PROP: alt.comp.freeware
novmondo
+-------------------------------+----------------------------+
| novm...@sky.net | [WWW/TTT] |
|Kien ajn vi iras, tie vi estas.|http://www.sky.net/~novmondo|
+-------------------------------+----------------------------+
Richard G. Harper
> I propose the creation of the group alt.comp.freeware.
Why? What justifies the creation of the newsgroup? Where is freeware being
discussed currently?
-----
* Richard G. Harper Internet rgha...@mail.msen.com CompuServe 76670,110 *
* Association of Shareware Professionals - EMail the above addresses, or *
* visit our home page - http://www.asp-shareware.org/ *
* I am the Lorax. I speak for the trees. *
************** But I speak NOT for anyone else, if you please ***************
Judge
Harper) wrote:
>> I propose the creation of the group alt.comp.freeware.
>
>Why? What justifies the creation of the newsgroup? Where is freeware being
>discussed currently?
>
I think that was his point. Freeware isn't being discussed ANYWHERE
because there is no news group for it. I personally would be
interested in one as well because I don't always have the money to buy
every single program I like. There are a LOT of pretty decent
Freeware programs out there (NetScape, Free Agent, mIRC, etc...) that
I might not have found out about had I not accidentally run into them
on web pages. If we had a freeware newsgroup, people could turn to
the newsgroup to pass on good links, programs that are available, etc.
novmondo
>In article <4b7abb$3...@alpha.sky.net>, novm...@sky.net (novmondo) wrote:
>> I propose the creation of the group alt.comp.freeware.
>Why? What justifies the creation of the newsgroup? Where is freeware being
>discussed currently?
People are constantly searching for freeware; they often bring it up in
general software/shareware areas where its mention possibly inappropriate, but
they have nowhere else to make inquiries/share information with others. Many
time these inquiries result in negative responses to the questioners, being
that someone else has judged that it is not the appropriate forum. Hence, it
would be nice if there was the appropriate forum. A great many people on the
Net use and seek out freeware.
I hope that your associations with shareware (your sig) aren't prompting you
to attempt to squelch the formation of such a forum. ;-)
Chris Marriott
>I propose the creation of the group alt.comp.freeware.
Why? What makes you feel that there is a need for such a group?
Chris
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Marriott, Warrington, UK | Author of SkyMap v3 award-winning
ch...@chrism.demon.co.uk | shareware Win31/Win95 planetarium.
For full info, see http://www.execpc.com/~skymap
Author member of Association of Shareware Professionals (ASP)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ken Alper
> On 19 Dec 1995 20:36:37 -0500, rgha...@mail.msen.com (Richard G.
> Harper) wrote:
>
> >> I propose the creation of the group alt.comp.freeware.
> >
> >Why? What justifies the creation of the newsgroup? Where is freeware being
> >discussed currently?
> >
>
> I think that was his point. Freeware isn't being discussed ANYWHERE
> because there is no news group for it. I personally would be
> interested in one as well because I don't always have the money to buy
> every single program I like. There are a LOT of pretty decent
> Freeware programs out there (NetScape, Free Agent, mIRC, etc...) that
> I might not have found out about had I not accidentally run into them
> on web pages. If we had a freeware newsgroup, people could turn to
> the newsgroup to pass on good links, programs that are available, etc.
What?
Have you bothered looking in the comp.sys hierarchy?
comp.sys.mac.advocacy, comp.sys.mac.announce, comp.sys.mac.apps,
comp.sys.mac.comm, comp.sys.mac.databases, comp.sys.mac.digest,
comp.sys.mac.games.action, comp.sys.mac.games.adventure,
comp.sys.mac.games.announce, comp.sys.mac.games.flight-sim,
comp.sys.mac.games.marketplace, comp.sys.mac.games.misc,
comp.sys.mac.games.strategic, comp.sys.mac.graphics,
comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc, comp.sys.mac.hardware.storage,
comp.sys.mac.hardware.video, comp.sys.mac.hypercard, comp.sys.mac.misc
comp.sys.ibm.pc.demos, comp.sys.ibm.pc.digest,
comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action, comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.adventure,
comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.announce, comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.flight-sim,
comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.marketplace, comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.misc,
comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg, comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.cd-rom, comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.comm, comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc,
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.networking, comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.systems, comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.video,
comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc, comp.sys.ibm.pc.rt,
comp.sys.ibm.pc.soundcard.advocacy, comp.sys.ibm.pc.soundcard.games,
comp.sys.ibm.pc.soundcard.misc, comp.sys.ibm.pc.soundcard.music,
comp.sys.ibm.pc.soundcard.tech
And that's just the mac and pc subhierarchies.
--Ken
----------------------------------------<*>--------------------------------
Ken Alper: MacGeek. Big-time fan: GH, Simpsons, AbFab, X-Files, FM 106.3,
B-5, old MST3K, KITH, SGC2C, DM, PSB, acronyms, The Chills, Macintosh Way,
& Kevin Bacon game. Akbar & Jeff's Web-O-Matic: http://web.syr.edu/~ksalper
"Interstellar copyright doesn't mean shit when you're dealing with silicon."
__Tyrena Wingreen-Feif, _Hyperion_
Rob Bellville
I feel that it would be very useful to have a freeware newsgroup.
Especially since it can be difficult to find it. I also agree that it
would help create dialog in that subject area.
-- Rob
..........................................................
Rob Bellville, N1NTE PO Box 515
bell...@ultranet.com Millbury, MA 01527
..........................................................
http://www.ultranet.com/~bellvill/
..........................................................
Richard G. Harper
> On 19 Dec 1995 20:36:37 -0500, rgha...@mail.msen.com (Richard G.
>
> >> I propose the creation of the group alt.comp.freeware.
> >
> >discussed currently?
> >
>
> I think that was his point. Freeware isn't being discussed ANYWHERE
> because there is no news group for it. I personally would be
> interested in one as well because I don't always have the money to buy
> every single program I like. There are a LOT of pretty decent
> Freeware programs out there (NetScape, Free Agent, mIRC, etc...) that
> I might not have found out about had I not accidentally run into them
> on web pages. If we had a freeware newsgroup, people could turn to
> the newsgroup to pass on good links, programs that are available, etc.
Hmmm ... sounds to me like a proposal for those too lazy to wander over
to comp.infosystems.www.* or comp.binaries.ibm.pc.wanted ... :-)
There are a number of specialized computer, software, operating system and
"I need..." newsgroups that fill this need already.
Timo Salmi
Chris Marriott <ch...@chrism.demon.co.uk> wrote:
:In article <4b7abb$3...@alpha.sky.net> novm...@sky.net "novmondo" writes:
:>I propose the creation of the group alt.comp.freeware.
:Why? What makes you feel that there is a need for such a group?
Whether or not it makes sense, the suggestion is too minimal. The
suggestion is anonymous and gives no background or reasons. More on
that in
86949 Oct 24 12:00 ftp://garbo.uwasa.fi/pc/doc-net/usenews.zip
usenews.zip Usenet Netiquette, creating new newsgroups, etc advice
As for freeware discussions. I have nothing against it, on the
contrary. But as an archive site moderator I have come to note (also
my omission) that you seldom if ever know from the file lists alone
what is shareware and what freeware. The problem often lies in the
simple fact that contrary to shareware there is little incentive for
the authors to actively promote and support freeware.
Now what does what is say have to do in shareware newgroup? A lot.
The issue is related because of the distribution mechanism for
shareware and freeware are similar. In fact in many cases identical.
Besides many shareware programs are free for private users but need
payment for instritutional users. Programs such as Netscape and
Skulason's execllent virus scanner F-PROT.
All the best, Timo
....................................................................
Prof. Timo Salmi Co-moderator of news:comp.archives.msdos.announce
Moderating at ftp:// & http://garbo.uwasa.fi archives 193.166.120.5
Department of Accounting and Business Finance ; University of Vaasa
t...@uwasa.fi http://uwasa.fi/~ts BBS 961-3170972; FIN-65101, Finland
Cappella
>
>I propose the creation of the group alt.comp.freeware.
I second this proposal.
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Giorgio Plazzotta
>I propose the creation of the group alt.comp.freeware.
>+-------------------------------+----------------------------+
>| novm...@sky.net | [WWW/TTT] |
>|Kien ajn vi iras, tie vi estas.|http://www.sky.net/~novmondo|
>+-------------------------------+----------------------------+
I agree with you and support this new group.
Judge
Harper) wrote:
>In article <4b9s7m$9...@nimitz.fibr.net>, Judge wrote:
>> On 19 Dec 1995 20:36:37 -0500, rgha...@mail.msen.com (Richard G.
>> Harper) wrote:
>>
>> >> I propose the creation of the group alt.comp.freeware.
>> >
>> >Why? What justifies the creation of the newsgroup? Where is freeware being
>> >discussed currently?
>> >
>>
>> I think that was his point. Freeware isn't being discussed ANYWHERE
>> because there is no news group for it. I personally would be
>> interested in one as well because I don't always have the money to buy
>> every single program I like. There are a LOT of pretty decent
>> Freeware programs out there (NetScape, Free Agent, mIRC, etc...) that
>> I might not have found out about had I not accidentally run into them
>> on web pages. If we had a freeware newsgroup, people could turn to
>> the newsgroup to pass on good links, programs that are available, etc.
>
>Hmmm ... sounds to me like a proposal for those too lazy to wander over
>to comp.infosystems.www.* or comp.binaries.ibm.pc.wanted ... :-)
>
Well, hell, if you're going to use that argument, why have a separate
alt.comp.shareware? Let's just add this newsgroup in with those two
that you mentioned. I didn't know that comp.infosystems.www contained
freeware: the www at the end might mean strictly web products/info to
some people. And comp.binaries.ibm.pc.wanted would seem to me to be
full of nothing but requests rather than software, as many people are
just too "lazy" to post binaries.
>There are a number of specialized computer, software, operating system and
>"I need..." newsgroups that fill this need already.
I have no problems searching for freeware when I know what I want,
but sometimes you just want to cruise the groups to try to
serendipitously find that wonderful program that makes your life
easier. I noticed you're a member of the ASP. Perhaps it's easy for
you to say a freeware group is not needed b/c you've already got a
separate "shareware" group to turn to. I would think you'd prefer a
separate shareware group if it wasn't yet created rather than search
twelve different groups for that one shareware program you're looking
for.
Why is there such an aversion to creating a new newsgroup? Storage?
Then let's get rid of those groups that are redundant. I mean, do we
really need five different groups for Tanya Harding? (not that I
frequent those, mind you. :-) )
Sorry for the wordiness of this message..... :-)
novmondo
>What?
>Have you bothered looking in the comp.sys hierarchy?
>comp.sys.mac.advocacy, comp.sys.mac.announce, comp.sys.mac.apps,
...etc.
The point of newsgroups is to organize disussions based upon specific topics.
Freeware is a specific topic. If it's being discussed in so many diverse
groups, then that alone justifies the creation of the group. Someone shouldn't
have to go through so many groups, just to discuss a topic of interest to so
many.
Jon Wolf
>ksa...@monmouth.com (Ken Alper) eloquently stated:
>
>
>>What?
>
>>Have you bothered looking in the comp.sys hierarchy?
>
>>comp.sys.mac.advocacy, comp.sys.mac.announce, comp.sys.mac.apps,
>...etc.
>
>The point of newsgroups is to organize disussions based upon specific topics.
>Freeware is a specific topic. If it's being discussed in so many diverse
>groups, then that alone justifies the creation of the group. Someone shouldn't
>have to go through so many groups, just to discuss a topic of interest to so
>many.
Alt.comp.freeware is not specific enough. The way it stands now, there could be
freeware posted for every different computer platform that has freeware written
for it. It should be called alt.comp.NAME OF PLATFORM.freeware. Substitute "NAME
OF PLATFORM" for the platform you want this freeware to run on. Otherwise, foget
this newsgroup.
/| _ (| | |_/_ |\ |\
| | / \_/|/| | | | / \_|/ |/
\|/\_/ | |_/ \/ \/ \_/ |_/|_/
(| |)
novmondo
>Alt.comp.freeware is not specific enough. The way it stands now, there could be
>freeware posted for every different computer platform that has freeware written
>for it.
On the contrary, I don't it's justified enough to clutter the alt.* hierarchy
with freeware groups for all platforms (which would inevitably occur if one
platform got its group)... I think alt.comp.freeware would suffice. It's
better than what we have now - nothing, no centralized area for discussion.
Grace Sylvan
> Alt.comp.freeware is not specific enough. The way it stands now,
> there could be freeware posted for every different computer platform
> that has freeware written for it. It should be called alt.comp.NAME
> OF PLATFORM.freeware. Substitute "NAME OF PLATFORM" for the platform
> you want this freeware to run on. Otherwise, foget this newsgroup.
What is the problem with that? Do you really think that there will be
that much DISCUSSION (it's not a binary group) that it will be
overwhelmed? This group isn't high traffic, I doubt freeware would be,
either. This shareware group isn't just for PC's, you know :-)
--
Tigger (Grace Sylvan) Mom of Katherine Yelena, 6,
tig...@satyr.sylvan.com Robin Gregory, 3.5
Children's Shareware Pages: http://www.sylvan.com/
Christmas software and activities on the KIDS pages
Richard G. Harper
> The point of newsgroups is to organize disussions based upon specific topics.
> Freeware is a specific topic. If it's being discussed in so many diverse
> groups, then that alone justifies the creation of the group. Someone shouldn't
> have to go through so many groups, just to discuss a topic of interest to so
> many.
Yes, but the topic of discussion won't be about FREEWARE, but about specific
FREEWARE PRODUCTS. I doubt that the casual user will be logging in and asking
"Say, what's hot in the freeware market these days?" - but rather, "Does anyone
know of a freeware product that will xxxxx..."
THESE kinds of questions are better handled in the existing hierarchies and
newsgroups. That's the point that you seem to be missing.
If the proposed newsgroup intended to discuss freeware as a concept, or to
address issues of freeware and distribution then it might merit a newsgroup,
but as proposed it's a poorly named "Wanna find this file..." newsgroup.
novmondo
>Yes, but the topic of discussion won't be about FREEWARE, but about specific
>FREEWARE PRODUCTS. I doubt that the casual user will be logging in and asking
>"Say, what's hot in the freeware market these days?" - but rather, "Does anyone
>know of a freeware product that will xxxxx..."
>THESE kinds of questions are better handled in the existing hierarchies and
>newsgroups. That's the point that you seem to be missing.
The point you seeem to be missing is that people frequently get hassled for
making such inquiries ("it's another idiot looking for freeware" "get your own
newsgroup", etc.). With at least 4,000 meaningless, pointless groups on Usenet
like alt.my.girlfriend.is.named.jane.and.i.love.her, I don't see the problem
with a forum for discussion of freeware.
Heagarty
Ken Alper <ksa...@monmouth.com> wrote:
>> On 19 Dec 1995 20:36:37 -0500, rgha...@mail.msen.com (Richard G.
>> Harper) wrote:
>>
>> >> I propose the creation of the group alt.comp.freeware.
>
>Have you bothered looking in the comp.sys hierarchy?
>
>comp.sys.mac.advocacy, comp.sys.mac.announce, comp.sys.mac.apps,
>comp.sys.mac.comm, comp.sys.mac.databases, comp.sys.mac.digest,
>comp.sys.mac.games.action, comp.sys.mac.games.adventure,
>comp.sys.mac.games.announce, comp.sys.mac.games.flight-sim,
>comp.sys.mac.games.marketplace, comp.sys.mac.games.misc,
>comp.sys.mac.games.strategic, comp.sys.mac.graphics,
>comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc, comp.sys.mac.hardware.storage,
>comp.sys.mac.hardware.video, comp.sys.mac.hypercard, comp.sys.mac.misc
>
>comp.sys.ibm.pc.demos, comp.sys.ibm.pc.digest,
>comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action, comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.adventure,
>comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.announce, comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.flight-sim,
>comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.marketplace, comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.misc,
>comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg, comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,
>comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.cd-rom, comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,
>comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.comm, comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc,
>comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.networking, comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,
>comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.systems, comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.video,
>comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc, comp.sys.ibm.pc.rt,
>comp.sys.ibm.pc.soundcard.advocacy, comp.sys.ibm.pc.soundcard.games,
>comp.sys.ibm.pc.soundcard.misc, comp.sys.ibm.pc.soundcard.music,
>comp.sys.ibm.pc.soundcard.tech
>
>And that's just the mac and pc subhierarchies.
>
>--Ken
Dammit, don't dismiss the idea by rolling off all those other groups!
That right there is a PERFECT argument for why there should be a freeware
group. Look at how many potential sites you'd have to hunt through on a
regular basis just to see if there was any Freeware discussion.
Search engines don't always turn up everything reliably, and some people
don't have search engines on their newsreaders. The prospect of having to
root through 10+ groups, each getting 100+ posts a day looking for
mention of freeware is ridiculous.
If you are not interested in the group, fine, but if there is sufficient
demand for one centralized source for Freeware discussion, rather than
your huge index, it should be pursued. I know that my company would benefit
greatly from it.
If someone does organize a group, please let me know. I would offer
the idea of creating two or three groups, and alt.comp.freeware.programmer,
an alt.comp.freeware.announcement, and an alt.comp.freeware.binaries.
Not that this would prevent every long binary post in the wrong
newsgroup, but it might help. The way alt.comp.shareware has deteriorated
is a real tradgedy, while alt.comp.shareware is still quite useful.
Just my 2 cents,
Chris Heagarty
heag...@nando.net
Cerebral Gaming Systems
Jim Davis
>Yes, but the topic of discussion won't be about FREEWARE, but about specific
>FREEWARE PRODUCTS. I doubt that the casual user will be logging in and asking
>"Say, what's hot in the freeware market these days?" - but rather, "Does anyone
>know of a freeware product that will xxxxx..."
>THESE kinds of questions are better handled in the existing hierarchies and
>newsgroups. That's the point that you seem to be missing.
>If the proposed newsgroup intended to discuss freeware as a concept, or to
>address issues of freeware and distribution then it might merit a newsgroup,
>but as proposed it's a poorly named "Wanna find this file..." newsgroup.
So what? Since when does the casual user need to log into a group
with meaningful question be a prerequisite for a newsgroup. Have you
noticed how many groups there are that recieve very little use?
You talk like someone with a vested interest in not directing anyone
toward freeware or public domain. OK, then don't bellyache when
someone doesn't register your software as rapidly as you want. Don't
forget, the concept of distributing shareware was born on the back of
public domain distribution channels.
ju...@txdirect.net
>So what? Since when does the casual user need to log into a group
>with meaningful question be a prerequisite for a newsgroup. Have you
>noticed how many groups there are that recieve very little use?
>
>(Richard G. Harper) talks like someone with a vested interest in not directing anyone
>toward freeware or public domain. OK, then don't bellyache when
>someone doesn't register your software as rapidly as you want. Don't
>forget, the concept of distributing shareware was born on the back of
>public domain distribution channels.
>
>
Thank you! That's what I was debating, but for some reason, a lot of those who read/post in this newsgroup have this
great aversion to creating a new newsgroup. Why is that any skin off their backs? If they're not interested, then they
don't have to frequent the group. Geeeez! Doesn't seem to be much of a dilemma as far as I'm concerned. Anyway, I
agree with you whole-heartedly, and I wanted to say, "why are we still debating? Let's get something started." Since
I'm fairly new to the inner workings of newsgroup servers, how do we go about creating a new one? Is there some
specific administrator we need to talk to or submit a request through? If anyone knows how, please post.
Heagarty
>novm...@sky.net (novmondo) wrote:
>
>Alt.comp.freeware is not specific enough. The way it stands now, there could
> be freeware posted for every different computer platform that has
> freeware written for it. It should be called alt.comp.NAME OF
> PLATFORM.freeware. Substitute "NAME OF PLATFORM" for the platform you
> want this freeware to run on. Otherwise,foget this newsgroup.
>
Yeah, because lord knows a newsgroup with the name Alt.Comp.Freeware just
wouldn't work!
Why, that's just as foolish as someone creating a newsgroup called
Alt.Comp.Shareware.
Without the platform name, its not specific enough, no one will be able
to get any information from it, won't post in it, blah, blah, blah....
Look, I'm willing to bet, that if alt.comp.shareware can exist without
a platform delineation in the title, so could alt.comp.freeware....just
a hunch...
Richard G. Harper
> rgha...@mail.msen.com (Richard G. Harper) eloquently stated:
>
> >FREEWARE PRODUCTS. I doubt that the casual user will be logging in and asking
> >"Say, what's hot in the freeware market these days?" - but rather, "Does anyone
> >know of a freeware product that will xxxxx..."
>
> >THESE kinds of questions are better handled in the existing hierarchies and
> >newsgroups. That's the point that you seem to be missing.
>
> making such inquiries ("it's another idiot looking for freeware" "get your own
> newsgroup", etc.). With at least 4,000 meaningless, pointless groups on Usenet
> like alt.my.girlfriend.is.named.jane.and.i.love.her, I don't see the problem
> with a forum for discussion of freeware.
I'm not missing it - but I fear you are. There are already "WANTED" groups
out there, and I've never heard of anyone getting flamed in them for asking
about freeware programs. Use the existing resources and use them correctly
and you won't get "hassled" - just good answers.
P.S. - You've just violated Newsgroup Debate Rule #2. The presence of other
stupid newsgroups does not justify the creation of yours. :-)
Heagarty
Richard G. Harper <rgha...@mail.msen.com> wrote:
>I'm not missing it - but I fear you are. There are already "WANTED" groups
>out there, and I've never heard of anyone getting flamed in them for asking
>about freeware programs. Use the existing resources and use them correctly
>and you won't get "hassled" - just good answers.
>
>P.S. - You've just violated Newsgroup Debate Rule #2. The presence of other
>stupid newsgroups does not justify the creation of yours. :-)
>
>-----
>* Richard G. Harper Internet rgha...@mail.msen.com CompuServe 76670,110 *
>* Association of Shareware Professionals - EMail the above addresses, or *
Richard,
Can't there be more to a newsgroup for freeware than simply "WANTED" Posts?
It really confuses me that you can be so active in in promoting ASP on
this newsgroup but just dismiss any discussion of a freeware newsgroup.
Our company started out in the shareware business, but found, for our
market, freeware was the way to go. We can send distribute freeware
programs through a wide variety of channels, and with each program
advertise for-purchase expansion or upgrades for customizing the
freeware.
Freeware has its own specific problems and strategies, especially in regards
to marketing, and I believe there would be a great value to a discussion
group for this purpose. Why do you continue to belittle it? Wouldn't it
be better to seperate freeware-specific comments out of the
alt.comp.shareware newsgroup?
Again, I don't see why you are so opposed to this, and to some degree it
offends me because it seems you are saying that "people interested in
freeware don't count". Forgive me if I'm wrong, but that's how it is
coming across.
If any one does organize a freeware newsgroup, or a set of freeware groups,
please do post information about them here, so anyone interested can find
them.
Chris Heagarty
Carl Thomas
I also agree with an earlier post that it would need to be broken into systems,
such as
comp.archives.msdos.freeware
comp.archives.win31.freeware
comp.archives.win95.freeware
comp.archives.os2.freeware
comp.archives.mac.freeware
comp.archives.linux.freeware
To lump all freeware discussions for every operating system together would be
very confusing.
Lastly, to re-iterate my first point, i wouldn't look in the alt. heirarchy for
a discussion on computer software.
Just my $0.02
Carl
Timo Salmi
Heagarty <heag...@bessel.nando.net> wrote:
:In article <YHLumKSU...@mail.msen.com>,:>P.S. - You've just violated Newsgroup Debate Rule #2. The presence of other
:>stupid newsgroups does not justify the creation of yours. :-)
:Can't there be more to a newsgroup for freeware than simply "WANTED" Posts?
:It really confuses me that you can be so active in in promoting ASP on
:this newsgroup but just dismiss any discussion of a freeware newsgroup.
Richard, unfortunately, would appear to be slightly negative in this
issue for some reason. But from another, neutral angle there is one
genuine problem with freeware wanted groups or similar. It is the
fact that in general it is quite easy to say in advance on the net
what is fully commercial ("shelfware") and what not. However,
shareware vs. freeware is quite hopelessly mixed on the net. For
example, I know of *NO* FTP site which would comprehensively list
what is shareware and what is freeware. Or list that at all, for
that matter. As far as I understand, this problem applies fairly
comprehensively to BBSes as well. The only way to find out in actual
practice is look inside the relevant package. This is a fact that
was extensively discussed on comp.archives.msdos.d and its
precedessors a few years ago. There is no way around the fact that
since shareware and freeware have much the same distribution
channels, the two are not easily distinguishable in this sense.
Now please do not get me wrong. If enough users wish to have a
newsgroup on freeware, I do not see why not? Personally I am neither
for or against. As far as I am concerned "the market should decide".
That is why we have the newsgroup creation conventions on Usenet.
More straightforward for the alt newsgroups, more involved for the
comp newsgroups.
novmondo
>...and I've never heard of anyone getting flamed in them for asking
>about freeware programs. Use the existing resources and use them correctly
>and you won't get "hassled" - just good answers.
OH. Well since you've never heard of it, it must never have happened! My
mistake. Sorry. OR... perhaps, you simply haven't noticed it - I take it that
you don't read every post/follow-up on Usenet. Perhaps you've overlooked that
people are sometimes flamed via email, as well.
Regardless, I take it that you are not supportive of the proposal, so why
don't we leave it at that and let some other people get into the discussion?
Richard G. Harper
> You talk like someone with a vested interest in not directing anyone
> toward freeware or public domain. OK, then don't bellyache when
> someone doesn't register your software as rapidly as you want. Don't
> forget, the concept of distributing shareware was born on the back of
> public domain distribution channels.
Gee, let's get personal! :-)
I could care less whether someone uses freeware, public domain or shareware
products. What I _do_ care about is needless duplication, crappy propigation
and poorly conceived newsgroups.
Everyone but two or three people seem to think it's a BAD IDEA. Get the
hint.
-----
* Richard G. Harper Internet rgha...@mail.msen.com CompuServe 76670,110 *
* Association of Shareware Professionals - EMail the above addresses, or *
Judge
>Gee, let's get personal! :-)
>
>I could care less whether someone uses freeware, public domain or shareware
>products. What I _do_ care about is needless duplication, crappy propigation
>and poorly conceived newsgroups.
Apparently you DO care a great deal about whether we use freeware or shareware because ever since the idea of creating a
freeware group was proposed, you have been the most vociferous about your objections. If you disagree, that's fine.
State your objections once and move on. But for the past week, YOURS is the only voice of objection that I've seen, and
you've been more or less trying to "shoot down" the concurrence of all of the supporters of the new newsgroup.
Additionally, you've been spending your time rebutting the comments of those who "disagree" with you. If you are
concerned about "crappy propagation" and "duplication", then trumpet your objections to those wasted newsgroups like
those that just have an extension to them for emphasis (i.e., alt.alien.vampire.flonk + alt.alien.vampire.flonk.flonk +
alt.alien.vampire.flonk.flonk.flonk). All we're asking for here is a few USEFUL newsgroups (separated by platform--or
not, I don't care) for freeware.
>Everyone but two or three people seem to think it's a BAD IDEA. Get the
>hint.
Everyone? Like I said before, yours is the only objection I've seen since the proposal was brought up. Maybe my news
server has failed to obtain the "others", I don't know. But somehow, I doubt that was the case. Two or three people?
There were two or three posts in support just today. I think your numbers are skewed. I would hope YOU would get the
hint that there is great interest in this new newsgroup proposal. Object, but do so without making your daily posts.
I've already started the ball rolling on getting that new newsgroup created (31 Dec was the changeover to my ISP's new
newsgroup handler) once our ISP changes handlers. If it happens, then I will let those who are interested know where
they can find it. I'd be willing to bet that if it IS created, your name will pop up in that newsgroup once in a while
looking for that "special" freeware program you heard about on some web page.
Just MY $.02......well, okay--a couple bucks worth.
Judge
Richard G. Harper
> >Everyone but two or three people seem to think it's a BAD IDEA. Get the
> >hint.
>
> Everyone? Like I said before, yours is the only objection I've seen
> since the proposal was brought up. Maybe my news server has failed to
> obtain the "others", I don't know. But somehow, I doubt that was the case.
Somehow I don't doubt it. I could pull the articles out of my archives, but
why bother? You're still missing my point.
If you want to talk about the CONCEPT OF FREEWARE then this is a decent
newsgroup idea. If you want to create yet another "Where can I find..."
newsgroup then it's a darned dumb idea. Period.
<EOF>
novmondo
>I could care less whether someone uses freeware, public domain or shareware
>products.
Good, then _you_ get the hint and leave the discussion.
>What I _do_ care about is needless duplication, crappy propigation
>and poorly conceived newsgroups.
One man's needless duplication (there _are_ no freeware groups!) is another
man's needful group creation. I don't know what "propigation" is, but I assume
you mean propAgation... unfortunately getting groups formed in the other
hierarchies is slightly less difficult than performing one's own vasectomy. At
least there would be some kind of freeware group in existence, from which
others might then be formed in other hierarchies. "Poorly conceived"
newsgroups... you mean like alt.comp.shareware?!?!
>Everyone but two or three people seem to think it's a BAD IDEA. Get the
>hint.
Get a life.
Timo Salmi
:rgha...@mail.msen.com (Richard G. Harper) eloquently stated:
:>What I _do_ care about is needless duplication, crappy propigation
:>and poorly conceived newsgroups.
:
:One man's needless duplication (there _are_ no freeware groups!) is another
:man's needful group creation.
Could we now try to tackle the problem I brought up, which is not a
subjective personal view but the genuine problem about
distinguishing shareware and freeware on the net. As you'll recall
the dilemma I brought up is that most of the material on the net and
on BBSes must be downloaded (or be explicitly known) by the readers
afore one knows it status. What can happen (not so terrible, but
defeats the original purpose) is that the two genres will probably
overlap in discussions. A further question is that there are many
programs that are freeware for private users, while shareware for
institutional users.
I repeat that I am not against nor being negative. I am just
pointing in advance a tricky problem. I also repeat, let's let the
market decide whether such a newsgroup will be created and live.
What worse could possibly happen than that users would not subscribe
to it? (Extensive crossposting!)
Jim Davis
>Everyone? Like I said before, yours is the only objection I've seen since the proposal was brought up. Maybe my news
>server has failed to obtain the "others", I don't know. But somehow, I doubt that was the case. Two or three people?
>There were two or three posts in support just today. I think your numbers are skewed. I would hope YOU would get the
>hint that there is great interest in this new newsgroup proposal. Object, but do so without making your daily posts.
>I've already started the ball rolling on getting that new newsgroup created (31 Dec was the changeover to my ISP's new
>newsgroup handler) once our ISP changes handlers. If it happens, then I will let those who are interested know where
>they can find it. I'd be willing to bet that if it IS created, your name will pop up in that newsgroup once in a while
>looking for that "special" freeware program you heard about on some web page.
>Just MY $.02......well, okay--a couple bucks worth.
I appreciate the hard work Judge.
>Judge
Hardrock
> In article <ofqumKSU...@mail.msen.com>, rgha...@mail.msen.com says...
> >Everyone but two or three people seem to think it's a BAD IDEA. Get the
> >hint.
Sounds like a very good idea to me.
> other people that would be interested in such a newsgroup, too. May be, this
> newsgroup could be open for binaries, too. People could ask like "Does
> somebody know a program that..." and somebody who has one and doesn't know the
> address to download it can just post it as a binary.
Umm, not a good idea really. Binaries in a non-binary group is against
Usenent convention. Many providers will not carry non-binary groups that
recieve a lot of binaries.
Best thing to do is post pointers to the appropriate binary group where
the program is posted; and there is such a group, i just forget the name.
--
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anon...@anon.twwells.com
On 7 Jan 1996 20:21:53 GMT, bl...@netc.com (Andreas Zollmann) wrote:
>In article <ofqumKSU...@mail.msen.com>, rgha...@mail.msen.com says...
>
>>Everyone but two or three people seem to think it's a BAD IDEA. Get the
>>hint.
>
>I was always looking for a newsgroup about public domain / freeware and I know
>other people that would be interested in such a newsgroup, too. May be, this
>newsgroup could be open for binaries, too. People could ask like "Does
>somebody know a program that..." and somebody who has one and doesn't know the
>address to download it can just post it as a binary.
>
> Andreas
>
Timo Salmi
Matt Beckwith <beck...@jaxnet.com> wrote:
:I agree that we need this group. We have a shareware group, but no
:freeware group.
Oh yes, we do have news:alt.comp.freeware
Contact your newsmaster if you are not getting it.
Federico Berrino
>novm...@sky.net (novmondo) wrote:
>>I propose the creation of the group alt.comp.freeware.
>>
>I feel that it would be very useful to have a freeware newsgroup.
>Especially since it can be difficult to find it. I also agree that it
>would help create dialog in that subject area.
>-- Rob
>..........................................................
> Rob Bellville, N1NTE PO Box 515
> bell...@ultranet.com Millbury, MA 01527
>..........................................................
> http://www.ultranet.com/~bellvill/
>..........................................................
Yes it is a great Idea !!!
fede