard and such, and got caught
>before they could kill all mankind. And smileys should be forbid by
>the law, they reveal way too much! I hate those little :)'s and
>whatever!
>
>Captain's mailbox has a bit strange sense of humor.
And why *only* 669 posts? Has some non-Clevelanders been listening to 'CSB?
Where's that detective…
-Jim
"I am Homer of Borg. Prepare to be ...ooooh donuts!"
Jim Antares
captain-trip...@home.com (Captain Tripps) posted, roasted, toasted
in the following:
>On 19 Dec 1999 17:38:02 GMT, in alt.rock-n-roll.metal.oldschool
>
>>Awwww.......
>>I was just goofing around, I didn't really mean that you guys were
>>narrowminded... but at the same time I was offering a caricature of my
>true
>>feelings regarding newschool guitar licks. So... it was meant to be a satire
>>with substance, but obviously I missed the mark. Do I get a detention or
>what?
>>Sometimes I don't leave enough 'I'm joking' clues, I guess. Well, half
>joking
>>;)
>> RADDION
>
>
>Do you really hate the two-handed stuff that much? I'm not easily
>impressed with it, but at times I've heard people do some amazing
>things using this style and it can really sound cool!
>
Not to mention string skips <shudder>.
Geezergirl
story is told again and again and it's as simple as looking at the post
to find the number? Silliness, i tell ya.
Peace, Geezer "you wish" Girl
Jim Antares wrote:
>
> Sani wrote:
> >Raddion wrote:
> >> Awwww.......
> >> I was just goofing around, I didn't really mean that
> >> you guys were narrowminded... but at the same time
> >> I was offering a caricature of my true feelings regarding newschool
> >> guitar licks. So... it was meant to be a satire with substance, but
> >> obviously I missed the mark. Do I get a detention or what?
> >> Sometimes I don't leave enough 'I'm joking' clues, I guess.
> >> Well, half joking
> >> ;)
> >> RADDION
> >
> >Damn! The thing what always bugged me about serial killers was that
> >they left so many clues to the Scotland Yard and such, and got caught
> >before they could kill all mankind. And smileys should be forbid by
> >the law, they reveal way too much! I hate those little :)'s and
> >whatever!
> >
> >But on the sidenote: the guy who posted 669 pornographic posts to
> >Captain's mailbox has a bit strange sense of humor.
>
> And why *only* 669 posts? Has some non-Clevelanders been listening to 'CSB?
> Where's that detective…
>