titles in post-war Germany
Aaron E. Wright
It does not, however, summarily abolish titles or the
prepositions the old nobility once used; they are just
no longer inherited and have no intrinsic meaning (hah,
tell that to a Freiherr von!). What happens is that
the title or the von is treated simply as part of the
name on the birth certificate; some families don't care,
others want to remind us all of their glorious past (no
matter their current state...). If "von" had been
prohibited, I think it highly unlikely that the German
president would be named Richard von Weizsaecker, hm?
A funny story: the father of an elderly acquaintance of mine
studied in Heidelberg at the turn of the century. His middle
name, his mother's maiden name, was vanZant, which he abbreviated
to V.Z. He was treated with tremendous respect, especially for
an American, until he mentioned that it did not stand for "von und zu"!
Roger Lustig
>A funny story: the father of an elderly acquaintance of mine
>studied in Heidelberg at the turn of the century. His middle
>name, his mother's maiden name, was vanZant, which he abbreviated
>to V.Z. He was treated with tremendous respect, especially for
>an American, until he mentioned that it did not stand for "von und zu"!
Still a German characteristic -- the respect for titles. My father,
moving to Germany, started using his Dr. more frequently; when he REALLY
needs something he hauls out his other doctorate and signs himself Dr.
Dr. Lustig. (This usually when dealing with intransigent types...)
My favorite story of this type: a friend in Chicago teaches piano to
someone who happens to be a German prince. He had to call the man up in
Germany -- on some business other than piano lessons, but this IS
rec.music.classical -- while the guy was attending a conference. "I'd
like to talk to Mr. X," he said to the conference-center employee. Do
you mean Herr Prof. Dr. X?, she replied, full of snootiness. This
pissed off my friend, and so he said: I mean Herr Prof. Dr. Prinz von
und zu X. A gasp on the other end, and the equivalent of "I didn't
know." They ran to get him.
Two weeks later, X confronts my friend: what did you say to those folks
on the phone? Until you called, the service was fine; afterwards,
everyone was afraid to talk to me, and I had to wait for the manager to
come serve me himself whenever I needed anything!
R
Ernest Barreto
that it has nothing to do with names or titles, etc.
My uncle, an American living in Germany, used to have a great
deal of tax problems. He got nowhere with the German
authorities until he started wearing a large medalion of the
star of David with a cross superimposed on it. Apparently, it
really confused a lot of people, and made them uncomfortable,
but no one ever asked about it.
Ernie
eb...@ellis.uchicago.edu
config
>It does not, however, summarily abolish titles or the
>prepositions the old nobility once used; they are just
>no longer inherited and have no intrinsic meaning (hah,
>tell that to a Freiherr von!). What happens is that
>the title or the von is treated simply as part of the
>name on the birth certificate; some families don't care,
>others want to remind us all of their glorious past (no
>matter their current state...). If "von" had been
>prohibited, I think it highly unlikely that the German
>president would be named Richard von Weizsaecker, hm?
>
The Constitution didn't abolish nobility; rather it abolished "monarchy"
which was the system by which ennoblement was perpetuated. Without a
monarch (and his/her court) to manage the nobility "matrix", the names
become nothing more than family titles. Hence the current Duke of Regensburg
(who predecessors were alternmately the Princes of Regensburg and the Kings
of Regensburg) hold title through the tradition of succession alone (1st son
of the 1st son). If he (or any other such princeling) dies without a male
hier to assume the title, the title can go to a female heir but not her
husband (unless specifically permitted by her father's will). Not the same
in the UK, Netherlands, etc where the specific acts of succession dictate.
In democracies, the nobility is an empty concept only supported by the
social strata. My father's maternal grandfather was a nobleman (who never
ever used his title outside of Britain.. and only then to please his dear
Mama). As a result, my Grandfather & Grandmother were afforded a certain
respect and the accompanying perks such as invitations to snooty social
events...which they could not afford as my grandfather was unemployed during
the Great Depression. As a child I was still getting letter addressed to
"Master Robert Morrow, Esquire" which, when I asked my dad why, he said
"Social Snobs".
Anyways, this topic digresses from this discussion group. Let's get
back to music. I've been watching TV5 (ORTF) here in Canada. The
can frequent concerts by Orchestre de la Suisse Romande which are always
a joy given the slim fare on NA TV. What really has been thrilling are the
concerts by "community" orchestras. While our "community" orchestra are
mainly amateur. They have the talent base and the social attitude to
maintain professional orchestra in the small cities.Two remarkable orchestras
which I heard jsut recently were from Alsace and Brittany. Their conductors
are complete unknowns to us (and my European friends tell, over there also).
However, the playing and their interpretation are equal (if not better) than
some of the professional big-city orchestras here in North America.
The topic I'm offering for discussion is "How do they do it?" and haveing
done it, "How do they maintain it?" and finally, "Why the hell can't we
do it here...what the restrains and how do we overcome them?"
BOB
William Alves
I think the biggest factor is rehearsal time. A professional orchestra
(at least in the United States) has a relatively few hours of rehearsal
time before a subscription concert. This is usually fine if the piece
is a Mozart symphony everyone's played before. In this case the conduc-
tor can concentrate on interpretation and polish. However, if the piece
is long, difficult, or a premiere of a modern work, the conductor often
only has time enough to get the right entrances and notes and to keep
everyone together. Sometimes not even that.
Even though the players in a non-professional orchestra are usually not
nearly as good, the conductors have the luxury of sometimes 3 to 10 times
the rehearsal time for a given piece. Maybe the tone and intonation won't
always be up to professional levels, but by that time they've usually got
the notes, the ensemble, confidence, and interpretive nuances that even
the professionals couldn't hope to have. I have known some prominent com-
posers who have preferred recordings of their works by university orches-
tras to recordings by well-known professional orchestras for this very
reason.
On the other hand, a problem I've encountered in community orchestras and
even university orchestras is attendance. If musicians aren't getting paid,
or not getting paid much, the incentive to attend every rehearsal is
considerably diminished, notwithstanding the reprehensible practice of
using substitutes. Also, really good conductors can often communicate many
interpretive nuances through conducting alone, while some amatuer conduc-
tors, even if they have good ideas, may have to stop and tell the players
every time there is a slight change in tempo or balance.
Bill Alves
Robert Krawitz
Symphony Orchestra a couple of years ago. Granted, it was right after a
pair of really nasty ultra-modern works (one world premiere, one Boston
premiere), and everyone was probably really tired, but it was played
completely mechanically (of course, with perfect intonation and all
that). About a year ago, I heard a truly inspired performance by the
MIT Symphony Orchestra (anyone in that group who's reading this, my
compliments). Needless to say, a few minor glitches, but they really
put their heart into it (the concertmaster to such a degree that he
broke a string and the second chair had to replace it on the fly). And
last fall (maybe early this year) when I was visiting my parents, I
heard the Livingston (NJ) Symphony Orchestra play it. Not quite up to
the MITSO overall, but a very "big" performance.
Interestingly enough, only the BSO audience was fooled by the fake
ending -- at the other performances, people knew what was going on.
--
ames >>>>>>>>> | Robert Krawitz <r...@think.com> 245 First St.
bloom-beacon > |think!rlk (postmaster) Cambridge, MA 02142
harvard >>>>>> . Thinking Machines Corp. (617)234-2116
Ernest Barreto
>My LEAST favorite performance of Tchaikovsky's 5th was by the Boston
>Symphony Orchestra a couple of years ago. Granted, it was right after a
>pair of really nasty ultra-modern works (one world premiere, one Boston
>premiere), and everyone was probably really tired, but it was played
>completely mechanically (of course, with perfect intonation and all
>that).
I saw Paul Tortelier (sp?) conduct this piece, and it was terrible.
He took the first movement at something like quarter note = 120,
believe it or not. But then he went on to play some wonderful
cello stuff.
Ernie
eb...@ellis.uchicago.edu