What's Happened to Joe Bangert?
Tom Dier
A couple of months ago I posted a new thread to the group about a Joe
Bangert who was listed as a witness at the Winter Soldier's hearings.
The Joe Bangert who has posted to awv previously never responded.
I thought that it would be an opportunity, if it was the same Joe
Bangert, for him to address the WSI issue.
There are those of us who have not discounted the Winter Soldier
hearings.
On the other hand, there are those who have questions about the
testimony, due to a lack of cross examination.
Joe, if you are out there, would you mind lending your experience to
this forum and tell us about it?
Tom Dier 1/52 Americal Division 1970
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Bill Clarke
things we haven't agreed on was Robert Strange McNamara's book and the
Winter Soldier "Investigation". I'm proud that we have always been civil in
our disagreement and I think we both agree that things were not "Peachy" in
Vietnam despite John Wayne claiming we think otherwise.
I have no doubt that out of all the WSI witnesses there were some pure of
heart and honest in their testimony. I also have no doubt that most were
phony lairs there for the show and this includes the sponsors of the dog and
pony show. There are simply too many proven bad apples in the barrel to buy
it.
I don't attempt to change your mind about this Tom because your mind is
probably much better than mine. But I do urge you to use caution before
believing much about what came out of the WSI.
Bill Clarke
F Troop, 17th Cav
Tom Dier <win...@greene.xtn.net> wrote in message
news:3ad798f7...@news.xtn.net...
Edward Combs
http://lists.village.virginia.edu/sixties/HTML_docs/Resources/Primary/Winter
_Soldier/Units/1st_Marine_roster.html
http://lists.village.virginia.edu/sixties/HTML_docs/Resources/Primary/Winter
_Soldier/WS_entry.html
http://lists.village.virginia.edu/sixties/HTML_docs/Resources/Primary/Winter
_Soldier/WS_05_1Marine.html
Joe Bangert, 22, Sgt. (E-5), VMO-6, PMAG-39, 1st Marine Air Wing, 1st Marine
Division (October 1968 to October 1969)
BANGERT. My name is Joe Bangert. I'm a Philadelphia resident. I enlisted in
the Marine Corps for four years in 1967. I went to Vietnam in 1968. My unit
in Vietnam was Marine Observation Squadron Six with the First Marine Air
Wing and my testimony will cover the slaughter of civilians, the skinning of
a Vietnamese woman, the type of observing our squadron did in Vietnam and
the crucifixion of Vietnamese either suspects or civilians in Vietnam.
MODERATOR. Mr. Bangert, there's an incident here where you found crucified
bodies hanging on barbed wire fences and in the same incident you witnessed
South Vietnamese civilians shot without provocation on Highway 1. Could you
go into this and kind of see how they are related?
BANGERT. I can cover a couple of these at the same time. The first day I got
to Vietnam I landed in Da Nang Air Base. From Da Nang Air Base I took a
plane to Dong Ha. I got off the plane and hitchhiked on Highway 1 to my
unit. I was picked up by a truckload of grunt Marines with two company grade
officers, 1st Lts.; we were about 5 miles down the road, where there were
some Vietnamese children at the gateway of the village and they gave the old
finger gesture at us. It was understandable that they picked this up from
the GIs there. They stopped the trucks--they didn't stop the truck, they
slowed down a little bit, and it was just like response, the guys got up,
including the lieutenants, and just blew all the kids away. There were about
five or six kids blown away and then the truck just continued down the hill.
That was my first day in Vietnam. As far as the crucified bodies, they
weren't actually crucified with nails, but they would find VCs or something
(I never got the story on them) but, anyway, they were human beings,
obviously dead, and they would take them and string them out on fences, on
barbed wire fences, stripped, and sometimes they would take flesh wounds,
take a knife and cut the body all over the place to make it bleed, and look
gory as a reminder to the people in the village.
Also in Quang Tri City I had a friend who was working with USAID and he was
also with CIA. We used to get drunk together and he used to tell me about
his different trips into Laos on Air America Airlines and things. One time
he asked me would I like to accompany him to watch. He was an adviser with
an ARVN group and Kit Carson's. He asked me if I would like to accompany him
into a village that I was familiar with to see how they act. So I went with
him and when we got there the ARVNs had control of the situation. They
didn't find any enemy but they found a woman with bandages. So she was
questioned by six ARVNs and the way they questioned her, since she had
bandages, they shot her. She was hit about twenty times. After she was
questioned, and, of course, dead, this guy came over, who was a former
major, been in the service for twenty years, and he got hungry again and
came back over working with USAID, Aid International Development. He went
over there, ripped her clothes off and took a knife and cut, from her vagina
almost all the way up, just about up to her breasts and pulled her organs
out, completely out of her cavity, and threw them out. Then, he stopped and
knelt over and commenced to peel every bit of skin off her body and left her
there as a sign for something or other and that was those instances.
MODERATOR. Okay, there were American officers present when this happened
or...
BANGERT. There were two super-secret. I know they were field grade officers,
who were with MACV in Quang Tri Province in the area. They knew about it.
MODERATOR. There are many different types of ways that we have heard of
people being mutilated, of villagers being killed, but there is one way that
affects the people afterwards. They don't physically shoot them or hurt them
at the moment and this is the use of chemicals. And Mr. Bangert, I think,
has a good example here where he shows twenty deformed babies resulting from
Agent Orange Defoliant Spray. Could you tell us what Agent Orange is and the
type of deformity that was the result?
BANGERT. I used to work with the pacification program in Vietnam and I
traveled extensively through Quang Tri Province. Specifically in the area of
Quang Tri City and west, Trieu Phong District, I saw approximately, during
my tour, twenty deformed infants under the age of one. It never made sense
to me, I thought it was congenital, or something, from venereal disease,
because they had flippers and things. I didn't understand what I saw until
approximately six months ago I read a report that was put out by Stamford
which talked about the thalidomide content within Agent Orange and it was
common knowledge that Agent Orange was sprayed in the area and we used to
see it about every three to four days where I was in Quang Tri Province. If
I could get back to the Vietnamese woman I saw that was mutilated so
horribly by that person, it didn't really shock me because I think I talked
about my first day in Vietnam.
You can check with the Marines who have been to Vietnam--your last day in
the States at staging battalion at Camp Pendleton you have a little lesson
and it's called the rabbit lesson, where the staff NCO comes out and he has
a rabbit and he's talking to you about escape and evasion and survival in
the jungle. He has this rabbit and then in a couple of seconds after just
about everyone falls in love with it, not falls in love with it, but, you
know, they're humane there, he cracks it in the neck, skins it, disembowels
it, just like I testified that this happened to a woman--he does this to the
rabbit--and then they throw the guts out into the audience. You can get
anything out of that you want, but that's your last lesson you catch in the
United States before you leave for Vietnam where they take that rabbit and
they kill it, and they skin it, and they play with its organs as if it's
trash and they throw the organs all over the place and then these guys are
put on the plane the next day and sent to Vietnam.
............................................................................
....................................................
"Bill Clarke" <cla...@livingston.net> wrote in message
news:tdm3g6s...@corp.supernews.com...
Bill Clarke
would take "to peel every bit of skin off her body" out there in the hot
sun? Blowing kids away? Don't you think that all this is a bit much?
Patrick T.
<edc...@earthlink.net> wrote:
Joe Bangert a Marine? Now that is fucking hilarious. He is one of
the top three idiots ever posting on this newsgroup, and no matter
what you might think of the United States Marine Corps, they had a
mental examination that you had to get before you were a Marine.
You guys crack me up sometimes. 1St MAW No less, very funny. He was
an ARVN and they had to bend the recruiting rules to allow him in that
August body.
Patrick T.
<cla...@livingston.net> wrote:
Bill,
I suppose you caught that "hitchhiking on route 1" North of Dong Ha
reference? And talks about two "Supersecret" types in that particular
area?
I don't suppose it has occured to some folks that in 1967 and 1968,
the Marines were surrounded by something like 3 Million Viet Namese of
one persuasion or another and we considered them all VC or NVA until
proven otherwise.
Hitchhiking my dieing ass. You got to admit, not bad for a Monday
morning.
Edward Combs
............................................................................news:tdm88h4...@corp.supernews.com...
Edward Combs
NOT fixing phone lines!
............................................................................
..............................................
"Bill Clarke" <cla...@livingston.net> wrote in message
Bill Clarke
Patrick T. <p.t.h...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:b39mdtgnq0ic7n16v...@4ax.com...
> >
> Bill,
> I suppose you caught that "hitchhiking on route 1" North of Dong Ha
> reference?
>
> Hitchhiking my dieing ass. You got to admit, not bad for a Monday
> morning.
>
That's kind of like saying "I think I'll get in the jeep and check out
Pinkville on my free weekend."
Free weekend? Visit Pinkville? I don't think so!
I honestly don't think most people have any ideal what it was like and I don
't think most of them believe you when you tell them what it was like. QL 1
was definitely not Route 66 hey Patrick.
Edward Combs
from TSN back.
............................................................................news:tdmedhm...@corp.supernews.com...
Patrick T.
<edc...@earthlink.net> wrote:
Trust me. Bien Hoa was NOT Dong Ha along Route 1. As for the time
frame, look up Operation Pegasus or Street Without Joy.
Edward Combs
from Can Tho to Saigon, but HQ would not let me...I had a take AA!
.............................................news:lvgmdt8mvvd5qad7p...@4ax.com...
Patrick T.
<cla...@livingston.net> wrote:
I just took a couple of weeks to drive a bit of Route 66 for old times
sake. That has changed a bit since the last time I was on it. But as
for QL 1 during the time frame we are talking about.
I would be amazed if even most people that post on this newsgroup had
any idea of what it was like once you got past Hai Van Pass. From Chu
Lai to the Pass was not called Indian Territory for shits and giggles.
Edward Combs
Now that the trip can be made I can't walk! If I had it to do over I would
have made the trip and told HQ when I got there(if I got there).
IMHO...the purpose of live is to live it(not profound, but true).
............................................................................
..............................................
"Edward Combs" <edc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:fzHC6.6179$u23.5...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Tom Dier
Even JW said that not all witnesses were credible.
I have an open mind, as I believe you do.
Much can be lost in translation or transcription, however. The best
way to ascertain credibility is through dialogue with these
individuals. Since I have never had a conversation with a "winter
soldier", I am reluctant to give up my objectivity.
A year or two ago, we mentioned how good it would be if Barry Romo or
others could be reached in order to provide perspective as to what
occurred in Detroit in 1971. I have attempted to get a copy of the
"Winter Soldier" film by emailing individuals connected with the
project and have been unsuccessful. Viewing this documentary might
enable us to better understand or decide the hearing's credibility. At
that time, a year or two ago, we were unaware that there was a "Joe
Bangert" who provided testimony. So there is a remaining question: Is
it the same Joe?
As to disagreement, we can do so without being disagreeable. I'm
always interested in your viewpoint.
Tom Dier 1/52 Americal Division 1970
Bill Clarke
Edward Combs <edc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:bqHC6.6156$u23.5...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> I've 'hitched' a ride from Bien Hoa to Saigon on Route 1 then caught > a
bus from TSN back.
>
............................................................................
> .....
And how many RPGs did they shoot at you on that perilous trip?
Sorry Ed, I just couldn't pass that one up.
Edward Combs
Saigon, someone said that the village on this side of the river was all VC
and the town on the other side was Saigon/Cholon.
...........................................news:tdmo60...@corp.supernews.com...
Edward Combs
things and they had none(not in season maybe).
........................news:8lJC6.6510$u23.5...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Patrick T.
wrote:
Tom,
Two things:
1. One of the Winter Soldiers is now the Mayor of Astoria, Oregon, a
simple search should show up his name etc. He was for years the
publisher of a small newspaper in the area.
2. It is just not possible that the Joe Bangert posting here was a
Marine. Several reasons for that:
We lost most of our people during that year, and anyone badmouthing a
Marine in that area at that time would have had the motherload of all
blanket parties. That was Marine land at the time. Nothing like that
could ever have been gotten away with in that area.
A Marine Officer participating in such an event would have been
arrested and Court Martialed instantaneously, let alone two. Joe
Bangert that posts here is an idiot. You may not think that precludes
him from being a Marine, but the truth is, someone at his level could
not have gotten out of boot camp.
He is so bad he probably dribbles when he talks and anything messing
up a uniform is too far gone for the Corps. VMO-6's Commanding
Officer won the Medal of Honor, that means all kinds of folks comming
in to verify, nose around, check things out etc. A story like this
would have not gone un-noticed.
Edward Combs
............................................................................news:qpomdt46uqhtb611s...@4ax.com...
Patrick T.
<edc...@earthlink.net> wrote:
I have had him killed filed for a long time, so I won't know unless
someone like you engages him and don't trim the message.
By the bye, you are on watch status. Not that you care, but just
thought I would let you know!
Edward Combs
.......................................................................news:q3tmdto9b8aooguuf...@4ax.com...
Bill Langston
with his job and let his imagination run wild.
SF
BL
"Patrick T." <p.t.h...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:b39mdtgnq0ic7n16v...@4ax.com...
David Gorick
where my squadron HMM-161 was. I was also there during the same time period
of 68-69 and I know for a fact that all Marines assigned to any of the three
Marine Squadrons there were picked up by either us or HMM-262 while they
were in Danang. For a newbie to be allowed to hitchhike would be
irresponsible. Also we were not allowed off the base of Quang Tri with the
exception of medcaps and that policy was in effect until just before I left
there. The only way on and off the base for anyone assigned to one of the
three squadrons was by helicopter. You would need to be one hell of a lot
higher up the food chain than a corporal to get around that policy.
SF,
Silo Dave
"Patrick T." <p.t.h...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:b39mdtgnq0ic7n16v...@4ax.com...
Patrick T.
<dgo...@earthlink.net> wrote:
David,
I am of two minds on this type of thing. On the one hand, we know it
is bull and should just ignore it, but on the other hand, people
believe this crap.
As a matter of fact, there are actually Viet Nam Vets and Era Vets
that believe this stuff. Depending on the mood I happen to be in, I
might let it go, or I might spend a day tracking down the source of it
and try and expose them for what they are....
An example from VMO-6, a man like this does not need to get his
jollies harming civilians and sure as shit wouldn't let anyone under
him dishonor our History and Traditions
Citation
Major Stephen W. Pless
United States Marine Corps
For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life
above and beyond the call of duty while serving as a helicopter
gunship pilot attached to Marine Observation Squadron Six in action
against enemy forces near Quang Ngai, Republic of Vietnam, on 19
August 1967. During an escort mission Major ( then Captain ) Pless
monitored a emergency call that four American soldiers stranded on a
nearby beach, were being overwhelmed by a large Viet Cong force. Major
Pless flew to the scene and found 30 to 50 enemy soldiers in the open.
Some of the enemy were bayoneting and beating the downed Americans.
Major Pless displayed exceptional airmanship as he launched a
devastating attack against the enemy force, killing or wounding many
of the enemy and driving the remainder back into a treeline. His
rocket and machine gun attacks were made at such low levels the the
aircraft flew through debris created by explosions from its rockets.
Seeing one of the wounded soldiers gesture for assistance, he
maneuvered his helicopter into a position between the wounded men and
the enemy, providing a shield which permitted his crew to retrieve the
wounded. During the rescue the enemy directed intense fire at the
helicopter and rushed the aircraft again and again, closing to within
a few feet before being beaten back. When the wounded men were aboard,
Major Pless maneuvered the helicopter out to sea. Before it became
safely airborne, the overloaded aircraft settled four times into the
water. Displaying superb airmanship, he finally got the helicopter
aloft. Major Pless's extraordinary heroism coupled with his
outstanding flying skill prevented the annihilation of the tiny force.
His courageous actions reflect great credit upon himself and uphold
the highest traditions of the Marine Corps and the United States Naval
Service.
Lyndon B. Johnson
President of the United States.
David Gorick
the courage of that entire aircrew. I've actually talked with one of the
crew on that flight. (Silver Star) One hell of a tough bunch of Marines.
"Patrick T." <p.t.h...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:kecndtkoqdnrpupci...@4ax.com...
Bill Langston
One of the sad things about all this crap is that when we dispute and
attempt to refute these bullshit stories, other guys like Dino, for example,
will make statements later on that some of us claim that everything was just
one big rosy scenario. It was not but it also was surely *not* like guys
like Bangert claim.
I sure get tired of our names getting dragged thru the dirt like this but it
seems to be some folks stock-in-trade don't it?
SF
BL
"David Gorick" <dgo...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:VzOC6.80$M51....@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Edward Combs
............................................................................
.................
"Bill Langston" <l...@cei.net> wrote in message
news:8JPC6.1428$fL5.143...@typhoon.cei.net...
Bob (RS)
Is this the same guy who had an flying business of some kind in
Communist VietNam after the war?
I think he called himself "B...@capecod.net" or is this a different
one?
Bob
On Tue, 17 Apr 2001 00:13:35 GMT, "Edward Combs"
<edc...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>He was 'gijoe' for awhile. You are right...I don't care!
>.......................................................................
>"Patrick T." <p.t.h...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
>news:q3tmdto9b8aooguuf...@4ax.com...
>> On Mon, 16 Apr 2001 21:50:32 GMT, "Edward Combs"
>> <edc...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>> I have had him killed filed for a long time, so I won't know unless
>> someone like you engages him and don't trim the message.
>>
>> By the bye, you are on watch status. Not that you care, but just
>> thought I would let you know!
>>
>> >If that don't bring him out, nothing will!
>>
>>
>
..Let the enemy be regarded as a Pandora with the box
opened; and the disguised one, as a serpent creeping
with his deadly wiles into Paradise.
James Madison 1834
grglnsctt@nospam@cs.com
Yeah, that stretch up HWY 1 from Chu Lai to Danang wasn't a cakewalk (in 68).
I think we called it Arizona Territory, Dodge City or Indian country. Anywho,
the area got the name because you were almost guarenteed a firefight
everytime you showed up.
Best Regards
Greg
In article <h2hmdto75e2e5at7m...@4ax.com>, Patrick T.
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meport
and NVA they tortured to death on the wire along side the road in front of
their compound between Quang Tri and Dong Ha because I saw the bodies they
strung up there many times.
--
The person who usually gets the most benefit from a complex situation
is the person who put the least effort into the outcome.
Bill Clarke <cla...@livingston.net> wrote in message
news:tdm88h4...@corp.supernews.com...
> Well Ed, do you believe that? Do you know how long and how much effort it
> would take "to peel every bit of skin off her body" out there in the hot
> sun? Blowing kids away? Don't you think that all this is a bit much?
>
Edward Combs
http://www.findat.com/cats/cat04/top01/vt.htm
...............................................................
"Bob (RS)" <Damy...@eathlnk.net> wrote in message
news:q1fpdtsojrmudipos...@4ax.com...
Doug Reese
isn't the Arizona Territory inland from Hwy 1? Below Danang and above Chu
Lai, but to the west 15-20 km.
Doug
Patrick T.
Thaat is why I seperated the two. Either way,. you were in it. I
see a guy today, no matter his mos, I know and he knows, Hwy1 was a
rating!
Charles G. White
assure you that he was legitimately killed in battle when his company made
the mistake of ambushing the wrong people at the wrong time. You may
thinking of one of those. Unless you were a witness to the "torture," you
would not have a way to know the difference. On the other hand, if you were
a witness, then you committed a crime by not reporting it.
"meport" wrote
Bill Clarke
Doug Reese <dre...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:9bij4s$9cf$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
> I was a delta guy back then, but from my Marine clients trips back -
> isn't the Arizona Territory inland from Hwy 1? Below Danang and
> above Chu Lai, but to the west 15-20 km.
>
> Doug
>
I wasn't quite that far north like some of us but that was my understanding
of it Doug except that the Arizona Territory plays out somewhere north of
the Que Son Valley and doesn't go near as far south as Chu Lai. Would that
be correct Patrick? I wish there was a map with these AOs marked because it
can be confusing to us that wasn't in the AO as we read about them.
And a good map could have prevented the late confusion about "The Pineapple
Forest". <G>
Bill Clarke
meport <la...@javanet.com> wrote in message
news:9big8v$plu$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
> I do believe that the MACV advisors used to string up some of the
> dead VC and NVA they tortured to death on the wire along side the > road
in front of their compound between Quang Tri and Dong Ha
> because I saw the bodies they strung up there many times.
>
> --
Damn, didn't that stink and draw flies? I wouldn't want that hanging on my
yard fence.
grglnsctt@nospam@cs.com
That be correct.
Greg
In article <9bij4s$9cf$1...@bob.news.rcn.net>, Doug Reese <dre...@erols.com>
writes:
Patrick T.
Tried to email you, but it bounced because I was too stupid to look at
your spam blocker. It was I think 22 miles southwest of DaNang. I
posted an url for Bill earlier today that has The Arizona mentioned
for I think Operation Mallard, which I was on and Frank Crabbe, a
Canadian in my platoon was killed.
Mac McKinzie
out hitch-hiking down the old hiway on his first day in-country...shit...
I think he heard the rabbit story from someone else while doing some baddddd
drugs.
"Bill Clarke" <cla...@livingston.net> wrote in message
news:tdm88h4...@corp.supernews.com...
> Well Ed, do you believe that? Do you know how long and how much effort it
> would take "to peel every bit of skin off her body" out there in the hot
> sun? Blowing kids away? Don't you think that all this is a bit much?
>