Pre-wiring home security systems
sa...@null.net
I'm interested in adding wiring for a security system in my home being built
now. I may subscribe to a monitoring service, but that's an unknown for now -
presently I only want to run wire, no hardware.
Questions:
Does it make sense to run the wiring and not hook up the hardware yet? (Cost
warning: We are at the absolute max of our house building budget, there are
no more pennies to pinch unless absolutely important to do so)
Is wiring fairly standard in security systems? If I have Brinks do my wiring,
can I choose ADT later for the hardware and monitoring? If I go with a local
small-operator for the wiring, will his wiring be compatible with off the
shelf components and other vendors/monitoring services? Is there any such
thing as "off the shelf" standards?
The wiring I'm planning presently (as makes sense for my blueprints):
- Window sensors - main floor and daylight basement
- Door sensors - all points of entry including door to garage from kitchen
- Glass breakage sensors - main floor and daylight basement
- Motion detectors - main floor (balancing cost of detectors vs effectiveness
of coverage - figure if all points on main floor that allow access to upstairs
sleeping quarters are covered, that's a good price/safety balance)
- Fire alarms - all floors - 1 per floor
- control panels - 1 at each main entry, and 1 in master bedroom
- siren(s)?
All wiring home run to wiring closet in basement.
Any suggestions as to the "zones?"
Thanks!
--- saint
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
hol...@heselectronics.com
In article <6il5tf$lai$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>#1/1,
Yes I think the money would be well spent pre-wiring a home while it's being
built. I have done many, and will confess, I wish I could have done mine.
As far as I'm concerned, it is the ultimate way for an alarm to be wired.
Just think of trying to add electrical outlets later. Many people will
put them in now, in anticipation. You should too.
You mentioned Brinks. You are also falling for the hype of radio and TV
ads. You should not exclude your local installer. AT LEAST give him the
same chances you would any one to do the job. You must remember, that in
most instances, the large mass-marketers are not interested in customizing
your installation. BE VERY CAREFUL and ask the right questions, It's your
home, and you'll have to live with it later.
Even if you don't get the alarm hardware installed now, you'll have it in
the future. I'll bet you'll be glad you did. I could give you a long list
of customers that will tell you: "DO IT NOW!"
I've been doing this for 16 years, with 23 years also in law enforcement.
John Lundgren
sa...@null.net wrote:
> I'm interested in adding wiring for a security system in my home being built
> now. I may subscribe to a monitoring service, but that's an unknown for now -
> presently I only want to run wire, no hardware.
> Questions:
[snip]
> Does it make sense to run the wiring and not hook up the hardware yet?
[snip]
> All wiring home run to wiring closet in basement.
> Any suggestions as to the "zones?"
The standard is to run a flex or conduit to each location so that you
can pull wire later. Most of our sensor wiring is just two pair riser
rated cat3 UTP. It's not that big of a thing to change if there is
conduit. Try the newsgroup comp.home.automation for more info.
> Thanks!
> --- saint
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Security PRO
I'll go out on a limb here and disagree with most of the other posts.
Minimal pre-wiring is always an advantage for any system.
However, most of what the other posts suggest can be done better with
wireless. For instance, protecting a double hung window. There is no better
way to do this. And it doesn't require an up front investment that is
critical to you.
Wires for the telephone, power and keypads are ideally dropped in before the
drywall. Beyond that, I wouldn't do anything!
Oh, and the completion price for the wireless VS. hardwire? Wireless will be
just a bit more expensive to complete......... but remember, the pre-wire
was a whole lot less expensive in the first place. The total cost for equal
protection & features & reliability & convenience should be very, very
similar for new construction.
By going wireless you have all the luxury of hardwire without the commitment
and expense of hardwire. It's the best of both worlds!
Talk to a local alarm company. Shop around and get an education. Then make a
smart choice. Read the fine print.
And, if it sounds too good to be true it probably is. There are no "free
systems"
Best of luck!
sa...@null.net wrote in message <6il5tf$lai$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>I'm interested in adding wiring for a security system in my home being
built
>now. I may subscribe to a monitoring service, but that's an unknown for
now -
>presently I only want to run wire, no hardware.
>
>Questions:
>
>Does it make sense to run the wiring and not hook up the hardware yet?
(Cost
>warning: We are at the absolute max of our house building budget, there
are
>no more pennies to pinch unless absolutely important to do so)
>
>Is wiring fairly standard in security systems? If I have Brinks do my
wiring,
>can I choose ADT later for the hardware and monitoring? If I go with a
local
>small-operator for the wiring, will his wiring be compatible with off the
>shelf components and other vendors/monitoring services? Is there any such
>thing as "off the shelf" standards?
>
>The wiring I'm planning presently (as makes sense for my blueprints):
>
>- Window sensors - main floor and daylight basement
>- Door sensors - all points of entry including door to garage from kitchen
>- Glass breakage sensors - main floor and daylight basement
>- Motion detectors - main floor (balancing cost of detectors vs
effectiveness
>of coverage - figure if all points on main floor that allow access to
upstairs
>sleeping quarters are covered, that's a good price/safety balance)
>- Fire alarms - all floors - 1 per floor
>- control panels - 1 at each main entry, and 1 in master bedroom
>- siren(s)?
>
>All wiring home run to wiring closet in basement.
>
>Any suggestions as to the "zones?"
>
Rich Osman
sa...@null.net wrote:
> All wiring home run to wiring closet in basement.
>
Good move.
> Any suggestions as to the "zones?"
If you are home running you don't care 'til you install the hardware.
I can't tell you what's right, but here's what I did. I bought a 1000' of six pair
telco wire ($60 in 1986) and home ran it to a panel in the attic. Today you can
get cat 3/4/5 as cheap (free in the right place) surplus. I put a box at every
window and door and have no more than 1/4" of exposed sensor wire in any
location. I ran armored cable to the garage door sensors. I've got enough extra
wire so that the glass breakage sensors I added were a painless change, and I've
put some phones where I hadn't originally planned.
Oz
John Vassel
sa...@null.net wrote:
>
> I'm interested in adding wiring for a security system in my home being built
> now. I may subscribe to a monitoring service, but that's an unknown for now -
> presently I only want to run wire, no hardware.
>
> Questions:
>
> Does it make sense to run the wiring and not hook up the hardware yet? (Cost
> warning: We are at the absolute max of our house building budget, there are
> no more pennies to pinch unless absolutely important to do so)
>
> Is wiring fairly standard in security systems? If I have Brinks do my wiring,
> can I choose ADT later for the hardware and monitoring? If I go with a local
> small-operator for the wiring, will his wiring be compatible with off the
> shelf components and other vendors/monitoring services? Is there any such
> thing as "off the shelf" standards?
>
> The wiring I'm planning presently (as makes sense for my blueprints):
>
> - Window sensors - main floor and daylight basement
> - Door sensors - all points of entry including door to garage from kitchen
> - Glass breakage sensors - main floor and daylight basement
> - Motion detectors - main floor (balancing cost of detectors vs effectiveness
> of coverage - figure if all points on main floor that allow access to upstairs
> sleeping quarters are covered, that's a good price/safety balance)
> - Fire alarms - all floors - 1 per floor
> - control panels - 1 at each main entry, and 1 in master bedroom
> - siren(s)?
>
>
>
>
> --- saint
>
> -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Wow...a lot of Great replies to your post...Mine will be on a less
important factor.
Buying the appropriate window and door contacts and installing them now
will allow for better appearance.
Often I see home-owners Drill the 3/8 hole for the contact and leave the
wire dangling out the hole. Well, once the wood dries out a little, it's
nearly impossible to get a splice and/or the contact back into the hole.
Good Luck
Jacob Ashbury
All good and sage advice.
The swelling holes will really happen- and remember paint and cut wires too.
If you're doing pre-wire, use 4-con, even on doors. A broken wire later
could kill a 2-con run.
Any runs near flourescent or refrigerators I always use double 4-con and
twist the runs together (a-la twisted pair- telco guys). The twisted 4-con
really works. I've used it many times.
Get some 18 fire-wire for your power, keypad, snokes and siren. You won't
be sorry.
Also, get really good pipe and run your telephone line in it (if over head).
The phone guys may grief you a little but they'll finally go for it. Get a
lock for the interface. Run the phone line through the interface into the
house. No exposed pnone lines- no matter what.
With a pre-wire you can prevent all the things that grief us later.
--
T.A.Y.S./Sun Alarm (Service technicians and installers)
Box 45
Arab, AL 35016
(256) 586-0918
ch...@mindsprings.com
John Vassel wrote in message <354E6B57...@ameritech.net>...
Michel Gagnon
<hol...@heselectronics.com> wrote:
> In article <6il5tf$lai$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>#1/1,
> Yes I think the money would be well spent pre-wiring a home while it's being
> built.
All cables should be home run, that is each one should run to the wiring
closet in the basement. You also need to install a keypad near each
possible entry door. Wiring could be done by your telephone cable
technician, as the same cabling methods are used. You need a "fireproof
rated" cable -- usually 4-wire cable.
What I would suggest is that you install cables to each window and door
as those are especially hard to wire later. Detectors themselves are
fairly standard: there are differences in infra-red detectors and their
lenses to take care of short vs long range, pets vs no pets, etc.
Likewise, keypads will differ between makers and the control box will.
You could, however install standard detectors (or leave a dangling
cable), and install a shallow metal box for de control panels. These
would be covered by a blank plate (0,25 $) until you are ready for the
system. In the same vein, install electric supply and alarm cable supply
to all smoke detectors. That way, you can install regular detectors for
now and replace them with some linked to your system later.
--
Michel Gagnon -- Montréal (Québec, Canada)
Michel...@videotron.ca
sa...@null.net
Once again, excellent information to a rash of questions. Thank you very much
everyone for your responses! Time to digest them all and see if it all makes
sense :)
--- saint
Jim Sokoloff
"Security PRO" <iti_wi...@yahoo.com> writes:
> I'll go out on a limb here and disagree with most of the other posts.
OK, that's what this is for. I'll go ahead and disagree with some of
what you said. :-)
> However, most of what the other posts suggest can be done better with
> wireless. For instance, protecting a double hung window. There is no better
> way to do this. And it doesn't require an up front investment that is
> critical to you.
No, but it does require later addition of bulkier hardware (because of
the batteries) and the periodic checking/replacing of the those same
batteries. Forgetting whether wireless is more or less anything, it's
less convenient to the end user IMO and IME.
Frankly, I find the (on the small side) wired alarm sensors big and
ugly enough; I don't need them bigger and uglier.
> Oh, and the completion price for the wireless VS. hardwire? Wireless will be
> just a bit more expensive to complete......... but remember, the pre-wire
> was a whole lot less expensive in the first place. The total cost for equal
> protection & features & reliability & convenience should be very, very
> similar for new construction.
I would argue that it's similiar for existing construction, but for
new construction, pulling wires and installing a hardwired system
(with ONE centrally located battery, which is for backup, maybe two
batteries [the other for a siren]) beats the hassle and relative
obtrusiveness of batteries in every protected location. And I'd
imagine it would be cheaper in the long run, but it's hard to make a
blanket cost comparison for all cases.
> By going wireless you have all the luxury of hardwire without the commitment
> and expense of hardwire. It's the best of both worlds!
A paragraph ago, you argued that "wireless will be just a bit more
expensive to complete"... I agree of course, and wonder where the
"without the expense" is now coming from. Alarm wire is pretty darn
cheap; granted the original poster indicated they were at the end of
their means, so wireless may make sense for them because of short-term
cashflow situations, but wireless is either cheaper or more
expensive. And I'd guess that 99 out of 100 it's the latter. :-)
> Talk to a local alarm company. Shop around and get an education. Then make a
> smart choice. Read the fine print.
THIS is excellent advice of course.
---Jim
Security PRO
Thanks for the fair rebuttal!
Jim Sokoloff wrote in message ...
>"Security PRO" <iti_wi...@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>> I'll go out on a limb here and disagree with most of the other posts.
>
>OK, that's what this is for. I'll go ahead and disagree with some of
>what you said. :-)
>
>> However, most of what the other posts suggest can be done better with
>> wireless. For instance, protecting a double hung window. There is no
better
>> way to do this. And it doesn't require an up front investment that is
>> critical to you.
>
>No, but it does require later addition of bulkier hardware (because of
>the batteries) and the periodic checking/replacing of the those same
>batteries. Forgetting whether wireless is more or less anything, it's
>less convenient to the end user IMO and IME.
>
>Frankly, I find the (on the small side) wired alarm sensors big and
>ugly enough; I don't need them bigger and uglier.
Changing the batteries? IF that the issue, then I'll use a sensor with a 20
year battery life. I would expect they'll be ready for a new system by then!
On a double hung window, properly installed, they're fairly inconspicious.
Or, if you'll give me some latitude, I'll install a sensor that is as big as
3 half dollars stacked that has a 5 year battery life. Oh, and did you say
you wanted open window protection?
>
>> Oh, and the completion price for the wireless VS. hardwire? Wireless will
be
>> just a bit more expensive to complete......... but remember, the pre-wire
>> was a whole lot less expensive in the first place. The total cost for
equal
>> protection & features & reliability & convenience should be very, very
>> similar for new construction.
>
>I would argue that it's similiar for existing construction, but for
>new construction, pulling wires and installing a hardwired system
>(with ONE centrally located battery, which is for backup, maybe two
>batteries [the other for a siren]) beats the hassle and relative
>obtrusiveness of batteries in every protected location. And I'd
>imagine it would be cheaper in the long run, but it's hard to make a
>blanket cost comparison for all cases.
Maybe. Do user changeable batteries count? Obtrusive batteries? How about
the size of a quarter? You can buy the batteries at Walmart if you like! The
cost becomes relative to the specific of labor cost. If I can install 10
windows with wireless in the time it takes you to install 1 window hardwire
and run the wire, which is more economical? That depends! I've never
replaced a wireless sensor to to a lightning strike............
>
>> By going wireless you have all the luxury of hardwire without the
commitment
>> and expense of hardwire. It's the best of both worlds!
>
>A paragraph ago, you argued that "wireless will be just a bit more
>expensive to complete"... I agree of course, and wonder where the
>"without the expense" is now coming from. Alarm wire is pretty darn
>cheap; granted the original poster indicated they were at the end of
>their means, so wireless may make sense for them because of short-term
>cashflow situations, but wireless is either cheaper or more
>expensive. And I'd guess that 99 out of 100 it's the latter. :-)
I guess I wasn't clear. When it comes time to finish the system, if the
house was prewired with either intention, wireless will be a bit more
expensive. But, the wireless rough-in didn't cost nearly as much as the
hardwire rough-in. The net result on the whole job? Very comparable. Oh, and
did I hear you say you wanted a key FOB? Or a handheld panic button? Then
you have to go wireless anyway! Why not do it from the start?
>
>> Talk to a local alarm company. Shop around and get an education. Then
make a
>> smart choice. Read the fine print.
>
>THIS is excellent advice of course.
>
>---Jim
Thanks for the input Jim!
It's always fun to argue the issues based on facts! And I respect your
opinion, I just happen to disagree this time :)
Jacob Ashbury
Let me add one more- always check the resistance on your wires before the
sheetrocker. If you have any cuts or pulls it's best to catch them before
hard work enters the picture.
(Personally I hate stranded wire, but Barry May (below) has a valid point.
Standed wire will take abuse beyond solid core)
--
T.A.Y.S./Sun Alarm (Service technicians and installers)
Box 45
Arab, AL 35016
(256) 586-0918
ch...@mindsprings.com
Barry May wrote in message <354FC142...@security-zone.com>...
>You got some sound advise. I would like to add two items.
>
>Any wire you use, make sure its stranded. Either 5 strands for #22 or 7
strands
>for #20. A solid type of wire tends to break at connection points and
could cause
>false alarms.
>
>When wiring the house, definitly go in after the electrician or you will
find a
>number of wires cut (sometimes intentional.) Try also to go in after the
insullation
Joyce Steyer
In article <6il5tf$lai$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, sa...@null.net says...
>
><snip>
>- siren(s)?
>
Should have at least one outside audible. Inside make sure that you install
them in locations so that noise can be heard loudly in sleeping area of the
house.
>
>Any suggestions as to the "zones?"
Best scenario is to use a panel like the NAPCO MA3000 which enables you to
have individual zoning (i.e. one point per zone). Makes it super simple to
troubleshoot down the road.
Comment on wireless - Don't forget with these units you have to
periodically make sure batteries are well charged or you will have problems.
J. Steyer
(former alarm company employee and long time owner)
Barry May
You got some sound advise. I would like to add two items.
Any wire you use, make sure its stranded. Either 5 strands for #22 or 7 strands
for #20. A solid type of wire tends to break at connection points and could cause
false alarms.
When wiring the house, definitly go in after the electrician or you will find a
number of wires cut (sometimes intentional.) Try also to go in after the
insullation.
Barry May
Security Consultant
AES IntelliNet Rep
ba...@security-zone.com
sa...@null.net wrote:
> I'm interested in adding wiring for a security system in my home being built
> now. I may subscribe to a monitoring service, but that's an unknown for now -
> presently I only want to run wire, no hardware.
>
> Questions:
>
> Does it make sense to run the wiring and not hook up the hardware yet? (Cost
> warning: We are at the absolute max of our house building budget, there are
> no more pennies to pinch unless absolutely important to do so)
>
> Is wiring fairly standard in security systems? If I have Brinks do my wiring,
> can I choose ADT later for the hardware and monitoring? If I go with a local
> small-operator for the wiring, will his wiring be compatible with off the
> shelf components and other vendors/monitoring services? Is there any such
> thing as "off the shelf" standards?
>
> The wiring I'm planning presently (as makes sense for my blueprints):
>
> - Window sensors - main floor and daylight basement
> - Door sensors - all points of entry including door to garage from kitchen
> - Glass breakage sensors - main floor and daylight basement
> - Motion detectors - main floor (balancing cost of detectors vs effectiveness
> of coverage - figure if all points on main floor that allow access to upstairs
> sleeping quarters are covered, that's a good price/safety balance)
> - Fire alarms - all floors - 1 per floor
> - control panels - 1 at each main entry, and 1 in master bedroom
> - siren(s)?
>
> All wiring home run to wiring closet in basement.
>
> Any suggestions as to the "zones?"
>
Barry May
> However, most of what the other posts suggest can be done better with
> wireless. For instance, protecting a double hung window. There is no better
> way to do this. And it doesn't require an up front investment that is
> critical to you.
Prewire for a double hung window is not a problem. It just requires an extra
wire run from the top to the bottom sash. We used to direct wire contacts and
foil without the use of plugs or spring loaded contacts.
To wire both bottom and top, run your two conductor to the top of the double
hung passing the point where the contact will be mounted on the bottom portion.
Split the wire back to the bottom contact. Run a single wire from the bottom to
the top contact. You now have an unspliced drop to both top and bottom. If you
would like, I can send you a drawing of this.
Another point. If you would like to be able to open the bottom of a double hung
4-6 inches, mount the contact on the side and use a second magnet to give you
the opening desired.
elw...@cybercomm.net
Call a local independant security installation company. If you cant
get a recommendation from a friend or neighbor, call the better
Business Bureau.
Get a price for prewire initially and the cost to complete at a later
date. Any reputable dealer will work with you in this manner. Prewire
will cost approx. 1/3 of entire installation. All windows will be
wired with concealed magnetic switches with wiring dropped to crawl or
basement for later finish. Keypads can be prewired with wire left
buried in sheetrock above lightswitch at entry door and bedroom for
example. At least one infrared sensor should be installed for interior
coverage on the main level. If you have 2nd floor windows accessible
from a roofline, have magnetic contacts installed and prewired to
attic. In fact, during new construction, its not that much more to
prewire all 2nd floor windows. Another siggestion is to install a 2"
PVC conduit from the basement to attic for future wire pulls.
Please...do yourself a favor...consider independant companies over the
nationals. The big boys generally are not interested in working with
you in this piece meal fashion. You should be able to prewire a 2
story colonial with all wiring in place and magnetic window switches
as discussed above for $300-$500 depending on size of system.
And be critical of "free" or low cost systems. They generally require
an extended (3-5 yr) monitoring contract at an above market price.
Code requires smoke detectors in all bedrooms, hallways (and not
exceeding 10 feet from any bedroom door) , and on each level including
basement. If you are not going to install complete integrated security
system immediately, then let the electrician provide the standard AC
smokes.
BTW, I own a security company with a 22 yr track record in NJ.
Robert L Bass
>You got some sound advise. I would like to add two items.
>
>Any wire you use, make sure its stranded. Either 5 strands for #22 or 7 strands
>for #20. A solid type of wire tends to break at connection points and could cause
>false alarms.
This is absolutely wrong. Solid wire only breaks if you flex it
repeatedly or if you are careless while stripping it. Stranded wires
is beneficial for cables that are not permanently installed -- audio
connectors, speaker wires and such.
The proper technique for stripping insulation from small guage wire
(solid or stranded) is as follows: Grip the wire firmly with a sharp
pair of diagonal cutters (or side cutters). Do NOT cut through the
insulation with the cutters. Rather, pull the insulation off the end.
This avoids nicking the sonductor with the tool.
I have installed thousands of security systems over the past 19+
years. We do not use stranded cable for burglar alarm circuits. I have
not yet had a wire break off at a connection point.
Stranded wire, OTOH, has a propensity to cause lots of problems with
inadvertent shorts. There is no reason to use stranded wire on
permamently installed alarm circuits.
>When wiring the house, definitly go in after the electrician or you will find a
>number of wires cut (sometimes intentional.) Try also to go in after the
>insullation.
On this we almost agree. The low voltage wiring should be pulled
during or immediately after the high voltage work. Romex (plastic
jacketed 110/220 cables) tends to slice the small guage wires the
alarm uses when it is pulled across them.
I usually work after the electrician is finished on small jobe (less
the 3500 sf). On larger projects this is not always feasible. We
coordinate our work with the superintendant or the general contractor.
Also, when we are not hired by the builder but the homeowner (and that
is most of the time), I talk with the electricians on the job before I
begin. I'll ask what areas they need me to avoid or if there's
anything I can do to make it easier for them. Often they are
installing a 110 outlet for our transformer. Instead of telling them
where I'd like the outlet, I ask where it will be easiest for them to
put it. Invariably that is on the same backboard as the breaker box. I
offer to run my low voltage wire there so they don't have to run to my
location. If I need something special for a wiring closet I'll ask
them what is the easiest way for them. No one ever cut my wires on
purpose.
Blue Skies,
Robert L Bass
========================>
Bass Home Electronics >
80 Bentwood Road >
W Hartford, CT 06107 >
alar...@BassHome.com >
http://www.BassHome.com >
860-561-9542 Voice >
860-521-2143 Fax >
========================>
Robert L Bass
>> However, most of what the other posts suggest can be done better with
>> wireless. For instance, protecting a double hung window. There is no better
>> way to do this. And it doesn't require an up front investment that is
>> critical to you.
>
>Prewire for a double hung window is not a problem. It just requires an extra
>wire run from the top to the bottom sash. We used to direct wire contacts and
>foil without the use of plugs or spring loaded contacts.
>
>To wire both bottom and top, run your two conductor to the top of the double
>hung passing the point where the contact will be mounted on the bottom portion.
>Split the wire back to the bottom contact. Run a single wire from the bottom to
>the top contact. You now have an unspliced drop to both top and bottom. If you
>would like, I can send you a drawing of this.
Again we disagree. The top sash, if it is to be wired at all, should
not be spliced into the bottom sash's circuit inside the wall. This
would make diagnostics and service much more difficult. Instead, run
both contacts (upper and lower sash) to the basement or attic
(depending on construction). Iether place each device on a separate
alarm zone (ideal situation) or join the two to a single zone. But
always make your splice in an accessible location. NEVER make a
concealed splice between two different sensors.
>Another point. If you would like to be able to open the bottom of a double hung
>4-6 inches, mount the contact on the side and use a second magnet to give you
>the opening desired.
Agreed.
al...@gnofn.org
On Wed, 06 May 1998 18:38:13 GMT, alar...@BassHome.com (Robert L
Bass) wrote:
>I have installed thousands of security systems over the past 19+
>years. We do not use stranded cable for burglar alarm circuits. I have
>not yet had a wire break off at a connection point.
>
>Stranded wire, OTOH, has a propensity to cause lots of problems with
>inadvertent shorts. There is no reason to use stranded wire on
>permamently installed alarm circuits.
Stranded wire handles data better than solid wire. Twisted wire
handles data better than zip wire. Some devices are recommended to be
run on shielded wire. While our alarm company uses solid wire for
most wiring for security devices and for power, we wire keypads,
polling loop devices, and other security system data carrying lines
with stranded twisted wire or with shielded wire. Home automation and
home entertainment systems have there own wire requirements.
The wire choice in the end will depend on what device is going to be
attached to the wire. Determine what is going to be wired and what
the plans for future devices are, and then you can determine what
kinds of wire to run.
br...@karas.com.delthis
This is untrue. The attenuation factor on stranded wire is much worse
than on solid wire. In datacomm installations you'd never use
stranded wire for anything other than the patch cables, and the
distance of those is kept as short as possible in most installations.
On Thu, 07 May 1998 17:06:50 GMT, al...@gnofn.org wrote:
>
>Stranded wire handles data better than solid wire. Twisted wire
>handles data better than zip wire. Some devices are recommended to be
>
--
Brian@ 'at' @Karas. 'dot' .com.
Return address munged to prevent SPAM...
http://www.geocities.com/researchtriangle/3300
David Lesher
al...@gnofn.org writes:
>Stranded wire handles data better than solid wire.
Gee, both Ma Bell and Ethernet have been doing just fine for the
last googleplex of bits that passed. And She had installers putting
in every phone jack in the country before '84; THEY learned how to
avoid nicks.
The IMPORTANT thing is to get SOME wire into place before the
wallboarders show up. Guess where you want things, then double it.
THEN, walk around with a videocam and zoom on each one. You WILL
need it to find same later.
Also, don't forget the basement->attic conduit run.
--
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
Jim Sokoloff
al...@gnofn.org writes:
> On Wed, 06 May 1998 18:38:13 GMT, alar...@BassHome.com (Robert L
> Bass) wrote:
>
> >I have installed thousands of security systems over the past 19+
> >years. We do not use stranded cable for burglar alarm circuits. I have
> >not yet had a wire break off at a connection point.
> >
> >Stranded wire, OTOH, has a propensity to cause lots of problems with
> >inadvertent shorts. There is no reason to use stranded wire on
> >permamently installed alarm circuits.
>
> Stranded wire handles data better than solid wire.
Stranded wire handles CURRENT better than solid wire (of same size,
yada yada). There's no real advantage in data transmission either
way (for practical, currently available data transmission models).
> Twisted wire handles data better than zip wire.
No doubt about that.
> Some devices are recommended to be
> run on shielded wire. While our alarm company uses solid wire for
> most wiring for security devices and for power, we wire keypads,
> polling loop devices, and other security system data carrying lines
> with stranded twisted wire or with shielded wire.
I can't see any reason for installing stranded in the wall for data
requirements. Solid is easier to work with, cheaper (in general), and
its cheif limitation (lack of fatigue life in repeated flexing) is a
non-issue. (twisted pair does not imply stranded, nor vice versa)
I'm not saying that what you're doing is stupid, I think it's not
necessary.
---Jim
Barry May
> This is absolutely wrong. Solid wire only breaks if you flex it
> repeatedly or if you are careless while stripping it. Stranded wires
> is beneficial for cables that are not permanently installed -- audio
> connectors, speaker wires and such.
The main problem with using solid wire is at screw terminals. Most of the old timers
will tell you that using solid wire causes problems over the long haul. Hate to say
it, I'm now one of those old timers. The problem with solid wire is amplified when you
consider the miniscule currents that burglar alarms use. Telephone circuits have
higher currents and can "jump" a partial break. Using stranded wire is a burglar alarm
industry standard because of the mininal currents. This is even more important in this
day of micro-processors. Using solid wire is done because its easier to handle when
terminating therefore done out of convience rather than for good practice.
> The proper technique for stripping insulation from small guage wire
> (solid or stranded) is as follows: Grip the wire firmly with a sharp
> pair of diagonal cutters (or side cutters). Do NOT cut through the
> insulation with the cutters. Rather, pull the insulation off the end.
> This avoids nicking the sonductor with the tool.
I like your discription
> I have installed thousands of security systems over the past 19+
> years. We do not use stranded cable for burglar alarm circuits. I have
> not yet had a wire break off at a connection point.
As I stated before, its not wire breaks but swinger separations causing those pesky
false alarms.
> Stranded wire, OTOH, has a propensity to cause lots of problems with
> inadvertent shorts. There is no reason to use stranded wire on
> permamently installed alarm circuits.
Hey, we would tin those end wire or use spade connectors. Shorts were never a
problem.
> I usually work after the electrician is finished on small jobe (less
> the 3500 sf). On larger projects this is not always feasible. We
> coordinate our work with the superintendant or the general contractor.
Try working in the highly unionized community like New York City and see how many wires
are "accidently" sliced.
> Also, when we are not hired by the builder but the homeowner (and that
> is most of the time), I talk with the electricians on the job before I
> begin. I'll ask what areas they need me to avoid or if there's
> anything I can do to make it easier for them. Often they are
> installing a 110 outlet for our transformer. Instead of telling them
> where I'd like the outlet, I ask where it will be easiest for them to
> put it. Invariably that is on the same backboard as the breaker box. I
> offer to run my low voltage wire there so they don't have to run to my
> location. If I need something special for a wiring closet I'll ask
> them what is the easiest way for them. No one ever cut my wires on
> purpose.
The old cooperation routine which I also used successfully. Good point.
Marlin Jones
Barry, could you please explain your reasoning here a bit more? I can
understand higher currents making you more immune to things like
corrosion caused resistance but I'm not sure if that's what you're
talking about. And if we're talking corrosion I don't see much of a
difference between stranded and solid...
I also don't understand your comments about higher currents "jumping"
partial breaks. Did you mean higher voltages?
> The main problem with using solid wire is at screw terminals. Most of the old timers
> will tell you that using solid wire causes problems over the long haul. Hate to say
> it, I'm now one of those old timers. The problem with solid wire is amplified when you
> consider the miniscule currents that burglar alarms use. Telephone circuits have
> higher currents and can "jump" a partial break. Using stranded wire is a burglar alarm
> industry standard because of the mininal currents. This is even more important in this
> day of micro-processors. Using solid wire is done because its easier to handle when
> terminating therefore done out of convience rather than for good practice.
I guess that I shouldn't note that the microprocessor has solid wire
(gold bond wires) connecting it to the outside world? :-)
I guess my basic problem is that (assuming that the wire doesn't flex) I
don't see the advantage of stranded for this application. I've also
seen _very_ large numbers of wires used for RS-232 connections that used
standard 24 ga. solid wire exactly like the phone company does. (I'm
talking thousands and thousands of punch block connections.) And RS-232
has pretty similar levels to what alarm systems use...
> > Stranded wire, OTOH, has a propensity to cause lots of problems with
> > inadvertent shorts. There is no reason to use stranded wire on
> > permamently installed alarm circuits.
>
> Hey, we would tin those end wire or use spade connectors. Shorts were never a
> problem.
Good point. When I use stranded I always tin first. But I'm a solder
bigot. :-)
> The old cooperation routine which I also used successfully. Good point.
Amen!
Marlin Jones
(I get brutal amounts of spam. You can email me at m...@cup.hp.com if you
add a "j" after the "m")
aa...@_no.spam.deltanet.com
>The main problem with using solid wire is at screw terminals. Most of the old timers
>will tell you that using solid wire causes problems over the long haul. Hate to say
>it, I'm now one of those old timers. The problem with solid wire is amplified when you
>consider the miniscule currents that burglar alarms use. Telephone circuits have
>higher currents and can "jump" a partial break. Using stranded wire is a burglar alarm
>industry standard because of the mininal currents. This is even more important in this
>day of micro-processors. Using solid wire is done because its easier to handle when
>terminating therefore done out of convience rather than for good practice.
It's just not true. Stranded wire is NOT a burglar alarm industry standard.
Want proof? ADT has installed millions of alarm systems, and has
always used solid wire, except where flexibility is an issue. I also
agree with Robert L. Bass; I use solid wire and have no problems
whatsoever with wires breaking off at terminals. Don't nick the wire
when stripping it! And by the way, I can't tell you how many times
I've seen stranded wire connections at terminals where the installer
chopped off half the strands while stripping the wire. The standard
argument is, if even one strand holds together, it still works, where
solid wire would have broken. Personally, if the wire is nicked that
badly, I'd just as soon it break NOW and get it over with.
Robert L Bass
>al...@gnofn.org writes:
>
>> On Wed, 06 May 1998 18:38:13 GMT, alar...@BassHome.com (Robert L
>> Bass) wrote:
>>
>> >years. We do not use stranded cable for burglar alarm circuits. I have
>> >not yet had a wire break off at a connection point.
>> >
>> >inadvertent shorts. There is no reason to use stranded wire on
>> >permamently installed alarm circuits.
>>
>
>Stranded wire handles CURRENT better than solid wire (of same size,
>yada yada). There's no real advantage in data transmission either
>way (for practical, currently available data transmission models).
Hmm. As I recall, current is limited by resistance, not by surface
topology. Seems as though we agree here, Jim.
>> Twisted wire handles data better than zip wire.
>
>No doubt about that.
>
>> Some devices are recommended to be
>> run on shielded wire. While our alarm company uses solid wire for
>> most wiring for security devices and for power, we wire keypads,
>> polling loop devices, and other security system data carrying lines
>> with stranded twisted wire or with shielded wire.
>
>I can't see any reason for installing stranded in the wall for data
>requirements. Solid is easier to work with, cheaper (in general), and
>its cheif limitation (lack of fatigue life in repeated flexing) is a
>non-issue. (twisted pair does not imply stranded, nor vice versa)
>
>I'm not saying that what you're doing is stupid, I think it's not
>necessary.
>
>---Jim
Also, it is my understanding that stranded wire is not to be used for
CAT 5 applications. I'm not sure if that's correct. But then again I
haven't seen any stranded CAT 5 UTP around. Perhaps one of the EEs
that reads this group can explain it better.
Barry May
> Barry, could you please explain your reasoning here a bit more? I can
> understand higher currents making you more immune to things like
> corrosion caused resistance but I'm not sure if that's what you're
> talking about. And if we're talking corrosion I don't see much of a
> difference between stranded and solid...
I should refer to installation practices. The tightening of wire on a screw terminal can
produce a particle break. Its this particle break that causes the problem. Sometimes it may
take years sometimes its an immediate problem. Turning the screw on a terminal will pull the
wire clockwise and tension the wire.
> I also don't understand your comments about higher currents "jumping"
> partial breaks. Did you mean higher voltages?
I'm referring to high resistant connections that the higher currents tend to mend.
> I guess that I shouldn't note that the microprocessor has solid wire
> (gold bond wires) connecting it to the outside world? :-)
Those are on a board and either soldered or ultrasonically mended. I experimented in college
with producing circuits. It was fun making those connections under a microscope. BTW, some
of those connections are aluminum and copper. Those connections are on a ridged background
with no tension of screw terminals that we work with in the real world.
> I guess my basic problem is that (assuming that the wire doesn't flex) I
> don't see the advantage of stranded for this application. I've also
> seen _very_ large numbers of wires used for RS-232 connections that used
> standard 24 ga. solid wire exactly like the phone company does. (I'm
> talking thousands and thousands of punch block connections.) And RS-232
> has pretty similar levels to what alarm systems use...
How many are on screw terminals?
I spoke to other installers. They seem to agree with me and provided other reasons. When
pulling stranded wire, there is more give and less problems with breakage. Wires in walls
also tend to become brittle and crack, thus producing some of the problems I referred to.
One installer said he replaced every wire in one particular house because of so many
problem. Many of the courses (NY licensing course is one) suggest that best results are
obtained from stranded wire. It is also suggested that stranded has more resistance to RFI,
a big problem with burglar alarms.
Hey, I'm not the one that originated stranded wire as the better choice, but I do support it
with many years of experience. Solid wire is cheaper and easier to work with but that should
not be the only reason to choose it.
Barry May
Robert L Bass
>> Barry, could you please explain your reasoning here a bit more? I can
>> understand higher currents making you more immune to things like
>> corrosion caused resistance but I'm not sure if that's what you're
>> talking about. And if we're talking corrosion I don't see much of a
>> difference between stranded and solid...
>
>I should refer to installation practices. The tightening of wire on a screw terminal can
>produce a particle break. Its this particle break that causes the problem. Sometimes it may
>take years sometimes its an immediate problem. Turning the screw on a terminal will pull the
>wire clockwise and tension the wire.
I guess every single phone data, CTAV connector in the world is doomed
then. Barry, you are completely wrong. The fact is a properly stripped
cable (solid copper wire as is used throughout the industry of course)
will last for decades without problams. However, if you turn the
screws down with a torque wrench you may cause yourself problems.
The problem you experienced is improper installation technique, not
improper wire. Just don't tighten the screw terminals like a gorilla,
Barry.
>> I also don't understand your comments about higher currents "jumping"
>> partial breaks. Did you mean higher voltages?
>
>I'm referring to high resistant connections that the higher currents tend to mend.
High current mends nothing, sir. Higher current only tends to cause
heat and contributes to breakdown of materials. But the current in
most security, telecom and data apps is miniscule. In any case, none
of the 6-51 VDC current tends to "mend" broken wires. To mend them
you'd have to either solder them or heat the copper to the point of
melting it together. That procedure is considered a safety hazard when
applied to in-place wiring in a residence. ;)
>> I guess that I shouldn't note that the microprocessor has solid wire
>> (gold bond wires) connecting it to the outside world? :-)
>
>Those are on a board and either soldered or ultrasonically mended. I experimented in college
>with producing circuits. It was fun making those connections under a microscope. BTW, some
>of those connections are aluminum and copper. Those connections are on a ridged background
>with no tension of screw terminals that we work with in the real world.
>
>> I guess my basic problem is that (assuming that the wire doesn't flex) I
>> don't see the advantage of stranded for this application. I've also
>> seen _very_ large numbers of wires used for RS-232 connections that used
>> standard 24 ga. solid wire exactly like the phone company does. (I'm
>> talking thousands and thousands of punch block connections.) And RS-232
>> has pretty similar levels to what alarm systems use...
>
>How many are on screw terminals?
This is not an issue. If you tighten the crew terminals with an air
hammer it might be a problem though.
>I spoke to other installers. They seem to agree with me and provided other reasons. When
>pulling stranded wire, there is more give and less problems with breakage. Wires in walls
>also tend to become brittle and crack, thus producing some of the problems I referred to.
>One installer said he replaced every wire in one particular house because of so many
>problem. Many of the courses (NY licensing course is one) suggest that best results are
>obtained from stranded wire. It is also suggested that stranded has more resistance to RFI,
>a big problem with burglar alarms.
I'm not sure which installers you spoke to. But the vast majority of
alarm and communications techs NEVER use stranded wire. I've been
doing this for many years.
>Hey, I'm not the one that originated stranded wire as the better choice, but I do support it
>with many years of experience. Solid wire is cheaper and easier to work with but that should
>not be the only reason to choose it.
No, Barry. One chooses solid wire because it's the right kind to use.
One avoids stranded wire because it adds much unnecessary labor,
requires tinning and lugging, tends to cause shorts and did I mention
it's not the right wire to use?
br...@karas.com.delthis
On Fri, 08 May 1998 01:57:15 GMT, alar...@BassHome.com (Robert L
Bass) wrote:
>
>Hmm. As I recall, current is limited by resistance, not by surface
>topology. Seems as though we agree here, Jim.
Depending on the voltage (DC or AC) and a few other factors... About
80% of the current flows on the outer 'skin' of the conductor.
Stranded wire has more 'skin' thus allowing greater current flow.
>
>Also, it is my understanding that stranded wire is not to be used for
>CAT 5 applications. I'm not sure if that's correct. But then again I
>haven't seen any stranded CAT 5 UTP around. Perhaps one of the EEs
>that reads this group can explain it better.
>
This is not _entirely_ correct, it is to be avoided whenever possible,
but it _is_ used for datacomm cables that will be subject to repeated
flexing. Such as patch cords at the cross connect area, and outlet to
workstation connections. You can buy 1000' spools of stranded wire,
it is more expensive, and is a huge pain to crimp or terminate
properly in the field.
David Lesher
br...@karas.com.delthis writes:
>Depending on the voltage (DC or AC) and a few other factors... About
>80% of the current flows on the outer 'skin' of the conductor.
>Stranded wire has more 'skin' thus allowing greater current flow.
Err... Skin effect is a non-player at anything below microwave
frequencies. Do the math & you'll see.....
Barry May
> I guess every single phone data, CTAV connector in the world is doomed
> then. Barry, you are completely wrong. The fact is a properly stripped
> cable (solid copper wire as is used throughout the industry of course)
> will last for decades without problams. However, if you turn the
> screws down with a torque wrench you may cause yourself problems.
>
> The problem you experienced is improper installation technique, not
> improper wire. Just don't tighten the screw terminals like a gorilla,
> Barry.
Speak to other experienced installers. Screw terminals wired with solid wire have more problems
than terminals wired with stranded. Another factor is constant change of environment with
heating, cooling and humidity, even frost on occassion at window contacts.
Wire within walls is pulled on many installs. Stranded wire is flexible.
If there is no issue supporting stranded wire over solid as you may suggest, why, then, do most of
the major alarm training classes support the use of stranded?
Solid wire is cheaper and easier to work with. Some companies got into the habit of using solid
for this reason. Those of us that have 30 plus years experience in the industry know that
stranded should be used on burglar alarm circuits.
> High current mends nothing, sir. Higher current only tends to cause
> heat and contributes to breakdown of materials. But the current in
> most security, telecom and data apps is miniscule. In any case, none
> of the 6-51 VDC current tends to "mend" broken wires.
Minor separations that we refer to as "swingers" in the industry will tend to cause false alarms.
In other applications, such as phone service, the higher currents can handle the minor
separation. But even phone lines can be susceptable. If too many of these minor separations or
high resistive connections are on the line, noise develops on phone calls. How does the phone
company handle it? Why they pump high voltage and current down the line. It either fixes (or
welds if I can use the term) or blows out the weak connection.
We also practiced this in large foiled circuits. Place high voltage down the line and the swinger
either mends or the circuit blows open so you can find the problem.
> To mend them you'd have to either solder them or heat the copper to the point of
> melting it together. That procedure is considered a safety hazard when
> applied to in-place wiring in a residence. ;)
Please tell me more. I didn't realize that soldering is a safety hazard when applied to in place
wiring in a residence. I better inform the some 13,000 installers across the country that they
are practicing an unsafe proceedure. Or is that only when using a blow torch.
> This is not an issue. If you tighten the crew terminals with an air
> hammer it might be a problem though.
Again, using only standard tightening pressure will tension the wire to produce some problems
maybe not now but in the future when sunlight, freezing weather, window sweating etc takes its
toll.
> I'm not sure which installers you spoke to. But the vast majority of
> alarm and communications techs NEVER use stranded wire. I've been
> doing this for many years.
Now here we have a big disagreement. I contend that the vast majority of alarm techs never use
solid wire. You are including communications techs. Maybe your sampling more communications than
alarm. In fact, communications will always use solid because its a known fact to communications
professionals that stranded wire causes phone line noise. I therefore believe you are hanging out
with more phone company people than alarm installers.
> No, Barry. One chooses solid wire because it's the right kind to use.
> One avoids stranded wire because it adds much unnecessary labor,
> requires tinning and lugging, tends to cause shorts and did I mention
> it's not the right wire to use?
No, Bob, stranded is the correct wire to use on burglar alarm circuitry and most of the training
material and courses available will support me on that.
David Lesher
Barry May <ba...@security-zone.com> writes:
[I do wish you would tame your line-wrap to <80 characters...]
>Speak to other experienced installers. Screw terminals wired with solid wire h
>than terminals wired with stranded. Another factor is constant change of envir
>heating, cooling and humidity, even frost on occassion at window contacts.
Yet Bell installed MILLIONS of jacks with solid wire and screw
terminals. And they had entire labs figuring out MTBF, installation
cost, etc; they built phones {500 set} with planned 20+ year
lifetimes....
What did Ma know about screw terms the alarm industry can not copy?
Bell also pioneered "sealing current" on loops. They found a low
level DC current would 'heal' minute breaks at connections. And I
note the alarm industry also does; they just call it "supervision"
or "N/C contacts..."
Robert L Bass
>> I guess every single phone data, CTAV connector in the world is doomed
>> then. Barry, you are completely wrong. The fact is a properly stripped
>> cable (solid copper wire as is used throughout the industry of course)
>> will last for decades without problams. However, if you turn the
>> screws down with a torque wrench you may cause yourself problems.
>>
>> The problem you experienced is improper installation technique, not
>> improper wire. Just don't tighten the screw terminals like a gorilla,
>> Barry.
>
I TEACH installers! You are wrong, sir. You can claim all kinds of
things about so-called self mending wire, "almost" breaks, etc. But
the simple fact of the matter is stranded wire is non-standard. The
accepted practice, industry-wide, is to use solid wire for in-wall
cabling and stranded wire only for flexible patch cords.
Wire in the wall and inside the alarm control panel does not
"micro-flex" or otherwise degrade with time (at least not within a
30-40 years). If your wires break off when you put them under the
screw terminals it is because you are either not stripping them
correctly or grossly over-tightening the screw terminals.
There is absolutely no difference in the current carrying capacity of
stranded and solid wire. Surface topology of the conductor does effect
waveform performance in the gigahertz range (microwave and up), but
this is irrelevant to 12VDC "on/off" circuits used in burglar alarm
circuits.
There is no tendency of wire to "self mend" at any of the voltages in
use by data, phone and alarm equipment.
> Screw terminals wired with solid wire have more problems
>than terminals wired with stranded. Another factor is constant change of environment with
>heating, cooling and humidity, even frost on occassion at window contacts.
Improper installer technique will give you problems. Learn the very
simple skill of stripping wires without nicking the conductor. This is
the first thing a newbie tech needs to master. Then learn not to
over-tighten or otherwise physically abuse the equipment during the
installation. Using the wrong wire is not a substitute for using
proper technique.
>Wire within walls is pulled on many installs. Stranded wire is flexible.
Wire within walls is always pulled. Don't use a come along to pull
22-guage wire. Don't drill 20 holes and pull the entire length of
cable through them all. Pull through 3-4 holes in a straight row. Then
feed the wire through the next 3-4 holes and so forth until you reach
the panel.
>If there is no issue supporting stranded wire over solid as you may suggest, why, then, do most of
>the major alarm training classes support the use of stranded?
I took a "major" alarm training course -- NBFAA's tech training. I
take seminars all the time. I study every book and every manual I can
get my hands on. That is how you stay on top of the technology.
I also read the NEC, UL and all the NFPA and other standards each time
thgey are updated. NOWHERE does it recommend stranded wire over solid
in permanent, in-wall burglar alarm circuits.
>Solid wire is cheaper and easier to work with. Some companies got into the habit of using solid
>for this reason. Those of us that have 30 plus years experience in the industry know that
>stranded should be used on burglar alarm circuits.
I hot into the habit of using the best (and often the most expensive)
equipment I could get my hands on. I have always done so. The
insinuation that everyone who doesn't follow your non-standard wiring
technique is somehow short-changing their clients is not only
ludicrous. It is patently offensive.
>> High current mends nothing, sir. Higher current only tends to cause
>> heat and contributes to breakdown of materials. But the current in
>> most security, telecom and data apps is miniscule. In any case, none
>> of the 6-51 VDC current tends to "mend" broken wires.
>
>Minor separations that we refer to as "swingers" in the industry will tend to cause false alarms.
>In other applications, such as phone service, the higher currents can handle the minor
>separation. But even phone lines can be susceptable. If too many of these minor separations or
>high resistive connections are on the line, noise develops on phone calls. How does the phone
>company handle it? Why they pump high voltage and current down the line. It either fixes (or
>welds if I can use the term) or blows out the weak connection.
Wrong again. Minor separations of phone circuits are just as much of a
nuisance as alarm "swingers" resulting in intermittent phone service.
But this is never the problem. The biggest intermittent problem on
phone circuits is associated with water incursion to the outside
cables.
Higher current DOES NOT handle separateion. When there is separation
there is NO CURRENT! And when the phone is off-hook the typical line
has only about 6 volts. Higher voltage (not current, which is measured
in Amps) may bridge a gap in the wire. But the voltages used in common
communications circuits can not jump even a millimeter gap.
High resistance connections are not caused by the type of conductor.
They are caused by loose terminals and/or corrosion. Any copper or
aluminum conductor can develop corrosion. Proper installer technique
will provide a gas-tight connection so that this is not a problem.
The phone company does not run "high current" down the line. The
current is a factor of voltage and resistance.
>We also practiced this in large foiled circuits. Place high voltage down the line and the swinger
>either mends or the circuit blows open so you can find the problem.
>
>> To mend them you'd have to either solder them or heat the copper to the point of
>> melting it together. That procedure is considered a safety hazard when
>> applied to in-place wiring in a residence. ;)
>
>Please tell me more. I didn't realize that soldering is a safety hazard when applied to in place
>wiring in a residence. I better inform the some 13,000 installers across the country that they
>are practicing an unsafe proceedure. Or is that only when using a blow torch.
>
>> This is not an issue. If you tighten the crew terminals with an air
>> hammer it might be a problem though.
>
>Again, using only standard tightening pressure will tension the wire to produce some problems
>maybe not now but in the future when sunlight, freezing weather, window sweating etc takes its
>toll.
>
>> I'm not sure which installers you spoke to. But the vast majority of
>> alarm and communications techs NEVER use stranded wire. I've been
>> doing this for many years.
>
>Now here we have a big disagreement. I contend that the vast majority of alarm techs never use
>solid wire. You are including communications techs. Maybe your sampling more communications than
>alarm. In fact, communications will always use solid because its a known fact to communications
>professionals that stranded wire causes phone line noise. I therefore believe you are hanging out
>with more phone company people than alarm installers.
Allow me to clarify this. The vast majority of ALARM TECHS don't use
stranded wire for in-wall, permanent wiring. One other thing, Barry. I
don't "hang out" with telco techs. I sell, install, service and
monitor alarms. I own an alarm business, not a phone company.
>> No, Barry. One chooses solid wire because it's the right kind to use.
>> One avoids stranded wire because it adds much unnecessary labor,
>> requires tinning and lugging, tends to cause shorts and did I mention
>> it's not the right wire to use?
>
>No, Bob, stranded is the correct wire to use on burglar alarm circuitry and most of the training
>material and courses available will support me on that.
Not in this lifetime they won't.
Marlin Jones
I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree here. I don't see the
likelihood of a "particle break" give the wire is stripped properly and
the terminal screw is tightened correctly. And given a screw type
terminal there is a much higher chance of shorts with stranded wire
unless you tin the end, which I doubt many installers take the time to
do.
And even if this is the issue that you think it is, the whole problem
can be avoided by moving from rotary type screw terminal strips to
compression type terminal strips. In this case there is absolutely no
rotary force applied to the wire and the whole issue goes away... Or, I
suppose you could use crimp connectors on the wire rather than wrapping
it around the screw and avoid the problem as well.
> I should refer to installation practices. The tightening of wire on a screw terminal can
> produce a particle break. Its this particle break that causes the problem. Sometimes it may
> take years sometimes its an immediate problem. Turning the screw on a terminal will pull the
> wire clockwise and tension the wire.
> > I guess that I shouldn't note that the microprocessor has solid wire
> > (gold bond wires) connecting it to the outside world? :-)
>
> Those are on a board and either soldered or ultrasonically mended. I experimented in college
> with producing circuits. It was fun making those connections under a microscope. BTW, some
> of those connections are aluminum and copper. Those connections are on a ridged background
> with no tension of screw terminals that we work with in the real world.
I'd like to see screws on a 200 um pitch! I know the situation is not
analogus, which is why I put in the smiley. The bond wires on not
generally on the PCB though (unless it's COB) but between the chip and
it's lead frame.
> > I guess my basic problem is that (assuming that the wire doesn't flex) I
> > don't see the advantage of stranded for this application. I've also
> > seen _very_ large numbers of wires used for RS-232 connections that used
> > standard 24 ga. solid wire exactly like the phone company does. (I'm
> > talking thousands and thousands of punch block connections.) And RS-232
> > has pretty similar levels to what alarm systems use...
>
> How many are on screw terminals?
Probably almost zero. My point was that these connections are low
current, low voltage. So if there was any resistance due to nicked
wires, etc. they could not "heal" due to your proposed current
mechanism.
>
> I spoke to other installers. They seem to agree with me and provided other reasons. When
> pulling stranded wire, there is more give and less problems with breakage. Wires in walls
> also tend to become brittle and crack, thus producing some of the problems I referred to.
> One installer said he replaced every wire in one particular house because of so many
> problem. Many of the courses (NY licensing course is one) suggest that best results are
> obtained from stranded wire. It is also suggested that stranded has more resistance to RFI,
> a big problem with burglar alarms.
I agree with you 100% on the pulling. One could argue that the
installer shouldn't pull so hard, but I've been there myself and... :-)
I don't believe that wires get brittle and crack. If that was true our
AC wiring would crack, the phone wires would crack, and our Cu water
pipes would crack. I do believe that insulation gets brittle and
cracks, but that is independent of the wire inside the insulation.
I'm afraid that whoever told you stranded wire has more resistance to
RFI is talking through their nose. If you said twisted pair I'd agree
with you, but not just stranded vs. solid.
Marlin Jones
add a j after the m in m...@cup.hp.com to reply
Robert Dolph
I totally agree, it is how you strip solid wire that can give you a problem. If you use a
non-knick technique that wire should last forever as long as you are not swinging on it every day.
Bob Dolph
Jim St. John
David Lesher wrote in message ...
>br...@karas.com.delthis writes:
>
>
>>Depending on the voltage (DC or AC) and a few other factors... About
>>80% of the current flows on the outer 'skin' of the conductor.
>>Stranded wire has more 'skin' thus allowing greater current flow.
>
>Err... Skin effect is a non-player at anything below microwave
>frequencies. Do the math & you'll see.....
>
Actually these are two very common misconceptions. Stranded wire does not
have significantly greater surface area than solid wire. Since the strands
are in physical contact with each other, stranded wire doesn't act any
different, electrically, than solid wire of the same cross-sectional area.
Also, skin effect can be quite significant even at very low frequencies.
Skin effect at 60hz is a very real concern for power companies, that's why
they will use conductors made of a steel core with a copper outer layer, the
steel provides strength, the current flows primarily in the copper.
-jim-
aa...@_no.spam.deltanet.com
In <35530D09...@security-zone.com>, Barry May <ba...@security-zone.com> writes:
>
>Speak to other experienced installers. Screw terminals wired with solid wire have more problems
>than terminals wired with stranded. Another factor is constant change of environment with
>heating, cooling and humidity, even frost on occassion at window contacts.
You can speak to me, for instance. I've been doing this for over 25 years.
Solid wire works GREAT.
>
>Wire within walls is pulled on many installs. Stranded wire is flexible.
You don't need the flexibility provided by stranded wire when you're
installing wire inside walls. You need stranded wire on door cords,
for example, when the flexing is going on continuously.
>
>If there is no issue supporting stranded wire over solid as you may suggest, why, then, do most of
>the major alarm training classes support the use of stranded?
>
>Solid wire is cheaper and easier to work with. Some companies got into the habit of using solid
>for this reason. Those of us that have 30 plus years experience in the industry know that
>stranded should be used on burglar alarm circuits.
I posted this before; perhaps you didn't see it. The world's largest
alarm company, ADT, has ALWAYS used solid wire, except when
flexibility is an issue.
>
>
>We also practiced this in large foiled circuits. Place high voltage down the line and the swinger
>either mends or the circuit blows open so you can find the problem.
Zapping foil works because it's made of lead. You won't repair a bad
splice in copper wire by zapping it with 110. You might make it better
for a while, but you won't fix the problem.
>
>> To mend them you'd have to either solder them or heat the copper to the point of
>> melting it together. That procedure is considered a safety hazard when
>> applied to in-place wiring in a residence. ;)
>
>Please tell me more. I didn't realize that soldering is a safety hazard when applied to in place
>wiring in a residence. I better inform the some 13,000 installers across the country that they
>are practicing an unsafe proceedure. Or is that only when using a blow torch.
Surely you realize that RLB was making a wisecrack about heating the copper
wire sufficiently to melt the copper. The smiley-face was your first clue;
common sense was your second.
>
>Again, using only standard tightening pressure will tension the wire to produce some problems
>maybe not now but in the future when sunlight, freezing weather, window sweating etc takes its
>toll.
Complete nonsense. Properly installed connections using screw terminals
work just great, and in many cases, the integrity of the connection is
_better_ with solid wire, because often installers whack off half the
strands when they strip stranded wire.
>
>> I'm not sure which installers you spoke to. But the vast majority of
>> alarm and communications techs NEVER use stranded wire. I've been
>> doing this for many years.
>
>Now here we have a big disagreement. I contend that the vast majority of alarm techs never use
>solid wire.
I am afraid I have to agree with Barry here. The majority of small
installers I know use stranded wire. I think they're stupid for doing so,
but out here anyway, it does seem to be more common.
Solid wire works great, costs less, and pushes back into a hole much
better than stranded. Also, certain solderless connectors, such as
Scotchlocks, are only intended for use with solid wire.
aa...@_no.spam.deltanet.com
>Yet Bell installed MILLIONS of jacks with solid wire and screw
>terminals. And they had entire labs figuring out MTBF, installation
>cost, etc; they built phones {500 set} with planned 20+ year
>lifetimes....
Amen. OTOH, Bell routinely applied ringing voltage (90VAC) to
all the connections. The alarm industry often did this, many
years ago, with "direct wire" burglar alarm systems. Old-timers
will claim that did clean up some marginal circuits, at least temporarily.
>Bell also pioneered "sealing current" on loops. They found a low
>level DC current would 'heal' minute breaks at connections.
I like solid wire too, but can you provide some documentation to
establish the accuracy of this statement? Just asking, not arguing...
Jacob Ashbury
Boy this "wire-thread" is hot.
I like (and use when possible) solid wire because it's easier to stuff up an
access hole, beanie to a device, secure into a terminal (no 'invisible'
little strands poking where they don't belong) and most importantly either
complete or not complete. Too often are the times I have chased stranded
wire through an attic because some of the strands were either broken or cut
during installation or because someone threw a box of old Xmas things on
them. Or the apparently good install that produces continuos callbacks from
falsing when the wind blows or the heater is on because stranded wire was
really broken and still touching inside the sheathing.
Give me SC any day- whatever the true outer surface area calculates to.
Now if I was installing something that needed to move or flex, then stranded
would be the choice-
--
T.A.Y.S./Sun Alarm (Service technicians and installers)
Box 45
Arab, AL 35016
(256) 586-0918
ch...@mindsprings.com
Robert L Bass wrote in message <3553129c.58659655@news>...
Jacob Ashbury
Zip (2-con) stranded was big here for years. I think it was price.
SC 2-con is far better (for me)
On another wire note-
I just opened a box of 4-con, cut the sheathing the first time and a little
oily residue appeared. What is this?
I have several boxes that otherwise are identical, this oily wire is a
little strange.
--
T.A.Y.S./Sun Alarm (Service technicians and installers)
Box 45
Arab, AL 35016
(256) 586-0918
ch...@mindsprings.com
aa-2@_no.spam.deltanet.com wrote in message
<6j0llu$lrm$2...@news01.deltanet.com>...
>In <35530D09...@security-zone.com>, Barry May
<ba...@security-zone.com> writes:
>>
>>Speak to other experienced installers. Screw terminals wired with solid
wire have more problems
>>than terminals wired with stranded. Another factor is constant change of
environment with
>>heating, cooling and humidity, even frost on occassion at window contacts.
>
>You can speak to me, for instance. I've been doing this for over 25 years.
>Solid wire works GREAT.
>
>>
>>Wire within walls is pulled on many installs. Stranded wire is flexible.
>
>You don't need the flexibility provided by stranded wire when you're
>installing wire inside walls. You need stranded wire on door cords,
>for example, when the flexing is going on continuously.
>
>>
>>If there is no issue supporting stranded wire over solid as you may
suggest, why, then, do most of
>>the major alarm training classes support the use of stranded?
>>
>>Solid wire is cheaper and easier to work with. Some companies got into
the habit of using solid
>>for this reason. Those of us that have 30 plus years experience in the
industry know that
>>stranded should be used on burglar alarm circuits.
>
>I posted this before; perhaps you didn't see it. The world's largest
>alarm company, ADT, has ALWAYS used solid wire, except when
>flexibility is an issue.
>
>>
>>
>>We also practiced this in large foiled circuits. Place high voltage down
the line and the swinger
>>either mends or the circuit blows open so you can find the problem.
>
>Zapping foil works because it's made of lead. You won't repair a bad
>splice in copper wire by zapping it with 110. You might make it better
>for a while, but you won't fix the problem.
>
>>
>>> To mend them you'd have to either solder them or heat the copper to the
point of
>>> melting it together. That procedure is considered a safety hazard when
>>> applied to in-place wiring in a residence. ;)
>>
>>Please tell me more. I didn't realize that soldering is a safety hazard
when applied to in place
>>wiring in a residence. I better inform the some 13,000 installers across
the country that they
>>are practicing an unsafe proceedure. Or is that only when using a blow
torch.
>
>Surely you realize that RLB was making a wisecrack about heating the copper
>wire sufficiently to melt the copper. The smiley-face was your first clue;
>common sense was your second.
>
>>
>>Again, using only standard tightening pressure will tension the wire to
produce some problems
>>maybe not now but in the future when sunlight, freezing weather, window
sweating etc takes its
>>toll.
>
>Complete nonsense. Properly installed connections using screw terminals
>work just great, and in many cases, the integrity of the connection is
>_better_ with solid wire, because often installers whack off half the
>strands when they strip stranded wire.
>
>>
>>> I'm not sure which installers you spoke to. But the vast majority of
>>> alarm and communications techs NEVER use stranded wire. I've been
>>> doing this for many years.
>>
>>Now here we have a big disagreement. I contend that the vast majority of
alarm techs never use
>>solid wire.
>
Barry May
> I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree here. I don't see the
> likelihood of a "particle break" give the wire is stripped properly and
> the terminal screw is tightened correctly. And given a screw type
> terminal there is a much higher chance of shorts with stranded wire
> unless you tin the end, which I doubt many installers take the time to
> do.
>
> And even if this is the issue that you think it is, the whole problem
> can be avoided by moving from rotary type screw terminal strips to
> compression type terminal strips. In this case there is absolutely no
> rotary force applied to the wire and the whole issue goes away... Or, I
> suppose you could use crimp connectors on the wire rather than wrapping
> it around the screw and avoid the problem as well.
I would like to see more compression type terminals as well.I have checked with more of my
customers as to what wire they do use. I am seeing more companies switch over to solid for speed
and cost. I still have to stand on the use of stranded though.
> I agree with you 100% on the pulling. One could argue that the
> installer shouldn't pull so hard, but I've been there myself and... :-)
I guess we all have. Even pulling wire at normal pressures could cause problems if the wire is
kinked.
> I don't believe that wires get brittle and crack. If that was true our
> AC wiring would crack, the phone wires would crack, and our Cu water
> pipes would crack. I do believe that insulation gets brittle and
> cracks, but that is independent of the wire inside the insulation.
I also find it hard to believe but that's what was reported to me. I would believe that in this
particular case the installer had damaged the wire on installation or the cable was defective in
the first place.
> I'm afraid that whoever told you stranded wire has more resistance to
> RFI is talking through their nose. If you said twisted pair I'd agree
> with you, but not just stranded vs. solid.
Since I'm an RF tech as well as a sales rep, I agree about the twisted. Something in the back of
my mind also tells me that the stranded may also be somewhat resistive to RFI but the jury is out
until I can get some reference on the subject. I do know one class is teaching that as fact.
Barry May
> I posted this before; perhaps you didn't see it. The world's largest
> alarm company, ADT, has ALWAYS used solid wire, except when
> flexibility is an issue.
I did see it. I also stated that I have checked with a number of alarm companies (large ones) and
found some are shifting to solid for ease of installation and cost.
> Zapping foil works because it's made of lead. You won't repair a bad
> splice in copper wire by zapping it with 110. You might make it better
> for a while, but you won't fix the problem.
On a weak wire connection, it would tend to blow out the high resistive part making it easier to find
the problem. In this day of mega zoning, the use of high voltage zaps is pretty much outdated.
> Surely you realize that RLB was making a wisecrack about heating the copper
> wire sufficiently to melt the copper. The smiley-face was your first clue;
> common sense was your second.
Saw it, thought he was gloating. d :-)
> I am afraid I have to agree with Barry here. The majority of small
> installers I know use stranded wire. I think they're stupid for doing so,
> but out here anyway, it does seem to be more common.
>
> Solid wire works great, costs less, and pushes back into a hole much
> better than stranded. Also, certain solderless connectors, such as
> Scotchlocks, are only intended for use with solid wire.
Hey, we can start all over and compare Scotchlocks against solder and tape :-)
Barry May
Security Consultant
AES IntelliNet Rep.
ba...@security-zone.com
Barry May
> Boy this "wire-thread" is hot.
> I like (and use when possible) solid wire because it's easier to stuff up an
> access hole, beanie to a device, secure into a terminal (no 'invisible'
> little strands poking where they don't belong) and most importantly either
> complete or not complete. Too often are the times I have chased stranded
> wire through an attic because some of the strands were either broken or cut
> during installation or because someone threw a box of old Xmas things on
> them. Or the apparently good install that produces continuos callbacks from
> falsing when the wind blows or the heater is on because stranded wire was
> really broken and still touching inside the sheathing.
> Give me SC any day- whatever the true outer surface area calculates to.
> Now if I was installing something that needed to move or flex, then stranded
> would be the choice-
Gee, thats what I normally say happens to solid. It might be better to staple
those wires up or run them around the edge of the attic be they stranded or
solid. Placing wires where they are bound to be abused is asking for call
backs. ;-]
Barry May
Security Consultant
AES IntelliNet Rep
Robert L Bass
>> Boy this "wire-thread" is hot.
>> I like (and use when possible) solid wire because it's easier to stuff up an
>> access hole, beanie to a device, secure into a terminal (no 'invisible'
>> little strands poking where they don't belong) and most importantly either
>> complete or not complete. Too often are the times I have chased stranded
>> wire through an attic because some of the strands were either broken or cut
>> during installation or because someone threw a box of old Xmas things on
>> them. Or the apparently good install that produces continuos callbacks from
>> falsing when the wind blows or the heater is on because stranded wire was
>> really broken and still touching inside the sheathing.
>> Give me SC any day- whatever the true outer surface area calculates to.
>> Now if I was installing something that needed to move or flex, then stranded
>> would be the choice-
>
>those wires up or run them around the edge of the attic be they stranded or
>solid. Placing wires where they are bound to be abused is asking for call
>backs. ;-]
On this we agree at least partly, Barry. Keeping your work out of the
path of hapless feet will preserve your efforts.
We normally don't use a lot of staples, though. In an atticv or
basement I like to snap a chalk line from one ent to the other. Then
we place a drive ring (nail with a metal loop on it) in every 2nd or
3rd overhead joist (basement) or rafter (basement). The wires get a
staple just before joining the "chase" that the drive rings create.
When all is finished we gently snug the wires to take out any slack
and apply a few cable ties around the bunch. The result is a neat
finish and wires are out of harm's way. Note that in many areas the
AHJ will require wires running across joists be protected from
physical damage. A row of 2x3s can run on either side of the "chase"
and, where required, a bottom plate can be tacked or screwed below it.
This last has only been requested once that I know of.
Barry May
I like the drive ring touch. Used it myself. I think I still have a couple of
boxes I got direct from Ademco over 15 years ago.
Barry May
Robert L Bass wrote:
> >> Boy this "wire-thread" is hot.
> >> I like (and use when possible) solid wire because it's easier to stuff up an
> >> access hole, beanie to a device, secure into a terminal (no 'invisible'
> >> little strands poking where they don't belong) and most importantly either
> >> complete or not complete. Too often are the times I have chased stranded
> >> wire through an attic because some of the strands were either broken or cut
> >> during installation or because someone threw a box of old Xmas things on
> >> them. Or the apparently good install that produces continuos callbacks from
> >> falsing when the wind blows or the heater is on because stranded wire was
> >> really broken and still touching inside the sheathing.
> >> Give me SC any day- whatever the true outer surface area calculates to.
> >> Now if I was installing something that needed to move or flex, then stranded
> >> would be the choice-
> >
> >Gee, thats what I normally say happens to solid. It might be better to staple
> >those wires up or run them around the edge of the attic be they stranded or
> >solid. Placing wires where they are bound to be abused is asking for call
> >backs. ;-]
>
> On this we agree at least partly, Barry. Keeping your work out of the
> path of hapless feet will preserve your efforts.
>
> We normally don't use a lot of staples, though. In an atticv or
> basement I like to snap a chalk line from one ent to the other. Then
> we place a drive ring (nail with a metal loop on it) in every 2nd or
> 3rd overhead joist (basement) or rafter (basement). The wires get a
> staple just before joining the "chase" that the drive rings create.
>
> When all is finished we gently snug the wires to take out any slack
> and apply a few cable ties around the bunch. The result is a neat
> finish and wires are out of harm's way. Note that in many areas the
> AHJ will require wires running across joists be protected from
> physical damage. A row of 2x3s can run on either side of the "chase"
> and, where required, a bottom plate can be tacked or screwed below it.
> This last has only been requested once that I know of.
>
aa...@_no.spam.deltanet.com
In <35568F5...@security-zone.com>, Barry May <ba...@security-zone.com> writes:
>I like the drive ring touch. Used it myself. I think I still have a couple of
>boxes I got direct from Ademco over 15 years ago.
Drive rings are still in widespread use, especially in industrial installations.
They are by no means obsolete.
Marlin Jones
> > I'm afraid that whoever told you stranded wire has more resistance to
> > RFI is talking through their nose. If you said twisted pair I'd agree
> > with you, but not just stranded vs. solid.
>
> Since I'm an RF tech as well as a sales rep, I agree about the twisted. Something in the back of
> my mind also tells me that the stranded may also be somewhat resistive to RFI but the jury is out
> until I can get some reference on the subject. I do know one class is teaching that as fact.
I'd ask for my money back if I took that class. I don't think waving
one's credentials around is particularly useful, as even people with
great pedigrees make mistakes. Some more than others. :-) And heck,
even I made a mistake once. :-) But, for what it's worth, I've worked
as an R&D manager (designing ICs) for the last 4 years, before that I
was a EE designing ICs and PCBs for 11 years, and before I got my BSEE I
was a technician (digital and analog) for 5 years. And if it matters,
my current chip will operate well above the FM bands and I've got an
amatuer radio license (KC6YTA) as well. And I still make mistakes, but
not this time. :-)
Marlin Jones
Jim Sokoloff
aa-2@_no.spam.deltanet.com writes:
> Also, certain solderless connectors, such as Scotchlocks, are only
> intended for use with solid wire.
Really? Even the "bigger" ones (for 14-18 gauge wire). I don't recall
seeing this caution on the packaging, and have more than a handful
pressed into use with stranded in automobiles with no ill effects
apparent. (Not that I'm extrapolating from a small dataset to derive a
general rule, but I didn't think this was contrary to the
instructions...)
---Jim
Jim Sokoloff
Robert Dolph <bdo...@sprynet.com> writes:
I make it a policy to only swing on mine once a week; no more... :-)
---Jim
aa...@_no.spam.deltanet.com
The largest Scotchlocks I've used are the red ones. Agreed, it doesn't
say on the box not to use them on stranded wire, but I have seen that
in their literature. I've also disregarded those instructions, as you
have, and generally had no problems.
It does make sense that they weren't intended for stranded wire. Think
how they work: you have a spring-loaded "V" which you are forcing
wire into. The size of the V is dependent on the wire gauge. The
V's job is to scrape off any oxidation on the surface of the wire and
form a gas-tight seal, just like a telco punch block. If you use stranded
wire, there is no scraping effect, since the strands displace from a
round configuration. And there could easily be minimal spring tension
against the strands, again because they can move around. A single
solid conductor can't.
John Lundgren
aa-2@_no.spam.deltanet.com wrote:
And the ones I used were gel filled to displace water. The silicone
could cause the strands to be insulated.
I used to use mouse rubbers, the white thingies with the teeth inside
that you just put over the two wires and squeeze with a pliers. But I
found a few intermittent or opens in them, and I stay away from them
now. Most of those were installed by our contractors, who apparently
didn't squeeze them hard enough.
I have been using the AT&T/ Lucent 709-SD connectors for 24 gauge pairs,
but they can be squeezed a little bit wrong and not do a good job. I
like the skotchlok yellow ones, tho.
--
Please remove NO and SPAM from my email addr to reply.
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Pat Ford
John Lundgren <NOlundg...@mail.rancho.cc.ca.us> wrote in article
<355A07...@mail.rancho.cc.ca.us>...
> aa-2@_no.spam.deltanet.com wrote:
>
> > In <m1nemxz...@fardm2.boston.deshaw.com>, "Jim Sokoloff"
<soko...@tiac.net> writes:
> > >aa-2@_no.spam.deltanet.com writes:
>
> > >> Also, certain solderless connectors, such as Scotchlocks, are only
> > >> intended for use with solid wire.
>
> > >Really? Even the "bigger" ones (for 14-18 gauge wire). I don't recall
> > >seeing this caution on the packaging, and have more than a handful
> > >pressed into use with stranded in automobiles with no ill effects
> > >apparent. (Not that I'm extrapolating from a small dataset to derive a
> > >general rule, but I didn't think this was contrary to the
> > >instructions...)
>
> > It does make sense that they weren't intended for stranded wire. Think
> > how they work: you have a spring-loaded "V" which you are forcing
> > wire into. The size of the V is dependent on the wire gauge. The
hmm interesting, have you ever looked under the dash of your car the big3
(Gm, Ford, Dodge) use scotch locks alot there!! ( I tend to agree about
stranded wire, but someone who designs cars doesn't). you can even order
special marine grade ( US coast guard approved) one's. Both SAE and USCG
require stranded wire
Robert L Bass
>John Lundgren wrote
>hmm interesting, have you ever looked under the dash of your car the big3
>(Gm, Ford, Dodge) use scotch locks alot there!! ( I tend to agree about
>stranded wire, but someone who designs cars doesn't). you can even order
>require stranded wire
Marine apps and automotive apps are different from in-wall, structural
wiring. Vehicles (planes, boats, trains and cars) flex and vibrate
while in operation. In those environments stranded wire is
appropriate.
Permanent wire installed inside walls or threaded through joists and
rafters is most often solid wire. This is the preferred choice among
professional installers. Those who don't know any better sometimes
specify stranded for in-wall use in the mistaken assumption that is is
better.
Also, those who do not know how to properly and safely strip wire
rwithout damaging the conductor sometimes like using stranded wire.
Fortunately there is hope. Those of us who know how will gladly teach
the rest. :)
gregt...@mindspring.com
On Wed, 06 May 1998 02:49:02 GMT, elw...@cybercomm.net wrote:
I was very interested when I caught the subject header on this thread.
I too am seeking information on prewiring but this thread seems to
have strayed away from the real subject. I want to do my prewiring
and will probably hook most things up later (my house is being
constructed so I'm going to be a little short on cash for a while).
I'm having a hard time finding an information source on what I need to
put where. Here's what I think I understand.
Door and window sensors are 2 wire 22 gauge. Smoke detectors and
motion sensors are 4 wire. 22 gauge as well? Do the keypad need just
a 4 conductor wire. Should I put in a couple of single gang boxes for
these (are they single gang or do they not use these?). I take it
that you homerun all sensor, motion, smoke, and keypad wires to a
central location where the actual system will be? What kind of ac
power will the central system need? Is it hardwired? Also, what's a
good security system brand that is decently priced? Are there any
hardwire systems that offer some type of X10 communications?
Are there any pictoral descriptions of how the window/door sensor
wires should come out of the sheetrock? Do I have to get the
sheetrockers to drill a small hole and feed the wire through for me?
I hate to ask so many questions. My house will be in sheetrock phase
probably within the next week. I'm in a hurry to get as much done as
possible. If you could just direct me to an instructional website,
that would be great. Or if you don't mind...just fill me in.
Thanks,
Greg
gregt...@mindspring.com
>Call a local independant security installation company. If you cant
>get a recommendation from a friend or neighbor, call the better
>Business Bureau.
>
>Get a price for prewire initially and the cost to complete at a later
>date. Any reputable dealer will work with you in this manner. Prewire
>will cost approx. 1/3 of entire installation. All windows will be
>wired with concealed magnetic switches with wiring dropped to crawl or
>basement for later finish. Keypads can be prewired with wire left
>buried in sheetrock above lightswitch at entry door and bedroom for
>example. At least one infrared sensor should be installed for interior
>coverage on the main level. If you have 2nd floor windows accessible
>from a roofline, have magnetic contacts installed and prewired to
>attic. In fact, during new construction, its not that much more to
>prewire all 2nd floor windows. Another siggestion is to install a 2"
>PVC conduit from the basement to attic for future wire pulls.
>
>Please...do yourself a favor...consider independant companies over the
>nationals. The big boys generally are not interested in working with
>you in this piece meal fashion. You should be able to prewire a 2
>story colonial with all wiring in place and magnetic window switches
>as discussed above for $300-$500 depending on size of system.
>And be critical of "free" or low cost systems. They generally require
>an extended (3-5 yr) monitoring contract at an above market price.
>
>Code requires smoke detectors in all bedrooms, hallways (and not
>exceeding 10 feet from any bedroom door) , and on each level including
>basement. If you are not going to install complete integrated security
>system immediately, then let the electrician provide the standard AC
>smokes.
>
>BTW, I own a security company with a 22 yr track record in NJ.
>
Dan Butterfield
gregt...@mindspring.com wrote in message
<355dc3cd...@news.mindspring.com>...
>On Wed, 06 May 1998 02:49:02 GMT, elw...@cybercomm.net wrote:
>
>Door and window sensors are 2 wire 22 gauge. Smoke detectors and
>motion sensors are 4 wire. 22 gauge as well? Do the keypad need just
>a 4 conductor wire. Should I put in a couple of single gang boxes for
>these (are they single gang or do they not use these?). I take it
>that you homerun all sensor, motion, smoke, and keypad wires to a
>central location where the actual system will be? What kind of ac
>power will the central system need? Is it hardwired? Also, what's a
>good security system brand that is decently priced? Are there any
>hardwire systems that offer some type of X10 communications?
>Are there any pictoral descriptions of how the window/door sensor
>wires should come out of the sheetrock? Do I have to get the
>sheetrockers to drill a small hole and feed the wire through for me?
I've heard it suggested you run 4-wire cable for door and window sensors
instead of 2-wire, to give you extra wires in case you get a nick or short
in one of the wires. The standard (at least what Brinks put into my house)
keypad wiring is 4-wire. However, I put in a security system with a speaker
and microphone (for listening into the house via phone) in the keypad; this
required an additional 16 gauge 2-wire speaker cable, and a shielded twisted
pair cable for the microphone to each keypad location.
Most keypads I've seen are either surface mounted or come with their own
mounting bracket, so do not need a gang box in the wall. In my prewire
installation, the installer just left the wire hanging out of the wall; the
building put a blank plate over this wire for looks. Of course, when the
surface mounted components (like smoke or motion detectors) and in-wall
components (like alarm sounder and keypads) are in, you no longer see these.
Yes, all the sensors are home run to where you want your control panel. You
should also run wires from there to where the incoming phone line in your
house is, so you can patch into that. Additonally, you should run a heavy
gauge wire to where your earth ground is, to ground your control panel.
There should be a standard electrical socket next to your control panel
location; you would plug your panel into that via a wall-wart transformer
that you screw into the center screw of the socket. I would make sure you
have at least two outlets on this socket, in case you want to do X-10
control from this same location.
I have an HAI automation system / security controller
http://www.homeauto.com/ ) that is a full featured security system plus a
very capable X-10 controller. It also can control HAI electronic
thermostats (if you want to do this, run four conductor wires from your
thermostat locations to your security control panel location in addition to
the normal thermostat control wires).
As for door and window sensor locations, in my case neither came through the
sheetrock. They both come out of the frames of either the door or window.
However, I didn't install them, just used what was there, so perhaps
somebody else can address your question of more details on this...