Word for the inhabitants of Kasakhstan?
Nele Abels
I was wondering, and my dictionaries didn't help me, how
the inhabitants of Kasakhstan are called. Intuitively I would
go for "Kasakhians", but I'm really not sure. Is it "Kasakhs" or
perhaps something completely different?
Thanks a lot,
Nele
--
Klingon function calls do not have 'parameters' -
they have 'arguments' - and they ALWAYS WIN THEM.
Mark Brader
> I was wondering, and my dictionaries didn't help me, how
The place is normally spelled Kazakhstan in English, and the people
are Kazakhs. At least, that's the only word I can remember hearing
for them, and it's the one used in the CIA World Factbook
<http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/>.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "Information! ... We want information!"
m...@vex.net -- The Prisoner
My text in this article is in the public domain.
John Seeliger
news:NKVf9.337$Vp1.20...@news.nnrp.ca...
> Nele Abels writes:
> > I was wondering, and my dictionaries didn't help me, how
> > the inhabitants of Kasakhstan are called. ...
>
> The place is normally spelled Kazakhstan in English, and the people
> are Kazakhs. At least, that's the only word I can remember hearing
> for them, and it's the one used in the CIA World Factbook
> <http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/>.
Comparing it to Afghanistan (Afghans) and Tajikistan (Tajiks) and Uzbekistan
(Uzbeks) and the state the people of northern Iraq/Eastern Turkey want to
build, Kurdistan (Kurds), I would have guess Kazakhs too, and I think that
is the way I am used to hearing it.
Kazakhstanis (cf. Pakistanis) would be the second choice, but I think it is
too wordy.
--
John Seeliger Limited but increasing content
jsee...@yahoo.com <http://www.freewebz.com/hudathunkett/>
jsee...@aaahawk.com
Garry J. Vass
news:3D80238E...@t-online.de...
> Hi folks,
>
> I was wondering, and my dictionaries didn't help me, how
> the inhabitants of Kasakhstan are called. Intuitively I would
> go for "Kasakhians", but I'm really not sure. Is it "Kasakhs" or
> perhaps something completely different?
>
Kazakh. Although I have been using the English version, "Cossack", in
correspondence for quite some time, and no one has objected.
Kind regards,
GJV
Nele Abels
[...]
Thanks for the answers, folks.
Ben Zimmer
John Seeliger wrote:
>
> "Mark Brader" <m...@vex.net> wrote in message
> news:NKVf9.337$Vp1.20...@news.nnrp.ca...
> > Nele Abels writes:
> > > I was wondering, and my dictionaries didn't help me, how
> > > the inhabitants of Kasakhstan are called. ...
> >
> > The place is normally spelled Kazakhstan in English, and the people
> > are Kazakhs. At least, that's the only word I can remember hearing
> > for them, and it's the one used in the CIA World Factbook
> > <http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/>.
>
> Comparing it to Afghanistan (Afghans) and Tajikistan (Tajiks) and Uzbekistan
> (Uzbeks) and the state the people of northern Iraq/Eastern Turkey want to
> build, Kurdistan (Kurds), I would have guess Kazakhs too, and I think that
> is the way I am used to hearing it.
>
> Kazakhstanis (cf. Pakistanis) would be the second choice, but I think it is
> too wordy.
Another possibility is "Kazakhi", which, like "Afghani" [1], is not
considered a correct English designation (though it probably works in
Arabic, Persian, or Urdu).
[1]
http://slate.msn.com/?id=1008383
http://slate.msn.com/?id=1008397
http://slate.msn.com/?id=2059190
Martin Ambuhl
>
> Hi folks,
>
> I was wondering, and my dictionaries didn't help me, how
> the inhabitants of Kasakhstan are called. Intuitively I would
> go for "Kasakhians", but I'm really not sure. Is it "Kasakhs" or
> perhaps something completely different?
Is this the same place as Kazakhstan? If so, the people and their
language are both called "Kazakh."
Tristan Miller
On Thu, 12 Sep 2002, Mark Brader wrote:
> The place is normally spelled Kazakhstan in English, and the people
> are Kazakhs.
The problem with that is that only 45% of the inhabitants of Kazakhstan
are ethnic Kazakhs. There are very large minorities of displaced Russians
(35%), Germans, Ukranians, etc. AFAIK, when the former SSRs were first
created, the Soviets drew up the boundary lines such that no political
division had a significant majority of the people it was named for. The
intent was to supposedly suppress nationalism and the cries for autonomy
or secession that invariably ensue.
The most egregious example I can think of is the Jewish Autonomous Oblast,
which has always had a small minority of Jews (currently about 5%, and
historically never more than 25%). Surely you would not suggest that we
call the collective inhabitants of this region Jews. So why should we
call the inhabitants of Kazakhstan Kazakhs?
If you need to refer to which nation holds political authority over the
people, I would use "citizens of Kazakhstan". If their citizenship has
nothing to do with it, then I would leave Kazakhstan out of the
description completely, and use some other characteristic which better
defines the group (ethnicity, language, religion, city, etc.).
--
\\\ Tristan Miller
\\\ Department of Computer Science, University of Toronto
\\\ http://www.cs.toronto.edu/~psy/
Arcadian Rises
<jsee...@yahoo.com> writes:
>Kazakhstanis (cf. Pakistanis) would be the second choice, but I think it is
>too wordy.
I think it's too lettery.
Padraig Breathnach
>Kazakh. Although I have been using the English version, "Cossack", in
>correspondence for quite some time, and no one has objected.
>
That's the sort of little gem that makes usenet such an occasional
joy: I had not known or guessed the connection between Kazakhstan and
Cossack.
And I wouldn't have to hesitate in typing Cossackstan as I do with
Kazakhstan.
PB
Robert Bannister
> "Garry J. Vass" <ga...@totally-official.com> wrote:
>
> >Kazakh. Although I have been using the English version, "Cossack", in
> >correspondence for quite some time, and no one has objected.
> >
> That's the sort of little gem that makes usenet such an occasional
> joy: I had not known or guessed the connection between Kazakhstan and
> Cossack.
It certainly got me chasing up the etymology of 'cossack' - according to
m-w, from the Turkish 'kozak', a free person. Perhaps the ethnic Kozakhs,
along with Uzbekis and others in that region, should be called Turks or at
least Turkish.
--
Rob Bannister
John Smith
Not all of them. Some are not Kazakhs and don't speak Kazakh, but they
are still Kazakhstanis.
\\P. Schultz
Steve Hayes
And what about the Don Kazakhs?
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/steve.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Garry J. Vass
news:i252oucv5fguv0t22...@4ax.com...
>
> And I wouldn't have to hesitate in typing Cossackstan as I do with
> Kazakhstan.
>
Local legend has it that after God closed down the Garden of Eden, he went
to Kazakhstan and planted an apple tree. And from that original apple tree
in Kazakhstan, all other apple trees are descended.
Perhaps not the most mesmerising of legends, but hey! It's buried in the
etymology of a city name there.
To see a full-blooded Cossack, fiercely proud of her heritage, diddling
about in the Marylebone environs (can't imagine why), check this:
http://www.londonelegance.com/e/ea01.jpg
Kind regards,
GJV
Mike Oliver
> To see a full-blooded Cossack, fiercely proud of her heritage, diddling
> about in the Marylebone environs (can't imagine why), check this:
> http://www.londonelegance.com/e/ea01.jpg
False advertising! There's nobody diddling in that picture.
Waait a minute. Are the boinks false advertising too? Maybe
I haven't missed as much as I thought.
Laura F Spira
You'll never know though, will you?
I have been sceptical about pictures ever since visiting the museum of
film and photography in Bradford where one could see an unedited piece
of newsreel film next to the edited version. Kodak, I think, ran an
advert not long ago which demonstrated how differing interpretations of
images can be managed.
Reading today's Guardian, I discovered to my surprise that there are
people who are convinced that the Moon landings never took place but
that the whole thing was an elaborate hoax.
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
Garry J. Vass
news:3D81A902...@math.ucla.edu...
> "Garry J. Vass" wrote:
>
> > To see a full-blooded Cossack, fiercely proud of her heritage, diddling
> > about in the Marylebone environs (can't imagine why), check this:
> > http://www.londonelegance.com/e/ea01.jpg
>
> False advertising! There's nobody diddling in that picture.
>
Look behind the sofa :)
Garry J. Vass
news:3D81B47D...@DRAGONspira.u-net.com...
>
> Reading today's Guardian, I discovered to my surprise that there are
> people who are convinced that the Moon landings never took place but
> that the whole thing was an elaborate hoax.
>
Surely you don't believe that a civilization still measuring distances in
feet and inches could travel to the moon and back.
dcw
>news:3D81B47D...@DRAGONspira.u-net.com...
>>
>> people who are convinced that the Moon landings never took place but
>> that the whole thing was an elaborate hoax.
>
>feet and inches could travel to the moon and back.
The moon, but not Mars.
David
John Seeliger
news:alsgth$ns9u$1...@ID-134717.news.dfncis.de...
It would taken an awfully big ruler to measure the number of inches to the
moon.
R H Draney
The incident to which you seem to be referring wasn't because the
people involved were using feet and inches, but because some of them
weren't....r
Michael J Hardy
> I was wondering, and my dictionaries didn't help me, how
> the inhabitants of Kasakhstan are called.
I thought the reason the country was called "Kazakhstan"
is that the people are called "Kazakhs". -- Mike Hardy
Neno
And while we're at it, how about the inhabitants of Sao Tome and
Principe? Saotomeandprincipians, I expect? (Would be VERY
disappointed if it's anything but.)
Neno
http://free-st.hinet.hr/na
Emailed copies of responses are very much appreciated.
Yusuf B Gursey
: Hi folks,
: I was wondering, and my dictionaries didn't help me, how
: the inhabitants of Kasakhstan are called. Intuitively I would
: go for "Kasakhians", but I'm really not sure. Is it "Kasakhs" or
: perhaps something completely different?
kazakhs . actually *kh* is a russian rendering. in kazakh it is qazaq
(or a variant of this) in the native language. *kh* was used by the
russians to distinguish them from the russian kazaki (-i is a plural, I
believe), the russian cossaks. both come from the same turkic word meaning
"nomad", "free wanderer".
: Thanks a lot,
Yusuf B Gursey
: "Mark Brader" <m...@vex.net> wrote in message
: news:NKVf9.337$Vp1.20...@news.nnrp.ca...
:> Nele Abels writes:
:> > I was wondering, and my dictionaries didn't help me, how
:> > the inhabitants of Kasakhstan are called. ...
:>
:> The place is normally spelled Kazakhstan in English, and the people
:> are Kazakhs. At least, that's the only word I can remember hearing
:> for them, and it's the one used in the CIA World Factbook
:> <http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/>.
: Comparing it to Afghanistan (Afghans) and Tajikistan (Tajiks) and Uzbekistan
: (Uzbeks) and the state the people of northern Iraq/Eastern Turkey want to
: build, Kurdistan (Kurds), I would have guess Kazakhs too, and I think that
: is the way I am used to hearing it.
: Kazakhstanis (cf. Pakistanis) would be the second choice, but I think it is
: too wordy.
that may be a "politically correct" way of including ethnically non-kazakh
inhabitants or citizens of kazakhstan.
pakistani is used because pak (pa:k) is not an ethnic name. pakistan was
created as an acronoym if its constituent provinces and at the same time a
punning word meaning "land of the pure" , pa:k = pure (in persian and thus
in urdu). the coiner of the term is known and he seems ot have been fond
of word-plays.
: --
Yusuf B Gursey
afghani is an adjective in arabic, persian, urdu (at least consequently in
pashto).
(persian and urdu have the adjectivial long i i.e. i: , coincidentlaly
similar to the arabic - and common semitic - relativce adjetcive
suffix -iyy)
in arabic however af*gh*a:n is considered a plural (or collective,
denoting the people as a whole, when used with the definite article), and
af*gh*a:niyy , in addition to its usage adjectivially, denotes a single
afghan.
: [1]
Yusuf B Gursey
: Greetings.
that's why you could introduce "lkazakh" (ethnic) vs. kazakhstani"
(citizenship)
: --
Yusuf B Gursey
: Greetings.
: On Thu, 12 Sep 2002, Mark Brader wrote:
:> The place is normally spelled Kazakhstan in English, and the people
:> are Kazakhs.
: The problem with that is that only 45% of the inhabitants of Kazakhstan
: are ethnic Kazakhs. There are very large minorities of displaced Russians
and only 60% in afghanistan are afghans.
Yusuf B Gursey
: On Thu, 12 Sep 2002 22:28:40 GMT, Padraig Breathnach <padr...@iol.ie> wrote:
:>"Garry J. Vass" <ga...@totally-official.com> wrote:
:>
:>>Kazakh. Although I have been using the English version, "Cossack", in
:>>correspondence for quite some time, and no one has objected.
:>>
:>That's the sort of little gem that makes usenet such an occasional
:>joy: I had not known or guessed the connection between Kazakhstan and
:>Cossack.
:>
:>And I wouldn't have to hesitate in typing Cossackstan as I do with
:>Kazakhstan.
: And what about the Don Kazakhs?
form the same turkic word, "free wanderer", "nomad" etc.
: --
Yusuf B Gursey
Yusuf B Gursey
Yusuf B Gursey
: in arabic however af*gh*a:n is considered a plural (or collective,
: denoting the people as a whole, when used with the definite article), and
: af*gh*a:niyy , in addition to its usage adjectivially, denotes a single
: afghan.
and incidentally in arabic 3arab is "arabs", al-3arab the arabs (as a
whole), 3arabiyy "a single arab (masc.)"
Kurt Kurosawa
"Garry J. Vass" <ga...@totally-official.com> wrote in message
news:alpgqp$1roe40$1...@ID-134717.news.dfncis.de...
>
> Kazakh. Although I have been using the English version, "Cossack", in
> correspondence for quite some time, and no one has objected.
That's what I figured, although I'd guess anyone would be happy to change
the spelling of their name with the kind of rep the Cossacks built during
WWII.
Steve Hayes
wrote:
>Nele Abels <nele....@t-online.de> wrote:
>: Hi folks,
>
>: I was wondering, and my dictionaries didn't help me, how
>: the inhabitants of Kasakhstan are called. Intuitively I would
>: go for "Kasakhians", but I'm really not sure. Is it "Kasakhs" or
>: perhaps something completely different?
>
>
>kazakhs . actually *kh* is a russian rendering. in kazakh it is qazaq
>(or a variant of this) in the native language. *kh* was used by the
>russians to distinguish them from the russian kazaki (-i is a plural, I
>believe), the russian cossaks. both come from the same turkic word meaning
>"nomad", "free wanderer".
Are they ethnically related?
Yusuf B Gursey
: Padraig Breathnach wrote:
:> "Garry J. Vass" <ga...@totally-official.com> wrote:
:>
:> >Kazakh. Although I have been using the English version, "Cossack", in
:> >correspondence for quite some time, and no one has objected.
:> >
:> That's the sort of little gem that makes usenet such an occasional
:> joy: I had not known or guessed the connection between Kazakhstan and
:> Cossack.
: It certainly got me chasing up the etymology of 'cossack' - according to
: m-w, from the Turkish 'kozak', a free person. Perhaps the ethnic Kozakhs,
turkic "a" frequently gets slavicized as "o" . kazakhs (i.e. qazaqs) are
turkic, cossacks are slavic.
: along with Uzbekis and others in that region, should be called Turks or at
uzbeks
: least Turkish.
"turkish" in current usage refers to anatolian turks, while the larger
group (incl. anatolian turks, kazakhs, uzbeks and many more) is now called
"turkic".
: --
: Rob Bannister
Yusuf B Gursey
:>Kazakh. Although I have been using the English version, "Cossack", in
:>correspondence for quite some time, and no one has objected.
:>
: That's the sort of little gem that makes usenet such an occasional
: joy: I had not known or guessed the connection between Kazakhstan and
: Cossack.
: And I wouldn't have to hesitate in typing Cossackstan as I do with
: Kazakhstan.
but cossacks speak a slavic language (I think I dialect bordering russian
and ukrainian) which doesn't happen to use the persian suffix -stan (and
english doesn't either) as most turkic languages do.
: PB
Yusuf B Gursey
: On Sat, 14 Sep 2002 19:36:53 GMT, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@shell01.TheWorld.com>
: wrote:
:>Nele Abels <nele....@t-online.de> wrote:
:>: Hi folks,
:>
:>: I was wondering, and my dictionaries didn't help me, how
:>: the inhabitants of Kasakhstan are called. Intuitively I would
:>: go for "Kasakhians", but I'm really not sure. Is it "Kasakhs" or
:>: perhaps something completely different?
:>
:>
:>kazakhs . actually *kh* is a russian rendering. in kazakh it is qazaq
:>(or a variant of this) in the native language. *kh* was used by the
:>russians to distinguish them from the russian kazaki (-i is a plural, I
:>believe), the russian cossaks. both come from the same turkic word meaning
:>"nomad", "free wanderer".
: Are they ethnically related?
no, other than they may happen to include many christianized and slavified
turkic people unaware of their ultimate origin. but they did adopt much
of the lifestyle, organization and cultural elements of the turkic tribes
whom they fought.
russian in general has much vocabulary of turkic origin.
: --
John Seeliger
news:H2HD5...@world.std.com...
> Robert Bannister <rob...@it.net.au> wrote:
> : It certainly got me chasing up the etymology of 'cossack' - according to
> : m-w, from the Turkish 'kozak', a free person. Perhaps the ethnic
Kozakhs,
>
> turkic "a" frequently gets slavicized as "o" . kazakhs (i.e. qazaqs) are
> turkic, cossacks are slavic.
>
Is the "z" hard or soft in Turkish? I would say "Cossack" with a soft s,
but "Kazakh" with a hard s.
John Seeliger
It is good to know what a Cossak is though. I think I learned in reading
this story in eight grade:
<http://www.classicreader.com/read.php/sid.6/bookid.1317/>
John Seeliger
news:am2ct7$1t974$1...@ID-146094.news.dfncis.de...
> "Yusuf B Gursey" <y...@shell01.TheWorld.com> wrote in message
> news:H2HDA...@world.std.com...
> > Padraig Breathnach <padr...@iol.ie> wrote:
> > : "Garry J. Vass" <ga...@totally-official.com> wrote:
> >
> > :>Kazakh. Although I have been using the English version, "Cossack", in
> > :>correspondence for quite some time, and no one has objected.
> > :>
> > : That's the sort of little gem that makes usenet such an occasional
> > : joy: I had not known or guessed the connection between Kazakhstan and
> > : Cossack.
> >
> > : And I wouldn't have to hesitate in typing Cossackstan as I do with
> > : Kazakhstan.
> >
> > but cossacks speak a slavic language (I think I dialect bordering
russian
> > and ukrainian) which doesn't happen to use the persian suffix -stan (and
> > english doesn't either) as most turkic languages do.
>
> It is good to know what a Cossak is though. I think I learned in reading
> this story in eight grade:
> <http://www.classicreader.com/read.php/sid.6/bookid.1317/>
Oh and btw, compare to http://www.wouldyoubelieve.com/episodes.html
«Island of the Darned
Airdate: Saturday, November 26, 1966, 8:30 PM
Writers: Buck Henry, William Raynor, & Myles Wilder. Story by Raynor
and Wilder
Director: Gary Nelson
Carl's Rating: **
Agent 27 is investigating former Nazi, former Communist, and current KAOS
Agent Hans Hunter when he disappears for three months. Suddenly, he shows up
in the Chief's office, murdered and stuffed by Hunter, who has set up an
island where he hunts CONTROL agents for fun and profit. 86 and 99 head to
the island to capture Hunter, but instead are captured by him. They are
forced to be the prey in a game for their lives, with Hunter the hunter.
Max, who is armed only with his wits, offers to trade them for a rifle, but
instead keeps them and defeats Hunter.
Harold Gould from Rhoda, The Golden Girls, and Get Smart Again appears as
Hans Hunter.
»
Yusuf B Gursey
: "Yusuf B Gursey" <y...@shell01.TheWorld.com> wrote in message
: news:H2HD5...@world.std.com...
:> Robert Bannister <rob...@it.net.au> wrote:
:> : It certainly got me chasing up the etymology of 'cossack' - according to
:> : m-w, from the Turkish 'kozak', a free person. Perhaps the ethnic
: Kozakhs,
:>
:> turkic "a" frequently gets slavicized as "o" . kazakhs (i.e. qazaqs) are
:> turkic, cossacks are slavic.
:>
: Is the "z" hard or soft in Turkish? I would say "Cossack" with a soft s,
well, this isn't anatolian turkish, but the sound is a voiced z (a few
turkic languages may devoice it).
in russian "Cossack" is pronounced Kazak for most purposes identical with
the turkic word (though turkic would tend to pronounce the k's further
back. there might be soem slavic idioms that would pronoucne at elast one
the a's labialized.
in anatolian turkish at least (and also at a time when there was strong
contact with both the cossacks and other turkic people of the area) both
are called "kazak", cossacks were called russian kazak's. the word
describes people of a certain lifestyle.
: but "Kazakh" with a hard s.
Aaron J. Dinkin
> "Yusuf B Gursey" <y...@shell01.TheWorld.com> wrote in message
> news:H2HD5...@world.std.com...
>
>> turkic "a" frequently gets slavicized as "o" . kazakhs (i.e. qazaqs)
>> are turkic, cossacks are slavic.
>
> Is the "z" hard or soft in Turkish? I would say "Cossack" with a soft
> s, but "Kazakh" with a hard s.
What do you mean by "hard s" and "soft s"? Just "s" and "z"?
-Aaron J. Dinkin
Dr. Whom
John Seeliger
news:4B3h9.487940$UU1.78605@sccrnsc03...
Yes, that's what I meant.
Michael J Hardy
> how about the inhabitants of Sao Tome and Principe?
> Saotomeandprincipians, I expect?
"Saotomeandprinciples"?
"Saotomeandprincipals"?
"Saotomeandprinces"?
"Saotomeandprints"?
"Saotomeandprincipeans"? (With an "e" rather than an "i",
because the "e" was already there.)
Padraig Breathnach
Go on. Finish your response: what would the land of the Cossacks be in
a Slavic language? And how, as members of the Slavic community, did
they get stuck with Kazakhstan?
PB
James Dolan
padraig breathnach <padr...@iol.ie> wrote:
i have no expert knowledge on this subject whatsoever, but a few
months ago i made a brief attempt to get some answers to some
questions along the above lines, and i was struck by the way in which
the on-line sources such as the encyclopaedia brittanica that i
checked seemed to avoid giving any straight answers. my uneducated
guess is that the kazakhs and the cossacks are all more or less the
same people not so far back, and that they hate to be reminded of it
because they hate each other, and that some of them like to pretend
that it was all the other group's fault for making their shared name
into an international swear-word, whereas in fact it was a reasonably
nasty word in their own native language even before they all decided
to adopt it as their name for themselves, and that the people who
write the reference books decline to state the truth about the subject
because they know what cossacks are really like. just kidding, i'm
sure kazakhs would be some of my best friends if i'd ever met any.
--
[e-mail address jdo...@math.ucr.edu]
Yusuf B Gursey
what do you mean? kazakhs are are muslim and turkic and were under a
certain cultural sphere, and they borrow the persian suffix, slavic
doesn't, so slavic speaking cossacks won't tend to use it.
: PB
Padraig Breathnach
Are Kazakhs and Cossacks distinct groups, then? Or are they divisions
of one group? And what do Cossacks call the land which we hear of as
Kazakhstan?
PB
Michael J Hardy
And am I a United Stationary? -- Mike Hardy
John Seeliger
news:3d860a62$0$3937$b45e...@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu...
Wouldn't that be what United Airlines writes all of their memos on?
R H Draney
>>
>> > how about the inhabitants of Sao Tome and Principe?
>> > Saotomeandprincipians, I expect?
>>
>> "Saotomeandprinciples"?
>> "Saotomeandprincipals"?
>> "Saotomeandprinces"?
>> "Saotomeandprints"?
>> "Saotomeandprincipeans"? (With an "e" rather than an "i",
>> because the "e" was already there.)
Has anybody actually settled this one?...I no longer keep the almanac handy at
my desk that used to contain such facts, but Googling on a set containing some
of the more interesting "local" terms ("nigerian nigerien burkinabe
monegasque"), a set unlikely to occur in many web pages in its entirety unless
they address just this matter, I find:
Sao Tome and Principe:
noun: Sao Tomean(s)
adjective: Sao Tomean
Apparently the people of Principe are overlooked when speaking of the country as
a whole...for other jointly-named places, they have:
Trinidad and Tobago:
noun: Trinidadian(s), Tobagonian(s)
adjective: Trinidadian, Tobagonian
...and...
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines:
noun: Saint Vincentian(s) or Vincentian(s)
adjective: Saint Vincentian or Vincentian
...and finally, one I imagine some people would take issue with...
Saint Pierre and Miquelon:
noun: Frenchman(men), Frenchwoman(women)
adjective: French
....r (Phoenician)
Garry J. Vass
news:oefbouon23rku3s4t...@4ax.com...
> Are Kazakhs and Cossacks distinct groups, then? Or are they divisions
> of one group? And what do Cossacks call the land which we hear of as
> Kazakhstan?
>
Oooooo. Nice one!
Yusuf B Gursey
:>Padraig Breathnach <padr...@iol.ie> wrote:
:>: Yusuf B Gursey <y...@shell01.TheWorld.com> wrote:
:>
:>:>but cossacks speak a slavic language (I think I dialect bordering russian
:>:>and ukrainian) which doesn't happen to use the persian suffix -stan (and
:>:>english doesn't either) as most turkic languages do.
:>:>
:>: Go on. Finish your response: what would the land of the Cossacks be in
:>: a Slavic language? And how, as members of the Slavic community, did
:>: they get stuck with Kazakhstan?
:>
:>
:>what do you mean? kazakhs are are muslim and turkic and were under a
:>certain cultural sphere, and they borrow the persian suffix, slavic
:>doesn't, so slavic speaking cossacks won't tend to use it.
:>
: Are Kazakhs and Cossacks distinct groups, then? Or are they divisions
yes, they are distinct. the first is turkic speaking, the other is slavic
speaking, among other things. ancestry is irrelevant, ethnicity is
based on self-identity. the ethnic name is etymologically the same, it
turns out to be so because it is really descriptive of their original way
of life.
: of one group? And what do Cossacks call the land which we hear of as
: Kazakhstan?
I told you russian rendered turkic qazaq as kazakh to distinguish it from
russian kazak (cossack) - which happens to be etymologically identical. to
be fair, q > *kh* in that position is a frequent dialect variant in
turkic languages. apperently at first russians named the group kara -
kyrkyz (turkic qara qyr*gh*yz) "black kyrgyz" ("black" appears frequently
in turkic tribal names and does refer to skin color) to avoid confusion
with the cossacks and since they are in fact linguistically very close to
the kyrgyz. but this led to confusion with the qyrgyz, so the present
scheme was adopted.
: PB
Yusuf B Gursey
: : of one group? And what do Cossacks call the land which we hear of as
: : Kazakhstan?
: I told you russian rendered turkic qazaq as kazakh to distinguish it from
perhaps I shoudl mention that kh is a distinct sound in russian. it
represents here the sound represented in cyrillic as X
: russian kazak (cossack) - which happens to be etymologically identical. to
Padraig Breathnach
>Padraig Breathnach <padr...@iol.ie> wrote:
>: Are Kazakhs and Cossacks distinct groups, then? Or are they divisions
>
>yes, they are distinct. the first is turkic speaking, the other is slavic
>speaking, among other things. ancestry is irrelevant, ethnicity is
>based on self-identity.
>
That's what I was beginning to suspect. I agree strongly with the idea
that ethnicity is cultural rather than biological. I take it that
there was once a single nation of Kassacks or Cozakhs, which fell
under Slavic or Turkic influences and effectively divided -- I presume
some geographic element in the division. Did the original nation have
a distinct language which was neither Slavic nor Turkic? (I am of the
opinion that a nation without a distinct language will have difficulty
maintaining its identity.)
>the ethnic name is etymologically the same, it
>turns out to be so because it is really descriptive of their original way
>of life.
>
>: of one group? And what do Cossacks call the land which we hear of as
>: Kazakhstan?
>
>I told you russian rendered turkic qazaq as kazakh to distinguish it from
>russian kazak (cossack) - which happens to be etymologically identical. to
>be fair, q > *kh* in that position is a frequent dialect variant in
>turkic languages. apperently at first russians named the group kara -
>kyrkyz (turkic qara qyr*gh*yz) "black kyrgyz" ("black" appears frequently
>in turkic tribal names and does refer to skin color) to avoid confusion
>with the cossacks and since they are in fact linguistically very close to
>the kyrgyz. but this led to confusion with the qyrgyz, so the present
>scheme was adopted.
Thank you. I am reminded again that few things in human affairs are
simple.
PB
James Dolan
padraig breathnach <padr...@iol.ie> wrote:
|That's what I was beginning to suspect. I agree strongly with the idea
|that ethnicity is cultural rather than biological. I take it that
|there was once a single nation of Kassacks or Cozakhs, which fell
|under Slavic or Turkic influences and effectively divided -- I presume
|some geographic element in the division. Did the original nation have
|a distinct language which was neither Slavic nor Turkic?
they were pretty damned turkic to begin with, as much as they were
anything else, as best as i remember offhand. the contrasting
influences that they fell under were probably mostly [russian and
christian] versus muslim.
--
[e-mail address jdo...@math.ucr.edu]
Yusuf B Gursey
: Yusuf B Gursey <y...@shell01.TheWorld.com> wrote:
:>Padraig Breathnach <padr...@iol.ie> wrote:
:>: Are Kazakhs and Cossacks distinct groups, then? Or are they divisions
:>
:>yes, they are distinct. the first is turkic speaking, the other is slavic
:>speaking, among other things. ancestry is irrelevant, ethnicity is
:>based on self-identity.
:>
: That's what I was beginning to suspect. I agree strongly with the idea
: that ethnicity is cultural rather than biological. I take it that
: there was once a single nation of Kassacks or Cozakhs, which fell
: under Slavic or Turkic influences and effectively divided -- I presume
no. kazak is a descriptive word. apparently for the central asian
kazaks it was originally applied to a confederation that abandoned as
certain late medieval khan to adopt a nomadic lifetsyle in the present
area. russian cossacks were so called because they were escaped serfs who
adopted a similar lifestyle. they were both "independent vagabonds".
this does not preclude that some were of turkic ancestry at some point,
but the same could also be said of protions of the russian aristocracy or
sedentary population.
there is also a lesser known group called qazaq in azerbaijan or the
caucasus, speaking a langauge of a different branch of turkic. it's again
likely due to their lifestyle.
: some geographic element in the division. Did the original nation have
Yusuf B Gursey
: in article <hrpdougg8ga7bbct9...@4ax.com>,
: padraig breathnach <padr...@iol.ie> wrote:
yes at some point religious affiliation and linguistic affiliation
polarized in this region.
: --
: [e-mail address jdo...@math.ucr.edu]