Blowing the doors to Palm - Java programming for Tungsten handhelds
asj
which means that Java programmers can now write directly to these
handhelds (with no need to download the jvm - an annoying and
debilitating thing when you want to easily reach end-users).
Because of IBM and Palm's new alliance to extend and solidify Palm's
dominance in the enterprise, it is essential for developers (whether
java, palm, or other) to see what opportunities might be lurking behind
these events.
For Java programmers, Why write to Palms?
http://www.blueboard.com/j2me/stats.htm#palm
http://www.blueboard.com/j2me/why.htm#pda
For Palm programmers, what's Java's J2ME? Why should I write in J2ME?
http://www.blueboard.com/j2me/intro.htm
http://www.blueboard.com/j2me/why.htm
today's headlines:
http://techupdate.zdnet.com/techupdate/stories/main/0,14179,2914374,00.html
--------------------------------------------------------
In one of the first moves to demonstrate that Palm Solutions Group (the
hardware guys) and operating-system spinout PalmSource (the software
guys) are two autonomous companies, Palm Solutions Group (PSG) has
announced that it will be making a Java Virtual Machine (JVM) available
for all of its Tungsten handheld offerings: the Bluetooth-enabled "T,"
the wireless wide area network-enabled "W," and the Wi-Fi enabled "C."
The change in strategy also affects the T2, a successor to the Tungsten
T that was launched last week.
The reason this announcement demonstrates the autonomy between the two
formerly married organizations is that PalmSource is so far content to
live without Java. For Palm users, however, including a JVM means access
to more enterprise, and consumer, applications.
PalmSourceCEO David Nagel has repeatedly insisted that the Palm OS
ecosystem can continue to thrive and grow without including a JVM as a
standard component.
In a recent interview, Nagel told me he had no problem with providing
both development environments --- Palm OS and Java --- to developers.
"But Sun is very difficult to work with," said Nagel. "They do not make
it easy. We were one of the early members of the JCP [Java Community
Process]. We tried to build a PDA profile, sort of a Java 2 Micro
Edition (the mobile JVM) grown up a little bit. But we decided that was
sort of a bifurcation, and that it created more problems than it solved.
Sun didn't like it. They wouldn't support it, so we decided that we
weren't going to go through with it and that we would leave J2ME be." In
light of that, Nagel is content with the 19,000 applications he says are
available for the Palm OS (up from 12,500 from last year) and the
280,000 developers.
But PSG director of strategic alliances Chris Morgan wasn't satisfied.
In June, he struck a deal with IBM to include that company's version of
J2ME, known as WebSphere Micro Edition (WME, formerly known as "J9"), in
all Tungstens moving forward. The move means that PSG now gets to tap
into both the Palm OS and Java ecosystems, the latter weighing in at 3
million developers and growing. According to Morgan, "The way I look at
is, we now have 3,280,000 developers."
To the extent that developers are one of the three lynchpins (in
addition to applications and users/installations) to most ecosystems in
our industry, the Tungsten ecosystem appears to have gotten a
significant boost. For PSG, this is a smart move, particularly because
the Tungstens haven't been doing as well as the company had originally
hoped they would..
This is good news for Java developers, too. Prior to the announcement,
Java developers had limited access to the Palm market. If they wanted
their applications to run on the Palm OS, their only choice was to
redevelop their applications natively for the Palm platform, or to get
their target customers to buy, install, and configure a JVM from a third
party like Insignia. With this announcement, the "anywhere" part of the
Java promise --- the ability to write software once and deploy it
anywhere --- is closer to reality. The target for Java developers will
grow by the number of Tungstens that are in the market.
RaBi
"asj" <k...@xx.com> wrote in message news:3F26A1...@xx.com...
> All Palm Tungstens will now ship with the JVM (Java Virtual Machine),
> which means that Java programmers can now write directly to these
> handhelds (with no need to download the jvm - an annoying and
> debilitating thing when you want to easily reach end-users).
> light of that, Nagel is content with the 19,000 applications he says are
> available for the Palm OS (up from 12,500 from last year) and the
> 280,000 developers.
Interesting numbers: How many of these developers are really active? Based
on the number of applications I guess around 10% (incldugin corporate and
hobby developers)
> anywhere --- is closer to reality. The target for Java developers will
> grow by the number of Tungstens that are in the market.
Yet the users of the many non-Tungsten PalmOS devices are out of reach. So
the market for Java on Palm is really limited outside of controlled
corporate environments.
I think it requires at least all Palm devices and Sonys to build a solid
market.
Nevertheless I consider this a good news - I am a Java guy and have been
waiting for this
#rb
asj
> > light of that, Nagel is content with the 19,000 applications he says are
> > available for the Palm OS (up from 12,500 from last year) and the
> > 280,000 developers.
> Interesting numbers: How many of these developers are really active? Based
> on the number of applications I guess around 10% (incldugin corporate and
> hobby developers)
yep, you are right...not to mention the fact that most of those
developers are enterprise J2EE developers (like myself).
also, the intent of JVM on tungsten is indeed for corporate development.
i was simply pointing out this might be a new opportunity...it's your
call whether you want to take a look.
> Yet the users of the many non-Tungsten PalmOS devices are out of reach. So
> the market for Java on Palm is really limited outside of controlled
> corporate environments.
> I think it requires at least all Palm devices and Sonys to build a solid
> market.
take a look at J2ME...the market for smartphones in the consumer field
is actually several times larger than that of handhelds and climbing
fast (nearly 100 million java-enabled phones since last year)....J2ME
will allow you to write to many smartphones AND now palm tungstens and
other handhelds....
username
removed microsoft.public.pocketpc from the crosspostinglist, as this posting
is irrelevant to that newsgroup
Brandon Blackmoor
>
> Nevertheless I consider this a good news - I
> am a Java guy and have been waiting for this
Waiting for the announcement, or waiting for Palm to follow through
with it? Palm has made that same announcement almost word for word at
every JavaOne conference since the late 1990's.
I'm not holding my breath.
asj
you don't need to....it'll be shipping by fall (unlike before, when
announced shipping dates were nebulous at best).......this time, (1)
it's IBM that made the joint announcement; (2) it's not Palm the
handheld maker that is doing this, but the now-separate entity
PalmSource; (3) PalmSource NEEDS IBM to gain more traction in the
enterprise...you could say, Palm needs IBM (and Java) more than IBM
needs Palm....
William P.N. Smith
June, he struck a deal with IBM to include that company's version of
J2ME, known as WebSphere Micro Edition (WME, formerly known as "J9"),
Is Java very difficult, compared to C, Perl, etc?
--
William Smith wp...@compusmiths.com N1...@amsat.org
ComputerSmiths Consulting, Inc. www.compusmiths.com
asj
>
> Where would one find info on Java in general and this particular "In
> June, he struck a deal with IBM to include that company's version of
> J2ME, known as WebSphere Micro Edition (WME, formerly known as "J9"),
> in all Tungstens moving forward." version of it?
>
> Is Java very difficult, compared to C, Perl, etc?
java is comparable to the "3Cs" (c/c#/c++) in difficulty.
because the java platform is pervasive in servers and clients, by
learning java, you will be able to extend your reach from servers
(including mainframes), all the way down to smartphones, smartcards, and
other small devices.
it is divided into 3 areas:
J2EE (Java 2 Enterprise Edition) - for programming on servers
J2SE (Java 2 Standard Edition) - standard programming classes
J2ME (Java 2 MicroEdition) - for programming wireless and other small
devices.
we are concerned here with j2me.
Here's some tips on how to start on J2ME:
http://www.blueboard.com/j2me/start.htm
Site that focuses on current news and developer articles:
http://www.blueboard.com/j2me/
THE java site (run by Sun Microsystems):
http://java.sun.com/
J2ME:
http://java.sun.com/j2me/
IBM's Websphere Microedition toolsets:
http://www-3.ibm.com/software/wireless/wsdd/
If you want to run just the standard MIDP, you will need to download the
MIDP toolkit:
http://java.sun.com/products/j2mewtoolkit/download-2_0.html
Ananda Sim
Thanks for that overview and references. Whilst we wait for J2ME for
PocketPC (I assume there is none), is it worth bothering playing with
alternatives like EWE?
Ananda
"asj" <k...@xx.com> wrote in message news:3F272D...@xx.com...
dennis m parrott
the object model in Java is a little bit simpler than in C++.
Frankly, Java reminds me of a cross between Pascal or Modula and C with some
object-related sugar sprinkled on liberally.
dennis parrott
"William P.N. Smith" <wp...@compusmiths.com> wrote in message
news:jf6eivkjquilq2dvp...@4ax.com...
Person
SuperWaba!
SuperWaba!
SuperWaba!
A VM for Java.
??? where you can dl. Chck Google.
Andreas Rueckert
--<snip>--
>> Yet the users of the many non-Tungsten PalmOS devices are out of reach. So
>> the market for Java on Palm is really limited outside of controlled
>> corporate environments.
>> I think it requires at least all Palm devices and Sonys to build a solid
>> market.
>
>
>take a look at J2ME...the market for smartphones in the consumer field
>is actually several times larger than that of handhelds and climbing
>fast (nearly 100 million java-enabled phones since last year)....J2ME
>will allow you to write to many smartphones AND now palm tungstens and
>other handhelds....
And you can do it with one codebase. I'm from the Java-Chess team
( http://www.java-chess.de ) and it took me less than 2 hrs to run the
J2ME version on POSE (emulating a 2MB(!) Palm M100). Most of this time
was spent adding the pointing device to our control layer. And those M100
are really cheap on eBay, so I might get me one just for fun.
Now if my midp4palm version would support PNG transparency it would look
somewhat better...
Ciao,
Andreas
RaBi
news:rvHVa.221196$BA.57...@twister.columbus.rr.com...
> If you've programmed a bit in C++, Java isn't any stretch... Some feel
that
> the object model in Java is a little bit simpler than in C++.
Learning the Java language takes a couple of hours - a couple of days if you
want to know the details like static intializers, bit shifting, inner
classes, ...
Easy.
The hard part is in the APIs. There are so many APIs available that you can
learn Java 24/7 for the next year. And then start all over again because
most APIs have evolved in the meantime. Just think about all the nice
acronyms AWT, Swing, EJB, JDO, RMI, JavaMail, JMS, Servlets, JSP, JDBC, etc,
etc
Learning the Java language is like learning all characters between A and Z:
Very easy but without knowing words, grammatics and all that stuff that's
worth nothing...
I'm not discouraging you from learning Java but be prepared to learn a lot.
I've been working full time in Java for 6 years now and still busy
learning...
#rb
RaBi
"Brandon Blackmoor" <bblac...@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:13vdivk7a55c01ics...@4ax.com...
> Waiting for the announcement, or waiting for Palm to follow through
> with it? Palm has made that same announcement almost word for word at
> every JavaOne conference since the late 1990's.
us Java on it. Must have been '98 or '99.
But this time I think it's different. Big blue is much more reliable than
Sun when announcing that sort of stuff.
#rb
asj
>
> Hi
>
> Thanks for that overview and references. Whilst we wait for J2ME for
> PocketPC (I assume there is none), is it worth bothering playing with
> alternatives like EWE?
>
> Ananda
>
there are actually JVMs for windows handhelds, eg.:
http://www.blueboard.com/j2me/notes/2002_7_26.htm
however, there is some concern that sun has decided not to move forward
with anything for the latest windows ce, nor does there seem to be
anyone taking the ball in their stead.
you might try going to the List of emulators/kits/sdks on the homepage
of the site.
_.-=<[ { E v E r E a d y } ]>=-._
I don't know about everyone else but in general, Java is easy to work with
because the documentation is easier to read and work with and there are
plenty of tutorials out there. Perl is easy because it doesn't deal with
user interface or any GUI components.
If you're working with just console applications, its the coolest thing
since Coca Cola, or Pepsi, or whatever your taste might be.
Take a look at this simple application, for instance:
class SimpleApp {
System.out.println("Dude, this is neat!");
}
Reading input from the user may take a few more lines than it does in C, but
once you get used to it, its more-or-less the same for any other kind of
input. Check this out:
import java.io.*;
public class BuffRead {
public static void main (String args[]) throws IOException {
InputStreamReader UserInput = new InputStreamReader(System.in);
BufferedReader InputSrc = new BufferedReader(UserInput);
String MyString = InputSrc.readLine();
System.out.println(MyString);
}
}
Remember the button that I asked you never to push? Well push that now and
get yourself a copy of JBuilder or SunForte to start development in Java,
though I prefer to stay with Notepad, Javac and Java with my MS-DOS Command
Prompt.
Now, you know too much so I'll have to flash you - "You did not see a man
dressed in black and you know nothing about Java. However, you'll soon
develop into a Java programmer and will lead a happy life henceforth."
Stay cool and don't step on the roaches.
Regards,
NiCk EvErEady
"William P.N. Smith" <wp...@compusmiths.com> wrote in message
news:jf6eivkjquilq2dvp...@4ax.com...
Thomas Maslen
> [...] Whilst we wait for J2ME for PocketPC (I assume there is none) [...]
As far as I know, there are no J2ME-on-PocketPC implementations from *Sun*
(the latest public stuff from them was PersonalJava 1.1.3 for WinCE, I think),
but other Java vendors certainly have J2ME implementations for PocketPC.
For instance, this:
>> IBM's Websphere Microedition toolsets:
>> http://www-3.ibm.com/software/wireless/wsdd/
includes J2ME CLDC, MIDP, CDC, Foundation and Personal Basis, and has both
runtimes and remote debugging support for PocketPC.
(The evaluation version of the IDE and runtimes is a time-limited free
download; non-eval runtimes are US$5.99 per device via Handango; the
non-eval IDE probably costs rather more serious money).
Thomas Maslen
mas...@pobox.com
RaBi
> class SimpleApp {
> System.out.println("Dude, this is neat!");
> }
wow... that's cool. Doesn't even compile!
asj
LOL. perhaps actually including a main method (which is executed first
when an app is called) would help, as in:
public class SimpleApp {
public static void main (String [] args)
{
System.out.println("hello.");
}
}
username
"asj" <k...@xx.com> wrote in message news:3F27ED...@xx.com...
> Ananda Sim wrote:
> >
> > Hi
> >
> > Thanks for that overview and references. Whilst we wait for J2ME for
> > PocketPC (I assume there is none), is it worth bothering playing with
> > alternatives like EWE?
> >
> > Ananda
> >
>
> there are actually JVMs for windows handhelds, eg.:
> http://www.blueboard.com/j2me/notes/2002_7_26.htm
>
> however, there is some concern that sun has decided not to move forward
> with anything for the latest windows ce, nor does there seem to be
> anyone taking the ball in their stead.
well thats bad news for java. Add to it that within 2 years, 30% of all new
cars come equipped with win ce devices ....
username
"asj" <k...@xx.com> wrote in message news:3F26A1...@xx.com...
> All Palm Tungstens will now ship with the JVM (Java Virtual Machine),
> which means that Java programmers can now write directly to these
> handhelds (with no need to download the jvm - an annoying and
> debilitating thing when you want to easily reach end-users).
yawn
asj
> well thats bad news for java. Add to it that within 2 years, 30% of all new
> cars come equipped with win ce devices ....
not particularly, since there will be probably be MORE cars coming out
using J2ME, which has GM and others behind it.
note that j2me will run on top of wince (or any other os like linux or
palm) if needed, OR it may run by itself as the OS - so by knowing java
you can also program on top of whatever OS is used....it's the best of
any world.
also, wince seems to be stumbling around:
for example, in the handheld market in europe:
"In the European market from Q2 2002 to Q2 2003, Palm and Sony (both
Palm OS) showed significant year-on-year growth of 45 per cent and 64
per cent, respectively. HP's shipments (Windows CE) grew too, by 2%, but
not enough to prevent its market share TUMBLING from 36% to 25%."
in the case of handheld phones, smartcards, and SIM cards for handsets,
it's not even close, with J2ME crushing wince in terms of deployment and
commercial success (not vaporware).
http://www.blueboard.com/j2me/why.htm
Brandon Blackmoor
>> move forward with anything for the latest windows ce
>
WinCE is crap. Why bother supporting it?
> Add to it that within 2 years, 30% of all new
> cars come equipped with win ce devices ....
That'll last until auto manufacturers learn what computer manufacturers
already know. People grudgingly accept that their computer crash
periodically. They won't be so patient when their car's expensive
WinCE-based dashboard is as unreliable as their AOL account.
Roedy Green
wrote or quoted :
>I think it requires at least all Palm devices and Sonys to build a solid
>market.
Palm apps don't have to be complex to be valuable. Canadian doctors
pay for example for a little app that just lists the prices of various
medications in US dollars. It does not even convert to Canadian for
them automatically much less give them much lower Canadian prices.
--
Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
Coaching, problem solving, economical contract programming.
See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jgloss.html for The Java Glossary.
asj
>
> On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 20:30:34 +0200, "RaBi" <eg...@mirdochegal.com>
> wrote or quoted :
>
> >I think it requires at least all Palm devices and Sonys to build a solid
> >market.
>
> Palm apps don't have to be complex to be valuable. Canadian doctors
> pay for example for a little app that just lists the prices of various
> medications in US dollars. It does not even convert to Canadian for
> them automatically much less give them much lower Canadian prices.
>
very good point (although i'm not sure how it relates to what he just
said)...a lot of people have the mistaken notion that to be successful,
an app has to do everything but wash the kitchen sink, and it has to do
it in color. in fact, there are large numbers of small niches that could
be profitably exploited if researched and marketed correctly.
Eric Lindsay's spam trap
wrote:
>well thats bad news for java. Add to it that within 2 years, 30% of all new
>cars come equipped with win ce devices ....
Hmm, adding a crash prone OS to a crash prone transportation
system. Great!
As a point of interest, what handy functions is this expected to
add?
--
Eric Lindsay http://www.ericlindsay.com/guff
Airlie Beach Qld Australia - Great Barrier Reef entry
Psion & Epoc site http://www.ericlindsay.com/epoc
Arthur Hagen
"Eric Lindsay's spam trap" <spam...@ericlindsay.com> wrote in message
news:3f28ff8a...@news.bigpond.com...
> On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 21:43:02 +0200, "username" <e-mail@adress>
> wrote:
>
> >well thats bad news for java. Add to it that within 2 years, 30% of all
new
> >cars come equipped with win ce devices ....
>
> Hmm, adding a crash prone OS to a crash prone transportation
> system. Great!
>
> As a point of interest, what handy functions is this expected to
> add?
Let me venture a guess: DRM, making it absolutely impossible for a garage
to look at your car without buying a special per-model $30000 electronic kit
and paying a $5000 per year fee per car model.
Net result: Customers must pay more or go to the dealership for service and
repairs, and lots of smaller garages must close down, giving the dealerships
even more service.
As for java, I doubt that's a wise choice in situations where microseconds
count. I hope they don't use it for things like ABS braking, suspension
assist or airbag release. Else the car might throw more than a runtime
exception.
Regards,
--
*Art
RaBi
BTW: I just tried IBM's JVM. Doesn't run on my Zire71 but according to spec
it's not supposed to be ready for PalmOS 5. Runs without probs on my Palm V
with OS3.5 but a small HelloWorld takes 14 sec to show up. Still Tungstens
are much faster so we'll see.
#rb
asj
> As for java, I doubt that's a wise choice in situations where microseconds
> count. I hope they don't use it for things like ABS braking, suspension
> assist or airbag release. Else the car might throw more than a runtime
> exception.
believe it or not, real time java is starting to compete (and win)
against ADA and C alternatives in real world situations.
John D.
> username wrote:
> > "asj" <k...@xx.com> wrote in message news:3F27ED...@xx.com...
> >> however, there is some concern that sun has decided not to
> >> move forward with anything for the latest windows ce
> >
> > well thats bad news for java.
>
> WinCE is crap. Why bother supporting it?
Well, the other 2 (Palm and Symbian) are also crap, but WinCE has
the best development tools between these 3.
username
"Brandon Blackmoor" <bblac...@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:bg99ku$m5pud$1...@ID-97660.news.uni-berlin.de...
> > "asj" <k...@xx.com> wrote in message news:3F27ED...@xx.com...
> >> however, there is some concern that sun has decided not to
> >> move forward with anything for the latest windows ce
> >
> > well thats bad news for java.
>
> WinCE is crap. Why bother supporting it?
>
> > Add to it that within 2 years, 30% of all new
> > cars come equipped with win ce devices ....
>
> That'll last until auto manufacturers learn what computer manufacturers
> already know. People grudgingly accept that their computer crash
> periodically.
sounds like you never tried java apps.... they are very platform specific
(or better put: JVM specific) and buggy!
asj
> sounds like you never tried java apps.... they are very platform specific
> (or better put: JVM specific) and buggy!
sounds like you've never actually used java a lot (other than playing
with applets perhaps).
eBay is building its ENTIRE infrastructure on J2EE (it dumped
microsoft's .NET in favor of a more RPBUST solution):
* this infrastructure is allegedly architected to be able to server 1
BILLION page views a day - it now runs 400 MILLION transaction a day or
75% of eBay
Java powers a major proportion of all the high end corporate
infrastruture. for example, just looking at one application server,
IBM's Java app server Websphere:
35,000 global customers use WebSphere:
65% of the Fortune 500 companies
80% of the top US healthcare companies
75% of commercial banks worldwide
90% of the top commercial banks in the US
67% of the world's largest banks use IBM messaging servers
15 of the top Wall Street brokerage firms
7 of the 8 largest US telecommunications companies
mix in all the other commercial java application servers (Oracle's,
SUN's, BEA's), as well as the open source application servers (JBOSS,
tomcat, etc) and you get the picture.
username
"asj" <k...@xx.com> wrote in message news:3F2970...@xx.com...
> username wrote:
> > sounds like you never tried java apps.... they are very platform
specific
> > (or better put: JVM specific) and buggy!
>
>
> sounds like you've never actually used java a lot (other than playing
> with applets perhaps).
you are SO wrong about that .....
> eBay is building its ENTIRE infrastructure on J2EE (it dumped
> microsoft's .NET in favor of a more RPBUST solution):
you say that serverside J2EE is why java will win on a handheld?
my handheld doesnot have to do 400 million transactions a day.....
same applies to ordinary PC users: they run windows and not websphere!
luke
> there are actually JVMs for windows handhelds, eg.:
> http://www.blueboard.com/j2me/notes/2002_7_26.htm
>
> however, there is some concern that sun has decided not to move forward
> with anything for the latest windows ce, nor does there seem to be
> anyone taking the ball in their stead.
Sun has wisely (IMO) decided that the Pocket PC market is not worth
the trouble of getting screwed by the owner of the OS. Obviously,
others have decided the same since no one seems to be anxious to jump
in.
The good thing about this is that it looks like Palm is starting to
squeeze Pocket PC out of most of the enterprise market, and this entry
of IBM into the Palm alliance will only accelerate Palm adoption in
corporations. I believe the latest figures show Palm with more than
50% of the enterprise market and Windows at around 30%+, with Palm
gaining more traction faster after it conveniently forgot about this
market in the earlier years, when it concentrated on the consumer
market.
asj
> you say that serverside J2EE is why java will win on a handheld?
> my handheld doesnot have to do 400 million transactions a day.....
> same applies to ordinary PC users: they run windows and not websphere!
dude, your comment was about Java in general...you obviously have no
wide experience with java since you're recycling old criticisms that
were leveled against desktop browser applets in the late 1990s. it's the
21st century and java has pertty much become the de facto standard for
writing applications for many small devices such as smart cards,
handsets, set tops (although that is still an ongoing battle), and
others. java is also widely considered to be the best solution for
server side development, because it is robust, open, scalable, and
cross-platform.
and, no, your handheld does not need to serve 1 billion page views a
day, but isn't it nice to know that the technology and platform that CAN
be architected to do 400 million and more transactions a day runs in
your handheld?
new java developers from palm and pocket pc developers who will help
architect the same robust solutions in handhelds that we have come to
expect elsewhere are ALWAYS welcome. the job market for java is much
stronger than most others, and face it, would you rather continue to
write to a proprietary solution that shackles you to a particular os, or
develop on an open, standards-based platform that will run on the widest
number of devices?
username
"asj" <k...@xx.com> wrote in message news:3F2981...@xx.com...
> username wrote:
> > you say that serverside J2EE is why java will win on a handheld?
> > my handheld doesnot have to do 400 million transactions a day.....
> > same applies to ordinary PC users: they run windows and not websphere!
>
> dude, your comment was about Java in general...you obviously have no
> wide experience with java since you're recycling old criticisms that
> were leveled against desktop browser applets in the late 1990s. it's the
> 21st century and java has pertty much become the de facto standard for
> writing applications for many small devices such as smart cards,
> handsets, set tops (although that is still an ongoing battle), and
> others. java is also widely considered to be the best solution for
> server side development, because it is robust, open, scalable, and
> cross-platform.
if that is true, then why are you flooding the groups with your java
advocacy?
> and, no, your handheld does not need to serve 1 billion page views a
> day, but isn't it nice to know that the technology and platform that CAN
> be architected to do 400 million and more transactions a day runs in
> your handheld?
I love java, but no, when considering software for my handheld, I do not
care about mainframe scalability
> new java developers from palm and pocket pc developers who will help
> architect the same robust solutions in handhelds that we have come to
> expect elsewhere are ALWAYS welcome. the job market for java is much
> stronger than most others, and face it, would you rather continue to
> write to a proprietary solution that shackles you to a particular os, or
> develop on an open, standards-based platform that will run on the widest
> number of devices?
I am only interested in delivering functionality to my customers.
username
"Brandon Blackmoor" <bblac...@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:bg99ku$m5pud$1...@ID-97660.news.uni-berlin.de...
> > "asj" <k...@xx.com> wrote in message news:3F27ED...@xx.com...
> >> however, there is some concern that sun has decided not to
> >> move forward with anything for the latest windows ce
> >
> > well thats bad news for java.
>
> WinCE is crap. Why bother supporting it?
because your users are using it???
asj
> if that is true, then why are you flooding the groups with your java
> advocacy?
so you think that people should not advocate solution that they think
are GOOD?
or perhaps you wish that people should advocate BAD solutions?
>
> > and, no, your handheld does not need to serve 1 billion page views a
> > day, but isn't it nice to know that the technology and platform that CAN
> > be architected to do 400 million and more transactions a day runs in
> > your handheld?
>
> I love java, but no, when considering software for my handheld, I do not
> care about mainframe scalability
well, that's surprising...i would love it if my handheld apps were as
robust and scalable as mainframe apps...that way, as the capabilities of
the handheld grew, the apps would in turn be able to meet the increased
demands placed on it.
>
> > new java developers from palm and pocket pc developers who will help
> > architect the same robust solutions in handhelds that we have come to
> > expect elsewhere are ALWAYS welcome. the job market for java is much
> > stronger than most others, and face it, would you rather continue to
> > write to a proprietary solution that shackles you to a particular os, or
> > develop on an open, standards-based platform that will run on the widest
> > number of devices?
>
> I am only interested in delivering functionality to my customers.
ahhhh!!!! of course! but giving them a long term solution to their
problems would obviously be preferable to screwing them sometime along
the line.
for example, writing a client application using a proprietary language
that "faded" away or was made into a "legacy" technology would certainly
cause some problems down the road if the client wanted some upgrades
done...perhaps there would not be any available programmers to do the
modifications, or perhaps the few available would be very
expensive...then the customer would have to recreate the wheel, as it
were, and create a brand new app that did almost the same thing!
or what happens if the customer upgrades his hardware or system in
future and needs to port the application over to the new system? what if
that proprietary app could NOT be ported over? with a standards based,
cross-platform, widely-used technology like java, the chances are it
would not cause that much headaches moving the app over to the new
system.
John D.
> username wrote:
>
> > I am only interested in delivering functionality to my customers.
>
> ahhhh!!!! of course! but giving them a long term solution to their
> problems would obviously be preferable to screwing them sometime along
> the line.
>
> for example, writing a client application using a proprietary language
> that "faded" away or was made into a "legacy" technology would certainly
> cause some problems down the road if the client wanted some upgrades
> done...perhaps there would not be any available programmers to do the
> modifications, or perhaps the few available would be very
> expensive...then the customer would have to recreate the wheel, as it
> were, and create a brand new app that did almost the same thing!
>
> or what happens if the customer upgrades his hardware or system in
> future and needs to port the application over to the new system? what if
> that proprietary app could NOT be ported over? with a standards based,
> cross-platform, widely-used technology like java, the chances are it
> would not cause that much headaches moving the app over to the new
> system.
From that I conclude that "username" probably makes more money
than "asj". :) Software is all about functionality. Faster,
full-featured software always sells better that portable but
feature-limited counterpart. Nobody buys applications with
a thought that it will need to be ported sometime in the future.
If you are speaking of custom software then people buy
hardware+software solution. In this combination they want
software to get the most out of the hardware. If the hardware
is specialized then software will likely be non-portable.
Better use of underlying hardware also makes software more
efficient. That means better return on investment. That
means they can shorten the upgrade cycle and keep up
with the technology better.
Besides, what makes you think that current Java API won't fade away
or become obsolete 10 year from now?
Tim Tyler
: "asj" <k...@xx.com> wrote in message news:3F2970...@xx.com...
:> eBay is building its ENTIRE infrastructure on J2EE (it dumped
:> microsoft's .NET in favor of a more RPBUST solution):
: you say that serverside J2EE is why java will win on a handheld?
I must have missed that bit. Where did he say that?
--
__________
|im |yler http://timtyler.org/ t...@tt1.org
Brandon Blackmoor
> asj wrote:
>> cross-platform, widely-used technology like java, the
>> chances are it would not cause that much headaches moving
>> the app over to the new system.
>
> From that I conclude that "username" probably makes more
> money than "asj". :)
From that I conclude that you don't work with complex server-side
applications.
asj
>
> From that I conclude that "username" probably makes more money
> than "asj". :) Software is all about functionality. Faster,
> full-featured software always sells better that portable but
> feature-limited counterpart. Nobody buys applications with
> a thought that it will need to be ported sometime in the future.
> If you are speaking of custom software then people buy
feature limited? where exactly did i mention you should limit your
features?
i'm talking about creating a long lasting relationship with a client
that you don't inadvertantly screw in the future, you're talking about
making a fast buck.
>
> Besides, what makes you think that current Java API won't fade away
> or become obsolete 10 year from now?
there's a much greater chance of microsoft and other proprietary
technologies fading away or being made legacy than java doing the same.
why? as an example, because microsoft is in this to make money, and
nothing makes the money flow faster than insuring that backwards
compatibility becomes minimal over time...thus forcing customers to
upgrade repeatedly. dumping current technology once in a while and
making them legacy is ALSO a great way to milk money out of everyone
(including developers), who will have to scramble to buy new tools,
books, etc. the move to .net has especially been troublesome for many
developers who have already devoted years learning the former microsoft
technologies.
username
> > if that is true, then why are you flooding the groups with your java
> > advocacy?
>
>
> so you think that people should not advocate solution that they think
> are GOOD?
no, but you seem to be running a large campaign against everything that is
not java. I would say that a product that is already marketleader (which you
are claiming) does not need a campaign like that.
> or perhaps you wish that people should advocate BAD solutions?
no, what a strange idea.
> > I am only interested in delivering functionality to my customers.
>
> ahhhh!!!! of course! but giving them a long term solution to their
> problems would obviously be preferable to screwing them sometime along
> the line.
ask your user (after you told him how expensive your solution is)
> for example, writing a client application using a proprietary language
> that "faded" away or was made into a "legacy" technology would certainly
> cause some problems down the road if the client wanted some upgrades
> done...perhaps there would not be any available programmers to do the
> modifications, or perhaps the few available would be very
> expensive...then the customer would have to recreate the wheel, as it
> were, and create a brand new app that did almost the same thing!
same holds for java.
> or what happens if the customer upgrades his hardware or system in
> future and needs to port the application over to the new system? what if
> that proprietary app could NOT be ported over?
you are assuming all future hardware will have java JVM's ..... think about
it
> with a standards based,
> cross-platform, widely-used technology like java, the chances are it
> would not cause that much headaches moving the app over to the new
> system.
think again
Carlos Bazzarella
>
> <SOME STUFF DELETED>
>
> Besides, what makes you think that current Java API won't fade away
> or become obsolete 10 year from now?
That is absolutely true !!! Here is a perspective from a devolted
Handheld Java developer for many years. If you doubt me, check out
our web site and apps.
Unless the speed problems of Java are improved and also the proper
compatibility testing is resolved, Java on handhelds will never
take off. Java apps NEVER run the same on different devices (pocket
pc, sharp zaurus, Sony Ericcson P800) and cell phones (nokia,
motorola, sharp, etc). You always need to make lots of modifications
for each device due to bugs on their Java implementation as well
as the performance of their Java implementation. End users are
only interested in great apps that perform well and have useful
features.
Sure 100 Million devices (cell phones) have some kind of Java in
them but tell me how many good quality Java apps are listed on
the must have list for these devices.
Java is slow and it is not getting faster. PersonalJava had specs
for 50mhz of higher and using Jeode on PocketPC devices with
200mhz is just about useable. I am not saying fast, I am just
saying useable, it can actually run ok. This is not only for our
complicated apps but also for simple calendars and periodic tables.
So what happened ??? Why can't we have great Java apps for these
new amazingly fast and memory loaded devices that are coming out ?
Go to Handango.com and search for the best selling apps for
PocketPC, how is Java doing there.
Since most cell phones do not have 200mhz processors and lots of
memory, you can just imagine the performance of Java code there.
Not to mention that the size of so called Midlets have ridiculous
limits like 10kb to 64kb. So basically developers have to ignore
all the nice features of Java and basically write spagetti-code
wrapped on one class to get Java apps out with some kind of
functionality.
This is so wrong and a guarantee for Java on handhelds/cell phones
to fail simply because no useful apps are able to be developed
for it !!!!!!!! Look at what developers can do with J2ME and
what developers can do with MS SmartPhone, on the long run this
is what will decide the winners.
Java always looks great on paper but the problem is reality and
that's why nobody can provide a list of the top 10 most innovative
Java based handheld apps. There possibly isn't that many good
handheld Java apps. out there and don't forget there are 3 million
Java based developers out there so what the heck is going on ???
This fact should be a direct message to the people behind Java on
handheld; I don't know about them but Microsoft is certainly
listening...
Carlos.
Tim Tyler
: Here is a perspective from a devolted Handheld Java developer for many
: years. If you doubt me, check out our web site and apps.
Where are your web site or apps?
asj
there have been some BIG issues in MIDP v1 about compatibility with the
implementations on various handsets...this was a valid complaint (and
one i also posted and wrote about). however, this was only the first
version of MIDP, and the fact that there are so many devices (all from
diff manufacturers and with many diff capabilities) only created bigger
problems...
the many vendors and manufacturers have gotten together and have partly
adddressed this issue by releasing an architectural roadmap for future
developments of wireless java that will help guide companies and
developers.
http://www.jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=185
with the recent release of MIDP 2, there has been some notable
improvements in its capabilities as well. this will only get better as
time passes.
remember too, midp is targeted at LIMITED devices, the very ubiquitous
cellphones on the medium and high end range...it was never meant to run
on high end handhelds with much greater processing power.
i would also point out that arguments about the portability of midp
among various devices is sometime exagerated, or are made by people who
tend to use APIs which the manufacturer warns are device specific.
again, i will note the notion that "democracy is not perfect, but it's
the best solution out there." in the same way, "java is not perfectly
portable, BUT it's BY FAR the best solution out there"...try running
windows ce apps on a symbian or linux phone and you'll see what i mean.
finally, the success of java on small devices is obviously not
completely certain (in life, what is?), but it is definitely MUCH MUCH
more certain than the success of microsoft technologies, simply because
Java THRIVES in a highly diversified, highly competitve environment,
which describes the handset/smartphone area nicely, and somewhat the
handheld arena.
if you don't think microsoft technologies are in danger of faltering,
note that microsoft smartphones have NOT sold well at all, and even
advocacy sites for these are VERY frustrated about it:
"Smart phones continue to accelerate, but Microsoft smartphone still
fails"
http://www.msmobiles.com/news.php/1104.html
"Cardinal errors of Microsoft in cell phone industry"
http://www.msmobiles.com/article.php/34.html
In fact, handset makers have been forced to add MIDP capabilities to
their microsoft smartphones, simply because carriers ask for it.
asj
> > so you think that people should not advocate solution that they think
> > are GOOD?
>
> no, but you seem to be running a large campaign against everything that is
> not java. I would say that a product that is already marketleader (which you
> are claiming) does not need a campaign like that.
(1) sorry, i do not have to claim anything. in the realm of handsets and
many small devices like smartcards, the numbers speak for themselves.
(2) you must not have any marketing experience - just because you are
doing well does NOT mean you just sit back and watch the parade flow
by...it would be like coke stopping all advertising and marketing
dollars "just because they're on top".
> >
> > ahhhh!!!! of course! but giving them a long term solution to their
> > problems would obviously be preferable to screwing them sometime along
> > the line.
>
> ask your user (after you told him how expensive your solution is)
ah! but this presupposes that java is a MORE EXPENSIVE solution. in
fact, java is firmly aligned on the open source side, and there are TONS
of FREE tools that will always give you an ROI that is less than any
completely proprietary solution!
in this way, the COST to you and your client can be MUCH LESS than
using, say, microsoft technologies, where microsoft tries to gouge every
penny it can from developers and users in its quest to continue growing
fast enough to justify its high stock valuations.
for example, we could create a robust J2EE solution by using the open
source web app server JBOSS, the servlet/jsp container Apache Tomcat
(also open source), running on open source Linux server (the fastest
growing server OS in the world) with apache (the dominant web server in
the world by far). Total cost of software components: $0...ZERO!
and you'll create a solution that most likely is more stable, secure,
and robust than a much more expensive microsoft solution using
security-challenged software like IIS and windows 2000.
>
> > for example, writing a client application using a proprietary language
> > that "faded" away or was made into a "legacy" technology would certainly
> > cause some problems down the road if the client wanted some upgrades
> > done...perhaps there would not be any available programmers to do the
> > modifications, or perhaps the few available would be very
> > expensive...then the customer would have to recreate the wheel, as it
> > were, and create a brand new app that did almost the same thing!
>
> same holds for java.
>
since java's chances of success are much greater than a proprietary
technology with only a limited number of programmers, then how could
this be the same for java?
in fact, look at how this microsoft developer is complaining about how
the frequent churning of microsoft technologies has left him tired and
dispirited:
http://www.angrycoder.com/article.aspx?cid=1&y=2003&m=7&d=17
the fact is, 10 years along the road, it'll be much easier to get a java
programmer, than say, a microsoft COM developer, or microsoft J++
developer, or even a microsoft VB programmer, simply because these have
now become legacy...again, java does not CHURN, proprietary technolgies
whose owners just want more dinero tend to churn a lot, to the detriment
of users and developers alike.
> > or what happens if the customer upgrades his hardware or system in
> > future and needs to port the application over to the new system? what if
> > that proprietary app could NOT be ported over?
>
> you are assuming all future hardware will have java JVM's ..... think about
> it
well, it sure is in a hell lot more hardware than anything out there.
like is said, it won't be in everything, but nothing elese will come
close - certainly not microsoft windows ce (unless you're really into
stripped down embedded devices).
>
> > with a standards based,
> > cross-platform, widely-used technology like java, the chances are it
> > would not cause that much headaches moving the app over to the new
> > system.
>
> Think again
uh....it look like you have minor real world experience with java so
short comment like this actually make no sense. try adding some
elaboration and examples.
asj
> Where are your web site or apps?
use his email address. pretty small outfit looks like. but again, he
makes some good points.
username
"asj" <k...@xx.com> wrote in message news:3F2AA6...@xx.com...
> username wrote:
> > > so you think that people should not advocate solution that they think
> > > are GOOD?
> >
> > no, but you seem to be running a large campaign against everything that
is
> > not java. I would say that a product that is already marketleader (which
you
> > are claiming) does not need a campaign like that.
>
>
> (1) sorry, i do not have to claim anything. in the realm of handsets and
> many small devices like smartcards, the numbers speak for themselves.
>
> (2) you must not have any marketing experience - just because you are
> doing well does NOT mean you just sit back and watch the parade flow
> by...it would be like coke stopping all advertising and marketing
> dollars "just because they're on top".
I will ignore these 2 statements, as they seem totally unrelated, and they
are not responses to my points.
Carlos Bazzarella
Are there any 'big outfits' developing Java based software
for handheld/cell phones devices ? That is another sign
that reality doesn't match the hype...
Carlos.
Carlos Bazzarella
asj
> I will ignore these 2 statements, as they seem totally unrelated, and they
> are not responses to my points.
yes, please do run away when you suddenly find yourself forced into an
indefensible position.
and what happened to the rest of the post? you know, where i show that
java can actually give you an ROI (return on investment) less than
microsoft technology? or that even microsoft developers are complaining
about being on an endless treadmill as it continues to churn away its
technology?
asj
> Are there any 'big outfits' developing Java based software
> for handheld/cell phones devices ? That is another sign
> that reality doesn't match the hype...
is SHARP big enough? what about SAP? what about IBM? what about SEGA?
what about RIM?
as the market matures, i'm sure consolidation of the various and many
small players will occur and result in a few very large software houses.
that's just how life works.
username
"asj" <k...@xx.com> wrote in message news:3F2AAC...@xx.com...
ah, that part, well that was relevant, but it did not contain anything new
and did not contribute to the discussion, so..... I ignored it (as we all
read it before, and we all read all answers to it)
Carlos Bazzarella
>
> Carlos Bazzarella wrote:
> > Are there any 'big outfits' developing Java based software
> > for handheld/cell phones devices ? That is another sign
> > that reality doesn't match the hype...
>
> is SHARP big enough? what about SAP? what about IBM? what about SEGA?
> what about RIM?
I am talking about big Software developers and not hardware makers.
Hardware makers jumped on Java like an Elephant on a mouse just to
protect themselves from the evil empire (Microsoft) and they also
figured more software would be written for their devices since they
weren't going anywhere with C/C++ and their proprietary APIs (talking
about RIM here).
Now let's see the big hardware players.
Sharp, recently dumped Jeode (amazing implementation of Java) for
Sun's J2ME Personal Profile (on latest C760 device). In the process
not one single previous Java application can run on this device.
Whatever happened to Java's amazing capabilities.
SAP, no comment since the discussion here is for Handhelds and cell phones.
Same for Sega.
Now IBM has J9 (they recently changed the name though) and their first
deal was with Palm for future Tungsten. So all of this is future things
so there is also nothing to comment right now. We'll see what we, developers,
can do with their JVM on Palm's future Tungsten.
For RIM there isn't still that many Java based apps out there, not
to mention that RIM is not very happy about MIDP 2.0 and so far I
don't think they have committed to it. Another blow to Java don't
you think ?
Carlos.
asj
> > yes, please do run away when you suddenly find yourself forced into an
> > indefensible position.
> >
> > and what happened to the rest of the post? you know, where i show that
> > java can actually give you an ROI (return on investment) less than
> > microsoft technology? or that even microsoft developers are complaining
> > about being on an endless treadmill as it continues to churn away its
> > technology?
>
> ah, that part, well that was relevant, but it did not contain anything new
> and did not contribute to the discussion, so..... I ignored it (as we all
> read it before, and we all read all answers to it)
really? for someone who supposedly read it before, you seem display an
amazing lack of ability to understand it.
i'd say it's more in the line of not having any argument to counter the
points.
please, mr. "username", go back to the anonymity from whence you
came....
asj
the largest) and sega one of the largest video game companies in the
world. IBM, just in case you forgot, is both a hardware and software
company, while RIM does make its own software (in fact, RIM turned its
Blackberry into a pure Java machine and recoded its built-in
applications in Java).
i suggest you learn more before making general statements like you have.
(although again, i see your points with regards to compatibility
problems in MIDP 1 - but things can only get better as these problems
are addressed in later versions)....
one initial stop might be at the Lurker's Guide to J2ME:
http://www.blueboard.com/j2me/
here's an example of the above:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SAP, Sharp to build J2ME applications that deliver real-time data across
corporate networks
(Internet News 2003-7-7)
Enterprise software company SAP AG and Japanese electronics giant Sharp
have teamed up in order to build applications that deliver real-time
data across corporate networks to smaller mobile devices.
The applications will be designed using open source operating system
Linux and Java-based programming protocols, in an expansion of the
companies' support for non-Windows-based software and vendors.
The deal marks yet another company embracing open-source operating
systems in the development of enterprise-focused applications. Mobile
phone and electronics giant Motorola recently threw its weight behind
Linux-based mobile device and software development.
The support of major companies like SAP, Sharp and Motorola gives the
Linux-based mobile operating system a boost at a time when it is
increasingly seen as a threat to Microsoft's proprietary Windows CE
mobile device operating system, as well as alternatives offered by
VxWorks and Palm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
m...@home.com
Not this user. Not now. Not ever!!
username
"asj" <k...@xx.com> wrote in message news:3F2AAE...@xx.com...
> Carlos Bazzarella wrote:
> > Are there any 'big outfits' developing Java based software
> > for handheld/cell phones devices ? That is another sign
> > that reality doesn't match the hype...
>
> is SHARP big enough? what about SAP? what about IBM? what about SEGA?
> what about RIM?
Is there any product that companies like IBM is NOT
using/supporting/developing?
Hence, the fact that companies like IBM are supporting java does not support
your case.
> as the market matures, i'm sure consolidation of the various and many
> small players will occur and result in a few very large software houses.
> that's just how life works.
sure, but this is not java specific or even related, hence this will not
give java the edge over the competition.
username
"asj" <k...@xx.com> wrote in message news:3F2AC6...@xx.com...
> hardware makers? SAP is the largest software company in europe (if not
> the largest) and sega one of the largest video game companies in the
> world. IBM, just in case you forgot, is both a hardware and software
> company, while RIM does make its own software (in fact, RIM turned its
> Blackberry into a pure Java machine and recoded its built-in
> applications in Java).
ok, so ignore his statement that SAP etc are hardware makers. Then the rest
of his excellent posting still holds, and contains many good points. Respond
to them
username
"asj" <k...@xx.com> wrote in message news:3F2AC4...@xx.com...
> username wrote:
> > > yes, please do run away when you suddenly find yourself forced into an
> > > indefensible position.
> > >
> > > and what happened to the rest of the post? you know, where i show that
> > > java can actually give you an ROI (return on investment) less than
> > > microsoft technology? or that even microsoft developers are
complaining
> > > about being on an endless treadmill as it continues to churn away its
> > > technology?
> >
> > ah, that part, well that was relevant, but it did not contain anything
new
> > and did not contribute to the discussion, so..... I ignored it (as we
all
> > read it before, and we all read all answers to it)
>
>
> really?
yep
> for someone who supposedly read it before, you seem display an
> amazing lack of ability to understand it.
I am sorry you feel that way, I suggest you re-read this whole thread and
then explain yourself better.
> i'd say it's more in the line of not having any argument to counter the
> points.
thats not a strong argument mr asj. Try again.
> please, mr. "username", go back to the anonymity from whence you
> came....
well, mr asj, the only reason you are known here, is that you flood
newsgroups with java ramblings. be proud of that.
Carlos Bazzarella
literarly. Notice I mentioned no comments for SAP and Sega.
After everything I said and pointed out to, I figure you
would be smart enough not to point ME the obvious educational links.
Remember I am a real developer of Java based handheld/cell phone
apps with real apps. Hey, I am going to read blueboard as if it
was the gospel, NOT !!! You sound like an enthusiast and not like
a professional with real world experience. RIM is my next door
neighbour and I know a lot about what goes on there. You seem to
beleive everything you need, trying doing stuff and you will figure
out that the real world is not like the marketing hype.
Carlos.
asj
>
> "asj" <k...@xx.com> wrote in message news:3F2AAE...@xx.com...
> > Carlos Bazzarella wrote:
> > > Are there any 'big outfits' developing Java based software
> > > for handheld/cell phones devices ? That is another sign
> > > that reality doesn't match the hype...
> >
> > is SHARP big enough? what about SAP? what about IBM? what about SEGA?
> > what about RIM?
>
> Is there any product that companies like IBM is NOT
> using/supporting/developing?
> Hence, the fact that companies like IBM are supporting java does not support
> your case.
(1) IBM is only 1 example; you fail to address the fact there are many
big software vendors that are creating J2ME apps;
(2) since even IBM has finite resources, it sure would not be able to
support everything...IBM is spending about 10x the amount of money on
java that sun is, and its support of j2me is very strong....does ibm
create .NET software? does it dabble in window ce apps? does it create
palm software to the extent that it uses j2me? NO.
your original intent was to disparage j2me by commenting that no large
outfits develop java based software for phones/handheld....i showed some
examples of some VERY big outfits that do develop j2me apps. is there
any point discussing this further beyond the nitpicking that you are
doing?
asj
you mentioned there were no big companies supporting and developing j2me
apps - i pointed otherwise, but really apologize if i made you angry
with the "read the freakin' manual" type response. must be too late in
the day...time to go home.
Carlos Bazzarella
I beleive Java has the potential to beat the competiton but current
implementation basically sucks !!! Even today when we run our Formulae 1
(MIDP 1.0) version on different implementations we come across childish
bugs in the implementation that basically points out that this technology
is not mature or was even properly tested or actually used by outside
developers. Take a look a Nokia's implementation of MIDP 1.0 for Series
60 devices. Read the forums; did you know that you can not use color
when drawing text on a background buffer. It is a current bug. Also
clipping text on a background buffer doesn't work. These bugs are there
today and they released their version of MIDP 1.0 a couple of years
ago (2001 I beleive). As a professional developer this sucks and points
to immature technology. Oh yeah things will always get better but
J2ME was originally hyped in 1999 and 4 years later the hype of then
doesn't meet the reality of today !!! Successful stuff, I think not.
Oh yeah before I forget, Sun has this new combined industry initiative
to help QA J2ME end user apps with Nokia, Motorola and a few other
players (don't quote me on the usual suspects here) but I should just
tell them to test their own Java implementations before they force
developers to test their apps. How can developers get their apps.
running on so many devices when these devices have so many bugs !!!
Clean your house before you invite others in to offer cleaning
services to them !!!
Carlos.
username
"asj" <k...@xx.com> wrote in message news:3F2ADC...@xx.com...
> username wrote:
> >
> > "asj" <k...@xx.com> wrote in message news:3F2AAE...@xx.com...
> > > Carlos Bazzarella wrote:
> > > > Are there any 'big outfits' developing Java based software
> > > > for handheld/cell phones devices ? That is another sign
> > > > that reality doesn't match the hype...
> > >
> > > is SHARP big enough? what about SAP? what about IBM? what about SEGA?
> > > what about RIM?
> >
> > Is there any product that companies like IBM is NOT
> > using/supporting/developing?
> > Hence, the fact that companies like IBM are supporting java does not
support
> > your case.
>
>
> (1) IBM is only 1 example; you fail to address the fact there are many
> big software vendors that are creating J2ME apps;
why should I adress this? I agree with this, so?
> (2) since even IBM has finite resources, it sure would not be able to
> support everything...
uh, please realise that "all the hardware" is also finite at any point of
time....
> IBM is spending about 10x the amount of money on
> java that sun is, and its support of j2me is very strong....does ibm
> create .NET software? does it dabble in window ce apps? does it create
> palm software to the extent that it uses j2me? NO.
are you sure?
> your original intent was to disparage j2me by commenting that no large
> outfits develop java based software for phones/handheld...
not true
>.i showed some
> examples of some VERY big outfits that do develop j2me apps. is there
> any point discussing this further beyond the nitpicking that you are
> doing?
with you? no.
username
>
> you mentioned there were no big companies supporting and developing j2me
> apps - i pointed otherwise, but really apologize if i made you angry
> with the "read the freakin' manual" type response. must be too late in
> the day...time to go home.
go home??? Seeing the vast amount of postings (and the contents of them) you
are making, it seems to me that:
- you are un-employed, sitting at home with flat-rate internet connectivity,
with a blind faith in java, or
- you are employed: paid to do java advocacy from 9 to 5.
m...@home.com
Pot = Kettle = Black
John D.
> John D. wrote:
>
> feature limited? where exactly did i mention you should limit your
> features?
If you want it to be portable you will have to make trade-offs.
Let's say you have touch-screen handheld and smartphone applications.
Do you design single application that takes advantage of touch screen
at expense of cluttering smartphone application with redundant on-screen
controls or do you optimize it for smartphone at expense of application
usability on the touch screen? Or do you write 2 separate applications
for each device? Java or no Java, bridging the differences in
underlying hardware isn't always possible.
> >
> > Besides, what makes you think that current Java API won't fade away
> > or become obsolete 10 year from now?
>
> there's a much greater chance of microsoft and other proprietary
> technologies fading away or being made legacy than java doing the same.
Oh yeah? How about this list?
http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4.1/docs/api/deprecated-list.html
The Ghost In The Machine
<k...@xx.com>
wrote
on Thu, 31 Jul 2003 15:37:44 -0400
<3F2970...@xx.com>:
> username wrote:
>> sounds like you never tried java apps.... they are very platform specific
>> (or better put: JVM specific) and buggy!
>
>
> sounds like you've never actually used java a lot (other than playing
> with applets perhaps).
>
> eBay is building its ENTIRE infrastructure on J2EE (it dumped
> microsoft's .NET in favor of a more RPBUST solution):
What's their timetable? My last probe (a day or two ago)
indicates their frontends are happily running IIS/4.
I'll admit they'll probably be the last to go once the
infrastructure has undergone widescale testing -- flip
the DNS and everyone's now happy applets. Or more likely
servlets.
And IIS is supposed to be version 5 or so at latest rev. I don't
know if IIS 6 is out or not.
(I'm not sure I care... :-) )
[rest snipped]
--
#191, ewi...@earthlink.net
It's still legal to go .sigless.
asj
> go home??? Seeing the vast amount of postings (and the contents of them) you
> are making, it seems to me that:
> - you are un-employed, sitting at home with flat-rate internet connectivity,
> with a blind faith in java, or
> - you are employed: paid to do java advocacy from 9 to 5.
hmmm......wish i was paid to do it. and nope, unfortunately, i am
employed and not sitting in a hawaii beach reading your nonsensical
posts.
asj
> of his excellent posting still holds, and contains many good points. Respond
> to them
what other comments? he went over the list of companies i gave and tried
to show they did not do j2me app development. i showed otherwise (for
RIM, sharp, whatever). for example, i posted that article showing sharp
and SAP joining forces to create enterprise j2me apps and noted that RIM
has its blackberry completely java-based.
you STILL make no points no matter which thread you join! give it up....
asj
>
> > for someone who supposedly read it before, you seem display an
> > amazing lack of ability to understand it.
>
> I am sorry you feel that way, I suggest you re-read this whole thread and
> then explain yourself better.
uh....so you can snip off 90% of the arguments that you can't counter?
like where i show that java can actually give you an ROI (return on
investment) much less than
microsoft technology, after you idiotically seemed to think fostering a
long term relationship with clients would somehow COST more if done in
java?
or that even microsoft developers are complaining about being on an
endless treadmill as microsoft continues to churn away its
technology every few years, while java's core has remained the same
since the beginning, simply expanding rapidly into other niches? this
way, developers can concentrate on creating better apps through
optimization or better architectures rather than having to worry that
they'll have to relearn new basic rules again every few years. plus, you
don't suddenly end up wasting years of learning and become one the
"newbies" after some newfangled language is "forced" on you (when your
expertise suddenly is now legacy).
> > please, mr. "username", go back to the anonymity from whence you
> > came....
>
> well, mr asj, the only reason you are known here, is that you flood
> newsgroups with java ramblings. be proud of that.
uh...that's not what i meant...i meant the fact that you are anonymous
in your postings.
username
m...@home.com
I know you're a WinCE etc. advocate, but you're not really that dumb
or ignorant are you? Think. HARD!
(Then again, you _are_ a WinCE advocate, so maybe you really do need
a hint. = Compare your activities to the ones you denigrated in your
post. I realize there are a lot of polysyllabic words in there, but
maybe you could use one of your WinCE dictionaries to get the
definitions in a week or two)
username
<m...@home.com> wrote in message
news:4canivk2atsut5d8q...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 2 Aug 2003 10:12:01 +0200, "username" <e-mail@adress> wrote:
>
> >
> ><m...@home.com> wrote in message
> >news:msqlivkih7259etr1...@4ax.com...
> >> On Fri, 1 Aug 2003 23:52:15 +0200, "username" <e-mail@adress> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >"asj" <k...@xx.com> wrote in message news:3F2ADC...@xx.com...
> >> >> carlos:
> >> >>
> >> >> you mentioned there were no big companies supporting and developing
> >j2me
> >> >> apps - i pointed otherwise, but really apologize if i made you angry
> >> >> with the "read the freakin' manual" type response. must be too late
in
> >> >> the day...time to go home.
> >> >
> >> >go home??? Seeing the vast amount of postings (and the contents of
them)
> >you
> >> >are making, it seems to me that:
> >> >- you are un-employed, sitting at home with flat-rate internet
> >connectivity,
> >> >with a blind faith in java, or
> >> >- you are employed: paid to do java advocacy from 9 to 5.
> >> >
> >>
> >> Pot = Kettle = Black
> >
> >explain
> >
>
> I know you're a WinCE etc. advocate,
you're wrong. try again (but first re-read all my posts).
username
"asj" <a...@xzxx.com> wrote in message news:3F2B3E...@xzxx.com...
> username wrote:
> >
> > > for someone who supposedly read it before, you seem display an
> > > amazing lack of ability to understand it.
> >
> > I am sorry you feel that way, I suggest you re-read this whole thread
and
> > then explain yourself better.
>
>
> uh....so you can snip off 90% of the arguments that you can't counter?
>
> like where i show that java can actually give you an ROI (return on
> investment) much less than
> microsoft technology, after you idiotically seemed to think fostering a
> long term relationship with clients would somehow COST more if done in
> java?
>
> or that even microsoft developers are complaining about being on an
> endless treadmill as microsoft continues to churn away its
> technology every few years, while java's core has remained the same
> since the beginning, simply expanding rapidly into other niches? this
> way, developers can concentrate on creating better apps through
> optimization or better architectures rather than having to worry that
> they'll have to relearn new basic rules again every few years. plus, you
> don't suddenly end up wasting years of learning and become one the
> "newbies" after some newfangled language is "forced" on you (when your
> expertise suddenly is now legacy).
you show so many signs of naiveness, I don't know where to start to counter
them....
> > > please, mr. "username", go back to the anonymity from whence you
> > > came....
> >
> > well, mr asj, the only reason you are known here, is that you flood
> > newsgroups with java ramblings. be proud of that.
>
> uh...that's not what i meant...i meant the fact that you are anonymous
> in your postings.
well thats just another example
username
"asj" <a...@xzxx.com> wrote in message news:3F2B3B...@xzxx.com...
> > ok, so ignore his statement that SAP etc are hardware makers. Then the
rest
> > of his excellent posting still holds, and contains many good points.
Respond
> > to them
>
> what other comments? he went over the list of companies i gave and tried
> to show they did not do j2me app development. i showed otherwise (for
> RIM, sharp, whatever). for example, i posted that article showing sharp
> and SAP joining forces to create enterprise j2me apps and noted that RIM
> has its blackberry completely java-based.
no you showed some marketing announcements, stories etc. there is a
difference between that and reality, are you aware of that?
> you STILL make no points no matter which thread you join! give it up....
no, please do not give up, enlighten us with your ramblings!
Jon A. Cruz
> If you want it to be portable you will have to make trade-offs.
> Let's say you have touch-screen handheld and smartphone applications.
> Do you design single application that takes advantage of touch screen
> at expense of cluttering smartphone application with redundant on-screen
> controls or do you optimize it for smartphone at expense of application
> usability on the touch screen? Or do you write 2 separate applications
> for each device?
You don't have to go to those extremes. You can also write one
application with a UI that adjusts to the platform it's run on. A single
application that takes advantage of both.
> Java or no Java, bridging the differences in
> underlying hardware isn't always possible.
No. That is true. However, often a well designed solution will work in
more situations than one might expect.
Though there are some different reasons than you focus on for doing two
apps in the case you point out. The reason you mention is one of the
more trivial ones (or, at least, is in a well designed app).
Jon A. Cruz
> asj wrote:
>
>>
>>is SHARP big enough? what about SAP? what about IBM? what about SEGA?
>>what about RIM?
>
>
> I am talking about big Software developers and not hardware makers.
Hmmm... then take another look at that list.
SEGA has been a software developer ever since the demise of the Dreamcast.
They were showing all sorts of stuff at E3 this year.
username
"Jon A. Cruz" <j...@joncruz.org> wrote in message
news:3F2BE36B...@joncruz.org...
> John D. wrote:
> > If you want it to be portable you will have to make trade-offs.
> > Let's say you have touch-screen handheld and smartphone applications.
> > Do you design single application that takes advantage of touch screen
> > at expense of cluttering smartphone application with redundant on-screen
> > controls or do you optimize it for smartphone at expense of application
> > usability on the touch screen? Or do you write 2 separate applications
> > for each device?
>
> You don't have to go to those extremes. You can also write one
> application with a UI that adjusts to the platform it's run on. A single
> application that takes advantage of both.
yeah that's real portable...NOT. might as well make platform specific
binaries....
> > Java or no Java, bridging the differences in
> > underlying hardware isn't always possible.
>
> No. That is true.
of course it is true
> However, often a well designed solution will work in
> more situations than one might expect.
sure, but not in ALL situations, which was his point
asj
> > I know you're a WinCE etc. advocate,
>
> you're wrong. try again (but first re-read all my posts).
he STILL doesn't get it...oh wow!
asj
>
> no you showed some marketing announcements, stories etc. there is a
> difference between that and reality, are you aware of that?
are you aware you're the only person here who has no idea about it?
(1) Sharp and SAP entered into a contractual agreement,...this was not a
"marketing" announcement....perhaps you don't know the difference?
(2) Sega has created J2ME (MIDP) games, including some of the first ones
launched on sprint pcs. those are NOT "marketing announcements".
(3) RIM's blackberry is java-based. that is NOT some "marketing
announcement".
how exactly should we put it so that you mind can grasp the concept?
asj
>
> "asj" <a...@xzxx.com> wrote in message news:3F2B3E...@xzxx.com...
> > username wrote:
> > like where i show that java can actually give you an ROI (return on
> > investment) much less than
> > microsoft technology, after you idiotically seemed to think fostering a
> > long term relationship with clients would somehow COST more if done in
> > java?
> >
> > or that even microsoft developers are complaining about being on an
> > endless treadmill as microsoft continues to churn away its
> > technology every few years, while java's core has remained the same
> > since the beginning, simply expanding rapidly into other niches? this
> > way, developers can concentrate on creating better apps through
> > optimization or better architectures rather than having to worry that
> > they'll have to relearn new basic rules again every few years. plus, you
> > don't suddenly end up wasting years of learning and become one the
> > "newbies" after some newfangled language is "forced" on you (when your
> > expertise suddenly is now legacy).
>
> you show so many signs of naiveness, I don't know where to start to counter
> them....
>
bwahahahabwahahaha!!!!!!
that's it, when you have no idea how to counter arguments, either snip
them off without comment or give some nonsensical one-liners disparaging
the other side without addresing any points.
m...@home.com
>you show so many signs of naiveness, I don't know where to start to counter
>them....
You could start by learning english, or french maybe. The word you're
mangling is "naďveté".
Brandon Blackmoor
>
> how exactly should we put it so that you mind can
> grasp the concept?
"username" is either a shill or a troll (perhaps both), and you are
wasting your time responding to her.
However, I have found the information about Sega and Rim to be extremely
interesting (I had no idea Blackberry was Java based), so your time
hasn't been entirely wasted. Thanks.
asj
> "username" is either a shill or a troll (perhaps both), and you are
> wasting your time responding to her.
>
> However, I have found the information about Sega and Rim to be extremely
> interesting (I had no idea Blackberry was Java based), so your time
> hasn't been entirely wasted. Thanks.
t'would be wasted if it was a private email conversation...but flowing
information to other people (and let them be the judge of its
usefulness) is always a good goal. i believe RIM actually has recoded
(or is recoding) ALL its blackberry apps to java - don't ask me why, i
think it's stupid too, but then again i don't work there).
Eric Lindsay's spam trap
<cbazz...@OUTpoliplus.com> wrote:
>Unless the speed problems of Java are improved and also the proper
>compatibility testing is resolved, Java on handhelds will never
>take off.
I won't install Java on any device these days. It isn't on my
Windows PC (Opera can be obtained without it). It isn't on my
PDA (although an old version is available). As far as I can tell
(and I admit I _may_ be missing some great applications), I'm not
missing much by taking this approach.
Java apps I encountered always seemed to either need a more
up-to-date version of the JVM (on the PDA at least that wasn't an
option), or there was some problem with something not being
available. The few I did run worked too slow to be acceptable.
I don't need these problems, so I don't use the product in which
I encountered them.
>Java is slow and it is not getting faster.
I get acceptable performance from interpretted OPL applications
on a 34MHz PDA (although I'll admit some are better than others
when lots of data is involved), but didn't get acceptable
performance from Java. To me, that seems to say something is
still broken.
--
Eric Lindsay http://www.ericlindsay.com/guff
Airlie Beach Qld Australia - Great Barrier Reef entry
Psion & Epoc site http://www.ericlindsay.com/epoc
username
"asj" <a...@xzxx.com> wrote in message news:3F2C66...@xzxx.com...
> username:
> >
> > no you showed some marketing announcements, stories etc. there is a
> > difference between that and reality, are you aware of that?
>
>
> are you aware you're the only person here who has no idea about it?
well, since all others gave up on this thread, I am the only person here
anyway.
think about that.
> (1) Sharp and SAP entered into a contractual agreement,...this was not a
> "marketing" announcement....perhaps you don't know the difference?
an agreement? so what? what products came out? what percentage of their
total? etc. My point is: everybody is developing with java in one way or
another, that does mean anything.
The company I work for is a heavy java (serverside) developer, but then, the
company is big in development for any platform you can imagine, so is java
winning (what you are advocating) ? no. It is just another language.
> (2) Sega has created J2ME (MIDP) games, including some of the first ones
> launched on sprint pcs. those are NOT "marketing announcements".
anyone has done that. so?
> (3) RIM's blackberry is java-based. that is NOT some "marketing
> announcement".
so?
windows is C++ based, so?
> how exactly should we put it so that you mind can grasp the concept?
first make sure you understand things yourself, ok? now try again.
username
<m...@home.com> wrote in message
news:28roivc07nf67g888...@4ax.com...
really?
hint: http://www.hyperdictionary.com/search.aspx?Dict=&define=naiveness
username
"Eric Lindsay's spam trap" <spam...@ericlindsay.com> wrote in message
news:3f2cbd9b...@news.bigpond.com...
> On Fri, 01 Aug 2003 12:18:19 -0300, Carlos Bazzarella
> <cbazz...@OUTpoliplus.com> wrote:
>
> >Unless the speed problems of Java are improved and also the proper
> >compatibility testing is resolved, Java on handhelds will never
> >take off.
>
> I won't install Java on any device these days. It isn't on my
> Windows PC (Opera can be obtained without it). It isn't on my
> PDA (although an old version is available). As far as I can tell
> (and I admit I _may_ be missing some great applications), I'm not
> missing much by taking this approach.
same here, When I bought my psion5mx some years ago, it was marketed with
statements like "java enabled!!!", well, I never used its java capabilities.
I once tried a java app we developed in our company, but was very
disappointed: the UI looked completely different than on PC's, in fact the
UI was unusable. And it took minutes to just start the app. It was useless.
so java on that PDA was useless.
Now I have an IPAQ 3970, but never felt the need to install a JVM.
> Java apps I encountered always seemed to either need a more
> up-to-date version of the JVM (on the PDA at least that wasn't an
> option), or there was some problem with something not being
> available. The few I did run worked too slow to be acceptable.
exactly. Java is (said to be) not hardware specific, but it is definately
(in my experience) JVM specific (although java advocates are denying this of
course).
> I don't need these problems, so I don't use the product in which
> I encountered them.
exactly, plenty of alternatives
username
"asj" <a...@xzxx.com> wrote in message news:3F2C64...@xzxx.com...
I find this an effective way of killing a thread, or at least cause everyone
to deny a thread.
m...@home.com
Well it's not in my copy of the Oxford English Dictionary, nor is it
found in a search of the Cambridge University Press dictionary online
http://dictionary.cambridge.org
Of course if you want to trust a dictionary that appears to have been
in existence for all of 2 1/2 years since 2000 and whose list of
contributors leads to a blank page
http://www.hyperdictionary.com/linkers.html
that probably says as much about your judgement and knowledge as the
rest of your posts.
Mark Thornton
I wouldn't consider hyperdictionary to be particularly authoritative. My
own English dictionary (printed and compiled in England by the Oxford
University Press) does not contain the word. I suspect that it would not
be considered good English in this country (England). Also note that
dictionaries contain many words whose use is not currently recommended
for a variety of reasons.
Of course this is the "Internet" where mangled language is the norm.
Mark Thornton
username
"Mark Thornton" <m.p.th...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:8W4Xa.3864$yl6....@newsfep4-winn.server.ntli.net...
try an american dictionary.
username
<m...@home.com> wrote in message
news:pbmpivcms9i8n95ub...@4ax.com...
don't be so rediculous. are you an internet newbie? You are aware internet
is also available outside the UK?
tip: try an american dictionary
username
<m...@home.com> wrote in message
news:pbmpivcms9i8n95ub...@4ax.com...
ok try this :
http://www.cogsci.princeton.edu/~wn/
username
"Mark Thornton" <m.p.th...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:8W4Xa.3864$yl6....@newsfep4-winn.server.ntli.net...
is http://www.cogsci.princeton.edu/~wn/ more convincing to you?
Of course we can discuss the definition of language. Is it the list of words
in a book written by someone you blindly follow or is the the
language/wording actual people use?
hm, in fact this is interesting, and I now see the relevance of this to this
thread: blind java purists against real world people.
interesting, thank you!
asj
> > are you aware you're the only person here who has no idea about it?
>
> well, since all others gave up on this thread, I am the only person here
> anyway.
> think about that.
perhaps you should listen to the adage that it is a wise man indeed who
knows how the wind shifts, and does something about it.
> an agreement? so what? what products came out? what percentage of their
> total? etc. My point is: everybody is developing with java in one way or
> another, that does mean anything.
> The company I work for is a heavy java (serverside) developer, but then, the
> company is big in development for any platform you can imagine, so is java
> winning (what you are advocating) ? no. It is just another language.
loser....you don't win points for shifting the discussion when you have
no counterarguments.
the original argument was whether any big companies were using
j2me....with your statement above, you pretty much did a complete about
turn and admitted EVERYONE is using java.
now, as to WHY that's important, here's a CLUE...guess what, maybe
living with yo mama means you can do away with earning a living, but in
the REAL world us normal folk have to earn a living, and it sure
gladdens this java programmer's heart to see so many job opportunities
for people who take the time to learn java.
>
> > (2) Sega has created J2ME (MIDP) games, including some of the first ones
> > launched on sprint pcs. those are NOT "marketing announcements".
>
> anyone has done that. so?
hmmm. perhaps again it's because the original argument was that NO BIG
COMPANY DEVELOPED USING J2ME.
i guess you're folding on this point as well, eh?
i mean, c'mon now, give me some real competition here....you SCREW up
BIGTIME by somehow thinking it would COST MORE TO HAVE A LONG TERM
RELATIONSHIP WITH A CLIENT BY USING JAVA, then now you ADMIT EVERYONE IS
USING JAVA when the original argument was that NO big company was using
it.
hey man, at least make me sweat here...eh?
>
> > (3) RIM's blackberry is java-based. that is NOT some "marketing
> > announcement".
>
> so?
> windows is C++ based, so?
see above. again, the original argument was that NO BIG COMPANY
DEVELOPED USING J2ME.
Eric Lindsay's spam trap
>>hint: http://www.hyperdictionary.com/search.aspx?Dict=&define=naiveness
>
>Well it's not in my copy of the Oxford English Dictionary, nor is it
>found in a search of the Cambridge University Press dictionary online
>
>http://dictionary.cambridge.org
>
It is listed in Webster's New International, second edition,
sometimes claimed to be the finest single volume dictionary ever
produced, which means it dates back at least to the 1950's. Mind
you, I sometimes think that edition lists everything, as the
third edition lost at least 100,000 words.