In the defense of Christians
Sceadu
Christian myself, I can say that not all Christians hate anime. Somebody included the
link to one site where the ppl were saying that basically any fiction that does not mesh
perfectly with the Bible should be shunned. Well, I don't really think that's necessary,
nor do most Christians.
A good example of this is J.R.R. Tolkien, who as you know was a Christian himself, yet he
wrote fantasy books. Some ppl see 'fantasy' and fly off the handle instantly, but I do
not, and neither do a lot of Christians. Despite having 'magic,' the characters don't
invoke demons to harness power, etc. In fact, Tolkien had a creator god as part of the
story in The Silmarillion. It's not EXACTLY like the Bible, but if it were, it wouldn't
be a story. Tolkien said that he tried to portray the essence of truths in an obviously
untrue setting, because people actually understand truth more easily when it isn't covered
in the matters of real-life, which creates an instant bias. When you try to show a
message in a fake world, people are more open. Ironically, this is exactly what some
people hate about anime, when the anime presents an opposing version of truth. But for
the most part, obviously the authors of fantasy books aren't asking you to believe that
their characters or worlds actually exist. A lot of fantasy doesn't even have a message
to give, it's just for fun. And when there is a message, it's good to consider it even if
you disagree.
As a matter of fact, I could care less what imagery most anime use. Evangelion throws
around a lot of religious symbols, but what point exactly Evangelion is trying to make is
vague at best. Why get worked up about something that isn't arguing with you. Or think
about Slayers, which basically has nothing to say about anything, really. If a show
doesn't even _have_ a message, you shouldn't try to analyze it.
For shows that do have a message of some sort, maybe like Lain, I don't shun it just
because I don't agree 100%. Every day, I hear tons of opinions about all sorts of things,
many of which I don't agree with. But it's not like my ears start bleeding, and being
exposed to opposing viewpoints doesn't kill me. In fact, it only makes me more determined
in what I stand for.
At any rate, I'd appreciate it you wouldn't bash Christians merely because some hate
anime.
sceadu
Kyle Thomas Pope
<aeona...@hotmail.com.removethis> wrote:
>At any rate, I'd appreciate it you wouldn't bash Christians merely because some hate
>anime.
I don't think anyone here is bashing Christians in general. But
Christians are like any other diverse group of humanity. There is a
percentage of the Christian population composed of idiots. For the
most part your average Christian is just trying to make it through
life just like anybody else. But you have some who do things like
burning Harry Potter books or abortion clinics and claim they're doing
god's work.
I direct my attacks at the specific subgroup of Christian
Supremacists. This is the bunch that believes in Christianity Uber
Alles and feel justified in using any means necessary to bring that
about up to and including violence and murder. As they feel that we
are living in their "End Times" anyway they feel they must use
whatever methods required to spur the Second Coming.
This is the bunch that gets Taco Bell to pull their Clow Card
promotion or gets Mighty Mouse taken off the air because he sniffed a
flower. These are the people who demand that Harry Potter books be
pulled from library shelves while boycotting the movie.
Anime fans are like any other fans in that we're highly protective of
our chosen hobby. And we will protect our hobby from irrational
attack. We don't mind critics. Many of us are critics. But when
anime is condemned as the spawn of Satan by people who haven't a clue
as to what it is or the culture it comes from then you start getting
our hackles up.
-----
Kyle
"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered!" - No. 6
Ron
"Sceadu" <aeona...@hotmail.com.removethis> wrote in message
news:J3lg8.4272$JZ6.1...@dfw-read.news.verio.net...
> At any rate, I'd appreciate it you wouldn't bash Christians merely because
some hate
> anime.
>
> sceadu
>
>
group (that would be,
uh, counterproductive, ya know ^_^). But I also recognise that whatever
group exists,
whatever religion (or non-religion), gender, race, culture or whatever,
there are gonna be
a few nuts in the mix. If I hammer people like Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson
and their
ilk, it is not because they are Christians but because I believe that they
are idiots (read
one of my columns at The Briefcase Fulla Rant on that subject).
Ethan Hammond
--
All Purpose Cultural Randomness
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/apcr/index.html
Pete Holland Jr.
> Eh, this is actually a followup to an earlier thread. <truncated for sake of space> At any
> rate, I'd appreciate it you wouldn't bash Christians merely because some hate anime.
I have to side with the other posters and say that we haven't been bashing Christians in
general. I'm a Christian myself (surprise, surprise). My anger is not at Christianity
itself. By and large, most Christians I run into are fair and open minded folk. But there
are those that make you stop and lock up.
Example: my job recently had a kids' Christmas party. Because there wasn't that much money
in the budget, they were looking for things that were cheap. I suggested a Pokemon card game
tournament among other things. When the person who usually runs the activities committee
couldn't attend a meeting, one woman on the staff got all the games excluded. My response was
one of personal anarchy--I'm on the activities committee, I don't need anyone's permission to
be there, I'm bringing the games anyway. It was eventually settled that I would run the
Pokemon game by myself. As this came up in the meeting, the woman who two weeks earlier
succeeded in bouncing all games said to herself but loud enough for everyone else to hear,
"Well, I heard Pokemon was Satanic. My kids have a pack of cards and they will remain
unopened."
I'm sure you can guess my next question: If it's so flippin' Satanic, why don't you get rid
of the cards?
I should note she's changed her stance. My gaming table was swarming with kids and they were
perfect little angels. They weren't rude, they didn't push and shove, they behaved and played
well. (I outdrew Santa Claus. Parents were begging the kids to come away from the gaming
table and PLEASE get your picture taken.) But the fact remains the only logic she presented
for excluding the game was based on a misinterpretation, one she didn't even have herself
since all she went on was she "heard" it was Satanic.
Where the "Christian bashing" gets in is that these people are going around making statements
and insisting people follow them where there are one of two problems. 1) They have not done
their homework and criticizing things that have nothing to do with reality, or 2) their
arguements can be reduced to absurdity so easily, you wonder why they bother. Case in point:
I went to Toys R Us to get a new game and one of my cousin's kids wanted a cap gun. I asked
if they had cap guns and was told, no, those are too violent. I pointed out I was there to
buy Metal Gear Solid 2, and they're worried that cap guns are too violent? The only
acceptable response is one of disbelief.
So while I see your point about Christian bashing, I don't recall anyone going after anyone
except those who use the pulpit to reach and pluck the strings that hold the world. People
who do that deserve bashing, whatever their religious or political affiliation.
Dobre utka,
Pete Holland Jr.
Tom Mathews
Ron wrote:
URL please?
I don't bash Christians, I bash the Fundies(the extremists. Jack Chick being a
big one. Along with 700 Club and others of their ilk)
Shadow6865
SNIP original posts:
Unlike most people who responded to this thread I am not a Christain.
However I have many friends who are practcing Christains of various sects from
Roman Catholic to Greek Orthodox to Presbyterian. I am also an arch-liberal and
an arch supporter of the Bill of Rights especially the first amendment. So my
problems with Christains are the fundies (except the Amish who are harmless and
leave everyone alone.) People like Pat and Jerry who get on TV and blame 9/11
on the "liberals, pagans, homosexuals, feminists, democrats, et al." Those
people are not very good for the image of your religion.
Shin chan
Doctor Chibi-Moon
Sceadu wrote:
> Eh, this is actually a followup to an earlier thread. I wanted to mention that, being a
> Christian myself, I can say that not all Christians hate anime. Somebody included the
> link to one site where the ppl were saying that basically any fiction that does not mesh
> perfectly with the Bible should be shunned. Well, I don't really think that's necessary,
> nor do most Christians.
Just the person I've been looking for... as a Christian, what do you think of Trigun? ^__^ I'm
not a religious person myself, but I noticed a lot of interesting Christian-esque imagery in
that series, and a lot of it more subtle than just the inclusion of a priest character. I've
been trying to find a Christian to ask for a perspective on it...
--Brenda
Metlhd3138
ultraviolent death metal. You see, it makes me happy, which cant be a good
thing (i listen to DM more for the guitars and drumming than the awful vocals)
and i realize that its ALL fantasy, and i dont take it seriously at all. I just
try to be a good person and have faith in God and Jesus.
Brian Shea
> around a lot of religious symbols, but what point exactly Evangelion is trying to make is
> vague at best. Why get worked up about something that isn't arguing with you. Or think
> about Slayers, which basically has nothing to say about anything, really. If a show
> doesn't even _have_ a message, you shouldn't try to analyze it.
>
> For shows that do have a message of some sort, maybe like Lain, I don't shun it just
> because I don't agree 100%. Every day, I hear tons of opinions about all sorts of things,
> many of which I don't agree with. But it's not like my ears start bleeding, and being
> exposed to opposing viewpoints doesn't kill me. In fact, it only makes me more determined
> in what I stand for.
Good, this is the opinion ALL Christians should have(not to mention
every other religon) when it comes to harmless entertainment.
Especially a show like Eva, for with all its controversy doesn't bash
or criticize religon at all. Back when I was a Christian (left for a
matter totally unrelated to this issue) nothing upset me more than the
kind of people who bashed these things. Not just because they're
imposing on other people's rights, but it would be extremely insulting
to me as a Christian. What does it say about my faith (and everyone
else's) if entertainment is harmful to our faith? It would show that
we didn't exactly have that much faith in the first place.
fal...@bset.com
However, I'm one of those who believe in keeping tabs on the
Fundamentalists and tend to be pretty vocal in that aspect. I grew up in
a Fundamentalist church so I know how they think and what their
motivations are. Obviously, the majority of Christianity aren't like
this, but there are well-meaning followers who get sucked in by
Fundamentalist rabble-rousers and their proclaimations without checking
things for themselves. My posts on this area aren't meant to bash my
brothers and sisters in Christ (except for the Fundamentalist
rabble-rousers who do need some sense knocked into them with a 2x4), but
to make my fellow anime fans aware of the threat that the extremists pose
and the fact that they will never be satisified short of a totally
Christian nation.
--
Peter L. Ward
fal...@best.com
ICQ# 100145303
Studio Stormfalcon: http://falcon.best.vwh.net
"I'm here, so I'll be with you forever."
- Iwakura Lain
Arbane the Terrible
> People like Pat and
> Jerry who get on TV and blame 9/11 on the "liberals, pagans, homosexuals,
> feminists, democrats, et al." Those people are not very good for the image
> of your religion.
As that great religious thinker Calvin once said, "It's hard to be
religious when certain people are never struck by bolts of lightning."
--
"Remember, the plural of 'moron' is 'focus group'."
-- James A. Wolf
Ron
"Tom Mathews" <dang...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3C822516...@earthlink.net...
>
> URL please?
>
> I don't bash Christians, I bash the Fundies(the extremists. Jack Chick
being a
> big one. Along with 700 Club and others of their ilk)
>
Gomen. Forgot to add it
http://relic.globalredirect.com/homeoftherelic/page_1.html
This will take you to the front end of the Briefcase Fulla Rant part of
my webpage; the current one is about the various efforts against "violent"
games, and their past attempts against comics, but my list of past columns
will be the next link
on the page. I think that the exact column I touched on this was on or
around Sept. 20.
It was shortly after the time that Falwell tried to pin the blame for Sept.
11 on various
groups he disliked (gays, abortionists, fill in the blanks) with Pat
Robertson
in full agreement. When you see a pic of a pissed Asuka Langley, you will be
there ^_^.
And as I recall, Jack Chick isn't even a licensed preacher, tho' he paints
himself
as one (and his stupid comics all end the same anyway ^_^).
deep within the bowels of aohell
wiggles fingers over the keyboard>
Heh, I love disscusions like this..
I consider myself a Christain I suppose. I was brought up in the chruch and
all and it has always been a part of my life. I say "suppose" because there
are some things, Dogma mostly, that I strongly disagree with. I grew up in the
United Methodist chruch and yes, even Protestants have there Dogma, but I won't
get into all that now.
I like anime. I rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrreally like anime!!!! I have ever sinse I was
little. Methodists are pretty easy going, so that has been good for me. If
I'm at my chruch on a weekday, like for a Wensday dinner, and I am wearing a
T-shirt that has an anime character on it.. 99% of the time nobody says
anything to me about it. The only times that anybody did say anything that
wasn't bashing anime either. Just questions, asked kind of jokingly, from a
few older people like,
"Who is that funny looking character?" (ha ha)
They are not bashing it, they just don't know anything about anime and are just
trying to make idle chit-chat with me.
Now about Fundamentalists
(don't know if I spelled it right, but don't really care)
I can't stand them!! Some of what they teach is even dangerous. Some of these
people are really close to beings terrorists thenselves. What I mean is: What
if some of the events that are going on in the world pushed some of them over
the edge and they decided it was time to fight and they went around killing
every person of Middle Eastern desent they could find? I'm NOT saying all
Fund, are like this at all, it's just that sometimes it won't take much to push
people to action, esepecally when it comes to religion.
Even the thing, that somebody mentioned, about them getting Taco Bell to stop
plans for their Clow Cards promotion, I think is going to far.
They seem to forget that this is a FREE country! They enforced their personal
beliefs on the Taco Bell resturants. What's the next step? Not letting
someone that is a Buddist eat at Taco Bell because you don't want your children
exposed to it? Or some other crazy reason. There should be a law that says
that private groups should not be able to bring pressure to bear to influence
corparations in any way. Taco Bell is here to serve EVERY American. What if a
I wanted to collect the Clow Card series that they were going to release? (I'm
sure a lot of people would've wanted to) I can't now, basicly because..
The Fund. said I can't because it's bad for me.
There is something very seriously wrong with that and I hope that most normal
people, Christans included, would recognize this. It's not up to them to
decide for us. It's up to ourselves, and to the parents that have young
children to decide wheter or not they want their kids to have it or not. If
the Fund. didn't like it then why didn't they tell all there followers to just
not buy the stuff? Boycot it if they wanted to. Why should we get left out
because of what they don't like.
One more thing, kind of OT though..
>As a matter of fact, I could care less what imagery most anime use.
>Evangelion throws
>around a lot of religious symbols, but what point exactly Evangelion is
>trying to make is
>vague at best.
Actually, it does make a point.
*Hint: It doesn't have anything to do with the religious aspects of the show.
-
Alan
"Hey Mister, this here's the stairway to heaven. You know that don't cha'?"
"Obnoxious little frog." - Spike, Cowboy BeBop
Sceadu
^__^ I'm
> not a religious person myself, but I noticed a lot of interesting Christian-esque
imagery in
> that series, and a lot of it more subtle than just the inclusion of a priest character.
I've
> been trying to find a Christian to ask for a perspective on it...
Hard for me to comment, since I've only seen the first four episodes. But my perspective
was that it was just a comedy. Heh, maybe I should see more.
sceadu
Steve Brandon
against anime. Most of the major Christian pressure groups have been
pretty silent on the issue. Excluding kiddy anime like Pokemon, anime
fandom exists below the radar of these groups. Even regarding Pokemon,
if you examine their objections closely, they were more against the
card game, which to them resembled too closely more "occultic" RPGs
like Magic the Gathering than they were concerned with the cartoon.
The AFA has dick squat on their page about anime; the Cardcaptors/Taco
Bell controversy was strictly about the Tarot-like cards being sold to
children; that the cards were taken from a Japanese cartoon series is
just a minor esoteric little issue for them. Since Taco Bell
capitulated, they haven't said anything about Cardcaptors itself.
Plus, I don't think the AFA has nearly as much influence these days as
they did in the mid-80s, largely because the kids TV market is a lot
more fractured today than it was in the days of the Smurfs, He-Man and
the Ralph Bakshi "coke-snorting" version of Mighty Mouse. Most AFA
types don't even subscribe to the Cartoon Network, which is why you
haven't heard a peep from these people about Cowboy Bebop, and why I
wouldn't worry about a backlash against Neon Genesis Evangelion should
it be shown on CN, unless, of course, this leads to Evangelion Kids
Meals at Taco Bell. According to RelapsedCatholic.com , which
frequently monitors the AFA's pressure campaigns, Taco Bell received
most of the complaints from parents before the AFA's initial report on
the Tarot Cards, which means most of the calls came from concerned
parents who called because of their own sincere concerns about the
cards, not because they were taking marching orders from any pressure
group.
Focus on the Family ran a couple of negative articles and reviews
about anime in 1996 and 1997 (
http://www.family.org/pplace/youandteens/a0007683.cfm
http://www.family.org/pplace/pi/films/a0004779.html
http://www.family.org/pplace/pi/films/a0004778.html ; the dates on
these pages are misleading: they reflect the dates they modified the
pages to keep the links to their other pages up to date), but haven't
really had anything to say since, aside from this recent review of
Dragonball Z ( http://www.family.org/pplace/pi/tv/a0018152.html ).
Then there's Berit Kjos, whose homepage Crossroad.to many anime fans
identify as Ground Zero of the (phantom) backlash. What she did was
she wrote a couple of articles about Pokemon and Digimon, pointing out
the occult influences, a couple of years back (her Pokemon articles
made the AFA homepage and even Time magazine), but, again, she hasn't
really said all that much since. She has "Comments" pages for shows
like Gundam Wing, Neon Genesis Evangelion, Sailor Moon and Dragonball
Z, but this is only because anime fans write her long, angry rants, in
many cases about shows she's never discussed. And she is not
interested in discussing the merits of said anime, all she does is
nitpick the frequently non-diplomatic language of the letter writers
looking for evidence as to how they've been influenced by the occult
and the New World Order aganda of groups like UNESCO. It's really a
waste of time writing her (about anime-related issues at least); I
don't see why so many anime fans still bother.
The only other Christian page I know of that writes about anime to any
degree is ChristianAnswers.net , and when they do review anime,
they're just as likely to like it (see this positieve review of Kiki's
Delivery Service: http://christiananswers.net/spotlight/movies/2001/kikisdeliveryservice.html
; yes, some Christians do realize that the witchcraft seen in the film
is strictly of the unrealistic cartoon variety.) and dislike it (see
their review of Princess Mononoke at
http://christiananswers.net/spotlight/movies/2000/princessmononoke.html
, though it's not entirely negative. Reviewer Ben Bertsen does say
that it is "to date, the best animated film made" at one point in his
review after all.). Their TV section (
http://christiananswers.net/spotlight/tv/ ) has more of the
stereotypical "fire and brimstone" sort of comments about anime you'd
expect (and some positive comments too), but this is because they
don't actually review TV shows themselves, they leave it up to their
reviewers.\
If anyone knows of any other Christian site that discusses anime, in a
negative or positive light, I'd love to hear about it.
Steve Brandon
Ten...@canada.com
Nargun
> I'm Christian and I love anime.
Ah! Unrequited love.
Unless anybody knows any anime that loves christians...
Louis ^_^
--
Louis Patterson l.patt...@ugrad.unimelb.edu.au
"If you are asked to pass the butter, always remember to pass
the plate as well" - Lennie Lower, "Etiquette without tears"
Kyle Thomas Pope
wrote:
<And there was much snippage>
>If anyone knows of any other Christian site that discusses anime, in a
>negative or positive light, I'd love to hear about it.
What I find refreshing and hopeful about these websites is that the
positive support for anime was intelligently presented by some fairly
young people who seem to know a lot about anime. The responses
supporting Cardcaptors seemed to condemn the US dub and praised the
original Japanese version while being fully aware of the elements that
were being edited out of the US version. Makes you wonder just for
who's benefit these shows are being edited. It's got to be the
parents because the kids don't seem to mind.
Tom Mathews
Nargun wrote:
> On Sun, 3 Mar 2002, Shin chan wrote:
>
> > I'm Christian and I love anime.
>
> Ah! Unrequited love.
>
> Unless anybody knows any anime that loves christians...
Superbook, Flying House
Frank Raymond Michaels
<lou...@student.unimelb.edu.au> wrote:
>On Sun, 3 Mar 2002, Shin chan wrote:
>
>> I'm Christian and I love anime.
>
>Ah! Unrequited love.
>
>Unless anybody knows any anime that loves christians...
Funny you should mention that -- I just received the first two tapes
of _In the Beginning_ -- stories from the Bible done by Osamu Tezuka.
(This is another series I heard about here in RAAM -- arigato!)
I viewed them, and forwarded them to the person in charge of Sunday
school at my church. I wouldn't give it the highest marks as an anime
-- the animation is boilerplate, and all the English-language VAs are
all trying to impersonate Charleton Heston -- but they're great fun
and I think it would be a great way to introduce kids to the Bible.
If our Sunday school committee likes them I'll order the other tapes
piecemeal (there 26 in all) and many children will get their first
exposure to the Bible through anime. Imagine that.
-------
FRM
Skeleton Man
news:Pine.OSF.4.10.102030...@cassius.its.unimelb.edu.au...
> On Sun, 3 Mar 2002, Shin chan wrote:
>
> > I'm Christian and I love anime.
>
> Ah! Unrequited love.
>
> Unless anybody knows any anime that loves christians...
>
Hellsing?
--
Skeleton Man
Kevin Yong
"deep within the bowels of aohell" <wolfhu...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020303170749...@mb-fu.aol.com...
---snip---
> Even the thing, that somebody mentioned, about them getting Taco Bell to
stop
> plans for their Clow Cards promotion, I think is going to far.
> They seem to forget that this is a FREE country! They enforced their
personal
> beliefs on the Taco Bell resturants. What's the next step? Not letting
> someone that is a Buddist eat at Taco Bell because you don't want your
children
> exposed to it? Or some other crazy reason. There should be a law that
says
> that private groups should not be able to bring pressure to bear to
influence
> corparations in any way.
You mean the way anime fans try "forcing their personal beliefs"
on Viz or ADV regarding translation, overlays, dubs, pricing, and
methods of DVD subtitling? It's a bit hypocritical to say that religious
fundamentalists (along with many many other groups on both
the Right and the Left) somehow shouldn't be "allowed" to boycott
products, or write letters of complaint, or urge others to join them
in these activities when we anime fans do the exact same things.
--- Kevin Yong
Christian, comic book geek, anime fan
DrkSole96
As far as Pat Robertson's comments concerning 9/11, Abraham Lincoln once
remarked that the Civil War was God's punishment for America's tolerance
towards slavery.
Maybe, or maybe not, but it if it makes the USA do some self examination, and
change for the better, at least some good would come of it.
(Trigun Spoiler Space)
Trigun is a wonderful anime to look at from a Christian viewpoint. The
voiceover to the trailer for "And between the wasteland and sky." is one of the
most consice summaries of Christ's message that I've ever seen. It states the
condition of sinners and the path to salvation.
The episode itself also deals with the idea of redemption. The little kid on
the show states that he and the Bad Lads are too far gone, and asks what can
they do. Vash responds that all you can do is start over and keep going.
This goes is something Jesus repeats many times in the Gospels. A sinner can,
no matter how unclean, can reject sin and be saved through faith in God. The
sinner is not absolved from the consequences of their sins, but they may make
the most of whatever life they have left, and can look forward to life eternal
in Paradise.
Vash's actions in other episodes also highlight how difficult it can be to do
the right thing, as opposed to the easy thing. Vash constantly works harder
and smart to avoid killing or causing harm, but he suffers immensly because of
this. With his skill and abilities, it would be so easy for him to gun down
all who oppose him, but he always seeks the to find the solution that allows
the most people to live.
Nicholas D. Wolfwood is an example of the opposite approach. He to tries to do
good, but he always takes the easy and short way to solve problems. His
methods to achieve results, but to what end? Nichola's luggage, filled with
the tools he uses, is both the metaphorical and litera Cross he must bear.
In the episodes "Alternative" and "Paradise" he must come to grips with his
Gospel and it's consequences. He finally realises the pain that his methods
cause, and that they eventually cause him to contradict himself. He has
dedicated his life to children and ends up killing one due to his take no
prisoners attitude. When uses Vash's method and does not kill Chapel, he had
redeemed himself, even though it costs him his life. His confession in the
church is another example of the Christian message of redemption and salvation.
It's also an immensly powerful scene, in my opinion.
Vash's methods, while superior to Wolfwood's, are not without their flaws. It
could be argued that if he had acted more decisivly, and killed Knives right
off, or Legato and the Gung-Ho guns, then the people of the towns Knives killed
would still be alive, or the people on the hovering Seeds ship would not have
crashed, or the people of July would not have been made destitute.
Through the series, Vash develops and goes beyond the somewhat simplistic
ideals of Rem. By the end, he has found that he may go beyond her limits, but
still honor her and what she believed in. He become more mature and realises
that sometimes, violence and death can be an answer, but they should used only
in the last possible resort, and only in extreme circumstances. For example,
though Knives is extremely dangerous, Vash takes it upon himself to save Knives
and reform him. This may be an impossible task, but Vash is willing to expend
himself in the attempt.
Perhaps I'm projecting more into Trigun than what is actually there, but the
fact that the series raises these questions, and stimulates this kind of
examination, makes it one of the best anime's I've ever seen.
Love and Peace!
Donovan Moser
DrkS...@aol.com
Fish Eye no Miko
I'm an atheist, but I don't bash Christians. In my posts, I'm careful to
point out that it's the Fundies that annoy me. And it's not even that,
it's the one who try to impose their beliefs on others, try to get things
banned or at least taken off of tv, etc. Heck, there are people on the
left who do this too, if something's not politically correct.
Catherine Johnson.
--
dis "able" to reply
"There are fifteen different kinds of animation in this movie--and they all
suck."
-Christina Holland, stomptokyo.com, on Ralph Bakshi's animated version
of _Lord of the Rings_.
Steve Brandon
> The only other Christian page I know of that writes about anime to any
> http://christiananswers.net/spotlight/tv/ ) has more of the
> stereotypical "fire and brimstone" sort of comments about anime you'd
> expect (and some positive comments too), but this is because they
> don't actually review TV shows themselves, they leave it up to their
> reviewers.\
Oops, that should have read "they leave it up to their readers".
Perhaps I should have written "they only post comments they receive
from their readers".
Steve Brandon
Ten...@canada.com
Steve Brandon
> If anyone knows of any other Christian site that discusses anime, in a
> negative or positive light, I'd love to hear about it.
Other than the various anti-Pokemon sites, I mean. I've seen several
of them. They're just too inane for me to catalogue (and they all
pretty much repeat the same points made by Berit Kjos on her site,
Crossroad.to).
Steve Brandon
Ten...@canada.com
Kyle Thomas Pope
wrote:
>You mean the way anime fans try "forcing their personal beliefs"
>on Viz or ADV regarding translation, overlays, dubs, pricing, and
>methods of DVD subtitling? It's a bit hypocritical to say that religious
>fundamentalists (along with many many other groups on both
>the Right and the Left) somehow shouldn't be "allowed" to boycott
>products, or write letters of complaint, or urge others to join them
>in these activities when we anime fans do the exact same things.
Anime fans aren't pushing for censorship. The complaints we lodge are
to get as much information from an anime as possible by railing
against bad dubs, bad translations and overlays. These are all
quality issues much as demanding safe cars and food are. Christian
Supremacist complaints are designed to remove from society beliefs and
ideas with which they disapprove.
Farix
news:20020303170749...@mb-fu.aol.com...
> wiggles fingers over the keyboard>
>
> Heh, I love disscusions like this..
>
> I consider myself a Christain I suppose. I was brought up in the chruch
and
> all and it has always been a part of my life. I say "suppose" because
there
> are some things, Dogma mostly, that I strongly disagree with. I grew up
in the
> United Methodist chruch and yes, even Protestants have there Dogma, but I
won't
> get into all that now.
As a Christian, you shouldn't worry about dogma to begin with. Christianity
is support to be a very simple faith. It's man and his dogma that has made
it complicated religion that forces itself onto others.
Farix
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----
Steve Brandon
> If anyone knows of any other Christian site that discusses anime, in a
> negative or positive light, I'd love to hear about it.
Again replying to myself, I'm also aware of minor legal hassles given
to a few Texas comic book stores over complaints regarding minor
nudity in the Dragonball manga
http://www.cbldf.org/pr/000317-texas-dragballz.shtml and mature anime
videos like Akira and Overfiend
http://www.cbldf.org/pr/000317-texas-anime.shtml . These complaints
were from lone wingnuts who don't appear, from the information given,
to be affiliated with any Christian pressure groups, though. The Comic
Book Legal Defense Fund never followed up on these articles, so I
don't know what happened.
(The Comic Book Legal Defense Fund also cites in their research
bibliography http://www.cbldf.org/research/biblio-90s.shtml an article
entitled "Drawn By the Darkness" by Montreal science fiction writer
Victor Shukov which appeared in the January 17th, 1999 issue of the
Montreal Gazette. I remember reading that article; his daughter had
bought an issue of Mixxzine because she liked Sailor Moon. When Mr.
Shukov examined the magazine for himself, he was horrified by the
graphic violence in one of the other manga (I think it was Parasyte),
so he did some research at a comic book store, and wrote the Gazette
article decrying the darkness, negativity, sexuality and violence
present in much of today's comics. He made a couple of heinous
generalities, but it's his opinion and he should be free to express
it. The Comic Book Legal Defense Fund called it "censorship"; I call
it "guy expressing an opinion". Wouldn't it be "censorship" if Mr.
Shukov was not allowed to express concern over comics, no matter how
valid or invalid the CBLDF may feel his views are?)
Steve Brandon
Ten...@canada.com
Ethan Hammond
>
> On Sun, 3 Mar 2002, Shin chan wrote:
>
> > I'm Christian and I love anime.
>
> Ah! Unrequited love.
>
> Unless anybody knows any anime that loves christians...
Bastard if you count sex with angels. *shrugs*
--
All Purpose Cultural Randomness
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/apcr/index.html
Robert Hutchinson
> Kevin Yong wrote:
> >You mean the way anime fans try "forcing their personal beliefs"
> >on Viz or ADV regarding translation, overlays, dubs, pricing, and
> >methods of DVD subtitling? It's a bit hypocritical to say that religious
> >fundamentalists (along with many many other groups on both
> >the Right and the Left) somehow shouldn't be "allowed" to boycott
> >products, or write letters of complaint, or urge others to join them
> >in these activities when we anime fans do the exact same things.
>
> myself.
>
> When Christians say they don't want Tarot cards in anime, their intention is
> that *nobody* be allowed to see them, because they think that they are evil,
> and evil things should be forbidden even to willing customers.
>
> If companies produced a "special overlayed edition" (perhaps by using
> branching so they don't need to make separate disks) while still selling
> non-overlayed versions, I wouldn't care if anyone bought it. If companies
> produced special no-card kids' meals, sold them to the fundamentalists, and
> let all the other kids still get cards, you can bet the Christian groups
> wouldn't be satisfied.
Very true.
Has no bearing on what was being argued, but very true.
--
Robert Hutchinson |
| "Butterflies are real asses."
| -- Conan O'Brien
|
Robert Hutchinson
> Kevin Yong wrote:
> >You mean the way anime fans try "forcing their personal beliefs"
> >on Viz or ADV regarding translation, overlays, dubs, pricing, and
> >methods of DVD subtitling? It's a bit hypocritical to say that religious
> >fundamentalists (along with many many other groups on both
> >the Right and the Left) somehow shouldn't be "allowed" to boycott
> >products, or write letters of complaint, or urge others to join them
> >in these activities when we anime fans do the exact same things.
>
> Anime fans aren't pushing for censorship. The complaints we lodge are
> to get as much information from an anime as possible by railing
> against bad dubs, bad translations and overlays. These are all
> quality issues much as demanding safe cars and food are. Christian
> Supremacist complaints are designed to remove from society beliefs and
> ideas with which they disapprove.
So, they shouldn't be allowed to complain, then?
--
Where are the hidden codewords in Kevin's post that I'm missing?
Kyle Thomas Pope
<ser...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>So, they shouldn't be allowed to complain, then?
They are free to complain all they want. That's their right. But
when they act to deprive people outside of their group of a product or
service simply because they disapprove of it they've crossed a line.
It's your right to protest in front of an abortion clinic. It is not
your right to burn it down. A little line a lot of Christian
Supremacists don't seem to recognize.
If certain Christians don't like Clow Cards they can decline them.
Not everybody on this planet is a Christian and not all Christians
hold to the same dogmas. But there are those out for power guided by
the belief that Christianity must eventually supersede all other
belief systems on this planet. Christian history has amply
demonstrated that force has never been discounted as a means of
attaining this end. From the frequency with which they hold book,
record and CD burnings you'd think they'd never studied history.
The final analysis is that when Christian groups start agitating for
something that other people are harmlessly enjoying to be banned then
my red flags go up. People who've convinced themselves that god is on
their side have shown themselves capable of anything, no matter how
horrific.
Chaos Dukemon
>
> > "Sceadu" <aeona...@hotmail.com.removethis> wrote in message
> > news:J3lg8.4272$JZ6.1...@dfw-read.news.verio.net...
because
> > some hate
> > > anime.
> > >
> > > sceadu
> > >
> > >
> > As a Christian myself, the last thing I would do is bash Christians as a
> > group (that would be,
> > uh, counterproductive, ya know ^_^). But I also recognise that whatever
> > group exists,
> > whatever religion (or non-religion), gender, race, culture or whatever,
> > there are gonna be
> > a few nuts in the mix. If I hammer people like Jerry Falwell, Pat
Robertson
> > and their
> > ilk, it is not because they are Christians but because I believe that
they
> > are idiots (read
> > one of my columns at The Briefcase Fulla Rant on that subject).
>
> URL please?
>
> I don't bash Christians, I bash the Fundies(the extremists. Jack Chick
being a
> big one. Along with 700 Club and others of their ilk)
>
HAW HAW HAW.
--
Yuki
n.-
Doctor Chibi-Moon
Sceadu wrote:
> Hard for me to comment, since I've only seen the first four episodes. But my perspective
> was that it was just a comedy. Heh, maybe I should see more.
Ooh. You *must* see more. It doesn't really get going until about ten episodes in, and it can
turn on a dime when you least expect it.
--Brenda
David Watson
> Funny you should mention that -- I just received the first two tapes
> of _In the Beginning_ -- stories from the Bible done by Osamu Tezuka.
> (This is another series I heard about here in RAAM -- arigato!)
You're welcome.
> I viewed them, and forwarded them to the person in charge of Sunday
> school at my church. I wouldn't give it the highest marks as an anime
> -- the animation is boilerplate, and all the English-language VAs are
> all trying to impersonate Charleton Heston -- but they're great fun
> and I think it would be a great way to introduce kids to the Bible.
>
> If our Sunday school committee likes them I'll order the other tapes
> piecemeal (there 26 in all)
25, according to the Right Stuf.
> and many children will get their first
> exposure to the Bible through anime. Imagine that.
And I can't think of a better way of saying "up yours" to uptight Fundies
who think that anime is evil.
Watson
Escaped Catholic.
--
Dave Watson, Severed Heads Liberation Front (_Stretcher_ CD-R--sevcom.com)
Frezier Balzoff (aka Ottawa), Ontario, Canada Email--shlf [at] ncf [dot] ca
My music and anime webpage: http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Alley/4207/
Viz *didn't* treat Video Girl Ai right on DVD. So boycott Viz Video.
Robert Hutchinson
> Robert Hutchinson wrote:
> >So, they shouldn't be allowed to complain, then?
>
> They are free to complain all they want. That's their right.
The question that started this branch of the thread:
"There should be a law that says that private groups should not be able
to bring pressure to bear to influence corparations in any way."
Kevin responds that anime fans bring pressure to bear to influence
corporations as well.
Both you and Ken somehow read this as an argument that anime fans and
fundamentalists are equally justified in the complaints they make, rather
than what it actually is, an argument that it's impossible to only
eliminate "bad pressure."
And here we are.
--
Fish Eye no Miko
news:3C82D8...@worldnet.att.net...
> Nargun wrote:
> > On Sun, 3 Mar 2002, Shin chan wrote:
> >
> > > I'm Christian and I love anime.
> >
> > Ah! Unrequited love.
> >
> > Unless anybody knows any anime that loves christians...
>
> Bastard if you count sex with angels. *shrugs*
Well, in that case, how about _Earthian_? Or does sex between angels not
count?
How about _Angel Sanctuary_?
Catherine Johnson.
--
dis "able" to reply
"This is Precious Roy, and you kids better pay for that lap dance!"
_Precious Roy, _Sifl & Olly_.
Fata Morgana
>
> > I'm Christian and I love anime.
>
> Ah! Unrequited love.
>
> Unless anybody knows any anime that loves christians...
>
> Louis ^_^
Wouldn't "Saint Tail" count? :p Or, speaking of nuns, how 'bout "One
Pound Gospel"? (assuming you're including manga on this)
Fata Morgana
deep within the bowels of aohell
>fundamentalists are equally justified in the complaints they make, rather
>than what it actually is, an argument that it's impossible to only
>eliminate "bad pressure."
>
>And here we are.
>
Did I say it was impossible to only eliminate "bad" pressure.. No, I didn't.
That is why I said there should be a law against it. An example of "good"
pressure would be a Fund. or similar group that sent a letter to a US company
that was non-theatening, and politely and clearly explained their feelings on
the subject. Also, as long as it didn't tell the company what to do.
-
Alan
"Hey Mister, this here's the stairway to heaven. You know that don't cha'?"
"Obnoxious little frog." - Spike, Cowboy BeBop
deep within the bowels of aohell
>Not everybody on this planet is a Christian and not all Christians
>hold to the same dogmas. But there are those out for power guided by
>the belief that Christianity must eventually supersede all other
>belief systems on this planet. Christian history has amply
>demonstrated that force has never been discounted as a means of
>attaining this end. From the frequency with which they hold book,
>record and CD burnings you'd think they'd never studied history.
I'm glad you mentioned the thing about Christian history. I thought about
mentioning something but I didn't because I couldn't think of a good way to put
it, besides giving a whole history lesson. ^_^
Ethan Hammond
>
> "Ethan Hammond" <esha...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:3C82D8...@worldnet.att.net..
>
> > > On Sun, 3 Mar 2002, Shin chan wrote:
> > >
> > > > I'm Christian and I love anime.
> > >
> > > Ah! Unrequited love.
> > >
> > > Unless anybody knows any anime that loves christians...
> >
> > Bastard if you count sex with angels. *shrugs*
>
> Well, in that case, how about _Earthian_? Or does sex between angels not
> count?
> How about _Angel Sanctuary_?
I think it has to be more than just angels, but actual biblical figures.
The angel Dark Schneider gets his jollies with is Michael, albiet a female
version, but she does have the holy sword of fire so its accurate except
for the gender. *nods*
Nu
<89D23EFEDD47F829.EF340DC9...@lp.airnews.net>:
>On 3 Mar 2002 14:35:40 -0800, Kiyon...@hotmail.com (Steve Brandon)
>wrote:
>
><And there was much snippage>
>
>>If anyone knows of any other Christian site that discusses anime, in a
>>negative or positive light, I'd love to hear about it.
>
>What I find refreshing and hopeful about these websites is that the
>positive support for anime was intelligently presented by some fairly
>young people who seem to know a lot about anime. The responses
>supporting Cardcaptors seemed to condemn the US dub and praised the
>original Japanese version while being fully aware of the elements that
>were being edited out of the US version. Makes you wonder just for
>who's benefit these shows are being edited. It's got to be the
>parents because the kids don't seem to mind.
>
A good point. Some people believe that the Anti-Christ will lead a One
World Government that'll help bring about the end of the world and that the
Earth & universe were created no more than 10,000 years ago and so on and
so forth. But then, many of these same people will argue that the kiddies
must be protected because children need help telling fantasy apart from
reality. If that's not irony, I don't know what is.
Robert Hutchinson
> >Both you and Ken somehow read this as an argument that anime fans and
> >fundamentalists are equally justified in the complaints they make, rather
> >than what it actually is, an argument that it's impossible to only
> >eliminate "bad pressure."
> >
> >And here we are.
>
> Did I say it was impossible to only eliminate "bad" pressure.. No, I didn't.
Of course you didn't. Kevin did.
> That is why I said there should be a law against it.
If being stupid and annoying was criminal, Usenet would be quite a
different place by now.
Robert Hutchinson
> Robert Hutchinson wrote:
> >> If companies produced a "special overlayed edition" (perhaps by using
> >> branching so they don't need to make separate disks) while still selling
> >> non-overlayed versions, I wouldn't care if anyone bought it. If companies
> >> produced special no-card kids' meals, sold them to the fundamentalists, and
> >> let all the other kids still get cards, you can bet the Christian groups
> >> wouldn't be satisfied.
> >Very true.
> >Has no bearing on what was being argued, but very true.
>
>
> The argument was basically "anime fans do the same thing as the Christians
> by objecting to anime that they don't like".
No, Ken. The argument was "banning complaints and boycotts by Christians
and not banning complaints and boycotts by anime fans is hypocritical."
No comment was made on the legitimacy of the complaints and boycotts. The
logic of banning them was the subject.
Fata Morgana
> Just the person I've been looking for...
Perhaps I'm a better person to ask, since I'm a Catholic _and_ I've
seen most of Trigun.
>as a Christian, what do you think of Trigun? ^__^ I'm
> not a religious person myself, but I noticed a lot of interesting Christian-esque imagery in
> that series, and a lot of it more subtle than just the inclusion of a priest character. I've
> been trying to find a Christian to ask for a perspective on it...
>
I like the series. But I was a trifle bit disapointed with the fact
that they made Wolfwood a priest. I can live with them using the
cross as a gun storage recepticle (though that is a trifle offensive).
I can live with them even using a person who's supposed to be
religious as a gun slinger. What bothers me is the fact that they
have a character who is a priest, but seems to have no aknowledgment
of his vows (chastity, poverty, etc). A priest who "takes lightly
what ought to be taken seriously"; that's the _definition_ of
blasphemy. Surely they could have made Wolfwood a preacher, thus
removing the difficulty of his vows and his flippancy about the
confessional? I've actually met preachers in real life who were as
flippant as Wolfwood, so it wouldn't be that big of a deal (I should
think). The worst part of it is, Wolfwood is a great character. I
like him. Why did they have to make him an insult to that which I
hold dear?
Other than that, I'm enjoying Trigun very much. I'm just kind of
ignoring the thing about Wolfwood being a priest. What other
Christian-esque imagery do you mean? I still haven't seen the last
two disks. . . also, because of the limited amount of anime that my
local rental places have, I've only been able to see each disk in the
series once a month, which kind of makes me forgetful of all that's
happened. Usually I have to watch stuff more than once to catch the
symbology, and since I don't own the disks (yet), I've only been able
to watch each episode one time. Maybe I should get back to you after
my box set comes in. ^_^
Fata Morgana
Tom Mathews
There are laws that do take things like this into consideration:
The people of a picket line must allow a person to enter a business, otherwise they
are illegaly interfering with that person's freedom of movement and probably the
right of the company to do business.
Burning a place down is arson
Burning a cross on a person's front yard is assault(Assault is the threat. Battery
is the physical attack)
Boycotts, complaints, and protests are fine as long as they don't interfere with
another person's rights.
This is an interference, and a factual one at that: The fundies got a city
goverment so concerened about Dungeons & Dragons, that if a person was known to be
playing it. That person would be put in the insane asylum for deviant behavior
A lot of gamers are anime fans and they are still holding grudges from that time to
make sure that that sort of nonsense doesn't happen again
Kevin Yong
"Robert Hutchinson" <ser...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.16ecc97ec...@news.vol.com...
> Kyle Thomas Pope says...
> > Robert Hutchinson wrote:
> > >So, they shouldn't be allowed to complain, then?
> >
> > They are free to complain all they want. That's their right.
>
> The question that started this branch of the thread:
>
> "There should be a law that says that private groups should not be able
> to bring pressure to bear to influence corparations in any way."
>
> Kevin responds that anime fans bring pressure to bear to influence
> corporations as well.
Thank you. That was exactly my point. The motives are different,
but the tactics of boycotting/complaining/pressuring a company
to change their policies are used by religious fundamentalists,
and anime fans, and the NAACP, and a wide range of other
groups with goals that range from the noble to the nutty. We can't
prohibit one group from boycotting without prohibiting them all.
Free speech means that people are free to complain about
things. Even about things that we like. And if a lot of people
complain about the same thing, companies may change their
policy. The end result isn't always what I'd prefer, but I think it is
a very counter-productive idea to try preventing censorship
by *outlawing* certain people's freedom to protest. (As
advocated in the original post I was responding to.)
--- Kevin Yong,
starving comic book writer at large
http://www.crosswinds.net/~newcrew/
Frank Raymond Michaels
wrote:
>Frank Raymond Michaels (fra...@i-2000.com) writes:
>> Funny you should mention that -- I just received the first two tapes
>> of _In the Beginning_ -- stories from the Bible done by Osamu Tezuka.
>> (This is another series I heard about here in RAAM -- arigato!)
>
>You're welcome.
That's right, that was your suggestion, Dave -- allow me to express a
personal "Arigato Goziemashita!"
>> I viewed them, and forwarded them to the person in charge of Sunday
>> school at my church. I wouldn't give it the highest marks as an anime
>> -- the animation is boilerplate, and all the English-language VAs are
>> all trying to impersonate Charleton Heston -- but they're great fun
>> and I think it would be a great way to introduce kids to the Bible.
>>
>> If our Sunday school committee likes them I'll order the other tapes
>> piecemeal (there 26 in all)
>
>25, according to the Right Stuf.
Yeah, I double-checked -- they had the whole box-set for sale, but I
wasn't going to cash-dump that much on the lot sight-unseen.
I'll get them a bit at a time, and donate them to the church if they
want them. Maybe I'll buy the box-set separately at a later date and
donate it to my public library.
>> and many children will get their first
>> exposure to the Bible through anime. Imagine that.
>
>And I can't think of a better way of saying "up yours" to uptight Fundies
>who think that anime is evil.
The thought had occurred to me...
>Watson
>Escaped Catholic.
(Me too...)
-------
FRM
Frank Raymond Michaels
Well, there's the small fact that angels are neither male nor female
-- by definition they have no sexual organs at all.
"At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in
marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. " -- Matthew 22:30
However, there are many types of angels -- there were some Old
Testament Angels called the Grigori who married the daughters of men
and produced the Nephilim (Genesis 6:1-4). Some folk have equated
these to the Greek demi-gods -- some were benevolent, great heroes and
taught humankind science and ethics, but some were monstrous.
One partial reason for the Biblical Flood may have been to rid the
Earth of these half-bred monsters and the wickedness they'd spread.
The ones that escaped the flood were cut down by the swords of the
angels of vengeance.
There's also a legend that exactly *one* escaped and walks among us,
hidden, to this day, waiting.... Tee-hee.
---------
FRM (For the record, it ain't me...)
Doctor Chibi-Moon
Fata Morgana wrote:
> Other than that, I'm enjoying Trigun very much. I'm just kind of
> ignoring the thing about Wolfwood being a priest. What other
> Christian-esque imagery do you mean?
Try thinking of Vash as a Christ-type figure, and see what happens. That's really as much as I can put
into words without seeing the show a second time.
--Brenda
Chris Mattern
"Sceadu" <aeona...@hotmail.com.removethis> wrote in message
> > Just the person I've been looking for... as a Christian, what do you
think of Trigun?
> ^__^ I'm
> > not a religious person myself, but I noticed a lot of interesting
Christian-esque
> imagery in
> > that series, and a lot of it more subtle than just the inclusion of a
priest character.
> I've
> > been trying to find a Christian to ask for a perspective on it...
>
my perspective
> was that it was just a comedy. Heh, maybe I should see more.
>
"How could I *ever* have seen this as a comedy...?"
Chris Mattern
Sceadu
> Earth of these half-bred monsters and the wickedness they'd spread.
> The ones that escaped the flood were cut down by the swords of the
> angels of vengeance.
>
> There's also a legend that exactly *one* escaped and walks among us,
> hidden, to this day, waiting.... Tee-hee.
But some Nephilim giants were still around later, hanging out in the Promised Land. See:
Numbers 13:31 But the men who had gone up with him said, "We can't attack those
people; they are stronger than we are." 32 And they spread among the Israelites a bad
report about the land they had explored. They said, "The land we explored devours those
living in it. All the people we saw there are of great size. 33 We saw the Nephilim there
(the descendants of Anak come from the Nephilim). We seemed like grasshoppers in our own
eyes, and we looked the same to them."
Sceadu
Robert Hutchinson
> fans and Christians are doing the same thing. As such, it's completely
> correct and on-topic for me to point out that they are not.
But anime fans and Christians both require water to survive. Context?
What's that?
Anime fans and Christians *are* doing the same thing, when the context is
"boycotting corporations should be illegal." Remove the context, of
course, and anime fans and Christians do, and don't do, any number of
"the same things."
--
Like irritating me
DANIEL MARX
>
> This is an interference, and a factual one at that: The fundies got a city
> goverment so concerened about Dungeons & Dragons, that if a person was known to be
> playing it. That person would be put in the insane asylum for deviant behavior
Skeleton Man
simple lines can end up going through from person to person. Especially when
terms like Anak and Nefelim are concerned. I wonder how many people ever
look to other sources, especially those from which the bible stories are
condensed, to get more info about a particular tale or more detail about
beings like Nefelim and anak etc.
Then of course there's linguistic concerns (like how three or four different
original hebrew terms all become angel in the greek and english bibles)
--
Skeleton Man
Animate without pay until someone offers pay. If nobody offers pay within
three years, the candidate may look upon this circumstance with the most
implicit confidence as the sign that sawing wood is what he was intended
for.
Frank Raymond Michaels
You're right, I looked it up. If they also survived the flood, I
wonder what happened to them? Wouldn't it be wild if fossil evidence
of these creatures is one day found? (Hey, they found Jericho...)
I recommend very highly the book: _Angels: An Endangered Species_ by
Malcolm Godwin, ISBN 0-671-70650-0. It details the different types of
angels and devils based on both scripture and the Book of Enoch, as
well as other sources.
------
FRM
Frank Raymond Michaels
BTW-- the explanation this book gives for the surviving Nephilim was
that they were rescued by "fallen angels" (demons) -- some were even
sheltered in the caverns of Hell to re-emerge after the floodwaters
abated. Evidently this is from the book of Enoch, which was excluded
from the Christian Bible.
--------
FRM
Sceadu
> wonder what happened to them? Wouldn't it be wild if fossil evidence
> of these creatures is one day found? (Hey, they found Jericho...)
It's possible more came later. This may be of interest:
2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell*,
putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment...
*Greek word used: Tartarus. Tartarus is supposed to be a special part of hell, lower than
"hades," and this is the only time it is used in the Bible. So fallen angels have their
own special hell, apparently.
Also... the Nephilim themselves were likely the fallen angels. Read this carefully:
Genesis 6:4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days--and also afterward--when the
sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of
old, men of renown.
This doesn't make it clear whether the term "Nephalim" applies only to the angels, or the
offspring. But consider this: the word "nephilim" comes from Hebrew word "naphal," which
means to fall or be cast down. The -im ending makes it plural. So it means "the fallen
ones."
Sceadu
Fata Morgana
Well, alright. . . but c'mon! How many fictional characters are there
that can be described as a "Christ-type figure"? I dunno that I find
that aspect of the story particularly drawing. There's also the good
son/bad son Cain/Able thing with Vash and Knives. . . but again, how
common is _that_ archetype? Common enough that I don't really feel
that it adds any depth to the series. Well, my box set is in the mail
(yay!), perhaps I'll change my tune after I've seen the rest of the
series.
Fata Morgana
Skeleton Man
"Sceadu" <aeona...@hotmail.com.removethis> wrote in message
> This doesn't make it clear whether the term "Nephalim" applies only to the
angels, or the
> offspring. But consider this: the word "nephilim" comes from Hebrew word
"naphal," which
> means to fall or be cast down. The -im ending makes it plural. So it
means "the fallen
> ones."
>
> Sceadu
>
>
Actually it's bit a bit closer to "those who came down" as opposed to "fell
down", from what I've been reading.
The idea being that it was intentional.
The problem is that too many of the terms (El, Elohim, Nefelim, Mala'
chim)have been handed down as they were known in their Greek definitions,
based on their mythology, rather than the literal Hebrew or Mesopotamian.
(if you want an even older Semitic language from which mnay of these terms
were borrowed unchanged.) It's a much more straightforward and simplistic
that way. Often times just different ways of refering to the same thing.
Sceadu
> King James uses the term "sons of God"
> This is the same term that's used in Genesis 6:4
> Depending on what you read the Nephilim are considere by some biblical
> scholors to be men from a certain region that I'd have to look up.
> But it seems pretty clear that Genesis 6:4 was the time of heroes.
Here's that verse in NIV.
Job 1:6 One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came
with them.
"Sons of God" is used several times in the Bible to mean "angels." As opposed to "Sons of
Man," humans. Christ referred to himself as both "Son of God" and "son of Man..."
although that doesn't really have anything to do with Nephilim, it shows that it's a
spiritual reference, rather than the followers of a certain religion.
Sceadu
> down", from what I've been reading.
>
> The idea being that it was intentional.
The rebellion was intentional, but the "fall" part was not. I think part of the rebellion
was the act of "consorting" with the humans, so they would have come down the first time
intentionally, but then be "cast down" because of it. Here is the exact definition of
Naphal according to http://www.studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=05307
1.to fall, lie, be cast down, fail
a. (Qal)
to fall
to fall (of violent death)
to fall prostrate, prostrate oneself before
to fall upon, attack, desert, fall away to , go away to, fall into the hand of
to fall short, fail, fall out, turn out, result
to settle, waste away, be offered, be inferior to
to lie, lie prostrate
b. (Hiphil)
to cause to fall, fell, throw down, knock out, lay prostrate
to overthrow
to make the lot fall, assign by lot, apportion by lot
to let drop, cause to fail (fig.)
to cause to fall
c. (Hithpael)
to throw or prostrate oneself, throw oneself upon
to lie prostrate, prostrate oneself
d. (Pilel)
to fall
Skeleton Man
"Sceadu" <aeona...@hotmail.com.removethis> wrote in message
> > Actually it's bit a bit closer to "those who came down" as opposed to
"fell
> > down", from what I've been reading.
> >
> > The idea being that it was intentional.
>
> The rebellion was intentional, but the "fall" part was not. I think part
of the rebellion
> was the act of "consorting" with the humans, so they would have come down
the first time
> intentionally, but then be "cast down" because of it. Here is the exact
definition of
> Naphal according to
http://www.studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=05307
>
This site is really cool!
I may have to spend some time here! I had been considering learning the
language for some time now, for, the same as I am often displeased with the
translations of many anime (dub or sub) I thought I would like to view the
text of the bible for myself as well, rather than leave it to anyone else's
translation.
It seems like every time someone reads it they have a different story.
Ideally I'd love to get a hold of some of the original Mesopotamian texts
from which most of the old testament stories derive, but that requires
learning both a dead language and unused script. Still, I think it would be
worth it.
Antaeus Feldspar
> table and PLEASE get your picture taken.) But the fact remains the only logic she presented
> for excluding the game was based on a misinterpretation, one she didn't even have herself
> since all she went on was she "heard" it was Satanic.
[snip]
What I usually point out to such people is that they are in fact
committing the sin of false witness, presenting themselves as knowing
that (Pokemon | Dungeons and Dragons | Magic the Gathering | Neon
Genesis Evangelion | other) is Satanic when they are simply repeating
what they have heard. They are assuring others of a truth they do not
themselves know, and committing false witness.
-jc
Ethan Hammond
>
> On Mon, 04 Mar 2002 07:55:46 GMT, Ethan Hammond
> <esha...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> >Fish Eye no Miko wrote:
> >>
> >> "Ethan Hammond" <esha...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> >> news:3C82D8...@worldnet.att.net.
> >>
> >> > > On Sun, 3 Mar 2002, Shin chan wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > > I'm Christian and I love anime.
> >> > >
> >> > > Ah! Unrequited love.
> >> > >
> >> > > Unless anybody knows any anime that loves christians...
> >> >
> >> > Bastard if you count sex with angels. *shrugs*
> >>
> >> Well, in that case, how about _Earthian_? Or does sex between angels not
> >> count?
> >> How about _Angel Sanctuary_?
> >
> >I think it has to be more than just angels, but actual biblical figures.
> >The angel Dark Schneider gets his jollies with is Michael, albiet a female
> >version, but she does have the holy sword of fire so its accurate except
> >for the gender. *nods*
>
> Well, there's the small fact that angels are neither male nor female
> -- by definition they have no sexual organs at all.
Yes but why would a Japanese manga be 100% acurate to religious texts?
> "At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in
> marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. " -- Matthew 22:30
>
> However, there are many types of angels -- there were some Old
> Testament Angels called the Grigori who married the daughters of men
> and produced the Nephilim (Genesis 6:1-4). Some folk have equated
> these to the Greek demi-gods -- some were benevolent, great heroes and
> taught humankind science and ethics, but some were monstrous.
Golaith is the descendant of the Nephlim.
> One partial reason for the Biblical Flood may have been to rid the
> Earth of these half-bred monsters and the wickedness they'd spread.
> The ones that escaped the flood were cut down by the swords of the
> angels of vengeance.
>
> There's also a legend that exactly *one* escaped and walks among us,
> hidden, to this day, waiting.... Tee-hee.
*shrugs* Many things walk among us.
Blade
> In article <MPG.16ecbc77b...@news.vol.com>,
> Robert Hutchinson <ser...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> If companies produced a "special overlayed edition" (perhaps by using
> >> branching so they don't need to make separate disks) while still selling
> >> non-overlayed versions, I wouldn't care if anyone bought it. If companies
> >> produced special no-card kids' meals, sold them to the fundamentalists, and
> >> let all the other kids still get cards, you can bet the Christian groups
> >> wouldn't be satisfied.
> >Very true.
> >Has no bearing on what was being argued, but very true.
>
> It has lots of bearing on it.
>
> by objecting to anime that they don't like".
>
> preferences on everyone, even people who disagree with them and want to see
> the things that they want to do away with. Fans aren't.
Some fans do. Rob Hutchinson whom you are replying to, for instance,
all but called for a boycott of Pioneer's products since they were
selling edited tapes of their shows shown on Cartoon Network.
In addition, anime fans who have loudly proclaimed their wish for
certain dubs, dub studiods, or all dubs in general not to exist are far
from unheard of.
So it depends on what precisely one is referring to.
Blade
*******
Also Known As: Chris McNeil, The Annoying Jerk, The Enemy of Democracy,
"That Guy That Can't Write A Lunch Menu Without Pantyhose Tarou Being In
It Somewhere"
All web pages, except my Evil Zone one, down
till further notice. Bleahh. >_<
"Oh, come on. Being printed "in English" is no reason to choose a
particular spelling. If it were, we'd all be saying "Captain Herlock.""
- Trish Ledoux on the Ah!/Oh My Goddess controversy, 14/09/93
Frank Raymond Michaels
wrote:
>Yes well I also have an NIV but why not check it out in the KJV?
>The Nephilim were obviously the children of the sons of God.
>Or angels if you prefer, the trouble with usingthe word Angel is that
>it has a positive coonotation and there is Scripture to indicate that
>angels do not marry and are not given in marriage, kind of implying
>that they don't "get it on" sons of God does not have the same
>connotation and could mean fallen angels or a mix of the two since
>having sex with human women was not forbidden.
There's an argument that the Grigori -- progenitors of the Nephilim --
weren't technically angels but some different, mm, "species".
And angels are *not* necessarily *nice*. Lucifer and the whole demonic
host are, technically angels. Angels kill when ordered to do so.
Angels will one day destroy the world to usher in the new creation.
Hmm... maybe if we build these big giant robots and let kids pilot
them, we can fend off the angels....
------
FRM (Nahh... it'd never work...)
Sceadu
Why do you think so? Here's where he first appears.
1 Samuel 17:4 A champion named Goliath, who was from Gath, came out of the Philistine
camp. He was over nine feet tall.
It never mentions that he was a Nephilim in any way. It's worth noting that fossil
skeletons of hominids (humans) have been found that were that tell, or even taller. In
other words: there is such a thing as a human giant, and it isn't supernatural at all.
It's just a genetic trait that is now lost.
Sceadu
Sceadu
> Ideally I'd love to get a hold of some of the original Mesopotamian texts
> from which most of the old testament stories derive, but that requires
> learning both a dead language and unused script. Still, I think it would be
> worth it.
Well, IMHO, it is the other way around... stories like Gilgamesh borrow in part from the
Bible. Actually, dozens of ancient cultures have stories just like the Flood... even the
Aborigines, who were seperated culturally from everyone, basically. I think this clearly
indicates that it was an actual event, whether you believe the Bible's take on it or not.
^^
Sceadu
Skeleton Man
"Sceadu" <aeona...@hotmail.com.removethis> wrote in message
I certainly believe the flood to be an actual event, it is known even in
ancient America, in fact, everywhere in the world. They all even contain a
hero who survived in a box, hollowed out log, boat, submarine, you name it.
Most even have him land at Ararat. But as for which came first, the
Mesopotamian texts from the library of Ashurbanipal in Ninevah predate even
the existance of Abraham (a Nippurian himself), let alone the biblical
writings which are believed to have come about around 1500-1300 B.C. after
the Exodus. There are clay and stone Tablets found in the ruins of Kish,
Nippur, Uruk and even Babylon and Assyria that predate the bibibal stories
by as much as two millennia, (some can be seen in the Brittish museum today)
including but not limited to Gilgamesh epic and the pre-flood king lists of
Akkad.
The documents found in excavated Canaanite, Hittite and Assyrian cites
contain much more complete books of the exact stories which became mere
paragraphs in the old testament or Hebrew bible. From these you can gain
much more detail about the life, history and nature of the Nefelim. The
bible itself is very recent by comparison. It only SEEMS the other way
around because most of the history contained therein could not be verified
outside of the bible until archeaologists uncovered the actual cities and
peoples mentioned there, some as recent as 1978. (Univ of Penn) It is
because of this that scholars and even the non-relisious realized the
historical accuracy of the bible and that mnay places, peoples etc. actually
existed.
The sad thing is, you only needed to ask the natives and nomadic tribes of
the area. They knew exactly where the old citiets were buried and knew all
the old legends.
Skeleton Man
"Sceadu" <aeona...@hotmail.com.removethis> wrote in message
I find it interesting that in ancient America, these remains were almost
always found in the ruins of great structures, tombs and temples (as
opposed to lying around on the ground) as though they were considered great
heroes, kings and people to be venerated.
Even in this part of the world there were stories of giants who came across
the sea. (from the old world)
In both ancient America and Mesopotamia they have depictions of them carved
in stone. Some show them as much as twice the size of the figure they are
depicted with.
Frank Raymond Michaels
<esha...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Frank Raymond Michaels wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, 04 Mar 2002 07:55:46 GMT, Ethan Hammond
>> <esha...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>
>> >Fish Eye no Miko wrote:
>> >>
>> >> "Ethan Hammond" <esha...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
>> >> news:3C82D8...@worldnet.att.net.
>> >>
>> >> > Nargun wrote:
>> >> > > On Sun, 3 Mar 2002, Shin chan wrote:
>> >> > >
>> >> > > > I'm Christian and I love anime.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Ah! Unrequited love.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Unless anybody knows any anime that loves christians...
>> >> >
>> >> > Bastard if you count sex with angels. *shrugs*
>> >>
>> >> Well, in that case, how about _Earthian_? Or does sex between angels not
>> >> count?
>> >> How about _Angel Sanctuary_?
>> >
>> >I think it has to be more than just angels, but actual biblical figures.
>> >The angel Dark Schneider gets his jollies with is Michael, albiet a female
>> >version, but she does have the holy sword of fire so its accurate except
>> >for the gender. *nods*
>>
>> Well, there's the small fact that angels are neither male nor female
>> -- by definition they have no sexual organs at all.
>
>Yes but why would a Japanese manga be 100% acurate to religious texts?
Because American cartoons are very careful to be 100% accurate in
their portrayal of Shinto and Buddhist dogma. Remember when Bugs Bunny
was being chased by Thousand-Armed Kannon? Or when Buddha tried to
give Enlightenment to Jabberjaw? Even the sutras were chanted with the
right inflection. I mean, fair's fair.
>> "At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in
>> marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. " -- Matthew 22:30
>>
>> However, there are many types of angels -- there were some Old
>> Testament Angels called the Grigori who married the daughters of men
>> and produced the Nephilim (Genesis 6:1-4). Some folk have equated
>> these to the Greek demi-gods -- some were benevolent, great heroes and
>> taught humankind science and ethics, but some were monstrous.
>
>Golaith is the descendant of the Nephlim.
Um, no he wasn't, he was from Gath, probably just this really big guy,
maybe even suffering from clinical giantism ("acromegali"). Imagine
Shaq walking through downtown Tokyo and you'll get an idea of the
scale.
Besides, Goliath was a pussy. This is another passage of the Bible
many people misinterpret -- David was no pipsqueak, he used to kill
*lions* with that sling of his. He wasn't going to sweat some big
loudmouthed dork.
>
>> One partial reason for the Biblical Flood may have been to rid the
>> Earth of these half-bred monsters and the wickedness they'd spread.
>> The ones that escaped the flood were cut down by the swords of the
>> angels of vengeance.
>>
>> There's also a legend that exactly *one* escaped and walks among us,
>> hidden, to this day, waiting.... Tee-hee.
>
>*shrugs* Many things walk among us.
<Squinting at Ethan> So desu, Ethan-san.... so desu...!
------
FRM
Arbane the Terrible
> Well, IMHO, it is the other way around... stories like Gilgamesh borrow in
> part from the
> Bible.
No, _that_'s backwards. Historians are pretty certain that Utnapistim came
before Noah.
> Actually, dozens of ancient cultures have stories just like the
> Flood... even the
> Aborigines, who were seperated culturally from everyone, basically.
"That's funny, they don't _look_ Jewish!"
> I think this clearly indicates that it was an actual event, whether you
> believe the Bible's take on it or not. ^^
Not really. LOTS of cultures fear floods.
And, as far as I know, there's no archao/geological evidence of a Big
Flood. (At least, none that was found by non-Creationists. Odd, that.)
There was -a_ big flood in the Mid-East a few millenia ago, but it surely
didn't cover the whole world.
My apologies for my overly persickety tone, but I've argued this point with
Biblical Literalists before, which is rather frustrating for someone like
me who thinks physics trumps religious dogma. Check out "The Whole Silly
Flood Story" for why that myth probably isn't literally true:
http://riceinfo.rice.edu/armadillo/Sciacademy/riggins/flood.htm
--
"Remember, the plural of 'moron' is 'focus group'."
-- James A. Wolf
Arbane the Terrible
> 1 Samuel 17:4 A champion named Goliath, who was from Gath, came out of the
> Philistine camp. He was over nine feet tall.
>
> It never mentions that he was a Nephilim in any way. It's worth noting
> that fossil
> skeletons of hominids (humans) have been found that were that tell, or
> even taller. In
> other words: there is such a thing as a human giant, and it isn't
> supernatural at all. It's just a genetic trait that is now lost.
It's not lost, it's just 'resting'. We Yetinsyny will someday once again
take our rightful place as the Farmers of Humanity--assuming our Belevolent
Space Brothers don't show up first and put all the Normals out of our
misery for us.
Ethan Hammond
Its somewhere in there where it talks about him being a descendant of them.
I could look it up right now, but I won't. It could depend on the version
of the bible as well. I use the King James version.
Ethan Hammond
> >Yes but why would a Japanese manga be 100% acurate to religious texts?
>
> Because American cartoons are very careful to be 100% accurate in
> their portrayal of Shinto and Buddhist dogma. Remember when Bugs Bunny
> was being chased by Thousand-Armed Kannon? Or when Buddha tried to
> give Enlightenment to Jabberjaw? Even the sutras were chanted with the
> right inflection. I mean, fair's fair.
*smacks Frank with wooden mallet* Ba-ka!!!!
> >> "At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in
> >> marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. " -- Matthew 22:30
> >>
> >> However, there are many types of angels -- there were some Old
> >> Testament Angels called the Grigori who married the daughters of men
> >> and produced the Nephilim (Genesis 6:1-4). Some folk have equated
> >> these to the Greek demi-gods -- some were benevolent, great heroes and
> >> taught humankind science and ethics, but some were monstrous.
> >
> >Golaith is the descendant of the Nephlim.
>
> Um, no he wasn't, he was from Gath, probably just this really big guy,
> maybe even suffering from clinical giantism ("acromegali"). Imagine
> Shaq walking through downtown Tokyo and you'll get an idea of the
> scale.
>
> Besides, Goliath was a pussy. This is another passage of the Bible
> many people misinterpret -- David was no pipsqueak, he used to kill
> *lions* with that sling of his. He wasn't going to sweat some big
> loudmouthed dork.
David cut Golaiths head off after he hit him with the slingshot.
> >> One partial reason for the Biblical Flood may have been to rid the
> >> Earth of these half-bred monsters and the wickedness they'd spread.
> >> The ones that escaped the flood were cut down by the swords of the
> >> angels of vengeance.
> >>
> >> There's also a legend that exactly *one* escaped and walks among us,
> >> hidden, to this day, waiting.... Tee-hee.
> >
> >*shrugs* Many things walk among us.
>
> <Squinting at Ethan> So desu, Ethan-san.... so desu...!
Damn peeking tom, trying to get a look at my beloved wifes goodies!!!!
SUPER ATTACK VICTORY THE RAINBOW RAGING!!!!
Ethan Hammond
> There's an argument that the Grigori -- progenitors of the Nephilim --
> weren't technically angels but some different, mm, "species".
Indeed.
> And angels are *not* necessarily *nice*. Lucifer and the whole demonic
> host are, technically angels. Angels kill when ordered to do so.
> Angels will one day destroy the world to usher in the new creation.
Lucifer's pansy ass only has 1/3 of the angels. With the elite Seraphims
forces of Michael, Gabriel, Uriel, and Raphael on our side he will be crushed
like the slimy scum that he is!!!!
> Hmm... maybe if we build these big giant robots and let kids pilot
> them, we can fend off the angels....
Maybe if Michael loans us the holy sword of fire!!!! GYA HA HA HA!!!!
Chris Byler
<the...@yucc.yorku.ca> wrote:
>
>
>Fata Morgana wrote:
>
>> Other than that, I'm enjoying Trigun very much. I'm just kind of
>> ignoring the thing about Wolfwood being a priest. What other
>> Christian-esque imagery do you mean?
>
>Try thinking of Vash as a Christ-type figure, and see what happens. That's really as much as I can put
>into words without seeing the show a second time.
Hmm... what does that make (character name ROT13'd for spoiler
protection) Xavirf? And isn't that much cooler looking than his real
name, btw?
--
Chris Byler cby...@vt.edu
"It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the
baker that we expect our supper, but from their regard to their own
interest." -- Adam Smith, _The Wealth of Nations_
Chris Byler
<aeona...@hotmail.com.removethis> wrote:
>> Just the person I've been looking for... as a Christian, what do you think of Trigun?
>^__^ I'm
>> not a religious person myself, but I noticed a lot of interesting Christian-esque
>imagery in
>> that series, and a lot of it more subtle than just the inclusion of a priest character.
>I've
>> been trying to find a Christian to ask for a perspective on it...
>
>Hard for me to comment, since I've only seen the first four episodes. But my perspective
>was that it was just a comedy.
Accurate... for the first four episodes. Not the whole series.
>Heh, maybe I should see more.
Definitely.
Chris Byler
wrote:
>In article <MPG.16ecbc77b...@news.vol.com>,
>Robert Hutchinson <ser...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> If companies produced a "special overlayed edition" (perhaps by using
>>> branching so they don't need to make separate disks) while still selling
>>> non-overlayed versions, I wouldn't care if anyone bought it. If companies
>>> produced special no-card kids' meals, sold them to the fundamentalists, and
>>> let all the other kids still get cards, you can bet the Christian groups
>>> wouldn't be satisfied.
Actually, they wouldn't even need to do that: just let the
fundamentalist parents take the "evil" toys out of the kids' meals and
throw them out.
>>Very true.
>>Has no bearing on what was being argued, but very true.
>
>It has lots of bearing on it.
>
>The argument was basically "anime fans do the same thing as the Christians
>by objecting to anime that they don't like".
>
>And my reply: it isn't the same thing. Christians are trying to impose their
>preferences on everyone, even people who disagree with them and want to see
>the things that they want to do away with. Fans aren't.
You're neglecting the fact that it frequently isn't cost effective to
release two editions (it takes twice the shelf space, which is a big
deal for small retailers). Unless they're doing Internet-only
distribution, which negates the cost of shelf space and allows you to
display an arbitrarily large inventory at negligible cost - but most
companies don't, because it's not popular enough.
Chris Byler
wrote:
>In article <543bd046.02030...@posting.google.com>,
>Steve Brandon <kiyon...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>When Mr.
>>Shukov examined the magazine for himself, he was horrified by the
>>graphic violence in one of the other manga (I think it was Parasyte),
>>so he did some research at a comic book store, and wrote the Gazette
>>article decrying the darkness, negativity, sexuality and violence
>>present in much of today's comics. He made a couple of heinous
>>generalities, but it's his opinion and he should be free to express
>>it. The Comic Book Legal Defense Fund called it "censorship"; I call
>>it "guy expressing an opinion".
Well, there is darkness, negativity and violence present in many of
today's comics. Some of it is handled well, and some is handled badly
(IMO). I haven't seen any significant amount of sexuality, maybe
because I'm not reading the right comics.
In any case, it's not censorship (how could it be, Mr. Shukov is
neither a government agency nor any other being with comparable
powers); it's apparently not even a call for censorship.
>That's like saying that burning a cross is only something for the fire
>department to worry about.
If it's your cross on your property, yes. Although I might be just a
*bit* suspicious.
BTW, why is it that ultra-patriots object to flag burning, but
ultra-religious people don't seem to object to cross burning per se
(of course some object to the KKK on other quite valid grounds)?
>There are some statements of opinion that are so closely associated with other
>things that aren't opinions that it's perfectly reasonable to assume that
>there's more than just an opinion involved, even if nobody said so outright.
This is a very dangerous statement. Especially if the association
itself is questionable (and historically, many such questionable
associations have been formed by the enemies of particular
ideologies). In any case, the answer to censorship is not more
censorship.
>The guy might not have explicitly said "... and anyone who markets them to
>kids should be arrested", but historically, that's what that kind of statement
>means.
Maybe so. But as long as he stops short of saying so, then there's no
reason to encourage history to repeat itself.
Hans Holm
Skeleton Man <skel...@planetbone.com> skrev i
diskussionsgruppsmeddelandet:u8a9gup...@corp.supernews.com...
> I certainly believe the flood to be an actual event,
growth
of the Black Sea (something about the Mediterranean breaking through at
the Bosporus), which destroyed most of the emerging civilization in the
area.
The concept of floods and surviving them by 'boat' is something that can be
found in any culture familiar with larger bodies of water and transports on
them.
> Most even have him land at Ararat.
Even those no-where near the Near East?
> The sad thing is, you only needed to ask the natives and nomadic tribes of
> the area. They knew exactly where the old citiets were buried and knew all
> the old legends.
Happens/Happened with depressing regularity, I think.
Skeleton Man
"Hans Holm" <hans...@bredband.net> wrote in message
news:snlh8.5780$Za4....@news1.bredband.com...
>
> Skeleton Man <skel...@planetbone.com> skrev i
> diskussionsgruppsmeddelandet:u8a9gup...@corp.supernews.com...
> > I certainly believe the flood to be an actual event,
> I seem to recall scientists finding evidence of the quite sudden rapid
> growth
> of the Black Sea (something about the Mediterranean breaking through at
> the Bosporus), which destroyed most of the emerging civilization in the
> area.
>
Outside of the Genesis version ( a rather latecomer on the scene) most other
legends have the flood just happen, not caused by theirs or any other god.
Some scholars surmise it was due to the end of the ice age, after drought
and warming, where an extremely large glacier may have slid into the ocean
creating a tidal wave or just waters rising from excessive melting. The
legends also place it about 11,000 B.C. (based on pre-flood and post-flood
king lists) which is far outside of the diehard's 6000 year old Earth story.
I've read it both ways. Some believe that it was a flooding of just the
ancient Near East, which would create the appearance from their vantage
point of the entire world being flooded.
> The concept of floods and surviving them by 'boat' is something that can
be
> found in any culture familiar with larger bodies of water and transports
on
> them.
>
> > Most even have him land at Ararat.
> Even those no-where near the Near East?
>
Yes, even the predecessors of the Inca, Tulan etc. claimed a landing spot
"on the other side of the world" . They say their ancestors came to America
by boat. (according to stories told to Spanish conquerers by recently
converted "Indians".)
> > The sad thing is, you only needed to ask the natives and nomadic tribes
of
> > the area. They knew exactly where the old citiets were buried and knew
all
> > the old legends.
> Happens/Happened with depressing regularity, I think.
Archeaology is a beautiful thing. At least now I know that if I am ever
looking for a lost city, I'll ask the people that have been living in the
area for thousands of years first.
Hans Holm
>
>
>
> "Hans Holm" <hans...@bredband.net> wrote in message
> news:snlh8.5780$Za4....@news1.bredband.com...
> >
> > Skeleton Man <skel...@planetbone.com> skrev i
> > diskussionsgruppsmeddelandet:u8a9gup...@corp.supernews.com...
> > > I certainly believe the flood to be an actual event,
>
> > I seem to recall scientists finding evidence of the quite sudden rapid
> > growth
> > of the Black Sea (something about the Mediterranean breaking through at
> > the Bosporus), which destroyed most of the emerging civilization in the
> > area.
> >
>
> Outside of the Genesis version ( a rather latecomer on the scene) most
other
> legends have the flood just happen, not caused by theirs or any other god.
"swarming like flies" around the sacrifice made by the survivors when they
landed.
> Some scholars surmise it was due to the end of the ice age, after drought
> and warming, where an extremely large glacier may have slid into the ocean
> creating a tidal wave or just waters rising from excessive melting. The
> legends also place it about 11,000 B.C. (based on pre-flood and post-flood
> king lists) which is far outside of the diehard's 6000 year old Earth
story.
>
> I've read it both ways. Some believe that it was a flooding of just the
> ancient Near East, which would create the appearance from their vantage
> point of the entire world being flooded.
>
> > The concept of floods and surviving them by 'boat' is something that can
> be
> > found in any culture familiar with larger bodies of water and transports
> on
> > them.
> >
> > > Most even have him land at Ararat.
> > Even those no-where near the Near East?
> >
>
> Yes, even the predecessors of the Inca, Tulan etc. claimed a landing spot
> "on the other side of the world" . They say their ancestors came to
America
> by boat. (according to stories told to Spanish conquerers by recently
> converted "Indians".)
Not exactly the same as explicitly saying he landed at Ararat.
And the question is, had they heard the Genesis version before they told
their version?
In the Norse flood (the blood from Ymir) the survivors were giants, which
may
be of interest elsewhere in this thread.
(Then again, humanity wasn't created until afterwards in Norse mythology.)
>
> > > The sad thing is, you only needed to ask the natives and nomadic
tribes
> of
> > > the area. They knew exactly where the old citiets were buried and knew
> all
> > > the old legends.
>
> > Happens/Happened with depressing regularity, I think.
>
> Archeaology is a beautiful thing. At least now I know that if I am ever
> looking for a lost city, I'll ask the people that have been living in the
> area for thousands of years first.
It's not just archeaology.
There's at least one animal (the indri), whose name actually means
something like "Look!" in the local tongue.
I don't know if Pratchett's comments on geographical naming is true, though.
Blade
<sigh> I don't want to debate about the Bible's historical accuracy or
lack thereof...
...but not every culture has a "flood' story. Far from it. While it's
pretty much accepted that there WAS a major Tigris-Euphrates flood that
probably led to the story in the Bible, that's IT. Anything else,
especially extremely far-fetched ideas about the entire world being
flooded, are pure speculation.
Chris Mattern
"Blade" <takatsu...@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:3C860918...@rogers.com...
> Sceadu wrote:
> >
> > > It seems like every time someone reads it they have a different story.
> > > Ideally I'd love to get a hold of some of the original Mesopotamian
texts
> > > from which most of the old testament stories derive, but that requires
> > > learning both a dead language and unused script. Still, I think it
would be
> > > worth it.
> >
> > Well, IMHO, it is the other way around... stories like Gilgamesh borrow
in part from the
> > Bible. Actually, dozens of ancient cultures have stories just like the
Flood... even the
> > Aborigines, who were seperated culturally from everyone, basically. I
think this clearly
> > indicates that it was an actual event, whether you believe the Bible's
take on it or not.
> > ^^
>
> <sigh> I don't want to debate about the Bible's historical accuracy or
> lack thereof...
>
> ...but not every culture has a "flood' story. Far from it. While it's
> pretty much accepted that there WAS a major Tigris-Euphrates flood that
> probably led to the story in the Bible, that's IT. Anything else,
> especially extremely far-fetched ideas about the entire world being
> flooded, are pure speculation.
>
may have their roots in the formation of the Black Sea. The Bosphorus
opened and Black Sea filled while the Black Sea basin was inhabited.
Chris Mattern
Robert Hutchinson
> Some fans do. Rob Hutchinson whom you are replying to, for instance,
> all but called for a boycott of Pioneer's products since they were
> selling edited tapes of their shows shown on Cartoon Network.
Wow. I'm glad you told me, or I'd never have known.
--
Isn't named Rob, either
Robert Hutchinson |
| "Butterflies are real asses."
| -- Conan O'Brien
|
Skeleton Man
"Hans Holm" <hans...@bredband.net> wrote in message
news:RKnh8.5169$1h4....@news2.bredband.com...
>
> Skeleton Man <skel...@planetbone.com> skrev i
> diskussionsgruppsmeddelandet:u8c025a...@corp.supernews.com...
> >
> >
> >
> > "Hans Holm" <hans...@bredband.net> wrote in message
> I seem to recall the Sumerian gods being behind theirs, and also said gods
> "swarming like flies" around the sacrifice made by the survivors when they
> landed.
The Sumerian gods were not behind it. Excepting the fact that they knew
about it and planned on not telling humanity about it. The Lower world gods
got the info that it was coming, but there was nothing they could do about
it so they decided to get out of dodge and let the humans die. Of course,
the one god who loved the humans (brother and arch rival of the one who
hated them) told Utnapishim/Ziusudra (Noah) by speaking to a wall (so not
actually telling a human and breaking the oath).
They were most certainly swarming around the sacrifice on Ararat. They were
very hungry. This meal convinced those who hated humans that they were
useful.
> > Yes, even the predecessors of the Inca, Tulan etc. claimed a landing
spot
> > "on the other side of the world" . They say their ancestors came to
> America
> > by boat. (according to stories told to Spanish conquerers by recently
> > converted "Indians".)
> Not exactly the same as explicitly saying he landed at Ararat.
> And the question is, had they heard the Genesis version before they told
> their version?
The Spanish were surprised to find the flood story and even the epic of
creation in temple inscriptions at Cuzco which the Inca attribute to their
ancestors. They were on the high alter above the holy of holies along with
detailed astonomical and astrologoical information. Except that it wasn't
the Genesis version of either story. It was the much older Mesopotamian
version.
>
> In the Norse flood (the blood from Ymir) the survivors were giants, which
> may
> be of interest elsewhere in this thread.
> (Then again, humanity wasn't created until afterwards in Norse mythology.)
Some of the ancient Mexican versions seem to imply that humaniuty was
created *again* after the flood. Basically inplying that new people were
created in the mountains of Peru to start the South American civilizations.
Blade
>
> Blade says...
>
> > Some fans do. Rob Hutchinson whom you are replying to, for instance,
> > all but called for a boycott of Pioneer's products since they were
> > selling edited tapes of their shows shown on Cartoon Network.
>
> Wow. I'm glad you told me, or I'd never have known.
I was referring to:
***
> > > Being smart and being legal/ethical/moral are two different things. :P
> > Not that often.
> Okay, tell me, Robert, how is it dumb to get more money for your investment
> at so little additional investment?
It risks completely negating that additional money by pissing off fans.
***
I admit I overstated the case, though...misremembered the way you
phrased the last line.
> --
> Isn't named Rob, either
...my apologies, MR. Hutchinson. You had not expressed any previous
desire to not be referred to by the common shortened form of your name.
Shiranui Gen-An
have the right to impose their beliefs on anyone else; forced conversion was
never something Jesus preached, it was all about personal choice...
"Fish Eye no Miko" <cath...@feablenm.net> wrote in message
news:ePzg8.26039$2v6.1...@news1.west.cox.net...
>
> I'm an atheist, but I don't bash Christians. In my posts, I'm careful to
> point out that it's the Fundies that annoy me. And it's not even that,
> it's the one who try to impose their beliefs on others, try to get things
> banned or at least taken off of tv, etc. Heck, there are people on the
> left who do this too, if something's not politically correct.
>
> Catherine Johnson.
> --
> dis "able" to reply
> "There are fifteen different kinds of animation in this movie--and they
all
> suck."
> -Christina Holland, stomptokyo.com, on Ralph Bakshi's animated
version
> of _Lord of the Rings_.
>
>
Kyle Thomas Pope
<sge...@supamugakirai.bellsouth.net> wrote:
>I have to wonder where the Fundies you mention even get off thinking they
>have the right to impose their beliefs on anyone else; forced conversion was
>never something Jesus preached, it was all about personal choice...
It comes from a biblical directive known as the Great Commission. In
it Christ was purported to have directed his followers to go out and
"make disciples of all the nations". This has been interpreted as
converting everybody in sight to Christianity. In their eyes you're
either a Christian or your damned. As far as they're concerned
alternate belief systems simply aren't valid.
-----
Kyle
"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered!" - No. 6
Robert Hutchinson
> Robert Hutchinson wrote:
> > Blade says...
> > > Some fans do. Rob Hutchinson whom you are replying to, for instance,
> > > all but called for a boycott of Pioneer's products since they were
> > > selling edited tapes of their shows shown on Cartoon Network.
> >
> > Wow. I'm glad you told me, or I'd never have known.
>
> I was referring to:
>
> ***
> > > > Being smart and being legal/ethical/moral are two different things. :P
> > > Not that often.
> > Okay, tell me, Robert, how is it dumb to get more money for your investment
> > at so little additional investment?
> It risks completely negating that additional money by pissing off fans.
> ***
>
> I admit I overstated the case, though...misremembered the way you
> phrased the last line.
Overstatement would be an understatement.
> > Isn't named Rob, either
>
> ...my apologies, MR. Hutchinson. You had not expressed any previous
> desire to not be referred to by the common shortened form of your name.
Well, I can see how you'd take it upon yourself to use it.
--
Antonio E. Gonzalez
>Date: 03/06/2002 3:17 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <u8c025a...@corp.supernews.com>
>
>
>
>
>"Hans Holm" <hans...@bredband.net> wrote in message
>news:snlh8.5780$Za4....@news1.bredband.com...
>>
>> Skeleton Man <skel...@planetbone.com> skrev i
>> diskussionsgruppsmeddelandet:u8a9gup...@corp.supernews.com...
>> > I certainly believe the flood to be an actual event,
>
>> I seem to recall scientists finding evidence of the quite sudden rapid
>> growth
>> of the Black Sea (something about the Mediterranean breaking through at
>> the Bosporus), which destroyed most of the emerging civilization in the
>> area.
>>
>
>Outside of the Genesis version ( a rather latecomer on the scene) most other
>legends have the flood just happen, not caused by theirs or any other god.
>Some scholars surmise it was due to the end of the ice age, after drought
>and warming, where an extremely large glacier may have slid into the ocean
>creating a tidal wave or just waters rising from excessive melting. The
>legends also place it about 11,000 B.C. (based on pre-flood and post-flood
>king lists) which is far outside of the diehard's 6000 year old Earth story.
>
>I've read it both ways. Some believe that it was a flooding of just the
>ancient Near East, which would create the appearance from their vantage
>point of the entire world being flooded.
>
Well, along with rising oceans, you can bet there were extreme weather
changes. Huge storms would cause huge floods around the world. Different
floods, similar stories.
Keeping with this thread, if you want a REALLY far out theories on the
Bible, and ancient times, try to find "Chariots of the Gods" by Erich Von
Dänikken. The radioactive Ark of the Covenant, built on instructions by aliens
is one of the tamer ones!
- Vaughner
"Oh sweet baby Jesus, I'm a female anime-type character and I'm being atacked
by tentacles!!! That means there's only one thing that could happen next!!"
- Bimbo Moneymaker, (www.)Exploitation Now(.com)
Tom Mathews
I think the cause was stated to be the volcano at the island of Thera blowing its top and the
shockwaves from it sent tidal waves across the world.
It was thoerized that its power would be 3x as much as the largets recorded volcanic
eruption. And that one had people in New York calling the fire stations to put out the sky.
And the boom circled the world at least twice
Funny, a person did their own translation from Egyptian to another language and didn't have
the problem that translating to Greek had by multiplying numbers b a factor of 10. Looked at
Thera. Looked at the other part of the civilization of Minos and said this is Atlantis. The
islands of Minos and Thera were Atlantis, not one single island.
<laugh>one bad translation created a major legend
Hans Holm
Tom Mathews <dang...@earthlink.net> skrev i
diskussionsgruppsmeddelandet:3C8A1688...@earthlink.net...
> Sceadu wrote:
>
> > > It seems like every time someone reads it they have a different story.
> > > Ideally I'd love to get a hold of some of the original Mesopotamian
texts
> > > from which most of the old testament stories derive, but that requires
> > > learning both a dead language and unused script. Still, I think it
would be
> > > worth it.
> >
> > Well, IMHO, it is the other way around... stories like Gilgamesh borrow
in part from the
> > Bible. Actually, dozens of ancient cultures have stories just like the
Flood... even the
> > Aborigines, who were seperated culturally from everyone, basically. I
think this clearly
> > indicates that it was an actual event, whether you believe the Bible's
take on it or not.
> > ^^
>
> I think the cause was stated to be the volcano at the island of Thera
blowing its top and the
> shockwaves from it sent tidal waves across the world.
Tom Mathews
> Tom Mathews <dang...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >
> > This is an interference, and a factual one at that: The fundies got a city
> > goverment so concerened about Dungeons & Dragons, that if a person was known to be
> > playing it. That person would be put in the insane asylum for deviant behavior
> Interesting. Do you have a source?
It was an earlier post by a person living in the area at the time. You could use Deja
to hunt it up or maybe Yahoo! to hunt up actual reports.
As to my own personal experience, a relative of mine wanted me to go to psyciatric care
and attend church because I was playing D&D.
I might not have proof on that, but my own personal experience leads me to beleive that
that post is probably true.
My mon said, "Butt out, you are not his parent.".
<shrug> There are websites up that deal with the Fundie/D&D war
http://roleplaygames.about.com/cs/thecontroversy/
Like this one for example.
Manbow Papa
news:3C8A1688...@earthlink.net...
> Sceadu wrote:
>
> > > It seems like every time someone reads it they have a different story.
> > > Ideally I'd love to get a hold of some of the original Mesopotamian
texts
> > > from which most of the old testament stories derive, but that requires
> > > learning both a dead language and unused script. Still, I think it
would be
> > > worth it.
> >
> > Well, IMHO, it is the other way around... stories like Gilgamesh borrow
in part from the
> > Bible. Actually, dozens of ancient cultures have stories just like the
Flood... even the
> > Aborigines, who were seperated culturally from everyone, basically. I
think this clearly
> > indicates that it was an actual event, whether you believe the Bible's
take on it or not.
> > ^^
>
> I think the cause was stated to be the volcano at the island of Thera
blowing its top and the
> shockwaves from it sent tidal waves across the world.
There is another possibility. During the Glacier age, a huge
glacier covered northern half of the north American continent.
It's estimated that the thickness of the glacier should reach to
7,000 feet. As the climate of the earth getting warmer, the
glacier gradually melted and formed a huge lake. At the end
of the Glacier Age, about 10,000 years ago, the bank of ice
which dammed the lake at the gulf of st. Lawrence was finally
broken down and huge amount of water run from the lake into
the sea at once. This caused the sea level of this planet lifted
significantly in a very short time. And all the lower land in the
world was drawn into the sea as well.
--
/ Ishikawa Kazuo /
(Remove NoS for E-mailing)
Shiranui Gen-An
record of the apostles and disciples in the 1st century, that's what they
did as well. True they were to take the message to everyone but not
everyone would respond and they didn't expect everyone to...
"Kyle Thomas Pope" <kuro...@notmail.spam.not.com> wrote in message
news:59F8A8AF1A5E164B.34DEA162...@lp.airnews.net...