SACD bass management failure
Espen Braathen
week and the multichannel sound of the unit is basically USELESS due to the
improper design of the bass management.
The NS700 bass management (NS700 is a DVD-V/SACD player here in
Europe) operates in the following way:
The set up is set to full range speakers and subwoofer ON with equal gain in
all channels.
The LFE is output at a -4 dB comparable to the center channel!!! It should
have been +10 dB as it is in my home theater processor working under the
same conditions. Presumable the -4 dB is a headroom reservation. If you set
the front/center/surrounds to "small" the combined output will peak at the
approx same level as the center.
Conclusion: The LFE track is missing the correct +10 dB in band gain. In
total it will be -14 dB lower than it should be!!!
If you don't have a sub (subwoofer: OFF) the LFE is feed to the left and
right main channels, which both peak at approx -10 dB comparable to the peak
in the center at equal gain. This makes the LFE track about -16 dB to
soft!!!
I guess there is no need to say that the bass output from this bass manager
is extremly bass shy comparable to a real processor. Whats worse the same
arrangement seems to be used also during multichannel SACD playback. The
result is a useless reproduction with serious lacking bass - and if you dont
happen to use a subwoofer theres no way to adjust the LFE signal to the
approx correct level.
The paricular multichannel disc that I have is Frankie Goes To Hollywood:
Rage Hard - The Sonic Collection. Both the standard CD layer and the 2
channel DSD part has much more bass (I presume the correct bass level) than
the multichannel DSD part on this player. I am extremly disappointed and
wonder if any of the multichannel SACD products actually behaves in the
correct way - i.e. apply the correct +10 dB in band LFE gain and don't use
simple level reduction to avoid summation overload on the subwoofer output?
Espen Braathen
Kalman Rubinson
wrote:
>I have played around with a Sony DVP-NS700 DVD-V/SACD player in the last
>week and the multichannel sound of the unit is basically USELESS due to the
>improper design of the bass management.
snip
>Conclusion: The LFE track is missing the correct +10 dB in band gain. In
>total it will be -14 dB lower than it should be!!!
I do not know this machine but are there no adjustments?
Kal
Francois Yves Le Gal
wrote:
>I have played around with a Sony DVP-NS700 DVD-V/SACD player in the last
>week and the multichannel sound of the unit is basically USELESS due to the
>improper design of the bass management.
Well, Espen, there is light at the end of the tunnel; as the only defect
you've found with a multichannel SACD player is bass management
related...
Now try the same with a DVD-A player and report your findings, as we are
very eager to read them.
fathom
news:9rnq1c$fbi$1...@bourbaki.localdomain:
> On Tue, 30 Oct 2001 18:34:18 GMT, "Espen Braathen"
> <esp...@online.no> wrote:
>
>>I have played around with a Sony DVP-NS700 DVD-V/SACD player
>>in the last week and the multichannel sound of the unit is
>>basically USELESS due to the improper design of the bass
>>management.
>
> Well, Espen, there is light at the end of the tunnel; as the
> only defect you've found with a multichannel SACD player is
> bass management related...
It's more than a small defect if the bottom 2 octaves are
missing. He might as well be listening to a multichannel clock
radio.
> Now try the same with a DVD-A player and report your
> findings, as we are very eager to read them.
Few DVD-A players have bass management, either. I believe the
Denon DVM-4800 is the first.
This oversight is inexcusable, yet the manufactures have ignored
it for more than a year. And they wonder why the new formats are
struggling.
Francois Yves Le Gal
>It's more than a small defect if the bottom 2 octaves are
>missing.
They aren't missing. You need full range speakers on all channels, as
there is no bass redirection to the LFE.
Espen Braathen
meldingsnyheter:9rnq1c$fbi$1...@bourbaki.localdomain...
> On Tue, 30 Oct 2001 18:34:18 GMT, "Espen Braathen" <esp...@online.no>
> wrote:
>
> >I have played around with a Sony DVP-NS700 DVD-V/SACD player in the last
> >week and the multichannel sound of the unit is basically USELESS due to
the
> >improper design of the bass management.
>
> Well, Espen, there is light at the end of the tunnel; as the only defect
> you've found with a multichannel SACD player is bass management
> related...
The only perfect thing about SACD so far is that the FGTH disc was a give
away at the SACD press conference in Berlin...
> Now try the same with a DVD-A player and report your findings, as we are
> very eager to read them.
All my DVD-A discs play perfectly thanks to the 5.1 Dolby Digital track
digitaly output to my advanced surround processor.
Try that with your SACDs!
Espen
Stian Gårdsvoll
news:9rpk53$7km$1...@bourbaki.localdomain...
How can you then expect to sell it? Is everyone willing to spend, fx for my
part, USD 2000 to get full range in the rears?
NO system can succeed when setting such limits for the usage.
--
Stian Gårdsvoll
Espen Braathen
meldingsnyheter:9rpk53$7km$1...@bourbaki.localdomain...
Actually the problem is that theres no propper LFE to front redirection if
you don't have a subwoofer. Also the LFE is missing the required +10 dB
boost and further shifted down in level with approx 5 dB (for a total of 15
dB lower level than the main channels) to provide headroom in the subwoofer
output.
Many multichannel SACD pop/rock releases have most of the bass stripped from
the left & right channels and placed into the LFE. They will sound extremly
bass shy in todays set-ups.
Espen
Stian Gårdsvoll
news:9rpnu4$aor$1...@bourbaki.localdomain...
If you consider Dolby Digital to perform "perfectly", then that makes YOU
happy. What about us others?
I would call it swindle if only the "spare-soundtrack" could give an OK
experience...
--
Stian Gårdsvoll
Kalman Rubinson
<stian...@stiang.com> wrote:
>How can you then expect to sell it? Is everyone willing to spend, fx for my
>part, USD 2000 to get full range in the rears?
>
>NO system can succeed when setting such limits for the usage.
Some recent Sony MC SACD players have bass redirection.
Kal
Francois Yves Le Gal
wrote:
>Actually the problem is that theres no propper LFE to front redirection if
>you don't have a subwoofer.
Poor bass management at work, again.
>Also the LFE is missing the required +10 dB
>boost and further shifted down in level with approx 5 dB (for a total of 15
>dB lower level than the main channels) to provide headroom in the subwoofer
>output.
Not a big problem in my book: just boost the LFE level.
>Many multichannel SACD pop/rock releases have most of the bass stripped from
>the left & right channels and placed into the LFE. They will sound extremly
>bass shy in todays set-ups.
Hmm, that would contradict what I've heard in various demos, with
substantial bass from the main channels, and very few on the LFE.
Francois Yves Le Gal
wrote:
>All my DVD-A discs play perfectly thanks to the 5.1 Dolby Digital track
>digitaly output to my advanced surround processor.
Yes, but you don't need a DVD-A player for this, any DVD player would
work!
What about the HR PCM multichannel track? All, well, most, current DVD-A
players don't implement bass management functions.
>Try that with your SACDs!
My Sony SCD-1 is a stereo player.
Stian Gårdsvoll
news:9rpr9g$cve$1...@bourbaki.localdomain...
Which?
Wouldn't this be an interesting matter to close in on in Stereophile, Kal?
"The inconvenience of SACD and DVD-A"....
--
Stian Gårdsvoll
Stian Gårdsvoll
news:9rprgr$d42$1...@bourbaki.localdomain...
> On Wed, 31 Oct 2001 21:13:51 GMT, "Espen Braathen" <esp...@online.no>
> wrote:
>
> >Actually the problem is that theres no propper LFE to front redirection
if
> >you don't have a subwoofer.
>
> Poor bass management at work, again.
>
> >Also the LFE is missing the required +10 dB
> >boost and further shifted down in level with approx 5 dB (for a total of
15
> >dB lower level than the main channels) to provide headroom in the
subwoofer
> >output.
>
> Not a big problem in my book: just boost the LFE level.
Could you please list the receivers/preamps that support an boost of over 12
dB of the LFE?
--
Stian Gårdsvoll
Kalman Rubinson
<stian...@stiang.com> wrote:
>"Kalman Rubinson" <k...@nyu.edu> wrote in message
>> Some recent Sony MC SACD players have bass redirection.
>
>Which?
I know the XA-777ES does and I believe the 555ES does, too.
>Wouldn't this be an interesting matter to close in on in Stereophile, Kal?
>"The inconvenience of SACD and DVD-A"....
Already did it in editorial in June 2001.
Kal
Espen Braathen
> On Wed, 31 Oct 2001 21:13:51 GMT, "Espen Braathen" <esp...@online.no>
> wrote:
>
> >Actually the problem is that theres no propper LFE to front redirection
if
> >you don't have a subwoofer.
>
> Poor bass management at work, again.
Tell me something that I don't know...
> >Also the LFE is missing the required +10 dB
> >boost and further shifted down in level with approx 5 dB (for a total of
15
> >dB lower level than the main channels) to provide headroom in the
subwoofer
> >output.
>
> Not a big problem in my book: just boost the LFE level.
It works, IF you don't use the internal bass manager (in that case the -15
dB LFE will be mixed with various scaled versions of bass from the "small"
channels: i.e. center and surround). Also, obtaining the +15 dB boost will
be a serious difficulty with a lot of standard equipment, especially if you
still need to use the same level controls to calibrate your set up.
> >Many multichannel SACD pop/rock releases have most of the bass stripped
from
> >the left & right channels and placed into the LFE. They will sound
extremly
> >bass shy in todays set-ups.
>
> Hmm, that would contradict what I've heard in various demos, with
> substantial bass from the main channels, and very few on the LFE.
Try FGTH... If you compare the front channels in the MC mix you will
discover that the bass is almost gone compared to the 2 CH DSD version.
Which brings us to the real problem: Don't use LFE for bass in multichannel
music.
Espen
Espen Braathen
meldingsnyheter:9rppji$bqv$1...@bourbaki.localdomain...
> I would call it swindle if only the "spare-soundtrack" could give an OK
> experience...
DVD-A and SACD _is_ a swindle! They represent the phonographic industries
desire to shift consumers to a record medium which can not be as easily
copied as todays CD's.
Espen
Francois Yves Le Gal
<stian...@stiang.com> wrote:
>Could you please list the receivers/preamps that support an boost of over 12
>dB of the LFE?
Easy: any. just tack +10 dB on the LFE and -5 dB on all other channels,
and, presto, you've got +15 dB on the LFE.
Kalman Rubinson
wrote:
>Try FGTH... If you compare the front channels in the MC mix you will
>discover that the bass is almost gone compared to the 2 CH DSD version.
What the hell is FGTH?
Kal
Harry Lavo
news:9rpk53$7km$1...@bourbaki.localdomain...
To me, this indicate SONY also thinks that multichannel MUSIC reproduction
needs full range surround reproduction rather than the 5.1 home theatre
setup. It may be a marketing mistake, but it suggests where their
developers heads were at.
Stian Gårdsvoll
Frankie Goes To Hollywood.
--
Stian Gårdsvoll
Stian Gårdsvoll
> On Wed, 31 Oct 2001 21:57:06 GMT, "Stian Gårdsvoll"
> <stian...@stiang.com> wrote:
>
> >"Kalman Rubinson" <k...@nyu.edu> wrote in message
>
> >> Some recent Sony MC SACD players have bass redirection.
> >
> >Which?
>
> I know the XA-777ES does and I believe the 555ES does, too.
This does seem quite strange. Why implement a so important feature for low-
and medium-priced setups on the most expensive components in the range? I
mean; if you spend USD 3000 on a SACD-player, you probably don't need bass
management because you already have spent so many $$$ on full range speakers
for all channels. If you spend USD 3000 on a CD player you got a
non-compromise setup (or are just stupid, as some may claim) and have not
been caught in the compromise of small speakers for the rear, as an example.
Bass Management is a require feature on every piece of multichannel player
aiming for the lower market segment.
Why doesn't the DVD-Audio and SACD camps understand this?
--
Stian Gårdsvoll
Kalman Rubinson
<stian...@stiang.com> wrote:
>"Kalman Rubinson" <k...@nyu.edu> wrote in message
>news:9rqang$njd$1...@bourbaki.localdomain...
>> What the hell is FGTH?
>
>Frankie Goes To Hollywood.
Oh. Never met him.
Kal
Stian Gårdsvoll
I hope that was irony....
If not: http://www.fgth.cjb.net/
--
Stian Gårdsvoll
fathom
This is insane. You should be able to direct the low bass to a
sub. How many people have room (or money) for 5 speakers capable
of doing 30Hz? And how many center channels even go that low?
If SACD is only listenable for those who can dedicate space and
money for 5 floor-standing speakers, the format will fail.
fathom
news:9rpsii$dou$1...@bourbaki.localdomain:
If you have a powered sub, just boost it with the level control
on the sub.
Francois Yves Le Gal
wrote:
>Which brings us to the real problem: Don't use LFE for bass in multichannel
>music.
Agreed. The LFE is in my book a dedicated channel for low frequency
effects (hence it's name), not a general purpose bass channel. It should
only be used as such, either at the recording/misxing/mastering stages
or when listening at home.
fathom
Exactly. Multichannel as currently implemented is a rip-off,
because of the analog output required. Here we all have these
nice 24/96 or 24/192 processors that would handle a hi-res
digital signal perfectly (with bass management!), yet the
hardware people caved in to the RIAA and MPAA. It's pitiful.
DTS CDs are the ultimate multichannel format. They play in any
CD or DVD player with a digital out, sound great, and you can
even clone them on a CD-RW deck. I guess that last part is what
scared the record comapanies into watermarking and analog
connections.
Francois Yves Le Gal
>You should be able to direct the low bass to a
>sub.
Why? Directing all bass to the LFE channel wreaks havoc to properly
recorded soundtracks and brings a much less immersive experience.
>How many people have room (or money) for 5 speakers capable
>of doing 30Hz? And how many center channels even go that low?
You don't need 30 Hz on all channels, as any decent wide range
loudspeaker is fine: most music doesn't contain significant info below
40 Hz or so, and most multichannel soundtracks only use the center and
rear channels for ambience.
Even fully fledged 5.1 recordings, with significant content on all
channels, are better reproduced by decent speakers in "large" mode with
a sub dedicated to the LFE than by the same speakers in "small" mode
with a sub receiving LFE + bass.
>If SACD is only listenable for those who can dedicate space and
>money for 5 floor-standing speakers, the format will fail.
Well, if people are unable to get the right equipment in order to
appreciate high resolution digital, either in LPCM (DVD-A) or DSD (SACD)
guise, why should they bother with new players, new discs and
everything?
Dolby Digital or DTS are more than adequate for such a context, and
nearly all decoders have some built-in bass management.
Howard Ferstler
I think it was simply a huge marketing error that may do
them a great deal of damage.
Nobody thought to analyze the fact that most people who will
be getting involved in multi-channel audio will have sub/sat
systems with often smallish satellites. I rather doubt that
the marketing people would have let the error happen, had
they known what was going on. It is also possible the
engineers who built the SACD and DVD-A systems did not
realize that few receivers or processors have bass
management with their 5.1-channel analog input circuits.
One exception, by the way, is the Yamaha DSP-A1 that I use.
It has full bass management and speaker-distance adjusting
on those multichannel analog inputs.
Howard Ferstler
Howard Ferstler
I suggest getting a test disc like the Avia DVD, in order to
properly set up the main, center, surround, and subwoofer
speakers.
Howard Ferstler
Espen Braathen
meldingsnyheter:9rse6q$889$1...@bourbaki.localdomain...
>
> One exception, by the way, is the Yamaha DSP-A1 that I use.
> It has full bass management and speaker-distance adjusting
> on those multichannel analog inputs.
Well, its one of the few products that digitalize the signal on the
6-channel input, something you might not want to do with your pristine DSD
og High Res PCM source signal... (If it really degrade the signal that much
is another matter.)
The new high end Pioneer receivers will also offer this feature.
Espen
Dan Shike
it is made to solve this problem.
Kalman Rubinson
wrote:
>check out the ICBM from outlaw audio.
Another box, another half dozen interconnects.
Kal
Espen Braathen
meldingsnyheter:9rs9og$4ue$1...@bourbaki.localdomain...
>
> If you have a powered sub, just boost it with the level control
> on the sub.
Afaik the bass manager used in Sonys multichannel SACD players usually has a
x-over set at 120 Hz. (To coincide with the 120 Hz LFE limit?) This is way
to high for any serious application. To make things worse the low pass
filter has a -12 dB/octave slope and the high pass filter a -6 dB/octave
slope.
If you set the center channel to "small" you can almost hear the lead singer
from the subwoofer!
Even if the bass levels where handled correctly this type of bass management
can only be described as substandard compared to the real thing (80 Hz, -24
dB LPF and -12 dB HPF).
Espen Braathen
www.eyefi.no
Lv70smusic
without using bass management, unless one also uses inadequate speakers for the
main front channels (though I shudder at the thought of anyone doing this).
While I live in an apartment and the room with my a/v equipment is only about
18x22, I have four, full range, floor standing speakers; a center channel on my
tv; and a subwoofer. Crowded, yes, but worth it in my opinion.
Time will tell what happens, but my guess is that more SACD and dvd-a players
will start incorporating bass management, and better bass management at that,
because the market will demand that. I think that the initial design is most
appropriate for those who truly want to benefit from the higher resolution
these formats offer, however. Why run the audio signal through extra,
unnecessary circuitry?
Of course, different discs are mixed differently. The Corrs dvd-a sounds just
fine without a subwoofer hooked up if you have full range speakers, though a
sub makes it sound better. Fleetwood Mac's "Rumours" on dvd-a, however,
absolutely requires a sub for the surround version as much of the bass
information is mixed to the .1 channel. While there is some mid-bass in the
main channels, but hunch is that this disc would transfer fairly well to a
sub/satellite system.
Then again, this is the "high-end" newsgroup. Is there a "high end"
sub/satellite speaker system? (I'm not referring to decent quality "bookshelf"
speakers.)
I don't think that one needs speakers capable of doing 30 Hz. The mass market
has long been satisfied with less in terms of stereo equipment, so why wouldn't
it accept the lack of true bass in a surround format? Much pop and rock music
actually accentuates the mid and upper bass, anyway, not bass in the pipe organ
region.
>Subject: Re: SACD bass management failure
From: tgr...@maig.com (fathom)
>Date: 11/1/2001 12:02 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <9rs9l3$4sb$1...@bourbaki.localdomain>
fathom
news:9rscp3$732$1...@bourbaki.localdomain:
So forget marketing the new formats to anyone who does not have 5
full-range speakers. It didn't have to be that way.
fathom
> On Thu, 01 Nov 2001 20:02:06 GMT, tgr...@maig.com (fathom)
> wrote:
>
>>You should be able to direct the low bass to a sub.
>
> Why? Directing all bass to the LFE channel wreaks havoc to
> properly recorded soundtracks and brings a much less
> immersive experience.
>
>>How many people have room (or money) for 5 speakers capable
>>of doing 30Hz? And how many center channels even go that
>>low?
>
> You don't need 30 Hz on all channels, as any decent wide
> range loudspeaker is fine: most music doesn't contain
> significant info below 40 Hz or so, and most multichannel
> soundtracks only use the center and rear channels for
> ambience.
>
> Even fully fledged 5.1 recordings, with significant content
> on all channels, are better reproduced by decent speakers in
> "large" mode with a sub dedicated to the LFE than by the same
> speakers in "small" mode with a sub receiving LFE + bass.
I dunno. My main L-C-R speakers have 4" drivers, yet I get very
good results using 2 modest powered subs, an 8" and a 10",
crossed over at 110 and 80 Hz, respectively. The whole shebang
fits into a 4' corner of the den, including 6 components and a
38" HDTV. My days of owning 50" towers are over.
>>If SACD is only listenable for those who can dedicate space
>>and money for 5 floor-standing speakers, the format will
>>fail.
>
> Well, if people are unable to get the right equipment in
> order to appreciate high resolution digital, either in LPCM
> (DVD-A) or DSD (SACD) guise, why should they bother with new
> players, new discs and everything?
Exactly. Why bother? Somehow I don't think that's the answer
Sony and Panasonic want to hear, though.
> Dolby Digital or DTS are more than adequate for such a
> context, and nearly all decoders have some built-in bass
> management.
DD and DTS sound great on my system, so does surround-enhanced 2-
channel. There's no technical reason (only political) why DVD-A
and SACD could not also sound wonderful on my system. This is
old science.
I would ask you, if you are correct, why is there such a
clamoring for bass-management facilities on hi-res multichannel
players?
Francois Yves Le Gal
>So forget marketing the new formats to anyone who does not have 5
>full-range speakers. It didn't have to be that way.
Yawn. Any decent speaker works fine in "wide" mode for DVD-A and SACD
applications. Let me kindly rephrase with Caps lock, just in case: ANY.
If your speakers aren't full range, you're not listening to high
fidelity, but to a B... or equivalent glorified boombox.
And if this newsgroup is called rec.audio.high-end, it's because it's
not suposed to deal with sub par equipment.
:-)
Francois Yves Le Gal
>I would ask you, if you are correct, why is there such a
>clamoring for bass-management facilities on hi-res multichannel
>players?
I don't lknow, as I'm not a "single sub/bass management" proponent,
finding that going wide on all channels brings substantial subjective
benefits.
fathom
news:9rtc98$crk$1...@bourbaki.localdomain:
> Then again, this is the "high-end" newsgroup. Is there a
> "high end" sub/satellite speaker system? (I'm not referring
> to decent quality "bookshelf" speakers.)
Stereophile thought so; they featured a powered 3-piece set on
their cover recently. They also have sections for "restricted
LF" in their Recommended Components.
jj, DBT thug and skeptical philalethist
fathom <tgr...@maig.com> wrote:
>I would ask you, if you are correct, why is there such a
>clamoring for bass-management facilities on hi-res multichannel
>players?
Obviously, because of the present recording techniques, people
aren't aware that there is any value to independent bass down
to 40 Hz.
What's more, "bass management" doesn't have to be monophonic, it
doesn't have to be "dumb", ...
What technology permits is much more than what we have today.
--
Copyright j...@research.att.com 2001, all rights reserved, except transmission
by USENET and like facilities granted. This notice must be included. Any
use by a provider charging in any way for the IP represented in and by this
article and any inclusion in print or other media are specifically prohibited.
Stian Gårdsvoll
news:9ruog2$n5m$1...@bourbaki.localdomain...
Do you consider this front setup as "sub par":
B&W Nautilus 805
B&W Nautilus HTM2
?
This might well be classified as "high-end" but may absolutely benefit from
bass management!
--
Stian Gårdsvoll
Francois Yves Le Gal
<stian...@stiang.com> wrote:
>Do you consider this front setup as "sub par":
No, I don't.
>This might well be classified as "high-end" but may absolutely benefit from
>bass management!
Then you've got a system, software or setup problem. The 805's and the
HTM fully qualify as full range speakers because of their extended
response at least down to 40 Hz in room and should be used in "wide"
mode.
Francois Yves Le Gal
>Stereophile thought so; they featured a powered 3-piece set on
>their cover recently.
Please read the review.
>They also have sections for "restricted
>LF" in their Recommended Components.
Most wide range speakers are considered as "restricted LF" by
Stereophile.
fathom
> On Fri, 02 Nov 2001 18:37:45 GMT, tgr...@maig.com (fathom)
> wrote:
>
>>Stereophile thought so; they featured a powered 3-piece set
>>on their cover recently.
>
> Please read the review.
I did. They described the set as providing high-end sound
quality.
Francois Yves Le Gal
>I did. They described the set as providing high-end sound
>quality.
Sure. Then re-read waht Stereophile published on the Acoustic Energy
AEGO2 (SP Vol.24 N°3, March 2001).
- It is not a formal review but part of the "Analog Corner" column,
written by Michael Fremer.
- The context is PC speakers, and Fremer did the listening following an
assignment by "Wired" on this subject.
- A couple of quotes: "Every so often a product shows up that surprises
the hell out of me .../... What poured forth was what I would I have to
call high end audio. It wasn't perfect, but it was way superior to any
other small sat-sub system."
- Fremer's conclusion: "Using the AEGO2, you might actually enjoy
listening to music thru your computer .../... [or] as a credible music
system when connected to a CD player"
The AEGO2, which retails for USD699, is listed in SP's "recommended
components" in "Class E", E stands for entry level, not for high end, in
SP's parlance. It is, according to SP, a very nice sub/sat combo, much
superior to the usual Cambridge Soundworks et al.
For the *same* budget, you can get a pair of still compact, but better
sounding and more extended speakers, such as the "Class D" PSB Alpha A/V
(USD249 per pair), or Acoustic Energy Aegis One (USD299 per pair),
*PLUS* a quality "Class C" subwoofer, such as the Hsu Research TN1225HO
(USD359) - or the PSB Alpha SubSonic 5 (USD449).
fathom
These players use analog connections.
What do you mean by "going wide"?
Andrew Korsh
un-finished prototype.
On behalf of Sony,Panasonic,and Pioneer I'd like to thank everybody
with one of these machines for doing the R&D for us(and paying for the
privilege!).
The subject of why surround for music sucks for the average 5.1 HT
set-up I'll leave for another post.
Cheers,
Andy
---------------------------------------------------------------
SACD bass management failure
Group: rec.audio.high-end Date: Tue, Oct 30, 2001, 6:34pm (EST+5) From:
esp...@online.no (Espen Braathen)
>I have played around with a Sony DVP-NS700 DVD-V/SACD player in the last
>week and the multichannel sound of the unit is basically USELESS due to
>the improper design of the bass management.
>The NS700 bass management (NS700 is a DVD-V/SACD player here in Europe)
>operates in the following way:
>The set up is set to full range speakers and subwoofer ON with equal
>gain in all channels.
>The LFE is output at a -4 dB comparable to the center channel!!! It
>should have been +10 dB as it is in my home theater processor working
>under the same conditions. Presumable the -4 dB is a headroom
>reservation. If you set the front/center/surrounds to "small" the
>combined output will peak at the approx same level as the center.
>Conclusion: The LFE track is missing the correct +10 dB in band gain. In
>total it will be -14 dB lower than it should be!!!
>If you don't have a sub (subwoofer: OFF) the LFE is feed to the left and
>right main channels, which both peak at approx -10 dB comparable to the
>peak in the center at equal gain. This makes the LFE track about -16 dB
>to soft!!!
>I guess there is no need to say that the bass output from this bass
>manager is extremly bass shy comparable to a real processor. Whats worse
>the same arrangement seems to be used also during multichannel SACD
>playback. The result is a useless reproduction with serious lacking bass
>- and if you dont happen to use a subwoofer theres no way to adjust the
>LFE signal to the approx correct level.
>The paricular multichannel disc that I have is Frankie Goes To
>Hollywood: Rage Hard - The Sonic Collection. Both the standard CD layer
>and the 2 channel DSD part has much more bass (I presume the correct
>bass level) than the multichannel DSD part on this player. I am extremly
>disappointed and wonder if any of the multichannel SACD products
>actually behaves in the correct way - i.e. apply the correct +10 dB in
>band LFE gain and don't use simple level reduction to avoid summation
>overload on the subwoofer output?
>Espen Braathen
Francois Yves Le Gal
>What do you mean by "going wide"?
Using wide range speakers on all 5 channels, and using the LFE as an
LFE.
Espen Braathen
meldingsnyheter:9s6om...@enews4.newsguy.com...
> Obviously,If you've got either a dvd-a or sacd player you've got an
> un-finished prototype.
> On behalf of Sony,Panasonic,and Pioneer I'd like to thank everybody
> with one of these machines for doing the R&D for us(and paying for the
> privilege!).
Thankfully the SACD playback was bundled with an excellent DVD-Video and
CD-playback performance...
Espen
Andrew Korsh
-------------------------------------------------------------
>Obviously,If you've got either a dvd-a or sacd player you've got an
un-finished prototype.
On behalf of Sony,Panasonic,and Pioneer I'd like to thank everybody
with one of these machines for doing the R&D for us(and paying for
the privilege!).<
Espen replied
------------------------------------------------------------
>Thankfully the SACD playback was bundled with an excellent DVD-Video
and CD-playback performance...
Espen <
Then you might want to try some Classic Records DAD's.They ROCK,plus
no stupid copy protection to water down performance!
Cheers,
Andy
fathom
> On Mon, 05 Nov 2001 06:08:49 GMT, tgr...@maig.com (fathom)
> wrote:
>
>>I did. They described the set as providing high-end sound
>>quality.
>
> Sure. Then re-read waht Stereophile published on the Acoustic
> Energy AEGO2 (SP Vol.24 N°3, March 2001).
>
> - It is not a formal review but part of the "Analog Corner"
> column, written by Michael Fremer.
>
> - The context is PC speakers, and Fremer did the listening
> following an assignment by "Wired" on this subject.
>
> - A couple of quotes: "Every so often a product shows up that
> surprises the hell out of me .../... What poured forth was
> what I would I have to call high end audio. It wasn't
> perfect, but it was way superior to any other small sat-sub
> system."
>
> - Fremer's conclusion: "Using the AEGO2, you might actually
> enjoy listening to music thru your computer .../... [or] as a
> credible music system when connected to a CD player"
>
> The AEGO2, which retails for USD699, is listed in SP's
> "recommended components" in "Class E", E stands for entry
> level, not for high end, in SP's parlance. It is, according
> to SP, a very nice sub/sat combo, much superior to the usual
> Cambridge Soundworks et al.
I didn't pay $699 for my Aego2 set. I got it for $345 shipped.
Well worth it, and cheaper than any equivalent in sound quality
(don't forget that 4 channels of power are included). The size is
perfect for computer use, but I use them in many other locations.
They sound great out on the deck while my wife and I work in the
yard. And they're perfect to take on the road for use in hotel
rooms.
> For the *same* budget, you can get a pair of still compact,
> but better sounding and more extended speakers, such as the
> "Class D" PSB Alpha A/V (USD249 per pair), or Acoustic Energy
> Aegis One (USD299 per pair), *PLUS* a quality "Class C"
> subwoofer, such as the Hsu Research TN1225HO (USD359) - or
> the PSB Alpha SubSonic 5 (USD449).
But we're talking about 5-channel systems suitable for hi-res
audio and movie sound, aren't we? My five speakers are -2dB @ 64
Hz; they require a subwoofer. So do the speakers you have
suggested above. That's why bass management is needed in SACD
and DVD-A players.