Manhattan Beach GP
ilan vardi
it would be a "girlie man" race after watching 3 weeks of the TDF.
Anyway, right after the finishing sprint some guy went up to Roberto
Gaggioli and started grabbing his jersey. Gaggioli unclipped and gave
him a swift kick that took him right down. The other guy was relegated
for illegal riding. Gagiolli was interviewed after and stated that he
had never experienced such behavior from anyone (right!). Anyway,
there was a slow motion replay with a direct side view, pretty good.
Neal Stoughton
I wasn't there but from the stories I heard from those that were, the
other guy was John Brady. He sustained a compound fracture of his leg
from the incident.
........................................................................
Neal Stoughton
Internet address: nmst...@uci.edu
Paul B. Anders
The "other guy" was John Brady, who didn't seem to have been relegated
when I was looking at the standings (maybe I missed something). Maybe the
winner of the race, Smac69, can fill us in on the details. Quite a
skills technique Gaggioli used (maybe the USCF can pick it up for one
of their clinics). Brady was holding onto his jersey, slightly behind
Roberto. Roberto unclipped, and kicked the side of Brady's handlebars
hard, dumping him onto his shoulder (and possibly face). Great incident
to have shown to a national TV audience...
--
****************************************
* Brad Anders * Sunnyvale, CA *
* ban...@netcom.com * *
****************************************
ez04...@chip.ucdavis.edu
: In article <314meh$3...@nntp2.Stanford.EDU>, il...@leland.Stanford.EDU
: >
: >This race was on ESPN yesterday and I didn't tape it because I thought
: >it would be a "girlie man" race after watching 3 weeks of the TDF.
: >Anyway, right after the finishing sprint some guy went up to Roberto
: >Gaggioli and started grabbing his jersey. Gaggioli unclipped and gave
: >him a swift kick that took him right down. The other guy was relegated
: >for illegal riding. Gagiolli was interviewed after and stated that he
: >had never experienced such behavior from anyone (right!). Anyway,
: >there was a slow motion replay with a direct side view, pretty good.
: I wasn't there but from the stories I heard from those that were, the
: other guy was John Brady. He sustained a compound fracture of his leg
: from the incident.
John broke his femur is four or five places (yes, FOUR or FIVE places).
He had surgery to put it together and the doctor put in a ~15 inch plate
to hold things together. They opened him up from knee to hip. I believe
that the doctor said something like, "It looked like a demolition zone in
there."
He's back in Sacramento now, but I have no idea what the prognosis is.
If I had to guess I would say that his racing career is over, but you
never know. Another rider who was behind him when he fell landed on top
of John and that is possibly what did all of the damage.
Kevin Metcalfe
metc...@smdis01.mcclellan.af.mil
Davis, CA
Gregory Wood
: John broke his femur is four or five places (yes, FOUR or FIVE places).
: He had surgery to put it together and the doctor put in a ~15 inch plate
: to hold things together. They opened him up from knee to hip. I believe
: that the doctor said something like, "It looked like a demolition zone in
: there."
: Kevin Metcalfe
: metc...@smdis01.mcclellan.af.mil
: Davis, CA
I heard from a friend who was there that there wer crashes in every
race - including something like 5 or 6 in the pro race, which included
John Brady's broken leg and another broken collar bone. I've raced
the course and know it can be tricky (two 180's), but have never
heard of such carnage. What gives? Anybody have a scoop?
Paul B. Anders
>[Kevin Metcalfe]
>Neal Stoughton (nmst...@e4e.oac.uci.edu) wrote:
>John broke his femur is four or five places (yes, FOUR or FIVE places).
>He had surgery to put it together and the doctor put in a ~15 inch plate
>to hold things together. They opened him up from knee to hip. I believe
>that the doctor said something like, "It looked like a demolition zone in
>there."
>
>He's back in Sacramento now, but I have no idea what the prognosis is.
>If I had to guess I would say that his racing career is over, but you
>never know. Another rider who was behind him when he fell landed on top
>of John and that is possibly what did all of the damage.
Seems like a pretty harsh penalty (at the hands of Gaggioli) to pay for
allegedly pulling on Roberto's shorts, then pulling on his jersey after
the race. Any reaction from the USCF on this ugly incident?
psmeu...@uwovax.uwo.ca
Someone else mentioned he was messing about with Gaggioli (sp?) after the
race had finished (pulling, tugging at jersey), and Roberto found a neat
way to ensure that it won't happen again. There was confirmation of Gaggioli's
actions by another person who watched it...so I think we are not rumour
mongering....and the results have been widely confirmed.
Since now we know so many details about how badly Mr. Brady has been
damaged, does anyone know if he REALLY was doing something nasty toward
Mr. Gaggioli to provoke it? Did Roberto misunderstand a gentle tug from
a guy wanting an autograph? Or did Mr. Brady have serious concerns and was
he posturing to pick a fight with G.?
Have there been any official sanctions against either of these riders? Not that
I think there SHOULD be (since I don't know all the details, and won't
comment on something I haven't SEEN for myself), but if there WAS some
sanction, it would go far toward convincing me that something DID happen,
OR in the worst case, the commissaire thought he/she saw something happen.
inquiring minds want to know....
P.Smeulders
Kevin J. Metcalfe
In a previous article, psmeu...@uwovax.uwo.ca ("Steve Bak") says:
>In article <3170ah$6...@cronkite.seas.gwu.edu>, ua860x@unix1 (Gregory Wood) writes:
>> ez04...@chip.ucdavis.edu wrote:
>>
>> : John broke his femur is four or five places (yes, FOUR or FIVE places).
>> : He had surgery to put it together and the doctor put in a ~15 inch plate
>> : to hold things together. They opened him up from knee to hip. I believe
>> : that the doctor said something like, "It looked like a demolition zone in
>> : there."
>>
>> : Kevin Metcalfe
>>
>Someone else mentioned he was messing about with Gaggioli (sp?) after the
>race had finished (pulling, tugging at jersey), and Roberto found a neat
>way to ensure that it won't happen again. There was confirmation of Gaggioli's
>actions by another person who watched it...so I think we are not rumour
>mongering....and the results have been widely confirmed.
>
>Since now we know so many details about how badly Mr. Brady has been
>damaged, does anyone know if he REALLY was doing something nasty toward
>Mr. Gaggioli to provoke it? Did Roberto misunderstand a gentle tug from
>a guy wanting an autograph? Or did Mr. Brady have serious concerns and was
>he posturing to pick a fight with G.?
>
Just in case some readers don't know: John Brady is one of the top
criterium riders in the country when he is fit. He rode for 7-11 for
two years and then for Spago.
John and Roberto were VERY physical during the last one or two corners
in this race fighting for second place behind Scott McKinley. My
sources at the race said that they were both out of line in the sprint
and could both have been relegated. This is of course second hand and
the stories depended upon how the story teller felt about John Brady
personally so take it with a grain of salt. Anyway, the point is that
John and Roberto are peers and know each other well. They fought out
the sprint and Brady was pretty pissed off I guess and wanted to talked
to Roberto about it. They both got physical and John ended up in the
hospital. This was a very unfortunate incident and there is probably
enough blame to be spread around equally. (My opinion.)
--
Kevin Metcalfe
Davis, CA
metc...@smdis01.mcclellan.af.mil
Patrick McNally
Anders) wrote:
> In article <CtM70...@ucdavis.edu> ez04...@chip.ucdavis.edu () writes:
> >[Kevin Metcalfe]
> >Neal Stoughton (nmst...@e4e.oac.uci.edu) wrote:
> >John broke his femur is four or five places (yes, FOUR or FIVE places).
> >He had surgery to put it together and the doctor put in a ~15 inch plate
> >to hold things together. They opened him up from knee to hip. I believe
> >that the doctor said something like, "It looked like a demolition zone in
> >there."
> >
WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED!!!!
SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME!!!
______________________________________
‹ Patrick McNally, BOB #2503
SMac69
writes:
`Someone else mentioned he was messing about with Gaggioli (sp?) after
`the
`race had finished (pulling, tugging at jersey), and Roberto found a neat
`way to ensure that it won't happen again. There was confirmation of
`Gaggioli's
`actions by another person who watched it...so I think we are not rumour
`mongering....and the results have been widely confirmed.
`Since now we know so many details about how badly Mr. Brady has been
`damaged, does anyone know if he REALLY was doing something nasty `toward
`Mr. Gaggioli to provoke it? Did Roberto misunderstand a gentle tug from
`a guy wanting an autograph? Or did Mr. Brady have serious concerns and
`was
`he posturing to pick a fight with G.?
THE MANHATTAN BEACH BRAWL:
As I perceived it:
I was leading out the sprint, which comes out of a hairpin corner at about
300m and bends sligthtly to the right. Gaggioli was on my wheel, with
Brady behind him. At about 200m, Gaggioli begins to come out of my draft
in an effort to come around the left. Brady moves up to my wheel and
begins to come between Gaggioli and me, but as I am literally in the
gutter hugging the corner and Gagg is just to the left, there is no room.
Brady reaches up and grabs hold of Gaggioli's hip to create room. When
Roberto, in the middle of a 38mph sprint for the win, feels an anonymous
hand pulling his hip, he swings blindly and violently behind him,
connecting with John Brady's face, then tries to sprint again, but Brady
had apparently pulled him hard enough to kill his speed and he drops to
5th by the time they cross the line, while Brady finishes second, one and
a half lengths behind me.
This was the first of two related incidents.
Roberto rides up to me a couple hundred meters after the line and
complains about Brady grabbing him in the sprint. A few seconds later
Brady comes roaring up, his face a mask of rage, and grabs Gaggioli by the
scruff of his neck and begins to scream at him and shake him. Gaggioli
immediately retaliates by kicking John's bike and John falls. We were
moving at about 15mph, and I remember thinking at that moment, "Now John's
really gonna kill him," because he hadn't fallen hard and I expected him
to come charging up at any moment. But John never came, and I turned
around to see what had happened. Apparently another rider had fallen on
top of John, which is what actually broke his leg.
This is a very sticky case. John's career may well be over. I stayed for
two days with him in the hospital and helped as he suffered. When I left
him he was very calm and had dismissed any thoughts of blame or ideas of
lawsuits, etc, but apparently someone riled him up enough to try to pin
the blame on Gaggioli, and nasty rumors began to spread.
This is very difficult for me because I rode for two years with John Brady
on 7-Eleven and Spago, and I've ridden with Roberto for two years on Coors
Light, and both men are my friends. While I do not want to take sides, I
think that this was a case of unnecessary provocation on the part of John
and overzealous retaliation on the part of Roberto. The bottom line is
that I believe John provoked and Rob merely retaliated; the severity of
the injury should not affect these facts. I think that what happens in
bike races should be finished with words rather than with fists.
-Scott McKinley
Coors Light Racing Team
psmeu...@uwovax.uwo.ca
> [snip my stuff]
> THE MANHATTAN BEACH BRAWL:
> As I perceived it:
>
Hey, cool. THIS GROUP NEEDS MORE O' THIS KINDA first hand, in-the-pack
commentary (Gods Roger, Steve, Seamus, tobias, Paul etc. exempted, of
course, that TdF coverage was equally outstanding!!). No more
speculation, less rumours.
Introduce the top-ranking racers to the net....and make 'em type!!
Someone nab Miguelon, Pantani, Rominger...Hinault, Lemond. But don't get 'em
hooked like some of us....I'd hate to hear that they've reduced training
time in order to participate in the world of computer-geekdom.
> I was leading out the sprint, which comes out of a hairpin corner at about
> 300m and bends sligthtly to the right. Gaggioli was on my wheel, with
> Brady behind him. At about 200m, Gaggioli begins to come out of my draft
> in an effort to come around the left. Brady moves up to my wheel and
> begins to come between Gaggioli and me, but as I am literally in the
> gutter hugging the corner and Gagg is just to the left, there is no room.
> Brady reaches up and grabs hold of Gaggioli's hip to create room. When
> Roberto, in the middle of a 38mph sprint for the win, feels an anonymous
> hand pulling his hip, he swings blindly and violently behind him,
> connecting with John Brady's face, then tries to sprint again, but Brady
> had apparently pulled him hard enough to kill his speed and he drops to
> 5th by the time they cross the line, while Brady finishes second, one and
> a half lengths behind me.
This is the thing I was wondering most about. It's usual to touch the thigh
of the guy whom you'd like to move over, as we all should know, but I think
it's UNUSUAL to do so in a sprint (am I wrong?). I figure you are going
too fast to reach out and still not adversely affect your own speed/uprightness.
I thought the elbows and shoulder-thing was preferred. The other danger
is that the signal (even if gentle, usual "tap-tap...lemme-hav-sum-room")
can be misunderstood by the other rider, especially when excited/pissed or
just in a really aggressive mood...such as in a sprint. I was really
hoping that Mr. B. only tried the "tap-tap" approach, and Mr.G. misunderstood.
I would then chalk it up to "just racing stuff" accident. However, it seems
B. was actually grabbing. Oh well. That's still just racing, but it does
cross a line. THIS still isn't a good excuse
for G. to retailiate after the race....unless through official channels,
but nobody likes to complain to the commissaires. IMHO G. dealt with the
initial tugging appropriately (you said "swings blindly behind")...too bad about
connection with the face...G. was PROBABLY trying to simply remove the hand on
his shorts, dealing with the problem on the spot. It should've stopped there.
> This was the first of two related incidents.
>
> Roberto rides up to me a couple hundred meters after the line and
> complains about Brady grabbing him in the sprint. A few seconds later
> Brady comes roaring up, his face a mask of rage, and grabs Gaggioli by the
> scruff of his neck and begins to scream at him and shake him. Gaggioli
> immediately retaliates by kicking John's bike and John falls. We were
> moving at about 15mph, and I remember thinking at that moment, "Now John's
> really gonna kill him," because he hadn't fallen hard and I expected him
> to come charging up at any moment. But John never came, and I turned
> around to see what had happened. Apparently another rider had fallen on
> top of John, which is what actually broke his leg.
Well, this is where it appears to have gone too far.
>
> This is a very sticky case. John's career may well be over. I stayed for
> two days with him in the hospital and helped as he suffered. When I left
> him he was very calm and had dismissed any thoughts of blame or ideas of
> lawsuits, etc, but apparently someone riled him up enough to try to pin
> the blame on Gaggioli, and nasty rumors began to spread.
>
And thanks for your commentary, this will go a long way toward killing off
any rumours (god knows if only someone had a stinking radar gun on Miguel that
day he "may or may not have hit 70 mph", we'd have saved a lot of net bandwidth
for something really important). The comment on lawsuits could be called
heresay evidence someday (lawyer-types out there?), so I don't think, if
B. has a change of heart, the comment would be held against him. I think
your post makes it clear that there is a good dose of "blame" and "racing
reality" to go around.
> This is very difficult for me because I rode for two years with John Brady
> on 7-Eleven and Spago, and I've ridden with Roberto for two years on Coors
> Light, and both men are my friends. While I do not want to take sides, I
> think that this was a case of unnecessary provocation on the part of John
> and overzealous retaliation on the part of Roberto. The bottom line is
> that I believe John provoked and Rob merely retaliated; the severity of
> the injury should not affect these facts. I think that what happens in
> bike races should be finished with words rather than with fists.
Here Here! My old club had a few infamous incidents which involved fists.
Things are never the same again. In the case you describe, two people make
a series of "avoidable" mistakes, the result being a serious injury, and I
think neither considered the potential severity of their actions. It's hard to
think straight immediately after a hard race with a rough-and-tumble
sprint. Emotions and adrenaline (sp?) are high (lets keep it THAT way, cause
it's exciting and fast), but in a perfect world both would be neutralized
after the finish line.
Hand it over to the commissaire, let him/her deal with it...that's THEIR job.
>
> -Scott McKinley
> Coors Light Racing Team
Thanks again, Scott. I hope your friend B. recovers faster than expected, and
I hope the incident serves as a lesson to some.
Congratulations on your win, although it sounds (reads) like you are
not terribly concerned with that anymore.
P. Smeulders
Paul B. Anders
>[description of events deleted]
>-Scott McKinley
>Coors Light Racing Team
>
Thanks for filling in the details. It's pretty hard to tell what happened when
you watch the "Running and Racing" coverage on ESPN, but the whole thing looked
ugly.
Two other things. I heard indirectly from Laura Charameda that at Superweek,
an overzealous course marshal broke Roberto's arm by throwing him down,
after he refused to obey the marshal. Seems Roberto was jumping out in the
road during Laura's race to give her time differentials and the marshal
didn't approve. Secondly, I want to apologize for accidentally attributing
comments from Kevin Metcalfe to Neal Stoughton (sp?) when I was replying
to Kevin's post regarding Manhattan Beach.
Chris Staszak
resemble a destruction derby. It's kind of like playing
DOOM, but on a bike!
Staze
SMac69
writes:
`Someone else mentioned he was messing about with Gaggioli (sp?) after
`the
`race had finished (pulling, tugging at jersey), and Roberto found a neat
`way to ensure that it won't happen again. There was confirmation of
`Gaggioli's
`actions by another person who watched it...so I think we are not rumour
`mongering....and the results have been widely confirmed.
`Since now we know so many details about how badly Mr. Brady has been
`damaged, does anyone know if he REALLY was doing something nasty `toward
`Mr. Gaggioli to provoke it? Did Roberto misunderstand a gentle tug from
`a guy wanting an autograph? Or did Mr. Brady have serious concerns and
`was
`he posturing to pick a fight with G.?
THE MANHATTAN BEACH BRAWL:
As I perceived it:
I was leading out the sprint, which comes out of a hairpin corner at about
300m and bends sligthtly to the right. Gaggioli was on my wheel, with
Brady behind him. At about 200m, Gaggioli begins to come out of my draft
in an effort to come around the left. Brady moves up to my wheel and
begins to come between Gaggioli and me, but as I am literally in the
gutter hugging the corner and Gagg is just to the left, there is no room.
Brady reaches up and grabs hold of Gaggioli's hip to create room. When
Roberto, in the middle of a 38mph sprint for the win, feels an anonymous
hand pulling his hip, he swings blindly and violently behind him,
connecting with John Brady's face, then tries to sprint again, but Brady
had apparently pulled him hard enough to kill his speed and he drops to
5th by the time they cross the line, while Brady finishes second, one and
a half lengths behind me.
This was the first of two related incidents.
Roberto rides up to me a couple hundred meters after the line and
complains about Brady grabbing him in the sprint. A few seconds later
Brady comes roaring up, his face a mask of rage, and grabs Gaggioli by the
scruff of his neck and begins to scream at him and shake him. Gaggioli
immediately retaliates by kicking John's bike and John falls. We were
moving at about 15mph, and I remember thinking at that moment, "Now John's
really gonna kill him," because he hadn't fallen hard and I expected him
to come charging up at any moment. But John never came, and I turned
around to see what had happened. Apparently another rider had fallen on
top of John, which is what actually broke his leg.
This is a very sticky case. John's career may well be over. I stayed for
two days with him in the hospital and helped as he suffered. When I left
him he was very calm and had dismissed any thoughts of blame or ideas of
lawsuits, etc, but apparently someone riled him up enough to try to pin
the blame on Gaggioli, and nasty rumors began to spread.
This is very difficult for me because I rode for two years with John Brady
on 7-Eleven and Spago, and I've ridden with Roberto for two years on Coors
Light, and both men are my friends. While I do not want to take sides, I
think that this was a case of unnecessary provocation on the part of John
and overzealous retaliation on the part of Roberto. The bottom line is
that I believe John provoked and Rob merely retaliated; the severity of
the injury should not affect these facts. I think that what happens in
bike races should be finished with words rather than with fists.
-Scott McKinley
Coors Light Racing Team
F Frank Rowe
[ as the topic drifts to Superweek... ]
>Two other things. I heard indirectly from Laura Charameda that at Superweek,
>an overzealous course marshal broke Roberto's arm by throwing him down,
>after he refused to obey the marshal. Seems Roberto was jumping out in the
>road during Laura's race to give her time differentials and the marshal
>didn't approve. Secondly, ....
His arm apparently wasn't broken. At the Norwest Cup yesterday, he was
wearing a bandage that was wrapped around his elbow. interestingly, the
Coors Light guy at the feed zone couldn't tell me what had happened to
Roberto. or maybe he just didn't want to bother explaining the injury
to me. anyway, the bandage made it easier to spot Roberto during the
race.
==============================================================
frank rowe f...@adc.com adc telecommunications, mpls mn usa