2.7: inviting people to channels and other channel stuff
Darren Reed
as follows:
a) as soon as you join a channel, the invite disappears even if
you arent joining the channel you were invited to
b) limit of 1 invite per user
c) you can invite to non-existant channels.
both a & c are going to be fixed so that an invite will only go when you
join the invited channel and you can only invite/be invited to a channel
that exists.
however, the point remains, whether we should have an open list on the
number of channels you can be invited to or a max. list length (most
likely MAXCHANNELSPERUSER). two lists are needed to work this effiecntly,
ne from the channel structure with a list of users invited and one from
the user with a list of channels invited to.
Future of Channels.
-------------------
#-Channels and Numeric Channels are going. bang - they're dead.
# channels were only supposed to be temporary and numeric channels just
introduce more special conditions which the server has to handle. 2.7 will
silently ignore them - they will be created on a 2.7 server but they will
not be passed on. This may change slightly. Also, MODE/KICK/INVITE and
other messages related to these channels will stop at them and be dropped
into the big bit-bucket in the sky unless someone wants all the lovely
errors :) + Channels will become multi-join channels. We will have fun :)
This is fixed too - it will be.
Join/Part
---------
Also, I plan to make "JOIN 0" from a client PART the client from all
joined channels. Why I decided this i dont know, but it seems a good
idea. 2.7 will send out a PART for each channel the user is on, later
versions need only send "JOIN 0" Perhaps "PART *" or some other command
string could do the same ? with multi-join channels, it can often be
desireable to leave them. or, get PART to work on wildcards and leave
all channels that atch the wildcard. This would work in the same way
as "JOIN 0" for 2.7.
well, what of it ? go ahead, full steam ahead ? >:-)
-avalon
Greg Lindahl
>
>well, what of it ? go ahead, full steam ahead ? >:-)
Well, while your incoming email is broken, it's kind of hard to
comment to you about such things ;-)
Also, I think we ought to discuss all major changes like this on
operlist. If anyone would like to sign up, send email to
operlist...@cs.bu.edu.
Markku Savela
># channels were only supposed to be temporary and numeric channels just
>introduce more special conditions which the server has to handle. 2.7 will
I don't see how this can be. A channel name is just a string of
characters. The only thing that the server *currently* need is a way
to know whether a string is a nick or a channel name. This is the only
reason that '+' in front channel name was introduced. Nicknames cannot
start with a digit, thus numeric channels are no problem. There is no
need to remove them.
--
Markku Savela (sav...@tel.vtt.fi), Technical Research Centre of Finland
Telecommunications Laboratory, Otakaari 7 B, SF-02150 ESPOO, Finland
AJ
>-------------------
>
> #-Channels and Numeric Channels are going. bang - they're dead.
># channels were only supposed to be temporary and numeric channels just
>introduce more special conditions which the server has to handle. 2.7 will
>silently ignore them - they will be created on a 2.7 server but they will
>not be passed on. This may change slightly. Also, MODE/KICK/INVITE and
>other messages related to these channels will stop at them and be dropped
>into the big bit-bucket in the sky unless someone wants all the lovely
>errors :) + Channels will become multi-join channels. We will have fun :)
>This is fixed too - it will be.
I don't know about anyone else, but I personally LIKED the numeric channels.
It's sorta like losing an old friend. *sigh* wait wait...I can remember
the time when there were ONLY numeric channels.....heck, then again, I can
also remember the time when the number of irc servers was in single digits...
ah....the good old days....when IRC was fun and easy and there weren't
any of these silly op-fights. *sigh* I guess the good things never last.
a bummed old-timer...
-aj
Carl von Loesch
>Also, I think we ought to discuss all major changes like this on
>operlist. If anyone would like to sign up, send email to
>operlist...@cs.bu.edu.
Two bad things about operlist:
a) I get operlist via Usenet, but the gateway for follow-ups is broken,
so each follow-up must be redirected as mail to operlist ... *arghl*
It's not your fault, and I've sent to the guy - but nothing happens.
Maybe they've even removed it now, since I don't see anything happening
on operlist here.
b) I have sent request for joining operlist - No answer - No articles.
*sigh*
--
o+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+o
o| Carlo 'lynx' v. Loesch = loe...@informatik.uni-oldenburg.de |o
o| o=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=o | ly...@dm.unirm1.it |o
o| ;^) | 244661 at DOLUNI1 (.bitnet) |o
`^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~'
HELLO! I'm a .signature virus! Join in and copy me into yours!
Captain Pureheart
>
>both a & c are going to be fixed so that an invite will only go when you
>join the invited channel and you can only invite/be invited to a channel
>that exists.
Why is this a Good Thing? One might want to invite a person to a
channel, and then join them there. Or, one might wish to invite a
person to a channel that currently exists, but one is not on right
now, and again, join them there later.
Both seems legitimate uses of invite.
Gwydion.
Jarkko Oikarinen
> as follows:
> a) as soon as you join a channel, the invite disappears even if
> you arent joining the channel you were invited to
> b) limit of 1 invite per user
> c) you can invite to non-existant channels.
I agree that a and b might be good to fix. But DO NOT CHANGE c.
It was made that way on purpose. The purpose is that if BAG features
someday start getting added to IRC, then they do not work if you
'fix' c. Someday I want to be able to do /invite foo mych...@rieska.oulu.fi
(or similar) In fact that is currently already possible with user-local
servers, just that clients don't support it and users don't use it. But
it definitely is a very good thing to have on server.
--Jarkko
Jarkko Oikarinen
gl...@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl) writes:
>Also, I think we ought to discuss all major changes like this on
>operlist. If anyone would like to sign up, send email to
>operlist...@cs.bu.edu.
Why not discuss major changes on alt.irc, after all we have a newsgroup
and everyone can easily read messages here ?
--Jarkko
Greg Lindahl
>Why not discuss major changes on alt.irc, after all we have a newsgroup
>and everyone can easily read messages here ?
Because everyone cannot easily read messages here, and no one is
running a news-mail gateway for this group (that I know of).
Real life? Ha!
For that matter, why not pipe operlist into alt.irc, so those with
access to the newsgroup can read those messages without having to
sign up for yet another mailing list (espcially one which has had some
trouble adding new subscribers in the past)?
--
Sam Hill Cabal, DS tsda...@mailbox.syr.edu
"It don't matter, Sail, ... Could be worse. The fam'ly might be donatin' the
proceeds to the Cath'lic Church, or the Mormons or somethin'. One cult's the
same as another." -- Lula Pace Ripley, in "Consuelo's Kiss".
Greg Lindahl
>For that matter, why not pipe operlist into alt.irc, so those with
>access to the newsgroup can read those messages without having to
>sign up for yet another mailing list (espcially one which has had some
>trouble adding new subscribers in the past)?
Because that's only a one-way gateway, and those who don't get this
newsgroup won't see most of what goes on.
Helen Trillian Rose
Greg> == Greg Lindahl <gl...@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU>
Greg> In article <1991Nov8.2...@rodan.acs.syr.edu> tsda...@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Real life? Ha!) writes:
>For that matter, why not pipe operlist into alt.irc, so those with
>access to the newsgroup can read those messages without having to
>sign up for yet another mailing list (espcially one which has had some
>trouble adding new subscribers in the past)?
Greg> Because that's only a one-way gateway, and those who don't get
Greg> this newsgroup won't see most of what goes on.
I'll say this once, I'll say it again. oper...@cs.bu.edu isn't going to
be gating mail-to-news *From BU* anytime soon. I know several places
that have local mail-to-news redists but only for the local system
(Caltech, EFF, etc).
If you want to set up mail-to-news do it locally. If you can't do it
because you don't have the privs, talk to your system/news
administrator. If s/he won't do it or can't do it, then compile
something like Stephen R. van den Berg's "procmail" program, that will
send all of operlist to a seperate file, and inform people who want it
by putting it in the server's MOTD or somesuch.
As it is, I hope to move operlist from BU in a month or so anyways (I'll
make it everyone's Christmas present to stop getting all those bounces)
and I *intend* to take an opinion poll about mail-to-news gateway
(global) at that time.
--Helen
--
Helen Trillian Rose irc operators mailing list
Electronic Frontier Foundation operlist...@cs.bu.edu
Systems and Networks Administration Flames to:
<hr...@eff.org, hr...@cs.bu.edu> women-not-to-...@eff.org
Ofer Inbar
Because in most cases, mail is much more reliable than news. For
example, if I am swamped with work for a few days, alt.irc's 4-day
expire here at Brandeis will kick in, and I'll miss out on messages.
Email doesn't expire before you have a chance to read it. Also,
problems with news can cause some articles to never get here at all;
if something like that happens with email, it would cause a bounce on
almost every occasion, so someone will notice the problem. With news,
articles vanish and nobody knows better. And finally, I'm not so sure
that every site that has IRC also has news. But I'm pretty confident
that they all have email.
-- Cos (Ofer Inbar) -- c...@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu
-- WBRS (BRiS) -- WB...@binah.cc.brandeis.edu WB...@brandeis.bitnet
IRC is fun. It's easy to ignore bickering operators.
Iain D. Sinclair
> >Also, I think we ought to discuss all major changes like this on
> >operlist. If anyone would like to sign up, send email to
> >operlist...@cs.bu.edu.
j...@rieska.oulu.fi (Jarkko Oikarinen) writes:
>Why not discuss major changes on alt.irc, after all we have a newsgroup
>and everyone can easily read messages here ?
The only real thing 'for' mailing lists is that what they discuss
is HIDDEN from non-subscribers. (I don't think anyone at a .com site
is too worried about missing out on alt.irc.)
If everyone had server-limited /kill, and the /admins had to be as
qualified as news, email, ftp, etc. administrators, we wouldn't NEED
opers or an "operlist".
--
Iain Sinclair __ +61 2 2812552 (faq)
axo...@socs.uts.edu.au +61 2 3301807 (fax)
Markku Savela
>The only real thing 'for' mailing lists is that what they discuss
>is HIDDEN from non-subscribers. (I don't think anyone at a .com site
But, as far as I know, there are no restrictions in joining the
"operlist". Anyone can join, it's not hidden or closed. The name
"operlist" is just a relic from the old days.
--msa
Helen Trillian Rose
msa> == Markku Savela <Markku...@tel.vtt.fi>
msa> In article <axolotl.689842846@syzygy> axo...@socs.uts.edu.au (Iain D. Sinclair) writes:
>The only real thing 'for' mailing lists is that what they discuss
>is HIDDEN from non-subscribers. (I don't think anyone at a .com site
msa> But, as far as I know, there are no restrictions in joining the
msa> "operlist". Anyone can join, it's not hidden or closed. The name
msa> "operlist" is just a relic from the old days.
100% true. I don't prohibit *anyone* from joining. Sometimes I'm a
little slow in responding because mail swamps me out, but that doesn't
mean I've blown you off, I'm just busy!
But I'm sure we *all* know how that is. :-\
Iain D. Sinclair
> But, as far as I know, there are no restrictions in joining the
> "operlist". Anyone can join, it's not hidden or closed. The name
> "operlist" is just a relic from the old days.
I wasn't specifically referring to operlist. I was begging the question,
"why have a mailing list"? IMO, mailing lists are a pain in the arse. If
they are used at all (assuming you want a non-selective audience),
it should be in the form of a news <> mail gateway for the very few who
miss out.
Jarkko Oikarinen
> Because everyone cannot easily read messages here, and no one is
> running a news-mail gateway for this group (that I know of).
So why not do that gateway then ?
Aren't there lots of newsgroups forwarded into mailing lists,
so the scripts should exist somewhere already installed ?
They do not exist here.
--Jarkko
Greg Lindahl
>So why not do that gateway then ?
>Aren't there lots of newsgroups forwarded into mailing lists,
>so the scripts should exist somewhere already installed ?
>They do not exist here.
I am not opposed to a gateway; I'm just saying that there isn't one.
Christopher Davis
JTO> == Jarkko Oikarinen <j...@rieska.oulu.fi>
JTO> So why not do that [news/mail] gateway then ?
Sounds good. We'd like to thank you for your kind offer to donate a
more powerful machine for us to run it on. A SPARCstation ELC
(diskfull) would do nicely.
--Chris
--
Christopher Davis <c...@eff.org> | WEIRD QUOTES OF THE WEEK:
System Manager & Postmaster | "Carpe grepem."
Electronic Frontier Foundation | "Seize the WAIS?"
+1 617 864 0665 NIC: [CKD1] | -- two overworked technodweebs
Jarkko Oikarinen
j...@rieska.oulu.fi (Jarkko Oikarinen) writes:
> gl...@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl) writes:
> >Also, I think we ought to discuss all major changes like this on
> >operlist. If anyone would like to sign up, send email to
> >operlist...@cs.bu.edu.
>Why not discuss major changes on alt.irc, after all we have a newsgroup
>and everyone can easily read messages here ?
Because in most cases, mail is much more reliable than news. For
example, if I am swamped with work for a few days, alt.irc's 4-day
expire here at Brandeis will kick in, and I'll miss out on messages.
Email doesn't expire before you have a chance to read it. Also,
Why aren't all newsgroups then distributed as mail because mail is
so much better ? Sounds pretty stupid excuse. Or should news
be meant only for things which are not important ? Like alt.sex.pictures ?
(Oh well, to many people that's important.. ;-)
Are all newsgroups just meant for nonimportant matters ?
Operlist was meant to be for discussion about irc links. Irc links
may be such an important thing where some things have to be known immediately.
But not discussion about irc protocols and new features. And news
is much better than mail. When using mail it comes to my mailbox
with my personal mails. I don't want it there. It obviously belongs
to newsgroup. Where I can read irc things when I want to. Of course
I could set up a personal newsgroup system to automatically
separate operlist mails into a different mailbox and then I would
have *two* different ways to read news when I could manage with one.
Very smart indeed...
problems with news can cause some articles to never get here at all;
if something like that happens with email, it would cause a bounce on
almost every occasion, so someone will notice the problem. With news,
What I have heard about operlist mail, they tend to go into black
hole quite often. Don't know for sure if that's true...
articles vanish and nobody knows better. And finally, I'm not so sure
that every site that has IRC also has news. But I'm pretty confident
that they all have email.
In fact this is wrong assumption. There are places where people
can read news, but cannot read internet mail. They cannot reply
to those news, but they can at least read them.
Anyways. If somebody wants to read irc discussion as mail, let
him/her set up a gateway to do that. So everyone gets the discussion
the way the preferred way. But to me newsgroup seems very definitely
to be the way to discuss irc protocols and new features.
I'm not asking operlist to be relayed to alt.irc. Operlist
is for discussion about irc *links*. Which can be handled in
a mailing list because users are not so likely to be interested
in those. But users are much more likely to be interested in
protocol changes and new features. So the question is not:
'Should operlist be relayed into alt.irc ?'
but
'Should we discuss irc improvements and new features in alt.irc ?'
And the question should be asked here, not in operlist.
If the answer to the question is 'no' then what the heck is this
newsgroup for anyways ? A dating service for horny undergrads ?
I guess not.. that's what irc is for ..
--Jarkko
Jarkko Oikarinen
Sounds good. We'd like to thank you for your kind offer to donate a
more powerful machine for us to run it on. A SPARCstation ELC
(diskfull) would do nicely.
Don't be ridiculous. If you're so damn poor, why are you running
operlist at all ? I'm sure many people would have better machines
to run it on. I do. But I'm not interested in how servers in US
link to each other. I'm interested in irc protocols discussions.
Why does it happen through your slow, heavily loaded lousy machines,
when certainly there are machines better suited for that around ?
If you can point me a place where to get that gateway (which isn't
damn hard to install), I will install it here. But I'm not going
to gateway operlist to alt.irc because that doesn't serve any purpose.
But I can install a gateway where people can join and read alt.irc
messages and discussions about irc protocols. I guess now you tell me
to do that software myself because you cannot afford to do it because
you have so slooooow machines.
I just somehow had this idea (which you apparently think as very stupid
and impossible) that there are such gateways (for other newsgroups)
already running on some machines and it would be easier to install
a new one to a place where there are old ones. I guess that's impossible.
Must be totally ridiculous. Of course all irc gateways *must* absolutely
have their own Sun SPARC running in Boston, the center of the world.
--Jarkko
Christopher Davis
JTO> == Jarkko Oikarinen <j...@rieska.oulu.fi>
JTO> Don't be ridiculous. If you're so damn poor, why are you running
JTO> operlist at all ? I'm sure many people would have better machines
JTO> to run it on. I do. But I'm not interested in how servers in US
JTO> link to each other. I'm interested in irc protocols discussions.
JTO> Why does it happen through your slow, heavily loaded lousy
JTO> machines, when certainly there are machines better suited for that
JTO> around ?
Operlist is currently being run on machine time donated by Boston
University's Computer Science department, *not* any of EFF's machines.
If you're interested in IRC protocol discussions, why don't you start a
mailing list on one of your wonderful machines? You could call it
"irclist" or something, even.
JTO> If you can point me a place where to get that gateway (which isn't
JTO> damn hard to install), I will install it here. But I'm not going
JTO> to gateway operlist to alt.irc because that doesn't serve any purpose.
JTO> But I can install a gateway where people can join and read alt.irc
JTO> messages and discussions about irc protocols. I guess now you tell me
JTO> to do that software myself because you cannot afford to do it because
JTO> you have so slooooow machines.
I don't see a reason to gateway protocol design discussions into a
general distribution newsgroup. alt.irc seems to be a general IRC users
discussion area, but that does not make it a good implementor's
workshop.
If you want to find the software to do a gateway, I'm sure you've heard
of 'archie' and the 'comp.archives' newsgroup WAIS server.
JTO> I just somehow had this idea (which you apparently think as very
JTO> stupid and impossible) that there are such gateways (for other
JTO> newsgroups) already running on some machines and it would be
JTO> easier to install a new one to a place where there are old ones. I
JTO> guess that's impossible. Must be totally ridiculous. Of course
JTO> all irc gateways *must* absolutely have their own Sun SPARC
JTO> running in Boston, the center of the world.
There are news-to-mail gateways running on eff.org. They happen to be
in use for things more closely related to EFF's purposes than the
gatewaying of "what is IRC" messages to a mailing list of people
interested in implementing better protocols.
When we get new machines, and are better able to spare the resources, we
will probably implement multiple lists to replace or supplant operlist.
We may *also* make a mailing list for those interested in reading
alt.irc by mail, but it will be focused for users, not implementors.
Put your bytes where your bombast is. If you want a mailing list for
implementors, start the damned thing already. Don't whine about how
we're not doing it for you. You gave up on irclist once, and now you're
complaining there isn't an irclist.
Bill Wisner
>Don't be ridiculous. If you're so damn poor, why are you running
>operlist at all ? I'm sure many people would have better machines
>to run it on. I do. But I'm not interested in how servers in US
>link to each other. I'm interested in irc protocols discussions.
>Why does it happen through your slow, heavily loaded lousy machines,
>when certainly there are machines better suited for that around ?
Stop bitching about Chris's slow machine, then, and run a mailing list
to discuss IRC protocols.
Oh, wait a minute. You did run one, then you stopped. Guess you're not
that interested after all. Never mind.
Bill Wisner <wis...@alaska.edu> Gryphon Gang Fairbanks AK 99775
W is for Winie, embedded in ice
The Long Haired One
Why not discuss major changes on alt.irc, after all we have a newsgroup
and everyone can easily read messages here ?
--Jarkko
WiZ, some of us have slow news feeds. Like I've gotten message 2 weeks
after they've been posted. This is stuff posted from systems 10ms away.
Boston U <-> MIT.
-Rocker