improved your body image through dance?
annie...@my-deja.com
working on an article about women who have developed positive body images
through activities like dance. If this sounds like you (and you're between 20
and 40 years old), and if you'd be willing to talk about your experience,
please e-mail me at annie...@aol.com and I'll give you more details.
Thanks-- Annie
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Matyas Sustik
question is to other readers I guess...
What did she meant by 'positive body images'. Is it a scientific term of looking
good/healthy/sexy? :-) I hope I will not have to buy the magazine to find it
out. ; /
Oh, but which one, she did not mention that...
Matyas
Bob Wheatley
Matyas,
Read closer.Her target audience was women.It's apparently an article
about women and their "self-image".Besides,if you are concerned about
it,I think your hips look just fine in slacks.<grin>
--
Bob Wheatley
Matyas Sustik
> Matyas,
> Read closer.Her target audience was women.It's apparently an article
> about women and their "self-image".
I am aware of that. But I thought that I might switch from the Swimsuit
Illustrated... :o
But seriously my interest was languistic, was about the expression
'positive body images'.
Matyas
Bob Wheatley
Matyas,
You know how women are.It does'nt matter how beautiful they are,they
seem to still think they are fat and ugly.I personally think that god
never made a bad one, but most of them always seem to have "negative"
thoughts about their "body image". The original poster may have meant
something else,but I think she was looking for women that have found
activities (like dance) that has helped them feel good about their
bodies.(Boy,if they could only see themselves through our eyes)<g>
YarrowBlac
>--
>Bob Wheatley
>
>
But, unfortunatly, we get to see ourselves through the advertisers eyes and
"men's" magazines eyes and Hollywoods eyes. And we learn that a real woman's
body is not the "ideal". We watch your (general not specific) eyes and heads
swivel when the "ideal" body walks by. We learn.
Leanne
Peter Renzland
>But seriously my interest was languistic, was about the expression
>'positive body images'.
Languistic -- not exactly my idea of positive body image :-)
Swing, Joy, and Lindy Hop
-- , , , ,
Peter Renzland Peter @Dancing .Org \_@_ {)/ (}, 9 \@ {)/
Toronto 416 323-1300 HTTP://Dancing.Org \ /\_._,<_/ (>_/7 /\_._,<_\
Je danse donc je suis Hog Town Hep Cats \ /_\ /_\ /) /\ /_\
Scandi Alpine Celtic Jazz: Lindy-Hop /) /( / )( \ ' ) ( `
Icono Clast
> Bob Wheatley wrote:
> > Read closer.Her target audience was women.It's apparently an
> > article about women and their "self-image".
> I am aware of that. But I thought that I might switch from the
> Swimsuit Illustrated... :o
>
> But seriously my interest was languistic, was about the expression
> 'positive body images'.
It's Yuppie-type New Age Euphespeakbabbleism that I find difficult to
understand and suspect they don't really understand. You don't
understand because it isn't your primary language. I don't understand
because it comes from a very strange culture.
What I think it means is, when you look at your naked self in a
mirror, if you do not dislike what you see you have a positive body
image. It could mean something quite different. They talk funny with
one hand stuck to an ear. And you think you can learn better English
in Texas?!?
Bob Wheatley said:
> (Boy,if they could only see themselves through our eyes)<g>
I agree with you, Bob, that they're all varying degrees of lovely but
seeing themselves as we wee them? UhUh. Not such a good idea.
--
ICONO CLAST: A San Franciscan in (where else?) San Francisco.
Michelle Dick
Bob Wheatley <bob_wh...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>You know how women are.It does'nt matter how beautiful they are,they
>seem to still think they are fat and ugly.I personally think that god
>never made a bad one, but most of them always seem to have "negative"
>thoughts about their "body image".
Interestingly, I thought I had a pretty decent body until I took up
dancing. Now, especially at ballroom dance places, I feel fat, ugly,
and undesirable. It's about the only really bad part about dancing.
In fact, I bet more body image problems are created and exacerbated by
dance than diminished by it (esp given the level of eating disorders
in the modern dance and ballet communities). It isn't enough to make
me quit, but, for sanity sake, I've cut way back. It's funny, I used
to look down on women who had bad self-images, but I sure have a lot
more understanding now. It sucks.
>The original poster may have meant
>something else,but I think she was looking for women that have found
>activities (like dance) that has helped them feel good about their
>bodies.(Boy,if they could only see themselves through our eyes)<g>
What made me feel good was dancing at a salsa club in DC where there
were a lot of middle eastern and caribbean men. There were enough
there that thought this large woman looked good as she was, that I was
kept dancing nonstop all night. I felt beautiful and sexy. (and
repulsed at times, for with this good attention also comes the bad)
The reverse is true at ballroom dance and hustle venues -- strangers
rarely ask me, and I'm frequently turned down by men who appear to
only want to dance with thin beautiful women. I try not to let my
emotional state and self worth depend on how I am treated, but it's
hard, very hard. I keep trying, though.
Even if a woman isn't fat enough to start getting rejections and no
requests, she notices that the fat women don't get to dance much and
the beautiful ones have people racing to ask them to dance. This is
the germ that can create body image problems and/or nourish them. The
problem is that we *do* see ourselves through men's collective eyes.
We notice that the fat women don't get asked much and a cute young
thing never lacks for partners. Alas, an individual man can't do much
about the reactions of men in general. And the solution of not letting
your emotions be affected by it is hard to implement even when you
intellectually know it is the only rational solution.
--
Michelle Dick art...@rahul.net East Palo Alto, CA
Matyas Sustik
> thoughts about their "body image". The original poster may have meant
> something else,but I think she was looking for women that have found
> activities (like dance) that has helped them feel good about their
> bodies.(Boy,if they could only see themselves through our eyes)<g>
Thanks. It reminded me a top lady dancer whose complexion I had not found
appealing at first but then I saw her dancing and that put everything into
a different context and then soon I found her interesting, then even
agreeable.
Matyas
tke...@rochelle.net
I think female "body images" are often static - how they look in a photo, or
how they appear in a mirror. We do live in an age that celebrates photogenic
models. Many women cannot feel good about their body image unless it
approaches perfection - and percieved "flaws" will usually be revealed by
examining a static representation.
But a mirror or a photo never captures our true essence; we are dynamic, we
flow through time and space. Through dancing, we realize the grace, energy,
and musicality our bodies contain; the static image is just a fleeting
shadow of the dynamic image.
Tom Kehoe
Bob Wheatley
Icono Clast <ICl...@JPS.net> wrote:
> It's Yuppie-type New Age Euphespeakbabbleism that I find difficult to
> understand and suspect they don't really understand. You don't
> understand because it isn't your primary language. I don't understand
> because it comes from a very strange culture.
> What I think it means is, when you look at your naked self in a
> mirror, if you do not dislike what you see you have a positive body
> image. It could mean something quite different. They talk funny with
> one hand stuck to an ear. And you think you can learn better English
> in Texas?!?
Heyyyyyyyyyyyyy!Careful there pahtna.
> Bob Wheatley said:
> > (Boy,if they could only see themselves through our eyes)<g>
>
> I agree with you, Bob, that they're all varying degrees of lovely but
> seeing themselves as we wee them? UhUh. Not such a good idea.
Uh Ike,I ain't into golden showers dude.Man,you californians are freaky!
<grin>
> ICONO CLAST: A San Franciscan in (where else?) San Francisco.
>
>
--
Bob Wheatley
Bob Wheatley
Michelle Dick <art...@rahul.net> wrote:
> In article <7ohljq$5k0$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> Bob Wheatley <bob_wh...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >You know how women are.It does'nt matter how beautiful they are,they
> >seem to still think they are fat and ugly.I personally think that god
> >never made a bad one, but most of them always seem to have "negative"
>
> dancing. Now, especially at ballroom dance places, I feel fat, ugly,
> and undesirable. It's about the only really bad part about dancing.
> In fact, I bet more body image problems are created and exacerbated by
> dance than diminished by it (esp given the level of eating disorders
> in the modern dance and ballet communities). It isn't enough to make
> me quit, but, for sanity sake, I've cut way back. It's funny, I used
> to look down on women who had bad self-images, but I sure have a lot
> more understanding now. It sucks.
>
> >something else,but I think she was looking for women that have found
> >activities (like dance) that has helped them feel good about their
Michelle,
If your feet are half as gifted as your apparent intellect,I sure hope
I have an oppurtunity to share a dance with you someday.But on this
subject,there is no way that I or any man can have much credibility in
a discussion about us. I only know how I look at things. I did not
start dancing to "pick up chicks". When I'm out social dancing,I try
my best to get to as many different ladies as possible.I'm sure that
there have been times when I did not get to someone,that they may have
felt that I thought they were not attractive enough or whatever.
That saddens me because nothing could be farther from the truth.I know
somewhere along the way I have danced with physically beautiful women,
but the only ones I can really remember were the beautiful dancers.
Michelle Dick
Bob Wheatley <bob_wh...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>When I'm out social dancing,I try my best to get to as many different
FWIW, the posters to RAD I have met in person have tended to be among
the most gracious, most friendly, most considerate dancers. Were that
more were like you all!
Keep on keeping on,
Icono Clast
> Michelle,
> If your feet are half as gifted as your apparent intellect,I sure
> hope I have an oppurtunity to share a dance with you someday.
I have danced with Michelle. At the time, was was very good for one
who claimed to be a beginner. She could Lead as well as she could
Follow. I haven't danced with her since because I've not seen her but
I look forward to the next opportunity.
> somewhere along the way I have danced with physically beautiful
> women, but the only ones I can really remember were the beautiful
> dancers.
On my recent trip through the MidWest the host of an evening of dance
suggested I choose one with whom I'd twice danced for one of my
favorite dances. I said "I won't dance with her again. She's lovely
to look at, nicely dressed, beautifully groom'd and might be the best
Follower here but she has yet to acknowledge that I, as a person,
exist. She wouldn't recognize me in the parking lot. I'm just a
source of choreography for her. To hell with her!" The host, knowing
her well, smiled full understanding.
Quite some time ago I suggested to Michelle, here, that she get
another mirror. She's realistic about herself, yes, but far too
harsh. She's not fat; she's a big girl, not a fat one. There is a
difference.
There is a fat girl who occasionally visits here and she knows it
and is comfortable with her body. She dresses wonderfully, very
colorfully with imaginative cosmetique and accessories. She likes
showing great expanses of pleasant to look upon flesh. She's not a
great dancer but she's a great-fun person.
--
Laura La Gassa
super amazed. Unless you mean "tall" and "with
actual hips" when "big" is said.
I saw her compete last weekend and I thought she was
long limbed and quite slender.
And this is the whole body image thing -- different
people have different ideals, and there's no sense in
pleasing anyone but yourself because you'll never manage
to measure up to anyone else's opinions, good or bad.
There's a lot of skinny girls doing Latin these days,
but look at Olga Sukachov -- she's rounded and curvy
and in amazing shape and very successful in her
partnership with her husband Dima. So having curves
rather than sharp edges isn't necessarily a liability.
As for me, my body image -- i.e. the way I feel about
my own body -- has improved drastically in the two years
I've been dancing. As my muscle tone, balance and
control improved I stared feeling very comfortable in
my own body, and graceful and powerful besides. As my
dancing progressed, I started taking an interest in other
ways to improve my health, appearance, and well-being.
But rather than feeling pressured to do so by comparing
myself to others and feeling lacking, the changes came
as a desire to improve my dancing and the expression of
who I am. I've gone from someone who never gave a thought
about what I ate and never exercised to someone who now
realizes that everything I feed my body is important and who
dances 10+ hours a week. I feel strong and healthy and
slowly but surely my body is reshaping itself and improving
its cardiovascular condition. For me, dancing has given
me a whole new positive relationship with my body.
I'd write more, but I have to get down to the studio and
get a couple of hours of practice in :-)
Laura
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
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Bob Wheatley
Icono Clast <ICl...@JPS.net> wrote:
> Quite some time ago I suggested to Michelle, here, that she get
> another mirror. She's realistic about herself, yes, but far too
> harsh. She's not fat; she's a big girl, not a fat one. There is a
> difference.
> There is a fat girl who occasionally visits here and she knows
it
> and is comfortable with her body. She dresses wonderfully, very
> colorfully with imaginative cosmetique and accessories. She likes
> showing great expanses of pleasant to look upon flesh. She's not a
> great dancer but she's a great-fun person.
> --
> ICONO CLAST: A San Franciscan in (where else?) San Francisco.
Ike,
Your right.She should get another mirror.From what I can see from her
postings,she is a beautiful person. She,and most females,do seem to
always be too harsh on their appearance.I've been married for almost
23 years to a beautiful woman (by anyones srandards) that has always
beat herself up about her appearance.At times,it can grow a little
tiresome,but thats ok,I don't mind telling her she's beautiful.I don't
know what your perspective is, but mine is this:I have an athletic
body,I'm 6'4" and 200 lbs. I see men all the time who have much better
bodies than I do,and I may even be a little envious.However, there is
such obvious futility in wishing for something that you cannot change,
my mind won't let me go there.Besides, I'm sure there are other men
who may feel they have "less" than I,and would change places if they
could.And besides that,it's hard to feel bad about yourself if your
busy counting your blessings.There is always someone who is "worse"
off.
Michelle Dick
Bob Wheatley <bob_wh...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>In article <37AD39F0...@JPS.net>,
> Icono Clast <ICl...@JPS.net> wrote:
>> Quite some time ago I suggested to Michelle, here, that she get
>> another mirror.
>Your right.She should get another mirror.
You guys are sweet, but you need to realize that the mirror I am using
is the reaction of men in general to me (not specific individual men,
not you or Icono). I dearly wish to throw away this horrid mirror,
but everytime I think I've broken it and flung the pieces away, I find
another mirror just like it in its place.
It is no fun to have one's self view be so fickle and so seemingly
controlled by others (i.e. compare with how I said I felt beautiful
and sexy when dancing in a multicultural setting where there were men
who clearly appreciated larger, curvier women and expressed it in their
dance preferences).
I'm ordinarily no social butterfly and don't go for popularity per se,
and with romantic liasons, one only needs one (or just a few :-)), so
until I took up dancing, my size was not an issue to me. But with
social dancing, my success in finding partners depends not on the one
or few, but on the reactions of men in general. In other settings, my
reception (where it depends on looks) is set by individuals and the
inherent diversity of people works in my favor. It is when I am affected
by the mean that I get into trouble. Ultimately, my attachment to
this mirror is a combination of this and my inherent competitivenes
and joy in dancing. If I could only be happy dancing fewer songs at a
dance or not be so affected by a high turn-down rate (I can usually
dance as much as I want if I'm willing to be relentless in asking
despite high rejection), I could probably get rid of this evil mirror
for good.
Other alternatives are to give up dancing or to move to an area with men
who, on average, appreciate larger women. But these two alternatives
I do not like as I'd rather continue my fight not to let the actions
of the thin-loving-majority affect my emotions rather than admit
defeat.
Please, it is not so easy to "just not let it affect me" (which is
what "get another mirror" amounts to). I am trying. It is a
struggle. And I do now cut back on dance (with its evil mirror) in
favor of other activities which have much more compassionate mirrors.
Experiences with other mirrors does help me to resist looking in the
dance mirror.
YarrowBlac
>favor of other activities which have much more compassionate mirrors.
>Experiences with other mirrors does help me to resist looking in the
>dance mirror.
>
>--
>Michelle Dick
Michelle - You are a wise woman. Every thing you have posted on this topic I
so agree with! And I have found a group with a mirror I like! lol I am also
active in a Renassaince recreation group. And there, I have found people much
more accepting of people not in the 'norm' group. And you are right, it does
help me deal with the dance world rejections when I think of my Ren friends.
And another part of this whole discussion - When I wear more form fitting,
revealing clothes, I get asked to dance more than when I wear looser, more
concealing clothes. Hummmm. Wonder why that is??!!?? NOT! Oh well.
Leanne
Icono Clast
> Icono Clast <ICl...@JPS.net> wrote:
> > Quite some time ago I suggested to Michelle, here, that she get
> > another mirror.
> Your right.She should get another mirror.
> I don't know what your perspective is, but mine is this:I have an
> athletic body,
I don't. And I'm getting fatter by the day, dammit.
> I'm 6'4" and 200 lbs.
I'm not.
> it's hard to feel bad about yourself if your busy counting your
> blessings.There is always someone who is "worse" off.
Yup. My body does what I demand of it. I have nothing about which to
brag (good genes, maybe) or to complain (an occasional pain, maybe).
Michelle Dick
Michelle Dick <art...@rahul.net> wrote:
>(i.e. compare with how I said I felt beautiful
>and sexy when dancing in a multicultural setting where there were men
>who clearly appreciated larger, curvier women and expressed it in their
>dance preferences).
BTW, other dance places were I don't get caught up in negatve body
issue emotions have been Stanford dances and same-sex dance nights at
Metronome in SF. In neither of these places does the average male
preference for thinner women get expressed much in how often which
women are asked to dance and which turned down. In these settings,
neither exceptionally positive nor negative feelings about my body are
stirred. They are great places to dance -- I typically dance all I
want, am regularly asked to dance and almost never turned down. And,
at the same-sex swing nights that goes for both the men and women.
Come to think of it, same about Stanford.
Ironically, other places that don't stir much body disgust in me are
most salsa clubs, that is, the ones that aren't as diverse as the DC
club I danced at where I was continually asked to dance. Typically,
at salsa clubs, I am almost never asked and almost always turned down
if I do. This doesn't usually make me feel bad about my body. Why?
Because it is essentially the same for everyone else -- people
generally only dance with their friends there or with someone they
intend to ask out. I see all sizes of women on the dance floor and
many thin beautiful women dance not at all. So, bodywise, I don't
feel bad, though I always bring a partner so as to have fun.
Icono Clast
to you, Michelle, but to women in general.]
Michelle Dick wrote:
> the average male preference for thinner women
Whence comes this impression? Vogue? Ms.? Good Housekeeping? Bride?
If you want a good idea of the kinds of bodies most men really
prefer, look at some men's magazines, even pornographic ones. You're
not likely to see the likes of Twiggy or whoever is her equivalent
today.
I do have specific preferences but they're not particularly
important. What I like is good proportions, whatever they might be.
That could be 150 pounds on a five-foot frame or 85 pounds on a
five-foot frame. Each type can be equally attractive to me but,
generally, I would prefer one to the other.
Please don't mis-understand me here. We're talking about bodies, not
people!
George Deliz
poster, the magazine writer, was asking. I understood her to be asking for
testimonials of how gaining mastery over one's body in the form of dance,
for example, has improved one's body image.
The discussion immediately turned to the social dance specific topic of how
women are percieved by males at social dances and the general cultural
topic of how that perception by males affects the body image of women.
I suspect that even women who have been frustrated by men's proclivity to
prefer thin attractive dance partners have had their body image improved by
learning to dance well.
Surely, the mastery of a physical discipline like dancing must have a
positive effect on one's self image, including body image.
George Deliz
Ming Mar
>If you want a good idea of the kinds of bodies most men really
>prefer, look at some men's magazines, even pornographic ones. You're
>not likely to see the likes of Twiggy or whoever is her equivalent
>today.
When was that last you bought a stroke mag, or even looked at one?
Nobody buys them anymore. Nowadays, horny young men use videos.
(Well, anyways, that's what they tell me.)
The 60's were three decades ago. Today's young adults aren't going to
have a clue who Twiggy was.
Laura La Gassa
> I don't think anyone has yet addressed the question
> which the original poster, the magazine writer,
> was asking. I understood her to be asking for
> testimonials of how gaining mastery over one's body in
> the form of dance, for example, has improved one's
> body image.
I thought I addressed it when I talked about how, as
my muscle control, tone, and balance improved, I started
feeling much more graceful and powerful and comfortable
in my own body, and have been inspired to take better
care of myself.
I'll add that my posture -- which can be as much a result
of how you feel as a result of your bones and muscles --
has improved drastically, to the point where I actually
am measured as being an inch and a half taller than before
I started dancing.
I was never one of those people who looked in the mirror
and went "yuk" at myself, but I did often feel kind of
gawky, that I couldn't make my body do exactly what I
wanted it to. I felt ill-at-ease, sort of like how you
might feel if your shoes didn't fit right. But after
dancing for two years, I feel a sense of connectedness and
control that I never felt before, that in turn gives me
a sense of ease. I feel like I really am *in* my body,
and not just some consciousness that got plunked down
someplace. So many women speak of being at war with their
own bodies, I feel like over the past year or so I've made
friends with it, I feel more whole and integrated. I like
who and what I am, rather than looking at someone else and
thinking "I wish I had her waist" or other such rot. I
threw out all my self-help and diet books because I realized
that I had the control and power to figure out what to do
with myself for myself, and I didn't need to be reading
someone else's advice on the situation anymore.
Dancing has been pretty powerful medicine for me.
Ben Gamble
|Nobody buys them anymore. Nowadays, horny young men use videos.
... he said, on the Internet.
--
Ben Gamble "It's always heartwarming to see a prejudice defeated
gam...@idiom.com by a deeper prejudice." -- Lone Star
Michelle Dick
> [The following is not directed specifically
> to you, Michelle, but to women in general.]
>
>Michelle Dick wrote:
>> the average male preference for thinner women
>
>Whence comes this impression? Vogue? Ms.? Good Housekeeping? Bride?
From being rejected by men at dances who later ask thin women
to dance. From noticing that when I took my housemate to dance (she'd
never been and she is young, thin, and very beautiful), men were
falling all over themselves asking her to dance. From noticing that
the women on the sidelines at dances tended to be of higher average
weight than those dancing. From noticing that a big friendly smile
appears on a man when a thin beautiful women approaches him to ask to
dance, while when I do, he tries to avoid eye contact and move away.
And from noticing this *doesn't* happen at gay and lesbian dances nor
does it happen amoung dancers from cultures without this average
western preference.
Outside of dancing, when I am in settings with higher percentages of
non-western men, I find myself having to fend off attentions from men.
The average western preference for thin women is not universal. It
also is not universal among individual western men. But, since outside
of dancing, I care not about the average man, I am fine.
Also please note that I said nothing of body image problems caused by
the media -- some women do have body image problems caused by that --
I did not. I never had body image problems until I noticed that my
body shape affected my pleasure at dance by how often I am asked and
rejected. And though the solution is not to let it affect me, I am
finding this one and only reasonable solution hard to implement though
I am committed to do so.
Michelle Dick
George Deliz <george...@lmco.com> wrote:
>Surely, the mastery of a physical discipline like dancing must have a
>positive effect on one's self image, including body image.
That's why I run, swim, bike, compete in triathlons, do taijiquan,
have done some karate and aikido, inline skating, and rock climb.
These things *are* very effective at repairing the negative body image
I acquired when I took up social dancing. It is a thrill to see body
improvment, look around and see everyone else of all sizes improving,
and get external validation for your physical improvment and not your
looks. And especially so for people like me who learn physical skills
very slowly.
About the same time I took up dancing, I got the fool idea to do a
triathlon. I could swim and bike, but never ran. I tried to run and
threw up after less than minute. I put the triathlon idea out of my
mind, but was so dismayed at my lack of fitness that I started
walking. Faster and faster for longer and longer. I wore a heart
rate monitor watch and after 8 months or so I found I could no longer
get my heart rate up high enough just by walking. So I tried running
again and didn't throw up. I continued running and 5 months later
completed my first triathlon. I was not the fattest woman in that
triathlon, the encouragment from the other fitter triathletes along
the way was incredible, the volunteers were incredible, the support
was wonderfully excessive! I was not last (bottom 5% though), and
there was more cheering for the last person who finished than the
first!
Rock climbing is fun too, not least of all because you have to belay
one another and literally trust your life to your belayer. Your looks
matter not at all -- only your skill and attentiveness. So what if I
can still only climb 5.8 or so, I can belay someone of any level.
I recently joined a running club filled with people of all sizes and
abilities and I couldn't believe the attention they lavished on
newcomers. It's probably the reason they have nearly 500 members. Of
course I joined the very first day I met them. Excessive joy in
physical movement and the physical movement of *everyone*, and the
improvement of everyone no matter how fast or slow, is addictive and
healing and I can't get enough of it.
Things like this are a great antidote to the dancing social pressures.
Andy Broomsgove
Dick) wrote:
> BTW, other dance places were I don't get caught up in negatve body
> issue emotions have been Stanford dances and same-sex dance nights at
> Metronome in SF. In neither of these places does the average male
> preference for thinner women get expressed much in how often which
> women are asked to dance and which turned down. In these settings,
> neither exceptionally positive nor negative feelings about my body are
> stirred. They are great places to dance -- I typically dance all I
> want, am regularly asked to dance and almost never turned down. And,
> at the same-sex swing nights that goes for both the men and women.
> Come to think of it, same about Stanford.
Michelle, it's a bit difficult to know what to say - we've never met so I
don't know what you really look like - but others say that you are not bad
looking and I guess you might be being a little oversensitive about your
looks.
I just wonder whether your body language is conveying the wrong message at
the events you get turned down/not asked at? It's difficult to describe
exactly how somebody should behave to maximise their dance potential, but
from a man's point of view, one of the criteria that I use in deciding
whether to ask a particular woman to dance (especially a stranger) is how
easy it is to actually get to her. If you are stuck at a table somewhere
at the back in deep conversation with a group of other women then I'm much
less likely to ask you than if you are sat at the edge of (or very close
to) the dance floor watching the dancing or, depending on the venue, even
stood at the edge looking like you want to dance.
I mention that because I once had a woman who habitually sat at the back
in that way complain to me that she didn't get asked to dance much.
If there's a lesson before the dance (even if it's a beginners lesson) I
find it often pays to go to it as an ice-breaker - I know others do the
same. Some lining up of partners often goes on then too, it being fairly
easy to say to someone you have rotated to dance with in the lesson "keep
me a dance for later" or some such.
I'd just guess that you are finding the same sex dance nights easier
because there isn't the same kind of thought about possible agenda's other
than dancing going through your mind as there may be at mixed nights, thus
leaving you more mentally relaxed and more receptive to other people and
I'd further guess that the only difference between what goes on at a mixed
night is that you are tensing yourself up mentally, unnecessarily.
>
> Ironically, other places that don't stir much body disgust in me are
> most salsa clubs, that is, the ones that aren't as diverse as the DC
> club I danced at where I was continually asked to dance.
<snip>
> So, bodywise, I don't
> feel bad, though I always bring a partner so as to have fun.
>
I think you might be going to the wrong Salsa clubs, unless things are
very different in the US to here in the UK. Certainly here people don't go
to Salsa in groups any more or less than they go to any other dance.
Going with a partner can be a mistake if you actually want to dance with a
variety of partners, you may be recognised as the person who normally only
dances with one person.
That would probably put guy's off asking you by itself.
Incidentally, I think you put too much credence in this "Guy's only dance
with attractive women" thing too.
OK, we are all slaves to sexual attraction but (like a lot of men) I don't
only want to dance with the most attractive woman in the room. OK, if a
woman shows interest in me beyond dancing, I may stick with her for that
reason (I am currently single, after all) but generally I'm more
interested in dancing than I am in just hanging on the coat tails of a
pretty girl who has no interest in me and ability to dance well is very
high in my criteria in choosing dance partners.
Hope some of these observations help a little.
Andy
Michelle Dick
>poster, the magazine writer, was asking. I understood her to be asking for
>testimonials of how gaining mastery over one's body in the form of dance,
>for example, has improved one's body image.
I've seen *lots* of such testimonials associated with middle eastern
dance (esp belly dance). There is a middle eastern dance mailing
list. I'd suggest hunting it out and posting the query there and also
looking up the plenty of web sites devoted to this type of dance. Not
many belly dancers post or read here.
George Deliz
Michelle Dick wrote:
> In article <37AE98DF...@JPS.net>, Icono Clast <ICl...@JPS.net> wrote:
> > [The following is not directed specifically
> > to you, Michelle, but to women in general.]
> >
> >Michelle Dick wrote:
> >> the average male preference for thinner women
> >
> >Whence comes this impression? Vogue? Ms.? Good Housekeeping? Bride?
>
> From being rejected by men at dances who later ask thin women
> to dance. From noticing that when I took my housemate to dance (she'd
> never been and she is young, thin, and very beautiful),
Really, how come I missed dancing with her? :-)
> men were
> falling all over themselves asking her to dance.
Disgusting, ain't it? Actually you should view it as a source of amusement as I
do.As a man I gotta admit we are a hoot. The young guys are like frisky puppies,
jumping up and down and wagging their, er, tails frantically. The older guys are
sneaky letches coming on as good dance citizens willing to help a newbie but
operating on the principal that 'well, you never know'. (Hey, come on guys I
didn't tell them anything they didn't already know.)
> From noticing that
> the women on the sidelines at dances tended to be of higher average
> weight than those dancing. From noticing that a big friendly smile
> appears on a man when a thin beautiful women approaches him to ask to
> dance, while when I do, he tries to avoid eye contact and move away.
> And from noticing this *doesn't* happen at gay and lesbian dances nor
> does it happen amoung dancers from cultures without this average
> western preference.
>
> Outside of dancing, when I am in settings with higher percentages of
> non-western men, I find myself having to fend off attentions from men.
> The average western preference for thin women is not universal. It
> also is not universal among individual western men. But, since outside
> of dancing, I care not about the average man, I am fine.
>
> Also please note that I said nothing of body image problems caused by
> the media -- some women do have body image problems caused by that --
> I did not. I never had body image problems until I noticed that my
> body shape affected my pleasure at dance by how often I am asked and
> rejected. And though the solution is not to let it affect me, I am
> finding this one and only reasonable solution hard to implement though
> I am committed to do so.
>
> --
The question as I see it, however, is how has learning to dance improved your
body image rather than how dealing with male dancers has diminished it.
George Deliz
Michelle Dick
Andy Broomsgove <abro...@cix.co.uk> wrote:
>Michelle, it's a bit difficult to know what to say - we've never met so I
>don't know what you really look like - but others say that you are not bad
>looking and I guess you might be being a little oversensitive about your
>looks.
I'm oversensitive about not getting to dance as much as I want. I
never have negative feelings about my looks unless (1) this is
happening at the time and (2) other women are getting to dance as much
as they want and they tend to be more attractive than me.
>I just wonder whether your body language is conveying the wrong message at
>the events you get turned down/not asked at?
A possibility. Not sure what I do differently at same-sex dances or
Stanford dances or at the DC dance place where I was asked nonstop (I
certainly wasn't expecting the latter since I find most salsa clubs
not to have much dancing among strangers). And even at the
less-friendly-to-me venues, there sometimes are nights where I seem to
get lucky and get to dance all I want. That's when I end up gushing
"WOW! I had a GREAT time tonight!"
>whether to ask a particular woman to dance (especially a stranger) is how
>easy it is to actually get to her. If you are stuck at a table somewhere
>at the back in deep conversation with a group of other women then I'm much
>less likely to ask you than if you are sat at the edge of (or very close
>to) the dance floor watching the dancing or, depending on the venue, even
>stood at the edge looking like you want to dance.
Agreed. This is how I pick men to ask as well. And if I want to
either sit out or only dance a little, I do go sit back out of the way.
>I mention that because I once had a woman who habitually sat at the back
>in that way complain to me that she didn't get asked to dance much.
Heh. Also not getting asked isn't a very big deal to me IF my
requests to dance are made easy to implement (i.e. folks don't avoid
eye contact) and are frequently accepted. I'm not one to complain
about not getting to dance if I haven't even tried to ask.
>If there's a lesson before the dance (even if it's a beginners lesson) I
>find it often pays to go to it as an ice-breaker - I know others do the
>same.
Yes indeed! This works for about a half hour after the lesson. Then
the lesson-goers leave. (at least at the places I dance).
>I'd just guess that you are finding the same sex dance nights easier
>because there isn't the same kind of thought about possible agenda's other
>than dancing going through your mind as there may be at mixed nights, thus
>leaving you more mentally relaxed and more receptive to other people and
>I'd further guess that the only difference between what goes on at a mixed
>night is that you are tensing yourself up mentally, unnecessarily.
Could be.
>Incidentally, I think you put too much credence in this "Guy's only dance
>with attractive women" thing too.
If there are enough extra men that I am dancing all night even at
venues that are generally less friendly, I don't even notice who's
dancing with whom or who is asking whom. It's only when I end up
sitting out dance after dance that my mind takes in the scene and I
start noticing whom the men who rejected me dance with and other things
like that.
>reason (I am currently single, after all) but generally I'm more
>interested in dancing than I am in just hanging on the coat tails of a
>pretty girl who has no interest in me and ability to dance well is very
>high in my criteria in choosing dance partners.
>
>Hope some of these observations help a little.
Actually, I do notice the men like you and you all are part of what
makes dancing so nice. We women introduce you and your kind to our
other women dancer friends. If there were none of you, I wouldn't
dance at all.
We can't change the collective actions of others, we can only try to
deal with the reality of it the best we can. What I hope some men get
from this is that there often is a very real impact on women according
to their body size, which can result in negative self image. Negative
self image isn't just created by reaction to visual media. One way
you can help women to deal with it and learn not to be affected by it
is by not pretending that this discrimination in general does not
exist, but rather accepting that it does, agreeing that the impact of
it sucks, and encouraging us not to evaluate ourselves on the basis of
this real discrimination. The discrimination itself is not in my
head, but my reaction to it is (the former I can't change, but the
latter I can though it maybe be hard). Rest assured that I do notice
and appreciate the individuals in addition to the mean -- men like you
and Bob and Icono make dancing a joy.
Michelle Dick
George Deliz <george...@lmco.com> wrote:
>
>
>Michelle Dick wrote:
>> From being rejected by men at dances who later ask thin women
>> to dance. From noticing that when I took my housemate to dance (she'd
>> never been and she is young, thin, and very beautiful),
>
>Really, how come I missed dancing with her? :-)
She only went once. Said she was too busy to go again. Volleyball
was her first love. She's on the east coast now.
>> men were
>> falling all over themselves asking her to dance.
>
>Disgusting, ain't it? Actually you should view it as a source of amusement as I
>do.
Actually, as long as I get to dance as much as I want, it IS a source
of amusement. When I'm sitting out after having been turned down a
few times and doing so again and again through the night, it loses its
amusement value and I start to feel bad and my body begins to feel
disgusting to me.
I also do recognize the grass isn't all green in beauty-land. With
that attention also comes much more groping and inappropriate
behavior. It's very nice that when I DO get to dance as much as I
want, it usually is without the bad parts. Then my grass is verdant
indeed.
Matyas Sustik
> but generally I'm more
> interested in dancing than I am in just hanging on the coat tails of a
> pretty girl who has no interest in me and ability to dance well is very
> high in my criteria in choosing dance partners.
I think that there might be some correlation between looks and dance ability.
But this might not be so strong as many dancer think, especially in social
dancing.
After all it is a physical activity which involves the body so it is feasible
for me that without other information dancers might base their judgement on
the appearence. Therefore a beautiful (proportionate/thin or whatever) woman
might get more chance to dance but if she is not a good dancer than she will
probably not get much repeated dances and especially not from the good
leaders.
In my experience: I danced swing with women who probably weighted as much as
I do but they moved their body very well some of them was much better to lead
(and dance with) than someone with half of my weight but having floppy arms
e.g.
And I admit size matters to me, I am not so comfortable dancing with a woman
who is more than a half head taller than I am. It is ok in say rumba or swing
but I find standard pretty difficult with a significantly taller partner.
Matyas
Andy Broomsgove
Dick) wrote:
> And even at the
> less-friendly-to-me venues, there sometimes are nights where I seem to
> get lucky and get to dance all I want. That's when I end up gushing
> "WOW! I had a GREAT time tonight!"
If it's any consolation, I suspect we all have good nights and bad to some
extent. I usually come away from dancing on some kind of high, but
sometimes it's higher than others, if you see what I mean.
>
> >I mention that because I once had a woman who habitually sat at the
> back >in that way complain to me that she didn't get asked to dance
> much.
>
> Heh. Also not getting asked isn't a very big deal to me IF my
> requests to dance are made easy to implement (i.e. folks don't avoid
> eye contact) and are frequently accepted. I'm not one to complain
> about not getting to dance if I haven't even tried to ask.
>
I don't think the woman concerned had been doing anything other than just
sitting there hoping somebody would realise she wanted to dance when she
was giving off exactly the opposite signals.
> >If there's a lesson before the dance (even if it's a beginners lesson)
> I >find it often pays to go to it as an ice-breaker - I know others do
> the >same.
>
> Yes indeed! This works for about a half hour after the lesson. Then
> the lesson-goers leave. (at least at the places I dance).
>
Yes, that sometimes happens. It just can be a help sometimes.
Andy
Andy Broomsgove
Sustik) wrote:
> Andy Broomsgove wrote:
>
> > but generally I'm more
> > interested in dancing than I am in just hanging on the coat tails of a
> > pretty girl who has no interest in me and ability to dance well is
> > very
> > high in my criteria in choosing dance partners.
>
> I think that there might be some correlation between looks and dance
> ability.
> But this might not be so strong as many dancer think, especially in
> social
> dancing.
>
No, I don't think that there's any real link between basic looks and
dancing ability.
>
> In my experience: I danced swing with women who probably weighted as
> much as
> I do but they moved their body very well some of them was much better
> to lead
> (and dance with) than someone with half of my weight but having floppy
> arms
> e.g.
Body weight doesn't make any difference at all to how well someone follows
(or dances) in my experience, at least.
>
> And I admit size matters to me, I am not so comfortable dancing with a
> woman
> who is more than a half head taller than I am. It is ok in say rumba or
> swing
> but I find standard pretty difficult with a significantly taller
> partner.
Height does make a difference in dancing standard, it's true. But I
somehow don't think Michelle was worried about her height.
Andy
swingm...@my-deja.com
woman, I have NEVER had any problems in getting
dance partners when I am out social dancing. It
could be the genre of dance in which I dance,
C&W and WCS. Yes I live in Canada, but when I
go to events in the States I have never had any
problems. In fact I generally have a full dance
card all night and have to beg off partners in
order to rest my feet for a song or two.
I do notice that people (both men and women) do
sit on the sidelines watching others, but I also
notice that they generally have the worst scowls
imaginable on their faces, I know I wouldn't
want to dance with someone like that. I'm not
saying that you do that.
Yes some people are extremely rude and will look
you up and down and then scowl and say no. Then
these people are not dancers. Dancers want to
dance with other people to express their love of
dance and pass it on. The best way to promote
dance is to say yes, no matter who that person is,
what they look like, what level they are and to
have fun and allow their partner for that song
to think it's the best dance they've had all
night/day/weekend, etc.
In article <7ond66$dcc$1...@samba.rahul.net>,
Michelle Dick <art...@rahul.net> wrote:
> In article <37AE98DF...@JPS.net>, Icono
Clast <ICl...@JPS.net> wrote:
> > [The following is not directed
specifically
> > to you, Michelle, but to women in
general.]
> >
> >Michelle Dick wrote:
> >> the average male preference for thinner women
> >
> >Whence comes this impression? Vogue? Ms.? Good
Housekeeping? Bride?
>
> From being rejected by men at dances who later
ask thin women
> to dance. From noticing that when I took my
housemate to dance (she'd
> never been and she is young, thin, and very
beautiful), men were
> falling all over themselves asking her to dance.
> --
> Michelle Dick art...@rahul.net
East Palo Alto, CA
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
swingm...@my-deja.com
Matyas Sustik
> I> I think that there might be some correlation between looks and dance
> > ability.
> > But this might not be so strong as many dancer think, especially in
> > social
> > dancing.
>
> No, I don't think that there's any real link between basic looks and
> dancing ability.
Let me tell one example. It may ring true to you or not. At least I did not
have the same experience in the US probably because the dancers at the social
dance place are older than they were in Hungary.
I noticed that some (young) popular, good looking girls at social dances are
worse dancers than average. My explanation to this is that they get partners
without learning to dance, because there is always a bunch of guys around
these places who are more interested in dating/flirting than in dancing. (I
think that this observation is kind of backed up by previous posts.) And so
they do not have to be even an average dancer to get more than average number
of dances and some of them really do not put much effort to learn dancing for
this reason. (Of course I talk about correlation only, which implies many
possible counterexamples.)
A kind of related experience is when I came accross a very sexy girl who had
a mini skirt on, the type which disables her dancewise not allowing her to
make a step larger than 12 inches. Very unfortunate for VW. What a waste!
Matyas
Matyas Sustik
George Deliz
George Deliz
George Deliz
> Andy Broomsgove wrote:
>
> > > I think that there might be some correlation between looks and dance
> > > ability.
> > > But this might not be so strong as many dancer think, especially in
> > > social
> > > dancing.
> > >
> >
> > No, I don't think that there's any real link between basic looks and
> > dancing ability.
>
About the only trend I see in a dance crowd is that there are significantly fewer
overweight people than one sees in the general population. Most of the better
dancers also look like dancers, trim and fit. There are exceptions however. One
of my all time favorite dance partners was a lady who was a bit on the short side
and had a body like the proverbial potato sack. Her face was round and plain with
a faintly amphibian look to it. She was(and perhaps still is) a beautiful dancer,
light as a feather with strong movement and her frumpy little body was
surprisingly supple. I could often monopolize her when she showed up as she did
not dance on my turf often enough to become well known and few men would have
given her a second glance. My only competition was a few other guys who knew her
and appreciated a terrific partner.
George Deliz
Michelle Dick
George Deliz <george...@lmco.com> wrote:
>
>About the only trend I see in a dance crowd is that there are
>significantly fewer overweight people than one sees in the general
>population.
Agreed. Part of this (only part) is that the poor reception drives
away larger women from the dance scene -- from the women I personally
knew in the beginning classes with me, none of the 3 larger women
dance anymore. Sucky for me, because they gladly let me lead them
(perhaps because the men were less likely to?). But, even though
there are more larger women in beginning classes, it still doesn't
approach the distribution in the general population (probably because
larger people tend to be more sendentary).
Even I cut way back on dancing because of the poor reception I often
get. So I contribute to this trend you see as well.
Interestingly, at gay and lesbian dances at Metronome, the women are
more representative and the men are more handsome and buff than at
primarily heterosexual dances.
Matyas Sustik
:)
The message that I sent twice did not appeared to be a reply to the
message that I replied to but rather to my previous old message. (In my
reader.) I was concerned that it did not get through correctly.
Matyas
Ian Finch
>
> I think you might be going to the wrong Salsa clubs, unless things are
> very different in the US to here in the UK. Certainly here people don't go
> to Salsa in groups any more or less than they go to any other dance.
>
anyway). There *are* clubs where people go in groups and then dance in
those groups. The clubs I've heard of like this are all in London and
have a mainly Latino clientele. Groups of people turn up and dance in
those groups, but rarely outside of them. It's difficult (as a man, at
least) to go by yourself and get dances.
I've noticed the same thing in the US (particularly with a West Coast
crowd), where the groups seemed to be really significant. When a couple
were dancing, the other people in their group who were standing around
would shout out comments or cheer. In fact, this went further and
involved joining in. If a man spun a girl so she ended up spinning by
herself on the spot, another man would sometimes jump in and grab her at
the end of the spin and leave the first man partnerless. You can see
why this could only happen between groups of friends (otherwise the
blood would really take some of the slickness out of the dance floor
:-).
Another time people dance in groups is in places where Rueda is popular
(like Miami). There, Salsa schools make up their own calls, so
(ignoring the basic calls which everyone knows), unless you dance with
people from your own school, you don't understand some of the calls.
Cheers,
Ian
Andy Broomsgove
i...@connect.org.uk (Ian Finch) wrote:
> Andy Broomsgove <abro...@cix.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > I think you might be going to the wrong Salsa clubs, unless things are
> > very different in the US to here in the UK. Certainly here people
> > don't go
> > to Salsa in groups any more or less than they go to any other dance.
> >
> That all depends on the Salsa clubs you go to (as far as the UK goes,
> anyway). There *are* clubs where people go in groups and then dance in
> those groups. The clubs I've heard of like this are all in London and
> have a mainly Latino clientele. Groups of people turn up and dance in
> those groups, but rarely outside of them. It's difficult (as a man, at
> least) to go by yourself and get dances.
>
OK, fair enough, I stand corrected and will revise my comment to "There
may be an odd club or two in London where people go in groups and only
dance in those groups ...."
Or to put it another way, that's a bit pedantic Ian, to say the least.
I've danced quite a lot of Salsa in the last couple of years or so in
quite a lot of places and I've never come across that.
You only say you've "heard" of clubs like this, so you presumably haven't
been to them either.
> I've noticed the same thing in the US (particularly with a West Coast
> crowd), where the groups seemed to be really significant. When a couple
> were dancing, the other people in their group who were standing around
> would shout out comments or cheer. In fact, this went further and
> involved joining in. If a man spun a girl so she ended up spinning by
> herself on the spot, another man would sometimes jump in and grab her at
> the end of the spin and leave the first man partnerless. You can see
> why this could only happen between groups of friends (otherwise the
> blood would really take some of the slickness out of the dance floor
> :-).
Sure, but that's what I was trying to say. It may be that US dancers
behave differently to us in the UK, I allowed for that in my comment. It's
unfortunate for our friends across that Atlantic if this is so, though,
because it must make it difficult for singles of either sex.
>
> Another time people dance in groups is in places where Rueda is popular
> (like Miami). There, Salsa schools make up their own calls, so
> (ignoring the basic calls which everyone knows), unless you dance with
> people from your own school, you don't understand some of the calls.
>
The major disadvantage of Rueda is exactly that. Whilst it's fun to do in
some respect's, it's applicability is limited and I'm not really very fond
of it myself.
Andy
Ian Finch
>
> OK, fair enough, I stand corrected and will revise my comment to "There
> may be an odd club or two in London where people go in groups and only
> dance in those groups ...."
>
> Or to put it another way, that's a bit pedantic Ian, to say the least.
> I've danced quite a lot of Salsa in the last couple of years or so in
> quite a lot of places and I've never come across that.
>
meant to behave here). All I was trying to get across, was that there
is more than one type of salsa club. Off the top of my head, I'd say
that there are the nightclub type of place (where I tend to dance ...
albeit not yet in London), then there are the places where ballroom
dancers go and a third type which is more like a Latino social club than
a pure dance venue.
> You only say you've "heard" of clubs like this, so you presumably haven't
> been to them either.
>
Indeed I haven't. However, by `heard of', I'm not talking about a
half-remembered story from some magazine somewhere. Such clubs were
described to me by someone who has been to them. So, I guess this is a
second hand `heard of'.
> Sure, but that's what I was trying to say. It may be that US dancers
> behave differently to us in the UK, I allowed for that in my comment. It's
> unfortunate for our friends across that Atlantic if this is so, though,
> because it must make it difficult for singles of either sex.
>
From my experience, it's not so difficult. I got to dance and the
people were friendly to me (I even got asked to dance). It's just a
different way of doing things, to which you have to adjust slightly.
> The major disadvantage of Rueda is exactly that. Whilst it's fun to do in
> some respect's, it's applicability is limited and I'm not really very fond
> of it myself.
>
I've hardly ever done rueda (only messed about with it with friends,
really). However, I've had fun with it (although I wouldn't want to do
it all night). It seems ideal when there are a like-minded group of you
somewhere. You end up dancing with a group of people, rather than just
one. Sometimes, that's the mood I'm in (and sometimes I want to dance
with just one person).
Cheers,
Ian
Andy Broomsgove
i...@connect.org.uk (Ian Finch) wrote:
> Okay, maybe I am being pedantic (but I thought that was how you were
> meant to behave here).
Maybe :-)
> All I was trying to get across, was that there
> is more than one type of salsa club. Off the top of my head, I'd say
> that there are the nightclub type of place (where I tend to dance ...
> albeit not yet in London), then there are the places where ballroom
> dancers go and a third type which is more like a Latino social club than
> a pure dance venue.
>
I've never come across either of the latter two examples. The "place where
ballroom dancers go" is, I think, an American phenomena. I dance ballroom
and Salsa (as do quite a number of people I know) but all the Salsa clubs
I've ever been to are just that, there may be some ballroom dancers
present but none of them are wholly ballroom or are influenced by the
presence of the ballroom dancers particularly.
Equally I don't know any ballroom teachers who teach Salsa.
That's not to say there isn't an odd example or two somewhere in the
country of course :-)
As for the Latino social club, well that's possibly slightly more likely
to exist, I grant you, but there can't be that many of them. The UK
doesn't have that many people of South American origin living here, let
alone what proportion of them dance Salsa.
> > You only say you've "heard" of clubs like this, so you presumably
> > haven't
> > been to them either.
> >
> Indeed I haven't. However, by `heard of', I'm not talking about a
> half-remembered story from some magazine somewhere. Such clubs were
> described to me by someone who has been to them. So, I guess this is a
> second hand `heard of'.
>
Sure, but the problem about stories like that is that they tend to get
exaggerated every time they are told. I'm not blaming you for that, we all
do it (self included), largely unconsciously.
I think that there might be one, possibly two, clubs to which this
applies. In fact I seem to recall seeing or hearing something about such a
club somewhere in London too.
You certainly won't find many like that, though. And, unless you're very
unlucky, you aren't likely to stumble on one by accident.
Andy
dan edwards
Michelle Dick wrote in message <7okmgk$q0i$1...@samba.rahul.net>...
>You guys are sweet, but you need to realize that the mirror I am using
>is the reaction of men in general to me (not specific individual men,
>not you or Icono). I dearly wish to throw away this horrid mirror,
>but everytime I think I've broken it and flung the pieces away, I find
>another mirror just like it in its place.
Your posting touched me by the honesty you have presented. Yes, I as a male
do judge women by their looks. Initially. I don't think there is anything
immoral about that. (Though it is a very shallow place to stay in any
relationship.) But looks can't keep me! Funny thing is, the more I get to
know any woman and spend time with her the better looking that woman gets!
For all of it's beauty, ballroom dancing can be shallow. I know great
dancers who are extremely caught up in the 'looks' thing, as it is expected
of them by the establishment. I know other great (non professional) dancers
who have danced a lifetime, and stay with it for the beauty of *dancing*.
>I'm ordinarily no social butterfly and don't go for popularity per se,
>and with romantic liasons, one only needs one (or just a few :-)), so
>until I took up dancing, my size was not an issue to me. But with
>social dancing, my success in finding partners depends not on the one
>or few, but on the reactions of men in general [snip...]
>Other alternatives are to give up dancing or to move to an area with men
>who, on average, appreciate larger women.
Have you tried 'modern' theatrical dance? It is much more open to various
body types than the ballet inspired sylphs of 'dancesport' ( I don't like
that term.) As someone who also struggles with their weight I found modern
dance to be much more open to those who don't have 'dancer' bodies.
Breakontwo
the middle of it. But if I could add my two cents...
I completely and absolutely agree that competitive dance, specifically in the
areas of WCSwing and country, are very exclusive when it comes to body size.
You will find very few people, at any level of competition, who are even
slightly overweight (and many who need to put on a few pounds!)
In a way, this is understandable, if not excusable (especially among judges who
are supposed to be as objective and fair as possible). Humans are, deep down,
animals, who have evolved into visual creatures (from whatever they were in the
primordial goop ;)
This does not make it any easier for those who don't fit the "conventional"
standard of attractiveness. I have to admit, I have found myself thanking my
lucky stars when certain judges were judging my division, because I knew that
the fact that I fell within their standards of attractiveness would help my
scores. I'm not proud of it, but it's a fact of life that I culdn't control.
I have found that in general, the swing world tends to be a bit less focused on
physical looks and more on actual ability, but again I did say "less"...there
are still those who will not recognize that there are those who are
fuller-figured but dance much better than their stick-figured counterparts :)
Heck, if I could spin like some of the above-mentioned swing women I know, I'd
be in heaven :)
So good luck....I guess all I can say is keep working on your dancing, keep
defying their primordial ideas of beauty, and you'll be a truly beautiful
person and the kind of dancer that those of us with a brain in our heads would
kill to dance with <even those of us who can't lead :)
Trish Smith
Swin...@webtv.net
They are quiet a few ladies that are not that slim in WCS competitions
that are excellent, excellent dancers from the west coast to the east
coast. Several are champion dancers. I would list them but that would
not be nice to point out their body image. I'm sure that they are
typical women concerning their weight (ie, even the thinnest think
they're fat), but that doesn't stop their self esteem and love of
dancing.
Their weight has about as much significance as the shape of their legs,
their height, their age, their nationality, the size of their bust or
whatever. Dancers appreciate good dancers...period!
Heck, why don't we talk about the pros and cons of bust size in WCS in
relation to height, body weight, age and length of stride and uh one
and....
Mike Corbett
The ladies have no corner on competitive success while carrying some
significant excess pounds. Just in the Advanced division of WCS Jack
and Jill competition, half of the top six point getters in 1999 are
clearly overweight men. I'm the slimmest of those three. Who cares?
None of the top WCS dancers of either gender got where they are by
worrying about what people thought about the shape of their bodies.
They danced their way there. :-)
In can think of a couple up and comers that are Queen size too so it's
not just the cream at the top.
Mike Corbett - Sunnyvale, CA
Facts are cheap...knowing how to use them is precious...
Understanding the big picture is priceless. Anonymous
swin...@uniserve.com
average in the swing world. Heck, most people are. It's only the few
people who have an incredible metabolism, or are able to exercise
(cardio-wise, and yes I'm talking dancing or something else physically
active) about 4-5 nights a weeks for 3-5 hours who are really really
tiny. Yes it's possible for everyone to be really tiny, (I've done
it) but from personal experience if I get below 140 lbs because of my
bone structure I look anorexic. Now who would want to do that? I know
I don't.
One thing I've noticed as I've got a dear friend who is now competing in
the advanced WCS, is that as he gets higher and higher in competition
level, and does more events he's decreasing in size a great deal. Now
mostly this is because he's changed his eating habits because he's
always been incredibly active and has been able to outdance, run, cycle,
you name it - anyone who was 1/3 his size. But one thing though, most
of the top dancers in the swing world aren't hefty, large, or whatever
else you want to call it because they practise so much to stay on top.
Dancing did benefit the image I have in my mind of my body, but at times
I still feel uncomfortably/unfashionably large.
Thanks for letting me ramble with my piece.
Kirsty Wilson
Breakontwo
>
>They are quiet a few ladies that are not that slim in WCS competitions
>that are excellent, excellent dancers from the west coast to the east
>coast. Several are champion dancers. I would list them but that would
>not be nice to point out their body image. I'm sure that they are
>typical women concerning their weight (ie, even the thinnest think
>they're fat), but that doesn't stop their self esteem and love of
>dancing.
>
>Their weight has about as much significance as the shape of their legs,
>their height, their age, their nationality, the size of their bust or
>whatever. Dancers appreciate good dancers...period!
>
>Heck, why don't we talk about the pros and cons of bust size in WCS in
>relation to height, body weight, age and length of stride and uh one
>and....
I stand corrected....I guess what I should have said was, the competitive swing
world is far less concerned with the weight of its respective competitors than
the UCWDC (I only have direct experience in UCWDC, my observations of Swing are
strictly that, and not based on actual competition experience in the Swing
world, so my deepest apologies. I made that one fatal blunder.....opening my
trap when I didn't know what the hell I was talking about <g> Forgiven?)
Trish S <--who is sure that Trish C is now gladder than ever that she is using
her last name on posts lol
Breakontwo
>of the top dancers in the swing world aren't hefty, large, or whatever
>else you want to call it because they practise so much to stay on top.
>
<g> Kirsty, I have a feeling there may be two necks in the pillory tonight lol
Don't worry hon, we'll keep each other company <g>
Trish S
Breakontwo
>significant excess pounds. Just in the Advanced division of WCS Jack
>and Jill competition, half of the top six point getters in 1999 are
>clearly overweight men. I'm the slimmest of those three. Who cares?
>
>
>None of the top WCS dancers of either gender got where they are by
>worrying about what people thought about the shape of their bodies.
>They danced their way there. :-)
>
>In can think of a couple up and comers that are Queen size too so it's
>not just the cream at the top.
>
>
>Mike Corbett - Sunnyvale, CA
>
>Facts are cheap...knowing how to use them is precious...
>Understanding the big picture is priceless. Anonymous
>
Ok, ok, I can see I'm in for some (well-deserved) flogging here.....Just make
it quick <closing eyes>...
Trish S
Mike Corbett
>But one thing though, most
>of the top dancers in the swing world aren't hefty, large, or whatever
>else you want to call it because they practise so much to stay on top.
I think "most of the top dancers in the swing world aren't hefty,
large or whatever" for various reasons. How much they practice may or
may not have any large influence on their size and shape.
Did you ever check out the body fat ratio of any NFL interior lineman
or do you think they get too little exercise? :-)
On a related subject... Not only does "practice" not make slim but
practice does not make "perfect" or even better. Practice makes
permanent. Practicing the wrong things may provide plenty of exercise
while making permanent bad dancing. Much less practice of the right
kind may improve the dancing with much less exercise value.
The best dancers have plenty of talent and practice the right things
in varied quantity. No amount of the wrong kind of practice will help
even the talented dancer to any great extent. The right kind of
practice will serve at a benefit level that varies with the talent of
the individual.
In my experience, those who show that they are gifted with exceptional
talent usually know it and know better than to lead others to believe
lot's of practice will make up for the lack of talent. However, those
not fortunate enough to have such gifts in a particular area tend to
believe they can overcome the lack of talent with practice. The truth
is, that they can but to a limited extent.
Yeah. I know. Even the above is an over simplification. :-)
Breakontwo
>talent usually know it and know better than to lead others to believe
>lot's of practice will make up for the lack of talent. However, those
>not fortunate enough to have such gifts in a particular area tend to
>believe they can overcome the lack of talent with practice. The truth
>is, that they can but to a limited extent.
>
This is what I've been trying to tell a certain instructor friend of mne who
believes everyone can progress to great levels, regardless of innate talent.
Thanks for putting it so succinctly
Trish S (who is trying to figure out which category of those mentioned by Mike
*she's* in ;)
rand...@my-deja.com
mi...@corbettweb.com (Mike Corbett) wrote:
>
> In my experience, those who show that they are gifted with exceptional
> talent usually know it and know better than to lead others to believe
> lot's of practice will make up for the lack of talent. However, those
> not fortunate enough to have such gifts in a particular area tend to
> believe they can overcome the lack of talent with practice. The truth
> is, that they can but to a limited extent.
Geez, Mike!!! That is so depressing!!!!! All I know is that when I
started I was walking into parked cars and other stationary objects,
tripping over my own feet, had no confidence in my physical
attractiveness, and had to be taught the basic step three times
before I could remember it.
And now, well, I'm still walking into parked cars, but *on* the dance
floor I'm plenty graceful. :) Not winning any national titles or
anything, but most of the advanced dancers who didn't have time for
me at first will dance with me now, and end up with smiles on their
faces. And more and more I catch folks watching while I dance,
and smiling. I think that is really what it's all about. :)
So, all you beginner dancer lurkers out there, don't give up! IMHO,
all most people really need is the constant desire to learn, and a
regular opportunity to watch/dance with good dancers.
cheers,
RC
Greg Skinner
Michelle Dick <art...@rahul.net> wrote:
>Please, it is not so easy to "just not let it affect me" (which is
>what "get another mirror" amounts to). I am trying. It is a
>struggle. And I do now cut back on dance (with its evil mirror) in
>favor of other activities which have much more compassionate mirrors.
>Experiences with other mirrors does help me to resist looking in the
>dance mirror.
Some of what you have written reminds me of something an
African-American woman once told me. She said she was reluctant to go
ballroom dancing because she didn't think a lot of other
African-Americans would be there, and thus she would not be asked to
dance. (FYI, she isn't large.)
--gregbo
gds at best.com
Breakontwo
>African-American woman once told me. She said she was reluctant to go
>ballroom dancing because she didn't think a lot of other
>African-Americans would be there, and thus she would not be asked to
>dance. (FYI, she isn't large.)
>
>--gregbo
>gds at best.com
<sigh> I think everyone can probably relate to that feeling at some point in
their lives...We've all worried that we would not fit in, would be judged, etc
etc.
Not being a larger woman, I cannot say that I have ever been in that situation
specifically...I guess the only advice I can give is (and I give this advice
because I'm one of many addicts who would put up with several tons of abuse, if
we could just dance....not everyone is as willing to be abused ;) to work on
your technique, work on your style, and become one of those dancers about whom
people say
"Have you danced with ______ yet? She moves like you wouldn't believe!!!"
"Oh, the heavy-set woman in the black pants?"
"Oh...is she heavy-set? I hadn't noticed..."
Wishing us all peace, happiness, and the ability to spin like Debbie Bernard ;)
(yeh, even the guys!)
Trish Smith
Mike Corbett
Of course. They can pursue being the best dancer they can be. Each
individual's best is their own. Parity, where talent is involved, is
less than a myth. Learning curves and learning peaks will vary with
the individual.
By the way, "limited" is one of those imprecise "relative" terms. I
have limited talent and aptitude for math. I wouldn't progress very
far in the astrophysics field. Don't bump into any planets on your
way to a Doctorate in astrophysics. Ok?
Breakontwo
>From: break...@aol.com (Breakontwo)
>Date: Thu, 19 August 1999 04:30 PM EDT
>Message-id: <19990819163022...@ng-bh1.aol.com>
I just realized how that might come off, so let me clarify something for those
of you who might find themselves becoming offfended at the thought that I am
suggesting that they "find another mirror" as one person put it.
There is one thing that must be recognized by all of us if we are to remain
sane on this planet :) and that is that no one can change anyone else's
attitudes or opinions. Opinions can only change if the person holding them
changes them...all the shouting, begging, and arguing in the world won't do it
if the person does not want to change. That doesn't mean you can't have open,
honest debates, in the attempt to do so...but to live one's life trying to
change others, is an exercise in futility (and in getting an ulcer). No matter
how hard you try, you will not be able to change some peoples' minds. I am of
the opinion that rather than try to do so, I will merely spend my (valuable and
in-short-supply) time with people who don't have such negative opinions and
attitudes.
Heck, life is too short :)
Trish S
Trish Connery
> Mike, true it's not just the "cream of the crop" who are larger than the
> average in the swing world. Heck, most people are.
Then aren't *they* the average? Just thinking out loud...
<snip>
Here's my feeling on this thread. I think body image relates to WCS,
Hustle, etc., only in how we ourselves perceive and present it.
There are many people who are on what is normally considered the "large"
side (although IMO "large" is a relative term), and some of them are top
dancers. But they are comfortable with who they are, how they are, they
dress tastefully to suit their particular style/body frame, and present
themselves well on the dance floor. Who could ask for more? Besides,
dressing to compliment our personal style, coloring, preferences *and* body
size/frame is something dancers of all sizes should be aware of.
I, for one, find it comforting and reassuring to see by example that I
don't have to be a "skinny ninny" (no offense to all you Callista-ites out
there <g>) in order to do well on the comp dance floor. As far as I'm
concerned, it is my dancing that counts, not my weight. I've never felt my
ability to make finals (or not make finals) was based on my dress size.
JMO, YDSMV (that's 'Your Dress Size May Vary' <g>)
:^)
--
Trish Connery
Los Angeles, CA
Psychohist
No amount of the wrong kind of practice will help
even the talented dancer to any great extent.
Well, it can help their stamina. And it may get them to do the wrong things
smoothly enough to fool many, including judges.
It will not help the quality of their dancing. But quality is not the only
aspect of dance. Only the most important.
Warren Dew
Ian Finch
>
> I've never come across either of the latter two examples. The "place where
> ballroom dancers go" is, I think, an American phenomena. I dance ballroom
> and Salsa (as do quite a number of people I know) but all the Salsa clubs
> I've ever been to are just that, there may be some ballroom dancers
> present but none of them are wholly ballroom or are influenced by the
> presence of the ballroom dancers particularly.
>
The situation is that there are ballroom dances which are now putting
salsa into the rotation of tunes they play.
> Equally I don't know any ballroom teachers who teach Salsa.
>
Well, a ballroom teacher local to my parents has started giving salsa
lessons, as one example. I've also seen adverts for salsa lessons at
most of the ballroom studios which advertise in the local press here
(Liverpool). I don't know much about ballroom studios, but I understand
that there is now a syllabus called `alternative rhythms' as part of the
International Standard. This includes mambo and, without wishing to get
into a mambo vs. salsa debate, the stuff I've seen which they call mambo
looks pretty much like salsa (albeit with a very pronounced ballroom
styling).
> That's not to say there isn't an odd example or two somewhere in the
> country of course :-)
>
Ah, you're too late ... my pedantry has already taken hold!
> As for the Latino social club, well that's possibly slightly more likely
> to exist, I grant you, but there can't be that many of them. The UK
> doesn't have that many people of South American origin living here, let
> alone what proportion of them dance Salsa.
>
The clubs I've been told about are all connected with the Colombian
community in London.
Cheers,
Ian
Andy Broomsgove
i...@connect.org.uk (Ian Finch) wrote:
> Okay, I've checked my facts and I was slightly wrong about the above.
> The situation is that there are ballroom dances which are now putting
> salsa into the rotation of tunes they play.
>
That i might believe. In fact you can dance Salsa to most Samba music as
well.
> > Equally I don't know any ballroom teachers who teach Salsa.
> >
> Well, a ballroom teacher local to my parents has started giving salsa
> lessons, as one example. I've also seen adverts for salsa lessons at
> most of the ballroom studios which advertise in the local press here
> (Liverpool). I don't know much about ballroom studios, but I understand
> that there is now a syllabus called `alternative rhythms' as part of the
> International Standard. This includes mambo and, without wishing to get
> into a mambo vs. salsa debate, the stuff I've seen which they call mambo
> looks pretty much like salsa (albeit with a very pronounced ballroom
> styling).
>
To be honest, I didn't think many ballroom studios taught mambo in the UK.
You are correct is saying they are very very similar, and I don't think
there's much doubt that Salsa arose from a re-packaging of mambo some
years ago. However Salsa has developed a little since then. Specifically,
it has become much more improvisational than any ballroom studio would
usually be comfortable with and has looked back to the genuine latin roots
of "latin" dances and re-adopted some of them.
> > That's not to say there isn't an odd example or two somewhere in the
> > country of course :-)
> >
> Ah, you're too late ... my pedantry has already taken hold!
Damn, you've got me! :-)
>
> > As for the Latino social club, well that's possibly slightly more
> > likely
> > to exist, I grant you, but there can't be that many of them. The UK
> > doesn't have that many people of South American origin living here,
> > let
> > alone what proportion of them dance Salsa.
> >
> The clubs I've been told about are all connected with the Colombian
> community in London.
Yes, I can believe that.
Andy
Breakontwo
>community in London.
>
> Ian
>
Hey Ian...
Maybe I should move out to England.... do you know how hard it is to find good
South American food in Denver? <g>
(and for those of you who are avid Mexican food-ites, Mexican and S.A. are not
the same thing :)
Trish (a frustrated Colombian who has taken to making her own Arroz Con Pollo)
Ian Finch
>
> That i might believe. In fact you can dance Salsa to most Samba music as
> well.
>
about ballroom music. But my curiosity got the better of me. For
starters, I'm assuming you mean ballroom-type Samba music here, rather
than your actual Brasilian Samba (I know what a Samba band sounds like
and I know I couldn't Salsa to that). So, I've got no idea what
ballroom Samba sounds like (I'll listen to some when I visit my parents
next week), but I know that the important thing for me in Salsa is the
clave (and other associated percussion parts). Does Samba have that?
If it does, what makes it different from Salsa? If it doesn't, how can
you dance Salsa to it? I'm not trying to be a pain here, I'm genuinely
curious.
> To be honest, I didn't think many ballroom studios taught mambo in the UK.
> You are correct is saying they are very very similar, and I don't think
> there's much doubt that Salsa arose from a re-packaging of mambo some
> years ago. However Salsa has developed a little since then. Specifically,
> it has become much more improvisational than any ballroom studio would
> usually be comfortable with and has looked back to the genuine latin roots
> of "latin" dances and re-adopted some of them.
>
Okay, I specifically said that I didn't want to get into a mambo vs.
salsa discussion, but let's parade my ignorance anyway! To my mind,
salsa encompasses a variety of ways of dancing to music based around the
clave. To take two examples, think of Cuban salsa and New York salsa.
Pretty clearly, NY salsa comes from mambo. When you see Cuban salsa,
however, it's pretty clearly not from mambo. Looking at other places,
you can see that Colombian salsa is different again; you can see the
influences of Cuba on Miami style; and you can make a pretty strong
claim that in LA, hustle played a big part in the way salsa is danced
there.
I can't really see any justification to the claim that salsa is a
re-packaging of mambo. Perhaps some `dialects' of salsa are, but there
are plenty which aren't.
I'd also say that it hasn't *become* more improvisational, but that it
always was improvised. That was even true back in the mambo days in New
York, with people trying to come up with flashier shines, all the time.
Whew, how's that ... a whole post about stuff I said I didn't want to
talk about :-) I'm sure my ignorance about ballroom-style latin comes
through here, but how else am I going to learn?
Cheers,
Ian
henry joel neeman
>... [Q]uality is not the only aspect of dance. Only the most
>important.
I gotta disagree with you there, Warren. I've danced with some very
good dancers who obviously couldn't wait for the song to end, and with
some awful dancers who were fantastic company. I'll take the latter
every time.
---
Henry Neeman (hne...@ou.edu)
Disclaimer: I speak for myself and no one else. So there.
Andy Broomsgove
i...@connect.org.uk (Ian Finch) wrote:
> I decided that I wasn't going to reply to this, 'cos I know nothing
> about ballroom music. But my curiosity got the better of me. For
> starters, I'm assuming you mean ballroom-type Samba music here, rather
> than your actual Brasilian Samba (I know what a Samba band sounds like
> and I know I couldn't Salsa to that). So, I've got no idea what
> ballroom Samba sounds like (I'll listen to some when I visit my parents
> next week), but I know that the important thing for me in Salsa is the
> clave (and other associated percussion parts). Does Samba have that?
> If it does, what makes it different from Salsa? If it doesn't, how can
> you dance Salsa to it? I'm not trying to be a pain here, I'm genuinely
> curious.
Yes, I did mean ballroom Samba. BTW, I should say that I'm not putting
that type of music forward as being something that's ideal to dance Salsa
to, just that it's possible and (given a choice) I'd rather Salsa than
ballroom Samba (although I can do the latter). Hence I'll do Salsa at a
ballroom dance when a Samba is played if I have a partner for it.
Incidentally some 100% genuine Salsa tracks are also in ballroom Samba
time. Somewhat against my will a female friend had me dancing ballroom
Samba at a Salsa club only last week (though that's something I only do on
extremely rare occasions).
I'm not a musician, so I wouldn't like to comment on why this works
musically.
I've also always wondered how what we hear "Brazilian" Samba bands play
related to Samba the ballroom dance (and/or anything the Brazilians dance
as Samba).
Whilst "jig around" type dancing is commonly seen to this type of band, I
haven't ever seen any kind of partner dance done to it in this country,
I've never been to Brazil, though.
> >
> Okay, I specifically said that I didn't want to get into a mambo vs.
> salsa discussion, but let's parade my ignorance anyway! To my mind,
> salsa encompasses a variety of ways of dancing to music based around the
> clave. To take two examples, think of Cuban salsa and New York salsa.
> Pretty clearly, NY salsa comes from mambo. When you see Cuban salsa,
> however, it's pretty clearly not from mambo. Looking at other places,
> you can see that Colombian salsa is different again; you can see the
> influences of Cuba on Miami style; and you can make a pretty strong
> claim that in LA, hustle played a big part in the way salsa is danced
> there.
>
> I can't really see any justification to the claim that salsa is a
> re-packaging of mambo. Perhaps some `dialects' of salsa are, but there
> are plenty which aren't.
Well I don't think there is very much doubt that the word "Salsa" to
describe music and dance was coined in the US in the 1970's and was
originally a re-packaging of Mambo.
Undeniably it has since filtered into various places that have changed it
somewhat, but I've seen people dancing most of the generally accepted
styles and had lessons in them myself (I should also say that I did
ballroom Mambo for several years before switching to Salsa) and I can
see/feel the Mambo influence in it all.
I accept that it's more obvious (maybe) in the the so-called "New York"
style and I also accept that there now a lot of "Salsa" moves which are,
in fact, imports from other dances of the jive/swing genre.
Mind you, Mambo itself was originally a result of adapting jive/swing
moves into latin music, at least in part, so maybe we've just turned the
wheel another circle.
>
> I'd also say that it hasn't *become* more improvisational, but that it
> always was improvised. That was even true back in the mambo days in New
> York, with people trying to come up with flashier shines, all the time.
>
Yes, originally that would have been true. However, like all the ballroom
dances, attempts at standardisation removed that kind of improvisation in
the post 2nd World War period.
Please don't get me wrong, standardisation has it's advantages,
particularly for beginners, and ballroom has had to create so-called
"open" dancing to allow more advanced dancers to dance what they will
rather than sticking to the "standard" (also called syllabus - especially
in the States) moves only.
But the problem that ballroom has (at least in my view) is that people see
the list of standard moves and many of them think that is the end of the
story. It isn't, but that's what they think.
It also means a significance number of people never really learn to lead
and follow properly.
Mind you, looking around the average Salsa floor, I'm not sure how many
dancers ever do any more than a handful of moves and certainly only a
very, very few ever attempt anything that could conceivably be called a
"shine". There you go, I suppose :-)
Andy
rand...@my-deja.com
break...@aol.com (Breakontwo) wrote:
> >In my experience, those who show that they are gifted with
exceptional
> >talent usually know it and know better than to lead others to believe
> >lot's of practice will make up for the lack of talent. However,
those
> >not fortunate enough to have such gifts in a particular area tend to
> >believe they can overcome the lack of talent with practice. The
truth
> >is, that they can but to a limited extent.
> >
>
mne who
> believes everyone can progress to great levels, regardless of innate
talent.
>
> Thanks for putting it so succinctly
>
> Trish S (who is trying to figure out which category of those mentioned
by Mike
> *she's* in ;)
>
Argh. Just like to register my disagreement. I think that, while
talent is one factor in a dancer's success, perseverance and dedication
can make up for an awful lot. And, esp in a dance like WCS where
most folks who are considered good have been doing it for years, there
is already enough intimidation factor without unduly emphasizing the
role of "natural talent". I remember quite vividly three years ago
watching my first WCS dance and vowing someday to be just like those
folks on the floor. At that point I was a total klutz (still am, off
the dance floor) and had not much natural rhythm or musicality. All
I had was desire and the confidence that with enough work I could
be good enough to dance with those amazing folks I saw on the floor,
and have them like it. And sure enough, now I can.
I really think that what holds most people back from getting
good at dancing is too much intimidation rather than a lack of talent.
People believe they're incapable of learning, so they don't push and
stretch and challenge themselves, and take their dancing to the next
level. (And same thing, by the way, goes for mathematics or any other
field where "natural talent" is supposed to be responsible for most
folk's success. Sure, ya gotta have talent to be Einstein, but
anyone save the mentally disabled can pass calculus if they have enough
confidence and can bear to put in the time/effort it takes - the
premise behind such stories as "Stand and Deliver". So sure, ya
gotta have talent to be Robert Royston, but I truly believe that
anyone willing to dance two or three evenings a week for many years,
take private lessons from good instructors, and truly work on breaking
bad habits and forming good ones can certainly dance in the
intermediate division eventually - quite possibly more, but I don't
feel comfortable claiming what I haven't achieved - yet.;) ).
Victor Eijkhout
> Andy Broomsgove <abro...@cix.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > That i might believe. In fact you can dance Salsa to most Samba music as
> > well.
Strong statement.
> next week), but I know that the important thing for me in Salsa is the
> clave (and other associated percussion parts). Does Samba have that?
Afaik not. However, I have a hard time hearing the clave even in music
that has it. Exception of course being when actual claves play the
clave. In general, however, I don't hear the actual clave being played.
Main thing I latch on to is the bass, which repeats the 3-side,
no matter whether the song is 2-3 or 3-2.
And the bass is definitely doing something else entirely in samba.
So why is samba like salsa? Well, samba is around 100bpm, salsa around 200bpm,
and there is a lot of percussions going on, so in certain cases one could
be forgiven for thinking "this song could either be a samba or a salsa".
Though I must say that in any song I heard in this category this confusion
lasted no longer than the intro.
--
Victor Eijkhout
Mike Corbett
You are confusing statements about "relative speed of learning" and
"maximum peak achievement levels" with can and can't.
Just because a Ford Escort doesn't go as fast as a Corvette or have
the ride quality of a Mercedes doesn't mean it's not a perfectly good
piece of transportation equipment.
You seem to be responding to some negative feeling of discouragement
you get from reading the truth. Nobody's context intended to
discourage you or anybody else. On the contrary. Instructors who
recognize that to teach students according to their natural talent or
learning style will maximize the results.
>
>I really think that what holds most people back from getting
>good at dancing is too much intimidation rather than a lack of talent.
How about lack of confidence instead of lack of talent? Too much
intimidation puts the responsibility outside the individual. :-)
Otherwise, your statements below reinforce the validity of the
principles Trish and I mentioned.
By the way, the key statement above, was "they can but to a limited
extent." Notice both the words "can" and "limited".
>People believe they're incapable of learning, so they don't push and
>stretch and challenge themselves, and take their dancing to the next
>level. (And same thing, by the way, goes for mathematics or any other
>field where "natural talent" is supposed to be responsible for most
>folk's success. Sure, ya gotta have talent to be Einstein, but
>anyone save the mentally disabled can pass calculus if they have enough
>confidence and can bear to put in the time/effort it takes - the
>premise behind such stories as "Stand and Deliver". So sure, ya
>gotta have talent to be Robert Royston, but I truly believe that
>anyone willing to dance two or three evenings a week for many years,
>take private lessons from good instructors, and truly work on breaking
>bad habits and forming good ones can certainly dance in the
>intermediate division eventually - quite possibly more, but I don't
>feel comfortable claiming what I haven't achieved - yet.;) ).
Sounds like you are recognizing both the "limitations" and the "cans".
See? You understand. :-)
Mike Corbett - Sunnyvale
ProDnzr
which are more Salsas. A good example are the World music cds which are being
sold in the sharper image stores such as the Latino/Latino CD Which has Son
Flamenco and Arranca. I'd be interested to hear your take on these rhythms
Victor
Regards
Enio
ProDnzr
Enio Cordoba
Let's Dance L.A.
Alhambra, California
Andy Broomsgove
eijk...@prancer.cs.utk.edu (Victor Eijkhout) wrote:
> So why is samba like salsa? Well, samba is around 100bpm, salsa around
> 200bpm,
> and there is a lot of percussions going on, so in certain cases one
> could
> be forgiven for thinking "this song could either be a samba or a salsa".
> Though I must say that in any song I heard in this category this
> confusion
> lasted no longer than the intro.
>
Um, I never said I mistook Samba for Salsa (or vice versa), nor that I
considered Samba music a particularly good choice for Salsa.
What I did say is that you can, if you wish, dance Salsa to Samba.
And since I don't like ballroom Samba particularly, I sometimes do so.
But it's from choice, not confusion.
Andy
Ian Finch
>
> It also means a significance number of people [dancing ballroom] never
> really learn to lead and follow properly.
>
in clubs, too!
Okay, I've got a number of things I don't like about ballroom schools,
but I'm not going to get into that here. On the positive side, what I
think they offer, is a clearly defined way of dancing. On the other
hand, most club salsa lessons I've seen are slightly more vague, but
this allows people to add their own style to what they do (for example,
I know people from a jazz dance background, a hip-hop background or
whatever else and they each dance salsa in a way which reflects that
background). Some people prefer (need?) to be taught one way, whilst
others prefer the other way.
Personally, I prefer the club way of doing things. It suited me. I can
never get my head around counting, learning loads of names for moves or
whatever. On the other hand, the ballroom way is ideal for many people.
I guess there's plenty of room for everyone.
> Mind you, looking around the average Salsa floor, I'm not sure how many
> dancers ever do any more than a handful of moves and certainly only a
> very, very few ever attempt anything that could conceivably be called a
> "shine". There you go, I suppose :-)
>
I think that's changing (definitely in the clubs I go to). In the last
six months or so, more and more people seem to be getting into shines.
Cheers,
Ian
Psychohist
Instructors who recognize that to teach students according to their
natural talent or learning style will maximize the results.
I've gotten the best results by making my students improve their level of
'natural' talent.
Talent is important. But it isn't magic. It can be learned, just like
everything else.
Warren
Warren J. Dew
Powderhouse Software
Byeskolski
When he started he literally could not tap his feet to music and stay on the
beat. After two years of lessons he is a very good swing dancer and is
starting to learn the ballroom dances. In fact, he already waltzes better than
most men I dance with.
What he lacked in natural ability he made up in hard work and perseverance.
I've told him often that I think it's amazing that he is willing to work so
hard at something that is so difficult for him. I don't have that kind of
discipline.
Natural ability affects the speed at which a person can learn, and their
eventual level of achievement, but lack of talent can be overcome to a great
extent.
beverly
Mike Corbett
"Talent" is one of those words with many meanings. The context in
which I used "talent" is in reference to a natural gift, one which an
individual may choose whether to develop but cannot manufacture.
Dance ability may be acquired and skills learned so that an individual
with minimal gifts, who applies himself may progress beyond the level
of one with more natural talent who "hides it under a bushel".
Another term commonly used to describe many natural dancers is
"kinesthetically gifted". That's not the only kind of "talent" or
gift that helps make top dancers but it's a major one.
Regardless of the nature of one's gifts, learning is achieved more
efficiently when the teacher understands the degree of natural
ability, "talent" or "gift" the student has for the subject matter and
adjusts the teaching method to maximize it's effect.
Certainly bodies and minds can be trained and skill learned by those
with at least minimal physical and mental ability. The degree of
ultimate success given equal "effort" in dance or whatever will be
greatly influenced by the degree of natural "talent" or "gift" within
the individual.
Genius is rare and natural occurance but the genius must still be
taught and appy himself to the learning.
A Persian friend of mine who's no genius could pass for a native born
US citizen when I met him only 4 years ofter speaking his first word
of English. What kinesthetically gifted individuals could do with
their eyes and body, he could do with his ears and voice.
No. Talent isn't magic but in my context it isn't learned either. :-)
Mike Corbett - Sunnyvale, CA
Facts are cheap...knowing how to use them is precious...
Breakontwo
Mike....How terribly politically incorrect...;)
Do you mean to imply that not everyone will become a Debbie Austin, Rob
Royston, or (insert your top dog dancer of choice here)?
My God....I'm stunned <heh heh heh>
Anyway, I completely agree with your summation...after all, Webster's defines
talent as "Superior natural ability". I think most of us can agree that while
we can improve our skills, we cannot change (for better or worse) the amount of
God-given natural ability we are born with. I have seen people with not much
natural ability become amazing dancers (no names mentioned), while those with
tons of it do, indeed, "hide it under a bushel" :)
The question: What, exactly, is "kinesthetically gifted"...I can get the
general gist, knowing the definition of kinesthetics as I do, but could you
perhaps discuss a little of how it applies to dance?
Many thanks
Trish
Mike Corbett
Sorry. This post separates the web page quote from my added opinion.
>On 25 Aug 1999 22:54:00 GMT, break...@aol.com (Breakontwo) wrote:
>
>
>>At the end of this post is a question for you Mike, so read on :).....
>>Mike....How terribly politically incorrect...;)
>>Do you mean to imply that not everyone will become a Debbie Austin, Rob
>>Royston, or (insert your top dog dancer of choice here)?
>>
>>My God....I'm stunned <heh heh heh>
>>
>>Anyway, I completely agree with your summation...after all, Webster's defines
>>talent as "Superior natural ability". I think most of us can agree that while
>>we can improve our skills, we cannot change (for better or worse) the amount of
>>God-given natural ability we are born with. I have seen people with not much
>>natural ability become amazing dancers (no names mentioned), while those with
>>tons of it do, indeed, "hide it under a bushel" :)
>>
>>The question: What, exactly, is "kinesthetically gifted"...I can get the
>>general gist, knowing the definition of kinesthetics as I do, but could you
>>perhaps discuss a little of how it applies to dance?
>>
>>Many thanks
>>Trish
>
>I'm not an expert so I used the net. You may want to check out
>
>>http://www.aenc.org/ABOUT/7Int-BodKin.html
>>
>>Stolen from that reference is the following.
>>
>>Bodily-Kinesthetic Intelligence is the capacity to use your complete
>>body in expressing ideas and feelings (e.g., actor, athlete, dancer,
>>mime), including the facility to use your hand's to create or
>>transform things (e.g., artistic painter, mechanic, sculptor,
>>surgeon).
>>
>>Students with bodily-kinesthetic intelligence have these
>>physical-based skills:
>>
>>coordination - harmonious functioning of muscles;
>>balance;
>>dexterity - grace in physical movement;
>>muscle strength;
>>flexibility;
>>speed; and
>>sensitive touching.
End quote.
>
>IMO, a Kinesthetically "gifted" person comes pre-wired with these
>natural skills. All can be developed by healthy motivated individuals
>but those who come pre-wired tend to excell in a superior way, given
>similar motivation and effort.
>
>In my observation, kinesthetically gifted individuals tend to be able
>to "mimick" body movements they see others do and/or naturally find an
>efficient way to accomplish a task never before seen.
>
>An example would be the actions of a wide receiver leaping to catch a
>football with body outstretched. Some can imitate by seeing once.
>Others can naturally make their bodies do the right thing without an
>example. Just throw the ball just out of their running reach and their
>"gifts" will kick in and get the job done.
>
>A dancer like Robert Royston needs more than just kinesthetic gifts.
>Robert also has a similar set of gifts related to music and rhythm and
>a very organized mind, to name but a few. Each is a "talent". :-)
>
>Each is an advantage.
>
>Mike Corbett - Sunnyvale
>
>Facts are cheap...knowing how to use them is precious...
>Understanding the big picture is priceless. Anonymous
Mike Corbett - Sunnyvale
Lusty Wench
Ed Jay <Xe...@aes-intl.com> wrote:
>Great reference, Mike. I came away from reading it with a greater sense of
>the bodily-kinesthetics and potential for artistry in dance, not only
>creative moves and interpreting the mood of the music, but spatial artistry
>as well.
>
>My mind can readily visualize ballet, latin, waltz, tango, CW, hustle,
>NC2S, and jazz dancers as consummate examples of your reference. Prominent
>by it's omission from the list is WCS. I can't, outside of choreographed
>routines, seem to recognize body-kinesthetics at play in WCS. Or is the
>'play' the artistry? What am I not recognizing as the kinesthetic artistry
>in on-the-fly WCS? How do you and others 'see' WCS as a canvas and paint
>brush, etc?
>
>Ed (Remove X to reply)
Wow. I do primarily hustle and WCS, and it is precisely what I'm
seeing as this "kinesthetic artistry" that attracts me to WCS. I
don't enjoy WCS much at all unless I'm getting into the music with
my body. To me, that's the _essence_ of WCS. Maybe I'm missing
something here about what body-kinesthetics really is.
Lusty
Mike Corbett
>Great reference, Mike. I came away from reading it with a greater sense of
>the bodily-kinesthetics and potential for artistry in dance, not only
>creative moves and interpreting the mood of the music, but spatial artistry
>as well.
>
>My mind can readily visualize ballet, latin, waltz, tango, CW, hustle,
>NC2S, and jazz dancers as consummate examples of your reference. Prominent
>by it's omission from the list is WCS. I can't, outside of choreographed
>routines, seem to recognize body-kinesthetics at play in WCS. Or is the
>'play' the artistry? What am I not recognizing as the kinesthetic artistry
>in on-the-fly WCS? How do you and others 'see' WCS as a canvas and paint
>brush, etc?
Personally, I see the body-kinesthetics at work in all body movement
to one extent or another. The greatest benefit seems to be in the
(continual) learning process.
On-the-fly West Coast Swing in particular but not exclusively requires
much more than just kinesthetic development for excellence. As I
said....
>A dancer like Robert Royston needs more than just kinesthetic gifts.
>Robert also has a similar set of gifts related to music and rhythm and
>a very organized mind, to name but a few. Each is a "talent". :-)
An athlete needs to tap into nature's rhythms to achieve fluid body
movement and must develop the ability to move in new and different
ways to accomplish a physical goal but does not require musical
talent. The coach, like the choreographer needs to see the whole
picture but the athlete need not be a play designer to excell. Great
WCS requires the "athlete/dancer" to have the talent skill and musical
understanding of the choreographer or coach.
Let's use Robert again and me as examples of this musical issue.
There's one thing we have in common so I can relate it well. A
beginner once asked me "how do you do all that stuff with your feet
while the rest of your body is still?" I answered, "I'm just playing
the drums with my feet and leading the rest of the dance with the rest
of my body."
In discussing this exchange with Robert one evening, I disclosed that
my mother played drums in a band while I was growing up. I never
learned to play drums but used to beat out syncopated rhythms with my
hands, fingers and feet for my personal entertainment. Sometimes I
followed music I was hearing and other times I made it up.
Robert recalled Mr. Royston (his Stepfather) beating out syncopated
rhythms with his hands and feet while driving in the car either
listening or not listening to music. Both our early environments
exposed us to those musical concepts and we received further musical
training in various disciplines before taking up dancing.
Robert started using his talents for dance much earlier in life than I
did and has developed them beyond my hopes but the principle applies
to both.
Interpreting music requires one to hear the things to interpret. If
one only hears the beat or rhythm section, he has much less to
interpret than one who hears many of the other aspects of the music.
West Coast Swing for either the choreographer or on-the-fly dancer is
very demanding of additional talents and skills besides kinesthetics
but in addition to talent and skill, to excell requires a high level
of confidence and a desire to entertain and perform.
Does that approach an answer to your question?
Neal
many
people who dance Salsa to Samba.
Terieee
Jay) writes:
>Prominent
>by it's omission from the list is WCS. I can't, outside of choreographed
>routines, seem to recognize body-kinesthetics at play in WCS. Or is the
>'play' the artistry? What am I not recognizing as the kinesthetic artistry
>in on-the-fly WCS? How do you and others 'see' WCS as a canvas and paint
>brush, etc?
>
>Ed (Remove X to reply)
Hi Ed: I think that body-kinesthetics as explained in this instance is better
shown in non-choreographed routines (for the most part -- there are always
exceptions). My interpretation of this would be that special feeling that
radiates into your movements and into your footwork as a natural extension of
you and your partner on that particular dance (WCS). As most of us know, there
are occasions when you come off the floor with that natural high which *I*
experience when this special "something" occurs. Then there is the dance that I
can barely get through because the music, or the partner, or me, or all three
isn't in sync. In my experience again, choreographed routines are more
difficult to "feel" and I may not be in the mood at that moment to do "that"
move, so I have to conjure up feelings that I don't have and go through the
motions anyway. Geezzzzzzzzz I can't believe I said all of that whatever it
was.
BTW, I WILL be there again tomorrow night, and I WILL be watching those
*groping* hands. Caught you last week didn't I?
Teri Ellis
Ming Mar
>>IMO, a Kinesthetically "gifted" person comes pre-wired with these
>>natural skills. All can be developed by healthy motivated individuals
>>but those who come pre-wired tend to excell in a superior way, given
>>similar motivation and effort.
So, how do you teach differently a gifted person, an average person,
and a challenged person?
Ian Finch
>
> Let's use Robert again and me as examples of this musical issue.
> There's one thing we have in common so I can relate it well. A
> beginner once asked me "how do you do all that stuff with your feet
> while the rest of your body is still?" I answered, "I'm just playing
> the drums with my feet and leading the rest of the dance with the rest
> of my body."
>
(salsa). I feel like my feet are beating out rhythms, either along with
the beat or syncopated across it. I've never heard anyone else describe
it the same way. Occasionally, people will ask me to show them
something I've done whilst dancing. Normally, I can't remember anything
I've done, but if I can, they start asking me what count I do something
on and I just can't answer. I can sing a rhythm to them and say that's
what I do, but apart from that, I've got no idea. A couple of times,
I've got a friend (who's a really good dancer) to watch what I do and
then explain it to someone else in terms of counts and stuff. I guess
that's why I'll never be a teacher :-)
Thanks,
Ian
Andy Broomsgove
Maybe you are the man to answer my question about Samba then.
I've learnt quite a lot of ballroom Samba over the years and, although I
confess it's not one of my favourite dances, I can dance it to a
reasonably advanced standard to the kind of music that is usually played
for it.
I also know there are some tracks that are played as Salsa's, but to which
you can dance Ballroom Samba should you desire.
I have also been to a number of things featuring bands who refer to
themselves as "Brazilian Samba Bands". These bands normally only play
percussion instruments in a fairly complex rhythm but one that appears to
be neither Samba as a Ballroom dancer would dance it, nor Salsa in any
way.
They sometimes come with dancers, but the dancers concerned do not dance a
partner dance and do something much closer to what is often called "jazz"
dance.
Is this what they do as "Samba" in Brazil? Or are these bands totally fake
and not doing anything that you'd ever see (or hear) in Brazil?
Does Ballroom Samba relate in anyway to anything danced as Samba in Brazil
(obviously by people other than ballroom dancers)?
I'm quite interested in any answers you might have to this.
Andy
Mike Corbett
>mi...@corbettweb.com (Mike Corbett) wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 26 Aug 1999 01:18:00 GMT, Xe...@aes-intl.com (Ed Jay) wrote:
>>...What am I not recognizing as the kinesthetic artistry
>>>in on-the-fly WCS? How do you and others 'see' WCS as a canvas and paint
>>>brush, etc?
>>
>Let me grab and answer your final question:
>
>>Does that approach an answer to your question?
>>
>No. :-)
>
>Your answer, as informative, comprehensive, and interesting as it was,
>spoke to what is necessary to the total picture in addition to kinesthetic
>artistry. What do you see in your own on-the-fly dancing as bodily
>kinesthetic artistry as defined in your reference. I understand now where
>it can appear with women (e.g., Trish Connery). How about men? Do you
>intend artistic achievement when you dance WCS? Only in rare instances can
>I recall doing so (in addition to trying creative new moves). What kind of
>picture are you creating, and where's my paintbrush?
I intend artistic achievement when I dance WCS but while I think
kinesthetic gifts serve to enable artistic creation with the body it
is other gifts/talent from which the art is concieved.
Whether any individual is successful in creating art with their dance
will be in the eye of the beholder. It's quite possible you would
personally never see anything in my dancing that you considered "art".
When I see Trish Connery dance, I see "art" too. It would be
interesting to hear Trish comment on how she achieves this. Does she
think it's from body-kinesthetics, some other natural talent,
utilization of UUS principles or a combination.
Trish has her own style which I have described as "elegant". She's
told me elegance is a concious intended outcome for her. People have
told me I have my own style but nobody ever described it as elegant. I
don't have label for my intended expression. :-)
Didn't you smoke your paintbrush?
Mike Corbett - Sunnyvale, CA
Facts are cheap...knowing how to use them is precious...
Mike Corbett
wrote:
If you really want to know, there are plenty of references to be found
by searching the net with the simple term "kinesthetic".
My short answer is that there are many learning styles. Dance
students don't fall into even roughly the three categories you
describe. It's more complicated than that. However, in my experience
the kinesthetically gifted can be taught using a higher level of
conceptual instruction and brief demonstration. Explain the needed
concepts. Show them what it looks like and they can reproduce it in
short order. They know when they have reproduced the body movement
because it "feels" like what they "saw". Let them try and fail
without a lot of coaching. Too much input in the reproduction process
will just get in the way. Avoid breaking down the details until you
are sure it's required and then only the required details.
For this same student to teach others what he/she has learned will
require a full comprehension of the details but it's not required in
the reproduction process.
Most of the other teaching methods with which you may be familiar will
work in varying degrees for different learning styles. Students with
less natural talent will require shading the teaching style away from
the conceptual and toward the breakdown of details and slower
progression.
Andy Broomsgove
psych...@aol.com (Psychohist) wrote:
> Mike Corbett posts, in part:
>
> Instructors who recognize that to teach students according to their
> natural talent or learning style will maximize the results.
>
> I've gotten the best results by making my students improve their level
> of
> 'natural' talent.
>
> Talent is important. But it isn't magic. It can be learned, just like
> everything else.
>
Only up to a point, Warren, let's be fair. I don't believe that either you
or I are likely to be world champions no matter how much training we do.
That's not meant as any kind of insult about your (no doubt) excellent
dancing skills, BTW.
Yes, we can improve our skills with tuition and practice, but to get to
the very, very top (or even near it) I think you need to be born with that
"certain something".
Andy
Bruce Stephens
> Yes, we can improve our skills with tuition and practice, but to get
> to the very, very top (or even near it) I think you need to be born
> with that "certain something".
Could be. On the other hand, the one thing that seems to set top
people (in whatever area, although I guess I'm thinking of musicians,
mostly) is that they spend insane amounts of time practicing.
Mike Corbett
<br...@cenderis.demon.co.uk> wrote:
In my experience and observation, getting to the top takes superior
talent, dedication and practice. There are no shortcuts that go all
the way to the top. Each element enhances the others. None are
replaceable.
Icono Clast
> I have also been to a number of things featuring bands who refer to
> themselves as "Brazilian Samba Bands". These bands normally only play
> percussion instruments in a fairly complex rhythm but one that appears to
> be neither Samba as a Ballroom dancer would dance it, nor Salsa in any
> way.
You've answered your own question with "as a Ballroom dancer would
dance it".
> They sometimes come with dancers, but the dancers concerned do not dance
> a partner dance and do something much closer to what is often called
> "jazz" dance.
> Is this what they do as "Samba" in Brazil?
I've never seen Brazilian Samba done indoors except on a stage. What
I've seen has been unlike anything that I've ever danced and
considered to be Samba. I think Brazilian Samba can be related to
Tango Gringo as your Samba can be related to Tango Argentino.
> Or are these bands totally fake and not doing anything that you'd ever
> see (or hear) in Brazil?
Probably not fake and probably just what you'd see in Brazil.
***
The traffic came to a stop. The driver said "Get out! Run to the
corner!" and I did. Coming down the street was a near-death stake
truck upon which were musicians. Around the truck were un-costumed
dancers in their normal Favela garb of semi-rags.
People had poured out of the downtown Rio de Janeiro stores and
restaurants to dance a bit of Samba as the rehearsing Samba school
passed and returned to what they'd been doing when it was gone.
It was closer than three weeks to Carnaval and, as one moved about
town, it was not unusual to come across a Samba school practicing in
a park or vacant lot or even marching down a street.
--
ICONO CLAST: A San Franciscan in (where else?) San Francisco.
LaraP2
>(salsa). I feel like my feet are beating out rhythms, either along with
>the beat or syncopated across it. I've never heard anyone else describe
>it the same way. Occasionally, people will ask me to show them
>something I've done whilst dancing. Normally, I can't remember anything
>I've done, but if I can, they start asking me what count I do something
>on and I just can't answer. I can sing a rhythm to them and say that's
>what I do, but apart from that, I've got no idea. A couple of times,
>I've got a friend (who's a really good dancer) to watch what I do and
>then explain it to someone else in terms of counts and stuff. I guess
>that's why I'll never be a teacher :-)
>
>Thanks,
> Ian
Same here....I do all forms of dance and I always find the right rthymn but ask
me on what count am I doing what - and I'm completely stumped. :-)
Icono Clast
> >Whether any individual is successful in creating art with their dance
> >will be in the eye of the beholder.
But Ed Jay said:
> I think the ultimate test is in the mind's eye of the dancer.
I agree with the previous statement. Perhaps there are those who know
exactly how they look to others but I'm sure their number is very
few. I know that I had no idea of how my dancing looked until I
actually saw a recording of me dancing. I was shocked (on the
positive side) at what I saw. But it is only second parties who can
truly know our success with dance if it is to please others. We know,
through them, how great is our success. I believe we cannot know
without them.
> >When I see Trish Connery dance, I see "art" too...
Me, too. And, when dancing with her, she even has the talent to make
me look good.
Mike Corbett
<sustik...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Mike Corbett wrote:
>
>> Most of the other teaching methods with which you may be familiar will
>> work in varying degrees for different learning styles. Students with
>> less natural talent will require shading the teaching style away from
>> the conceptual and toward the breakdown of details and slower
>> progression.
>
>It seems I qualify for an untalented dancer. :( I always focus on the dynamics of movement in the
>first place and any "feels" only can come to me after that. My overall approach is very
>analytical. But I enjoy the progress I still make from week to week. If I were about to complain
>about what I was given, well, I would gladly get rid of the 1 inch distance between my knees when
>I stand in parallel position! (I have slightly O shaped legs.)
>
>Matyas
It's a mistake to judge talent by adult learning style. Learning
style is greatly influence by the availability of teaching styles.
It's quite possible for kinesthetically gifted and highly talented
dancers to be exposed only to certain teaching and learning styles.
Learning other subject matter may require a highly analytical style.
If we develop "study habits" that are analytical, that environmental
issue is likely to influence our preference for learning about body
movement as well.
Many people mix learning styles quite successfully. The trick is to
use the most efficient one for the matter at hand. :-)
Andy Broomsgove
wrote:
> > They sometimes come with dancers, but the dancers concerned do not
> > dance a partner dance and do something much closer to what is often
> > called "jazz" dance.
>
> > Is this what they do as "Samba" in Brazil?
>
> I've never seen Brazilian Samba done indoors except on a stage. What
> I've seen has been unlike anything that I've ever danced and
> considered to be Samba. I think Brazilian Samba can be related to
> Tango Gringo as your Samba can be related to Tango Argentino.
>
> > Or are these bands totally fake and not doing anything that you'd
> > ever see (or hear) in Brazil?
>
> Probably not fake and probably just what you'd see in Brazil.
Ike, you may well be correct. I was trying to get an answer from someone
who seemed like he (or perhaps his wife) might know for sure.
Actually the Tango comparison isn't really reasonable if you are right,
many of the moves in ballroom tango do have reasonably obvious roots in
Tango Argentino even though the dances look quite different to a casual
onlooker.
What I see as "Brazilian Samba" isn't even a partner dance (as I said) and
it seems odd that the ballroom community invented a partner dance from
scratch, invented music to go with at and then tried to claim it was a
Brazilian folk dance.
The ballroom community has a history of taking a genuine folk dance and
adapting it to suit itself and then adapting music to fit it (essentially
what happened with Tango), but that's not quite the same thing.
Andy
Richard Powers
> What I see as "Brazilian Samba" isn't even a partner dance (as I said) and
> it seems odd that the ballroom community invented a partner dance from
> scratch, invented music to go with at and then tried to claim it was a
> Brazilian folk dance.
>
> The ballroom community has a history of taking a genuine folk dance and
> adapting it to suit itself and then adapting music to fit it (essentially
> what happened with Tango), but that's not quite the same thing.
Close, but that's not quite what happened to the samba and tango.
I've spent quite a bit of time on the evolution of both dances, going
back to descriptions of original forms from the beginning of the century.
Most Brazilians today think that ballroom dancers changed their samba to
fit their tastes. Most Argentines think that social dancers similarly
changed their tango.
Yes and no.
Yes, of course, today's International competition versions have added
lots of ballroom styling and variations.
--> BUT <--
Not many people know that today's informal social ballroom samba and tango
are largely unchanged from the original Brazilian samba and Argentine
tango.
The Brazilians and Argentines have actually changed these dances more over
the years than social ballroom dancers have. (Which is fine -- they are
certainly allowed to change their own dances).
If you are interested, here is the story. You won't read this in any
book... the research is too new:
The Brazilian Maxixe (a two-step or polka "Africanized" in Brazil) was
introduced to Parisian society in 1906. It didn't catch on.
The Parisian dance master and entrepreneur Monsieur Duque introduced it
again a few years later, around 1912, and this time it did enjoy a brief
success in Europe and the States. It is said that the Maxixe was launched
the same year as the Titanic and lasted about as long. ;)
Ten years later, Duque wanted to have another success, so he traveled back
to Brazil and discovered that the dance had changed in its native country.
It had been replaced by a close cousin called the Samba. This Brazilian
two-step no longer traveled around the room, as the Maxixe did, due to the
crowded dance floors, it was a little more energetic. It also retained
many Maxixe steps and figures.
Monsieur Duque introduced the Samba to Paris during the winter season of
1922-23, at his Montmartre dance hall Sheherazade. The Brazilian
orchestra 'Las Batutas' provided music for the premiere. At this time the
samba was virtually unknown outside of Brazil, but within a year it spread
from Paris to the ballrooms of western Europe and the United States.
The Samba was a larger hit in Europe and the U.S. than the Maxixe was.
If Duque had returned to Brazil ten years later, he would have found
ANOTHER version, as the samba continued to evolve in its homeland.
Today's social ballroom Samba retains most of the form as introduced by M.
Duque in 1922 because European and American dancers have had no reason to
reconfigure it. Meanwhile the Samba has continued to evolve in Brazil,
decade-by-decade, until it no longer resembles the original version.
Along the way it evolved away from being a couple dance, and is now mostly
done solo. In the back alleys you can still see a version of the Maxixe
today, which IS still a couple dance in Brazil, related to the Samba de
Lambada.
Brazilians are ASTOUNDED to see the dance which ballroom dancers call
Samba, because they no longer remember their original version. Today's
European/American ballroom Samba is essentially a snapshot of the
early Samba, as seen and carefully recorded in Brazil in 1922. It
resembles today's Samba about as much as snapshots of babies resemble
their grown versions 75 years later.
This same dynamic happened to the Argentine tango when it was transplanted
to Paris around 1908-10 and found fertile soil there. Europeans and
Americans discovered a dance called tango, decided they loved it, and kept
it as a permanent addition to their collection of dances.
With the exception of much-changed "International" (British) competition
ballroom tango (with the non-Argentine head-snaps), social dancers have
had little reason to reconfigure the version they adopted in 1910. So
they didn't change it much. Really.
In Buenos and Montevideo, the tango changed, and changed again, like any
living tradition.
Juan Carlos Copes told me that when he traveled to New York City dance
studios in 1959 to teach the Argentine tango as it had evolved in its
homeland over fifty years, most of the studios said, "No thank you, we
already *have* a dance called tango and we don't need a different one."
So he had to wait another 20 years before the northern hemisphere was
ready to accept the newer tango Argentino.
Yes, I have detailed, illustrated descriptions of El Tango Argentino de
Salon written by Argentine dance instructors in Buenos Aires in 1914, and
it is (was) VERY similar to today's social ballroom tango, and not too
much like today's tango Argentino. Again because 'gringo' dancers have
had no reason to change it, and Argentines have.
Richard