Why American medicine qualifies as a religion
Kay Henson
"Todd Gastaldo" <gast...@gte.net> wrote in message
news:U1_t4.1510$oO6....@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net...
Snipped a whole bunch to save space....
> In this latter regard, according to Hershel Shanks, editor of the Jewish
> magazine Moment, ancient Jews OFTEN changed the Biblical rules.
It's not that they changed Biblical rules. They built rules upon rules
around the original rules or laws so that they would in no way break God's
spoken Law.
>
> The following digression may be of interest to some readers....
>
> There is apparently a Biblical rule (or a rabbinic interpretation of that
> rule) which forbids men and women from praying together.
It's a Rabbinic interpretation quoted in the Talmud.
>
> Moment Editor Shanks carried an article recently about how Orthodox Jews
> caused a "riot" at a special wall in Israel, shouting "Nazi! Nazi!" at
> fellow Jews praying there (male and female) not of the Orthodox
persuasion.
Snipped....
Here you have a common problem between Orthodox Jews, Reformed Jews,
Conservative, Liberal, Messianic, Hassidic, etc. There are as many
differents sects of Judaism as there are mainstream Christianity (Catholic,
Baptist, Lutheran, Pentecostal, Fundamentalists, Born Again, Mormon, etc.)
All of the sects whether Jewish or Christian think THEY are the "right" ones
and everyone who doesn't believe as they do are wrong and/or heretics.
> Finally - and perhaps most importantly - it should be noted that Dr.
> Schoen "forgot" to mention that rabbis are advocating the amputation of
> far more infant foreskin than God originally/allegedly commanded...
Certainly not Orthodox Jewish Rabbis. It depends which sect of Judaism.
> Ancient rabbis changed the Biblical rule on circumcision - from "tip"
> circumcision to total foreskin amputation - in part because Jews -
> including Jewish priests - were growing fond of wrestling in the nude
> with Greeks (as was the Greek custom of the day) - and penises without
> tips were objects of derision - so Jews were stretching them - so
> ancient rabbis eventually decided to change the Biblical rule and
> amputate the entire foreskin in infancy...
>
> "...[T]he consequence was [the] attempt to appear like the Greeks by
> epispasm ('making themselves foreskins')... [See Circumcision in Singer
> I (and 400 others, eds.), 1901]
I disagree with this statement. The Jews of that time were being persecuted.
If you were circumcised, you were Jewish and the persecuted. They were
making their foreskins appear to not be circumcised in order to evade the
persecution.
>
> Forty years later (134 BCE), the high priest of Jerusalem, John
> Hyrcanus, forcibly circumcised the Idumeans, "leading them to think they
> were Jews." [Gribetz J, Greenstein EL, Stein RS. The Timetables of
> Jewish History. New York: Simon and Schuster 1993. Judah Gribetz is
> president of the Jewish Community Relations Council of New York.]
>
> It was during this period that Jewish priests apparently decided that
> stretching the foreskin was wrong and threatened the extermination of
> those Jews who stretched their foreskins:
>
> "The Book of Jubilee (xv. 26-27), written in the time of John Hyrcanus,
> has the following: '...God's anger will be kindled against the children
> of the covenant if they make the members of their body appear like those
> of the Gentiles, and they will be expelled and exterminated from the
> earth.'" [Charles, The Book of Jubilees iv.-ix. iii. 190-192, under
> Circumcision in Singer I (and 400 others, eds.) The Jewish Encyclopedia.
> New York: Ktav 1901.]
Yes, that is in the book of Jubilee.
>
> But Jews of this period apparently construed the "no stretching" decree
> to mean that it was all right not to circumcise; for when the son of
> John Hyrcanus took power in 104 BCE (by imprisoning his mother and
> killing his brother), he forced circumcision on the residents of Galilee
> - "many of them Jews." [Gribetz 1993]
Depending on which sect of Judaism....
> "Thenceforward [total foreskin amputation - the laying bare of the
> glans] was the mark of Jewish loyalty." [See Circumcision in Singer I
> (and 400 others, eds.), 1901]
Not Jewish loyalty...obeying the God they loved.
>
> Wallerstein indirectly noted in 1983 that ancient rabbis changed the
> Biblical rule on circumcision:
>
> "Originally, the surgery involved only cutting the tip of the foreskin.
> This was changed in the Hellenic Period to prevent [Jews from]
> elongat[ing] the foreskin stump in order to appear uncircumcised."
> [Wallerstein E. Humanistic Judaism 1983;11(4):46]
>
> And in the June 1997 issue of Moment, Hershel Shanks, editor of Moment,
> noted that "the rabbis of the Talmud OFTEN changed the Biblical rules"
> (emphasis added):
Yes, they do.
>
> "A friend...[argued]...with regard to the Orthodox rabbis' pronouncement
> declaring Reform and Conservative not Judaism...[that]...[i]t's all
> traceable to the [U.S.] Reform decision nearly 15 years ago to adopt
> patrilineality - a child born of a Jewish father, if raised as a Jew, is
> Jewish....
That is incorrect. A child is not Jewish unless the mother is Jewish.
(According to Talmudic Law)
>
> "....[I]n Biblical times, Jewish descent was determined by the
> Jewishness of the father...The rabbis changed that 2,000 year-old
> tradition...Indeed the rabbis of the Talmud OFTEN changed the Biblical
> rules (emphases added)..."
> [Shanks H. Tolerance v. Halachah. Moment. (Jun)1997;22(3):6, 8-9]
It's not that they changed Biblical rules. They didn't want to break even
the slightest of God's commands, so they made laws on top of the Law so that
they couldn't even get close to breaking the original Law. It is kind of
like a fence...the original Law is inside the fence and there are many other
rules outside so that hopefully you won't get close enough to break the
commandments on the inside.
By the way....halacha(h) means the Walk.
snip....
> "[Circumcision] is not a sacrament which inducts the infant into
> Judaism: his birth does that" [Rabbi MN Kertner. What is a Jew? New
> York: Macmillan, 1973,1993] (Also, adult Jews who wish to remain
> uncircumcised are accepted under Israel's Law of Return, which indicates
> that even "religious" circumcision is a CHOICE which may legitimately be
> postponed until adulthood and beyond.)
And many Jews would call this Rav a heretic.
>
> And Rabbi Michael Lerner writes:
>
> "The infliction of unnecessary pain is precisely what Judaism is
> designed to fight against, so it makes little sense for us to be the
> perpetrators on our children." [Rabbi Michael Lerner. Jewish Renewal NY:
> G.P. Putnam's Sons 1994:387])
And they would also call this Rav a heretic.
snip....
Todd,
Maybe it would behoove you to study the different sects of Judaism and
understand them and their feelings about each of the different sects.
Have you seen a circumcision performed by an MD? Have you seen one performed
by a Jewish Moyle? Actually, a "proper" circumcision is done by the child's
father. The Moyle is granted by the father to do it in his stead.
I have seen both performed.....yes, the child screamed when the MD did it.
Babies DO feel pain, even inutero. But....the two I have seen done by a
Moyle...the babies didn't scream.
I didn't write to argue, just to inform. I don't believe circumcision will
ever be totally eradicated. I understand your quest and your passion for it,
but you must also understand people's passion for their beliefs and their
love of the God of Avraham, Yitz'chak, and Yaakov.
-- Kay
c...@teleport.com
<no-...@nowhere.com> wrote:
> "Todd Gastaldo" <gast...@gte.net> wrote in message
> news:U1_t4.1510$oO6....@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net...
>
> Snipped a whole bunch to save space....
>
> > In this latter regard, according to Hershel Shanks, editor of the Jewish
> > magazine Moment, ancient Jews OFTEN changed the Biblical rules.
>
> It's not that they changed Biblical rules. They built rules upon rules
> around the original rules or laws so that they would in no way break God's
> spoken Law.
Kay, you are arguing with a dolt. If we did not know TG (and I have kill
filed him but keep running into his excrement in others answers to him) he
might be worth debating (at least the first time).
----------------------------------
Fas Est Et Ab Hoste Doceri
----------------------------------
TheVindicator
You are obviously a very intelligent person with stamps... or not!
Nonetheless, your thought process impresseth me thusly.
Ergo, I have a suggestion which I trust you will consider.
Kali
> Uthman, MD). see below...
>
> ATTENTION: Barry Williams, Editor for Australian Skeptics, Inc:
>
> Peter Bowditch - one of your members - apes "Quackbuster" Stephen Barrett
> MD. See the very end of this post...
>
> ATTENTION: Donald E. Cook, MD, FAAP, President of the American Academy of
> Pediatrics via breas...@aap.org and kids...@aap.org. Scroll to
> @@@@@@@@@@@@@.
In a delusion of granduer you hallucinate that they are all waiting for your
opinions with baited breath.
>
> PREFATORY NOTE...
>
> Perhaps the most remarkable thing about chiropractic education in
diagnosis
> (see cites below) is that it is so successful inspite of the fact that DCs
> have been OBVIOUSLY ILLEGALLY denied access to the multi-billion dollar
per
> year hospital residency boondoggle (that is still being unfairly dominated
> by organized medicine and MDs)...
Does Gastaldo claim his profession to be overly or unfairly supressed?
I find that to be fairly common around here. "I'm being suppressed because
of the big, bad establishment." What?! Poor baby!
>
> See Gastaldo's consumer complaint to FCLB <---HOT! All chiro students
> should read!
> http://www.deja.com/=rd/getdoc.xp?AN=548556500
>
> Perhaps the most remarkable thing about MEDICAL education - in the U.S. at
> least - is that much of it - indeed MOST of it (numerically speaking) -
> involves forcing medical students to engage in obviously illegal behaviors
> perpetuated by obvious MD lies...
>
> So far NO one has substantively refuted this contention.
Perhaps the most remarkable thing about CHIROPRACTIC education worldwide
- is that much of it - indeed MOST of it (numerically speaking) -
involves forcing chiropractic students to engage in obviously deadly
behaviors
perpetuated by obvious Cairoquacker lies...
So far NO one has substantively refuted this contention.
> As ad hominems fly - as usenet MDs lie - America's most helpless patients
> are strapped boards and forced to endure American MD-inflicted mass human
> suffering - and this AFTER they have been subjected to having their skulls
> squashed/brains pinched/shoulders trapped...
And you think this is a great way to win people over to your cause with such
scaremongering language. Instead, you hinder your cause and allow even more
babies to suffer.
> And HOW ABOUT American MD-needle-vaccinators - who addicted America to
> bottle-feeding - STILL denying MASSIVE numbers of babies MASSIVE numbers
of
> FREE daily immunizations?!
Dumb way to put it. SOME pediatricans might not give enough information, but
that doesn't constitute denying a mother to breastfeed. Women have been
figuring this out way before the advent of modern medicine. If you want to
beat some doctors up for not emphasizing the importance of it, that is
another thing. We really don't need your help, since you hinder the cause.
Why don't you get behing the efforts of the LeLeche League. They have done
far more to promote the cause than you ever will with your scaremongering
tactics.
> See TWO lying Foxes/MDs and DCs in bed together?
> http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=586079191
>
> @@@@@@@@@@@@@
> Donald E. Cook, MD, FAAP
> @@@@@@@@@@@@@
> Donald E. Cook, MD, FAAP
> @@@@@@@@@@@@@
> Donald E. Cook, MD, FAAP
> @@@@@@@@@@@@@
> Donald E. Cook, MD, FAAP
> @@@@@@@@@@@@@
> Donald E. Cook, MD, FAAP
> @@@@@@@@@@@@@
> Donald E. Cook, MD, FAAP
> @@@@@@@@@@@@@
> Donald E. Cook, MD, FAAP
> @@@@@@@@@@@@@
> Donald E. Cook, MD, FAAP
> @@@@@@@@@@@@@
> Donald E. Cook, MD, FAAP
> @@@@@@@@@@@@@
> Donald E. Cook, MD, FAAP
> @@@@@@@@@@@@@
> Donald E. Cook, MD, FAAP
> @@@@@@@@@@@@@
> Donald E. Cook, MD, FAAP
> @@@@@@@@@@@@@
> Donald E. Cook, MD, FAAP
> @@@@@@@@@@@@@
> Donald E. Cook, MD, FAAP
> @@@@@@@@@@@@@
> Donald E. Cook, MD, FAAP
> @@@@@@@@@@@@@
> Donald E. Cook, MD, FAAP
What a tremendously effective technique! - but effective in a way you are
not intending.
> IMPORTANT NOTE: It has been 10 days since this just cited post - TWO
lying
> Foxes - was copied to:
>
> Donald E. Cook, MD, FAAP, President of the American Academy of Pediatrics
> via breas...@aap.org and kids...@aap.org.
>
> I am cc'ing this post also to AAP Pres. Dr. Cook - via the same
addresses...
>
> So far, AAP Pres. Dr. Cook has not responded to the bald lie I noted in
TWO
> lying Foxes - the Year 2000 lie of 50+ AAP-sponsored MDs...
You ought to go on the Art Bell Show. I also note that President Clinton has
been dodging you. He knows that you know that he knows.
> AAP's Year 2000 lie pertains to American medicine's grisly most frequent
> surgical behavior toward males...
Too bad No-Circ is light years ahead of you on this subject and has made far
more progress than you ever will. They actually sound sane and reasonable
since they don't use assinine scare tactics.
>
> AAP's Year 2000 lie is reproduced below.
>
> It also appears in,
>
> For other AAP lies, see AAP's grisly sexism
> http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=575816827
This is merely a link to more of YOUR writings!
>
>
> AAP Pres. Dr. Cook? You reading? WHY aren't you IMMEDIATELY moving to
hold
> a press conference to inform Americans (finally) that breast-feeding women
> are astonishing DAILY immunizers who scan their babies' environments for
> pathogens and manufacture SPECIFIC antibodies which they "inject" with
their
> breasts on a DAILY basis?!
In a delusion of granduer you hallucinate that he is waiting for your
opinions with baited breath.
>
> Also, AAP Pres. Dr. Cook...
>
> Please help me finally end American medicine's grisly $200 million dollar
> per year most frequent surgical behavior toward males.
The harm done by obsolete medical traditions do not justify Gastoldo's
"holistic" baloney. There is no national organization of "Pediatricians
Dedicated to Unnecessary Surgery," but there are national organizations
dedicated to Todd's anti-vaccination quackery.
>
> Paradoxically, AAP Pres. Dr. Cook, ending American medicine's grisly most
> frequent surgical behavior toward males PRESERVES it as a CHOICE American
> males can make for themselves in adulthood.
What nonsense! Are you proposing that an adult who wants a circumcision be
outlawed by politicians?
> My PRIORITY though, AAP Pres. Dr. Cook, is ending Western medicine's
bizarre
> practice of routinely squashing fetal skulls/pinching fetal
brains/trapping
> fetal shoulders/slashing vaginas/"episiotomizing"...
>
> See Make a big episiotomy/Suprapubic insanity...
> http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=573104004
This is just a link to more of your writings.
>
> And finally AAP Pres. Dr. Cook, I am interested in ending the related
Great
> Squat Robbery.
>
> The Great Squat Robbery (my phraseology) was British obstetrician Jason
> Gardosi, MD et al.'s ostensible reason why no one squatted in their 1989
> Lancet "randomised controlled trial of squatting"...
>
> See Scoliosis/PTs insulting children
> http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=578547248
>
> Onward to the flying ad hominems...
>
>
> Fletcher (Kali), Kingoff, Bowditch, Jonno, etc.
>
> THE FLYING AD HOMINEMS
Wrong. I am criticizing your style of scaremongering as ineffective. Note
that, though I am anti-circ, anti-episiotomy and pro-breastfeeding, you have
called me a Dark Side Clown. Though I could really care less what you think
of me or call me, this reveals how inconsistent you are.
Here's a Todd Classic;
> >>>> Why not crusade to outlaw [MDs] and execute them for all of their
> crimes? No? How about life imprisonment?<<<<
>
> Kali,
>
> It is good to acknowledge that MDs are committing crimes; but I do think
> that the best thing to do is to PARDON MDs - in advance.
What a wimp!! All of this scaremongering and now you want to PARDON
hem --- IN ADVANCE? I thought they were skull crushing monsters and
slashers!? How about strong armed robbers who have far less numbers of
victims? Can't they at least get a slap on the wrist?
> >>>>I like to regularly post pro alt-med articles on this NG and then
watch
> how all of this is forgotten when I dare criticize some pseudoscientific
> alt-med beliefs that are held sacrosanct.<<<<
>
> Todd D. Gastaldo, D.C. remarks:
>
> Kali likely assumes erroneously. I certainly haven't forgotten Kali's
many
> valuable contributions.
Thank you.
>
> I guess I should have made mention of them when Kali trivialized my own
> contributions - my protests of obvious MD lies and obvious MD-inflicted
mass
> human suffering.
>
> Kali says in effect that MDs should not be criticized for their obvious
lies
> because what they are doing to mothers and babies en masse is not as bad
as
> the Rwandan genocide!
You blew it there, Todd. I was referring only to life spans - not to the
genocidal wars! Rwanda has the lowest in the world. With all of these MD
atrocities, why are men living to an average age of 77 and women to 80?
>
> Kali continues:
>
> >>>>When criticized, proponents of pseudoscientific claims INITIATE
attacks
> against the critic, rather than the criticism.<<<<
>
> This is EXACTLY what Kali and Kingoff have been doing!
Here is a blatant lie. While i accurately called you what you are - among
them, a scaremonger - the weight of my agruments have been against your
extremist rhetoric.
>
> Kali continues:
>
> >>>>This fills up much of this newsgroup, since many times
pseudoscientific
> proponents have no ability to defend their claim by using reason.<<<<
>
> EXACTLY! Kali and Kingoff fill up much of this newsgroup with nonsense.
> They are in effect pseudoscientific proponents of MASSIVE amounts of
> anti-scientific MD behavior.
Another blatant lie. Unforgivable, since you already acknowledged that I am
anti-circ, etc.
> I don't "like" to call people names either - but - like Kali - I do so
> sometimes - usually after I have been called a name... Kali calls me a
> quack. : (
Absolutely true, since you are anti-vaccination. But then, you are living in
a coddled world and have never personally seen an iron lung or a baby dying
of whooping cough.
>
> Kali continues...
>
> >>>>Many others make a career out of only tearing down values, but never
> offering any positive values of their own - a lazy, parasitical way to
pump
> up one's own false sense of self-worth.<<<<
>
> Yes. This has been EXACTLY what is happening. I have been pointing out
> OBVIOUS MD-lies and OBVIOUSLY BOGUS MD-research both of which perpetuate
> MASSIVE MD-inflicted human suffering...
Nice inversion there. You can only criticize. You offer little in the way of
other positive topics. You don't update or vary your knowledge. You are
one-dimensional - offering the same old tired URLS. You are resting on your
"laurels" and thus appear intellectually lazy.
>
> Kali and Kingoff (like Fox before them) have been cheerleading for MD
liars
> instead of publicly calling upon them to stop their lies and stop
inflicting
> mass human suffering.
A terrific lie, if there ever was one. No other comments needed.
> >>>>List enough "evils," and even if proponents can reply to some of them,
> they' ll never be able to cover the entire list.<<<<
>
> What Kali calls "evils" I call American medicine's most frequent and
> fraudulent behaviors.
Yet you lag when offering a balanced discussion of your own profession's
frauds. This will provide edutainment for my friends over at Victims of
Chiropractic.
>
> I invite Kali and everyone else to PICK - look for perceived subluxations
in
> my adjustments/posts...
What ridiculous jargon and supreme distortion of the terms.
>
> Quote them back SELECTIVELY - including the URL if possible so everyone
can
> verify the subluxation...
You sound like a crackpot.
Now he's getting warmed up for his favorite is the Shock Word or Health
Scare Techniques
"Suprapubic insanity", "grisly sexism", and my favorite ---
"Christ/FATAL radiation sabotage/vaccination" are very effective in
telegraphing his own obsessions and hypocritical one-sidedness in not giving
equal time to his own profession's insanity.
> Attention Kali:
>
> It is a FACT that American medicine's most frequent surgical behaviors
> toward males and females *are* both senseless routine genital
mutilations -
> one of which (vagina slashing/"episiotomy") is association with routine
> fetal skull squashing/shoulder trapping which MDs ADMIT can kill...
>
> See...
>
> AAP's grisly sexism
> http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=575816827
>
> Make a big episiotomy/Suprapubic insanity...
> http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=573104004
>
> It is also a FACT that American medicine anti-scientifically addicted
> America to bottle-feeding and even with a recent pro-breast-feeding
> statement is STILL denying MASSIVE numbers of babies MASSIVE numbers of
> DAILY immunization that only breast-feeding mothers can deliver.
>
> 50% of American babies never taste a drop of breastmilk - and as a
> consequence they aren't receiving the DAILY immunizations that nature
> intended.
That's okay -- you'll pardon them and all the dumb parents IN ADVANCE!
> This is a high medical crime!
What?! You wimpishly pardoned them!!!!!
> And now a Harvard MD is now asking that DCs go along with the
> needle-vaccination gag...
A "gag"!? Now we see how you ruin your own cause with such crackpot
typifications!
Here's more bizarre language....
> DCs should promote DAILY immunizations - the ultimate in immunologic
> adjusting
> http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=583795586
Breatfeeding is an ADJUSTMENT!! Ha ha ha ha! You can't think in any terms
but chiro-jargon!!!
> Here's my favorite Kaliism (I'm paraphrasing): Gastaldo's quest to help
the
> helpless is not important because what American MDs are doing to the
> helpless is not as bad as the Rwandan genocide...
>
> Sheesh!
That's your favorite?! Ha ha ha ha! You completely misinterpreted it!!!!
>
> Kali continues...
>
> >>>>The Conspiracy Ploy can be leveled at anyone with absolutely no way to
> disprove it. How can you prove something isn't taking place secretly?<<<<
>
> WHAT?! I REGULARLY prove that things aren't taking place secretly - that
> MDs are PUBLISHING their obvious lies!!
AND they are vaccinating as a GAG!! Ha ha ha ha!
>
> American MDs are standing on obvious PUBLISHED lies to inflict mass human
> suffering!
>
> Witness MD-needle-vaccinator trade unionist Jonathan R. Fox standing on
> obvious published lies!
>
> Paraphrasing Kali's first sentence above, why DOESN'T he dare criticize
some
> AMERICAN MEDICAL pseudoscientific alt-med beliefs that are held
sacrosanct?!
Wow! This is suggesting that you are omniscient and know of all of my
activities!!
>
> Kali continues...
>
> >>>>Gastaldo thinks certain groups are working together to kill us!<<<<
>
> American MDs PUBLISH (primarily for themselves) the fact that there are NO
> medical indications for American medicine's most frequent surgical
behaviors
> *and* the fact that American's suffer and sometimes DIE from American
> medicine's most frequent surgical behaviors...
But you have publically stated that you have pardoned them in advance!!!
This is getting really entertaining and I am glad to have discussed all of
this with you. I've helped generate some great material here to share!!
>
> In the case of American medicine's most frequent surgical behavior toward
> males (penis slashing),
I love that bit of hyperbole. It makes it sound much worse than the
mutilation it already is! It makes it sound like they are dragging a scalpel
along the entire shaft! This is an example of why people think of you as a
crackpot. No-Circ would probably want to have nothing to do with you, as you
hinder their cause.
>American MDs ignore infant screams, ignore the law,
What law?
> and ignore THEIR OWN ETHICAL GUIDELINES which prohibit them from hiding
> behind PARENTS REQUEST IT cowardice...
>
> MDs LIE to keep parents requesting the grisly infant mutilation!
What? If the parents request it, what are they hiding?
>
> *And* they LIE to keep their grisly ADULT genital mutilation going!
>
> This is obviously illegal abuse of Americans en masse!
But you just said the parents requested it!
More laziness and failure to add to his arsenal -- the broken record
URLS -----
>
> See again...
>
> AAP's grisly sexism
> http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=575816827
>
> Make a big episiotomy/Suprapubic insanity...
> http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=573104004
> See...
>
> Christ/FATAL radiation sabotage/vaccination
> http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=514265675
>
> Gastaldo's consumer complaint to FCLB
> http://www.deja.com/=rd/getdoc.xp?AN=548556500
>
> Fox funnies/X-raySubluxFraud/Wilk v. AMA
> http://www.deja.com/=rd/getdoc.xp?AN=549506377
>
> It is failure to bash on both sides of the fence that bothers me -
Be bothered by your own chiropractic victimization omissions. You are
totally one-sided.
> particularly when MDs are (and they ARE) inflicting mass human suffering.
>
>
> Kali continues...
>
> >>>>But modern-day government scandals make them seem realistic to more
> people.<<<<
>
> In standing on x-ray/subluxation Medicare health fraud in U.S. District
> Court (see Christ URL above), the American Chiropractic Association has
> helpfully documented evidence that the U.S. Department of Health and Human
> Services is still dominated by MDs selectively working in the interests of
> organized medicine - against the interests of chiropractic and other
> professions. This constitutes ongoing MD abuse of the public trust.
>
> Kali continues...
>
> >>>>[Gastaldo's] favorite is the Shock Word or Health Scare
> Technique...Obvious words like "cancer" and "heart disease," add zip to
any
> scaremonger campaign, but specialized terms like "birth defects" and
> "leukemia" are also effective. "Suprapubic insanity", "grisly sexism", and
> my favorite --- "Christ/FATAL radiation sabotage/vaccination" are also
> effective.<<<<
>
> I stand behind my "shock words" - and I thank Kali for publicly calling
them
> "effective." THANKS!
You're welcome. They are very effective indeed in turning everyone off to
your cause.
>
> Kali continues...
>
> >>>>Yet we never hear him rail about...Strokes caused by neck
> manipulation<<<<
>
> This is CRAP! WHENEVER someone brings up strokes caused by neck
> manipulation I ALWAYS express interest in personally investigating. I
went
> to great lengths to investigate the stroke claims of Jay Trennoche, DC and
I
> think I specifically asked Kali himself for the names of DCs ostensibly
> stroking patients "routinely." Or was that Kingoff - or was it both of
> them. ANYONE: If you know of a DC who causes strokes by neck
> manipulation - I'm interested in all such cases.
Good for you, Todd. I will give you credit here, but it is the first time
I've heard you talk about it until I brought it up - hence I call your
inference that it constitutes railing TOTAL crapola.
>
> I can rail with the best of them about strokes caused by neck
manipulation -
> but I also can point out the FACT that DCs do NOT adjust in a vacuum.
They
> adjust PATIENTS WITH NECK PROBLEMS - and DC treatment for those problems
> is - last time I checked the literature - FAR less dangerous than standard
> MD treatment for those problems.
Then doctors do not perform harmful episiotomies in a vacuum either. And I
have never heard of anyone dying from this misguided, "grandfathered"
"tradition".
>
> Don't forget: I rail about *MDs* manipulating the spine GROSSLY and hope
to
> PREVENT more upper cervical subluxations than DCs will ever be able to
> adjust by hand.
>
> Again, see Make a big episiotomy/Suprapubic insanity...
> http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=573104004
>
> Kali rattles off a number of possible complications...
>
> >>>>Paralysis from spinal collapse related to an undiagnosed tumor,
> Overstretching of spinal joints
> Spinal fractures from overly vigorous manipulation Other neurological
> injuries...<<<<
>
> Let us ALL "rail" - and let us make sure to "rail" on both sides of the
> fence.
We'll see if you broaden your appraoch then - or whether you stick to your
tired old ways which are not effective in making your case. You need a real
makeover, my man.
> Kali continues...
>
> >>>>Gastaldo, who wants us to trust him, suggests that most doctors are
> butchers and poisoners.<<<<
>
> WHAT?! Of COURSE I want people to trust me! Who *doesn't* want people to
> trust them?
Radicals, extremists, and anarchists - those who only go for shock value.
>
> To my knowledge, I have NEVER called MDs "poisoners"; though, to be sure,
> most MDs ARE poisoners!
Ha ha ha! If the shoe fits......
It is a FACT that many/most pharmaceuticals are
> poisons - toxins! Never have I said, though, that most doctors (including
> DCs who recommend poison/toxin herbs) INTEND for their patients only the
> poisonous effects of their poisons/toxins! To the contrary, I have
> explicitly stated that some poisons/toxins are quite necessary. Kali is
WAY
> off base with this allegation - ESPECIALLY given the FACT that American
> medical concealment of powerful immunization information is, in effect,
> causing senseless, molecularly unopposed entry of poison/pathogens into
50%
> of American children. See the breast-feeding discussion above.
>
> Regarding Kali's allegation that I am saying that MDs are "butchers." I
> have NEVER called MDs "butchers"; though most American MDs ARE
"butchers" -
WHOA!!!! I'm hitting home runs!
> or rather, most HAVE "butchered" - i.e., by the time they graduate medical
> school, most MDs have "performed" American medicine's grisly most frequent
> surgical behaviors - both senseless routine genital mutilations. I think
it
> was Nancy Wainer Cohen (Silent Knife) who coined the term VBAC - and who
> wrote about one woman who had her vagina slashed when the medical student
> walked back in AFTER the birth - reportedly stating afterwards that he
> needed the "credit," or words to that effect!!! Women periodically e-mail
> me - one said she had had her anus slashed at childbirth - by an MD who
was
> closing her birth canal at the time - obviously fraudulently claiming to
be
> opening the birth canal with the episioproctotomy!
Here's another Todd gem.....
One or more of these
> women are going to sue (chiropractically adjust)
Ha ha ha ha ha! Does THIS say it all or what?!
and American medicine is
> going to finally straighten up and fly right... I just know it...
>
> These are OBSTETRIC EMERGENCIES, Kali...
>
> Would you want your sisters vagina slashed routinely - fraudulently?
You are the pipsqueak who PARDONED THEM IN ADVANCE FOR ALL THIS! I wouldn't
blame any victim's brother if he throttled you id you were a juror at her
trial!
>
> Happens every day - FAR more women than necessary have pain on sitting -
for
> months following their birth.
>
> FAR more women than necessary are wearing diapers for the rest of their
> lives because of routine vagina slashing/"episiotomy" and poor repair.
You are the pipsqueak who PARDONED THEM IN ADVANCE FOR ALL THIS!
>
> Kali continues...
>
> >>>>[Gastaldo] exaggerates the shortcomings of our healthcare delivery
> system, but completely disregard his own- and those of other quacks.<<<<
>
> Kali calls ME a quack!? What about the *MDs* who are LYING as they slash
> penises, slash vaginas, and squash fetal skulls and trap fetal shoulders.
>
> What about KALI being a quack for criticizing me for protesting this
> MD-infliction of mass human suffering?
You are the pipsqueak who PARDONED THEM IN ADVANCE FOR ALL THIS!
>
> I AIN'T talking about just a few isolated bizarre medical behaviors. I am
> talking about American medicine's MOST FREQUENT medical and surgical - and
> MISINFORMATIONAL behaviors!!!
You are the pipsqueak who PARDONED THEM IN ADVANCE FOR ALL THIS!
>
> REMEMBER, Kali,
>
> Via ongoing failure to provide explicit info about moms being MAGNIFICENT
> immunizers...
>
> American MDs are STILL denying MASSIVE numbers of American babies MASSIVE
> numbers of DAILY immunizations!
>
> This is HIGH medical crime - denial of massive amounts of the MOST
necessary
> medical care - likely because MDs can't provide it for a profit. (Why
ELSE!?
> Kali, you reading?! Jonathan R. Fox, MD threw LIES at me in his replies!
> Where was Kali? Nowhere to be seen!)
You are the pipsqueak who PARDONED THEM IN ADVANCE FOR ALL THIS!
>
> Kali continues...
>
> >>>> He excuses parents from bad pediatric "traditions" that they let
> mainstream medicine foist,...<<<<
>
> YES I excuse parents - even if they ignore me and deny their babies DAILY
> immunizations, etc.
>
> Parents have been SCREWED by mainstream medicine.
>
> Parents "let" mainstream medicine screw them?!
>
> Parents did not "let" mainstream medicine screw them!
>
> Kali is off his rocker her. Get up off the floor Kali. You look funny
down
> there!
You are the pipsqueak who PARDONED THEM IN ADVANCE FOR ALL THIS!
>
> >>>>[Mainstream medicine is]...now gradually changing, but [Gastaldo]
can't
> forgive the sometimes slow wheels of medicine and...<<<<<
>
> WHAT!? We have MDs right here on misc.health.alternative and sci.med who
> are telling LIES instead of ACTING to end OBVIOUS obstetric emergencies!!!
>
> And what is this "Gastaldo can't forgive" noise?!
>
> Gastaldo has PUBLICLY stated that the BEST way to end this massive, grisly
> medical folly is to FORGIVE MDs EN MASSE!
Tremendous!!!!!
>
> Surely everyone remembers that "Quackbuster" Fox called Gastaldo a
"fucking
> idiot" for proposing pardons in advance for MDs!!!
>
> Kali continues...
>
> >>>>[Gastaldo] can't forgive...[mainstream medicine for]...it's long,
> entrenched "customs" that will eventually be phased out, such as routine
> non-religious circumcision (which I am also against).<<<<
>
> HO! This is a good one! Kali is "also against" penis slashing!
>
> If this is true...
>
> WHY is Kali ignoring the LIES told by Jonathan R. Fox, MD right here on
the
> usenet?
>
> WHY is Kali letting AAP get away with bald lies as infants scream and
writhe
> and bleed and sometimes die?
>
> Kali's opposition isn't.
>
> Kali is an apologist for MD-inflicted mass human suffering.
>
> He is like Dean Edell, MD - calling it "child abuse" - but failing to do
his
> job...
>
> See...
>
> PTs/Dr. Laura/Edell to ask Atty Gen'l Lockyer to stop the child abuse?
> http://www.deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=496107936
>
> "Columbia U. Senate/RUPP: Emergency! Will you help the tiniest Americans
and
> their mothers?"
> http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=530202433
Why not give them the electric chair for all of that? How about at least a
little jail time?
>
>
>
> Kali continues...
>
> >>>>Even though parents are the ones who need to be informed medical
> consumers (good luck)...<<<<
>
> LUCK!!!??? Kali wishes parents LUCK!?
>
> Kali is pathetic - as mothers and infants suffer because of obvious MD
> lies...
You are the pipsqueak who PARDONED THEM IN ADVANCE FOR ALL THIS!
>
> >>>> and [Even though parents are the ones]...who ultimately take ,...<<<<
>
> Kali, I think you might have left out key words...
>
> >>>>[Gastaldo] holds a double standard; "Parents are entirely
> blameless."<<<<
>
> Parents ARE entirely blameless - when cultural authorities illegitimately
> establish themselves as cultural authorities using financial
> elites/politicians!!
>
> FACT: American MDs anti-scientifically and anti-competitively STOMPED
whole
> professions - and they continue to STOMP - now with the help of the likes
of
> Kali...
>
> Kali exhorts Gastaldo...
>
> >>>>Come on, Todd --- show us some real cajones!<<<<
>
> Kali wants to see my testicles! I'm blushing. : )
>
> He asks:
>
>
> Kali continues...
>
> >>>>Things like this are his main toe hold that he is milking for all it
is
> worth.<<<<
>
> My main "toe holds" are the obvious medical lies which underlie American
> MD-inflicted mass human suffering.
Why only focus on that? It that the whole picture or are you biased? What
about the vast numbers of people - possibly your parents or grandparents who
wouldn't be here if it weren't for doctors? Or are you going to say that
doctors never save lives?
>
> >>>>Just because we need to get rid of some of the things that
well-meaning
> doctors were taught -- excuse me! ---<<<<
>
> Did Kali just break wind?
It happens to every healthy human being an average of 14 times a day. But in
this case it was you hallucinating - or it was perhaps the sound of your
marbles falling out of your head.
> Why did Kali wait till the end of his post to acknowledge MY POINT - that
> "we need to get rid of some of the things that well-meaning doctors were
> taught"?!
>
> Numerically speaking, I am talking about getting rid of MOST of the things
> American MDs DO....
>
> I'll bet if he were tied down (again?) having his penis mutilated by an
MD,
> he would QUICKLY join me in wanting to stop at least ONE MD...
I HAVE stopped parents from circumcizing - even recently. But I don't use
scare tactics. I just present the huge progress medical societies have made
on the issue recently.
> Kali asks one last question...
>
> >>>>...does this mean that witch doctors, extremists and "ban all chairs"
> whackheads are automatically the people to turn to for valid medical
> knowledge?<<<<
>
> I have NEVER said "ban all chairs." (!)
I never singled you out by name - only by inference ------ there were witch
doctors and extremists mentioned too.
What progress have you made on the chair deal? I contend that your
scaremonger rhetoric turns everyone off from your cause. You shoot yourself
in the foot by sounding like a kook. I can help you write a more reasonable
sounding proposal on this one.
I have explicitly stated that
> schools and workplaces should be made chair OPTIONAL to help Americans
> preserve into adulthood the fundamental human rest posture that just
happes
> to open the birth canal about 30% and make it easier to poop and prevent
> hemorrhoids, etc.
> Kali concludes...
>
> >>>>I'll bet if [Gastaldo] were in practice, he would render bogus
treatment
> most of the time. <<<<
>
> Earth to Kali, Gastaldo **IS** in practice - practicing that HUGE (largely
> neglected) part of chiropractic that ANYONE may practice - licensed,
degreed
> or not...
>
> Gastaldo (without touching a single spine and with much valuable
assistance)
> MAY eventually (perhaps IMMEDIATELY for some things):
What progress have you made? For instance, how many circumcisions have you
stopped?
> 5) as a consequence of #1 and #2 PREVENT more vertebral subluxations than
> DCs will ever be able to adjust by hand.
The elusive subluxation which chiropractors can't decide on the definition
of, much less demonstrate correcting by their adjustments.
> I thank Kali for helping me further organize my thoughts...
>
> I hope he joins me in pointing out the obvious MD lies which underlie
> American medicine's most frequent behaviors.
>
> I am glad he acknowledges that some of the problems I discuss must end.
>
> I am sorry he doesn't see any urgency.
You are actually hindering your cause with your scaremongering style.
Todd Gastaldo
Uthman, MD). see below...
ATTENTION: Barry Williams, Editor for Australian Skeptics, Inc:
Peter Bowditch - one of your members - apes "Quackbuster" Stephen Barrett
MD. See the very end of this post...
ATTENTION: Donald E. Cook, MD, FAAP, President of the American Academy of
Pediatrics via breas...@aap.org and kids...@aap.org. Scroll to
@@@@@@@@@@@@@.
PREFATORY NOTE...
Perhaps the most remarkable thing about chiropractic education in diagnosis
(see cites below) is that it is so successful inspite of the fact that DCs
have been OBVIOUSLY ILLEGALLY denied access to the multi-billion dollar per
year hospital residency boondoggle (that is still being unfairly dominated
by organized medicine and MDs)...
See Gastaldo's consumer complaint to FCLB <---HOT! All chiro students
should read!
http://www.deja.com/=rd/getdoc.xp?AN=548556500
Perhaps the most remarkable thing about MEDICAL education - in the U.S. at
least - is that much of it - indeed MOST of it (numerically speaking) -
involves forcing medical students to engage in obviously illegal behaviors
perpetuated by obvious MD lies...
So far NO one has substantively refuted this contention.
As ad hominems fly - as usenet MDs lie - America's most helpless patients
are strapped boards and forced to endure American MD-inflicted mass human
suffering - and this AFTER they have been subjected to having their skulls
squashed/brains pinched/shoulders trapped...
And HOW ABOUT American MD-needle-vaccinators - who addicted America to
bottle-feeding - STILL denying MASSIVE numbers of babies MASSIVE numbers of
FREE daily immunizations?!
See TWO lying Foxes/MDs and DCs in bed together?
http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=586079191
IMPORTANT NOTE: It has been 10 days since this just cited post - TWO lying
Foxes - was copied to:
Donald E. Cook, MD, FAAP, President of the American Academy of Pediatrics
via breas...@aap.org and kids...@aap.org.
I am cc'ing this post also to AAP Pres. Dr. Cook - via the same addresses...
So far, AAP Pres. Dr. Cook has not responded to the bald lie I noted in TWO
lying Foxes - the Year 2000 lie of 50+ AAP-sponsored MDs...
AAP's Year 2000 lie pertains to American medicine's grisly most frequent
surgical behavior toward males...
AAP's Year 2000 lie is reproduced below.
It also appears in,
For other AAP lies, see AAP's grisly sexism
http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=575816827
AAP Pres. Dr. Cook? You reading? WHY aren't you IMMEDIATELY moving to hold
a press conference to inform Americans (finally) that breast-feeding women
are astonishing DAILY immunizers who scan their babies' environments for
pathogens and manufacture SPECIFIC antibodies which they "inject" with their
breasts on a DAILY basis?!
Also, AAP Pres. Dr. Cook...
Please help me finally end American medicine's grisly $200 million dollar
per year most frequent surgical behavior toward males.
Paradoxically, AAP Pres. Dr. Cook, ending American medicine's grisly most
frequent surgical behavior toward males PRESERVES it as a CHOICE American
males can make for themselves in adulthood.
My PRIORITY though, AAP Pres. Dr. Cook, is ending Western medicine's bizarre
practice of routinely squashing fetal skulls/pinching fetal brains/trapping
fetal shoulders/slashing vaginas/"episiotomizing"...
See Make a big episiotomy/Suprapubic insanity...
http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=573104004
And finally AAP Pres. Dr. Cook, I am interested in ending the related Great
Squat Robbery.
The Great Squat Robbery (my phraseology) was British obstetrician Jason
Gardosi, MD et al.'s ostensible reason why no one squatted in their 1989
Lancet "randomised controlled trial of squatting"...
See Scoliosis/PTs insulting children
http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=578547248
Onward to the flying ad hominems...
Fletcher (Kali), Kingoff, Bowditch, Jonno, etc.
THE FLYING AD HOMINEMS
Jonno started a thread entitled "Perceptions of Truth"...
He wrote:
>The point I am trying to arrive at here is that each person must surely
have his or her own freedom to >interpret, to reason and respond, in a way
which is unique to that person. Or am I in error here?
>http://www.remarq.com/read/14325/qAY69x6XaUzkC-9-x#LR
Todd D. Gastaldo, DC remarks:
Jonno is right. People do indeed have the freedom to interpret, reason and
respond in a way which is unique to each...
But when people CRITICIZE another's idea - if they are to be intellectually
honest - they must criticize SUBSTANTIVELY.
My experience has been that Jonno does NOT offer substantive criticism -
neither when he responds to my posts - nor when he responds to others posts
in response to my ideas...
According to a Deja archive search (reproduced below), there have been ten
(10) posts from the author named "Jonno" - the first of which was a response
to my post, Foxbusting - more MD 'loon' ad hominem - and another Fox - this
one an MD...
http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=584699214
In response to "Foxbusting," Jonno wrote:
>Suggest neurosurgery [for Gastaldo]: - cerebral cortex - anterior portion
of frontal lobe -also >amygdala...agression ctr...just an opinion...
>http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=584999996
This was a humorous response but it was not substantive criticism of my
ideas.
When senior medical intern (acupuncture) Andrew Kingoff wrote:
> Todd,
>
> Do you want your followers to be amongst those fool enough to follow
someone who talks such crap?
>
Jonno responded:
>[Gastaldo] has followers?...A follower?...Anyone?
>http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=588314138
Jonno appears to suggest - erroneously in my view - that if those who
support my ideas don't publicly express themselves - it means that my ideas
are wrong.
When Yarrow wrote:
> Andrew,... You're wasting your time trying to reason with
> Gastaldo.
Jonno responded:
>I believe you are right. Any attempt at discussion with the spectre that
Gasseous presents appears to be >wasted or worse.
>http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=587861360
Conversion of Gastaldo to Gasseous was humorous ad hominem - not substantive
criticism.
Jonno responded to Harvard MD David Rind's purely ad hominem argument that I
am "loony."
Jonno wrote:
>[Gastaldo] may be a loony man, but he's a dangerous one.
>http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=587504707
While I appreciated Jonno leaving open the possibility that I am NOT loony,
I was disappointed that he did not support his allegation that I am
"dangerous."
I wonder...
1. Since Jonno's appearance seems to have been stimulated by my "Foxbusting"
post...
2. Since Fox, too, has said that he considers me dangerous ("truly evil")...
3. Since Fox still hasn't responded to my "Foxbusting" post...
4. Since Fox said "Hillbilly Bob" was one of his "multiples"...
*COULD* Jonno be one of Fox's anonymous "multiples"??...
For those who may be new to this discussion...
"Quackbuster" Ethnomusicologist Aaron A. Fox, PhD is the fine fellow who
called me a "fucking idiot" for proposing pardons in advance for MDs...
"Quackbuster" Ethnomusicologist Fox is also the fine fellow who blithely
violated ethnomusicologist ideals during his censorship orchestrations...
See Ethnomusicologist "Quackbuster" censors; perpetuates infant screams
http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=570549136
Jonno wrote (in reply to John Bain I think),
>I would say "trashing"...is part of the normal give-and-take communication
in debates..."Bashing"? - ad >hominem/personal attack..."Alts" in this
group seem quite adept at this.
>http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=589553037
Gastaldo remarks further:
I have demonstrated here that JONNO is quite adept at "bashing"/ad
hominem/personal attack.
I welcome adjustments of any perceived subluxations in this
adjustment/post...
ONWARD TO FURTHER FLYING AD HOMINEMS...and my replies...
"Skeptic" (?) Amigo4440 wrote:
>Regarding your claim to be "not deluding yourself", I beg to differ....I
believe that you are so enmeshed in >your delusions as to have lost your
grasp entirely on reality (if you ever had such grasp).
>http://www.remarq.com/read/14325/q_GL-rUU25gAC-9xX#LR
Just like Jonno, Amigo4440 offered NO substantive criticism...
Earth to Amigo4440: MANY if not MOST of us had certain key realities DENIED
as MDs LIED.
For example, many if not most American males were denied the reality of
having a complete penis...
Also, even as many if not most American VAGINAS were
slashed/"episiotomized" - many if not most American babies were denied the
reality of maximal outlet diameter at delivery...
MDs directly and indirectly ADMIT they are KILLING some babies by denying
the reality of maximal outlet diameter at delivery...
See...
AAP's grisly sexism
http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=575816827
Make a big episiotomy/Suprapubic insanity...
http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=573104004
Further in regard to Amigo4440's "reality":
Roughly half of all American babies are forced to deal with the "reality"
that they must be denied DAILY immunizations because MD-needle-vaccinators -
who anti-scientifically addicted America to bottle-feeding - STILL are
behaving anti-scientifically!!
American MDs are STILL failing to explicitly inform Americans that
breast-feeding women are astonishing DAILY immunizers who scan their babies'
environments for pathogens and manufacture SPECIFIC antibodies which they
"inject" with their breasts on a DAILY basis...
See...
AAP’s deletion sucks
http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=578510144
DCs should promote DAILY immunizations - the ultimate in immunologic
adjusting
http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=583795586
DCs are *almost* in the club...
http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=584285072
"Skeptic" Peter Bowditch of Australia publicly suggested that he read my
evidence of truly massive American MD criminal negligence by creating "The
Toddy," an "unhinged lunatic" award in my "honour"...
Here is how "Skeptic" Bowditch announced on the usenet that he was creating
an "unhinged lunatic" award in my "honour"...
>I am instituting a new award at The Millenium Project. It will be called
the "Toddy" in honour of Todd Gastaldo >DC and will be granted for the
Unhinged Lunatic Rant of the Week. (It says "week", but it will actually be
>whenever I feel like it.) In order to give the rest of us a chance to win
sometimes, Dr Gastaldo himself will >only be eligible to win one award per
month...Suggestions and nominations are always welcome. I can't >read all
this stuff myself.
>http://www.remarq.com/read/14325/q_OQ2ZVpxRS0C-9kg#LR
>
Just like Jonno, "Skeptic" Bowditch offered no SUBSTANTIVE criticsim of my
evidence of MD-lies and MD-inflicted mass human suffering.
When "Skeptic" Bowditch awarded me the first "Toddy," he wrote:
>[Gastaldo's post Kali and Kingoff: "Dark side" clowns]...is a fine example
of Toddism to start the awards off >with.
>http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/unhinged/gastaldo000218.htm
>
(NOTE: I reread my post "Kali and Kingoff: 'Dark side' clowns" on Mr.
Bowditch's site and was quite pleased - both with the content of my post
(NOTHING "lunatic" about it) - and with the fact that Mr. Bowditch seemed to
have accurately reproduced it. Just in case someone wants to argue my
contention here that there was NOTHING "lunatic" about my post - just in
case "Skeptic" Bowditch takes it down - here is the Deja archive URL....
http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=587220620 )
Unfortunately, "Skeptic" Bowditch offers no substantive criticism - no
EVIDENCE that I am an "unhinged lunatic."
"Skeptic" Bowditch does however offer demonstrable falsehoods:
For example, he writes:
>[Todd Gastaldo DC]...is seriously against...the positions assumed during
childbirth...[and]...he is against >conventional
immunisation...[He]...manages to bring these things into any conversation,
no matter what the >topic.
>http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/unhinged.htm
>
First of all, to my knowledge, I have NEVER brought these false "things"
alleged by "Skeptic" Bowditch into ANY conversation.
Secondly, "the" positions assumed during childbirth are many. I am opposed
to only TWO positions assumed during childbirth - and those only during late
second stage. See the "Make a big episiotomy" URL above.
Thirdly, I most definitely am NOT opposed to "conventional immunization"!!!
Indeed, I am greatly in FAVOR of immunization - whether it occurs TRULY
conventionally - as in children following breast-feeding - or following
MD-needle-vaccinators making their immunization attempts (which aren't
always successful) - or after nature performs ITS truly conventional
immunizations via natural disease.
The ONLY things I oppose in regard to immunization are: 1)
MD-needle-vaccinators attempting to make their vaccination exertions
MANDATORY; and 2) MD-needle-vaccinators hijacking the word "immunization"
after having anti-scientifically addicted America to bottle-feeding - STILL
concealing astonishing immunization information about breast-feeding mothers
(see above) - thereby in effect STILL denying MASSIVE numbers of babies
MASSIVE numbers of DAILY immunizations.
"Skeptic" Bowditch writes:
>I am one of those people who likes his facts to be correct.
>http://users.bigpond.net.au/peterb/interest.htm
>
Hopefully, "Skeptic" Bowditch will correct the false "things" he says about
me...
As an interesting aside, Mr. Bowditch writes of an "alternative medicine"
website which promotes child abuse:
>[T]here are people who are actively campaigning to kill and maim
children...The most depressing and >offensive site I have ? ever seen on the
Internet belonged to an organisation which wants to stop people
>vaccinating their children. I would not provide a link to a paedophile
site, and I will not provide a link to this >child-abuse site either.
>http://users.bigpond.net.au/peterb/interest.htm
"Skeptic" Bowditch should provide the link to the "child-abuse" site so
visitors to his site can verify his claims that "child-abuse" is indeed
being advocated. Without the link, the persons being accused of promoting
child abuse cannot protest/defend themselves - and the entire "alternative
medicine" community is smeared...
Regarding "Skeptic" Bowditch and child abuse...
By naming an "unhinged lunatic" award in my "honour"...
By saying false "things" about me...
"Skeptic" Bowditch is, in effect, promoting DEFINITE (yet unprosecuted)
child abuse.
WHY is "Skeptic" Bowditch so explicitly pejorizing my EVIDENCE that the same
American medical profession that anti-scientifically addicted America to
bottle-feeding is STILL denying MASSIVE numbers of babies MASSIVE numbers of
FREE daily immunizations?
"Skeptic" Bowditch? You reading?
"Skeptic" Bowditch wrote in reply to someone who threatened a lawsuit...
>>>>Fraud? I've committed fraud?<<<<
http://www.remarq.com/read/14325/q_qPuY6cQ3-gC-9yw#LR
Fraud is misrepresentation and misrepresentation is illegal (defamation) if
it is intentional.
I do not know whether "Skeptic" Bowditch is intentionally misrepresenting
me.
1. I would like him to correct his demonstrably false "things" about me...
2. And I really am hoping he will post some substantive criticism of the
post that won me the first "Toddy"...
ONWARD TO KINGOFF...
Senior medical intern (acupunture student) Andrew Kingoff ignores the
MD-inflicted mass human suffering and pretends that the MD lies aren't
obvious:
>[I]...certainly don't have the expertise on the topic to "confront" those
who are trained and licensed to do so.
>http://www.remarq.com/read/14325/q_pP4zQfOrGsC-9cN#LR
In spite of this admitted lack of expertise, Mr Kingoff joins "Skeptic"
Bowditch in deciding I am a lunatic...
>Todd [Gastaldo] is truly a renaissance man amongst Lunatics.
>http://www.remarq.com/read/14325/qAu4-Kg1bICQC-9zq#LR
>
>I have medical training & clinical experience.
>http://www.remarq.com/read/14325/q_64itAH3wRgC-9_C#LR
>
>...my DSM IV citation on paranoid schizophrenia....shouldn't be construed
as being limited to Todd!
>http://www.remarq.com/read/14325/q_Mo-zSwXNuwC-98n#LR
Mr. Kingoff offers NO support for his contention - presumably derived from
his medical training & clinical experience - that I am a lunatic/paranoid
schizophrenic...
Mr. Kingoff suggests (as did Jonno) that lack of public responses in support
of my ideas - plus 50 private responses he received in opposition - means
that my ideas are erroneous...
Mr. Kingoff writes:
>Todd, I have received a flood of letters, almost 50 of them from people
[a]pplauding me for my >correspondence with you. I have had 3 people offer
to nominate me for the presidency based only on my >Anti-Todd-Rhetoric...
http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=587333636
At this just cited URL, Mr. Kingoff asked:
>By the way, Todd, did your wife have a love of clowns prior to (perhaps
the proximal cause of) your marriage >OR was it developed afterwards as a
much needed coping mechanism? I can theorize that, love being blind, >a
sufficiently powerful enough love of clowns could make it tolerable for your
wife to be around you....but how >do you stand yourself? Tired of the
Bouncing Clown Face in the Mirror? Then Heed My Words! Until then:
>Boing!!!!!! Boing!!!!!! Boing!!!!!! Boing!!!!!!
>
My wife thought this very funny! - especially the part about her love of
clowns making me tolerable! She notes that I do like to clown around - so
maybe that's what she finds attractive!
I am NOT clowning around, though, as I wonder here about Mr. Kingoff's
lying...
Mr. Kingoff appears to truly believe the following bald lie...
"People who discuss Medicine are discussing SCIENCE."
http://www.remarq.com/read/14325/q_7KLMyTCYTwC-91G#LR
I say the above is a bald lie because NO one has substantively refuted my
contention that MOST medical and surgical behaviors of American medicine
(numerically speaking) - are obviously CRIMINAL behaviors perpetuated in
part by obvious MD-lies but also because MD-funded law enforcement looks the
other way.
See...
PTs/Dr. Laura/Edell to ask Atty Gen'l Lockyer to stop the child abuse?
http://www.deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=496107936
Columbia U. Senate/RUPP: Emergency! Will you help the tiniest Americans and
their mothers?
http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=530202433
I say again: NO one has substantively refuted my contention that MOST
medical and surgical behaviors of American medicine (numerically speaking) -
are obviously CRIMINAL behaviors perpetuated in part by obvious MD-lies but
also because MD-funded law enforcement looks the other way.
Mr. Kingoff recently wrote:
>I am against...ludicrous, unfounded claims and the people who make them &
believe them.
>http://www.remarq.com/read/14325/q_OBZxGsSQzkC-99h#LR
This senior medical intern is IGNORING obvious MD-lies - obvious MD-lies
that have most American male babies screaming writhing and bleeding - and
sometimes dying - MD-lies that buttress routine MD-fetal skull
squashing/vagina slashing!!
WHY?????????????
ATTENTION Andrew Kingoff Acupuncturist...
Meet Andrew Kingoff Astrologist...
http://www.worldemail.com/astrolog.htm
I am hoping Andrew Astrologist will look at the celestial bodies and find
out:
1) why you (and others) ignore MD-inflicted mass human suffering - and
2) why you (and others) focus instead on the notion that Gastaldo is being
adversely affected by the shifting phases of the celestial body called the
moon. (see "luna" below*******)
Main Entry: lu·na·tic
Pronunciation: 'lü-n&-"tik
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English lunatik, from Old French or Late Latin; Old French
lunatique, from Late Latin lunaticus, from Latin *********luna; from the
belief that lunacy fluctuated with the phases of the moon
Date: 14th century
1 a : affected with lunacy : INSANE b : designed for the care of insane
persons <lunatic asylum>
2 : wildly foolish
Mr. Kingoff pretends he is interested in truth:
>"My duty as a physician is to the truth so that I can do my duty to the
patient, PERIOD."
>http://www.remarq.com/read/14325/qAbH4xnMYLOkC-9y7#LR
>
He writes:
>As a senior acupuncture intern, I have treated many women for this disorder
(amenorrhea & dismenorrhea). >Acupuncture, herbs, & nutritonal advice all
contribute to remedying this disorder.
>http://www.remarq.com/read/14325/qAXGqvYEKivIC-99z#LR
Mr. Kingoff replied sarcastically to Jan Drew's request for evidence that
acupuncture is effective:
>Ah, I missed you even more than Todd!
>
>At least Todd put some time and uh,....uuuummmm some creativity in his
work.
>http://www.remarq.com/read/14325/qAbH4xnMYLOkC-99Z#LR
Jan replied:
>[E]ither put up or shut up. You are here, you are an
acupuncturist...........SO ANSWER the question already. >You are a big
farce, squawking about what others should do, and you won't do it yourself.
Doesn't do much >for your credibility........CHICKEN!
>
Referring to "babies" (!) Mr. Kingoff evaded...
>The examples I gave are of established physical laws. These babies are
iron-clad, and for my purposes, >indisputable. While I won't say that the
current body of evidence on Acupuncture is 100% as clearly >demonstrated, I
do believe that my burden of proof has been met.
>
John Bain responded...
>Andrew, when I asked about studies on acupuncture you would recommend to
us, you wouldn't post any. >Please explain why you >believe your burden of
proof has been met. Is it because you claim not to make >claims? That is
not correct. You claimed that your practice of acupuncture worked better
than those of the >'Jedi Knights' among your collegues. Or are you now
saying that is your opinion only and not necessarily >true. Is everything
you say your opinion only and not necessarily true....
>
So far (as usual), I have seen no substantive response from student
acupuncturist Kingoff...who apparently thought his Todd "creativity" ad
hominem clever enough to use it in argument with Jan Drew and John Bain.
Mr. Kingoff, recently wrote tongue-in-cheek:
>Todd's...[idea of advanced pardons for all MDs is]likely to pass.
>http://www.remarq.com/read/14325/qAGoC1gI2_tYC-98Y#LR
Mr. Kingoff is referring here to my recommendation that all MDs be pardoned
in advance to encourage them to end their grisly behaviors sooner.
I mention this because Mr. Kingoff appeared when "Quackbuster" Fox
disappeared - and "Quackbuster" Fox is the guy who called the idea of
pardoning MDs in advance "fucking idiot[ic]." See Foxbusting, URL above.
ANOTHER ACUPUNCTURIST...
Gary Lee Fletcher (Kali) - another acupuncturist - scoffed at my idea of
that MDs should be pardoned in advance...
He wrote:
>What a wimp!! All of this scaremongering and now you want to PARDON
[t]hem -- IN ADVANCE? I thought >they were skull crushing monsters and
slashers!? How about strong armed robbers who have far less >numbers of
victims? Can't they at least get a slap on the wrist?
>(Fletcher/Kali quoted in my reply to him)...
http://www.egroups.com/group/chiro-list/369.html?
Yes I do want to pardon them in advance. They are cultural authorities
trapped in to present grisly behaviors by older MDs back in medical school.
See for example the quotes of a recent Tufts medical school graduate in
"Blaming Mimi/GTE Foxwatch#1"...
http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=564930745
Mr. Fletcher/Kali has known about my quest to help the helpless since
1997...
http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=278121483
Mr. Fletcher/Kali thinks it is OK for MDs to take three years to end mass
human suffering...
Mr. Fletcher/Kali says his web page is about,
"Integrated Power and Iron Grip Control"
http://members.xoom.com/arniskali/
Mr. Fletcher/Kali says:
>many [MDs] trust me and refer people to me. I build up trust in the medical
community.
>http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=589633083
Why YES!
That's the ticket!
Ignore infant screams - "courageously" speak up publicly - hurl ad hominem
at Gastaldo - and DEFEND American MD-footdragging that is perpetuating
American MD-infliction of mass human suffering!
Mr. Fletcher/Kali publicly curries favor with MDs! It's good for business!
Some remarks about Mr. Fletcher/Kali's pejorative remarks about
chiropractic...
I was trained as a doctor of chiropractic.
Though I now restrict my practice to that part of chiropractic (education)
which all may practice - licensed, degreed or not...
I was amused to read Mr. Fletcher/Kali's self-serving advice to health care
consumers...
Mr. Fletcher/Kali wrote (self-servingly):
>I have seen people with things like heartburn, headaches, and back pain
that turned out to have cancer! Yes, >this is statistically
rare...[but]...I've...seen medical doctors slip up in a ton of these
situations...Do not trust the >diagnos[is] of any OTHER acupuncturist...
(emphasis added)
>http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=545111361
I was also amused at Mr. Fletcher/Kali's Barrett Parrot-like (see his 1997
post above) swipe at doctors of chiropractic who are trained to diagnose and
who may - in Mr. Fletcher/Kali's state (California) - diagnose ANY disease -
not just "seemingly minor problems"...
(Important legal point: In 1976 the California Attorney General wrote that
including diagnosis as part of the practice of chiropractic was “correct if
for no other reason but that in many instances it is necessary for a
chiropractor to determine that a patient’s difficulty or ailment is outside
the permissible scope of his own practice.” [59 Atty.Gen.Ops. 421 (1976)
citing 19 Atty.Gen.Ops. 201 (1952)] )
Mr. Fletcher/Kali writes:
>In some places it is, of course, legal to go to [a] chiropractor...for
seemingly minor problems. Do not trust the >diagnoses of
any...chiropractor...Get it checked by a mainstream doctor first, get
cleared by them, THEN you >can use adjunct treatment.
>http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=545111361
This is poppycock in my (admittedly biased) view.
Everyone should see her/his own trusted health professional first before
taking ANYONE'S health advice - but I would HIGHLY recommend going to the
doctor of chiropractor first - especially if persons are suffering from one
of the most common medical conditions: low back problems - acute or
chronic...
Getting back to Mr. Fletcher/Kali's statement that he has seen MDs "slip up
in a ton of...situations"...
While still in spinal adjusting practice, I was amazed at what MDs miss!
PATIENTS were amazed!
Two patients with arrhythmias congratulated me after their physical exams -
saying that MDs "NEVER" caught those arrhythmias! (I asked both of these
patients why they hadn't mentioned their arrhythmias when I took their
histories. Both said that their arrhythmias were benign conditions - which
they were - which may be the reason MDs never caught them. Just the same -
a complete physical is a complete physical. Perhaps the MDs caught the
arrythmias, quietly wrote them down on the chart and just didn't saying
anything. In spite of this possibility, I advised both patients to see an
MD regarding their arrhythmias and noted that I had done so in their
charts...)
Although the MDs discussed above may NOT have missed my patients' cardiac
arrhythmias; some MDs (and likely some DCs) need further training in even
SIMPLE auscultation - like for example, how to take blood pressure...
Markandu et al. [2000] write:
>[A]ssessment of the technical knowledge needed to measure blood pressure by
the ausculatory technique >was also carried out amongst medical and nursing
staff. This showed a considerable level of ignorance...a >concerted effort
is needed to instruct health care professionals on the importance of more
accurate >measurement of blood pressure. [Markandu et al. (Blood Pressure
Unit, Department of Medicine, St >George's Hospital Medical School, London
SW17 ORE, UK). Journal of Human Hypertension (2000) 14, >31-36.]
Regarding other uses of the stethoscope...
Woywodt et al. [1999] wrote:
>Cardiopulmonary auscultation should receive more emphasis in the medical
school curriculum and clinical >training. [Woywodt et al. (Franz Volhard
Clinic, Berlin, Germany. lu...@fvk-berlin.de). Arch Intern Med 1999 >Nov
8;159(20):2477-9]
And Gibbs [2000] writes:
>Few physicians would disagree...In today's world of high technique
medicine, auscultation is quickly >becoming a lost art ... many medical
professionals now rely on tests for diagnosis rather than auscultation >and
physical diagnosis. [Trevor Gibbs, director. Community Studies Unit,
Department of Primary Care, >University of Liverpool. BMJ 2000;320:256 ( 22
January )]
Auscultation is but one area of diagnostic expertise.
Another is radiologic diagnosis...
DCs shine in an important aspect of radiologic diagnosis...
Taylor et al. [1995] tested students, clinicians, radiology residents, and
radiologists in medicine and chiropractic in the interpretation of abnormal
lumbosacral spine radiographs and reported:
>[T]he test results of chiropractic radiologists, chiropractic radiology
residents, and chiropractic students was >significantly higher than that of
the corresponding medical categories (general medical radiologists, medical
>radiology residents, and medical students, respectively)... [Taylor et al.
(Department of Radiology, University >of California, Medical Center, San
Diego, USA). Spine 1995 May 15;20(10):1147-53]
I say again: From the perspective of one of the most frequent reasons
people seek care - acute and chronic low back problems - it makes good sense
to see the doctor of chiropractic FIRST - but readers should, of course, ask
their trusted health professional before taking this advice...
BTW, a plug for the chiropractic colleges where I received my training: I
graduated from Los Angeles College of Chiropractic (LACC) after attending
two other fine chiropractic educational institutions: Western States
College of Chiropractic (WSCC) and Texas Chiropractic College (TCC)...
(Of course, LACC, WSCC and TCC are not responsible for any subluxations in
any of my adjustments/posts. Obviously, subluxations in my
adjustments/posts are of my own doing. I welcome input - public or
private - from anyone who perceives subluxations in my adjustments/posts.)
As I noted at the beginning of this post...
Perhaps the most remarkable thing about chiropractic education in diagnosis
is that it is so successful inspite of the fact that DCs have been OBVIOUSLY
ILLEGALLY denied access to the multi-billion dollar per year hospital
residency boondoggle (that is still being unfairly dominated by organized
medicine and MDs)...
See Gastaldo's consumer complaint to FCLB <---HOT! All chiro students
should read!
http://www.deja.com/=rd/getdoc.xp?AN=548556500
Perhaps the most remarkable thing about MEDICAL education - in the U.S. at
least - is that much of it - indeed MOST of it (numerically speaking) -
involves forcing medical students to engage in obviously illegal behaviors
perpetuated by obvious MD lies...
So far NO one has substantively refuted this contention.
As ad hominems fly - as usenet MDs lie - America's most helpless patients
are strapped boards and forced to endure American MD-inflicted mass human
suffering.
See TWO lying Foxes/MDs and DCs in bed together?
http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=586079191
Finally, this...
As promised above, here is the result of the Deja.com archive search that
suggested to me that Jonno's appearance was stimulated by my post
"Foxbusting."
Fox never replied.
Fox has "multiples"...
Maybe Fox *did* reply...
Results for: "~g misc.health.alternative ~a jonno" Power Search
Messages
1-10 of exactly 10 matches Save this search
Date Subject Forum Author
02/26/2000 Perceptions of Truth misc.health.alternati jonno
02/25/2000 Re: Alternative doctors = ch misc.health.alternati jonno
02/22/2000 Re: Gastaldo = POSEUR extrao misc.health.alternati jonno
02/21/2000 Re: The Rife Machine misc.health.alternati Jonno
02/21/2000 Re: The Rife Machine misc.health.alternati Jonno
02/21/2000 Re: Gastaldo: "Dark Side" Gh misc.health.alternati Jonno
02/21/2000 Re: The Rife Machine misc.health.alternati jonno
02/20/2000 Re: Foxbusting - more MD "lo misc.health.alternati jonno
02/16/2000 Re: The Rife Machine and Lan misc.health.alternati jonno
02/12/2000 Re: Foxbusting - more MD "lo misc.health.alternati jonno
http://www.deja.com/[ST_rn=ps]/qs.xp?ST=PS&svcclass=dnyr&QRY=&defaultOp=AND&
DBS=1&OP=dnquery.xp&LNG=ALL&subjects=&groups=misc.health.alternative&authors
=jonno&fromdate=&todate=&showsort=date&maxhits=100
Todd D. Gastaldo, D.C.
8948 SW Barbur Blvd
Box 6
Portland, OR 97219
FAX (815) 366-2814
TEL (503) 640-0456
http://www.egroups.com/group/chiro-list
P.S. Mr. Kingoff just asked Jan Drew,
>I have contempt for the scientifically illiterate who vainly pontificate
and spread medieval era notions...
>
>...[A]re you seriously making an argument for scientific illiteracy amongst
the formally educated?
>http://www.remarq.com/read/14325/q_64itAH3wRgC-9_s#LR
American MDs are formally educated.
According to a 1990 article in AMA's journal:
“[T]he intellectual foundation of medical care...is...whatever a physician
decides is by definition correct.” [Eddy DM. The challenge. (Jan12)1990
JAMA]
American MDs have fine ethical STATEMENTS - but American MDs ignore those
fine ethical STATEMENTS as infants scream and writhe and bleed and sometimes
die...
See AAP's grisly sexism
http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=575816827
Fortunately, some American MDs are admitting the obvious...
George Denniston, M.D., M.P.H. writes:
"I was a medical student, so a lot of the responsibility was mine. I
clearly violated, all in one instant, the Golden Rule (I certainly would
not have wanted that done to me); the major tenet of medical practice,
First, Do No Harm; and all seven Principles of the American Medical
Association's Code of Ethics. Mind you, I did not realize it then, as
unwary medical students do not realize it today." George Denniston,
M.D., M.P.H. http://www.gepps.com:80/circexp.htm
http://weber.u.washington.edu/d60/gcd/DOC/
http://www.deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=247236458
Instead of immediately stopping the mass human suffering in accord with the
law,
One prominent MDs threatened a lawsuit - see “Dr. Poland suing Gastaldo??”…
http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=271086674
This same MD's pediatric trade union STILL tells a bald lie! See above...
NOT EVEN MD 'SKEPTICS' TAKE ACTION!!
NOT EVEN THOSE CHARGED WITH INVESTIGATING CLAIMS OF THE PARANORMAL!!
As I noted in "Clergymen Harris and Barrett, et al. [circ/AIDS]"...
>>>>>>>BEGIN excerpt of "Clergyman Harris and Barrett
http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=296136971 <<<<<<<<<
This is being written because the 1997 AAP Task Force on Circumcision may be
about to use HIV/AIDS "epidemiology" to declare a human body part "a mistake
of nature."
After Heretic Gastaldo recently quoted HIV dissidents on chiro-list - and
made no mention of HIV promoters - it occurred to Gastaldo that he should
make sure and call chiro-list's attention to the opposition - specifically
to Clergyman Harris' sermons, which can be viewed on sci.med... (One or two
brief sermons are reproduced below, with responses from a British man who
calls himself "himself.")
Incidentally, Heretic Todd Gastaldo, DC refers to frequent sci.med poster
Steve Harris, MD as a "clergyman" because in past exchanges on sci.med,
Clergyman Harris inferred that Gastaldo was an "heretic." Heretic Gastaldo
openly admits that Clergyman Harris gives good pro-HIV/AIDS sermons - and
that Clergyman Harris' sermons *seem* to be as good as the sermons of HIV
dissidents...
Heretic Gastaldo seems to recall that Clergyman Harris wrote an article
responding to those who do not believe the HIV/AIDS hypothesis; and Heretic
Gastaldo seems to recall further that Clergyman Harris' article appeared in
Skeptical Inquirer, the magazine of the Committee for the Scientific
Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal/CSICOP.
Mention of CSICOP brings me to "Quackbuster" Stephen Barrett, MD who is a
Fellow of CSICOP and who is **STILL** silent about my idea that CSICOP
should investigate the following "claim of the paranormal" - the Biblical
notion that Jews will eventually have all of the land between the Nile and
the Euphrates (and the people living thereon) *IF* they mutilate infants in
perpetuity.
"Quackbuster" Barrett is also silent on the matter of ancient and modern
rabbis advocating the amputation of far more infant foreskin than God
originally/allegedly commanded...
In this latter regard, according to Hershel Shanks, editor of the Jewish
magazine Moment, ancient Jews OFTEN changed the Biblical rules.
The following digression may be of interest to some readers....
There is apparently a Biblical rule (or a rabbinic interpretation of that
rule) which forbids men and women from praying together.
Moment Editor Shanks carried an article recently about how Orthodox Jews
caused a "riot" at a special wall in Israel, shouting "Nazi! Nazi!" at
fellow Jews praying there (male and female) not of the Orthodox persuasion.
Shanks' most recent issue of Moment (Dec 97) carries an article about
another confrontation between Conservative and Orthodox Jews. Israeli
police reportedly first let Conservative Jews pray near the special wall -
and then, after they had been praying for awhile, the Israeli police
reportedly told them they would be arrested if they didn't leave, reportedly
because some head Orthodox Jews had decided they didn't like the fact that
male and female Conservative Jews were praying again together at the special
wall.
According to the article in Moment, some Conservative Jews reportedly got
trampled - and Orthodox Jews reportedly spat and "hissed" - as the police
pushed them back.... (Note: I will send my post "Judaism was hijacked" to
any who ask... To Mark Probe, I my work to end ritual and routine infant
circumcision upsets you, perhaps justifiably so. I do not however consider
myself "anti-Jewish" or "anti-Semitic" or "neo-Nazi" as you have labelled
me. As you can see for yourself, the term "Nazi" is a soft and squishy
thing - Orthodox Jews are reportedly shouting "Nazi! Nazi!" at Conservative
Jews in public. If you see errors in my posts, please post them when you
post your epithets. Thank you.)
Perhaps strangest of all, "Quackbuster" Barrett ignores the fact that the
California Medical Association (CMA; see below) ignored its own Scientific
Board to perpetuate American medicine's most frequent surgical behavior, a
surgery which is IDENTICAL to the mutilation now involved in the "claim of
the paranormal" that Jews will own land in the Middle East as long as they
mutilate infants in perpetuity...
One last key bizarre fact about "Quackbuster" Barrett. He and National
Council Against Health Fraud President William Jarvis, PhD actually distort
the scientific literature to promote infant screams, and their distortion is
almost identical to that engaged in by the American Academy of Pediatrics;
see below; and see Barrett, Jarvis et al. Consumer Health: A Guide to
Intelligent Decisions. Madison, WI: Brown & Benchmark 1997:87. (According
to Barrett, Jarvis et al.: "During the 1970s an American Academy of
Pediatrics task force concluded that there were no valid medical indications
for newborn infants to be circumcised. In 1989...the Academy
concluded...that there is no clear-cut medical answer on circumcision...")
"Quackbusters" Barrett and Jarvis are simply wrong. In 1989, although the
AAP Task Force generated plenty of pro-circumcision headlines, the 1989 AAP
Task Force report restated (for about the third time) AAP's "no valid
medical indications" position.
During 1989, the AAP Task Force meetings (which were closed) did generate
pro-circumcision propaganda, and the propaganda was so thick that the
Medical Tribune came out with the following headline:
MEDICAL TRIBUNE 30:16 (8 June 1989)
FORGET THOSE HEADLINES ABOUT CIRCUMCISION
AAP IS AGAINST ROUTINE CIRCUMCISION
http://www.cirp.org/CIRP/news/1989.06.08%3aMedicalTribune
>>>>>>>END excerpt of "Clergyman Harris and Barrett
http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=296136971 <<<<<<<<<
I've searched the Deja.com archive several times and for some reason I can't
find the following post - which is EXTREMELY relevant to this post - so I am
including it here inspite of its length..
-----Original Message-----
From: Todd Gastaldo <gast...@gte.net>
Newsgroups: alt.circumcision,misc.kids,sci.med,misc.kids.pregnancy
Cc: chiro...@silcom.com <chiro...@silcom.com>; BAS...@Clark.net
<BAS...@Clark.net>
Date: Thursday, October 30, 1997 9:53 AM
Subject: Schoen: JAMA's blackmailer reincarnated?
Attention Moment Senior Editor Judy OPPENHEIMER: Edgar SCHOEN, MD was
quite "forgetful" in his October 1997 Moment article on circumcision...
See below...
Indrakumar Vetharaniam wrote:
<<<<Well those trying to emotionally blackmail parents into...[not
circumcising]...are trying to exert control....>>>>
Todd D. Gastaldo, D.C. remarks:
The all-time champion emotional blackmailer of parents (in regard to
circumcision) was Morris Fishbein, MD…
Morris Fishbein, M.D. succeeded "Doc" Simmons at the helm of the AMA and
went on to establish a monopoly on medical editing, both in lay and
professional presses - [Josephson EM. Your Life is Their Toy 1940:223]
(See especially the AMA's "chestnut" at
ftp://ftp.harbor.cove.com/virtual/tetraftp/pub/Rockefeller_Drug_Censor_Empir
e.txt)
One author has called Fishbein the "Hitler of the healing arts." [Asher
C. Your Life is in Their Hands Washington D.C.: Dunlaun Press 1938:3,
held by the medical library of the University of California at San
Francisco.]
In 1935, Fishbein, the Dean of "medical science," began publishing false
circumcision information in his Modern Home Medical Advisor.
A chapter entitled "Sex Hygiene," authored by Thurman B. Rice, M.D.,
appeared in every edition (1935, 1939, 1940, 1941, 1942, 1948, 1951,
1953, 1956) of Fishbein’s Modern Home Medical Advisor and in the 1958
edition of Fishbein’s Illustrated Medical and Health Encyclopedia.
Fishbein and Rice informed readers that circumcision "diminishes" the
possibility of venereal disease and prevents "inflammation and
irritation," which conditions, they said, are associated with
bed-wetting and with "complications of the sexual life..."
Ignoring the fact that the foreskin is not retractable in 95% of infants
(a fact reported to the medical literature in 1949; see below), Fishbein
and Rice persisted in claiming in their 1951, 1953 and 1956 editions:
"If the foreskin can be completely and easily retracted most authorities
think that circumcision should not be done; but when there is the least
doubt about the matter decision should be made in favor of the
operation, which is a trivial one when done within the first week or two
of life."
Fishbein and Rice’s reference to circumcision as "trivial" ignored the
fact that babies scream, writhe and bleed - and sometimes die from their
circumcisions. (In the 1940s, the British medical literature documented
that many deaths were occuring. JAMA editor Fishbein should have been -
and probably was - reading the British medical literature.)
Fishbein and Rice also ignored the fact that retracting the foreskin
causes the very "inflammation and irritation" that circumcision
ostensibly prevents. They advised that if a baby is not circumcised,
"the mother or nurse should carefully retract the foreskin each day,"
keeping in mind that, "Many ‘nervous,’ restless, and ‘fidgety’ boys can
be helped by circumcision..."
For some reason, Fishbein kept publishing phony circumcision benefits
(and phony infant foreskin care advice) long after, as alluded to above,
the British physician Gairdner [The fate of the foreskin. Brit Med J,
1949;2:1433-1477], established in 1949 that most infant foreskins do not
retract.
In part as a result of Gairdner’s paper, infant circumcision was not
covered by the National Health Service and the British infant
circumcision rate fell to near zero. In other words, when British
physicians stopped getting state insurance money for doing
circumcisions, they stopped doing circumcisions.
Gairdner demonstrated that retracting infant foreskins WAS WRONG.
As alluded to above, Fishbein ignored Gairdner’s work - as did most
American physicians. Indeed, as late as 1964, Nelson’s Textbook of
Pediatrics was still claiming that if the infant foreskin was not
retractable by age three months - it should BE retracted - by an M.D.
armed with a blunt probe.
Gairdner's 1949 paper demonstrated that infant foreskin retraction can
cause a blood and pus encrusted mess which occasionally obstructs urine
flow and which is often "cured" by circumcision. He also demonstrated
that it is quite normal for the infant foreskin not to be fully
retractable until age 4 YEARS.
Øster later demonstrated [Arch Dis Child, 1968;48:200-203] that in 4% of
males the foreskin doesn't fully retract until age 17. After noting
that three of the 1900 boys he followed eventually required
circumcision, Øster stated his belief that his attempts at retraction
("however gentle") caused the need for those three circumcisions.
In addition to editing the Journal of the American Medical Association,
Fishbein edited the monthly magazine Hygeia, the January 1945 issue of
which contained the following letter from "California":
"To the Editor:--Are babies usually circumcised at birth, or later on?
Also, do most physicians think circumcision is essential if the child
does not have any difficulty with the penis?
California
"Answer.--Circumcision is needed when the foreskin is too long or the
opening is too small to permit retraction and adequate cleansing...
In 1947, Hygeia editor Fishbein apparently realized he forgot to answer
"California’s" 1945 second question ("do most physicians think
circumcision is essential"). In November 1947, Fishbein responded as
follows to a letter from "Pennsylvania":
"Question:--As prospective parents, we are confronted with the problem
of circumcision. In innumerable discussions with friends and doctors we
have been unable to determine whether circumcision is medically
justified.
Pennsylvania
"Answer:--Circumcision is ‘medically justified.’ There are many good
reasons why this operation should be performed in infancy. It is not
merely a part of cultural heritage...
"It is recognized that patients who have been circumcised are less apt
to contract venereal diseases. It is a well established fact that
cancer of the penis rarely, if ever, occurs in the circumcised. It is
almost a universal belief among urologists that every male patient
should be circumcised."
Two years later, in 1949, Fishbein re-published "California’s" January
1945 letter (and his January 1945 answer) in the October 1949 issue of
Hygeia - with no mention of the fact that he had already published it.
Why would Fishbein have re-published "California's" 1945 letter in 1949?
We can't know for sure, but it might have had something to do with
Gairdner’s 1949 paper, discussed above.
Certainly by 1958 Fishbein had to have known that the British
circumcision rate had plummeted to near zero - and that babies sometimes
die from their circumcisions...
Thus we see that, in regard to infant circumcision, Morris Fishbein, MD
of the AMA was one of the most powerful emotional blackmailers in
history.
Fishbein's modern counterpart is Edgar Schoen, MD who states in the
current issue of Moment magazine that "it was World War II that made
universal circumcision the standard in the United States."
[Schoen EJ. The circumcision decision. Moment. (Oct)1987:44-6,68-9]
Dr. Schoen "forgot" to mention Fishbein and the AMA!!!
Dr. Schoen created the "POTENTIAL medical benefits" scam in 1988-9 (see
below) - and then played it for all it was worth in his October 1997
Moment article - "helpfully" leaving out the word "potential"…
In proclaiming "new benefits," Dr. Schoen simply "forgot" to mention
that the 1989 American Academy of Pediatrics Task Force on Circumcision
(which he chaired) found NO medical indications for routine infant
circumcision.
In proclaiming that "increased risk of HIV in uncircumcised men was
originally discovered in Kenya the late 1980s," Dr. Schoen also "forgot"
to mention that the Scientific Board of his own trade union - the
California Medical Association - rejected a 1987 resolution stating that
it had been "confirmed" in Africa that circumcision reduces transmission
of HIV/AIDS...
Dr. Schoen "forgot" to mention that when I pointed out American
medicine's phony "babies can't feel pain" neurology in late 1987, the
CMA ignored its own Scientific Board in early 1988, and resurrected and
passed the squashed resolution which said that it had been "confirmed"
that circumcision prevents transmission of HIV/AIDS. [CMA Res. 305-88
passed by voice vote in the CMA House of Delegates on March 10, 1988]
Dr. Schoen also "forgot" to mention that, after I pointed out American
medicine's phony "babies can't feel pain" neurology, Dr. Ronald L.
Poland of the American Academy of Pediatrics wrote to tell me that there
were indeed no medical indications for the mass mutilation - and that
the AAP was appointing a Task Force to "study the matter."
Dr. Schoen chaired the AAP Task Force and Dr. Poland was a member... I
know that Dr. Schoen "forgot" most of these things because I
personally told him about them the day I called him back in 1988 and
asked to attend the meetings of the 1988-9 AAP Task Force on
Circumcision - right after it was announced that he would chair the AAP
Task Force…
More of Dr. Schoen’s "forgetfulness"…
Dr. Schoen "forgot" to mention that the month after I pointed out the
phony "babies can't feel pain" neurology, the New England Journal of
Medicine was finally moved to publish Anand and Hickey's article "Pain
in the Neonate and Fetus…" Anand had submitted his article over a year
earlier [Personal communication with Anand], but the Journal had been
refusing to publish it, because it was "too inflammatory" - because it
said what I had just publicized in my Oct. 11, 1987 letter to Poland at
AAP, which I had copied to the New England Journal of Medicine: American
medicine's phony "babies can't feel pain" neurology was indeed phony.
(An editorial in the same issue of the Journal stated that *infants*
incur the pain of their circumcisions - as the author of that editorial
waxed philosophically about how it would be impossible for MDs to
actually believe that babies can’t feel pain - a sentiment with which I
agree.)
Dr. Schoen "forgot" to mention in his October 1997 Moment article that
when one discovers one's profession "informing" parents with phony
"babies can't feel pain" neurology - to perform a medically unnecessary
penile mutilation - one does NOT form a Task Force to "study the matter"
- one IMMEDIATELY ends the screams - and THEN one studies the matter -
perhaps with the aid of the sheriff.
As noted above, the AAP did succeed in using Dr. Schoen's 1989 AAP Task
Force deliberations to issue forth with "potential medical benefits"
propaganda. Indeed, the propaganda was so thick that the Medical
Tribune had to tell PHYSICIANS (but not parents) that the AAP had found
no medical indications for the mutilation:
MEDICAL TRIBUNE 30:16 (8 June 1989)
FORGET THOSE HEADLINES ABOUT CIRCUMCISION
AAP IS AGAINST ROUTINE CIRCUMCISION
http://www.cirp.org/CIRP/news/1989.06.08%3aMedicalTribune
I have noted in separate posts how the AAP still perpetuates is
"potential medical benefits" propaganda on its web page...
And now parents are reading in Dr. Schoen's Moment article that there
are "new benefits" to routine (and ritual) infant circumcision - no
"potential" about it!!
This guy Schoen is one forgetful guy - as millions of American infants
per year continue to scream and writhe and bleed and sometimes die...
Finally - and perhaps most importantly - it should be noted that Dr.
Schoen "forgot" to mention that rabbis are advocating the amputation of
far more infant foreskin than God originally/allegedly commanded...
Ancient rabbis changed the Biblical rule on circumcision - from "tip"
circumcision to total foreskin amputation - in part because Jews -
including Jewish priests - were growing fond of wrestling in the nude
with Greeks (as was the Greek custom of the day) - and penises without
tips were objects of derision - so Jews were stretching them - so
ancient rabbis eventually decided to change the Biblical rule and
amputate the entire foreskin in infancy...
"...[T]he consequence was [the] attempt to appear like the Greeks by
epispasm ('making themselves foreskins')... [See Circumcision in Singer
I (and 400 others, eds.), 1901]
Forty years later (134 BCE), the high priest of Jerusalem, John
Hyrcanus, forcibly circumcised the Idumeans, "leading them to think they
were Jews." [Gribetz J, Greenstein EL, Stein RS. The Timetables of
Jewish History. New York: Simon and Schuster 1993. Judah Gribetz is
president of the Jewish Community Relations Council of New York.]
It was during this period that Jewish priests apparently decided that
stretching the foreskin was wrong and threatened the extermination of
those Jews who stretched their foreskins:
"The Book of Jubilee (xv. 26-27), written in the time of John Hyrcanus,
has the following: '...God's anger will be kindled against the children
of the covenant if they make the members of their body appear like those
of the Gentiles, and they will be expelled and exterminated from the
earth.'" [Charles, The Book of Jubilees iv.-ix. iii. 190-192, under
Circumcision in Singer I (and 400 others, eds.) The Jewish Encyclopedia.
New York: Ktav 1901.]
But Jews of this period apparently construed the "no stretching" decree
to mean that it was all right not to circumcise; for when the son of
John Hyrcanus took power in 104 BCE (by imprisoning his mother and
killing his brother), he forced circumcision on the residents of Galilee
- "many of them Jews." [Gribetz 1993]
The shift to total foreskin amputation is believed to have occurred one
hundred years later, after the unsuccessful Bar Kokba uprising against
the Roman Emperor Hadrian (who had completely outlawed circumcision):
"In order to prevent the obliteration of the "seal of the
covenant"...the Rabbis, probably after the war of Bar Kokba (see Yeb.
l.c.; Gen. R. xivi.), instituted the 'peri'ah' (the laying bare of the
glans), without which circumcision was declared to be of no value (Shab.
xxx. 6)." [See Circumcision in Singer I (and 400 others, eds.), 1901]
"Thenceforward [total foreskin amputation - the laying bare of the
glans] was the mark of Jewish loyalty." [See Circumcision in Singer I
(and 400 others, eds.), 1901]
Wallerstein indirectly noted in 1983 that ancient rabbis changed the
Biblical rule on circumcision:
"Originally, the surgery involved only cutting the tip of the foreskin.
This was changed in the Hellenic Period to prevent [Jews from]
elongat[ing] the foreskin stump in order to appear uncircumcised."
[Wallerstein E. Humanistic Judaism 1983;11(4):46]
And in the June 1997 issue of Moment, Hershel Shanks, editor of Moment,
noted that "the rabbis of the Talmud OFTEN changed the Biblical rules"
(emphasis added):
"A friend...[argued]...with regard to the Orthodox rabbis’ pronouncement
declaring Reform and Conservative not Judaism...[that]...[i]t’s all
traceable to the [U.S.] Reform decision nearly 15 years ago to adopt
patrilineality - a child born of a Jewish father, if raised as a Jew, is
Jewish....
"....[I]n Biblical times, Jewish descent was determined by the
Jewishness of the father...The rabbis changed that 2,000 year-old
tradition...Indeed the rabbis of the Talmud OFTEN changed the Biblical
rules (emphases added)..."
[Shanks H. Tolerance v. Halachah. Moment. (Jun)1997;22(3):6, 8-9]
Why would Schoen "forget" to mention all these facts about his
profession's grisly $200 million dollar per year most frequent surgical
behavior toward males??
Probably for the same reason that old emotional blackmailer Morris
Fishbein, MD published "California's" 1945 letter again in 1949...
One thing is sure: ending the screams INSTANTLY saves $200 million
dollars per year and PRESERVES the mutilation as a CHOICE American males
can make for themselves in adulthood...
But ending the mass infant screams also puts MDs at risk of going to
prison for their massive infant mutilation for profit scheme - which is
the real reason that Dr. Schoen is furiously pedaling/publicizing his
"increased risk of HIV in uncircumcised men" hypothesis - and
"forgetting" to mention that his own trade union (the CMA) ignored its
own Scientific Board to pedal the same notion in 1988 - just months
after the obvious criminal negligence (phony "babies can't feel pain"
neurology) was exposed...
Dr. Schoen notes correctly in his Moment article: "This documentation,
mostly in the past five years [1992-97], has led to recommendations to
expand male circumcision, even among adults, to control the AIDS
epidemic, in sub-Saharan Africa...
Dr. Schoen is saying, in effect, that Africans are now being asked to
help pay for American medicine's ongoing obvious crime against millions
of American infants...
Fortunately, modern rabbis (currently being attacked by other rabbis;
see Shanks [1997]; quoted above) are offering American Jews an
ideological basis not to mutilate…
Rabbi MN Kertner has written:
"[Circumcision] is not a sacrament which inducts the infant into
Judaism: his birth does that" [Rabbi MN Kertner. What is a Jew? New
York: Macmillan, 1973,1993] (Also, adult Jews who wish to remain
uncircumcised are accepted under Israel’s Law of Return, which indicates
that even "religious" circumcision is a CHOICE which may legitimately be
postponed until adulthood and beyond.)
And Rabbi Michael Lerner writes:
"The infliction of unnecessary pain is precisely what Judaism is
designed to fight against, so it makes little sense for us to be the
perpetrators on our children." [Rabbi Michael Lerner. Jewish Renewal NY:
G.P. Putnam’s Sons 1994:387])
I don’t think Dr. Schoen was being "forgetful" - anymore than I think
Dr. Fishbein was being "forgetful."
One of them (Fishbein) was responsible for INITIATING American
medicine’s grisly most frequent surgical behavior toward males with
obvious bald lies - and the other (Schoen) is now responsible for
PERPETUATING the crime with more bald lies - and much "forgetfulness."
I am still in favor of pardoning MDs (and ritual circumcisors) in
advance - and were it in my purview to do so - I would do so
immediately…
The infant screams could stop tomorrow if the media moguls decided to
take on the task of ending the screams and INSTANTLY saving $200 million
dollars per year by PRESERVING the mutilation as a CHOICE American males
can make for themselves in adulthood…
But the media moguls are in thick with organized medicine. Again, see
Josephson, "Your Life is Their Toy" [1940]; and see the AMA’s "chestnut"
at:
ftp://ftp.harbor.cove.com/virtual/tetraftp/pub/Rockefeller_Drug_Censor_Empir
e.txt
>>>>>>>> END Schoen: JAMA's blackmailer reincarnated? <<<<<<<<<
In answer to Mr. Kingoff's question,
>...[A]re you seriously making an argument for scientific illiteracy amongst
the formally educated?
>http://www.remarq.com/read/14325/q_64itAH3wRgC-9_s#LR
Earth to Kingoff! Formally educated American MD EXPERTS are PRETENDING
right now - in the Year 2000 - that babies screaming, writhing and bleeding
though American medicine's grisly most frequent surgical behavior toward
males aren't verbalizing their pain...
Formally educated American MD EXPERTS are PRETENDING right now that they
aren't standing on obvious MD-lies and obviously bogus MD-research as fetal
skulls are squashed/fetal brains are pinched/fetal shoulders are trapped -
EN MASSE...
American medicine qualifies as a religion!
>>>>>>>> BEGIN excerpt of MD-priest Uthman: You think ‘alternativists’ are
unscientific!! Look at ‘medicalists’ (your own profesion)...
http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=271820604 <<<<<<<<
Ed Uthman, MD wrote:
<<<<Back to the dictionary, Todd. Medicine is a profession, not a
religion.>>>>
_________________________________________________________
> Ed Uthman, MD
> <uth...@neosoft.com> "Nemo liber est qui
> <http://www.neosoft.com/~uthman/> corpore servit."
> Pathologist -Seneca
> Houston/Richmond, TX, USA
Todd D. Gastaldo, D.C. remarks:
Dr. Uthman is such a kidder. Why would he urge me to use a possibly
fallible dictionary when the information is right there in the infallible
medical literature?
“[T]he intellectual foundation of medical care...is...whatever a physician
decides is by definition correct.” [Eddy DM. The challenge. (Jan12)1990
JAMA]
"There is one quotation that captures the essence of what membership in both
the AMA and our state medical associations is all about...’Joining the AMA
is like joining a church...’ [Hopkins D reviewing Campion FD: The AMA and
U.S. Health Policy Since 1940, 1984, Review Press: Chicago, IL. In Western J
Med, 1985;142(2):273]
The medical profession is such a tyrannical religion that a federal court
and a federal appeals court had to order its largest diocese (the AMA) to
let individual MDs and individual hospitals make "individual decisions."
[Wilk CA. Medicine, monopolies, and malice. Garden City Park, NY: Avery
1996]
Incredibly, the AMA appealed!!
The U.S. Supreme Court refused to hear the Wilk v. AMA case in 1990, thus in
effect upholding the lower courts' opinions; at which point, coincidentally,
Eddy [1990; cited above] declared in effect that each individual MD is a
priest in the medical religion.
>>>>>>>> END excerpt of MD-priest Uthman: You think ‘alternativists’ are
unscientific!! Look at ‘medicalists’ (your own profesion)...
http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=271820604 <<<<<<<<
Getting back to Mr. Kingoff's question...
American MD experts aren't scientifically illiterate - they are
illegitimately embedded in the system as cultural authorities. See "Blaming
Mimi," URL above.
American MDs ignore the mass human suffering they are causing for the same
reason dogs lick their testicles...
Because they can...
Or can they?
See MDs frightened/Harvard MD Rind’s intellectual dishonesty
http://www.deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=490807417
Barry Williams, Editor of 'the Skeptic', the official magazine of Australian
Skeptics Inc. writes:
>Some human beings want to find out about the world around them and seek
knowledge, exhibit the habit of >inquiry, value scholarship, etc. Others
are so frightened of the world around them that they draw their infantile
>beliefs around them like a cloak, frantically avoid knowledge, inquiry or
scholarship, and flaunt their ignorance >like a badge of honour.
>http://www.onthenet.com.au/~stear/letterfrombarry.htm
American MDs *are* frightened (see URL above) - and at least one Australian
"Skeptic" is helping them perpetuate part of the reason for their fright.
ATTENTION: Australian Skeptic Editor Williams:
Australian "Skeptic" Peter Bowditch (discussed above) is, in effect, helping
"Skeptic" Stephen Barrett, MD ignore his obligations as a Fellow of the
Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal
(CSICOP)...
Australian Skeptic Editor Williams, you write:
>[T]here are people, some of whom have scientific qualifications, who hold
that the only way to know about >god is to read, in strictly literal terms,
books that are quite clearly (to any objective reader) the attempts of a
>tribal society to come to grips with forming into a nation and with 'their'
relationship with 'their' god.
>http://www.onthenet.com.au/~stear/letterfrombarry.htm
Editor Williams: A whole profession of people - American MDs - have
scientific QUALIFICATIONS - but they are behaving as if they are gods -
doing some AWFULLY grisly god work - as infants scream and writhe and bleed
and sometimes die..
American MDs are also doing other things - just as senseless - and
Australian "Skeptic" Peter Bowditch is going along with the truly massive
grisly gag - strongly suggesting that I am an "unhinged lunatic" for
protesting - and publishing demonstrable falsehoods about me. See above.
Editor Williams, will you please put Australian "Skeptic" Bowditch's bizarre
behavior on the agenda for discussion at the next meeting of Australian
Skeptics?
Please feel free to print out, reproduce and distribute this post. Same
goes for anyone else reading...
I think 100% of babies would want you to.
One last note for Editor Williams...
Please DON'T ask that Mr. Bowditch take down his "Toddy" site.
I would like him to leave it as is and add some SUBSTANTIVE criticism -
perhaps even opening his page up by telling people explicitly that he won't
censor their comments about his bizarre behavior.
Thank you,
Sincerely,
Todd D. Gastaldo, D.C.
8948 SW Barbur Blvd
Box 6
Portland, OR 97219
FAX (815) 366-2814
TEL (503) 640-0456
http://www.egroups.com/group/chiro-list
Fortunately, modern rabbis (currently being attacked by other rabbis;
see Shanks [1997]; quoted above) are offering American Jews an
ideological basis not to mutilate…
Rabbi MN Kertner has written:
"[Circumcision] is not a sacrament which inducts the infant into
Judaism: his birth does that" [Rabbi MN Kertner. What is a Jew? New
York: Macmillan, 1973,1993] (Also, adult Jews who wish to remain
uncircumcised are accepted under Israel’s Law of Return, which indicates
that even "religious" circumcision is a CHOICE which may legitimately be
postponed until adulthood and beyond.)
And Rabbi Michael Lerner writes:
Karuna
Kay Henson <no-...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:bZ_t4.80$o5.1...@homer.alpha.net...
>
Dear Kay,
I attempted to discuss some things with Mr Gastaldo in a reasonable way,
more than once. Each time, at a certain point in the communication, a) I
began to feel undermined as the person whom I am, and as a woman, and b) I
found I was facing something Quite Other than the genuine person ostensibly
presented. I do not understand how it occurred, only that it did.
Hopefully your own experience will be more positive. Please, take care. If
there is any way AT ALL that I can be of any kind of help to you, don't
hesitate to let me know.
Karuna
jonno
"Todd Gastaldo" <gast...@gte.net> wrote:
> *COULD* Jonno be one of Fox's anonymous "multiples"??...
>
You are in error. I am not Fox.
Gastaldo, how do you earn your living?
In absence of explanation (substantive or otherwise) -
are you doing all this on taxpayers' hard-earned money?
Jonno
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Peter Bowditch
>ATTENTION: Barry Williams, Editor for Australian Skeptics, Inc:
>
>Peter Bowditch - one of your members - apes "Quackbuster" Stephen Barrett
>MD. See the very end of this post...
Wow! I am busy with my real job right now, but I await my response
with a high level of excitement and anticipation.
........................................................
Peter Bowditch pet...@ratbags.com
The duped, brainwashed, ranting bloke at
The Millenium Project - The fundaments of the 'net
http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
Peter Bowditch
>ATTENTION: Barry Williams, Editor for Australian Skeptics, Inc:
>
>Peter Bowditch - one of your members - apes "Quackbuster" Stephen Barrett
>MD. See the very end of this post...
<snip lots of stuff about other people>
>"Skeptic" Peter Bowditch of Australia publicly suggested that he read my
>evidence of truly massive American MD criminal negligence by creating "The
>Toddy," an "unhinged lunatic" award in my "honour"...
You were lucky to be so honoured. Had I decided to do this a week
later the award would have been named after homeopath John Benneth who
has been telling me and anyone else who would listen that smouldering
bird carcasses were raining from the skies of Australia last
Wednesday.
>Here is how "Skeptic" Bowditch announced on the usenet that he was creating
>an "unhinged lunatic" award in my "honour"...
>
>>I am instituting a new award at The Millenium Project. It will be called
>the "Toddy" in honour of Todd Gastaldo >DC and will be granted for the
>Unhinged Lunatic Rant of the Week. (It says "week", but it will actually be
>>whenever I feel like it.) In order to give the rest of us a chance to win
>sometimes, Dr Gastaldo himself will >only be eligible to win one award per
>month...Suggestions and nominations are always welcome. I can't >read all
>this stuff myself.
>>http://www.remarq.com/read/14325/q_OQ2ZVpxRS0C-9kg#LR
>>
>
>Just like Jonno, "Skeptic" Bowditch offered no SUBSTANTIVE criticsim of my
>evidence of MD-lies and MD-inflicted mass human suffering.
I wasn't pretending to offer any sort of criticism of the evidence.
>When "Skeptic" Bowditch awarded me the first "Toddy," he wrote:
>
>>[Gastaldo's post Kali and Kingoff: "Dark side" clowns]...is a fine example
>of Toddism to start the awards off >with.
>>http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/unhinged/gastaldo000218.htm
>>
>
>(NOTE: I reread my post "Kali and Kingoff: 'Dark side' clowns" on Mr.
>Bowditch's site and was quite pleased - both with the content of my post
>(NOTHING "lunatic" about it) - and with the fact that Mr. Bowditch seemed to
>have accurately reproduced it.
I always try to accurately reproduce the words of others. One of my
chief criticism of the anti-vaccination liars is that they selectively
quote things. As these awards will generally involve having a bit of
fun at someone's expense, I have to let their own words do the
talking.
> Just in case someone wants to argue my
>contention here that there was NOTHING "lunatic" about my post - just in
>case "Skeptic" Bowditch takes it down - here is the Deja archive URL....
>http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=587220620 )
>
>Unfortunately, "Skeptic" Bowditch offers no substantive criticism - no
>EVIDENCE that I am an "unhinged lunatic."
It's the rants which are unhinged, not the writers. I thought I was
quite polite to you. Have a look at what I had to say about Tim Bolen
and the aforementioned John Benneth. They are unhinged lunatics. In
your case, I was emphasising style, not content.
>"Skeptic" Bowditch does however offer demonstrable falsehoods:
>
>For example, he writes:
>
>>[Todd Gastaldo DC]...is seriously against...the positions assumed during
>childbirth...[and]...he is against >conventional
>immunisation...[He]...manages to bring these things into any conversation,
>no matter what the >topic.
>>http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/unhinged.htm
>>
>
>First of all, to my knowledge, I have NEVER brought these false "things"
>alleged by "Skeptic" Bowditch into ANY conversation.
The use of the word "conversation" was a bit of artistic licence. Of
course, I am not privy to everything you have ever said, but it
certainly appears to me that you manage to include all of these topics
in anything you post to Usenet. The message to which I am responding
is an example of this.
>Secondly, "the" positions assumed during childbirth are many. I am opposed
>to only TWO positions assumed during childbirth - and those only during late
>second stage. See the "Make a big episiotomy" URL above.
I apologise. I will remove the word "the" and replace it by "some".
>Thirdly, I most definitely am NOT opposed to "conventional immunization"!!!
>
>Indeed, I am greatly in FAVOR of immunization - whether it occurs TRULY
>conventionally - as in children following breast-feeding - or following
>MD-needle-vaccinators making their immunization attempts (which aren't
>always successful) - or after nature performs ITS truly conventional
>immunizations via natural disease.
>
>The ONLY things I oppose in regard to immunization are: 1)
>MD-needle-vaccinators attempting to make their vaccination exertions
>MANDATORY; and 2) MD-needle-vaccinators hijacking the word "immunization"
>after having anti-scientifically addicted America to bottle-feeding - STILL
>concealing astonishing immunization information about breast-feeding mothers
>(see above) - thereby in effect STILL denying MASSIVE numbers of babies
>MASSIVE numbers of DAILY immunizations.
I am pleased to note that you are in favour of vaccination. I just
hadn't noticed this before.
>"Skeptic" Bowditch writes:
>
>>I am one of those people who likes his facts to be correct.
>>http://users.bigpond.net.au/peterb/interest.htm
>>
I certainly do.
>Hopefully, "Skeptic" Bowditch will correct the false "things" he says about
>me...
>
>As an interesting aside, Mr. Bowditch writes of an "alternative medicine"
>website which promotes child abuse:
>
>>[T]here are people who are actively campaigning to kill and maim
>children...The most depressing and >offensive site I have ? ever seen on the
>Internet belonged to an organisation which wants to stop people
>>vaccinating their children. I would not provide a link to a paedophile
>site, and I will not provide a link to this >child-abuse site either.
>>http://users.bigpond.net.au/peterb/interest.htm
>
>"Skeptic" Bowditch should provide the link to the "child-abuse" site so
>visitors to his site can verify his claims that "child-abuse" is indeed
>being advocated. Without the link, the persons being accused of promoting
>child abuse cannot protest/defend themselves - and the entire "alternative
>medicine" community is smeared...
The Australian Vaccination Network http://www.avn.org.au
I didn't name it on my personal site because that's not what that site
is for. I did name it on The Millenium Project, and, in fact, it was
the inspiration for that entire site.
>Regarding "Skeptic" Bowditch and child abuse...
>
>By naming an "unhinged lunatic" award in my "honour"...
>
>By saying false "things" about me...
>
>"Skeptic" Bowditch is, in effect, promoting DEFINITE (yet unprosecuted)
>child abuse.
>
>WHY is "Skeptic" Bowditch so explicitly pejorizing my EVIDENCE that the same
>American medical profession that anti-scientifically addicted America to
>bottle-feeding is STILL denying MASSIVE numbers of babies MASSIVE numbers of
>FREE daily immunizations?
>
>"Skeptic" Bowditch? You reading?
Yes.
>"Skeptic" Bowditch wrote in reply to someone who threatened a lawsuit...
>
>>>>>Fraud? I've committed fraud?<<<<
>http://www.remarq.com/read/14325/q_qPuY6cQ3-gC-9yw#LR
>
>Fraud is misrepresentation and misrepresentation is illegal (defamation) if
>it is intentional.
>
>I do not know whether "Skeptic" Bowditch is intentionally misrepresenting
>me.
>
>1. I would like him to correct his demonstrably false "things" about me...
>
>2. And I really am hoping he will post some substantive criticism of the
>post that won me the first "Toddy"...
I don't have any real problem with the issues that interest you, and I
don't doubt your sincerity in trying to right what you see to be a
wrong (or several wrongs). It's just that you have a somewhat unique
compositional style which may detract from the message you are trying
to convey.
<snip more stuff about other people>
<snip discussion of Dr Barrett, circumcision and comparative religion
studies>
>Barry Williams, Editor of 'the Skeptic', the official magazine of Australian
>Skeptics Inc. writes:
>
>>Some human beings want to find out about the world around them and seek
>knowledge, exhibit the habit of >inquiry, value scholarship, etc. Others
>are so frightened of the world around them that they draw their infantile
>>beliefs around them like a cloak, frantically avoid knowledge, inquiry or
>scholarship, and flaunt their ignorance >like a badge of honour.
>>http://www.onthenet.com.au/~stear/letterfrombarry.htm
>
>American MDs *are* frightened (see URL above) - and at least one Australian
>"Skeptic" is helping them perpetuate part of the reason for their fright.
>
>ATTENTION: Australian Skeptic Editor Williams:
>
>Australian "Skeptic" Peter Bowditch (discussed above) is, in effect, helping
>"Skeptic" Stephen Barrett, MD ignore his obligations as a Fellow of the
>Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal
>(CSICOP)...
What is this thing people have about Dr Barrett and me? Some nutcase
wrote to an acquaintance of mine the other day and called me
"Barrett's greatest fan". Our wives are starting to get suspicious.
The only contact we have ever had is about three email exchanges and I
have some of his books.
>Australian Skeptic Editor Williams, you write:
>
>>[T]here are people, some of whom have scientific qualifications, who hold
>that the only way to know about >god is to read, in strictly literal terms,
>books that are quite clearly (to any objective reader) the attempts of a
>>tribal society to come to grips with forming into a nation and with 'their'
>relationship with 'their' god.
>>http://www.onthenet.com.au/~stear/letterfrombarry.htm
>
>Editor Williams: A whole profession of people - American MDs - have
>scientific QUALIFICATIONS - but they are behaving as if they are gods -
>doing some AWFULLY grisly god work - as infants scream and writhe and bleed
>and sometimes die..
>
>American MDs are also doing other things - just as senseless - and
>Australian "Skeptic" Peter Bowditch is going along with the truly massive
>grisly gag - strongly suggesting that I am an "unhinged lunatic" for
>protesting - and publishing demonstrable falsehoods about me. See above.
I never said that. See above.
>Editor Williams, will you please put Australian "Skeptic" Bowditch's bizarre
>behavior on the agenda for discussion at the next meeting of Australian
>Skeptics?
You think I'm bizarre! You should come to the World Skeptics'
Conference in Sydney later this year and see the rest of them. I'm a
sobering influence.
>Please feel free to print out, reproduce and distribute this post. Same
>goes for anyone else reading...
>
>I think 100% of babies would want you to.
>
>One last note for Editor Williams...
>
>Please DON'T ask that Mr. Bowditch take down his "Toddy" site.
He won't. I won't.
>I would like him to leave it as is and add some SUBSTANTIVE criticism -
>perhaps even opening his page up by telling people explicitly that he won't
>censor their comments about his bizarre behavior.
A perusal of the Millenium Project site should soon tell you that I
don't censor any comments about me.
>Thank you,
>
>Sincerely,
Likewise.
Kay Henson
-- Kay
"Reuven Singer" <reuv...@netmedia.co.il> wrote in message
news:89bq5j$mfg$1...@news.netvision.net.il...
> Excellent post. You clearly show the ignorance of the original poster who
> merely took opinions from a few Jews at the periphery of Jewish thought to
> make it appear they were in the mainstream. There is a unanimity of
Jewish
> writing from the Torah on down that a male who is not circumcised has
broken
> the covenant with G-d and cut himself off from his people. Parenthetically
> the original poster confuses tribal identity which comes through the
father
> with one's identity as a Jew which comes through the mother.
willia...@my-deja.com
brilliant missive you quackbuster you...
keep it comin'..............