Recovering the body (OotP Spoilers)
Smiley
fate of Sirus' body. It's never made clear whether Lupin knew Sirius was
dead because he knew that he couldn't have survived that spell, or whether
he knew because that archway was some sort of dangerous portal or something
that would swallow the body and kill him instantly even if he survived the
spell.
The book hinted that the archway was dangerous, but it never revealed
exactly why, and I'm really surprised that Harry never asked. Some people
in this newsgroup seem to be saying that Sirius' body was never recovered,
but it never says so in the book.
It's never made clear the exact reason Lupin was dragging Harry away from
the curtain. Could be that the body was still there and he just didn't want
Harry to see Sirius in a twisted position from his agonizing death throes.
Could also be that the archway itself was dangerous and he was trying to
prevent Harry from going behind the curtain and in the process killing
himself as well.
And there's no mention as to whether the body was recoverable or not.
Roger T.
"Smiley" <smi...@uvgotemail.com> wrote in message
news:vgbvqks...@corp.supernews.com...
> There's one thing that the book never explained clearly, and that was the
> fate of Sirus' body. It's never made clear whether Lupin knew Sirius was
> dead because he knew that he couldn't have survived that spell, or whether
> he knew because that archway was some sort of dangerous portal or
something
> that would swallow the body and kill him instantly even if he survived the
> spell.
Exactly. Lack of a corpse leaves the way clear for Sirius to return. :-)
--
Cheers
Roger T.
http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra/
Smiley
"Roger T." <roge...@highspeedplus.com> wrote in message
news:54bfed3912121616...@grapevine.islandnet.com...
>
> Exactly. Lack of a corpse leaves the way clear for Sirius to return. :-)
But we don't know that there's no corpse - the book never said.
Roger T.
I can only repeat.
Exactly. Lack of a corpse leaves the way clear for Sirius to return.
Tim Bruening
Smiley wrote:
I expect someone to go "Accio Sirius Black!".
Smiley
> I can only repeat.
>
> Exactly. Lack of a corpse leaves the way clear for Sirius to return.
And you're still making as little sense as you did before. We don't know
that there's a lack of a corpse!
Roger T.
"Smiley"
>
> "Roger T."
>> Lack of a corpse leaves the way clear for Sirius to return.
> > I can only repeat.
> >
> > Exactly. {Snip] Lack of ...............................
> And you're still making as little sense as you did before. We don't know
> that there's a lack of a corpse!
Of course we don't, that's why what I wrote makes complete sense.
If, in the next book, there's a corpse, then Sirius is dead.
If, in the next book, there is still no corpse, then the way is once again
clear for Sirius to come back.
The author can use this ploy as often as she wishes.
Conan Doyle did it with Sherlock Holmes when he "fell to his death" at the
Reichenbach Falls only to come back to life again.
It's an old trick. Movies do it all the time.
Smiley
>
> Of course we don't, that's why what I wrote makes complete sense.
>
> If, in the next book, there's a corpse, then Sirius is dead.
>
> If, in the next book, there is still no corpse, then the way is once again
> clear for Sirius to come back.
>
> The author can use this ploy as often as she wishes.
>
> Conan Doyle did it with Sherlock Holmes when he "fell to his death" at the
> Reichenbach Falls only to come back to life again.
>
> It's an old trick. Movies do it all the time.
Okay, so what you're telling me, then, is that you believe Mrs. Rowling
hadn't yet made up her mind as to whether Sirius was actually dead by the
time she finished writing OotP and wanted to leave the door open just in
case?
Roger T.
"Smiley"
> Okay, so what you're telling me, then, is that you believe Mrs. Rowling
> hadn't yet made up her mind as to whether Sirius was actually dead by the
> time she finished writing OotP and wanted to leave the door open just in
> case?
Give Smiley a gold star. :-)
I don't think that, but sure, it's an option. She's left the door open.
Smiley
>
> Give Smiley a gold star. :-)
>
> I don't think that, but sure, it's an option. She's left the door open.
If you don't think that, then maybe you could tell me what exactly you do
think. It seems to me that the only reason for her not to mention the body
at all in the book would be if she hadn't decided whether he was really dead
or not. If she's decided that he really is dead for good, then there's no
reason for her not to "close the door" (so to speak) and mention that his
body had been recovered. If she's decided that he's going to return in a
future book, then it seems she should at least mention in the book something
along the lines of having one of the characters say: "Due to the special
properties of the arch, we were unable to retrieve Sirius' body"
Roger T.
"Smiley"
> "Roger T."
> >
> > Give Smiley a gold star. :-)
> >
> > I don't think that, but sure, it's an option. She's left the door open.
>
> If you don't think that, then maybe you could tell me what exactly you do
> think.
You seem to be making more of this than is really required.
I don't know what the author is thinking or planning. I wouldn't be so
presumptuous.
I have no opinion one way or the other as to whether Sirius is alive or
dead.
All I'm saying is "Lack of a corpse leaves the way clear for Sirius to
return"
It's really quite simple.
Rick
Of course there's a reason -- it builds suspense for the next two books.
Seems fairly obvious.
JB
> There's one thing that the book never explained clearly, and that was the
> fate of Sirus' body. It's never made clear whether Lupin knew Sirius was
> dead because he knew that he couldn't have survived that spell, or whether
> he knew because that archway was some sort of dangerous portal or
something
> that would swallow the body and kill him instantly even if he survived the
> spell.
I agree the book wasn't clear. I expect its so it can be fleshed out in
other books.
Personally I get the impression that its some kind of gateway through which
you don't ever return. Even if it had been a killing type curse in the heat
of battle nobody could have been sure Sirius had taken it full blast or
whatever, and yet Lupin knew instantly that its the end of him.
Jule
Pun not intended, of course. :)
Roger T.
"Jule"
> > I don't think that, but sure, it's an option. She's left the door open.
>
> Pun not intended, of course. :)
Only just got it. :-)
Well done.
Keven K Pinder
Sorry guys, Sirius is g.o.n.e....gone.
First the name of the room, The Death Chamber. Its pretty evident that
this is some obsolete wizard's execution chamber. The stacked stands that
suggest witness seating.
Second, the literary allusion. The Veil is a long established metaphor for
the gateway to death.
"piercing the veil" etc.
Whether you can go to the veil and converse with the others on the other
side is an open question.
Jane Grey
> fate of Sirus' body. It's never made clear whether Lupin knew Sirius was
> dead because he knew that he couldn't have survived that spell, or whether
> he knew because that archway was some sort of dangerous portal or
something
> that would swallow the body and kill him instantly even if he survived the
> spell.
>
> The book hinted that the archway was dangerous, but it never revealed
> exactly why, and I'm really surprised that Harry never asked. Some people
> in this newsgroup seem to be saying that Sirius' body was never recovered,
> but it never says so in the book.
the spell was only a stunning spell but it was fatal as it had the effect of
causing Siruis
to fall beyond the veil. The archway acts as a one-way path to the place
souls go when they die. the interesting thing is Siruis' /body/ has also
gone there...
>
> It's never made clear the exact reason Lupin was dragging Harry away from
> the curtain. Could be that the body was still there and he just didn't
want
> Harry to see Sirius in a twisted position from his agonizing death throes.
> Could also be that the archway itself was dangerous and he was trying to
> prevent Harry from going behind the curtain and in the process killing
> himself as well.
Lupin knew should harry follow Siruis in, harry too would be dead.
>
> And there's no mention as to whether the body was recoverable or not.
IMO as things stand it can't be recovered, nothing returns from Death...but
JKR has said nothing on it so we might be told otherwise in a later book.
--
Jane Grey
"He kept messing up his hair," said Harry in a pained voice.
Siruis and Lupin laughed.
"I'd forgotten he used to do that," Siruis said affectionately.
Jane Grey
oh I really wish I can believe that Siruis will come back from the 'dead'
but JKR would not have cried had Siruis not really died.
--
Jane Grey
"You - wait," he panted, staring up at James with an expression of purest
loathing, "you - wait!"
"Wait for what?" said Sirius coolly. "What're you going to do, Snivelly,
wipe your nose on us?"
DarkMagic
"Jane Grey" <lady...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:be7o6r$mol$1...@sparta.btinternet.com...
>
> "Roger T." <roge...@highspeedplus.com> wrote in message
> news:66d23c2af51cb4df...@grapevine.islandnet.com...
> >
> > "Smiley"
> > >
> > > "Roger T."
> >
> > >> Lack of a corpse leaves the way clear for Sirius to return.
> >
> >
> > > > I can only repeat.
> > > >
> > > > Exactly. {Snip] Lack of ...............................
> >
> > > And you're still making as little sense as you did before. We don't
> know
> > > that there's a lack of a corpse!
> >
> > Of course we don't, that's why what I wrote makes complete sense.
> >
> > If, in the next book, there's a corpse, then Sirius is dead.
> >
> > If, in the next book, there is still no corpse, then the way is once
again
> > clear for Sirius to come back.
> >
> > The author can use this ploy as often as she wishes.
> >
> > Conan Doyle did it with Sherlock Holmes when he "fell to his death" at
the
> > Reichenbach Falls only to come back to life again.
> >
> > It's an old trick. Movies do it all the time.
> >
>
> oh I really wish I can believe that Siruis will come back from the 'dead'
> but JKR would not have cried had Siruis not really died.
>
It's possible, just possible now, that Rowling threw out that comment about
crying when she killed off the character she was going to kill as a red
herring. If, and again it's a big if, Sirius were to come back somehow in a
future book, that would be a huge, huge, plot point spoiler and Rowling
would want to cast the reader's suspicions elsewhere in order to preserve
surprise.
It's also possible that she cried because the scene she had to write for
Harry in Dumbledore's office was so intense and sad. Just because she might
know Sirius is coming back, Harry does not. Therefore his grief is in no
way lessoned.
>
Jane Grey
"DarkMagic" <slnosp...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:ktOdnXXupZU...@comcast.com...
>
>
> "Jane Grey" <lady...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> news:be7o6r$mol$1...@sparta.btinternet.com...
> >
> >
> > oh I really wish I can believe that Siruis will come back from the
'dead'
> > but JKR would not have cried had Siruis not really died.
> >
> It's possible, just possible now, that Rowling threw out that comment
about
> crying when she killed off the character she was going to kill as a red
> herring. If, and again it's a big if, Sirius were to come back somehow in
a
> future book, that would be a huge, huge, plot point spoiler and Rowling
> would want to cast the reader's suspicions elsewhere in order to preserve
> surprise.
>
> It's also possible that she cried because the scene she had to write for
> Harry in Dumbledore's office was so intense and sad. Just because she
might
> know Sirius is coming back, Harry does not. Therefore his grief is in no
> way lessoned.
> >
oh i hadn't thought of it like that!! :)
wa-hey! he might come back! :)
but then again... didn't JKR always say once dead, alyways dead? ;(
oh, i just don't know anymore..anyone have strong opinion either way?
Smiley
>
> the spell was only a stunning spell but it was fatal as it had the effect
of
> causing Siruis
> to fall beyond the veil. The archway acts as a one-way path to the place
> souls go when they die. the interesting thing is Siruis' /body/ has also
> gone there...
You sound awfully sure of yourself. How can you be so sure?
Smiley
>
> oh I really wish I can believe that Siruis will come back from the 'dead'
> but JKR would not have cried had Siruis not really died.
You wouldn't cry at having to write in such pain for Harry to cope with,
even though you knew he was going to be back later?
Jane Grey
Well JKR earlier on in the battle mentioned that 'stupify' is a red jolt of
light and that doesn't kill. I'm not 100% percent sure about where the veil
leads too but I get my thoery from the fact that when some dies they are
said to go 'beyond the veil' .... in magic world it seems apt that this
phrase has a more literal meaning too! Lupin says that Siruis is 'gone', and
when harry says we can pull him back Lupin says no; this tells me it's a
one-way trip...
..just guessing but I really can't think what else the veil thing could be
all about...
Jane Grey
I s'pose I would have done but JKR said "I had re-written the death and that
was it, it was final the person was defiantely dead and I went into the
kitchen crying..." or something along those lines. Just the way she talks
about it screams out to me that he is dead and staying that way. She's also
said in many interviews that magic can't bring poeple back, once someone
dies in potterverse they don't come back....
Elaine
but that doesn't mean he can't continue to play a part in Harry's life.
James & Lily have appeared twice to Harry and they've been dead for almost
15 years.
Elaine
Barry Gray
"Smiley" <smi...@uvgotemail.com> wrote:
But, body or not, the Book is actually quite explicit on the main point:
Nearly Headless Nick, who should know about these things, states that Sirius
has gone to the place from which there is no return.
--
Barry Gray
http://www.barrygray.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
Beth Baxter
I didn't read it like that. He has been told that Sirius is dead. He knows
that people like Sirius don't usually stick around once they're dead.
That's the extent of his knowledge.
Beth Baxter
Kjetil
> It seems to me that the only reason for her not to mention the body at
> all in the book would be if she hadn't decided whether he was
> really dead or not. If she's decided that he really is dead for good,
> then there's no reason for her not to "close the door" (so to speak)
> and mention that his body had been recovered.
Writers aren't required to mention everything that they don't have
a specific reason for leaving out, really... If you want one, though:
The book's nearly eight hundred pages long and is already threatening
the habitat of the Ewoks. Do you have a specific reason to have to really
show that he's dead, in addition to what you've already done, apart from
saving some electrons on usenet? =)
-Kjetil
Smiley
> a specific reason for leaving out, really... If you want one, though:
>
> The book's nearly eight hundred pages long and is already threatening
> the habitat of the Ewoks. Do you have a specific reason to have to really
> show that he's dead, in addition to what you've already done, apart from
> saving some electrons on usenet? =)
Just that it should be made clear so that we know where things stand.
Hope Munro Smith
Aren't most books made from recycled pre-consumer paper nowadays?
Jane Grey
"Smiley" <blahblah> wrote in message
news:vgromui...@corp.supernews.com...
But it IS clear that Siruis died. The archway is a oneway path to the place
souls go when we die. Know that phrase 'passed through the veil' for anyone
that has died? well is it so diffeicult to believe that in the magical world
that phrase has a more literal meaning? Siruis did not die in a conventinal
way but he (including his body as well as his soul) fell stright to the
death place, as it's a one-way trip his body is gone for good -there can be
no way to retrive it.
Smiley
>
> But it IS clear that Siruis died. The archway is a oneway path to the
place
> souls go when we die. Know that phrase 'passed through the veil' for
anyone
> that has died? well is it so diffeicult to believe that in the magical
world
> that phrase has a more literal meaning? Siruis did not die in a
conventinal
> way but he (including his body as well as his soul) fell stright to the
> death place, as it's a one-way trip his body is gone for good -there can
be
> no way to retrive it.
The veil definitely appears to be what killed Sirius, but it is NOT clear
exactly what that veil is. It was never explained in the book therefore
your statement is mostly conjecture.