Rims, hubs, and spokes
Matt Daniel
getting into racing but I also commute and do a lot of all-round riding (150
miles/week). Can I get wheels that can take quite a bit of punishment and
still be considered race-worthy (i.e. light and strong). Would it make more
sense to have a decent pair of wheels for general riding and training and
another set just for racing? I should also mention that I ride in the
rainy, hilly Pacific NW.
I suspect that I'm not the only one confused about the benefits of bladed
spokes, aero-rims, after-market hubs and the like. I've heard the bit about
"light, cheap, and strong...pick any two". I guess I'll sacrifice the
"cheap". I've come this far, why be frugal now? Thanks in advance for the
feedback.
-matt
Steve Freides
sense. I would make the everyday set light and probably not use
aero-shaped rims, and then I'd go for aero-shaped rims on the race
wheels where speeds would be higher and it would make a measurable
difference. Light wheels are nice when riding by yourself on hills.
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+ For those of you who don't see newsgroup and mail headers, I am +
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Vecchio51
still be considered race-worthy (i.e. light and strong).""
No such thing as a free lunch-if you want them light, they will be less
reliable-sounds like you need at least a lighter rear race wheel-
If your racing is in a bunch(not time trials) and the area is hilly-what you
nedd, IMO, is light, not aero-mostly because if it's aero it's heavier-unless
you spend the money for something like a Zipp 340(almost $300 for the rim
ONLY)-
Peter
Mark Atanowicz
"Matt Daniel" <mda...@nospam.net> writes:
> I'm seeking opinions on a good wheel strategy to fit my situation. I'm just
> getting into racing but I also commute and do a lot of all-round riding (150
> miles/week). Can I get wheels that can take quite a bit of punishment and
> still be considered race-worthy (i.e. light and strong). Would it make more
> sense to have a decent pair of wheels for general riding and training and
> another set just for racing? I should also mention that I ride in the
> rainy, hilly Pacific NW.
> I suspect that I'm not the only one confused about the benefits of bladed
> spokes, aero-rims, after-market hubs and the like. I've heard the bit about
> "light, cheap, and strong...pick any two". I guess I'll sacrifice the
> "cheap". I've come this far, why be frugal now? Thanks in advance for the
> feedback.
What are you riding now? How much do you weigh?
Mark Atanowicz
"Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad
judgement."
Rick Denney
wrote:
>I'm seeking opinions on a good wheel strategy to fit my situation. I'm just
>getting into racing but I also commute and do a lot of all-round riding (150
>miles/week). Can I get wheels that can take quite a bit of punishment and
>still be considered race-worthy (i.e. light and strong). Would it make more
>sense to have a decent pair of wheels for general riding and training and
>another set just for racing? I should also mention that I ride in the
>rainy, hilly Pacific NW.
>I suspect that I'm not the only one confused about the benefits of bladed
>spokes, aero-rims, after-market hubs and the like. I've heard the bit about
>"light, cheap, and strong...pick any two". I guess I'll sacrifice the
>"cheap". I've come this far, why be frugal now? Thanks in advance for the
>feedback.
>-matt
>
I'd build a reliable set of wheels first. If you decide to add good
ones later on, then fine. But the only reason to do so would be to get
aero efficiency, and then the only reason to do that is if you race
time trials.
I'd start with factory hubs that are part of the component group
that's on your bike (Shimano or Campy). Then, I'd get Mavic MA-2 rims,
which are non-anodized (good), strong, and reasonably light. They are
also cheap, but that should not diminish their utility. Much of what
makes expensive non-aero rims pricey is anodized, welding, and
machining, all of which significantly degrade the quality of the rim.
Use 1.8-1.6-1.8 swaged spokes, like DT Competitions. Build them with
three crosses, and build them right. 32 spokes per wheel seems a
reasonable compromise, unless you are heavy or ride heavily.
The wheels will be cheap compared to the exotics. But the only thing
an exotic can offer over these wheels is aerodynamic efficiency. The
wheels are eminently raceable, and they are durable enough for
everyday use.
If you do time trials, and you want to get aero efficiency, then look
into a second set of wheels. But unless you are at the top of the
heap, it is very unlikely that the aero drag on the wheels I'm
suggesting will cost you a placing in a real race.
Rick "Reliability is the first priority" Denney
Matt Daniel
NTH" but they are really made by FIR. They are fairly deep rims (they
require the longer stem tubes). The rear rim inexplicably disintegrated
during a very long ride (the last mile of the RAMROD) and was subsequently
replaced via warranty. I weigh 170lbs. I should also confess to the
occasional bunny-hop over storm drains and other obstacles. I should
probably stop that if I want my delicate road stuff to last a season or two.
Regards,
-matt
Mark Atanowicz wrote in message <7cr9ua$kgc$1...@newsgate.sps.mot.com>...
just
>> getting into racing but I also commute and do a lot of all-round riding
(150
>> miles/week). Can I get wheels that can take quite a bit of punishment
and
>> still be considered race-worthy (i.e. light and strong). Would it make
more
>> sense to have a decent pair of wheels for general riding and training and
>> another set just for racing? I should also mention that I ride in the
>> rainy, hilly Pacific NW.
>> I suspect that I'm not the only one confused about the benefits of bladed
>> spokes, aero-rims, after-market hubs and the like. I've heard the bit
about
>> "light, cheap, and strong...pick any two". I guess I'll sacrifice the
>> "cheap". I've come this far, why be frugal now? Thanks in advance for
the
>> feedback.
>
Jobst Brandt
> My current wheels came with my 1998 Bianchi Veloce. They say
> "Reparto Corse NTH" but they are really made by FIR. They are
> fairly deep rims (they require the longer stem tubes). The rear rim
> inexplicably disintegrated during a very long ride (the last mile of
> the RAMROD) and was subsequently replaced via warranty.
I'm curious, what failed in particular? Did the spokes break or did
the rim crack and how?
Jobst Brandt <jbr...@hpl.hp.com>
Matt Daniel
only about 1.5 cm long. I heard the rim hitting the brake pad and a moment
later the rim bulged out and the tire made a sound like a .22 pistol. the
master wrench at REI said it was the most unusual rim failure he had seen.
you would think that maybe I had the tire pressure too high, but it was
pumped to 120 psi at the beginning of the ride (some 10 1/2 hours earlier).
the only other unusual factor was the temperature changes that day. i
started at sea level where it was very warm, and twice went to very cold
temps at higher elevations. I doubt that had any effect, but i thought i'd
mention it to be complete in my account.
thanks for your interest.
Jobst Brandt wrote in message <7cu0oi$10l$4...@hplms2.hpl.hp.com>...
Jobst Brandt
> My current wheels came with my 1998 Bianchi Veloce. They say
> "Reparto Corse NTH" but they are really made by FIR. They are
> fairly deep rims (they require the longer stem tubes). The rear rim
> inexplicably disintegrated during a very long ride (the last mile of
> the RAMROD) and was subsequently replaced via warranty. I weigh
> 170lbs.
> The rim cracked right where the metal bead of the tire rests. the
> split was only about 1.5 cm long. I heard the rim hitting the brake
> pad and a moment later the rim bulged out and the tire made a sound
> like a .22 pistol. the master wrench at REI said it was the most
> unusual rim failure he had seen. you would think that maybe I had
> the tire pressure too high, but it was pumped to 120 psi at the
> beginning of the ride (some 10 1/2 hours earlier).
I'm not familiar with that rim but it sounds like a fatigue crack from
hard anodizing. Are these rims dark anodized? Anodized rims have on
occasion split around the entire circumference into the hollow cross
section so that the spokes were in the hoop of the rim bed and the
tire was on the outer part that rattled about intermeshed with the
inner hoop. Most such failures didn't turn out so benign, usually
splitting off one side wall with a bank, such as yours. Stay away
from anodized rims.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From the FAQ:
Subject: 8.18 Anodized vs. Non-anodized Rims
From: Jobst Brandt <jbr...@hpl.hp.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 15:31:32 PDT
Dark anodized rims were introduced a few years ago as a fashionable
alternative to shiny metal finish, possibly as a response to non
metallic composites. Some of these rims were touted as HARD anodized
implying greater strength. Hard anodizing of aluminum, in contrast to
cosmetic anodizing, produces a porous ceramic oxide that forms in the
surface of the metal, as much as 1/1000 inch thick, about half below
the original surface and half above. It is not thick enough to affect
the strength of the rim but because it is so rigid, acts like a thin
coat of paint on a rubber band. The paint will crack as the rubber
stretches before any load is carried by the rubber. Similarly,
anodizing cracks before the aluminum carries any significant load.
Rims are made from long straight extrusions that are rolled into
helical hoops from which they are cut to length. Rims are often
drilled and anodized before being rolled into a hoop and therefore,
the anodizing is already crazed when the rim is made. Micro-cracks in
thick (hard) anodizing can propagate into the metal as a wheel is
loaded with every revolution to cause whole sections of the rim to
break out at its spoke sockets. In some rims, whole sidewalls have
separated through the hollow chamber so that the spokes remained
attached to the inner hoop and the tire on the outer one. In
contrast, colored anodizing is generally too thin to initiate cracks.
As an example, Mavic MA-2 rims have rarely cracked except on tandems,
while the identical MA-40 rims, with a relativley thin anodizing, have
cracked often.
Anodizing is also a thermal and electrical insulator. Because heat is
generated in the brake pads and not the rim, braking energy must flow
into the rim to be dissipated to the atmosphere. Anodizing, although
relatively thin, impedes this heat transfer and reduces braking
efficiency by raising the surface temperature of the brakes. When
braking in wet conditions, road grit wears off anodizing on the
sidewall, an effect that improves braking.
Anodizing is not heat treatment and has no effect on the structural
properties of the aluminum.
------------------------------
Jobst Brandt <jbr...@hpl.hp.com>
Eric Salathe
> the rim cracked right where the metal bead of the tire rests. the split was
> only about 1.5 cm long. I heard the rim hitting the brake pad and a moment
> later the rim bulged out and the tire made a sound like a .22 pistol. the
> master wrench at REI said it was the most unusual rim failure he had seen.
`master wrench'!? Well, it is a clothing store. We live in Seattle, it
rains a lot, and there are mountains to ride in. This adds up to
sidewall failure being a common failure. Fine wet grit on the rims can
take off considerable material in a single hilly ride. This failure has
less to do with anodizing and probably more to do with machining of
sidewalls, which gives the grit a head start. The bulging rim suggests
that the rim was thin over the whole sidewall, not just at a thin crack.
I just saw a fellow's brandy-new Rolf wheels that are completely
hollow-cheeked after one winter of riding.
Eric Salathe
Seattle WA
Jay Beattie
Eric Salathe wrote in message <36F7FC0D...@atmos.washington.edu>...
<snip>
>`master wrench'!? Well, it is a clothing store. We live in Seattle, it
>rains a lot, and there are mountains to ride in. This adds up to
>sidewall failure being a common failure. Fine wet grit on the rims can
>take off considerable material in a single hilly ride. This failure has
>less to do with anodizing and probably more to do with machining of
>sidewalls, which gives the grit a head start. The bulging rim suggests
>that the rim was thin over the whole sidewall, not just at a thin crack.
>I just saw a fellow's brandy-new Rolf wheels that are completely
>hollow-cheeked after one winter of riding.
>
>Eric Salathe
>Seattle WA
I have the same problem here in Portland, recently aggravated by the use of
Shimano brake pads (I'm hunting for a local supply of the salmon (not red, I
say) Kool Stops. Matt, however, did not complain of the usual scoring of the
sidewalls (and resulting concavity) caused by braking in a gritty
environment. In my experience with worn-out rims, the cracks appear where
the rim has been scored. There is nothing mysterious about the crack,
except my failure to detect it earlier. I bet Matt would have seen this
when preparing for the RAMROD -- which was a dry weather event last year,
wasn't it? Sounds like something different happened to him. -- Jay Beattie.
Eric Salathe
rim sidewall failures like Matt Daniel described.
Jay Beattie wrote:
> I have the same problem here in Portland, recently aggravated by the use of
> Shimano brake pads (I'm hunting for a local supply of the salmon (not red, I
> say) Kool Stops. Matt, however, did not complain of the usual scoring of the
> sidewalls (and resulting concavity) caused by braking in a gritty
> environment.
Most people seem not to notice the wear until it is pointed out to them.
Road grit is very fine and can cause the rims to wear very smooth --
it's the same process as making glass lenses. Rear rims tend to wear
more since they get more grit, and most riders use both brakes in the
rain.
> In my experience with worn-out rims, the cracks appear where
> the rim has been scored. There is nothing mysterious about the crack,
> except my failure to detect it earlier. I bet Matt would have seen this
> when preparing for the RAMROD -- which was a dry weather event last year,
> wasn't it? Sounds like something different happened to him.
In fact, it was a very rainy RAMROD last summer with no view of the
mountain, even from Paradise! (RAMROD is a local 150mi 10,000 vertical
foot ride around Mt Rainier.) I presume Matt did a bit of mountainous
training leading up to the ride, and very likely started with already
worn rims that passed their limit about a mile from the finish, just
after the twisting descent down Mud Mountain road. A score in the rim
probably initiated the failure, but the rim needs to be worn thin
already (or is defective as some of the early machined Mavic 217Ts
were), as suggested by the bulge Matt described.
Anyway, it's a good idea to check your rims if you ride a lot in the
rain!
Eric Salathe
Seattle WA
Matt Daniel
of buying an expense ti frame that didn't fit me so well in favor of a much
cheaper steel one that did. Although he's not there anymore, his
credentials include being former mechanic for the US Cyclocross team. He
now sell Sevens under the name Bikefit. Some of the guys in the seattle
store ride a lot and know the equipment they sell. I dislike the Wal-mart
atmosphere of the service dept so I usually go to smaller shops where they
always remember your bike, usually your face, and sometimes your name.
Back to our original topic...the rim looked like the 5 month old rim that it
was in every place except the failure, that was the strange part. I don't
know if the rim is anodized or not as I don't know what that means. The
time has come to order new wheels. For lack of better knowledge, I'm going
with Mavic Open-Pro's built on '99 Campy Record hubs with whatever spokes
and
pattern the wheel builder sees fit. Better ideas? Please speak up.
Eric Salathe wrote in message <36F7FC0D...@atmos.washington.edu>...
>Matt Daniel wrote:
>> the rim cracked right where the metal bead of the tire rests. the split
was
>> only about 1.5 cm long. I heard the rim hitting the brake pad and a
moment
>> later the rim bulged out and the tire made a sound like a .22 pistol.
the
>> master wrench at REI said it was the most unusual rim failure he had
seen.
>
Chris Phillipo
> REI may be a clothing store but the mechanic was good enough to talk me out
> of buying an expense ti frame that didn't fit me so well in favor of a much
> cheaper steel one that did. Although he's not there anymore, his
> credentials include being former mechanic for the US Cyclocross team. He
> now sell Sevens under the name Bikefit. Some of the guys in the seattle
> store ride a lot and know the equipment they sell. I dislike the Wal-mart
> atmosphere of the service dept so I usually go to smaller shops where they
> always remember your bike, usually your face, and sometimes your name.
Your Wal-Mart has a service department? lol!
--
__________________________________
Please remove "X" from email address to reply.
Eric Salathe
Sorry to rag on REI; sidewall failures are common enough that I was
surprised a local mechanic would think it unusual unless it is very
different from how I imagine it from your description. I'll admit I am
somewhat down on REI since I believe they are cutting out many of the
small local shops that provide superior individualized service (R+E,
Elliott Bay, Bikesmith). Although I don't go so far as to never buy
anything there....
> Back to our original topic...the rim looked like the 5-month-old
> rim that it was in every place except the failure, that was
> the strange part.
Guessing what caused a failure over e-mail is obviously questionable,
but I'm guessing that if you look at your rim, the brake surface is
somewhat concave all the way around. If this is true, then it was worn
thin and it was just a matter of a single deeper score to initiate the
failure. That could very well be how a 5-month-old rim looks. Deciding
when a rim is worn too thin is mostly guesswork since measuring is hard
and you don't know what the proper limit is nor if there are locally
thinner spots.
Open Pros will probably have more material on them than some rims. I use
MA2s which are barely heavier (supposedly by less than manufacturing
tolerance), a little sturdier, and cheap enough to replace often as they
get worn (1/2 price of Open Pros). Another option, since you are talking
Record, is to get equally functional Chorus/OpenPro for your good wheels
and use the money you save for some Mirage/MA2 rain wheels. What about
your original hub?
> I don't know if the rim is anodized or not as I don't know
> what that means.
Anodizing is the dull black finish that many rims have by
converting the surface to aluminum oxide (CD in Mavic-speak). It is
purely cosmetic, adds to the price, and can possibly contribute to
cracking around rim holes. You're better off saving your money and
sticking with regular silver rims.
Glad you finished RAMROD despite the busted wheel! Did you sling the
bike over your shoulder and run across the line?
Good luck!
Eric Salathe
Matt Daniel
open-pros with record hubs. there wasn't much price difference from chorus.
I ordered them built by a local non-REI shop. I think I'm helping all the
local shops stay in business. I got 5 friends to start road biking within
the last year, so I know that helps.
Congats on your RAMROD finish, 8:45 is pretty quick. I didn't run with the
bike across the line, but I sure was glad to finish. It was my first ever
century ride so I really felt great about it. Can't wait to do it again.
Eric Salathe wrote in message <36FA95CF...@atmos.washington.edu>...