Is NCR -- Noth Coast Rocketry -- in trouble?
Peter J
NCR from RMR. Why?
--Peter
Bob Kaplow
> I'm hearing doom and gloom forecasts for the future of
> NCR from RMR. Why?
Here's the information as best as I can piece it all together:
Along time ago, at a RCHTA show in 1991, Estes announced "Coming this spring
E-F-G rockets". Scott Dixon of Vulcan came in as a motor consultant.
Reference the staged "video tape incident" from an NFPA meeting. At NARAM-34
in 1992 they demoed a Saturn-IB with a prototype G motor that was nothing
more than a hand built enerjet class motor of the type that had occasionally
been built in Penrose through the 80s. Product never made it out the door.
Many possible reasons. One being no one in Penrose really had LMR/HPR
experience.
Meanwhile NCR (Matt Steele, Chris Pearson, Dan Kafun, and perhaps others)
had been producing LMR and HPR kits for years. They initially OEMed mtors
from Aerotech. Matt had got their first KP motors certified (I have some in
my collection), but they never really went into production because of the
following.
Somehow Estes and NCR got together. It apparantly wasn't a sale of NCR to
estes, but a licensing agreement, with royalties on anything Matt touched.
The old NCR motors were scrapped and redesigned for mass production. The
motor you see today is more like the Vulcan product than anything Matt had
designed. Product finally started shipping about 2 years ago, more than 5
years behind schedule. Expansion of the initial line is planned, with a
F62-9, G72, and new kits.
Then something goes wrong... For whatever reason, Matt seperates from Estes.
I'm not sure if he was fired, asked to resign, or just quit. Matt has
claimed that estes still owes him royalties on NCR product, and will
continue to do so as long as it is on the market. Matt is taking legal
action to collect.
The speculation is that no matter how much NCR may be bringing in to estes,
that barry tunick would rather cut off his <censored> than to continue to
pay Matt royalties. Even if that means killing a successful NCR startup.
Maybe NCR isn't making the money they thought it would. Maybe NCR just
doesn't fit into estes Y2K mass market "Ready To Fail" product line. They
seem to be discontinuing anything that required more than 10 minutes of
skill free assembly. It may be something else, like the BATF (quite possibly
related to the G motor delay). We may never know.
All I can say for sure is that every hobby shop I know that had F62 motors
is out of them and has had them on order for months. many of them have
plenty of kits, but who is going to buy a kit when you can't get motors to
fly them with?
It makes me wonder what the ratio of NCR kits to motors produced was. It
certainly seems like there are more kits out there than motors. Good news
for Aerotech? Or will they too find a way to fail in the face of oportunity?
Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Ctrl-Alt-Del"
Kaplow Klips: http://members.aol.com/myhprcato/KaplowKlips.html
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SDavis4893
is available.
as far as:
"Maybe NCR isn't making the money they thought it would. Maybe NCR just doesn't
fit into estes Y2K mass market "Ready To Fail" product line. They seem to be
discontinuing anything that required more than 10 minutes of skill free
assembly."
maybe that's what we need, a "ready to fly" 5" to 12" diameter plastic
injection molded rocket made in tiwan. Perhaps they could come pre-loded with
the engine and 'chute too!. Sure would take a lot of the effort away from
builing them (NOT!)
A RTF Cert level 3 rocket from estes.... comming soon to Toys-R-Us.
my 2 cents worth.
Bbobrocket
From: kapl...@eisner.decus.org (Bob Kaplow)
Date: Sat, 24 July 1999 10:50 AM
(Snip)
>All I can say for sure is that every hobby shop I know that had F62 motors
>is out of them and has had them on order for months. many of them have
>plenty of kits, but who is going to buy a kit when you can't get motors to
>fly them with?
Hey Bob, there are Aerotech motors that can be used for NCR kits:
Single use - F50, G80
Reloads 29/60 F62
29/40 - 120 F52
29/180 G75
Admittedly, not an overwhelming set of choices but not too bad.
Ballistic Bob
http://www.ballisticbob.com
CAStraka
>for Aerotech? Or will they too find a way to fail in the face of oportunity?
What's the current status of Aerotech? Ross of Magnum Hobbies casually
mentioned to me at NYPOWER that he was looking to purchase Aerotech.
Any other info, anybody??
Chuck "no, I'm not trying to start rumors" Straka
Peter J
Depressing -- I thought (think!) the NCR line shows a lot of
promise. I'm working on their Bomarc -- NOT a beginner
kit, requires patience -- which looks like it'll turn out nicely,
and I'm thinking about getting their Archer, perhaps others,
but if they go belly up . . . <sigh> Perhaps I should buy
that Archer now, before they do.
--Peter
Bob Kaplow <kapl...@eisner.decus.org> wrote in message
news:1999Jul24.105038.1@eisner...
> Maybe NCR isn't making the money they thought it would. Maybe NCR just
> doesn't fit into estes Y2K mass market "Ready To Fail" product line. They
> seem to be discontinuing anything that required more than 10 minutes of
> skill free assembly. It may be something else, like the BATF (quite
possibly
> related to the G motor delay). We may never know.
>
> All I can say for sure is that every hobby shop I know that had F62 motors
> is out of them and has had them on order for months. many of them have
> plenty of kits, but who is going to buy a kit when you can't get motors to
> fly them with?
>
> It makes me wonder what the ratio of NCR kits to motors produced was. It
> certainly seems like there are more kits out there than motors. Good news
> for Aerotech? Or will they too find a way to fail in the face of
oportunity?
>
Bob Kaplow
> Depressing -- I thought (think!) the NCR line shows a lot of
> promise. I'm working on their Bomarc -- NOT a beginner
> kit, requires patience -- which looks like it'll turn out nicely,
> and I'm thinking about getting their Archer, perhaps others,
> but if they go belly up . . . <sigh> Perhaps I should buy
> that Archer now, before they do.
I was thinking about another Archer as well. I have an old NCR Archer that
is starting to get a bit ratty. But after a second thought, when you
consider the number of parts I wouldn't use, and what I have already, it
would be cheaper and easier to just clone one.
BTW, anyone building the Archer, I'd recommend instad of splicing the tube
parts together, to build the short section as a payload section. The only
thing you'll need to add is the bulkhead plate and screw eye. I've found the
Archer just a bit too big for one of my shipping boxes built stock. This mod
would allow it to fit easilly. Besides, the payload section makes the rocket
more versatile or allows for dual deployment in the future.
Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Ctrl-Alt-Del"
Kaplow Klips: http://members.aol.com/myhprcato/KaplowKlips.html
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Tim Van Milligan
> At NARAM-34
> in 1992 they demoed a Saturn-IB with a prototype G motor that was nothing
> more than a hand built enerjet class motor of the type that had occasionally
> been built in Penrose through the 80s. Product never made it out the door.
> Many possible reasons. One being no one in Penrose really had LMR/HPR
> experience.
The reason was internal politics. There were plenty of skilled people at
Estes at the time.
From a production standpoint, it was certainly possible to have the
motors shipping within a year of the announcement in 1991. But it was
politics that killed the project.
The problem with that one Saturn 1B flight was the delay snuffed out
after engine burnout. I can tell you that creating a delay that works
every time in composite motors is difficult. But all the other delays in
that batch of motors worked fine. That motor was make by Mike Dorfler,
and was the famous KP propellant that I still think is a good
alternative to AP formulas. It is cheap and really easy to make from a
production standpoint.
Tim Van Milligan
Former Estes employee