ISTANBUL, the name
Nahali
somewhat similar?
For example:
I STAN B UL
CONSTANTINOP LE
-J
Coby (Jacob) Lubliner
Yes and no. The "bul" of Istanbul and the "ple" of Constantinople
both derive from the Greek "poli(s)" (city). The usual etymology of
Istanbul is that it comes from the Greek "eis ten Poli", "to the
city".
Coby
mb
Nahali wrote in message <19991221234544...@ng-da1.aol.com>...
> Is it just coincidence that the name Istanbul and Constantinople look
>somewhat similar?
>For example:
> I STAN B UL
>CONSTANTINOP LE
No. The first is a direct derivation from the first. There also is a popular
explanation on its being the expression "is tin Bolin (eis thn Polhn)" =
into the City; however this looks like folk etymology. Most toponymies with
the last component "polis", even if not preceded by nasal consonant, have
become "-bolu". The "-bul" form is rarer.
Chris Tang
>>somewhat similar?
>>For example:
>> I STAN B UL
>>CONSTANTINOP LE
>
>both derive from the Greek "poli(s)" (city). The usual etymology of
>Istanbul is that it comes from the Greek "eis ten Poli", "to the
>city".
>
>Coby
How about "STAN"?
Yusuf B Gursey
: Nahali wrote in message <19991221234544...@ng-da1.aol.com>...
: > Is it just coincidence that the name Istanbul and Constantinople look
: >somewhat similar?
: >For example:
: > I STAN B UL
: >CONSTANTINOP LE
: No. The first is a direct derivation from the first. There also is a popular
: explanation on its being the expression "is tin Bolin (eis thn Polhn)" =
: into the City; however this looks like folk etymology. Most toponymies with
it is not folk etymology, it i s the accepted etymology.
: the last component "polis", even if not preceded by nasal consonant, have
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
<chri...@telebot.com> wrote:
>Coby (Jacob) Lubliner wrote in message <83pllr$s8v$1...@agate.berkeley.edu>...
>> The usual etymology of
>>Istanbul is that it comes from the Greek "eis ten Poli", "to the
>>city".
>
>How about "STAN"?
>
Presumably, it's from a dialectal form <eis ta:n poulin> --> <is
tan buli>. <Ta:n> would seem to be Doric (for Attic <te:n>), but
I'm not sure about <poulis> for Attic <polis>, Homeric <ptolis>.
==
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal ~ ~
Amsterdam _____________ ~ ~
m...@wxs.nl |_____________|||
========================== Ce .sig n'est pas une .cig
Yusuf B Gursey
: On Wed, 22 Dec 1999 13:05:16 +0800, "Chris Tang"
: <chri...@telebot.com> wrote:
: >Coby (Jacob) Lubliner wrote in message <83pllr$s8v$1...@agate.berkeley.edu>...
: >> The usual etymology of
: >>Istanbul is that it comes from the Greek "eis ten Poli", "to the
: >>city".
: >
: >How about "STAN"?
: >
: Presumably, it's from a dialectal form <eis ta:n poulin> --> <is
: tan buli>. <Ta:n> would seem to be Doric (for Attic <te:n>), but
: I'm not sure about <poulis> for Attic <polis>, Homeric <ptolis>.
a development from istanbol to istanbul seems to have developed within
turkish and would be normal. turkish avoids o and o" after the first
syllable.
: ==
Tore Lund
>
> Miguel Carrasquer Vidal (m...@wxs.nl) wrote:
> : On Wed, 22 Dec 1999 13:05:16 +0800, "Chris Tang"
> : <chri...@telebot.com> wrote:
>
> : >Coby (Jacob) Lubliner wrote in message <83pllr$s8v$1...@agate.berkeley.edu>...
> : >> The usual etymology of
> : >>Istanbul is that it comes from the Greek "eis ten Poli", "to the
> : >>city".
> : >
> : >How about "STAN"?
> : >
>
> : Presumably, it's from a dialectal form <eis ta:n poulin> --> <is
> : tan buli>. <Ta:n> would seem to be Doric (for Attic <te:n>), but
> : I'm not sure about <poulis> for Attic <polis>, Homeric <ptolis>.
>
> a development from istanbol to istanbul seems to have developed within
> turkish and would be normal. turkish avoids o and o" after the first
> syllable.
Besides, isn't the reference to Doric and Attic a bit anachronistic?
There must be a reason for that "stan" syllable in more modern Greek or
Turkish phonology.
--
Tore Lund <tl...@online.no>
Coby (Jacob) Lubliner
Yusuf B Gursey <y...@world.std.com> wrote:
>mb (mmbDEL...@concenDELETEtric.net) wrote:
>
>: Nahali wrote in message <19991221234544...@ng-da1.aol.com>...
>: > Is it just coincidence that the name Istanbul and Constantinople look
>: >somewhat similar?
>: >For example:
>: > I STAN B UL
>: >CONSTANTINOP LE
>
>
>: No. The first is a direct derivation from the first. There also is a popular
>: explanation on its being the expression "is tin Bolin (eis thn Polhn)" =
>: into the City; however this looks like folk etymology. Most toponymies with
>
>it is not folk etymology, it i s the accepted etymology.
It may be accepted by some, or even by many, but I also find it
doubtful. There are so many distortions in the Turkification of
Greek place names (e.g. Adrianoupolis -> Edirne, Smyrna -> izmir)
that a direct Konstantinoupolis -> istanbul [sorry, I have no capital
dotted i available] cannot be categorically ruled out.
Coby
Yusuf B Gursey
: In article <Fn4v5...@world.std.com>,
: Coby
those taht have researched the subject have ruled it out.
Yusuf B Gursey
I found teh following post on teh subject of the vowels:
=============
From: cluste...@yale.edu (Cluster User)
Subject: Re: peking-xian
Date: 22 Feb 1999 00:00:00 GMT
Message-ID: <36d09f6e....@news.yale.edu>
References: <79ufh5$gea$1...@mach.vub.ac.be> <36C312...@csus.edu>
<36C360AC...@boshi.com> <36C38949...@mbay.net>
<36c51a1d....@news2.means.net> <36c5cc06....@news.yale.edu>
<36C8F94E...@montclair.edu>
Organization: Yale University
Newsgroups: rec.travel.asia,sci.lang
On Mon, 15 Feb 1999 23:51:26 -0500, "H.M.Hubey" <hub...@montclair.edu>
wrote:
>Cluster User wrote:
>>
>> Mark Odegard wrote:
>>
>>
>> name. some names were changed for ideological reasons.
>>
>> >comes from something like eis tan polis, 'of the city', which
>>
>> eis thn polin "to the city" see enc. of islam II "istanbul"
>> for a full history of the various names.
>> istanbul was the most popular name among turks,
>> arabic qusTanTi:niyya(t) was used mainly in the
>> arabic language portion of formal headings. other
>> names were coined reffering to imperial grandieur.
>
>Ibn Battuta's travelogue uses both words, Istanbul
>and Qostantaniyya. Maybe one of them referred to a
>specific part of the city, or the translator decided
>to use two different names.
>
I don't think so. properly istanbul was the old
byzantine city in ottoman times as well. the
use "istanbul tarafI" - the istanbul side - for
this side of the golden horn is recent. evliya
c,elebi also uses both words as far as I can see
arbitrarily.
>
>> >was the Greek nickname.
>
>
>From the form of it, it could have been the Slavs who
>changed it to Istanbul. Turks would have probably pronounced
>it as istinbUl.
the -a- form may be armenian, continued by arab
(and later turkish) sources.
there is istanko"y for the island of kos in turkish
(perhaps false etymology with ko"y - village).
stanbu:lin is attributed to al-mas'u:di: ("o" would
not shown in arabic as well as bu:lin / bo:lin) as
"the greek name of the city" (10th cent.) I don't
know if the original manuscript contained the vowel
signs, but this is the way enc. of islam II has it.
enc.of islam I has some arab -a- forms atribituted to
slightly later sources, at least one is a dictionary
which would certainly be voweled. (see enc. of islam
I)
both -i- and -a- forms are attributed to early
ottoman (vowels were not always shown, but the later
spelling is clearly with -a-), as well as -o- forms.
a 16th century western source has stimboli for greek
and stambol for turkish. a 14th century source has
istimboli
note also the punning name islambol, attributed to
fatih (mehemmed II) by a contemporary armenian source.
12th century armenian has stampol.
note the -a- in qusTanTi:niyya(t).
the change of -o- to -u- is normal for turkish,
especially after the first syllable.
the initial i- is always written defectively
(just an alif), indicating it was regarded
as a "helping vowel".
see enc. of islam II "istanbul" for references,
as well as transactions of the american
philological society 78, 1947 p. 347-67
and enc. of islam I "constantinople",
the volume was written before the republic.
>
>--
>Best Regards,
>Mark
>-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>hub...@montclair.edu =-=-=-= http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Vassil Karloukovski
>>it is not folk etymology, it i s the accepted etymology.
>
>It may be accepted by some, or even by many, but I also find it
>doubtful. There are so many distortions in the Turkification of
>Greek place names (e.g. Adrianoupolis -> Edirne, Smyrna -> izmir)
>that a direct Konstantinoupolis -> istanbul [sorry, I have no capital
>dotted i available] cannot be categorically ruled out.
wasn't there a tendency in Turkish to put "i-" in front of some
(foreign) words? If I am not wrong, the mountain massif between
Bulgaria and Turkey that we call "Strandzha" is "Istrandzha" or
something similar in Turkish.
Regards,
Vassil K.
>Coby
Yusuf B Gursey
: In article <83qqcb$1br$1...@agate.berkeley.edu>, Coby Jacob says...
yes. 'eis sthn polin was contracted to stinpoli in collloquail greek and
i- may have been added by turks (or others who avoid consonant clusters).
: Regards,
: Vassil K.
: >Coby
Yusuf B Gursey
: In article <83qqcb$1br$1...@agate.berkeley.edu>, Coby Jacob says...
: >In article <Fn4v5...@world.std.com>, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@world.std.com> wrote:
: >>it is not folk etymology, it i s the accepted etymology.
: >
: >It may be accepted by some, or even by many, but I also find it
: >doubtful. There are so many distortions in the Turkification of
: >Greek place names (e.g. Adrianoupolis -> Edirne, Smyrna -> izmir)
: >that a direct Konstantinoupolis -> istanbul [sorry, I have no capital
: >dotted i available] cannot be categorically ruled out.
: wasn't there a tendency in Turkish to put "i-" in front of some
: (foreign) words? If I am not wrong, the mountain massif between
: Bulgaria and Turkey that we call "Strandzha" is "Istrandzha" or
: something similar in Turkish.
there is an argument why the i- may have been added later on in the
article i reposted.
: Regards,
: Vassil K.
: >Coby
Yusuf B Gursey
: Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
: >
: > Miguel Carrasquer Vidal (m...@wxs.nl) wrote:
: > : On Wed, 22 Dec 1999 13:05:16 +0800, "Chris Tang"
: > : <chri...@telebot.com> wrote:
: >
: > : >Coby (Jacob) Lubliner wrote in message <83pllr$s8v$1...@agate.berkeley.edu>...
: > : >> The usual etymology of
: > : >>Istanbul is that it comes from the Greek "eis ten Poli", "to the
: > : >>city".
: > : >
: > : >How about "STAN"?
: > : >
: >
: > : Presumably, it's from a dialectal form <eis ta:n poulin> --> <is
: > : tan buli>. <Ta:n> would seem to be Doric (for Attic <te:n>), but
: > : I'm not sure about <poulis> for Attic <polis>, Homeric <ptolis>.
: >
: > a development from istanbol to istanbul seems to have developed within
: > turkish and would be normal. turkish avoids o and o" after the first
: > syllable.
: Besides, isn't the reference to Doric and Attic a bit anachronistic?
: There must be a reason for that "stan" syllable in more modern Greek or
: Turkish phonology.
interestingly some archaicisms seem to be preserved in place names,
perhaps through the medium of other languges. note angora, older ottoman
engu"ru", where the labial qualtuty of upsilonof ancyra seems to be
preserved.
: --
: Tore Lund <tl...@online.no>
mb
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal wrote in message <3860a6a6...@news.wxs.nl>...
>On Wed, 22 Dec 1999 13:05:16 +0800, "Chris Tang"
><chri...@telebot.com> wrote:
>
>>Coby (Jacob) Lubliner wrote in message
<83pllr$s8v$1...@agate.berkeley.edu>...
>>> The usual etymology of
>>>Istanbul is that it comes from the Greek "eis ten Poli", "to the
>>>city".
>>
>>How about "STAN"?
>>
>
>Presumably, it's from a dialectal form <eis ta:n poulin> --> <is
>tan buli>. <Ta:n> would seem to be Doric (for Attic <te:n>), but
>I'm not sure about <poulis> for Attic <polis>, Homeric <ptolis>.
1. No one spoke Doric in the area at the time (10th century and later). The
eta in thn could have had the old e value, but most indices (transcriptions
and dysorthography) point to more or less consistent i. By the way, not only
was the final -is already H (pron. i), but the Gr>Tr transfer is generally
in the accusative anyway.
2. When you do a systematic review of Gr>Tr (particular note: very good job
by Symeonidis, "Der Vokalismus der griechischen Lehnwoerter im Tuerkischen,
Thessaloniki 1976) the stin > istan is the rule.
3. I don't buy the "eis thn Polhn" origin. /Ko(n)stantinoupoli/ should give
Konstanbolu or Konstanbul; also /'stinoupoli/ (abbrev. either in Gr or in
Tr, as in many more toponymics) > Istanbul or Istanbolu. The initial
euphonic i is obligatory, the a as second vocal conforms to the rule of
pre-assimilation to final back vowel, the "bolu" or "bul" is the rule with
all -polh, even if p was not preceded by a nasal. So the origin from
the hypothetical phrase really sounds like folk etymology.
Tisinli
Where does "Islam bol" ([the city with] many moslems;
and
"[al]asita:nah" (a.s.t.a:.n.t.) used in modern Arabic history
books fit in?
Yusuf B Gursey
: Miguel Carrasquer Vidal wrote in message <3860a6a6...@news.wxs.nl>...
: >On Wed, 22 Dec 1999 13:05:16 +0800, "Chris Tang"
: ><chri...@telebot.com> wrote:
: >
: >>Coby (Jacob) Lubliner wrote in message
: <83pllr$s8v$1...@agate.berkeley.edu>...
: >>> The usual etymology of
: >>>Istanbul is that it comes from the Greek "eis ten Poli", "to the
: >>>city".
: >>
: >>How about "STAN"?
: >>
: >
: >Presumably, it's from a dialectal form <eis ta:n poulin> --> <is
: >tan buli>. <Ta:n> would seem to be Doric (for Attic <te:n>), but
: >I'm not sure about <poulis> for Attic <polis>, Homeric <ptolis>.
: 1. No one spoke Doric in the area at the time (10th century and later). The
: eta in thn could have had the old e value, but most indices (transcriptions
: and dysorthography) point to more or less consistent i. By the way, not only
: was the final -is already H (pron. i), but the Gr>Tr transfer is generally
: in the accusative anyway.
: 2. When you do a systematic review of Gr>Tr (particular note: very good job
: by Symeonidis, "Der Vokalismus der griechischen Lehnwoerter im Tuerkischen,
: Thessaloniki 1976) the stin > istan is the rule.
which would confirm taht it came from eis sthn polin. there is also
istanko"(the island mentioned by the poster), not having anything to do
with "constantine". according to the same poster the -i- fom was used by
the greeks. at some time constantinoplis and stimboli seem to have
coexisted, the latter refering to the old "downtown".
: 3. I don't buy the "eis thn Polhn" origin. /Ko(n)stantinoupoli/ should give
: Konstanbolu or Konstanbul; also /'stinoupoli/ (abbrev. either in Gr or in
: Tr, as in many more toponymics) > Istanbul or Istanbolu. The initial
: euphonic i is obligatory, the a as second vocal conforms to the rule of
: pre-assimilation to final back vowel, the "bolu" or "bul" is the rule with
: all -polh, even if p was not preceded by a nasal. So the origin from
: the hypothetical phrase really sounds like folk etymology.
you just made a case that it was not. p -> b even without a nasal could be
exlpained as coming through armenian, arabic or a misreading of the arabic
script (later p nad b distinctions were made, but earlier this is not so
consistent) or even a turkish phenomenon in some cases.
at any rate, the final word amongst scholars is taht istanbul is not from
constantinople.
Yusuf B Gursey
: y...@world.std.com (Yusuf B Gursey) wote:
a "folk etymology". the name is attributed to fatih by armenian sources,
according to the poster. the word was used in ottoman coins for a while.
: "[al]asita:nah" (a.s.t.a:.n.t.) used in modern Arabic history
: books fit in?
a:sta:ne is persian for "capital", turkicized as asitane. one of the many
names of the city during ottoman times.
mb
Yusuf B Gursey wrote in message ...
i form? What do you mean, the initial euphemic i is obligatory anyway.
>the greeks. at some time constantinoplis and stimboli seem to have
>coexisted, the latter refering to the old "downtown".
/stimboli/ of course always existed and continues for all cities and towns,
and, yes, Const. was (and for many people still is) "Polh" tout court.
>you just made a case that it was not. p -> b even without a nasal could be
>exlpained as coming through armenian, arabic or a misreading of the arabic
>script (later p nad b distinctions were made, but earlier this is not so
>consistent) or even a turkish phenomenon in some cases.
Again, before you speak you have to review systematically Gr>Tr
correspondences, as in the labial plosives - the regularity of the voiced
one for both Gr. b and p will then appear clearly. No need for any arabic
intermediary here.
>at any rate, the final word amongst scholars is taht istanbul is not from
>constantinople.
Don't be ridiculous. Final word forsooth! Scholars here, scholars there, no
need for scholars but correspondence tables (which are still not completely
established for Gr>Tr and one needs a large private database too) and clear
methodology. I don't give a hoot about unsupported opinion. Not all have
bought it, and establishing facts (or, as in etymology where there are no
facts, probabilities) has nothing to do with a majority vote by a senate.
Just calling your attention to the fact that those "scholars" have gotten
that "final word" either without a systematic enough approach (they don't
offer any), or, for the majority, just quote an opinion from another.
Etymology, when done out of "etymologic dictionaries" instead of single word
study is just guesswork in all words not supported step by step by texts.
Anyway, once upon a time the final word among scholars on the shape of the
Earth was not the one they're selling now. If it were for people who respect
that, it wouldn't ever have changed.
Peter T. Daniels
> at any rate, the final word amongst scholars is taht istanbul is not from
> constantinople.
When was there ever a "final word" amongst scholars??
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@worldnet.att.net
Peter T. Daniels
> Anyway, once upon a time the final word among scholars on the shape of the
> Earth was not the one they're selling now. If it were for people who respect
> that, it wouldn't ever have changed.
?? Are you talking about "belief" in a Flat Earth? That's a legend
invented by Washington Irving in his hagiographic biography of Columbus
ca. 1850.
Yusuf B Gursey
: Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
: > at any rate, the final word amongst scholars is taht istanbul is not from
: > constantinople.
: When was there ever a "final word" amongst scholars??
than let us say that scholars are pretty confident of this and an
alternative hypothesis without a new discovery would fail to genearte
interest.
: --
: Peter T. Daniels gram...@worldnet.att.net
Yusuf B Gursey
: Yusuf B Gursey wrote in message ...
no, I mean istinboli,the second -i-- instead of --a-
: >the greeks. at some time constantinoplis and stimboli seem to have
: >coexisted, the latter refering to the old "downtown".
: /stimboli/ of course always existed and continues for all cities and towns,
: and, yes, Const. was (and for many people still is) "Polh" tout court.
: >you just made a case that it was not. p -> b even without a nasal could be
: >exlpained as coming through armenian, arabic or a misreading of the arabic
: >script (later p nad b distinctions were made, but earlier this is not so
: >consistent) or even a turkish phenomenon in some cases.
: Again, before you speak you have to review systematically Gr>Tr
: correspondences, as in the labial plosives - the regularity of the voiced
: one for both Gr. b and p will then appear clearly. No need for any arabic
: intermediary here.
in this case there may have been one.
: >at any rate, the final word amongst scholars is taht istanbul is not from
: >constantinople.
: Don't be ridiculous. Final word forsooth! Scholars here, scholars there, no
: need for scholars but correspondence tables (which are still not completely
: established for Gr>Tr and one needs a large private database too) and clear
the name seems to be before the turks.
: methodology. I don't give a hoot about unsupported opinion. Not all have
all I am saying is that it is not "folk etymology" but the established
one, after considering the other alternative which is teh one you
mentioned. teh people who did these were not amateurs and applied the
neccessary rigor. the poster gave some references, I'll try to give more
after vacation.
: bought it, and establishing facts (or, as in etymology where there are no
: facts, probabilities) has nothing to do with a majority vote by a senate.
: Just calling your attention to the fact that those "scholars" have gotten
: that "final word" either without a systematic enough approach (they don't
: offer any), or, for the majority, just quote an opinion from another.
: Etymology, when done out of "etymologic dictionaries" instead of single word
: study is just guesswork in all words not supported step by step by texts.
there are some articles on the subject.
: Anyway, once upon a time the final word among scholars on the shape of the
Yusuf B Gursey
: : Where does "Islam bol" ([the city with] many moslems;
: : and
: a "folk etymology". the name is attributed to fatih by armenian sources,
: according to the poster. the word was used in ottoman coins for a while.
: : "[al]asita:nah" (a.s.t.a:.n.t.) used in modern Arabic history
: : books fit in?
: a:sta:ne is persian for "capital", turkicized as asitane. one of the many
: names of the city during ottoman times.
originally a gate or threshhold (e$ik).
for some reason this name seems to have been used by arabs quite a lot. I
also saw it used in memoires written in arabic.
mb
>: >Vassil Karloukovski (e.karlo...@uea.ac.uk) wrote:
>: >: wasn't there a tendency in Turkish to put "i-" in front of some
>: >: (foreign) words? If I am not wrong, the mountain massif between
>: >: Bulgaria and Turkey that we call "Strandzha" is "Istrandzha" or
>: >: something similar in Turkish.
>: >there is an argument why the i- may have been added later on in the
>: >article i reposted.
Not a tendency. A rule. In this case (-sC) the euphonic i / i^ is required
(as the euphonic e would be in Spanish).
Yusuf B Gursey
: >: >Vassil Karloukovski (e.karlo...@uea.ac.uk) wrote:
assuming i^ represent the back vowel I, not long i^.
Coby (Jacob) Lubliner
But doesn't that depend on whether the following vowel is front or
back? For example, Smyrna -> izmir.
Coby
Yusuf B Gursey
yes, with some exceptions.
: Coby
Yusuf B Gursey
: : Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
: : > at any rate, the final word amongst scholars is taht istanbul is not from
: : > constantinople.
: : When was there ever a "final word" amongst scholars??
: than let us say that scholars are pretty confident of this and an
: alternative hypothesis without a new discovery would fail to genearte
: interest.
enc. of islam II "istanbul" puts it this way:
... It is no longer in question that the Turkish forms (Stinbol/Stanbol >
[...] > istan(m)bul derive from the Greek eis thn polin (for the
arguments against Constantinupolis > Constandipol see Oberhummer, loc.
cit.; D. J. Georgacas, The name of Constantinople, in American
Philological Association: Transactions, lxxvii (1947), 347-67).
actually Georgacas emphasizes that it should be ... Polin (in capital
letters, i.e. used asa proper name).
: : --
: : Peter T. Daniels gram...@worldnet.att.net
Yusuf B Gursey
: : : Where does "Islam bol" ([the city with] many moslems;
: : : and
: : a "folk etymology". the name is attributed to fatih by armenian sources,
: : according to the poster. the word was used in ottoman coins for a while.
: : : "[al]asita:nah" (a.s.t.a:.n.t.) used in modern Arabic history
: : : books fit in?
: : a:sta:ne is persian for "capital", turkicized as asitane. one of the many
: : names of the city during ottoman times.
: originally a gate or threshhold (e$ik).
an alternative name for istanbul was a^sita^ne-i saadet analogous to the
name der-i saadet (shortened to dersaadet) "gate of felicity" (enc. of
islam I). dersaadet was used frequently in official work during the final
phase of the empire, the second constitutional period.
: for some reason this name seems to have been used by arabs quite a lot. I
Mike Cleven
Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
> see enc. of islam II "istanbul" for references,
> as well as transactions of the american
> philological society 78, 1947 p. 347-67
>
Philip Mansel's "Constantinople: City of the World's Desire" has an extensive listing
and examination of the name(s) in its first chapter.
>
> and enc. of islam I "constantinople",
> the volume was written before the republic.
The Sublime Porte itself used the term "Constantinople". I don't think the Conquerer
himself sought to rename it, or at least to replace that name, although it was
bestowed with many names and titles over the centuries, before and after the
Conquest.....
Mike Cleven
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Dec 1999 13:05:16 +0800, "Chris Tang"
> <chri...@telebot.com> wrote:
>
> >Coby (Jacob) Lubliner wrote in message <83pllr$s8v$1...@agate.berkeley.edu>...
> >> The usual etymology of
> >>Istanbul is that it comes from the Greek "eis ten Poli", "to the
> >>city".
> >
> >How about "STAN"?
> >
>
> Presumably, it's from a dialectal form <eis ta:n poulin> --> <is
> tan buli>. <Ta:n> would seem to be Doric (for Attic <te:n>), but
> I'm not sure about <poulis> for Attic <polis>, Homeric <ptolis>.
Well, that was the etymology given in an editorial in the Athens News when I was
there - concerning the commonalities of Turkish and Greek culture and language.
The rendering they gave (modern Attic, of course) was "eis tin polis";
presumably that was acceptable to those Greeks whose heritage is
Constantinopolitan, and they are many.
The "stan" formation is incidental, of course; I don't think that there's any
way to make I-stan-bul form any kind of phrase in Ottoman, Arabic, Turkish or
anything else. One of the city's many proposed/unofficial/official names was
Islamabol, but that's the closest any of the city's many other names come to
Istanbul, except for the 19th Century European adaption Stamboul......
Mike Cleven
mb wrote:
>
> 3. I don't buy the "eis thn Polhn" origin. /Ko(n)stantinoupoli/ should give
> Konstanbolu or Konstanbul; also /'stinoupoli/ (abbrev. either in Gr or in
> Tr, as in many more toponymics) > Istanbul or Istanbolu. The initial
> euphonic i is obligatory, the a as second vocal conforms to the rule of
> pre-assimilation to final back vowel, the "bolu" or "bul" is the rule with
> all -polh, even if p was not preceded by a nasal. So the origin from
> the hypothetical phrase really sounds like folk etymology.
In modern Greek (and its predecessors, including medieval Greek), Constantinople
was known simply as "the City", i.e. THE City. Ten poli(s)......
Mike Cleven
Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
>
>
> : : a:sta:ne is persian for "capital", turkicized as asitane. one of the many
> : : names of the city during ottoman times.
>
> : originally a gate or threshhold (e$ik).
>
> an alternative name for istanbul was a^sita^ne-i saadet analogous to the
> name der-i saadet (shortened to dersaadet) "gate of felicity" (enc. of
> islam I). dersaadet was used frequently in official work during the final
> phase of the empire, the second constitutional period.
I saw that somewhere, too, but it was in reference to the name perhaps having
been appropriated from one of the main entry portals of the Topkapi; the "gate of
felicity" being that porch where imperial gifts and privileges were bestowed (and
justice dispatched).
Patrick Chew
Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
> "asithane" (as given by your source) doesn't exist in persian or turkish.
> it is asitane. asithane doesn't exist because that would asit + hane
> (house) and "asit" doesn't exist (except in "franco-persian" meaning
> "acid house"!).
If the quote was citing a French source (or even an English source..),
the use of <th> for 'aspirated-t' would be normal for French (though
semi-redundant for English), such that <asithane> would represent
[asit'an] (let ' = aspiration), cf. _Th_ailand, _Th_omas, _Th_ames,
etc... (hrm.. sorry.. no real French examples tonight...).
cheers,
-Patrick
Brian M. Scott
> Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
<Thenet>, a surname from a diminutive of <Etienne>, and <Thuillier>, a
variant of the occupational surname <Tuilier> 'tiler'; the <h> here, as
in <Thames>, seems to be a later medieval addition.
Brian M. Scott
Yusuf B Gursey
: Miguel Carrasquer Vidal wrote:
: > On Wed, 22 Dec 1999 13:05:16 +0800, "Chris Tang"
: > <chri...@telebot.com> wrote:
: >
: > >Coby (Jacob) Lubliner wrote in message <83pllr$s8v$1...@agate.berkeley.edu>...
: > >> The usual etymology of
: > >>Istanbul is that it comes from the Greek "eis ten Poli", "to the
: > >>city".
: > >
: > >How about "STAN"?
: > >
: >
: > Presumably, it's from a dialectal form <eis ta:n poulin> --> <is
: > tan buli>. <Ta:n> would seem to be Doric (for Attic <te:n>), but
: > I'm not sure about <poulis> for Attic <polis>, Homeric <ptolis>.
: Well, that was the etymology given in an editorial in the Athens News
: when I was
: there - concerning the commonalities of Turkish and Greek culture and language.
: The rendering they gave (modern Attic, of course) was "eis tin polis";
: presumably that was acceptable to those Greeks whose heritage is
: Constantinopolitan, and they are many.
: The "stan" formation is incidental, of course; I don't think that there's any
: way to make I-stan-bul form any kind of phrase in Ottoman, Arabic, Turkish or
: anything else. One of the city's many proposed/unofficial/official names was
huh? you just explained it.
: Islamabol, but that's the closest any of the city's many other names come to
it was "islambol" suggesting "abundant in islam" in turkish.
: Istanbul, except for the 19th Century European adaption Stamboul......
Yusuf B Gursey
: Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
: > see enc. of islam II "istanbul" for references,
: > as well as transactions of the american
: > philological society 78, 1947 p. 347-67
: >
: Philip Mansel's "Constantinople: City of the World's Desire" has an
: extensive listing
: and examination of the name(s) in its first chapter.
enc. of islam II is much more accurate and detailed!
"asithane" (as given by your source) doesn't exist in persian or turkish.
it is asitane. asithane doesn't exist because that would asit + hane
(house) and "asit" doesn't exist (except in "franco-persian" meaning
"acid house"!).
: >
: > and enc. of islam I "constantinople",
: > the volume was written before the republic.
:: The Sublime Porte itself used the term "Constantinople". I don't think
you mean "qustanti^niyye"
in coins (in an arabic language phrase), and in titles of firmans (except
in a ratehr lengthy period when "islambol" was used). in the portions of
the text written in plainer turkish (even of an official character)
istanbul, dersaadet etc. were used.
: the Conquerer
: himself sought to rename it, or at least to replace that name, although
it is not claimed that he renamed it, merely that he added a name. it is
really quite in character with him, apealing to different sentiments to
different audiences.
: it was
Yusuf B Gursey
: Patrick Chew wrote:
: > Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
: > > "asithane" (as given by your source) doesn't exist in persian or turkish.
: > > it is asitane. asithane doesn't exist because that would asit + hane
: > > (house) and "asit" doesn't exist (except in "franco-persian" meaning
: > > "acid house"!).
: > If the quote was citing a French source (or even an English source..),
: > the use of <th> for 'aspirated-t' would be normal for French (though
: > semi-redundant for English), such that <asithane> would represent
: > [asit'an] (let ' = aspiration), cf. _Th_ailand, _Th_omas, _Th_ames,
: > etc... (hrm.. sorry.. no real French examples tonight...).
I was kidding about "franco-persian". "acid" and "hane" was joke on my
part. the author probably thought he was correcting a turkish source. in
modern turkish, reflecting the colloquail pronounciation, a few words
ending in -hane have lost the h- (originally a x-). however, "asitane" is
not one of them. it never had an -h-, never was there a hypercorrect form
with -h-.
: <Thenet>, a surname from a diminutive of <Etienne>, and <Thuillier>, a
Mike Cleven
Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
> Brian M. Scott (BMS...@stratos.net) wrote:
> : Patrick Chew wrote:
>
> : > Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
>
> : > > "asithane" (as given by your source) doesn't exist in persian or turkish.
> : > > it is asitane. asithane doesn't exist because that would asit + hane
> : > > (house) and "asit" doesn't exist (except in "franco-persian" meaning
> : > > "acid house"!).
>
> : > If the quote was citing a French source (or even an English source..),
> : > the use of <th> for 'aspirated-t' would be normal for French (though
> : > semi-redundant for English), such that <asithane> would represent
> : > [asit'an] (let ' = aspiration), cf. _Th_ailand, _Th_omas, _Th_ames,
> : > etc... (hrm.. sorry.. no real French examples tonight...).
>
> I was kidding about "franco-persian". "acid" and "hane" was joke on my
> part. the author probably thought he was correcting a turkish source. in
> modern turkish, reflecting the colloquail pronounciation, a few words
> ending in -hane have lost the h- (originally a x-). however, "asitane" is
> not one of them. it never had an -h-, never was there a hypercorrect form
> with -h-.
I'm sure the author - Mansel - knew exactly what he was quoting; I'm not sure how the
name in question is spelled in the book I cited; unless you were talking about the
post I posted to that had the "asithane" spelling.....
Yusuf B Gursey
: Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
I don't remember your post, I looked up the book and it is clearly wrong
on this point. check a dozen dictionaries if you don't believe me.