Video Petition : Saying no to a war against the Iraqi People
Mykm20
kill 'em all
Larry Jandro
and said:
> PICTURING PEACE
> ---------------
>
> This weekend in London at the anti-war demo we are starting a
> video petition against the proposed war against the Iraqi
> people.
It's not against the Iraqui people, thickhead.
And if Saddam dicks with England, you will plead with whom for help
again..?
--
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jane doe
"Winston" <gh8...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:an1v6j$t24$1...@paris.btinternet.com...
> PICTURING PEACE
> ---------------
>
> This weekend in London at the anti-war demo we are starting a video
petition
> against the proposed war against the Iraqi people.
>
>
> We aim to film people stating simply and clearly
> their name,
> where they live,
> and one short sentence about their opposition to the proposed military
> action in the Middle East.
>
> We shall collect these tapes and digitise all the footage.
> These clips will then be put up on a website, and hyperlinks sent to the
> public, the press and to politicians in the UK, the US, the Arab world and
> elsewhere.
>
> If you have a DV or miniDV camera and some time to spare then please help
us
> please help us out by recording as many people as you can with the help of
> the guidelines below.
>
> We're looking for people to come and film at Saturday afternoon's demo in
> London.
>
> We also want to hear from people around the UK and across the globe who
are
> willing to go down to their local shopping centre, school, youth club,
> college bar, skate park or golf club with a DV camera some time this week
or
> next and get as many people as possible to 'sign' the petition. Even if
you
> can only get yourself on tape then send it to us.
>
> Over the next few days we will be putting up a P.O box address for any
tapes
> to be sent to. If you include a stamped, self addressed envelope in with
> the tape, we will return it to you after digitising. We won't be keeping
> any record of addresses, and will not be handing this information on to
> anyone else.
>
> The more people on the petition, the stronger the message will be.
>
> We are going to follow the following guidelines so that the media that we
> compress for the Internet is of a good quality and can be labelled well.
>
> Recording Guide
> -----------------
> 1. Always shoot a Close Head & Shoulders shot of the subject talking
> straight to camera.
> 2. Keep background movement (all movement) to a minimum.
> 3. Choose the most simple backdrop available on any side.
> 4. Record approximately 5 seconds per person and ask them to state (in
this
> order):
>
> Their name. (Full name preferred, first name or nickname will do)
> The City, Town or Village they live in.
> A short, simple statement against the proposed war in the Middle East.
> (ideally no more than 15 words)
>
> 5. Ideally the subject will speak in English, as the this is the language
of
> the US and the UK, but we welcome contributions in any language.
> 6. While on camera ask the subject if it's OK to use this clip on a web
> site.
> 7. Make the best efforts you can to record a decent quality sound. A lapel
> mic or hand held mic will usually be better than an on camera mic.
> 8. On a sheet of A4 paper list the name & town of each of the people on
the
> petition in the order in which they appear on the tape and get them to
sign
> next to their name. Make sure the list is as legible as possible and
> include the list with your tape(s).
>
> Additional guidelines for filming children under 16
> ------------------------------------------------
> 1. Only ask children for their first name or nickname.
> 2. Get permission (written or on camera) from their parent or guardian
> _before_ filming.
> 3. If children come from a small town, village or borough ask them to
> re-record the clip using a more general location such as their county.
> eg. "Hi, I'm Dave from London" not "Hi, I'm David Smith from Peckham
> Rye".
>
>
> We will be publishing the PO box to send a DV tape to on this site over
the
> next week or so.
>
> We intend to have the site on-line within 10 days of Saturday's anti-war
> gathering.
>
> The 'signatures' we get on Saturday are just the beginning of this
petition.
> Once the site is up we publish details on it of how people can add their
> video clips.
>
> Thank you in advance if you can help us with this.
>
> The site will be located at : www.picturingpeace.net
>
> ------------------
>
> Please forward this email on to your friends, your enemies and people you
> don't even know.
> CC in your local MP, your local newspaper and your local TV news station.
> If you know people that don't speak English translate it if you can and
send
> it to them.
>
> gh8...@yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
VegasSmokes.com
head. Kill em all ... let Allah sort em out.
Dazed
"Larry Jandro" <use...@REMOVETHISljvideo.com> wrote in message
news:Xns929694D573...@68.6.19.6...
> On 27 Sep 2002, "Winston" <gh8...@yahoo.com> tapped on a keyboard
> and said:
>
> > PICTURING PEACE
> > ---------------
> >
> > This weekend in London at the anti-war demo we are starting a
> > video petition against the proposed war against the Iraqi
> > people.
>
> It's not against the Iraqui people, thickhead.
>
> And if Saddam dicks with England, you will plead with whom for help
> again..?
>
Its about controlling the oil in the Middle East. There is also nothing
quite like a war to help flagging economies.
D
Kjolemore
life offers.
KennJ
Larry Jandro
keyboard and said:
> Its not about Saddam either you thickhead.
>
> Its about controlling the oil in the Middle East. There is also
> nothing quite like a war to help flagging economies.
We already control Iraq's oil, you thickhead. We even control the
price Saddam gets for it, you thickhead.
Go back to sleep.
Dazed
"Larry Jandro" <use...@REMOVETHISljvideo.com> wrote in message
> On 28 Sep 2002, "Dazed" <That....@betelling.com> tapped on a
> keyboard and said:
>
> > Its not about Saddam either you thickhead.
> >
> > Its about controlling the oil in the Middle East. There is also
> > nothing quite like a war to help flagging economies.
>
> We already control Iraq's oil, you thickhead. We even control the
> price Saddam gets for it, you thickhead.
>
You really are an ignorant fuck!
Yes, I'll go back to bed but you might like to WAKE UP. You said in an
earlier post that the war was not on the Iraqi people but on Saddam. US
government estimates of collateral damage based on an all out war with Iraq
could reach 10,000 dead. That's over 3 times the number of innocent people
killed on 9/11 not to mention the collateral damage already caused in
Afghanistan with the so called war on terror.
So who is the world's greatest terrorist?
America wants a coalition to fight terrorism and every country must fall in
line but when America is continually requested to reduced greenhouse gas
emissions (the greatest threat to human life on this planet) it opts out of
agreement like Kyoto.
The fucking hypocrisy......
D
David McCall
"Dazed" <That....@betelling.com> wrote in message news:WGml9.1449$Fv2.104649@wards...
>
> You really are an ignorant fuck!
>
I've been reading his post for years, and he usually makes good sense AFIK.
> Yes, I'll go back to bed but you might like to WAKE UP. You said in an
> earlier post that the war was not on the Iraqi people but on Saddam. US
> government estimates of collateral damage based on an all out war with Iraq
> could reach 10,000 dead. That's over 3 times the number of innocent people
> killed on 9/11 not to mention the collateral damage already caused in
> Afghanistan with the so called war on terror.
>
When you say "the US estimates" who are you quoting? We have a
relatively free press in this country, and I've heard lots of numbers.
You should take most of them with a grain of salt, because they are a
ll political statements. The only really meaningful numbers are delivered
a year or two after the conflict.
Besides, war is not about "being fair". It is only about winning.
If you want to talk about collateral damage, then you should
talk to the leadership that chooses to mix their military resources
in with residential areas, and civilian businesses.
Do you actually believe that we shouldn't try to take out military targets,
just because they have been hidden in a neighborhood, or placed on
the roof of a hospital? Perhaps you haven't noticed that we make
every effort to build our facilities, here in the US and abroad, away
from civilan housing and commerse. Perhaps you also haven't noticed
that we spend a fortune on smard bombs and missels, in an effort to
limit collateral dammage. It would be a lot cheaper, and easier, to just
carpet bomb everything in sight.
The world trade towers were not milatary targets.
> So who is the world's greatest terrorist?
>
I can well imagine that people are terrified when the bombs
start dropping around them. Does that make us terrorist?
Perhaps? Perhaps you don't understand war as a concept.
It starts with a "first strike". In this case it was a group of Arab
Muslims slaming airplanes full of citizens into US buildings,
in the name of Alah. Some Muslims say that these people
don't represent them. Perhaps not, but in war, as in football,
you have to choose up sides. We have been crystal clear
about that.
There are two ways to end any war or battle; one side or
the other must either surrender or be defeated. We really
don't feel either is the right thing for us to do.
People used to talk about how noble it is to die for one's country.
WE don't feel that way anymore. We feel that it is far better if
the "other guy" does the dying for his country.
Tell you a secret. Being on the oposing side from the US is
a really bad idea when we get pissed, and believe me,
we are pissed.
> America wants a coalition to fight terrorism and every country must fall in
> line but when America is continually requested to reduced greenhouse gas
> emissions (the greatest threat to human life on this planet) it opts out of
> agreement like Kyoto.
>
I think you are leaving out a lot of details here. I suspect that our objections
were not based on a dsire to screw up the environment, but rather to the fact
that we were requested to pay the lion's share of the bill, with our hands
tied behind our back. I could be wrong. AFAIK we are making strides to
reduce the damage we are doing to the environment. Perhaps not fast
enough for some, but way faster than most. I don't think that is what his
war is about though.
> The fucking hypocrisy......
>
Plenty of that to go around. While oil is no doubt a factor, it is
clearly not the only factor. We have no particular desire to be
at war with anybody. We don't even like of defeating other
countries taking control of them. It has been our tradition to
step in and pick up most of the tab to rebuild a country after
we defeat it. At the same time we set up elections and try to
move the country into a more democratic government.
It's really a very expensive pain in the ass for us, which is
part of the reason we have been dragging our feet for so long.
At the same time "turning the other cheek" gets pretty old
after a while.
Larry Jandro
keyboard and said:
> America wants a coalition to fight terrorism and every country
> must fall in line but when America is continually requested to
> reduced greenhouse gas emissions (the greatest threat to human
> life on this planet) it opts out of agreement like Kyoto.
Kyoto is bunk, and is disclaimed by as many scientists as there are
supporting it. I believe that only a small handfull of nations have
actually SIGNED it, and one of them is some tiny Pacific Atoll. Get
your facts straight.
BTW - Europe is much more dependent on Arab oil than the USA. We get
less than 30 percent of our oil from that region. The largest
percentage of our "foreign" oil comes from Canada, and a great deal
more from Venezuela and the Far East.
"Dazed" is a perfect handle for you.
--
Larry Jandro - Remove spamtrap in ALLCAPS to e-mail
Are you a Sound/Video/Lighting/Staging Freelancer..?
jane doe
An appropriate handle, "Dazed"
>
US government estimates of collateral damage based on an all out war with
Iraq
> could reach 10,000 dead.
bullshit. NO US government estimates have ever been published. You're
hearing numbers from chickenshit liberals who quoted the same numbers in
1991. It was supposed to be 100,000 dead Americans. No one estimated 128.
> So who is the world's greatest terrorist?
At the moment its Bin Laden. Stupid.
>
> America wants a coalition to fight terrorism and every country must fall
in
> line but when America is continually requested to reduced greenhouse gas
> emissions (the greatest threat to human life on this planet) it opts out
of
> agreement like Kyoto.
You are emitting more greenhouse gas than anyone. Anyone who mentions
greenhouse gas in the same discussion as trrorism is either a professor, a
student or just an idiot.
>
> The fucking hypocrisy......
youre dazed and confused.
> D
>
>
>
>
HighPeaksVideo
>
>At the moment its Bin Laden. Stupid.
The really sad part is the executive order to let the 9/11 attacks happen.
Craig H.
.
"HighPeaksVideo" <highpea...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020928213721...@mb-cs.aol.com...
.
learn the fine points of brushing their teeth.
"Dazed" <That....@betelling.com> wrote in message
news:WGml9.1449$Fv2.104649@wards...
>
David McCall
"jane doe" <a@b.c> wrote in message news:eZrl9.127$wg2.28...@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...
>
> "Dazed" <That....@betelling.com> wrote in message
> news:WGml9.1449$Fv2.104649@wards...
>
> An appropriate handle, "Dazed"
>
>
> >
> US government estimates of collateral damage based on an all out war with
> Iraq
> > could reach 10,000 dead.
>
> bullshit. NO US government estimates have ever been published. You're
> hearing numbers from chickenshit liberals who quoted the same numbers in
> 1991. It was supposed to be 100,000 dead Americans. No one estimated 128.
>
it's not so much that they are chickenshit, as it is that an important election
comeing up, and they are low on ammo. It's interesting that they call the party
that wants to get a good war going "conservative", while the party that stresses
caution and a more "conservative approach, liberals. I don't believe I've ever
seen a liberal in public office in the US.
> > So who is the world's greatest terrorist?
>
> At the moment its Bin Laden. Stupid.
>
Well maybe, but we do have concerns about his health ;-)
Supreme Enchanter
terrorists and those who help them out. It's a juhid!
"Dazed" <That....@betelling.com> wrote in message
news:WGml9.1449$Fv2.104649@wards...
>
Jim Harvey
> 1. Always shoot a Close Head & Shoulders shot of the subject talking
> straight to camera.
I learned to always shoot two in the head and if time allowed, one to center
mass.
> 2. Keep background movement (all movement) to a minimum.
A ghillie suit works well for this.
> 3. Choose the most simple backdrop available on any side.
Burned out tanks make excellent cover.
> 4. Record approximately 5 seconds per person and ask them to state (in
this
> order):
>
> Their name. (Full name preferred, first name or nickname will do)
> The City, Town or Village they live in.
> A short, simple statement against the proposed war in the Middle East.
> (ideally no more than 15 words)
Only used for POW's (Name Rank SN)
>
> 5. Ideally the subject will speak in English, as the this is the language
of
> the US and the UK, but we welcome contributions in any language.
Our interrogators will breach any language barrier.
> 6. While on camera ask the subject if it's OK to use this clip on a web
> site.
Do you mean take his clip FROM his web belt?
> 7. Make the best efforts you can to record a decent quality sound.
Sionics handles sound issues most effectively.
> 8. On a sheet of A4 paper list the name & town of each of the people on
the
> petition in the order in which they appear on the tape and get them to
sign
> next to their name.
Too time consuming, rear echelon personnel can handle this task.
Jim Harvey
JHV Digital
Jim Harvey
have their say.
Of course, that's usually lost on them, but ah well.....
Jim Harvey
JHV Digital
Kjolemore <kjol...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020928064157...@mb-ce.aol.com...
Jim Harvey
Jim Harvey
JHV Digital
Dazed <That....@betelling.com> wrote in message
news:WGml9.1449$Fv2.104649@wards...
>
HighPeaksVideo
on _lcada people. Saw it on a public access show. Don't really think I even
want to go looking for it on the net. Makes sick sense. So sad.
Show also talked about how deep the _ush family is in business with that
black sheep's family. _ilitary contracts around the world.
Larry Jandro
a keyboard and said:
Yeah, now there are some solid cites we can rely on.
BTW - what's your take on who really killed JR..?
Dazed
"Supreme Enchanter" <SupremeE...@GetALife.com> wrote in message
news:GMtl9.4950$IO5.1...@e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com...
> We all want saddam out you little arab piece of shit. Death to all
> terrorists and those who help them out. It's a juhid!
>
>
Dazed
"David McCall" <david...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:oAnl9.483237$_91.7...@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net...
>
> "Dazed" <That....@betelling.com> wrote in message
news:WGml9.1449$Fv2.104649@wards...
> >
> > You really are an ignorant fuck!
> >
> I think that is an inappropriate discription of Larry.
> I've been reading his post for years, and he usually makes good sense
AFIK.
>
> > Yes, I'll go back to bed but you might like to WAKE UP. You said in an
> > earlier post that the war was not on the Iraqi people but on Saddam. US
> > government estimates of collateral damage based on an all out war with
Iraq
> > could reach 10,000 dead. That's over 3 times the number of innocent
people
> > killed on 9/11 not to mention the collateral damage already caused in
> > Afghanistan with the so called war on terror.
> >
> When you say "the US estimates" who are you quoting? We have a
> relatively free press in this country, and I've heard lots of numbers.
> You should take most of them with a grain of salt, because they are a
> ll political statements. The only really meaningful numbers are delivered
> a year or two after the conflict.
>
Pentagon figures released post Gulf War.
> Besides, war is not about "being fair". It is only about winning.
> If you want to talk about collateral damage, then you should
> talk to the leadership that chooses to mix their military resources
> in with residential areas, and civilian businesses.
>
> Do you actually believe that we shouldn't try to take out military
targets,
> just because they have been hidden in a neighborhood, or placed on
> the roof of a hospital? Perhaps you haven't noticed that we make
> every effort to build our facilities, here in the US and abroad, away
> from civilan housing and commerse. Perhaps you also haven't noticed
> that we spend a fortune on smard bombs and missels, in an effort to
> limit collateral dammage. It would be a lot cheaper, and easier, to just
> carpet bomb everything in sight.
America knows much about carpet bombing, Loas & Vietnam immediately spring
to mind. People are still living in the misery caused by these munitions
and chemical weapons. No US commitment to clear up these countries. Silly
me, no oil!
>
> The world trade towers were not milatary targets.
>
>
> People used to talk about how noble it is to die for one's country.
> WE don't feel that way anymore. We feel that it is far better if
> the "other guy" does the dying for his country.
>
This is a good point you make. America really can't cope when its
all-american boys die in a conflict.
> Tell you a secret. Being on the oposing side from the US is
> a really bad idea when we get pissed, and believe me,
> we are pissed.
>
> > America wants a coalition to fight terrorism and every country must fall
in
> > line but when America is continually requested to reduced greenhouse gas
> > emissions (the greatest threat to human life on this planet) it opts out
of
> > agreement like Kyoto.
> >
> I think you are leaving out a lot of details here. I suspect that our
objections
> were not based on a dsire to screw up the environment, but rather to the
fact
> that we were requested to pay the lion's share of the bill, with our hands
> tied behind our back. I could be wrong. AFAIK we are making strides to
> reduce the damage we are doing to the environment. Perhaps not fast
> enough for some, but way faster than most. I don't think that is what his
> war is about though.
The reason the US would be asked to pay the lions share is because the US
generates the lion's share of the pollution....fact.. The US is not doing
anything re global warming and would choose to buy other countries pollution
quotas instead.
>
> > The fucking hypocrisy......
> >
> Plenty of that to go around. While oil is no doubt a factor, it is
> clearly not the only factor. We have no particular desire to be
> at war with anybody. We don't even like of defeating other
> countries taking control of them. It has been our tradition to
> step in and pick up most of the tab to rebuild a country after
> we defeat it. At the same time we set up elections and try to
> move the country into a more democratic government.
>
This is utter non-sense. America has not committed to the long term aid
payments required to rebuild Afghanistan. Afghanistan is once again falling
into lawlessness as much of the UN controlled areas are falling to warring
factions. US stalling again, this was exactly the same mistake that
certainly helped Afghanistan decend into lawlessness when the Russians were
booted out. Funding the Taliban was fine when they were fighting the "Evil
Empire" but no long term commitement to a democratic process because it does
cost a shit load of aid dollars to do this. Not too dissimilar to when
Vietnam invaded Cambodia to stop the genocide of the Cambodian people under
the regime of Pol Pot. America actually funded the Khmer Rouge, a communist
and terrorist organisation which overthrew a soveriegn government. Someone
explain that logic to me please. It couldn't be so simple as America being
pissed that it had its ass kicked out of Vietnam and wanted a bit of payback
America with all its considerable might could not carpet bomb the Vietnamese
into submission nor could they shoot the Somalians into submission so what
of the Iraqi people. Let us all hope that when war does come to that region
that the Iraqi people are so anti-Saddam, as we have been told, that they
don't put up a fight and its all over very very quickly.
I am not Anti-American as Larry Jandro has stated I just have a different
view of to that of Bush and his cronies. I am pro UN multilateralism not
imperialistic unilateralism.
I am European not an Arab but know Arabs, Persians, and Asians that I am
proud to call my friends.
D
David McCall
"Dazed" <That....@betelling.com> wrote in message news:XuAl9.1510$Fv2.119140@wards...
>
> America knows much about carpet bombing, Loas & Vietnam immediately spring
> to mind. People are still living in the misery caused by these munitions
> and chemical weapons. No US commitment to clear up these countries. Silly
> me, no oil!
>
that enters into it, but there were other factors. Like the spread
of communism, You want to talk about Imperialism?
No surrender, no commitment. That's pretty simple don't you think?
Carpet bombing and soldiers on the ground was about all
we had available to use over there.
I was in the Vietnam conflict (Armed Fources Radio and
Television Service). It was sad for the Vietnamese folks.
They were caught in the middle of super powers having
at it. It would have been better for them if we had just let
the communist take the whole thing. They sure wouldn't
have had much trouble overtaking the Vietnamese army.
Just for the record; we weren't the only people commiting
atrocities over there. There was a lot of really bad stuff done
by the folks from the north too.
I agree. War sucks. You got some better ideas?
David
jane doe
>I don't believe I've ever
> seen a liberal in public office in the US.
right.. just look at the Black Caucus. ... never seen a liberal in office..
wacked.
jane doe
David McCall
"jane doe" <a@b.c> wrote in message news:7wDl9.179$at6.40...@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...
David
r.crowley
> ignore these pissants Winston, stand up for your
Thats right, Winston. Stand up for the rights of those tyrant governments to
deny THEIR citizens from standing up for their convictions. But this
argument is likely lost on you and Kjolemore. Have you ever been to one of
thse countries?
Larry Jandro
keyboard and said:
> Just for the record; we weren't the only people commiting
> atrocities over there. There was a lot of really bad stuff done
> by the folks from the north too.
Everyone seems to have forgotten that the French started the whole
mess. They limped away, leaving the cleanup (and blame) on the US.
--
Larry Jandro - Remove spamtrap in ALLCAPS to e-mail
Are you a Sound/Video/Lighting/Staging Freelancer..?
David McCall
"Larry Jandro" <use...@REMOVETHISljvideo.com> wrote in message news:Xns9298549BEA...@68.6.19.6...
> On 29 Sep 2002, "David McCall" <david...@attbi.com> tapped on a
> keyboard and said:
>
> > Just for the record; we weren't the only people commiting
> > atrocities over there. There was a lot of really bad stuff done
> > by the folks from the north too.
>
> Everyone seems to have forgotten that the French started the whole
> mess. They limped away, leaving the cleanup (and blame) on the US.
>
I thought went back even further that that.
We, and everybody else involved with that war on both sides,
did a lot that was less than honorable. Unfortunately that
seems to be the nature of war (and big business, for that matter)
David
Moving Vision
<david...@attbi.com> writes
My daddy said to me just before I made my first visit to the US. "Son,
just remember that in America any one to the left of Gengis Khan is
considered to be a communist"
--
John Lubran
Larry Jandro
keyboard and said:
> My daddy said to me just before I made my first visit to the US.
> "Son, just remember that in America any one to the left of
> Gengis Khan is considered to be a communist"
So, do you still believe this, or have you finally realized that your
daddy was talking through his hat..?
--
Larry Jandro - Remove spamtrap in ALLCAPS to e-mail
Are you a Sound/Video/Lighting/Staging Freelancer..?
Gary Pollard
> On 30 Sep 2002, Moving Vision <m...@movingvision.co.uk> tapped on a
> keyboard and said:
>
> > My daddy said to me just before I made my first visit to the US.
> > "Son, just remember that in America any one to the left of
> > Gengis Khan is considered to be a communist"
>
> So, do you still believe this, or have you finally realized that your
> daddy was talking through his hat..?
I'd say Usenet gives him every reason to still believe this.
Gary
Doug Dulmage
>On 30 Sep 2002, Moving Vision <m...@movingvision.co.uk> tapped on a
>keyboard and said:
>
>> My daddy said to me just before I made my first visit to the US.
>> "Son, just remember that in America any one to the left of
>> Gengis Khan is considered to be a communist"
>
>So, do you still believe this, or have you finally realized that your
>daddy was talking through his hat..?
>
While this is not true for the most part, if you lived anywhere overseas for
any amount of time, you'd find this to be a fairly popular opinion of the U.S.
in general. I don't think a video forum is the right place to discuss politics
as this is a topic that no one can win on, and everyone will walk away from
it making more enemies than friends.
As for being a person from the US going overseas, there is a lot to be
said of our behavior in other cultures where we regularly insult other people
without even realising it and instead of apologizing, we tend to laugh it off
and ignore the bad move. That's one of the reasons that I was given so many
overseas assignments in my travelling days, I'm a Canadian that travels on a
Canadian passport and could get visa's into places like the then communinst
Czechoslovakia and Lebanon and Syria where otherwise an American would
have been at great risk. Nonetheless, I have my green card, pay taxes, have
helped the US Govt. abroad when asked, so I had the best of both worlds,
being allowed entry into places where US Citizen's aren't welcome, and yet
being able to come home to the US. And it's easy to say that we don't care
what these countries think about us, but on the other hand, when
Czechoslovakia split and became the Czech Republic and renounced Communism,
it was because their citizen's had become so convinced that the US was the
great model for democracy, and for the first 4-5 years of post communism, all
was going well there and American's were treated like royalty when they went
to visit. Now that American business's have gone over there and basically
looted the country of most of it's asset's when the govt. privatized them, and
closed down a lot of old cultural practices in exchange for building a K-Mart
in Prague (just saying that to anyone that has every been there almost
sounds like a punchline to a joke), it's not hard to understand how we are
resented in a lot of countries. Even friendly countries like S. Korea are very
wary of our influence on their culture, when I lived their for a year in 93,
I remember them banning Michael Jackson from performing, and there was nearly
a report in the papers daily where a group of young Korean men would beat up
any American found on the streets holding hands with a Korean girl, and
unfortunately, this even happened to a co-worker of mine, even though the
two were even married. Even Canada to a certain extent looks at us to a
certain extent as a bit of a bunch of thugs. If you were to grow up watching
the CBC and then suddenly had Fox and re-runs of "Cops" played endlessly,
it's not hard to understand the culture shock.. Like most other countries,
their total deaths from gunshot wounds yearly is less than the US's deaths
in one or two weeks. I'm not anti-gun by any means, own a few myself and
believe we have the right to protect ourselves, but the rest of the world for
the most part doesn't allow it's citizens the right's to own pistols, etc.
In fact, I was even arrested at Heathrow for having a can of mace in my tool
case. They graciously let me go after having me sign a confession, but there
was an admitted bit of attitude in the arresting officers voice as he somewhat
apologized to me for holding me up while just changing planes and said to me
"I understand that in the US that this is fairly standard for people to
require for personal protection, but in the United Kingdom it is a great risk
for our police to allow these items to exist on our street's" And then he
offered me a cuppa tea or coffee while they waited for the constable to bring
up my confession to sign, and held my plane until they were done. So,
considering the amount of football hooligans and the trouble they have caused
in the UK, again it's a head scratcher as to why we appear to be so dangerous,
and I truly believe that it's the image that the media in the US paints of us
that scares them so badly, and it's not foreign media, but channels like
CNN International that is watched by so many world travellers and business
people. Every country I've ever been in carries that channel in the hotels,
etc., the coverage is astounding, and I'm sure it must have some impact.
Why we deserve this when we've dumped so many trillions into third
world countries to keep them from starving is a question I can't answer. At
the Govt. level of foreign countries we are still loved, but the population
doesn't always carry the government line, even if the food they're eating has
been paid for with US dollars.
It's a confusing world out there, I can guarantee anyone raised in the
US and to have never travelled to the middle east, that person has NO chance
of ever understanding why things are the way they are there as they have never
lived in a Tribal culture, which is what it is, except for Israel, whom I had
been blackballed from, ironically for having working for the govt. of Kuwait,
yet Kuwait is the only Arab country that will grant Israeli citizen's visa's.
Where is the logic in that?
Oh well, enough world politics, I don't think it's something to fight
over in here, leave it for the political newsgroups and stick to video as it's
a question that has no corrrect answer to it. The tiger chasing it's tail,
or over here, Like Ass(&9$'s, everyone has one...
Just my $.02
Doug
David McCall
"Doug Dulmage" <dul...@visi.com> wrote in message news:6vim9.1513$w7.29...@ruti.visi.com...
>
> Oh well, enough world politics, I don't think it's something to fight
> over in here, leave it for the political newsgroups and stick to video as it's
> a question that has no corrrect answer to it. The tiger chasing it's tail,
> or over here, Like Ass(&9$'s, everyone has one...
>
I enjoyed seeing your opinion, and the opinion of others in our group.
It just isn't the same as going to a political group full of strangers.
It is sad that we have such a bad rep around the world. We do have
plenty of faults, but we spend a lot of resources, and energy, for the
good of others. I know, it's never enough, unless we give them everything
and go back to thatched huts and donkeys. Perhaps that wouldn't even
make them happy. It's the old battle between the "haves" and the "have nots".
Sure, we have a lot of crime (too much), but it looks a lot more scary in
the media, than it really is. Not only are we a huge country with many
people, but we also have an extensive press that thrives on every bit of
bad news it can find, then they spread it around the world. People don't
put it together that we have states that are bigger than most countries,
so obviously, we are going to have more problems than a smaller country.
Do we have more crime in Wisconsin than they have in Italy? Probably
not, but when you put all 50 states all together, it's a different story.
I'm very biased. I still think America is great, but far from perfect.
I have no desire to live anywhere else.
David
Doug Dulmage
>
>"Doug Dulmage" <dul...@visi.com> wrote in message
> news:6vim9.1513$w7.29...@ruti.visi.com...
>>
>> Oh well, enough world politics, I don't think it's something to fight
>> over in here, leave it for the political newsgroups and stick to video as
> it's
>> a question that has no corrrect answer to it. The tiger chasing it's tail,
>> or over here, Like Ass(&9$'s, everyone has one...
>>
>You are right. This isn't the place for political discussion, but
>I enjoyed seeing your opinion, and the opinion of others in our group.
>It just isn't the same as going to a political group full of strangers.
Snip some very good observations...
>Do we have more crime in Wisconsin than they have in Italy? Probably
>not, but when you put all 50 states all together, it's a different story.
Hmmm, I grew up ( well, actually age 12-18 in Superior WI) and lived in
Pescheria, Italy (halfway between Venice and Milan, near Verona),
and I'd have to say it's probably a draw.... For the cost of a shot of grappa
in Italy, you can get a shot of hot ginger brandy, shot of Everclear, and a
16oz. tap beer and you only have to be tall enough to reach the bar in WI.
I got into a heck of lot more trouble in Superior at the age of 15 than I ever
did in Italy, and we used to call the Twin Ports of Duluth/Superior
"Twin Peaks" as it was weirder and funkier than David Lynch's televised
nightmare's..
>I'm very biased. I still think America is great, but far from perfect.
>I have no desire to live anywhere else.
I wholeheartedly agree, although I do have a soft spot for Vancouver
Island where my kids were born and I lived for quite a while until work
dried up..
Well, I think every young person of college age should be given some
chance to at least spend a year going around the world doing some kind
of work, whether in the military, or in some kind of service group.
It not only gives you the perspective of what's really going on
without the filter of the media, but it gives you a better appreciation of the
US, and also realize that as a country, we have only been here a very short
time compared to the rest of the world. Until you've watched Aida in a Roman
Coliseum that was built in 900, or taken a trip out to the pyramids and have
the taxi driver put it into the perspective that these monuments that can be
seen from 20 miles away were being visited by tourists such as yourself 4000
years ago when they were still considered ancient, it kind of gives you an
idea of how long man has been around. As many a comedian has pointed out,
"Why we have buildings in California that are more than 50 years old,
really!!"
I still always feel that big sigh of relief after getting off a plane
after being away for 3-12 months at a stretch, but I've also made a lof of
friends in places that only seem like a dream now, and that's hard to replace
and I have the same kind of appreciation for some of these folks that have
aspired to greatness without the benefits that we have of the quality of life
here in the US, and again, I think the US as a whole would be a lot better off
if folks had first hand experience on the ground, and not just in resort towns
in Mexico and the Bahama's (although a couple of weeks in Mexicali can be
and eye opener..)
Doug
>David
>
>
>
>
Moving Vision
Just for the record
In terms of third world aid the USA is the worlds biggest donor but only
if you count the 15 small countries of the EC as single countries. In
terms of selfless generosity the USA gives just 0.16 percent of GDP. All
the EC countries give at least 0.3 per cent with Denmark being the
worlds most generous state with a donation of a whole one per cent.
Remember the parable of the 'Widows mite'
Source; The Economist World Statistics 2000-2001
In terms of crime and violence I'd dread to think of the British having
free and easy access to guns. I've travelled widely in the US and the
British criminal and fighting classes are a lot scarier, and that's
without weapons!.
Its a great big world out there folks, getting on for 6,000,000,000
people in almost 200 independent countries. Its a great mistake to
generalise. In terms of exploitable natural assets per head of
population the USA is the luckiest by far. The fact is though that
statistics reveal that the new and slightly indefinable United States of
Europe is already generating a GDP almost 25% greater than the US, has
over 50 million more people and on a scale of standard ratios has the
most coldly efficient propensity for high tech violence on the planet.
The last thing the world needs is for this unprecedented union to
achieve the economies and efficiency of scale indicated for such a
potential by the US example. Europe is a sleeping and rather reluctant
giant right now but if the US continues to act like an irresponsible
school yard bully the pressure will mount for Europe to give up the
luxury of letting the US have all the guns on the grounds of no longer
trusting the US to be the only super power. The US needs to be respected
in the school yard for being a fair, measured and even handed protector.
Unprecedentedly, since W.W.II, the Europeans are starting to invest in
things like aircraft carriers, very advanced war planes like the Typhoon
and the Grippen (at least equal to the F22 Raptor and already in full
production), military space technology and an increasing interest in
forming a pan European military machine. These guys are seriously bad
butt kickers and size for size can lick all comers. Is this really what
the world needs? The era of the Soviet super power did at least have a
straightening effect on war mongering. Take the deadly efficiency of the
SAS or the Royal Air Force, who have won every NATO Top Gun games ever,
( no prizes for guessing that these facts are never discussed or
reported in the US media) or that other reluctant and dozing world
frightening machine, otherwise rather reminiscently know as the Wermacht
and Luftwafa and magnify all these by one hundred times whilst removing
all the ancient counter opposing forces that usually kept them in some
sort of moderation (shit can we call that moderation) and that's where
these dangerous games must eventually lead to.
--
John Lubran
John S. Dyson
"Moving Vision" <m...@movingvision.co.uk> wrote in message news:o8zGyBQH...@movingvision.demon.co.uk...
>
> very advanced war planes like the Typhoon
> and the Grippen (at least equal to the F22 Raptor and already in full
> production),
>
the big advantages (AFAIR) was the long supersonic cruise. Integrated
systems are also more important than the power of any one device.
John
Dazed
Mike Kujbida
> I'm a Canadian
That explains a lot of things:-) No wonder you live where you do. You must
be a snow lover (said with a big grin as I'm a northern Lake Superior
transplant myself).
BTW, (as I'm sure you know), mace is a prohibited weapon here in Canada.
Not only would the cops have taken it away from you on the spot, you might
have been charged with possession (a criminal code offence).
Mike Kujbida
Doug Dulmage
>"Doug Dulmage" <dul...@visi.com> wrote
>> I'm a Canadian
>
>That explains a lot of things:-) No wonder you live where you do. You must
>be a snow lover (said with a big grin as I'm a northern Lake Superior
>transplant myself).
Well, I don't think love ever comes into question, it's more a matter of
tolerance... It's a pretty amazing shift just to move down to Mpls. by
getting away from those lake winds, that's what really kills you up there.
Cold is cold, but adding that extra 35mph wind off the lake makes that
windchill something to worry about. I remember the poor guy that lived
down the block from me that was a microwave maintenance guy for the
railroad. From about Jan. 15 until maybe the beggining of March he'd leave
his car running 24/7 in the driveway so that he could take his emergency
calls. And at that time I had a used 26 ft. Ryder full of sound and lighting
gear in my parents driveway, we'd take that thing up to hellholes like
Kenora and Intl. Falls in Feb. and I had a battery heater, dipstick heater,
upper and lower radiator hose heaters, a NASA space blanket to throw over
the engine if it was parked for more than a day, and the oddest thing, a
barbecue with the legs sawed off. If we were in a club from Wed. to Sat.,
we'd have to go out Friday morning and build the barbecue and getting it
going under the oil pan full of straight 5 weight, and if we were lucky, by
Sat. night we could start the thing. And we even had two regular truck
batteries with this Frankensteinish arrangement of knife switches so I could
change them from par. to series so I could get 24 volts into the starter if
needed.
And even more fun was getting to the gig's as I had two Yamaha
PM1000's for the mains, and a pair of PM700's for monitors, and the grease
on the slider rods would be so frozen that we had to open up the boards
and run a heat shrink gun over them to loosen them up, same for the drive
oil in the Hammond B3 that we were lugging around. Ah, the good old days.
I do remember working a show in Superior (I moonlighted for Harvey
VanHorn as a stage manager/grunt/driver/ when he'd do a concert in Duluth,
and this one was Little Richard (who is one of the biggest darn guys I have
ever seen) opening for Johnny Winters, and I remember Showco rolling out this
huge white Anvil case for Johnny's dressing room and it had a bunch of outlets
on it. Inside was was one of the best collections of flying V's, Firebirds,
SG's, etc. and they had the whole Anvil case heated with a dehumidifer in it
too. They'd roll it into the truck and had a big 12 volt jumper for it, then
another hookup for plugging it in the dressing room. I guess there were
probably about $100k in guitars in there, guess I'd do the same thing...
>BTW, (as I'm sure you know), mace is a prohibited weapon here in Canada.
>Not only would the cops have taken it away from you on the spot, you might
>have been charged with possession (a criminal code offence).
Well, I moved my parents from Superior up to Vancouver Island when they
retired in about '79, got up there and stayed for a few months with no work,
etc. and got snagged up by the only union sound company on the island,
and there were four of us on the crew, two of them owners and the one, a
Journeymen. They sold the biz and left it for me to run for the new owner
and I was just an apprentice with IBEW, but they had to have a Journeyman
so I had an apprenticeship that only lasted two months and then became their
only Journeyman, so life was pretty good, plus I got back into IATSE and
NABET, so I ran a portable sat truck for the ANIK up there for coverage on the
island, and I'd have to go up to place's like Cambell river, or even on the
mainland up to Terrace and Smithers and both bears and cougars were
a regular thing to have to worry about in some of these locations, so I kept
my pistol around if I was out on my own in the middle of nowhere, and never
had any use for mace up there and didn't have any. I did have a permit for the
pistol though as being a union shop that also handled contracts for the
Ministry of Comm, plus the RCMP, they got me the permit as I would do
a circuit of going around to all their relay stations that were just a shed
and some transmitters located in the bush, and I'd often find myself sleeping
in my truck surrounded by maybe 200 Inuits who I couldn't understand and
they really didn't like the idea of the RCMP having a relay on their turf...
But as they say, "the money was good".. Plus it was a cheap way to
have kids. I laugh when I hear folks down here badmouthing Canadian health
so bad, but given that both mine were born C-section, and the bills for each
were about $19k CDN, I could have never afforded to have them down in the
States as paying med insurance rates for self employed is a real bank buster
down here. I think we went for almost 6 years down here were I was making
just a hair under 6 figures, yet I still couldn't afford health insurance,
mainly because my wife was still a "childbirth risk", $300 something a month
just for her, let alone me and the kids, and I had to work over in Beiruit, I
wasn't about to go their without insurance and medevac coverage, etc.
Fortunately, I had the upper hand and could make my contractors put up the
$$ for those assignments.
So, seeing that I don't see shaw.ca in your email, where about are you
up there? Must be maybe Toronto? Like the state of working up there these
days? I'm seriously thinking of moving back to B.C. in maybe 4-5 years,
would be interested in your opinion of things..
Thanks!
Doug
Moving Vision
<dy...@iquest.net> writes
Europe has produced three new aircraft in the contemporary air
superiority class. The first and the least effective is Frances Dassault
Rafael, nevertheless it is superior to aircraft such as the older
generation MIG 29 and F15 Eagle and its already in service with both the
French air force and with the French navy for their two new nuclear
powered aircraft carriers.
In some ways the beautiful looking Swedish Saab Grippen is one of the
most remarkable technical achievements of the age. The Swedes produced
the incredible Grippen totally 'in-house'. I mean Sweden is a tiny
country, about 8,000,000 population if I remember rightly with a GDP of
just a fraction of the USA. Yet the Grippen is proving to be even better
than the experts predicted. It does not have supersonic cruise as the
Swedes are strictly into defence only so don't need to go that far. In
terms of fighting ability though it performs with the best and is
equipped with avionics that allow multiple simultaneous targeting and
counter measures that only actual combat will disprove it as being the
best in the world. Its not always down to money, genius is often
cheaper!
The aircraft that has really pushed the boundaries though is the Typhoon
or Eurofighter as it was originally known. A joint project between
Britain, Germany, Italy and Spain. The Typhoon has just entered
production and already been upgraded by the Royal Air Forces strictly
objective tactical weapons assessment unit from world No.2 after F22
Raptor to No.1. Only thing it lacks is vertical take off and landing.
Britain plans to develop a naval version for deployment on its new,
still under construction nuclear powered aircraft carrier.
By 2004 Europe will have three nuclear powered carriers, two oil fuel
conventional take off carriers, five VTOL Harrier carriers and a number
of helicopter carriers. This represents a profound change in Europe's
attitude to defence spending, in as much as they used to hate spending
anything at all. America was seen as an agreeable 'policeman' and great
value for money i.e. free. So what's changed their minds do you think?
--
John Lubran
John Cook
> superiority class. The first and the least effective is Frances Dassault
> Rafael, nevertheless it is superior to aircraft such as the older
> generation MIG 29 and F15 Eagle and its already in service with both the
> French air force and with the French navy for their two new nuclear
> powered aircraft carriers.
The Rafale is an extremly good aircraft, IMHO it ranks No3!!! after
the F-22 and Typhoon.
> In some ways the beautiful looking Swedish Saab Grippen is one of the
> most remarkable technical achievements of the age. The Swedes produced
> the incredible Grippen totally 'in-house'.
The Gripen is good but its quite small, it should be able to hold its
own against all current fighters, at much lower maintenance cost.
>
> The aircraft that has really pushed the boundaries though is the Typhoon
> or Eurofighter as it was originally known. A joint project between
> Britain, Germany, Italy and Spain. The Typhoon has just entered
> production and already been upgraded by the Royal Air Forces strictly
> objective tactical weapons assessment unit from world No.2 after F22
> Raptor to No.1.
This is news to me, can you cite a reference or link for this
surprising claim.
>Only thing it lacks is vertical take off and landing.
> Britain plans to develop a naval version for deployment on its new,
> still under construction nuclear powered aircraft carrier.
The UK had preliminary plans to navalise the typhoon, they also had in
mind buying 70 odd Rafales for the carriers and selling 70 odd
Typhoons to france!!. both of these opions were quickly dropped. The
JSF STOVL is the UK choice, and only Cancellation can change it.
> By 2004 Europe will have three nuclear powered carriers, two oil fuel
> conventional take off carriers, five VTOL Harrier carriers and a number
> of helicopter carriers. This represents a profound change in Europe's
> attitude to defence spending, in as much as they used to hate spending
> anything at all. America was seen as an agreeable 'policeman' and great
> value for money i.e. free. So what's changed their minds do you think?
Cheers
John Cook
Typhoon website:- http://www.eurofighter-typhoon.co.uk
Moving Vision
<jwc...@ozemail.com.au> writes
>Moving Vision <m...@movingvision.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:<BehsaZMM...@movingvision.demon.co.uk>...
>> In article <Byom9.952$Cz2.1...@news.iquest.net>, John S. Dyson
>> <dy...@iquest.net> writes
>>
>> Europe has produced three new aircraft in the contemporary air
>> superiority class. The first and the least effective is Frances Dassault
>> Rafael, nevertheless it is superior to aircraft such as the older
>> generation MIG 29 and F15 Eagle and its already in service with both the
>> French air force and with the French navy for their two new nuclear
>> powered aircraft carriers.
>
>The Rafale is an extremly good aircraft, IMHO it ranks No3!!! after
>the F-22 and Typhoon.
I guess it will take combat to prove this. From what I have learned the
Rafael is considered to have painted itself into a a bit of a
development corner. Not exactly sure what this means but its a term
that's been used since the 30's for such limitations in aircraft
design.
>
>
>> In some ways the beautiful looking Swedish Saab Grippen is one of the
>> most remarkable technical achievements of the age. The Swedes produced
>> the incredible Grippen totally 'in-house'.
>
>The Gripen is good but its quite small, it should be able to hold its
>own against all current fighters, at much lower maintenance cost.
According to a recent test flight of the Grippen by an RAF pilot the
Grippen is an absolute gem which within the limits of its operational
window ie local defence, has a strong claim to be the most dangerous
adversary another fighter pilot might encounter.
>
>>
>> The aircraft that has really pushed the boundaries though is the Typhoon
>> or Eurofighter as it was originally known. A joint project between
>> Britain, Germany, Italy and Spain. The Typhoon has just entered
>> production and already been upgraded by the Royal Air Forces strictly
>> objective tactical weapons assessment unit from world No.2 after F22
>> Raptor to No.1.
>
>This is news to me, can you cite a reference or link for this
>surprising claim.
Just a Squadron Leader, admittedly involved in RAF PR, who a year ago
informed the press that the Typhoon was considered to be No.2 and this
year has said it is now considered to be N0.1.
>
>>Only thing it lacks is vertical take off and landing.
>> Britain plans to develop a naval version for deployment on its new,
>> still under construction nuclear powered aircraft carrier.
>
>The UK had preliminary plans to navalise the typhoon, they also had in
>mind buying 70 odd Rafales for the carriers and selling 70 odd
>Typhoons to france!!. both of these opions were quickly dropped. The
>JSF STOVL is the UK choice, and only Cancellation can change it.
The JSF may only be a replacement for the Harrier? Britain has three
light 20,000 plus ton STOVL carriers currently operating the Sea
Harrier. It was announced that no new Sea Harriers are to built and that
the Royal Navy will be using normal Harriers as temporary replacements
if needed. The new conventional take off aircraft carrier being built
will need air superiority aircraft. However this may have changed since
I last checked this out.
>
>> By 2004 Europe will have three nuclear powered carriers, two oil fuel
>> conventional take off carriers, five VTOL Harrier carriers and a number
>> of helicopter carriers. This represents a profound change in Europe's
>> attitude to defence spending, in as much as they used to hate spending
>> anything at all. America was seen as an agreeable 'policeman' and great
>> value for money i.e. free. So what's changed their minds do you think?
>
>Cheers
>
>John Cook
>
>Typhoon website:- http://www.eurofighter-typhoon.co.uk
--
John Lubran
John S. Dyson
"Moving Vision" <m...@movingvision.co.uk> wrote in message news:BehsaZMM...@movingvision.demon.co.uk...
> In article <Byom9.952$Cz2.1...@news.iquest.net>, John S. Dyson
> <dy...@iquest.net> writes
> >
> >"Moving Vision" <m...@movingvision.co.uk> wrote in message
> >news:o8zGyBQH...@movingvision.demon.co.uk...
> >>
> >> very advanced war planes like the Typhoon
> >> and the Grippen (at least equal to the F22 Raptor and already in full
> >> production),
> >>
> >Even the very long cruise distances of the F22 stuff? That was one of
> >the big advantages (AFAIR) was the long supersonic cruise. Integrated
> >systems are also more important than the power of any one device.
> >
> >John
>
> Europe has produced three new aircraft in the contemporary air
> superiority class. The first and the least effective is Frances Dassault
> Rafael, nevertheless it is superior to aircraft such as the older
> generation MIG 29 and F15 Eagle and its already in service with both the
> French air force and with the French navy for their two new nuclear
> powered aircraft carriers.
>
integration can blow away slightly bigger bangs.
John
John S. Dyson
"Moving Vision" <m...@movingvision.co.uk> wrote in message news:hOrk+$BiSHn...@movingvision.demon.co.uk...
> In article <cbc1c949.02100...@posting.google.com>, John Cook
> <jwc...@ozemail.com.au> writes
> >Moving Vision <m...@movingvision.co.uk> wrote in message
> >news:<BehsaZMM...@movingvision.demon.co.uk>...
> >> In article <Byom9.952$Cz2.1...@news.iquest.net>, John S. Dyson
> >> <dy...@iquest.net> writes
> >>
> >> Europe has produced three new aircraft in the contemporary air
> >> superiority class. The first and the least effective is Frances Dassault
> >> Rafael, nevertheless it is superior to aircraft such as the older
> >> generation MIG 29 and F15 Eagle and its already in service with both the
> >> French air force and with the French navy for their two new nuclear
> >> powered aircraft carriers.
> >
> >The Rafale is an extremly good aircraft, IMHO it ranks No3!!! after
> >the F-22 and Typhoon.
>
> I guess it will take combat to prove this. From what I have learned the
> Rafael is considered to have painted itself into a a bit of a
> development corner. Not exactly sure what this means but its a term
> that's been used since the 30's for such limitations in aircraft
> design.
>
nearly as often is quite important WRT superiority... Alot of weapons tend
to set on the shelf, and without good integration, the Iraqi airforce
comes to mind.
John
Moving Vision
>The ability to enter a region at supersonic without having to refuel
>nearly as often is quite important WRT superiority... Alot of weapons tend
>to set on the shelf, and without good integration, the Iraqi airforce
>comes to mind.
>
>John
Almost everyone in the advanced tech countries seems to have reached the
same conclusions. All the leading aircraft projects we've been talking
about provide for the critical degree of power to weight ratios that
allow fly by wire unstable air frames to be thrown about at all
altitudes in such a way that is only limited by the pilots ability to
withstand the dynamics. Next comes the issue of weapon systems and
avionics. The criteria for all is multi angle beyond the horizon
multiple target acquisition and counter measures. All these aircraft
have this. Long range super cruise allows for, well, longer range at
speed. Whether one aircraft is superior in combat to another is down to
the reliability of these systems, the ease and therefore likely
effectiveness with which the pilot can use them, and perhaps most
importantly the quality of the pilot in terms of sheer guts, skills and
training.
Iraqi pilots had some excellent aircraft in 1991 including the MIG 29
which at the time had the Russians unique helmet integrated weapons
system, way ahead of western development at the time. The pilot
literally just needed to look at the target. The MIG 29 is still an
excellent weapon system possessing all the virtues of air superiority,
and in the right hands could have been a serious problem to the Allies
during the Gulf war. Fortunately for us the Iraqi pilots were barely
able to take off and land safely let alone use the aircraft in combat.
Iraq is little more than a very unsophisticated third world country
getting ahead of it self through oil wealth. Victories over them are
more of an embarrassment than something we should crow about. They are
very easy meat indeed. For heavens sake Israel could take on the whole
united Arab world and lick them, and they are just a micro state. It
won't be until there is a battle between equals that the real ratios of
quality will be proven.
Part of the European air warfare system is based on air superiority
aircraft for defence, counter air, and tactical strike. For long range
strike the Tornado IDS is used. The Tornado is essentially a Mach 2
bomber capable of long range cruise at about Mach 1, designed to have a
degree of air to air defensive ability. It is routinely operated by the
RAF at grass top, let alone tree top height at speeds up to Mach 1. Very
much an RAF speciality unequalled elsewhere. This tactic has been proven
with consistent reliability to provide an extremely difficult target to
shoot down. Its dangerous, to the user, but a much cheaper way to
accurately place munitions on to a target than bombing from above 20,000
feet with smart bombs which are prohibitively expensive for large scale
use and distinctively ungentlemanly when deployed against lightly armed
savages!.
What is a little undignified though is all this bellicose sabre rattling
against Iraq, who we do not fear, because they are pants when it come to
war, when we are not prepared to offer the same posturing when opposed
by worse culprits such as China, North Korea or the old Soviet Union,
who we know, win or lose, would put up a real fight that would really
hurt us.
Having said that we should enforce UN rules about WOMD in Iraq and also
UN rules requiring Israel to withdraw from their settlements in what
remains of Palestine. We should resist forming opinions based on our
countries own rhetoric and propaganda. There is never going to be an end
to conflict as long as people are oppressed and treated unfairly, it
really is very simple and its up to the West to provide the moral
leadership its in a position to enforce. Where is that even handed
policeman the world desperately needs?
--
John Lubran
John S. Dyson
"Moving Vision" <m...@movingvision.co.uk> wrote in message news:8P0zOsGf...@movingvision.demon.co.uk...
>
> Iraqi pilots had some excellent aircraft in 1991 including the MIG 29
> which at the time had the Russians unique helmet integrated weapons
> system, way ahead of western development at the time. The pilot
> literally just needed to look at the target. The MIG 29 is still an
> excellent weapon system possessing all the virtues of air superiority,
> and in the right hands could have been a serious problem to the Allies
> during the Gulf war. Fortunately for us the Iraqi pilots were barely
> able to take off and land safely let alone use the aircraft in combat.
> Iraq is little more than a very unsophisticated third world country
> getting ahead of it self through oil wealth. Victories over them are
> more of an embarrassment than something we should crow about.
>
isn't of much use. This is the argument that I had made, and kind of
nullifies the notion that a superior air-frame is of rather specious
advantage without a good systems integration. This systems integration
will include the availability of large numbers of pilots who can withstand
the maneuvering, along with last-minute targeting.
The US also has some rather advanced airframes, perhaps not in production
for 50-200 units, but without the airframes being integrated into the system,
their advantage is of little strategic effect. This isn't a matter of technology,
but is a matter of tradeoffs for the appropriate ability to project power.
Having a few high-performant airframes, without a full systems integration,
is of about the same kind of power projection as a few ballistic missiles
(and about the same useful life.) :-). Even Israel can do airplanes.
I am not crowing about the US winning over a overblown power (3rd largest
army), but it is
clear that robust systems integration is what makes the difference. Even
more important is a capability of projecting power far away from the
home based facilities. The long supersonic cruise abilities, along with the
ability to integrate into a larger system, is what makes the difference.
3rd rate powers can indeed project power a few hundred miles from their
borders, perhaps a little more. It is a very different situation (logisitically
and planning) to project power over long distances. The long, supersonic
cruising distance is an example of attaining that goal. Perhaps the media
didn't make it clear as to the complexity of keeping conventional fighter/bombers
in the air for as long as has been achieved. Part of the missing systems
integration on airplanes that are efficient only in subsonic flight is that the
human animal has real limitations.
Geesh, the days of depending only upon piloted vehicles is dead. Doing much
more in that area is rather ludicrious, because of the problems with maintaining
the effectiveness of the pilots. It would perhaps be useful to extend the supersonic
capabilities for projection of power, but more aggressive maneuvers are limited by
the general population of pilots. Training becomes even more critical, and even
then, there are serious limits as to the ability of any piloted plane, not because of the
airframe. (It is suggested by some that the F22 series (modulo specific improvements)
might be one of the last manned conventionally designed fighters by the US.)
John