Bahai fallacy in their belief of Bible as untampered book
Mr Mahdi
biblical text was never corrupted, but the corruption came from the
interpretation of these texts by men.
Not only secular knowledge (if that is the right term) proved that the Bible is
corrupted, but Islam made it clear that it was corrupted, long before there was
ever an extensive study on the origins of the Bible.
I usually like to show this to Christian apologists and I will use it here.
The Bible claims that Pharoah's magicians actually turned the stick into
snakes. It was believed at that time and as well as during the time of
Muhammad (saaws) that magicians actually could do things like turning sticks
into snakes. However, the Quran makes it clear that the magicians did not turn
the sticks into snakes but use ropes and sticks to make it appear to be a
snake. The Quran made it clear it was a magic trick in a time where people
thought magicians held such powers as to make a stick really turn into a snake.
The Quran then tells us about the miracle of Musa (Moses) turning the stick
into a snake. Musa (as) was able to turn stick into a snake as a result of God
giving him the powers to do so. Magicians are not given such powers by God to
perform such miracles. The Quran seperated myth from reality and told us over
1400 years ago that magicians are not real and use tricks to deceive the eye.
Now the silly bahais believe that both the Bible and Quran are not tampered
with, despite evidence that the Bible has been tampered with extensively.
Bahai apologists are unable to explain and resolve the issue of contradictions
between the Bible and the pure word of God the Holy Quran. Bahais have
suspended thinking and put their trust in blind faith and wishful thinking as a
way to delude themselves that bahaullah was a from God and whatever the bahai
faith teaches is the truth.
May bahais wake up and use their minds and not their emotions to think with.
Once bahais do that, they will realize the falsehood of bahai and will leave
it, like so many bahais have. Even on AOL, 21 bahais since 1998 have left the
bahai faith. This has been discussed on AOL in the message boards and
especially the chat room, where most people who left the bahai faith use to
frequent.
Mahdi Muhammad
Denis Giron
>
> A while back I mentioned how the false prophet bahaullah claimed that the
> biblical text was never corrupted, but the corruption came from the
> interpretation of these texts by men.
If you're claiming otherwise, bring your evidence. Also, define
"corrupted."
> I usually like to show this to Christian apologists and I will
> use it here. The Bible claims that Pharoah's magicians actually
> turned the stick into snakes.
YAWN! Wasn't this dealt with nearly two and a half years ago?
Consider:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=9g7rfk%2477r%241%40samba.rahul.net
[see last five paragraphs]
I guess it is time to re-open the issue.
> It was believed at that time and as well as during the time of
> Muhammad (saaws) that magicians actually could do things like
> turning sticks into snakes. However, the Quran makes it clear
> that the magicians did not turn the sticks into snakes but use
> ropes and sticks to make it appear to be a snake.
Maybe Mahdi can tell us what the Hebrew says? Maybe Mahdi can tell us
how the Jews saw this in their Rabbinic commentaries? Could Mahdi
perhaps quote Rashi, Talmud Bavli, B'reshit Rabbah, or something like
that? The reality is that Mahdi is working only with a translation
(which is an interpretation!), so he is not actually working with
actual text, he is only lobbing a complaint against the interpretation
(which Baha'ullaah said was the root of the corruption).
Even more interesting, Mahdi is only offering a meta-interpretation
(i.e. an interpretation of the translation, which is itself an
interpretation). The fact remains, however, that even when reading the
translation, Mahdi's interpretation is not the most obvious. There
have been Christian commentaries that see it as a mere trick. Consider
what Robert Jamieson wrote in "Commentary Critical and Explanatory on
the Whole Bible" (1871):
"The magicians of Egypt in modern times have been long celebrated
adepts in charming serpents, and particularly by pressing the nape of
the neck, they throw them into a kind of catalepsy, which renders them
stiff and immovable--thus seeming to change them into a rod. They
conceal the serpent about their persons, and by acts of legerdemain
produce it from their dress, stiff and straight as a rod. Just the
same trick was played off by their ancient predecessors, the most
renowned of whom, Jannes and Jambres ( 2Ti 3:8 ), were called in on
this occasion. They had time after the summons to make suitable
preparations--and so it appears they succeeded by their "enchantments"
in practising an illusion on the senses."
[ http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/comm_read/1023996996.html ]
> Magicians are not given such powers by God to
> perform such miracles. The Quran seperated myth
> from reality and told us over 1400 years ago that
> magicians are not real and use tricks to deceive the eye.
And the Jews said similar things before that... of course there are
also Jews and Muslims and Christians who believe evil ones can perform
miracles as well, so who knows! Wont al-Masseehu ad-Dajjaal be able to
raise the dead? Can't God's enemies also perform miracles as part of a
test for the faith of the believers? On either count, your story is
weak.
> Now the silly bahais believe that both the Bible and Quran are not tampered
> with, despite evidence that the Bible has been tampered with extensively.
Where's your evidence? Don't quote a book or a website, rather show us
your evidence.
> Bahai apologists are unable to explain and resolve the issue of contradictions
> between the Bible and the pure word of God the Holy Quran.
"Contradictions" in religious scripture is a matter of interpretation.
Christians see no contradictions between the OT and the NT, while Jews
see many. A religious text is nothing but a bunch of symbols on a
piece of paper. It is the reader who assigns values to these symbols
and strings of symbols.
http://www.geocities.com/freethoughtmecca/philolit.html
> Even on AOL, 21 bahais since 1998 have left the
> bahai faith.
WOW! 21 apostates in four years! YIPEE! Can't wait till Ibn Warraq's
fifth book (on testimonies of apostates from Islam) comes out... I
myself on the net in the last three years have met at least 30
apostates from Islam. Of course, none of this is relevant.
-Denis Giron
Denis Giron
In another post responding to Mahdi, I accidentally gave this URL:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=9g7rfk%2477r%241%40samba.rahul.net
I meant to give this one:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=85ekk7%24s5d%241%40samba.rahul.net
Again, see the last five paragraphs.
Also, since Mahdi wanted to discuss "contradictions" and "corruption,"
I would like to do the same. Also, since Mahdi has repeatedly used
this "Pharoah's Magicians" bit many times, I too will use something I
have used many times in the past.
I want to ask a question which will bring in verses from the Qur'an,
such as al-Hijr 15:32-33 to Sad 38:75-76. The Qur'an gives a very
specific conversation between Allah and Iblees that takes place right
after the creation of Adam. So, according to the Qur'an, when Iblees
refused to prostrate before Adam, did Allah ask:
"ya ibleesu ma laka alla takoona maa alssajideena?"
Or did Allah ask:
"ya ibleesu ma manaaka an tasjuda lima khalaqtu biyadayya astakbarta
am kunta mina alaaleena?"
And according to the Qur'an, what was Iblees' response? Was it:
"lam akun li-asjuda libasharin khalaqtahu min salsalin min hama-in
masnoonin"
Or was it:
"ana khayrun minhu khalaqtanee min narin wakhalaqtahu min teenin"
These are simple questions, but if you don't have an answer, maybe you
should consider:
Denis Giron
A certain polemicist who writes under the nomme-de-web of "Mr. Mahdi"
wrote that the Qur'an can be proven to be from God in light of the way
its depiction of Moses vs Pharaoh compares with the one in the Bible.
Of course there are a number of fallacies present in such a view. The
poor logic aside, a loose draft has been put up on the FTMecca that
explores Mahdi's polemic.
It seems that Mahdi is the one who has not pondered the Qur'an. He is
the one who has failed to thoroughly investigate the relevant texts.
Consider:
http://www.geocities.com/freethoughtmecca/chartumim.html
The article, though loose (it's a 1st draft) still makes a strong case
for the following:
(A) The Qur'an consists of materials borrowed from the
Judeo-Christian folklore (exactly what Mahdi thought
his naive polemic refuted).
(B) The Qur'an is a compilation of variant traditions
from a plurality of sources (i.e. a work of multiple
hands).
Please give me your thoughts!
-Denis Giron
http://www.geocities.com/freethoughtmecca/home.htm
[--- Polemic ---]
mrm...@aol.com (Mr Mahdi) wrote in message news:<20020612222027...@mb-cq.aol.com>...
Mr Mahdi
would do anything to be famous actually tried to come up with a response to my
"Pharaoh's Magicians" argument.
As expected, he never proved that the Quran did borrow from the Bible. It is
logical to point out that if indeed the Quran did borrow from the Bible, it
would of used the popular misconceptions at the time, such as the belief that
magicians can really turn sticks into snakes. But it didn't.
With this recent attempt of Dajjal to get my attention while trying to give me
a dose of my own medicine by using snobbery, thinking that I am not good enough
to debate with him (what a joke!), I will respond to this article in detail,
Insha Allah. I will actually take my sweet time reading his amateurish crap
and give an appropiate reply. But I will do this on Usenet and not post a
rebuttal on my website. He is not worthy of a kilobyte of space on my website.
I am certain this loser is pissed off as to why he can't get Saifullah to post
a rebuttal to Dajjal's stupid nonsense on Islamic Awareness website. We all
know Dajjal will go ego-crazy if someone professional and knowledgable like
Saifullah rebuts his trash on a website like Islamic Awareness.
I haven't spent but a tiny fraction of time posting stuff on the Internet
compared to Dajjal and I am already more famous than he is. With such a
fanatical dedication to be famous via the Internet, Dajjal for some reason
still remains an unknown, maybe except on newsgroups. He is such a loser that
it's almost not funny, LOL.
I don't know why he thinks he can build credibility with long articles full of
superfluous and extraneous display of his "ability" to transliterate foreign
languages (languages he is not fluent in) or quote references left and right.
I can spot a wannabe and a fraud thousands of mile away and he definitely fits
the bill.
Mahdi Muhammad
Freethought110
--
Freethought110
"Mr Mahdi" <mrm...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020627020824...@mb-cq.aol.com...
Freethought110
"Mr Mahdi" <mrm...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020627020824.17193.00001928@mb-
<snip>
> Mahdi Muhammad
>
> http://brothermahdi.tripod.com/index.htm
Brother Mahdi.tripod.com? ROTFLMAO :)))
--
Freethought110
Pat Kohli
Mr Mahdi wrote:
> If this couldn't get any more strange, wannabe "critic" of Islam and loser who
> would do anything to be famous actually tried to come up with a response to my
> "Pharaoh's Magicians" argument.
>
What would be the point of a _serious_ response to anything you post? Most of us
have already been insulted by you. In Denis's case, this would be dozens of times.
>
> (snip) It is
> logical to point out that if indeed the Quran did borrow from the Bible, it
> would of used the popular misconceptions at the time, such as the belief that
> magicians can really turn sticks into snakes.
As Denis pointed out, you offered no quotations, even from the Bible to show the
error you would like to argue. Instead you rely on the recollections of your
readers - which would work if your task was simply to leave us with the prejudices
we came with!
If you had read the Bible, you might have seen it was really not all that clear
that magicians _had_ turned the staffs into snake - there is a lot you can do with
other folks' out-of-context-quotes. The assertion that the Bible proposes that the
magicions staffs really were snakes, gets devoured by the actual text:
"... But Aaron's staff swallowed up their staffs." (Ex 7:12)(NIV)
"... But Aaron's staff swallowed up their staffs." (Ex 7:12)(NASB)
" ...; but Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods." (Ex 7:12)(AMP)
LOOK - some minor translation that would agree w/ Mahdi!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
< "But then Aaron's snake swallowed up their snakes." (Ex 7:12)(NLT) >
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
... and back to the usual phrasing which leads to the sense that these staffs
simply seemed to be snakes:
" ...; but Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods." (Ex 7:12)(KJV)
" ... But Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods." (Ex 7:12)(NKJV)
" ...; but Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods." (Ex 7:12)(KJ21)
" ...; but Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods." (Ex 7:12)(ASV)
"... and the rod of Aaron swalloweth their rods;" (Ex 7:12)(YLT)
"... but Aaron's staff swallowed up their staves." (Ex 7:12)(Darby)
http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=Exodus+7%3A12&NIV_version=yes&language=english&x=11&y=8
Gee, one in ten! I'm pulling for you Mahdi, but it would help if you could at
least lean a little.