Carlos Hathcock's sniper record broken
Full Auto
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1026143313994&call_page=TS_World&call_pageid=968332188854&call_pagepath=News/World
Here's the text if the link doesn't work. From The Star and AP.
U.S. bullets help Canadian snipers set world record
Killing shot made at distance of 2,430 metres
Stephen Thorne
Canadian Press
A world-record killing shot by a Canadian sniper detachment in
Afghanistan could never have been made with the ammunition they were
issued when they left Edmonton last winter, the triggerman said in a
recent interview.
The Canadian .50-calibre rounds have a maximum range of between 2,200
and 2,300 metres.
But the U.S. rounds, they discovered, "fly farther, faster," said Cpl.
"Bill", a 26-year-old native of Fogo Island, Nfld.
The two-man Canadian team, coupled with American Sgt. Zevon Durham of
Greenville, S.C., made the kill from 2,430 metres, or nearly 2 1/2
kilometres, on the second shot.
This feat is the equivalent of standing at the foot of Yonge St. and
hitting a target in the intersection of Yonge and Wellesley Sts., just
north of College St.
The first shot blew a bag from the hand of their target, an Al Qaeda
fighter walking on a road.
"He didn't even flinch," said Bill, who spoke on condition that his
real name not be used.
"We made a correction and the next round hit exactly where we wanted
it to. Well, a bit to the right."
The kill, one of more than 20 unofficially accredited to Canadian
snipers during Operation Anaconda in Afghanistan's Shah-i-Kot Valley,
beat the 35-year-old record of 2,500 yards, or 2,250 metres, set by
U.S. Marine Gunnery Sgt. Carlos Hathcock in Duc Pho, South Vietnam.
Soldier of Fortune magazine estimated the number of kills made by the
Canadians after talking to several U.S. soldiers in Kandahar for a
cover story in its August edition.
The snipers themselves will not confirm the figure.
But judging from accounts given by Canadians involved in the first
major coalition offensive of the Afghan war, the figure of at least 20
sounds conservative.
The 800-strong 3rd battalion of the Princess Patricia's Canadian Light
Infantry is pulling out this month.
They'll first go through a reintegration process on the Pacific island
of Guam before heading home to Edmonton.
About 100 British Royal Marines, too, wrapped up their last combat
mission in Afghanistan yesterday after four months in Afghanistan.
The five Canadian snipers, outfitted with British desert fatigues and
an array of equipment from all over the world, were divided into two
detachments that earned the respect of their American brothers-in-arms
after helping rescue dozens of paratroopers pinned down by enemy fire.
The five have been nominated for one of the highest awards given by
the United States military — the Bronze Star, two of them with Vs for
Valour, marking exceptional bravery.
Awarding of the American medal, which was to have been done at a
ceremony along with other Anaconda veterans in Kandahar in April, has
been delayed by Canadian protocol officials.
But more important to the Canadians are the gestures from their
American brethren who — while nearly killing them several times over
with "friendly fire" — owe many lives to their shooting skills.
"They trusted us to do our job, without question," said Master Cpl.
"James," a 31-year-old native of Kingsville, Ont., who like Cpl. Bill
asked that his identity not be revealed.
At one point during a series of battles, one of the Canadians was
without his rifle. Enemy bullets were hitting the earth all around.
Mortars were dropping in front and behind them, some within 10 metres,
bracketing their position and getting closer all the time.
"They really hammered us," said Bill.
He tried to get to their rifles but couldn't. Finally, an American
sniper tossed him his rifle and said: "Here, you know how to use this
better than I do."
They held off the enemy until darkness descended and escaped.
"They were instrumental in helping us achieve our goals out there,"
said 1st Lieut. Justin Overbaugh, 25, of Missoula, Mont., the soldier
who recommended Bill and James for Bronze Stars.
"They are professionals; they are very good at what they do; they
train hard, they are very mature, they are tactically and technically
proficient so when it came time to do business, they were on," he
said.
"If they told me I was going out right now, I'd be begging, kicking,
screaming, crying for them to come with us."
Bill and James said they pulled off several shots from 2,400 metres or
more.
"Shots out that far are 60 per cent skill and 40 per cent luck, or
vice versa," said Bill. "Usually, it takes two or three rounds,
sometimes five.
"Normally, a sniper wouldn't take that many shots, but they were out
so far we felt confident they couldn't tell where we were."
One morning, the two Canadians were set up overlooking a compound when
Al Qaeda fighters started "pouring out of buildings like ants."
Bill started shooting while James called in a mortar attack, followed
by B-52, F-16 and Apache helicopter strikes.
In a separate incident, Bill and James found themselves looking up at
a large dark object screaming out of the sky directly above them — a
220-kilogram American bomb.
"We hit the deck and covered our heads with our hands," said James.
The bomb landed 30 metres away, nose in, and never went off.
"By the grace of God, it was a dud," said Bill. "It landed 15 metres
from the B company (U.S. 101st Airborne Division) trenches. A guy got
up, walked out of the trench and kicked the thing."
Capt. Paul Madej, Operation Enduring Freedom chaplain, who debriefed
the Canadians, described them: "The Canadian snipers are professional,
well-trained soldiers who walked into harm's way and fulfilled their
mission. They represent the best and they have our respect."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Michael P. Brininstool
#
# See this link. It's long, you may have to patch it together.
# http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1026143313994&call_page=TS_World&call_pageid=968332188854&call_pagepath=News/World
The article make the US Military out to be Keystone Cops!
--
Michael P. Brininstool mik...@hoplite.org
"As a military man your lordship may hold out the sword of war, and call
it the "ultima ratio regum": the last reason of kings; we in return
can show you the sword of justice, and call it "the best scourge of
tyrants." -- Thos. Paine "The Crisis"
fred
his with M2 and a 8X scope on it,,,hardly not the same,but still a great
shot
Fred
Charles Winters
was pioneered by US civilians. In most countries this would be illegal,
but here its still possible. Not long after .50 caliber freaks started
showing off incredible 1000 yd groups, the US Army got interested and
adopted some of the same rifles and, interestingly, some of the same
precision loads. They first saw action in the Gulf War. The best
civilian shooters have match grade bullets from Barnes that make
standard BMG ball rounds look sick. Of course, the military would be
reluctant to give credit where its due. - CW
Full Auto wrote:
#
# See this link. It's long, you may have to patch it together.
# http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1026143313994&call_page=TS_World&call_pageid=968332188854&call_pagepath=News/World
#
# Here's the text if the link doesn't work. From The Star and AP.
#
# U.S. bullets help Canadian snipers set world record
# Killing shot made at distance of 2,430 metres
# Stephen Thorne
# Canadian Press
# A world-record killing shot by a Canadian sniper detachment in
# Afghanistan could never have been made with the ammunition they were
# issued when they left Edmonton last winter, the triggerman said in a
# recent interview.
#
# The Canadian .50-calibre rounds have a maximum range of between 2,200
# and 2,300 metres.
#
# But the U.S. rounds, they discovered, "fly farther, faster," said Cpl.
# "Bill", a 26-year-old native of Fogo Island, Nfld.
#
#
# -----------------------------------------------------------
Thomas M. Reynolds
# Full Auto wrote:
# #
# # See this link. It's long, you may have to patch it together.
# # http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1026143313994&call_page=TS_World&call_pageid=968332188854&call_pagepath=News/World
#
# The article make the US Military out to be Keystone Cops!
#
Not really. Interviewed by a Canadian newspaper, the American troops praise the hell out of the Canadians. I think this is what "brothers" do for each other and it shows a generous
spirit on the part of the Americans. Also, the award of Bronze Stars would indicate the praise was justified. The friendly fire story shows our targeting is not unconcerned with our
allies as they point out the bomb landed closer to the 101 than the Canadians.
Louis Boyd
# FYI, the use of dedicated .50 BMG rifles for long range precision work
# was pioneered by US civilians. In most countries this would be illegal,
# but here its still possible. Not long after .50 caliber freaks started
# showing off incredible 1000 yd groups, the US Army got interested and
# adopted some of the same rifles and, interestingly, some of the same
# precision loads. They first saw action in the Gulf War. The best
# civilian shooters have match grade bullets from Barnes that make
# standard BMG ball rounds look sick. Of course, the military would be
# reluctant to give credit where its due. - CW
If killing with a gun at long range is a sport for record the Germans hold the honors with the "Paris Gun". They got a number of kills at around 70 miles.
--
Lou Boyd
JMartin957
#Greenville, S.C., made the kill from 2,430 metres, or nearly 2 1/2
#kilometres, on the second shot.
#
#This feat is the equivalent of standing at the foot of Yonge St. and
#hitting a target in the intersection of Yonge and Wellesley Sts., just
#north of College St.
#
#The first shot blew a bag from the hand of their target, an Al Qaeda
#fighter walking on a road.
#
#"He didn't even flinch," said Bill, who spoke on condition that his
#real name not be used.
#
#"We made a correction and the next round hit exactly where we wanted
#it to. Well, a bit to the right."
#
#The kill, one of more than 20 unofficially accredited to Canadian
#snipers during Operation Anaconda in Afghanistan's Shah-i-Kot Valley,
#beat the 35-year-old record of 2,500 yards, or 2,250 metres, set by
#U.S. Marine Gunnery Sgt. Carlos Hathcock in Duc Pho, South Vietnam.
Good shooting. As I recall, though, Hathcock hit with the first round.
John Martin
N329DF
shot the rider after he tried to get away with the load of AKs and ammo
Matt Gunsch,
A&P,IA,Private Pilot
Riding member of the Arizona Precision Motorcycle Drill Team
GWRRA,NRA,GOA
Shoots4fun
and an array of equipment from all over the world." Kind of makes you wonder
why their military doesn't outfit them adequately to begin with.
We as Americans also have to remember how anti-gun the Canadian government
has become over the years, not only to US citizens, but also to their own
citizens. Look at the registration requirements. Also, remember the tax we
have to pay now, just to take guns into Canada to use to hunt. And, of course,
we US citizens cannot be trusted to bring handguns into Canada, because they
are so concealable - you know, like Contenders with 10" barrels; or S&W 629's
with 8-3/8" barrels.
Larry Miller
Hathcock's kill was with one shot.
Remember their motto, "One shot, one kill."
Larry
"Full Auto" <fulla...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:agmh5s$6ri$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
> ...
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Artic
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8854&call_pagepath=News/World
> ...
------
> ...
S.G. Hogge
cowards, but I thought he had stones like an elephant.
Trefor Thomas
<mik...@hoplite.org> wrote:
#Full Auto wrote:
##
## See this link. It's long, you may have to patch it together.
## http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1026143313994&call_page=TS_World&call_pageid=968332188854&call_pagepath=News/World
#
#The article make the US Military out to be Keystone Cops!
Well, of course!
It was printed in the Toronto Star, which I think of as the house
organ for the Liberal party of Canada. You don't expect to get
anything unbiased from them if they can possible put a pro-Liberal
slant on it, and guns (of any kind) are definitely anti-Liberal.
Trefor Thomas
--
To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem.
To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized,
merely the domesticated.
GLC1173
#In the article mention was made that the >Canadians use "British fatigues
#and an array of equipment from all over >the world." Kind of makes you wonder
#why their military doesn't outfit them >adequately to begin with.
Canuckistan's "mainstream" press now admits that their nation has very few
military snipers. Probably a lot fewer than could be rounded up as volunteers
among varmint hunters in most U.S. counties!
#We as Americans also have to remember >how anti-gun the Canadian government
#has become over the years, not only to >US citizens, but also to their own
#citizens. Look at the registration >requirements.
Canuckistan isn't just antigun - it's <I>anti-freedom.</i> Anyone else
remember their border police busting Canadians trying to sneak home American
"mainstream" dailies covering some politically-sensitive Canadian trial a few
years ago? Anyone else aware of how many Canadian dissident Web sites are
U.S.-based or U.S.-mirrored for this reason?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
<B>Dissident news - plus immigration, gun rights, nationwide weather
<I><A HREF="http://www.alamanceind.com">ALAMANCE INDEPENDENT:
official newspaper of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy</A></b></i>
Troy or Evelyn
government
# has become over the years, not only to US citizens, but also to their own
# citizens.
I'll agree with you there.
>Also, remember the tax we
# have to pay now, just to take guns into Canada to use to hunt. And, of
course,
# we US citizens cannot be trusted to bring handguns into Canada, because
they
# are so concealable - you know, like Contenders with 10" barrels; or S&W
629's
# with 8-3/8" barrels.
At least you can bring them up here. See the new regs the US set up for
foreigners (including us Canadians) to bring a gun into the US? Apply six
months in advance and see if it gets approved.
'Paramilitary' firearms are not allowed in the US for any reason. If I want
to attend a 3 gun shoot or a Service Rife shoot I can't bring my AR-15 or a
Mini-14 with me.
'Militry type firearms' are no longer allowed out of the US without an 'end
user certificate' if they are even allowed out at all. Mini-14's for example
have been banned from export to Canada by the US government.
Lastly I can't even so much as order a scope for my rifle from the US
without a 'end user certificate'. I have to pay the Canadian local gun store
for my firearm or part worth over $100, fill out a form, have the original
sent to the US for approval (and fees), have the form come back, then have
the gun store order the part for me. Months wait and extra fees. That's a US
requirement by the way.
Just some of the problems we're having up here from your end. I'm not
slamming Americians, just pointing out the stupid laws are on both sides of
the border.
Troy
Silent Sniper
Scotty
MG9MIKE
curcumstances than the supposed record beaters of this day. also they had
vastly improved weapons to use. so when it all adds up.
CRAP !!!!!!!
MIKE
byteb...@attglobal.net
wrote:
#nope, they did not beat it, IIRC Carlos hit a MOVING bicycle, using a M2, then
#shot the rider after he tried to get away with the load of AKs and ammo
#Matt Gunsch,
#A&P,IA,Private Pilot
#Riding member of the Arizona Precision Motorcycle Drill Team
#GWRRA,NRA,GOA
Yep. I just checked it in my copy before loaning it to a friend
today. That shot using the M2 was 2400 yards...
kbellis3
Machinegun modified in the field to accept scope rings and a Unertal 8x
Scope. The ammo was without a doubt ball ammo. The Canadian was using a
precision load fired from a custom built precision rifle using state of the
art optics and range finding gear. Shooting as he had been trained for
years. What Hathcock did was fairly new and unusual at the time, it was not
a technique that had been master, scripted, and technically proved by
testing and evaluation.
The only comparison here is the caliber and the distance. Everything else is
comparing apples to AK-47s.
Kyle
Not that both were not good shots, however, Hathcock's shot required a
greater degree of skill and personal experience with various arms the other
was more a matter of technical development and close to 30 years of
experimentation and development on the part of others. Basically the
Canadian guy shot farther because he stood on the shoulders of giants.
<sil...@navyseals.com> wrote in message
news:agubtj$hb3$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
> ...
Lee Manevitch
mg9...@aol.com (MG9MIKE) wrote:
# Carlos did his record under a lot different
# curcumstances than the supposed record beaters of this day. also they had
# vastly improved weapons to use
That's exactly the point I was making to a friend this past weekend. In
the 30+ years since Gunny Hathcock's record shot, we've seen amazing
edvances in firearms technology, ammunition, and ballistic software. We
have laser rangefinders to confirm our target's distance. We have
better-made, supposedly more-accurate guns. Yet with the long shot like
this it really does come down to the guy pulling the trigger, not the
equipment used. After all, it's not like that Canadian soldier had the
only modern weapon developed since Hathcock's day. It just took this
long for a good trigger man to have the opportunity to take the shot.
--
Lee
thumper
in on that bicycle & rider...;-)
Troy or Evelyn
putting down an incredible shot but I was under the impression he was ranged
in on that spot and just waited for a target to appear on that spot then
fired.
Troy
Trefor Thomas
<kbel...@linkline.com> wrote:
#Also you have to understand that Hathcock was using a standard M-2 Browning
#Machinegun modified in the field to accept scope rings and a Unertal 8x
#Scope. The ammo was without a doubt ball ammo. The Canadian was using a
#precision load fired from a custom built precision rifle using state of the
Actually, I think he borrowed American ammo, as it was so much hotter
than what he normally used. Not his normal loads.
#art optics and range finding gear. Shooting as he had been trained for
#years.
Trefor Thomas
--
To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem.
To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized,
merely the domesticated.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Bubba
as he did for that one shot" ?
Also, did Carlos have any idea that he was shooting for a record and not at
an enemy ?
Ken Marsh
Shoots4fun <shoot...@aol.com> wrote:
# In the article mention was made that the Canadians use "British fatigues
#and an array of equipment from all over the world." Kind of makes you wonder
#why their military doesn't outfit them adequately to begin with.
Not like the US, where Belgian squad automatics support tanks with
German guns and British armor... all while wearing Chinese berets. :^)
Ken.
--
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Louis Boyd
# I myself if in the same position just would have called an artillery strike
# in on that bicycle & rider...;-)
#
Thank you from an American taxpayer who has to pay for that waste of shells.
Stick with the snipers. Or better, stay out of foreign engtanglements.
--
Lou Boyd
Sam A. Kersh
wrote:
#
#Also, did Carlos have any idea that he was shooting for a record and not at
#an enemy ?
Gunny's comment when asked about his exploits was, "I was just doing my
job."
Sam A. Kersh
NRA Patron
L.E.A.A. Life Member
TSRA Life Member
GOA, JPFO, SAF
http://www.flash.net/~csmkersh/
===============================================================
Read Jeff Snyder's unabridged analysis of the S&W/HUD sellout
at http://communities.prodigy.net/sportsrec/jeffsnyder.html
Ken Marsh
#thumper wrote:
## I myself if in the same position just would have called an artillery strike
## in on that bicycle & rider...;-)
Louis Boyd <bo...@apt0.sao.arizona.edu> wrote:
#Thank you from an American taxpayer who has to pay for that waste of shells.
#Stick with the snipers.
Both have their place. More casualties have been caused by artillery
than all riflery in modern war. Who knows, that lone figure might be a
war-lord or bin Laden liuetenant worth many tons of shells. The cost of
deployment far outweighs ordnance cost. If getting the job done involves
some excessiveness, so be it. As it is, two .50 shots did the job.
# Or better, stay out of foreign engtanglements.
In general, I agree, and I dreaded getting our into Afghanistan... it
turned out better than I could have imagined... but we were sort of
forced into that one by some incident involving airplanes and buildings.
Stabilizing Afghanistan will have lasting positive effects on the world
situation for decades to come. IMHO when Geo. Washington made the
"foreign entanglements" comment, he meant taking sides between
then-superpowers. He didn't mean kicking ass against Barbary pirates or
their modern equivalents in Afghanistan.
Ken.
--
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MatQuig
<thu...@magpage.com> writes:
# myself if in the same position just would have called an artillery strike
#in on that bicycle & rider...;-)
#
Cost of "sighter" rounds, killing rounds, & man hours forthe arty stike vs:
well trained sniper. Do the math..........MatQuig
thumper
"Louis Boyd" <bo...@apt0.sao.arizona.edu> wrote in message
news:ah6a82$5jn$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# thumper wrote:
#
# # I myself if in the same position just would have called an artillery
strike
# # in on that bicycle & rider...;-)
# #
#
# Thank you from an American taxpayer who has to pay for that waste of
shells.
# --
# Lou Boyd
You do know that those same shells (after sitting in a bunker somewhere for
a few decades) are going to probably be destroyed anyway, so might as well
use them for good use. I guess you have never been in the military assigned
to a unit that has an artillery brigade attached (or near) to it, many
nights while stationed in Korea to the 4/7 Air Cav.in the eighties I fell
asleep to the constant distant "whump" of practice shells being fired on a
live fire range (perhaps "Nightmare?") somewhere. Who do you think were
paying for all those shells, Mr. Taxpayer? Besides, the original posting
was only meant as a joke, please lighten up a bit, mmkay? :-)
WVanhou237
writes:
# IMHO when Geo. Washington made the
#"foreign entanglements" comment, he meant taking sides between
#then-superpowers. He didn't mean kicking ass against Barbary pirates or
#their modern equivalents in Afghanistan.
#
Excellent comment. Geo. Washington was dead set against foreign
alliances. In which, at the time, we would have been the junior partner.
However he would have had no compuntion against kicking ass if the
exiled Tories had tried an expedition from Canada.
Bill Van Houten (USA Ret)
"No matter how hard you try, you can't throw a potato chip very far."
"Linus"
thumper
"MatQuig" <mat...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:ah92hl$3do$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# In article <ah3fe5$8h3$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu>, "thumper"
# <thu...@magpage.com> writes:
#
# # myself if in the same position just would have called an artillery
strike
# #in on that bicycle & rider...;-)
# #
#
# Cost of "sighter" rounds, killing rounds, & man hours forthe arty stike
vs:
Yeah, but compared to a good ground rumbling artillery pounding (with
bicycle & body parts flying up into the air), that surgically-clean "sniper"
hit (how should I put it?) lacks a certain "panache." (good for troop
morale, you know? ;-) ).
Red
John Unertal lay in place for more that Canadian ( who did very, very well
and deserves our thanks for the help, ) during the 'Great War' ( or as it is
mostly now called, World War One, ) for a reported three days doing his own
personal turkey shooting at the Germans who came into view. The scope that
he had to use was so horrible that he started building a far better scope
for riflemen to use. That is why the Unertal scopes were so loved by
generations of serious shooters. They were made by and for master class
shooters who made a very dangerous weapons system.
By the way, are you related to Bubba who works at the Hudson's BBQ place in
Douglasville, Georgia?
Cordially,
Red
"Bubba" <clayt...@cdepot.net> wrote in message
news:ah4eih$iol$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
> ...
long
> ...
at
> ...