Goblet of Fire discrepancies -- help!
Jemimah
Crouch all along. WHY did he make a special effort to teach all the
students how to defend themselves against the imperius and cruciatus
curses? If Moody/Barty Crouch Jr. hadn't taught Harry Potter how to
resist the imperius curse he wouldn't have known how to resist
Voldemort when Voldemort tried to use it on him. Help! This is
bugging me.
Lisa Hicks
The debate rages. I see two plausible alternatives; they might both be
the case, but each by itself could work.
1. Crouch Jr. knows that Karkaroff was a Death Eater and knows that
Karkaroff's school teaches the Dark Arts. He was probably worried that
either Karkaroff or one of his students might try to put the Imperius
Curse on Harry sometime during the tournament to force Harry to lose.
And, since Crouch Jr.'s goal is for Harry to win, that would be A Bad
Thing. So he teaches Harry to throw off the Imperius Curse in order to
improve Harry's chances of winning.
2. Crouch Jr. misjudged. He wanted to try out the Imperius Curse on
Harry to test Harry's strength, just to kind of get a gauge things for
Voldemort. He didn't expect Harry to be able to do anything about it.
But he could. And the entire class could see Harry trying to throw off
the Curse. Now, if the real Moody had seen that a student had the
potential to learn to throw off the Curse, he'd definitely have done
anything he could to help the student to reach that potential. And
Dumbledore knows this about the real Moody, and Crouch Jr. knows that
Dumbledore knows it. If Crouch Jr. doesn't teach Harry how to throw off
the Curse when Harry shows potential and Dumbledore finds out that he
didn't teach him, Dumbledore will start to suspect that something's
wrong. So, in order to keep "in character," Crouch Jr. is forced to do
what the real Moody would have done.
Those are my two best guesses. I'm sure you'll be hearing others, too.
Lisa H
Rick Rollins
"Lisa Hicks" <lhh...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote in message
news:3C578A6C...@midway.uchicago.edu...
Didn't Barty Jr indicate that Dumbledore wanted the students to know
what it was like ? I'm sure that if Dumbledore gives instructions to his
staff, the staff attempts to follow (see Snape and Harry's Potions exam).
The fake Moody wasn't going to test Dumbledore on this point.
Brand
"Jemimah" <solt...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
news:e24785a8.02012...@posting.google.com...
I always figured that to stay in character, he HAD to show the kids about
those curses. After all, that is why Dumbledor got Moody there. To teach
stuff like that. Had he not done something like that, he would have been
found out a lot sooner.
Dai
"Brand" <rbr...@mtayr.heartland.net> wrote in message
news:a395mf$1qn$1...@ins22.netins.net...
have been part of the charade. I doubt he would purposely hurt Draco Malfoy
only to have to answer to Lucius at a later date. Unless of course Crouch
Jr can't stand Lucius and saw it as a way of getting him back for something.
Trond Michelsen
> Crouch Jr's treatment of fellow Voldemort supporter Lucius Malfoy's son must
> have been part of the charade. I doubt he would purposely hurt Draco Malfoy
> only to have to answer to Lucius at a later date. Unless of course Crouch
> Jr can't stand Lucius and saw it as a way of getting him back for something.
Of course he can't stand Lucius. He HATES Death Eaters that rejected
Voldemort when he was defeated. He also did it to scare off Draco, or
as he says himself:
--8<--
Who frightened off every person I thought might try to hurt you or
prevent you from winning the tournament? I did.
--8<--
--
tm
200...@wongfaye.com
playin his part good
i had a feeling something was up with him when he killed the spider
it was kinda mean
and used the illegal spells/curses
i guess they are just illegal to use on talking creatures
(even through it was just a spider)
the whole book i thought snape was the one who put up the deatheaters sign
man was i wrong
but i got a feelin that snape is a sleeper of some type he may just be doin
good hoping to take over the dark arts courses when he aquires that position
he will be in a position to gather troops
Lauren J Levi, MCP
--
Lauren J Levi, MCP
"Lisa Hicks" <lhh...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote in message
news:3C578A6C...@midway.uchicago.edu...
>
>
Tony Donadio
news:Z5V58.1845$TY3.6...@monolith.news.easynet.net...
> Crouch Jr's treatment of fellow Voldemort supporter Lucius Malfoy's son
must have been part of the charade. I doubt he would purposely hurt Draco
Malfoy only to have to answer to Lucius at a later date. Unless of course
Crouch Jr can't stand Lucius and saw it as a way of getting him back for
something.
I think closer to the latter. Crouch was openly contemptuous of the other
Death Eaters for abandoning Voldemort. Draco was pulling a wand on Harry
behind his back, so Crouch had to stop him; I'd guess his naturally
vindictive manner and his disdain for Draco's father led him to be cruel
about it. Plus, he may have figured that publicly humiliating Harry's
arch-enemy would be a good way to get on Harry's good side (and eventually
get him to trust him).
qwerty
> "Dai" <d...@me.com> wrote in message
> news:Z5V58.1845$TY3.6...@monolith.news.easynet.net...
>
> > Crouch Jr's treatment of fellow Voldemort supporter Lucius Malfoy's son
> must have been part of the charade. I doubt he would purposely hurt Draco
> Malfoy only to have to answer to Lucius at a later date. Unless of course
> Crouch Jr can't stand Lucius and saw it as a way of getting him back for
> something.
I think it's as simple as this: Assume for a minute that Snape is to
be trusted. We know that Dumbledore and McGonagall are, and we know
that big D could beat Voldemort if it ever came to open conflict
"...he could see why it was said that Dumbledore was the only wizard
Voldemort ever really feared." GoF.
Thus faux-Moody has at least three people extremely hostile to
Voldemort looking after Harry, at least two of whom
(Dumbledore/McGonagall) care about him deeply. If he doesn't stay
EXACTLY in character, Dumbledore (at least) will nail him. Therefore
he had to act EXACTLY as Moody would (because Dumbledore knows Moody
so well).
Radek Adamec
Ah, don't worry about this. If you pretend to be a teacher, you have
to teach. Voldy can handle anything that's on the four-graders'
curriculum.
What worries me more is why didn't Moody simply turn any common object
into a portkey and hand it to Harry rather than go through all the
trouble with the Triwizard tournament? My explanation is that Hogwarts
was protected from unauthorized access, so you couldn't apparate or
use a portkey there, but the trophy had an exception for traditional
reasons (so the winner would travel for the awards ceremony
triumphantly the moment he touched the trophy). The only way to kidnap
someone from Hogwarts was reprogram this only functional portkey.
Still, I think Moody says he turned the trophy into a portkey rather
than change its destination, but this could be explained as a vague
statement.
What's the standard explanation?
Radek
Richard Sliwa
<snip>
> What worries me more is why didn't Moody simply turn any common object
> into a portkey and hand it to Harry rather than go through all the
> trouble with the Triwizard tournament? My explanation is that Hogwarts
> was protected from unauthorized access, so you couldn't apparate or
> use a portkey there, but the trophy had an exception for traditional
> reasons (so the winner would travel for the awards ceremony
> triumphantly the moment he touched the trophy). The only way to kidnap
> someone from Hogwarts was reprogram this only functional portkey.
> Still, I think Moody says he turned the trophy into a portkey rather
> than change its destination, but this could be explained as a vague
> statement.
>
> What's the standard explanation?
That subject has been debated to and fro ad nauseam. :-) Most people seem
to explain it along these lines:
Voldy needs to get his power-base back together again, and Harry is
famous for having defeated him as a baby. Some people also know that Hary
thwarted his attempts to get the Philosopher's Stone, so Harry must be
quite good.
That's likely to create a lot of doubt in the magical community about
whether or not Voldy really is all that powerful, if a baby and then a
teenager can overcome him
Voldy thus wanted Harry to be shown to be the most powerful wizard of his
generation and yet be defeated, so he rigs the Tournament to ensure that
Harry *is* shown to be the best of the best.
Killing Harry in front of the Death Eaters would have dispelled all doubt
among his own followers that he (Voldy) was the cream of the crop, and
also removed all hope in the magical community at large that he could be
beaten due to finishing off The Boy Who Lived. Not to mention that he'd
taken him from under the nose of Dumbledore, the acknowledged most powerful
wizard of the previous generation, and the only person everyone thinks is
more powerful than Voldy.
Furthermore, as the Portkey was programmed to return to the
(international!) wizarding community gathered at the entrance to the maze,
there is further speculation that Voldy would have used it to cause havoc
there and then.
In one move, Voldy's
1) reborn
2) killed Harry, despite having shown him to be the best (thus Voldy's
demonstrably even more powerful)
3) reinvigorated his Death Eaters
4) decimated Hogwarts (despite its protection measures)
5) hopefully killed Dumbledore
6) probably killed the MoM
and God knows what besides.
The one snail in the ointment is that all of those objectives could have
been achieved at any of the Tournament Tests, and he didn't have to wait
until the last one to be completed. But he also might not have been ready
to be reborn until then, either.
Of course, all of this is conjecture, and it would have been nice to have
had Barty answer a question about it. With any luck, JKR will explain all
of this in one of the further books.
Jaak Suurpere
>
> What worries me more is why didn't Moody simply turn any common object
> into a portkey and hand it to Harry rather than go through all the
> trouble with the Triwizard tournament?
<snip>
>
> What's the standard explanation?
>
I don´t know what´s "standard" - but Moody dropped a line about making
it look like an accident.
If Harry were portkeyed away by common objects, this would need
explanation, and none would be ready.
If Harry disappeared at a task, the suspicion would be that the task
was screwed up.
Radek Adamec
> On 31 Jan 2002, Radek Adamec said:
>
> <snip>
>
> > What worries me more is why didn't Moody simply turn any common object
> > into a portkey and hand it to Harry rather than go through all the
> > trouble with the Triwizard tournament?
> >
> > What's the standard explanation?
>
> That subject has been debated to and fro ad nauseam. :-)
I was crouching while asking this question. But I thought I should ask this
one first before moving on to the subject of when book 5 would be released :-)
Most people seem
> to explain it along these lines:
>
<snip>
>
> In one move, Voldy's
> 1) reborn
> 2) killed Harry, despite having shown him to be the best (thus Voldy's
> demonstrably even more powerful)
> 3) reinvigorated his Death Eaters
> 4) decimated Hogwarts (despite its protection measures)
> 5) hopefully killed Dumbledore
> 6) probably killed the MoM
>
> and God knows what besides.
>
> The one snail in the ointment is that all of those objectives could have
> been achieved at any of the Tournament Tests, and he didn't have to wait
> until the last one to be completed. But he also might not have been ready
> to be reborn until then, either.
>
> Of course, all of this is conjecture, and it would have been nice to have
> had Barty answer a question about it. With any luck, JKR will explain all
> of this in one of the further books.
Fair enough, but could be better. Real experts are usually not vain.
Voldy is good enough to realize when he can afford to impress and when
he should be practical. Winning the Triwizard tounamant does not mean that much:
it just shows you are a good student. Any adult wizard shoud be able
to cope with the tasks. Voldy could call the Death eaters at any time, so
why wait for the third task?
Hopefully JKR will come up with a convincing technical reason in the future
books. We should keep asking her about this :-)
Radek
Rick Rollins
"Radek Adamec" <rad...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:acffa7ab.02013...@posting.google.com...
> Richard Sliwa <ju...@plum.cream.org> wrote in message
news:<Xns91A782A...@195.8.69.41>...
> > On 31 Jan 2002, Radek Adamec said:
> >
> > <snip>
> >
>
> Voldy is good enough to realize when he can afford to impress and when
> he should be practical. Winning the Triwizard tounamant does not mean that
much:
> it just shows you are a good student. Any adult wizard shoud be able
> to cope with the tasks. Voldy could call the Death eaters at any time, so
> why wait for the third task?
>
Somehow I think the first task would have been pretty dificult for even
the
best of adult wizards. Sirius was apparently one of the top students of
his
day, and Krum's solution was the same as his. Krum lost points because
of the consequences. I suspect most wizards would have met with Cedric's
result, or worse; almost no adult wizards could really have expected to
succeed
with Harry's solution.
As for Voldy being good enough -- I'm not sure he has much of a sense
of what his own limitations are. That's one of the effects of wielding
great
power -- it's hard to know where the boundaries are before crossing them.
And as Voldy seems to love the response when he abuses his power, I'm
sure the reasons stated would play very strongly in his mind.
Tony Donadio
news:Xns91A782A...@195.8.69.41...
> The one snail in the ointment is that all of those objectives could have
been achieved at any of the Tournament Tests, and he didn't have to wait
until the last one to be completed. But he also might not have been ready to
be reborn until then, either.
Except the "Harry wins the Triwizard Tournament and is shown to be the best"
objective. That couldn't have been achieved until the end of the last trial,
when Harry actually _wins_ the tournament.
Joy
rad...@my-deja.com (Radek Adamec) wrote in message news:<acffa7ab.02013...@posting.google.com>...
> Richard Sliwa <ju...@plum.cream.org> wrote in message news:<Xns91A782A...@195.8.69.41>...
>
> Fair enough, but could be better. Real experts are usually not vain.
> Voldy is good enough to realize when he can afford to impress and when
> he should be practical.
While I agree that real experts usually don't feel the need to show
off, I must respectfully disagree about Voldy's vanity. I get the
impression that he is quite vain. For example, he could have killed
Harry quite easily as soon as he was reborn, but instead, he waited
until his Death Eaters were all there so they could watch him kill
Harry in a duel. IIRC, his reason for this was so that there would be
no doubt in anyone's mind as to who was the better wizard--this
definitely sounds like showing off to me, and I think it lends support
to the idea that Voldy wanted Harry to appear to be the best wizard of
his generation through winning the Tri-Wizard Tourny. Incidentally,
it's interesting that Voldy did NOT kill Harry in this "fair"
fight--he wanted to eliminate doubts in his followers' minds, but
instead, he probably created or increased their doubts.
Joy =)!
Cassandra
-
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--
- and maybe also eliminate doubts on himself?
I guess it is an arrogant character that things so much that nobody can beat
him... that sometimes he makes mistakes
"Joy" <joyr...@mindspring.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
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