Holte Has the Dai Gohonzon!
Cody in Spain
Chris Holte
My, my. Now we see another side of Mr. Holte.
Cody
Jim Cub 3D
Duh. It's what Nichiren taught, and what SGI members have been saying, for
years. The ones who think the Gohonzon - Dai or otherwise -- is separate from
their own lives is "Nichiren" Shoshu.
Jim
Visit <bekkoame.or.jp/~bone>
Visit <homestead.com/justicevictory
Cody in Spain
Jim Cub 3D > escribió en el mensaje de noticias
No, Nichiren did not teach that Mr. Holte has the Dai Gohonzon. It is
enshrined at the Head Temple of True Buddhism and no longer has anything to
do with SGI, the lay organisation without a religion or Gohonzon.
Sorry.
Cody
Alan on
> No, Nichiren did not teach that Mr. Holte has the Dai Gohonzon.
Yeah he did. He also taught that I have one too.
Read the Gosho and you'll see.
Alan
Paul
The Daishonin didn't say that you have a Daigohonzon - that would be a
wretchedly stupid misunderstanding of his doctrine. He did occassionally use the
word Gohonzon as a metaphor for the Buddha nature inherent in all of us that is
activated when we worship the Daigohonzon or a valid, active transcription of
it. He used the metaphor "Gohonzon" to illustrate the point that we can attain
the same life enlightened life state as the Buddha being worshipped.
p
P
SGI : No longer "Buddhism"
http://freespace.virgin.net/uk.buddhism/sginfo.htm
http://hokke.co.uk
Cody in Spain
Cody
Paul > escribió en el mensaje de noticias > On Wed, 29 Sep 1999
21:08:44 -0800, Alan on <wrote:
Mr T
> On Wed, 29 Sep 1999 21:08:44 -0800, Alan on <gra...@inreach.com> wrote:
>
> >Cody in Spain wrote:
> >
> >> No, Nichiren did not teach that Mr. Holte has the Dai Gohonzon.
> >
> >Yeah he did. He also taught that I have one too.
>
> >Read the Gosho and you'll see.
>
>
>
> The Daishonin didn't say that you have a Daigohonzon - that would be a
> wretchedly stupid misunderstanding of his doctrine. He did occassionally
use the
> word Gohonzon as a metaphor for the Buddha nature inherent in all of us
that is
> activated when we worship the Daigohonzon or a valid, active transcription of
> it. He used the metaphor "Gohonzon" to illustrate the point that we can attain
> the same life enlightened life state as the Buddha being worshipped.
>
> p
>
> P
>
Thanks Paul,
Everytime time I hear that erroneous "Gohonzon is within you" mantra
repeated over and over by SGIers, it just amazes me.
--
Kurt
anti-spam measure:
to reply send to: martman at primenet dot com
Christopher H. Holte
block of camphor wood (I wish I did!). If I could get my hands on your
block of camphor wood, I'd make as many copies as I dared!
In article <938637958.263742@cache1>,
--
<a href="http://www.gosho.net/">Read the Gosho for yourself!</a><br>
<a href= "http://www.geocities.com/athens/ithaca/9011/">
Christopher H. Holte</a>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Christopher H. Holte
Gohonzon either. In fact he seems to have referred to the Gohonzon he
conferred on his various disciples as the "Dai Gohonzon", including
that Nichizon Gohonzon that seems to have been the "template" for
yours. Nichiren would have had the story of Sessen Doji in mind and
have wanted his teachings spread far and wide not concentrated in one
place until the day came when the entire country embraced the correct
dharma.
In article <938680786.131463@cache1>,
"Cody in Spain" <i...@jamthespamersciberia.com> wrote:
> Thank you, Paul, couldn't have put it better myself.
>
> Cody
> Paul > escribió en el mensaje de noticias > On Wed, 29 Sep 1999
> 21:08:44 -0800, Alan on <wrote:
> >
> > >Cody in Spain wrote:
> > >
> > >> No, Nichiren did not teach that Mr. Holte has the Dai Gohonzon.
> > >
> > >Yeah he did. He also taught that I have one too.
> >
> > >Read the Gosho and you'll see.
> >
> >
> >
> > The Daishonin didn't say that you have a Daigohonzon - that would
be a
> > wretchedly stupid misunderstanding of his doctrine. He did
occassionally
> use the
> > word Gohonzon as a metaphor for the Buddha nature inherent in all
of us
> that is
> > activated when we worship the Daigohonzon or a valid, active
transcription
> of
> > it. He used the metaphor "Gohonzon" to illustrate the point that we
can
> attain
> > the same life enlightened life state as the Buddha being worshipped.
> >
> > p
> >
> > P
> >
> >
> > SGI : No longer "Buddhism"
> >
> > http://freespace.virgin.net/uk.buddhism/sginfo.htm
> > http://hokke.co.uk
>
>
--
Cult Watcher International
>>>He didn't exactly teach that Nichiren Shoshu should have the Dai
Gohonzon either. In fact he seems to have referred to the Gohonzon he
conferred on his various disciples as the "Dai Gohonzon", including
that Nichizon Gohonzon that seems to have been the "template" for
yours.<<<
See- the only ones who believe SGI's bullshit are the members
themselves. Like I have been saying all along- the "Kawabe notes"
were published for the sake of SGI members, because they are
the only ones gullible enough to believe that the DaiGohonzon is fake.
Their plan is working perfectly.
"I didn't say I have a block of camphor wood (I wish I did!).
If I could get my hands on your block of camphor wood, I'd
make as many copies as I dared!"
Chris Holte
"I have admitted that there are gaps in my understanding
of what constitutes a valid Gohonzon - that is, I don't
know about Gohonzons inscribed on napkins or rutabagas"
Brian Holly, SGI member, University professor
"As for cocktail napkins, if there were nothing better available, and
one wanted to perpetuate the Law, one would use what is available that
allows them to act in the same mind as Nichiren."
Jim Celer, SGI Midwest Bureau "Chief"
"Opinions are all anybody has."
Brian Holly, SGI "Scholar"
"Nichiren Shoshu priesthood and Hokkeko are "Slanderers" but not
Christians and Mulims."
Andy 357, SGI member
"The trouble with the arguments on both sides are that on the one hand
Nichiren Shoshu tries to maintain that Nichiren is the True Buddha
while relying primarily on those documents that can be disparaged."
Chris Holte, SGI member
"Buddhism is nothing but humanism."
Andrew357, SGI-USA member
"I could make some retort about the Nikken sect being only 9 years old,
but both the SGI and the Temple have firmly shown that Nichiren Show shoe
has not changed at all."
Chris Holte
"We finally have been apprised of what the other Sects of Buddhism have known
all along, that the provenance of the Dai Gohonzon is shrouded in Myth."
Chris Holte
"As long as we were part of Nichiren Shoshu we went along
with the idea that Gohonzon had to be authorized. Now that we are free,we can
"authorize" them ourselves."
Chris Holte
"NST seems worried we will have an Ikeda Sun Daigohonzon to replace
their Daigohonzon. Not a bad idea if you think about it."
Taichidee SGI member
"it is completely incorrect to continue thinking that the paper scroll
hanging in your butsudan is the source of benefit or lack thereof. It is your
FAITH ALONE (as manifested in your practice) that determines benefit."
Kathy Ruby, SGI member
"It's kind of sad that the faith of your sect is so superficial that you can't
admit that a physical mandala is a "religious icon", and can't even address the
thought that Nichiren Daishonin didn't actually inscribe the Dai Gohonzon
himself."
Jim Celer, SGI Living Buddha mag. Midwest Bureau CHIEF
Demolishing temples is not a sin.
Building them is.
Julian Stevenson, Proud SGI member
"To say praying to the Gohonzon is the ONLY POSSIBLE way to manifest one's
Buddhahood, is to apply a restriction that the Daishonin did not."
> "Can SGI members now photograph the Gohonzon - and if not, why not ?"
"I can do whatever I please. This is not a "police religion" like NS."
S. A., SGI member
" I would try, to the best of my ability, to inscribe a Gohonzon, in English if I
had to. I would draw it on a cocktail napkin if that was all I had, or
paint it on the side of a mountain!"
Marilyn Carino, SGI Member
'So, is a particular Gohonzon mandala necessary? Well, if it is, the Dasihonin
was quite unmerciful in not giving one to ALL of his followers.
...by "envisioning the ultimate reality", or "knowing that to see
one's mind is to see the Buddha" one is in the presence of the Buddha
and the Law. Which means you CAN manifest your
faith and practice, and achieve kyochi myogo,
while looking at your computer screen.'
Jim Cub
"When SGI members say "Gohonzon" it specifies the Gohonzon inscribed by
High Priests of Nichiren Shoshu. For that reason, All Gohonzons are the same"
Steve Sonoda, Toda Institute Official
Bo D. Satva
>block of camphor wood, I'd make as many copies as I dared!
Chris,
That bit of disrespect for the DaiGohonzon astounds me to no end.
-Patrick
To reply remove ths SGI
"Those who declare themselves to be my desciples must never be cowardly."
--Nichiren Daishonin
Take a mortal man
put him in control
watch him become a God
--from Symphony of Destruction by Megadeth
Richard Thieme
>
> >If I could get my hands on your
> >block of camphor wood, I'd make as many copies as I dared!
>
> Chris,
>
> That bit of disrespect for the DaiGohonzon astounds me to no end.
> -Patrick
>
Here is something to chew over. From Nittatsu's refutation of the doubts
cast against the Daigohonzon:
Allegation 8: The 9th high priest, Nichiu, carved the "Ita Mandara"
which had never been seen or
heard of. Nichi-jo, head priest of Kitayama Hommonji, a contemporary of
Nichiu, reports that, for his sin, Nichiu became a leper for having gone
against the fundamental intention of the founder of the temple (Nikko).
Rebuttal: It is a fact that Nichiu had somebody carve a wooden Gohonzon
based upon an original Gohonzon of Nichiren Daishonin. On this copied
wooden Gohonzon is Nichiu's signature. It has been housed at the
Treasure House of Taiseki-ji. But the Dai-Gohonzon and this copied
wooden Gohonzon are two different things. _Nichiu reportedly created the
above wooden Gohonzon in fear of the possible loss of the Dai-Gohonzon
through civil wars that often erupted in those days._
_______________________________________________________________________________________________
This last sentence is buried as an afterthought as many significant
things are that you will get in trouble for not stating but you don't
want to stress.
What I want to ask is not about the subsequent sentence I have clipped
(the white leprosy deal), but about Nichiu's fear of "possible loss of
the Dai-Gohonzon". What does this mean?? And what was the attitude of
the clergy of that time to this Ita Mandala. "Well lets carve one up in
case the first one gets lost." It sounds like who inscribed the thing
isn't really important doesn't it? If one is lost we have an inventory
of replacements. If this was the attitude of the priesthood then, what
really is the significance of the Dai Gohonzon? Can a high priest
inscribe another? What about Don Ross?
This post will no doubt cause a lot of flames, but well, Nittatsu said
it.
Regards,
Richard Thieme
Regards,
Richard Thieme
Rogowdoc
No flames from me:
Bo D. Satva
>Gohonzon in fear of the possible loss of the Dai-Gohonzon through civil wars
>that often erupted in those days._
Nichiu recieved the specific heritage of the law, and was protecting the purity
if the heritage.
Richard Thieme
>
> >_Nichiu reportedly created the above wooden
> >Gohonzon in fear of the possible loss of the Dai-Gohonzon through civil wars
> >that often erupted in those days._
>
> Nichiu recieved the specific heritage of the law, and was protecting the purity
> if the heritage.
>
mean if the thing is destroyed it's destroyed. You can't make the
original over again. Or can you? Do you still need the template?
Got to get back to work, but will probably chew on this one in the back
of my mind for a while.
Regards,
Richard Thieme
Bo D. Satva
>Well, that is one way of looking at it, but to me it doesn't wash. I
>mean if the thing is destroyed it's destroyed. You can't make the
>original over again.
Agreed, it is not the original, but it is still a valid object of worship
created within the Heratige of the Law.
While not tecnically being the DaiGohonzon, it would have served as a template
for future Gohonzons.
Richard Thieme
>
> Richard Theime wrote:
> >Well, that is one way of looking at it, but to me it doesn't wash. I
> >mean if the thing is destroyed it's destroyed. You can't make the
> >original over again.
>
> Agreed, it is not the original, but it is still a valid object of worship
> created within the Heratige of the Law.
>
> While not tecnically being the DaiGohonzon, it would have served as a template
> for future Gohonzons.
>
And what exactly would that mean? If you have can have a backup, is the
original plank carved by Nippo (or Nichiu, take your pick) really that
important? Is it really only from this mandala that all power emanates?
If so, what good would having a backup really be? And if not. . . well .
. .
Regards,
Richard Thieme
Bo D. Satva
>original plank carved by Nippo (or Nichiu, take your pick) really that
>important? Is it really only from this mandala that all power emanates?
>If so, what good would having a backup really be? And if not. . . well .
>. .
>
>Regards,
>
>Richard Thieme
The DaiGohonzon of the High Sanctuary is the Nichiren's enlightened life
condition, so yes it is very important.
But just because the Nichiu wooden Gohonzon was not THE DaiGohonzon, does not
make it invalid. It was created within the linage of the True Law.
I am not an expert on this subject, by any means, but this is my 2c.
Pauly
>In article <nert-3009990930260001@ip35-
>238.bur.primenet.com>,
>>
>> Everytime time I hear that erroneous "Gohonzon is within you" mantra
>> repeated over and over by SGIers, it just amazes me.
>
>It seems to me like you're hiding a secret
>Gosho passage. Something like "Forever seek this
>Gohonzon outside of you."
>
>Alan
or a Gosho where the Daishonin says "I Nichiren have inscribed *my* life in
sumi"
or the fact that we chant to a Gohonzon that is physically outside ourselves -
in a box called a Butsudan
Christopher H. Holte
wasn't so much the carving of the Dai Gohonzon, it was in claiming it
was carved at the direct request of Nichiren. And given the history of
Nichiren's follwers, it's entirely possible that the Priests didn't
know for sure, hadn't been told, and simply assumed. So actually, it
is simply an exercise in humility to ponder that the object of 20
million people's devotion may not have been created as billed. It
still has value as a "template" and as a symbol of Nichiren Shoshu,
even if it is an outright fake. Indeed given the current behavior of
Nichiren Shoshu it makes an all the more fitting symbol of them.
In article <37F5C5...@gol.com>,
Richard Thieme <rdth...@gol.com> wrote:
> Bo D. Satva wrote:
> >
> > >If I could get my hands on your
> > >block of camphor wood, I'd make as many copies as I dared!
> >
> > Chris,
> >
> > That bit of disrespect for the DaiGohonzon astounds me to no end.
> > -Patrick
> >
>
> Here is something to chew over. From Nittatsu's refutation of the
doubts
> cast against the Daigohonzon:
>
> Allegation 8: The 9th high priest, Nichiu, carved the "Ita Mandara"
> which had never been seen or
> heard of. Nichi-jo, head priest of Kitayama Hommonji, a contemporary
of
> Nichiu, reports that, for his sin, Nichiu became a leper for having
gone
> against the fundamental intention of the founder of the temple
(Nikko).
> Rebuttal: It is a fact that Nichiu had somebody carve a wooden
Gohonzon
> based upon an original Gohonzon of Nichiren Daishonin. On this copied
> wooden Gohonzon is Nichiu's signature. It has been housed at the
> Treasure House of Taiseki-ji. But the Dai-Gohonzon and this copied
> wooden Gohonzon are two different things. _Nichiu reportedly created
the
> above wooden Gohonzon in fear of the possible loss of the Dai-Gohonzon
> through civil wars that often erupted in those days._
>
________________________________________________________________________
_______________________
> This last sentence is buried as an afterthought as many significant
> things are that you will get in trouble for not stating but you don't
> want to stress.
>
> What I want to ask is not about the subsequent sentence I have clipped
> (the white leprosy deal), but about Nichiu's fear of "possible loss of
> the Dai-Gohonzon". What does this mean?? And what was the attitude of
> the clergy of that time to this Ita Mandala. "Well lets carve one up
in
> case the first one gets lost." It sounds like who inscribed the thing
> isn't really important doesn't it? If one is lost we have an inventory
> of replacements. If this was the attitude of the priesthood then, what
> really is the significance of the Dai Gohonzon? Can a high priest
> inscribe another? What about Don Ross?
>
> This post will no doubt cause a lot of flames, but well, Nittatsu said
> it.
>
> Regards,
>
> Richard Thieme
>
> Regards,
>
> Richard Thieme
Christopher H. Holte
In article <19991002145025...@ng-bg1.aol.com>,
patte...@aol.comSGI (Bo D. Satva) wrote (in response to Richard
Thiemes post of some history):
> Nichiu recieved the specific heritage of the law, and was protecting
> the purity if the heritage.
Sure he did and sure he was.
> >_Nichiu reportedly created the above wooden
> >Gohonzon in fear of the possible loss of the Dai-Gohonzon through
civil wars
> >that often erupted in those days._
>
> "Those who declare themselves to be my desciples must never be
cowardly."
> --Nichiren Daishonin
>
> Take a mortal man
> put him in control
> watch him become a God
> --from Symphony of Destruction by Megadeth
>
--
Jim Cub 3D
patte...@aol.comSGI (Bo D. Satva) writes:
>greed, it is not the original, but it is still a valid object of worship
>created within the Heratige of the Law.
>
>While not tecnically being the DaiGohonzon, it would have served as a
>template
>for future Gohonzons.
Which, according to the doctrine of "Nichiren" Shoshu, would not BE genuine
Gohonzons. remember, Pat - the Dai Gohonzon is the trunk of the tree, and it's
power flows to the other Gohonzon, which are leaves and branches. If the trunk
falls - buh bye leaves and branches.
At least, that's what "Nichiren" Shoshu has been saying. Are they changing the
doctrine?
Jim Cub 3D
>
>Bo D. Satva wrote:
>>
>> >_Nichiu reportedly created the above wooden
>> >Gohonzon in fear of the possible loss of the Dai-Gohonzon through civil
>wars
>> >that often erupted in those days._
>>
>> Nichiu recieved the specific heritage of the law, and was protecting the
>purity
>> if the heritage.
>>
>Well, that is one way of looking at it, but to me it doesn't wash. I
>mean if the thing is destroyed it's destroyed. You can't make the
>original over again. Or can you? Do you still need the template?
>
It'ds the teaching of "Nichiren" Shoshu that the mandala inscribed by Nichiren
on October 12, 1279, is the source of Nichiu's inheritance, and the validation
of all Gohonzon transcribed by any high priest. IOW, if that particular
mandala ceases to exist, it doesn't matter how many exact replicas the high
priests have made. They're done, kaput, finis. Buddhism is over.
Though, in the face of Nikken's claling that particular mandala "fake", perhaps
they're changing their doctrine.
Jim Cub 3D
(Mr T) writes:
>
>Everytime time I hear that erroneous "Gohonzon is within you" mantra
>repeated over and over by SGIers, it just amazes me.
>
Please explain why the numerous Gosho that say exactly that are "erroneous".
You can start with the obvious ones. Later, we can see that you get some of
the less famous ones which you have probably never seen.
Jim Cub 3D
>
>The Daishonin didn't say that you have a Daigohonzon - that would be a
>wretchedly stupid misunderstanding of his doctrine. He did occassionally use
>the
>word Gohonzon as a metaphor for the Buddha nature inherent in all of us that
>is
>activated when we worship the Daigohonzon or a valid, active transcription of
>it. He used the metaphor "Gohonzon" to illustrate the point that we can
>attain
>the same life enlightened life state as the Buddha being worshipped.
>
>p
And EVERY TIME he mentions the Gohonzon, he includes some variation of "never
seek it outside yourself".
He never said "the true entity of all phenomena is made of wood". He never
said "The Law, the Buddha and we common mortals ARE different and separate from
each other because the former are made of wood". In fact, he said that the
true entity is revealed in ALL phenomena, that all beings and their environment
are the entity of Myoho-renge-kyo, that there is NO separation.
There is more in the word "Gohonzon", Horatio, than was ever dreamed of by your
priests.
Bo D. Satva
-Patrick
To reply remove ths SGI
"Those who declare themselves to be my desciples must never be cowardly."
Cody in Spain
Christopher H. Holte <escribió en el mensaje de noticias
> Like I said, as in so many things, the crime, if there was a crime,
> wasn't so much the carving of the Dai Gohonzon, it was in claiming it
> was carved at the direct request of Nichiren. And given the history of
> Nichiren's follwers, it's entirely possible that the Priests didn't
> know for sure, hadn't been told, and simply assumed. So actually, it
> is simply an exercise in humility to ponder that the object of 20
> million people's devotion may not have been created as billed. It
> still has value as a "template" and as a symbol of Nichiren Shoshu,
> even if it is an outright fake. Indeed given the current behavior of
> Nichiren Shoshu it makes an all the more fitting symbol of them.
Well, Chris, the SGI has convinced you that Nichiren Shoshu is not True
Buddhism (although you say it is because of something you read some nine
years ago); that Tozan is not necessary and now you are about to swallow
that the Dai Gohonzon isn't authentic. Don't you see where all this is
leading?
Only one place: Ikedaism.
Cody
Christopher H. Holte
patte...@aol.comSGI (Bo D. Satva) writes:
>
>>Gohonzon in fear of the possible loss of the Dai-Gohonzon through civil wars
>>that often erupted in those days._
>
>Nichiu recieved the specific heritage of the law, and was protecting the
>purity if the heritage.
>
passes the "Sessen Doji Test". But to pass it off as an original article or to
make up a tale about it's creation, would be a gross violation of the precept
to "Never lie" and the admonitions of both Nikko and Nichiren. It would have
made him a traitor to the Buddha and a great slanderer. It would be a reason
for contracting leprosy and spending his last days in misery. Compounding that
with claims that his inheritance of the heritage justifies such behavior is
just awful. To lie "to protect members" or for any other reason is to betray
his heritage and sully it's purity, not to "protect it".
Chris Holte
Read the Gosho for yourself!<br>
<a href="http:\\welcome.to\ichinet">Gosho Study site</a><br>
<a href= "http:\\www.geocities.com\Athens\Ithaca\9011\Index.html">More links
and information< /a><br>
Christopher H. Holte
Christopher H. Holte
patte...@aol.comSGI (Bo D. Satva) writes:
>
>>If I could get my hands on your
>>block of camphor wood, I'd make as many copies as I dared!
>
>Chris,
>
>That bit of disrespect for the DaiGohonzon astounds me to no end.
>-Patrick
>
The disrespect is to try to keep it from the world. The disrespect is in
people who would be law devouring hungry ghosts and intentionally mangle the
teachings of the Daishonin for any secular purpose.
alan...@my-deja.com
> repeated over and over by SGIers, it just amazes me.
It seems to me like you're hiding a secret
Gosho passage. Something like "Forever seek this
Gohonzon outside of you."
Alan
...still waiting to see how temple members are
more enlightened.
Christopher H. Holte
SGI didn't convince me of Jack. I take most of what I read in the
World Tribune with more than a grain of salt. I didn't used to complain
to them, but lately I've been doing so, when they committed errors, but
I would groan in my soul. In 1991 I made a study of the materials
coming from both sides of the developing dispute, and had three
choices. My immediate inclination was to do as Carmen did and join a
"third movement", but the SGI sources didn't contain serious doctrinal
errors. SGI, surprisingly, had more truthful information, and I
realized that the fundamental cause of the dispute was doctrinal not
simply politics or "evil" behavior.
As to who has taught me, it's not SGI that is convincing me that these
things aren't true, it is the really poor quality and sloppy arguments
of the Temple. I'm not the one equating High Priests with Nichiren, or
justifying awful behavior like forgery if it is done by a High Priest.
These things are indefensible. Some SGI leaders have been convincing
me to take their pronouncements with salt, by using equally sloppy
rhetoric in place of the Gosho or truth. I am disapointed in all of
them. The thing I've been trying to hammer home is that what is needed
is the strategy of the Lotus Sutra, not the strategy of relying on
individuals, oral teachings, or distortions of what the Daishonin said
or wrote.
In article <939064296.68341@cache1>,
"Cody in Spain" <i...@jamthespamersciberia.com> wrote:
>
--
<a href="http://www.gosho.net/">Read the Gosho for yourself!</a><br>
<a href= "http://www.geocities.com/athens/ithaca/9011/">
Christopher H. Holte</a>
Reginald Carpenter
8:40am (CDT+5). Re. the statement he posted by 67th High Priest
Nittatsu Shonin, R.T. commented that, "This last sentence is buried as
an afterthought ..." I disagree with his opinion.
The sentence he posted was, "Nichiu reportedly created the above wooden
Gohonzon in fear of the possible loss of the Dai-Gohonzon through civil
war that often erupted in those days." That doesn't seem like an
"afterthought" to me. It merely follows the speaker's (Nittatsu Shonin)
information about the existence of the object/subject in question, which
was the wooden Gohonzon created or authorized by 9th High Priest Nichiu
Shonin. It gives a reason or cause for that particular transcription of
the Dai- Gohonzon into the form of another wooden Gohonzon. It was just
a special copy of the original Dai-Gohonzon which could be ed in place
of it in case of the loss and/or even possible damage to it in a war.
That's it!
The questions that R. Thieme raised in his posting can only be
speculated on concerning the Nichiren Shoshu priesthood at that time,
approx. 650 to 675 years ago. So, the most qualified people to answer
those types of questions are NST priests, not lay believers.
BTW - Buddhism is Reason, Richard. You have to "act up" and violate my
airspace in cyberspace* to get your a-s-s FLAMED! LOL. Peace! } : < {
0
<<< Stone Eagle >>>
Airborne in Cyberspace*
Christopher H. Holte
chiefst...@webtv.net (Reginald Carpenter) wrote:
> The questions that R. Thieme raised in his posting can only be
> speculated on concerning the Nichiren Shoshu priesthood at that time,
> approx. 650 to 675 years ago. So, the most qualified people to answer
> those types of questions are NST priests, not lay believers.
to speculate on the behavior of the Borgia Popes? or Pope Leo? Or the
world war behavior of Pope Paul XII? Is your statement anything but
misguided dogmatic loyalty?
>
> BTW - Buddhism is Reason, Richard. You have to "act up"
> and violate my airspace in cyberspace* to get your a-s-s FLAMED!
> LOL. Peace! } : <
>
pajamas on for you.
LOL
Alan on
>
> or a Gosho where the Daishonin says "I Nichiren have inscribed *my* life in
> sumi"
Did I forget to mention...Nichiren has the Gohonzon within also.
I'm glad you brought up this quote. My understanding has always been
that
when Nichiren inscribed Gohonzon, he wholeheartedly with his utmost
determination (ichinen) did so for the purpose of all future
generations, even throughout eternity. I don't think Nichiren Daishonin
was trying to defy his mortality and forever reside within a Gohonzon
with eyes looking out.
>
> or the fact that we chant to a Gohonzon that is physically outside ourselves -
> in a box called a Butsudan
When I first chanted, it was without a Gohonzon and I saw actual proof.
Explain that one to me.
Of course the physical Gohonzon is outside but the real essence and
power is within. When you look at a mirror is the image you or somebody
else?
Herein lies the difference between SGI and NST. SGI members see the
image as themselves and NST sees it as somebody else. But who I wonder?
Alan
Christopher H. Holte
In article <nert-30099...@ip35-238.bur.primenet.com>,
ne...@bobco.com (Mr T) wrote:
> Everytime time I hear that erroneous "Gohonzon is within you" mantra
> repeated over and over by SGIers, it just amazes me.
Here is what Nichiren has to say, will you contradict him?
On the Treasure Tower
I have read your letter with great care. I have also received your
offering to the Treasure Tower of one kan1 of coins, polished rice and
other articles. This I have respectfully reported to the Gohonzon and
to the Lotus Sutra. Please rest assured.
In your letter you ask: "What is signified by the Treasure Tower, where
Taho Buddha was seated, appearing from within the earth?" The
appearance of this bejeweled stupa [in the eleventh chapter of the
Lotus Sutra] is of great importance. In the eighth volume of his Hokke
Mongu, the Great Teacher T'ien-t'ai explained the appearance of the
Treasure Tower. He states that it had two distinct functions: to lend
credence to the preceding chapters and to pave the way for the
revelation to come. Thus, the Treasure Tower appeared in order to
verify the theoretical teaching and to introduce the essential
teaching. To put it another way, the closed Tower symbolizes the
theoretical teaching and the open Tower, the essential teaching. This
represents the two principles of object (kyo) and subject (chi), or
reality and wisdom. However, this is extremely complex, so I will not
go into further detail now. In essence, the appearance of the Treasure
Tower indicates that the three groups of Shakyamuni's disciples
attained enlightenment only when they heard the Lotus Sutra and
perceived the Treasure Tower within their own lives. Now Nichiren's
disciples are doing the same. In the Latter Day of the Law, there is no
Treasure Tower other than the figures of the men and women who embrace
the Lotus Sutra. It follows, therefore, that those who chant Nam-myoho-
renge-kyo, irrespective of social status, are themselves the Treasure
Tower and likewise they themselves are Taho Buddha. There is no
Treasure Tower other than Myoho-renge-kyo. The daimoku of the Lotus
Sutra is the Treasure Tower, that is to say, the Treasure Tower is Nam-
myoho-renge-kyo.
Now the entire body of Abutsu Shonin is composed of the five universal
elements2 of earth, water, fire, wind and ku. These five elements are
also the five characters of the daimoku. Therefore, Abutsu-bo is the
Treasure Tower itself, and the Treasure Tower is Abutsu-bo himself. No
other knowledge is purposeful. It is the Treasure Tower adorned with
seven kinds of gems - listening to the true teaching, believing it,
keeping the precept, attaining peace of mind, practicing assiduously,
unselfishly devoting oneself, and forever seeking self improvement. You
may think you offered gifts to the Treasure Tower of Taho Buddha, but
that is not so. You offered them to yourself. You, yourself, are a true
Buddha who possesses the three enlightened properties. You should chant
Nam-myoho-renge-kyo with this conviction. Then, the place wherein you
dwell and chant daimoku is the place of the Treasure Tower. The sutra
reads: "Wherever one teaches the Lotus Sutra, this Treasure Tower of
mine will rise and appear before him."3 Faith like yours is so
extremely rare that I will inscribe the Treasure Tower especially for
you. You should never transfer it to anyone but your son. You should
never show it to others unless they have steadfast faith. This is the
reason for my advent in this world.
Abutsu-bo, you deserve to be called a leader of this northern province.
Could it be that Bodhisattva Jyogyo was reborn into this world as
Abutsu-bo and visited me? How marvelous! It is beyond my power to
understand why you have such pure faith. I will leave it to Bodhisattva
Jogyo when he appears, as he has the power to know these things. I am
not saying all this without good reason. You and your wife should
worship this Treasure Tower privately. I will explain more later.
With my deep respect,
Nichiren
The thirteenth day of the third month in the ninth year of Bun'ei
IES
Christopher H. Holte <> escribió en el mensaje de noticias
>
>
> represents the two principles of object (kyo) and subject (chi), or
> reality and wisdom. However, this is extremely complex, so I will not
> go into further detail now. In essence, the appearance of the Treasure
> Tower indicates that the three groups of Shakyamuni's disciples
> attained enlightenment only when they heard the Lotus Sutra and
> perceived the Treasure Tower within their own lives. Now Nichiren's
> disciples are doing the same
Here the Daishonin says, "However, this is extremely complex, so I will not
> go into further detail now", which means there is "further detail". He
also says, "attained enlightenment only when they heard the Lotus Sutra and
> perceived the Treasure Tower within their own lives" which means that
without a valid Gohonzon you will not be able to perceive the Treasure Tower
within your life, just like without a mirror you cannot see your face. A
tarnished mirror will not do.
The fact that the Gohonzon is within you does not mean you do not need a
valid Gohonzon to be able to perceive it (Kyo and Chi or Kyochi Myogo). The
Gohonzon is the embodiment of the True Buddha and therefore to be valid it
needs the Opening of the Eyes Ceremony, something the Gakkai changed during
the time they could not issue Gohonzons and promoted chanting without one.
Now that they are issuing counterfeit Gohonzons, they find themselves, as do
you, in a contradiction of terms.
Cody
Christopher H. Holte
Faith Means Embracing
You may perhaps know that when the twenty-sixth High Priest, Nichikan
Shonin, explained how to read the title, he said, "Consider the word
for your inheritance from me." His definition was, of course, intended
to refute misinterpretations, such as "observing the object of worship
in one's mind" or "observing one's mind through the treatise on the
object of worship."
More important, he declared that the Gohonzon is "the object of worship
'for' observing one's mind," not "the object of worship as a
theoretical truth." The latter title relates to theoretical revelation
of ichinen sanzen, the surface realization gleaned from the Lotus
Sutra, or "Buddhism of the harvest." Shakyamuni's Buddhism of the
harvest means that he expounded his enlightenment as an effect, while
the Daishonin's philosophy, Buddhism of the seed, teaches the cause of
enlightenment and instructs the common mortal in his quest for the
ultimate state of life. In contrast, Shakyamuni's object of worship is
expounded in the literal interpretation of the Lotus Sutra. "The object
of worship for observing one's mind" is the actual embodiment of
ichinen sanzen, or Buddhism of the seed, which was revealed in the
depths of the Lotus Sutra.
The vital point here is that the inscription by Nichiren Daishonin of
the object of worship is the embodiment of ichinen sanzen, as he
himself revealed in order to sow the seeds of enlightenment. Shakyamuni
Buddha's object of worship is theoretical ichinen sanzen, expounded so
that others might reap the harvest of enlightenment.
This is a vast subject, actually. All religions have objects of worship
that are usually expressions or symbols of some supernatural or
external power governing life and human destiny. People have a
subservient attitude in prayer when asking for salvation, forgiveness
and compassion, or in some cases, try by subservience to satisfy those
powers and avoid their wrath. Such attitudes have contributed to
creating the special position of the clergy as intermediaries between
man and his object of worship. The pursuit of external objects
symbolizing the supernatural inevitably leads to the formation of a
strict hierarchy in the religious world. This extended to the secular
world, where the aristocracy, especially chieftains and kings, were
often said to be sanctioned by the divine grace, which led to rigid
social stratification as well. That is why so many religious groups
developed negative, inhumane ideas about human dignity and equality.
The "theoretical ichinen sanzen" revealed in Shakyamuni's Buddhism of
the harvest is completely different from those established religions.
However, since Shakyamuni expounded his enlightenment as an effect, his
object of worship became separated from common mortals still suffering
in delusion. The enlightened were inevitably regarded as special and
ideal, much removed from the lives of ordinary people. Consequently,
this type of view drives people into the same pitfalls encountered in
other religions. T'ien-t'ai's Buddhism provides a good example of this.
It was based on the Buddhism of the harvest and became a religion of
the privileged class. It was inevitable that it would appeal only to
emperors, nobles and distinguished individuals, and alienate the common
people.
In contrast, "the object of worship for observing one's mind" is the
life of ichinen sanzen, the source of enlightenment. According to
Nichikan Shonin, the "observation of one's mind" in this context is the
kanjin of the ordinary people. "The object of worship for observing
one's mind," therefore, does not exist outside our lives; it is
identical to the Mystic Law which has always dwelt in the lives of all
people. That is why the Daishonin declares that there is no distance
between the object of worship and people. A person need only chant
daimoku to the Gohonzon morning and evening to awaken in his being the
entity of the Mystic Law.
Such awakening needs sufficient wisdom, however. The Lotus Sutra tells
us that "faith is the key to wisdom." One must "use faith instead of
one's limited understanding" and "gain entrance through faith."
Nichiren Daishonin redefines "faith" in concrete terms as "embracing"
the Gohonzon. To "embrace" the Gohonzon is to observe one's own mind,
that is, to awaken to the fact that you yourself embody the Mystic Law.
This is what we call juji soku kanjin, embracing the Gohonzon is in
itself enlightenment.
Finally, I want to discuss kanjin no honzon in relation to the Three
Great Secret Laws. Three comprise the Gohonzon which is the object of
worship of the supreme teaching; chanting daimoku with firm faith in
the Gohonzon; and kaidan, the sanctuary of the supreme teaching, which
is the place where the Gohonzon resides. In essence, however, all three
are contained in the One Great Secret Law: the Gohonzon-the object of
worship for observing one's mind. The object of worship of the supreme
teaching is the life of the Buddha of absolute freedom who is in
perfect harmony with the universe. The daimoku of the supreme teaching
is Nam-myoho-renge-kyo --- the name of the original Buddha enlightened
in the three properties of life. That is why Nichiren Daishonin stated
in the Debates on the Object of Worship: "They should make the daimoku
of the Lotus Sutra the object of worship."
Similarly, dan of kaidan (literally, sanctuary for ordination) is the
Chinese translation of the Sanskrit mandala, and essentially it means
that the Gohonzon is the "sanctuary." The idea of sanctuary has its
origin in ancient India, from the altar that was set up as a place
where priests received precepts. It is said that the Four Heavenly
Kings* were positioned at the four corners of the sanctuary to ward off
demons, and a statue of the Buddha was enshrined in the center to
dignify the ceremony for priests taking vows.
*Jikokuten (Skt., Dhritarashtra), Komokuten (Virupaksha), Bishamonten
(Vaishravana) and Zochoten (Virudhaka), lords of the four heavens, said
to live halfway down the four slopes of Mt. Sumeru. Their respective
functions are to protect the world, to see through evil and punish
those who commit evil, to listen to the sutras and protect the place of
practice, and to relieve people of their sufferings. In the Darani
(26th) chapter of the Lotus Sutra, they pledged to protect those who
embrace the sutra.
Various people flanked the Buddha to indicate his status. As the
Daishonin stated in The True Object of Worship, the Buddha who preached
the Hinayana sutras was flanked by Mahakashyapa and Ananda; when
expounding provisional Mahayana and the theoretical teaching of the
Lotus Sutras he was flanked by Bodhisattva Monju and Bodhisattva Fugen.
The object of worship, to which the original Buddha is central, is
flanked by Shakyamuni Buddha and Taho Buddha, who are again flanked by
the Four Great Bodhisattvas, Unknown in the Former and Middle Days of
the Law, this object of worship is the Gohonzon which Nichiren
Daishonin established to enable all people to see the truth of their
lives. As High Priest Nittatsu has declared, this Gohonzon is the High
Sanctuary. Therefore the Dai-Gohonzon is called "the Gohonzon of the
Three Great Secret Laws" and, again, that is why all three can be
identified with the One Great Secret Law.
Clearly, then, the Gohonzon of the Three Great Secret Laws is the Dai-
Gohonzon of the High Sanctuary that Nichiren Daishonin inscribed on
October 12, I279. As he revealed in Persecutions Befalling the Buddha,
that was the purpose of the Daishonin's advent. With the inscription of
the Dai-Gohonzon, the great law was established to save all mankind
throughout all time.
Nichikan Shonin made the following statement about the greatness of the
Dai-Gohonzon:
This is the origin of all Buddhas and sutras and the place to which
they return. The blessings of the myriad of Buddhas and sutras
throughout space and time, without a single exception, all return to
this Gohonzon, which provides the seed of Buddhahood and is hidden in
the sutra, just as the tree's hundreds and thousands of branches and
leaves all return to the same root. This Gohonzon provides great and
boundless benefits. Its mystic functions are vast and profound. so if
you take faith in this Gohonzon and chant Nam-myoho-renge-kyo even for
a while, no prayer will go unanswered, no sin will remain unforgiven,
all good fortune will be bestowed, and all righteousness proven.
Let us all know only the greatest joy in being able to see the Dai-
Gohonzon, and never faltering, let us practice our faith all the more
intensely until we realize with invincible conviction that to embrace
the Gohonzon is to attain Buddhahood. Let us strive to propagate the
great law wherever it is in our power to do so, and thus achieve utmost
fulfillment in our lives. Deepening our faith this year, let us study
harder than ever before and work courageously in our activities for
shakubuku so that this year will be one of pride and confidence
______________________________________________________________
<note> Ikeda praises the Dai Gohonzon in this lecture, but he also
generally praises faith in the Gohonzon. What a great joy it is to
believe in the Gohonzon. No one can take away this faith, and no one
can deny the joy that comes from embracing the Gohonzon. That faith
and joy cannot be counterfeited or accused of being counterfeit. It
resides in the hearts of those who believe in the Gohonzon.
Christopher H. Holte
"IES" <i...@jamthespamciberia.com> wrote:
> without a valid Gohonzon you will not be able to perceive the
> Treasure Tower within your life, just like without a mirror
> you cannot see your face. A tarnished mirror will not do.
Except you have it backwards, the mirror is our lives, and the Gohonzon
is never tarnished but always clear. We polish our lives not the
Gohonzon.
>
> The fact that the Gohonzon is within you does not mean you do not
> need a valid Gohonzon to be able to perceive it (Kyo and Chi or
> Kyochi Myogo). The Gohonzon is the embodiment of the True Buddha
> and therefore to be valid it needs the Opening of the Eyes
> Ceremony, something the Gakkai changed during the time they
> could not issue Gohonzons and promoted chanting without one.
> Now that they are issuing counterfeit Gohonzons, they find
> themselves, as do you, in a contradiction of terms.
It does not follow that because the Gohonzon is the embodiment of the
true Buddha that it needs an eye opening ceremony from a priest to be
valid. That is a faulty argument from a logical sense. It was faulty
when the Gakkai made it. Because the Treasure Tower is within,
embracing the Gohonzon is what "opens it's eyes".
Ikeda lectures on the Kanjin No Honzon sho, and in that lecture he says:
"In contrast, "the object of worship for observing one's mind" is the
life of ichinen sanzen, the source of enlightenment. According to
Nichikan Shonin, the "observation of one's mind" in this context is the
kanjin of the ordinary people. "The object of worship for observing
one's mind," therefore, does not exist outside our lives; it is
identical to the Mystic Law which has always dwelt in the lives of all
people. That is why the Daishonin declares that there is no distance
between the object of worship and people. A person need only chant
daimoku to the Gohonzon morning and evening to awaken in his being the
entity of the Mystic Law."
"Such awakening needs sufficient wisdom, however. The Lotus Sutra tells
us that "faith is the key to wisdom." One must "use faith instead of
one's limited understanding" and "gain entrance through faith."
Nichiren Daishonin redefines "faith" in concrete terms as "embracing"
the Gohonzon. To "embrace" the Gohonzon is to observe one's own mind,
that is, to awaken to the fact that you yourself embody the Mystic Law.
This is what we call juji soku kanjin, embracing the Gohonzon is in
itself enlightenment."
One gains entrance through faith, in essence it is our faith in the
Gohonzon that "opens it's eyes", and opens our own lives of Buddhahood
within. Even without a Gohonzon one can achieve benefit by visualizing
the Gohonzon within. Your priests have a term for Daimoku chanted that
way. People who see the Gohonzon as outside themselves, those are the
ones whose lives are closed to their own potential.
Cody in Spain
Christopher H. Holte <> escribió en el mensaje de noticias
>Cody wrote:
> > without a valid Gohonzon you will not be able to perceive the
> > Treasure Tower within your life, just like without a mirror
> > you cannot see your face. A tarnished mirror will not do.
>
> Except you have it backwards, the mirror is our lives, and the Gohonzon
> is never tarnished but always clear. We polish our lives not the
> Gohonzon.
No, you misunderstood. If you want to see your face, you need a mirror that
you can see your face in. If you want to see your life, you need a Gohonzon
that you can see your life in. I am not saying one should polish anything in
the above statement, Chris.
> > The fact that the Gohonzon is within you does not mean you do not
> > need a valid Gohonzon to be able to perceive it (Kyo and Chi or
> > Kyochi Myogo). The Gohonzon is the embodiment of the True Buddha
> > and therefore to be valid it needs the Opening of the Eyes
> > Ceremony, something the Gakkai changed during the time they
> > could not issue Gohonzons and promoted chanting without one.
> > Now that they are issuing counterfeit Gohonzons, they find
> > themselves, as do you, in a contradiction of terms.
>
> It does not follow that because the Gohonzon is the embodiment of the
> true Buddha that it needs an eye opening ceremony from a priest to be
> valid. That is a faulty argument from a logical sense. It was faulty
> when the Gakkai made it. Because the Treasure Tower is within,
> embracing the Gohonzon is what "opens it's eyes".
> Ikeda lectures on the Kanjin No Honzon sho, and in that lecture he says:
No, it follows that you have no idea about the Eye Opening Ceremony. None.
You are not a priest regardless of what the Domei Ikeda lackeys say or what
Ikeda says. You are backpedaling the same way the Gakkai is.
First, well, now that we can't issue Gohonzons, they really aren't necessary
because the Gohonzon is within you. Second, oops, now we are going to issue
these phony ones and you should turn in your valid ones (gotta keep control
of y'all) and YOU, AS A PRIEST NOW, can Open the Eyes yourself. Now go out
and "shakubuku" some new people to receive these phony Gohonzons so the
Little Fat Man can get fatter, more powerful, take over the politics of
Japan and then the world.
Meanwhile the High Priest is doing his best to preserve True Buddhism and
you are spitting in his face.
And that you are falling for the Little Fat Man's scam is the biggest pity,
Chris.
>>>>>>>>>Little Fat Man's diatribe with no meaning snipped<<<<<<<<<<
Cody
Rogowdoc
Year of this lecture please?
Mark
Will Kallander
Gosho", Part one of the "True Object of Worship" section ==>
http://www.gosho.net/Soka_Gakkai/Study/SelLectGosho/Object01.htm
--Will
Rogowdoc <rogo...@aol.com> wrote...
| Year of this lecture please?
|
| Mark
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