For Derek, Stoney and NS
myo...@my-deja.com
Nittatsu Shonin which spawned a response from Reginald Carpenter - see
way, way below (among others).
In the speech, which Nittatsu Shonin delivered to the attendees of the
Second General Danto Tozan, including over 300 of Nichiren Shoshu's then
600+ priests, he said, among other things:
"There are more than three hundred young priests here. Some of these
priests come from families of priests, some are from Hokkeko families,
but the majority are from families who were originally members of Soka
Gakkai. These priests have pointed out the Soka Gakkai's errors, and,
together with you, have formed the Danto in order to protect Nichiren
Shoshu. Such sincerity is profound. This I wish you to recognize,
because true Kosen-rufu must be accomplished based on the fundamental
spirit of Nichiren Shoshu."
"There are still some priests, however, who are seemingly unconcerned
that erroneous doctrines are being spread. They are, in any case,
priests within Nichiren Shoshu, and so, with forbearance, I am simply
protecting them. I hope you will understand this point, but that you
will continue, from this time onward, to pursue and refute erroneous
doctrines, thus protecting Kosen-rufu of the Daishonin's true teaching.
This is the very manifestation of sozoku itchi [oneness of priests and
lay believers]. I want you never to forget this."
....
"To regard the Dai-Gohonzon as the center, to focus our faith upon it,
to realize the condition of attainment of Buddhahood together with one
another, to bring this teaching to those who do not know if it,
assisting one another, and spreading Nichiren Daishonin's teaching into
the tens of thousands of years of Mappo, into the eternal future - these
things are Kosen-rufu. Thus, for the sake of Kosen-rufu, it is
disastrous that the Daishonin's teachings should be mistaken, even
slightly. From this time forward, I want those of you who have become
aware of such things, even a bit, to spread the true teaching toward
Kosen-rufu, without taking mistaken steps off the path of the
Daishonin's Buddhism, arm in arm with these young priests who are here
today."
[This is from a translation by Rev. Kando Tono. If anyone is interested,
I can furnish a complete translation, as well as a copy of the original
Japanese to anyone who sends me a snail mail address.]
In contrast, I quoted a speech given by Rev. Abe on November 26, 1980
"The standard for judging good and bad in Nichiren Daishonin's Buddhism
is whether one faithfully follows, or slanderously opposes the supreme
Law, the Myoho-renge-kyo, to which the Buddha was enlightened, and the
entity of the Law which was transmitted to Bodhisattva Jogyo. To oppose
the above is regarded as a great slander and a great evil. Insofar as
the Soka Gakkai is concerned, although it slightly departed from the
orthodoxy, it always remained a lay organization of Nichiren Shoshu and
never forsook faith in the Gohonzon. Rather, correcting its mistakes,
the Soka Gakkai has pledged to give even greater protection and service
to the priesthood. Therefore, there is no reason whatsoever to call its
past actions a grave slander. The priests and lay believers who share
faith in the Gohonzon should not criticize or attack the Soka Gakkai. If
they do so, they commit a serious slander by acting against the
Daishonin's precept of itai doshin and thus are slandering the Gohonzon
as a result."
[This translation is from "Sermons by Nikken Shonin", published by
Nichiren Shoshu Temple]
Perhaps because the discrepancies between the two speeches are so
obvious (all the more so when you know that, once ascending to the High
Priesthood, Rev. Abe not only forbade the Danto to meet at Taisekiji,
but forbade members of the priesthood from attending their meeting when
its location was moved to Tokyo), Derek posted two quotes from Nittatsu
Shonin in an effort to prove that he, too asked the priesthood to end
their criticism of the Gakkai. One was published in a February, 1979
World Tribune (shortly after Nittatsu Shonin had addressed the Danto);
the other is of an unspecified date. The February 1979 date would give
the appearance that Nittatsu Shonin changed his guidance between January
and February, based, perhaps, on Soka Gakkai's admissions of wrongdoing,
repentance for their errors, and resolution to go forward. In fact, it
was exactly the opposite.
As the Chief was kind enough to point out, the speech that Derek quoted
was, in fact, delivered in November 1978. Checking the chronology
provided by Rev. Kando Tono in his pamphlet, "... the background,
meaning, content and spirit ...", we find that November 1978 was the
time when some 630 priests, almost the entire priesthood came to
Taisekiji to accept Soka Gakkai's apology for their past slanders. To
their dismay, they found the meeting to be a commemorative leaders
meeting with only the vaguest of apologies, not at all what was
expected. Immediately after that meeting, Nittatsu Shonin called his own
meeting with the priests who had attended and said, "If the Soka Gakkai
makes the same mistakes as were made in the past, especially over the
last two or three years, then we should unite in one mind, hand in hand,
and aggressively reveal their mistakes."
It was in this context that, almost three months later, Nittatsu Shonin
made his remarks to the General Danto Tozan. Two months later, at a
meeting of the priesthood, the said,
"The mistakes perpetuated on this Buddhism, which have accumulated over
the last 16 or 17 years, cannot be corrected overnight. Therefore, today
we still continue to witness conflict between the priesthood and the
laity."
"All of you, as priests, must be resolute and point out their (the Soka
Gakkai's) mistakes; even if they are the President or Vice President.
Please be fully aware that you are not Nichiren Shoshu priests unless
you strictly call attention to their mistakes."
[The material in Rev. Tono's pamphlet is far too much to include in a
post, but, again, I will be happy to furnish a copy to anyone providing
me with a snail mail address.]
The addresses given by Nittatsu Shonin in January of 1979 (to the Danto)
and March of 1979 (to the priesthood) are, as far as I know, the last
major addresses given in his lifetime. This becomes an issue because of
Rev. Abe's claim that his policies were an extension of Nittatsu
Shonin's. The record does not appear to be consistent with that claim.
In trying to support this claim, Derek quoted the November 1978 speech,
but failed to understand or describe the context in which it was given,
or its relationship to subsequent speeches. We have yet to identify the
time and circumstances of the other speech. (I leave that to Derek and
Stoney.) It is, of course, telling that the Soka Gakkai waited until
February (when things had gotten worse) to publish a speech that cast
them in a relatively favorable light. It is also telling, however, that
Nichiren Shoshu has chosen to publicize this speech, prepared and
delivered in anticipation of an apology that ultimately underwhelmed.
Nichiren Shoshu is left in the difficult position of trying to buttress
their opposition to the Soka Gakkai with speeches by Nittatsu Shonin
(indicating that the Gakkai's is nothing new), while, at the same time,
defending Rev. Abe's embrace of the Soka Gakkai for the 10 years after
he took office as consistent with Nittatsu Shonin's guidance. It is a
case that I do not think they can reasonably make.
A word or two about the Chief, who is fond of making fun of my handle,
accusing me of poor reasoning and unfounded accusations, talking about
my fleas and my 20 year itch, and who seemingly always claims to be both
at war, and rolling on the floor laughing. I am not averse to abuse. It
seems to come with the territory. But I do not state things casually or
make wild statements without substantiation. When I express my opinion,
I state it as my opinion. I do have access to material (mostly draft
translations) that few, if any others have access to, and I regret that
I am unable to share it. That which I can share, I do. I have been to
lectures which, I suspect, differ from anything you can attend in
today's Soka Gakkai or Nichiren Shoshu. When my tongue is not in my
cheek (and it sometimes is), I try to post seriously and ask to be taken
that way. I am not here to take pot shots, or to hit and run. I have
tried to focus on substance, and not personality. Where it concerns the
actual teachings of Buddhism, or where one can come to correctly
appreciate the Daishonin's teaching and his spirit, twenty years hardly
seems like a long time to endure difficulties. I would happily endure
another 40. I have neither the time, nor the inclination of those who
post here frequently. If you want to ROTLF, Chief, as bizarre as that
might be for an eagle, let alone a stone eagle, please be my guest. It
will convey more about yourself than about anything I have said.
Woof! Grrrr!
Artie
P.S. For the record, the actual date of Mr. Ikeda's resignation as
Sokoto and as President of the Soka Gakkai was April 24, 1979. This
contradicts a conjecture in one of my prior posts that a February 1979
speech by Nittatsu Shonin would not have referred to him as "President"
Ikeda. As it turns out, my reasoning was based on a false premise (i.e.,
that Mr. Ikeda had resigned by February 1979), but my conclusion was
correct (i.e., the speech was given before the speech to the Danto
Tozan, not February 1979.)
------------------------------
A shorty for DeeJay from Stoney. Re. DerekJuhl posting on 01/13/01 -
7:03pm CST+6; x-ref. to RC (my) posting on 01/16/01 - 11:13am CST.
I changed the subject/title to:
The 66th High Priest's speech in the World Tribune - Feb 5th, 1979!**
1) Correction to your posting, DeeJay. Re. the excerpt of the 66th
High Priest's lecture or speech published in the Dai-Nichiren #390, p.
45, "That quote was NOT from the Leaders' Meeting Commemorating the 48th
Aniversary of the Soka Gakkai's Founding," as you wrote & I quote again!
FYI - the speech you posted below from the World Tribune newspaper
dated Feb 5th, 1979 was the one that the 66th High Priest, Nittatsu
Shonin gave at that above meeting on Nov 7th, 1978, and it contains none
of the sentences/words excerpted from the Dai-Nichiren magazine #390.
So, that was a different speech which seems to have been given to a
group of priests, and NOT a group of laity, Soka Gakkai leaders!
2) So, I am going to re-work your message, to add more info. from an
original copy of that old World Tribune newspaper which I still have at
home, and to make a few corrections to the text as you posted it.
WorldPeace! } : < { 0
******************************************************
Re: My letter to the Third President of the Sokagakkai
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Sat, Jan 13, 2001, 7:03pm (CST+6) From: dere...@netscape.net
(Derek=A0N.P.F.=A0Juhl)
In article <93lp2p$ahr$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, myo...@my-deja.com wrote:
excommunication is an administrative matter, not doctrinal? And
insisting that priests and lay believers refrain from pointing out
slander is an administrative matter, not a doctrinal one? Oh well.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Those who repeatedly ignore the instruction of the High Priest, and
refuse to self reflect, may relinquish their status as Nichiren Shoshu
believers.
---------------------------------------------------------------
<Stony snipped my comment that Derek is in no position to suggest, with
any credibility, who has self-reflected and who has not.>
In any case, Nittatsu Shonin also said:
"I suppose there are people still dissatisfied with the current reply,
but I would like to ask for everyone's understanding concerning this
line. I think hereafter they [Soka Gakkai] will again progress forward.
In addition, ***what changes they will undergo three years or five
years from now is not our responsibility, so everyone will be free to
think whatever they like,*** but I would like to ask that we put the
recent problems to rest." =A0 (Dai-Nichiren, No. 390, p. 45)
---------------------------------------------------------------
Derek,
Forgive me for not having my copies of Dai-Nichiren handy. What was the
date of this speech[?] The one I excerpted was given Jan. 27-28, 1979.
---------------------------------------------------------------
>>> That quote was from the Leaders' Meeting Commemorating the 48th
Anniversary of the Soka Gakkai's Founding. My source does not give a
date of the speech. <--- #1.
#1. RC comments: See top of message.
That is an error! That quote was NOT in the 66th High Priest's speech
that He gave at that meeting on that date, which is the same speech you
posted below, Nov. 7th, 1978!
---------------------------------------------------------------
In February of 1979, Nittatsu Shonin emphasised the gakkai's error. He
also stated that the problems should be put to rest for the time being.
Because the Shoshinkai violated the admonition to let it alone, and
eventually denied the Heritage of the Law passed to
Nikken Shonin, they were excommunicated.
---------------------------------------------------------------
< Again, this statement is erroneous, as Stoney has pointed out.
Nittatsu Shonin's speeches in January and March of that year say quite
the opposite. The actions of the priests who were to become the
Shoshinkai were consistent with Nittatsu Shonin's guidance, but at odds
with Rev. Abe's directives.>
Source: World Tribune newspaper, dated Monday, February 5, 1979. Issue
# 2193 (ISSN 0040-8165) page
#s 7-8.
[Headnotes:]
"The speech(es) given below (by three Soka Gakkai leaders and) by
the Nichiren Shoshu High Priest, Nittatsu Shonin, serve[s] to clarify
the relationship between the priesthood and the lay organization."
"These [this] speech[es] were [was] delivered at the Head Temple,
Taisekiji, November 7th [1978], and were [was] given to close a gap that
had opened between the Soka Gakkai and the priesthood during the past
few years." [omitted rest of paragraph]
[omitted next paragraph]
"As these [this] speech[es] indicate[s], both priesthood and laity
have vowed together to make a new start based on the relationship of
mutual respect and support established between Nichiren Shoshu and the
Soka Gakkai during President Josei Toda's days."
---------------------------------------------------------------
"High priest calls for new unity" (title)
By Nittatsu Shonin
Nichiren Shoshu High Priest
I have been listening to various statements made by Soka Gakkai
leaders at this meeting.
There certainly has been friction between Nichiren Shoshu and the
Soka Gakkai during the last several years. And as you know, this
recently developed into disturbances.(3) In the light of the spirit of
Nichiren Daishonin and Nikko Shonin, it obviously is a very unfortunate
thing to continue to see such a plight. Allowing
it to linger will not only make us a laughing stock but also result in
destroying Nichiren Shoshu itself. So I have been worried.
Having realized what I am concerned about, the Soka Gakkai has now
come to a decision that it will frankly reflect on some aspects of its'
past attitude and clearly change what should be changed. I am very glad
to see its' determination to improve. Setting out from the starting
point of the determination and decision you made today, I hope you will
further your efforts towards kosen-rufu [world peace] and protect
Nichiren Shoshu
from outside, centering on President Ikeda.
The role of the priesthood is not as easy as may appear to laymen.
Incapable as I am, I have been striving to educate and encourage every
priest to develop the kind of personality and intelligence which will
make him respectworthy as a Nichiren Shoshu priest. The same efforts
have also been made day in and day out at each local temple to build a
strong foundation for its raison d'etre --- to provide an ideal arena
whose
believers can learn and deepen their faith.
Still young however, many of Nichiren Shoshu priests may lack
important capability in leadership. So you, as believers, may have felt
discontented from time to time. But please mind you, both priests and
temples can develop themselves soundly only when they receive their
believers warm support, understanding and consideration. The earnest
wish of Nichiren Shoshu priests is to protect the Dai-Gohonzon under any
adverse circumstances and advance the propagation of Nichiren
Daishonin's Buddhism. And mind you again. we have no intention
whatsoever of taking advantage of your broadmindedness and society's
tolerance.
However, we have no choice but to rebuke the kind of movement in
which the laymen, swayed by wicked criticism, go on to slander and
oppress the temples of Nichiren Shoshu which can prosper only with their
strong support. We are very sorry deep inside as we see these things
happening around us due to lack of understanding on the part of some
people.
Such slanderous words and actions against the temples and priests
is indeed an act of breaking the harmonious unity between laymen and
priesthood. And I can't help but assert that this sort of act runs
counter to Nichiren Daishonin's teaching itself. I hope that the Soka
Gakkai leaders will understand what I mean and resolutely exert your
full effort to establish a correct relationship of priesthood and
laymen. Each one of the priests will not hesitate to reply to your
determined endeavor along these lines with his utmost sense of trust and
appreciation.
During the last 30 years, the Soka Gakkai has made astounding
progress, thus bringing about the unprecedented rise of Nichiren Shoshu.
This is a historical fact. The glorious accomplishments of the Soka
Gakkai will definitely shine in the history of Buddhism. But please
remember that there were always the unanimous support and cooperation by
the priesthood behind the spectacular advancement of the Soka Gakkai.
True, the structure of Nichiren Shoshu was not at that point
perfectly advanced enough to keep up with the developing rhythm of the
Soka Gakkai. So we have relied on the Gakkai in many aspects. But
nowadays, fortunately enough, with lots of capable priests growing
gradually, we, Nichiren Shoshu, are resolved to fulfill our
responsibilities on our own feet.
At any rate, we should protect and hand down the essence of the
tradition and teachings which have been cherished for 700 years since
the days of Nichiren Daishonin. Unless you base your efforts upon this
fundamental heritage, no matter how powerful you may become, it will
only mean a superficial advancement of kosen-rufu, only inviting
criticism from future generations. I am concerned about this point. I
must venture
to point this out today because as high priest of Nichiren Shoshu, I am
responsible to make my utmost efforts so that all believers can carry on
correct faith. I have long been trusting the faith of President Ikeda,
whom I sincerely ask to help all believers deepen the correct faith of
Nichiren Shoshu.
In the meantime, as far as those people who belong directly to
local temples (leaving the Soka Gakkai), I hope each chief priest of
these temples will responsibly guide them to the correct faith of
Nichiren Shoshu. Again, I hope those who newly came to belong directly
to their local temples (without belonging to the Soka Gakkai) will
further develop their faith which they have been polishing tenaciously
thus far. On the condition
that the Soka Gakkai will carry out the points I made today and follow
the basic guidelines we confirmed together, I would like you all to
agree to put an end to the disturbance between Nichiren Shoshu and Soka
Gakkai. I sincerely hope all of you will stop criticizing each other
and, with a new determination, forge ahead toward the realization of the
ideal relationship between priests and laymen. With the Dai-Gohonzon as
the basis. let each of us help one another in sound unity.
Anyway, the past is the past. The important thing is how we can
strengthen and develop Nichiren Shoshu and realize the ultimate goal of
kosen-rufu. The Gohonzon which we take faith in is meant to benefit us
now and in the future. Without clinging to past history, I hope you will
devote yourselves to protecting Nichiren
Shoshu by realizing the true harmony between priesthood and laymen. I
hope you all understand my intent.
---------------------------------------------------------------
(3) Footnote: Japanese weekly magazines published articles criticizing
the misunderstanding that occurred between the Nichiren Shoshu priests
and the Soka Gakkai.
WorldPeace! } : < { 0
******************************************************
<<< Stone Eagle >>>
Airborne in Cyberspace*
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Mr T
> A word or two about the Chief, who is fond of making fun of my handle,
> accusing me of poor reasoning and unfounded accusations, talking about
> my fleas and my 20 year itch, and who seemingly always claims to be both
> at war, and rolling on the floor laughing. I am not averse to abuse. It
> seems to come with the territory. But I do not state things casually or
> make wild statements without substantiation. When I express my opinion,
> I state it as my opinion. I do have access to material (mostly draft
> translations) that few, if any others have access to, and I regret that
> I am unable to share it. That which I can share, I do. I have been to
> lectures which, I suspect, differ from anything you can attend in
> today's Soka Gakkai or Nichiren Shoshu. When my tongue is not in my
> cheek (and it sometimes is), I try to post seriously and ask to be taken
> that way. I am not here to take pot shots, or to hit and run. I have
> tried to focus on substance, and not personality. Where it concerns the
> actual teachings of Buddhism, or where one can come to correctly
> appreciate the Daishonin's teaching and his spirit, twenty years hardly
> seems like a long time to endure difficulties. I would happily endure
> another 40. I have neither the time, nor the inclination of those who
> post here frequently. If you want to ROTLF, Chief, as bizarre as that
> might be for an eagle, let alone a stone eagle, please be my guest. It
> will convey more about yourself than about anything I have said.
>
> Woof! Grrrr!
>
> Artie
Artie, you have always been a reasoned voice up here, and reasoned
voices as we all know, tend to be few and far between. If it's any
consolation, Reggie has called me a pedophile (!) up here, so don't
think that being in another sect makes any difference to him.
--
Kurt
anti-spam measure:
to reply send to: martman at primenet dot net
Cody
"Mr T" <ne...@bobco.com> escribió en el mensaje
> > Woof! Grrrr!
> >
> > Artie
>
> Artie, you have always been a reasoned voice up here, and reasoned
> voices as we all know, tend to be few and far between. If it's any
> consolation, Reggie has called me a pedophile (!) up here, so don't
> think that being in another sect makes any difference to him.
>
>
> Kurt
I can vouch for that! He has called me a few things, too. He seems to also
wait at the arbn door and attack anyone who comes in here. He, too, though,
believe it or not, will eventually become Enlightened.
Cody
mcody @ ono.com
greengables
Using "danto tozan" in this manner is an oxymoron.The Nichiren Shoshu
believers do attend Gokaihi Ceremony, danto groups which are outside of
Nichiren Shoshu and who are not members of Nichiren Shoshu do not
attend Taisekiji at all. You haven't mentioned the Shoshinkai in your
discussion either that is a serious omission in regard to these
quotations by Nittasu Shonin and the current High Priest of Nichiren
Shoshu.
Greengables
--
greengables
myo...@my-deja.com
greengables <greenga...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
>
> Using "danto tozan" in this manner is an oxymoron.The Nichiren Shoshu
> believers do attend Gokaihi Ceremony, danto groups which are outside
of
> Nichiren Shoshu and who are not members of Nichiren Shoshu do not
> attend Taisekiji at all. You haven't mentioned the Shoshinkai in your
> discussion either that is a serious omission in regard to these
> quotations by Nittasu Shonin and the current High Priest of Nichiren
> Shoshu.
> Greengables
>
Not an oxymoron at all. The Danto were, at the time, Nichiren Shoshu
believers. They organized and met as lay believers of Nichiren Shoshu.
To the extent that they are no longer believers in today's Nichiren
Shoshu, it is as a consequence of the things that took place since Rev.
Abe assumed the High Priesthood. As you can read, Nittatsu Shonin warmly
encouraged their efforts. If you're interested, you could ask your own
Rev. Nagasaka. I don't know for sure, but I believe he might well have
been in attendance at that meeting.
I believe I did mention Shoshinkai peripherally. I am a Shoshinkai
believer, and I have made no secret of it in this forum. I don't know
how that fact affects the accuracy of the information I provided. It is
either accurate, or it is not. If you can provide guidances given by
Nittatsu Shonin in 1979 in which he discouraged criticism of the Soka
Gakkai, I'd like to see them.
For your reference, Rev. Tono's pamphlet, " ... the background, content,
meaning and spirit ..." was written and published while he was a
Nichiren Shoshu priest. The final translation of Nittatsu Shonin's
address to the Danto Tozan (and yes, that's exactly what it was), was
prepared a good time after his excommunication, and in his role as a
priest of the Shoshinkai.
Artie
Derek N.P.F. Juhl
myo...@my-deja.com wrote:
> If you can provide guidances given by Nittatsu Shonin in 1979 in which
> he discouraged criticism of the Soka Gakkai, I'd like to see them.
Please see
http://www.cebunet.com/sgi/sghistory.htm
--
Derek N.P.F. Juhl
http://nwguild.org
http://unionrecord.com
dc
>>>>Not an oxymoron at all. The Danto were, at the time, Nichiren Shoshu
believers. They organized and met as lay believers of Nichiren Shoshu.
To the extent that they are no longer believers in today's Nichiren
Shoshu, it is as a consequence of the things that took place since Rev.
Abe assumed the High Priesthood. As you can read, Nittatsu Shonin warmly
encouraged their efforts. If you're interested, you could ask your own
Rev. Nagasaka. I don't know for sure, but I believe he might well have
been in attendance at that meeting.<<<<<
"danto" is not a group and does not refer to Shoshinkai even though many of
them were "Dantos' first as in the Nittatsu Shonin speech.
The SGI is responsible for turning the term into a group idea. Nichiren
Shoshu directly connected to the temple but not specifically in a lay group,
could be called a danto member.
dc
myo...@my-deja.com
Derek N.P.F. Juhl <dere...@netscape.net> wrote:
> In article <94g846$jj0$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> myo...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > If you can provide guidances given by Nittatsu Shonin in 1979 in
which
> > he discouraged criticism of the Soka Gakkai, I'd like to see them.
>
> Please see
>
> http://www.cebunet.com/sgi/sghistory.htm
>
> --
> Derek N.P.F. Juhl
Derek,
I have examined the web page you cited above. The only 1979 speech given
by Nittatsu Shonin on that page is the March address to the Myokan-kai.
It reads, in part,
"Foolishly, we didn't know. It isindeed regrettable. Sixteen or
seventeen years have already passed since that time. The erroneous
doctrinal interpretations over this period of time are difficult to
correct overnight. This is why, now, we are enmeshed in the present
dispute. The priests, therefore, must firmly determine to point out the
mistakes in the doctrinal analyses and, also, to resolutely provide
guidance to the people. In this regard, the priests must correctly
internalize Nichiren Daishonin's teachings. It is, of course, necessary
to know about Buddhism in general, to strongly protect the temple and to
instruct the believers. Do not give instruction on trivialities such as
whether or not one receives benefits. I hear that some priests teach in
this way, but do not talk about such insignificant things. Instead,
please cultivate a strong foundation in Buddhist study."
...
"Always remember that, if someone says something wrong, even though he
is the president or vice-president, if you do not firmly point out
the error, you will not be fulfilling your responsibility as a Nichiren
Shoshu priest. Please make this determination. Those who are
members of the Myokan-kai must embrace this spirit. Do not get into
superficial arguments. This must be done to pay back the contributions
of the Gakkai in the past. The Gosho states, "The debts of gratitude to
the white crow are repaid to the black crow." This is indeed the case. I
would like to impress upon the priests of the Myokan-kai that we must
embrace the spirit of leading the people through the tenets of the True
Law, teaching all people and protecting the priesthood. Please keep this
in mind as you redouble your efforts in your studies, in deepening your
faith, and in protecting the priesthood. I will conclude my remarks on
this occasion by asking this of you today.
Thank you very much."
It appears to me to be entirely consistent with the excerpts of the
speech to the Danto Tozan which I cited. I see nothing here that would
suggest a request to cease criticism or refutation of Soka Gakkai
errors. Quite the contrary.
I also find it interesting that Nichiren Shoshu has chosen not to
translate the speech to the Danto Tozan (or perhaps Craig has chosen not
to post it). (As I said before, it is my understanding that the address
to the Danto Tozan and that to the Myokan-kai were the last major
addresses of Nittatsu Shonin's life.)
I find myself more firmly convinced than before.
Artie
P.S. Craig (if you're reading), thank you for posting the speech. I do
wish you would reinsert spaces between words that appear to have been
removed, and to correct at least the one typo that I found "dear" -->
"clear".
myo...@my-deja.com
Perhaps you should respond to greengables. It is she that called a
Danto Tozan an oxymoron. I did not mean to suggest that they were an
organization in the same sense that Soka Gakkai and Hokkeko are
organizations. At the same time, there was apparently enough
"organization" so that they went on Tozan and held meetings together,
and when Rev. Abe forbade them to meet at Taisekiji, they relocated that
meeting to Tokyo.
I'm sure that a number of Shoshinkai lay believers were formerly danto
believers, just as the Shoshinkai priests were all Nichiren Shoshu
priests (before being excommunicated). And yes, I imagine that believers
in the current Nichiren Shoshu who do not belong to Hokkeko could be
characterized as danto. Much ado about nothing.
guna
>Artie, you have always been a reasoned voice up here, and reasoned
>voices as we all know, tend to be few and far between. If it's any
>consolation, Reggie has called me a pedophile (!) up here, so don't
>think that being in another sect makes any difference to him.
he seems to adopt the twisted online persona of a kind of turrets syndrome Mr T
(out of the A Team - not you).
Reginald Carpenter
6:17pm CST-2.
******************************************************
Re: For Derek, Stoney and NS
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Sun, Jan 21, 2001, 6:17pm (CST-2) From: ne...@bobco.com (Mr T)
In article <94fqte$8sq$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, myo...@my-deja.com wrote:
A word or two about the Chief, who is fond of making fun of my handle,
accusing me of poor reasoning and unfounded accusations, talking about
my fleas and my 20 year itch, and who seemingly always claims to be both
at war, and rolling on the floor laughing. I am not averse to abuse. It
seems to come with the territory. But I do not state things casually or
make wild statements without substantiation. When I express my opinion,
I state it as my opinion. I do have access to material (mostly draft
translations) that few, if any others have access to, and I regret that
I am unable to share it. That which I can share, I do. I have been to
lectures which, I suspect, differ from anything you can attend in
today's Soka Gakkai or Nichiren Shoshu. When my tongue is not in my
cheek (and it sometimes is), I try to post seriously and ask to be taken
that way. I am not here to take pot shots, or to hit and run. I have
tried to focus on substance, and not personality. Where it concerns the
actual teachings of Buddhism, or where one can come to correctly
appreciate the Daishonin's teaching and his spirit, twenty years hardly
seems like a long time to endure difficulties. I would happily endure
another 40. I have neither the time, nor the inclination of those who
post here frequently. If you want to ROTLF, Chief, as bizarre as that
might be for an eagle, let alone a stone eagle, please be my guest. It
will convey more about yourself than about anything I have said.
Woof! Grrrr!
Artie
---------------------------------------------------------------
>> Artie, you have always been a reasoned voice up here, and reasoned
voices as we all know, tend to be few and far between. <--- #1.
#1. RC comments: Yeah, "Artie the Doggie" has "always been a reasoned
voice Up [in] here," BUT he hasn't always had any FACTS to back up his
'voice of reason' about the issues, which for him do in fact "tend to be
few and far between"! ROTFL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
>> If it's any consolation, Reggie has called me a pedophile (!) up
here, so don't think that being in another sect makes any difference to
him. <--- #2.
#2. RC comments: Well, since your little, lousy, LYING, low life
conditioned DUMBASS do seem to fit the Profile of a Pedophile, and admit
to being Mr Kurt "No Kids Route" Triffet the Hypocrite, "Reggie" (who
dat?) called you a "possible pedophile," you PERVERT - Mr T.ruffles!
ROTFL.
So "if the shoe fits, you must wear it"! But, "if it doesn't fit, you
must a-quit" - Johnny Cochrane - COMPLAINING & LYING about it, FOOL!
ROTFL.
And, another Arbn poster "being in another sect makes NO difference to
[me] ," because I am an EOI - Equal Opportunity Insulter! ROTFL. War.
} : < { 0
--
Kurt
Derek N.P.F. Juhl
myo...@my-deja.com wrote:
> I have examined the web page you cited above. The only 1979 speech
given
> by Nittatsu Shonin on that page is the March address to the
Myokan-kai.
>
> It appears to me to be entirely consistent with the excerpts of the
> speech to the Danto Tozan which I cited. I see nothing here that would
> suggest a request to cease criticism or refutation of Soka Gakkai
> errors. Quite the contrary.
Nittatsu Shonin stated at the "Tozan of Apology" in November, 1978:
"_On the condition_ that the Soka Gakkai will carry out the points I
made today and follow the basic guidelines we confirmed together, I
would like you all to agree to put an end to the disturbance between
Nichiren Shoshu and Soka Gakkai."
See SGI President Daisaku Ikeda's "Reconfirming Our Fundamental
Mission" in The Seikyo Times, May, 1980, No. 227, page 22-23:
http://www.cebunet.com/sgi/reconfirm.html
Furthermore, SGI published
ACTIVITES OF THE SOKA GAKKAI
THE BASICS OF BUDDHIST STUDY
Soka Gakkai Seikyo Times
August, 1979 No. 218, Pages 16-17
The Lay Organization of Nichiren Shoshu
The entirety of Nichiren Daishonin's Buddhism
was correctly inherited solely by Nikko Shonin.
Since then up until the present day, for seven
centuries, the pure lineage of true Buddhism has
been maintained through the successive high
Priests of the Nichiren Shoshu Head Temple,
Taiseki-ji, just as water from one glass is trans-
ferred in its entirety into another. The Soka
Gakkai, which is the lay organization of Nichiren
Shoshu, has promoted the movement for kosen-rufu
which Nichiren Daishonin willed that his followers
attain.
A passage from On Attaining Enlightenment
through Taking Faith in the Lotus Sutra reads,
"The three things, good steel, the corner of a
good flint and good tinder, are combined to create
fire. The same is true for prayers. The good
master, the good lay believer and the good law are
combined to answer prayers and rid the country
of great misfortune."
The good law, mentioned in this passage, Is
Nam-myoho-renge-kyo of the Three Great Secret
Laws. The good master indicates Nichiren Dai-
shonin, the True Buddha of the Latter Day of the
Law, and also the successive High Priests who
carry the heritage of Nichiren Shoshu. The Soka
Gakkai members, who are lay believers of Nichiren
Shoshu, play the role of "the good lay believ-
ers" who promote the propagation of true Bud-
dhism and protect Nichiren Shoshu. Its president
is the leader and the representative of "the good
lay believers." The concept of "master" is very
important in Buddhism and usually refers to a
Buddha. The traditional usage of the master-
disciple concept in the Soka Gakkai indicates
leadership in the realm of laity. In other words,
the successive presidents of the Soka Gakkai were
and are "masters" in the sense that they lead
propagation and give a Buddhist view of life in so-
ciety. The above passage teaches that those three
things combined together are sure to answer
prayers for the happiness of all mankind and the
security of the land, or the attainment of kosen-
rufu.
In 1951, after he was inaugurated as the second
president of the Soka Gakkai, Josei Toda made
application to the authorities of Nichiren Shoshu
that the Soka Gakkai be established as a new
religious corporate body on the premise that it
would continue to be a lay organization of Nichi-
ren Shoshu. There were two reasons for this:
1) The Soka Gakkai would stand on its own
feet in order to shoulder the responsibility for
coping with all difficulties impeding kosen-rufu
and to protect the Head Temple.
2) As a religious corporate body, the
Gakkai would be able to more smoothly carry
on a wide range of propagation activities in the
future.
On this occasion, the authorities concerned
instructed the Soka Gakkai to abide by the follow-
ing three agreements:
1) The Soka Gakkai shall let those people it
has converted to Nichiren Shoshu belong to one
of the sect's local temples.
2) The Soka Gakkai shall follow the doctrines
of Nichiren Shoshu.
3) The Soka Gakkai shall protect the Three
Treasures of the Buddha, the Law and the Priest.
In August 1952, the Soka Gakkai legally became
a religious corporation. Since then until now, for
nearly thirty years, the Soka Gakkai has been
expanding its activities toward kosen-rufu and
grown as great as it is today. Such a striking
advancement may well be called a manifestation
of the power of the Dai-Gohonzon of the High
Sanctuary. Therefore, we continue to revere the
Head Temple which enshrines this Dai-Gohonzon
as the central place of our faith.
The Unity of Priesthood and Laity
At the beginning of On Rituals (Kegi Sho), the
ninth High Priest, Nichiu Shonin, wrote, "All
people with faith, whether they are lay or clerical,
high or low in status, are equal as they are entities
of Myoho-renge-kyo. However, just as a bamboo
is made up of upper and lower joints, the posi-
tions of the Priesthood and the laity should not
be confused, with the decorum between the two
politely observed." The former half of the pas-
sage explains that all people are equal with regard
to faith in the Dai-Gohonzon. This also means
that Nichiren Daishonin's Buddhism is equally
given to all people of the world as the Daishonin
says that the Dai-Gohonzon is "the supreme
object of worship on the earth."
However, this equality between the Priesthood
and the laity does not imply that we may disregard
the propriety between the two and their respective
roles. This is the point that the High Priest teaches
in the latter half of the passage.
At the November 1978 leaders meeting to com-
memorate the forty-eighth anniversary of the Soka
Gakkai, Honorary President Daisaku Ikeda
stressed the harmonious unity between the clergy
and the laity in his address.
I have repeatedly emphasized the importance of
harmony between the clergy and the laity. It
is my firm belief that we can never achieve
kosen-rufu without it. Therefore, let us confirm
that the Soka Gakkai's eternal guiding principle
is to protect, support and advance hand in hand
with the Nichiren Shoshu Priesthood. Not only
within our Buddhist circles, but in society as a
whole, the greatest challenges lie in the ques-
tions of how to harmonize forces of tradition
and modernization, history and progress, as
well as standards and social development.
Development without norms, progress without
respect for tradition are all rooted shallowly
and cannot last. Therefore, in promoting
Nichiren Daishonin's Buddhism with respect to
our time, in our society and throughout the
world, we must resolve to advance our activities
with full consideration of the traditions of
Nichiren Shoshu and the orthodoxy of its
doctrine.
While we take into account the traditions of
Nichiren Shoshu with its seven-hundred-year his-
tory or, in a broader sense, those of the three-
thousand-year history of Buddhism, we continue
propagation in order to save all people throughout
the world.
To be sure, a religious organization must keep
abreast of the times. Yet, if it fails to strictly
observe the prime points that transcend the times,
it will deviate from the correct path of faith.
How to harmonize these two requirements is the
key to ideally developing the organization in any
place and at any time.
We can see that the eternal unity between the
clergy and the laity is the basis for the perpetuation
of the Law and kosen-rufu. In the history of the
world, religions have always been confronted by
problems pertaining to the relationship between
Priests and laymen. Our success in creating model
unity between the two will not only secure the
flourishing of Nichiren Daishonin's Buddhism
but also become an example for all religions in
the world.
The Ultimate Aim: World Peace
The ultimate purpose of the Soka Gakkai is
kosen-rufu to spread Nichiren Daishonin's Bud-
dhism to all people throughout the world. Nichi-
ren Daishonin says in the Ongi Kuden, "The
greatest wish is to propagate the Lotus Sutra."
He devoted his entire life to spreading the true
law in the face of all hardships and persecutions.
He also mandated future generations to achieve
this great wish.
In order to realize this spirit of Nichiren Dai-
shonin, the Soka Gakkai observes the doctrines
of Nichiren Shoshu and carries on a religious
movement for the salvation of mankind. The
essential meaning of Buddhism lies in solving
fundamental human sufferings of birth, old age,
sickness and death, which can never be dealt with
through such external approaches as politics,
economics or college education.<<<<<
Ikeda's and the other gakkai execs' apologies, along with the correct
Nichiren Shoshu doctrine in official SGI newspapers and magazines,
indicated that indeed, Soka Gakkai was carrying out the points Nittatsu
Shonin made. Therefore, the correct course was to put an end to the
disturbance between Nichiren Shoshu and Soka Gakkai. According to
Nittatsu Shonin's speech, was the condition that if in the future, the
gakkai should again deviate from Nichiren Shoshu, that would be
freely pointed out. Nikken Shonin fulfilled this in the early 90s, when
it became apparent that the gakkai's Line of '77 apologies were a sham.
--
Derek N.P.F. Juhl
http://nwguild.org
http://unionrecord.com
greengables
The reason most of them went to the Shoshinkai was because they were
uncomfortable with the direction of the SGI. But you have confused me
and I must admit I didn't read your post carefully. I was under the
impression that "danto" was anyone who had set themselves apart from
Nichiren Shoshu and in its pergorative sense it is so used by the SGI to
imply that the current Nichiren Shoshu is a deviation, although the
reverse is true.
IMHO one is either Nichiren Shoshu or one is not. There are all sorts of
people who say things like I will never be taiten until I give back the
Gohonzon (which actually sounds like they have are keeping it hostage)
and I will practice on my own, or I don't need the priest or temple or
meetings or I would like to attend other sects as well. But if one
really beleives in the Heritage of the Law then there is no choice but
to participate fully in the Nichiren Shoshu.
This danto tozan is not a practice I have heard of lately but also not
such a bad idea. And one mustn't forget that Soka Gakkai and the Hokkeko
were not the only lay organizations of Nichiren Shoshu who had organized
tozans. The SGI would not like anyone to know about the existence of
other groups because their claim to fame was to be the number one lay
organization because of the amount of shakabuku they did and the
revenues they generated. I think it would be fine if the SGI were
allowed a tozan, it might wake up a
myo...@my-deja.com
> myo...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > I have examined the web page you cited above. The only 1979 speech
> given
> > by Nittatsu Shonin on that page is the March address to the
> Myokan-kai.
> >
> > It appears to me to be entirely consistent with the excerpts of the
> > speech to the Danto Tozan which I cited. I see nothing here that
would
> > suggest a request to cease criticism or refutation of Soka Gakkai
> > errors. Quite the contrary.
>
> Nittatsu Shonin stated at the "Tozan of Apology" in November, 1978:
>
> "_On the condition_ that the Soka Gakkai will carry out the points I
> made today and follow the basic guidelines we confirmed together, I
> would like you all to agree to put an end to the disturbance between
> Nichiren Shoshu and Soka Gakkai."
>
With all due respect, I said speeches given in 1979. The above was (as
you say) delivered in November 1978, and while you refer to it as the
"Tozan of Apology", the Soka Gakkai referred to it as the "Leaders'
Meeting Commemorating the 48th Anniversary of the Soka Gakkai's
Founding". As I discussed in a previous post, the "apologies" expressed
(to the extent that they were expressed) were not at all in keeping with
what the Nichiren Shoshu priesthood had been led to expect. As Rev.
Tono's pamphlet indicates, High Priest Nittatsu Shonin called a meeting
of the priesthood immediately after this meeting, saying "If the Soka
Gakkai makes the same mistakes as were made in the past, especially over
the last two to three years, then we should unite in one mind, hand in
hand, and aggressively reveal their mistakes."
His subsequent speeches both make the point that it is the
RESPONSIBILITY of priests who see errors to point them out. They are
certainly not a call to refrain from criticizing the Soka Gakkai.
> See SGI President Daisaku Ikeda's "Reconfirming Our Fundamental
> Mission" in The Seikyo Times, May, 1980, No. 227, page 22-23:
>
> http://www.cebunet.com/sgi/reconfirm.html
>
> Furthermore, SGI published
>
> ACTIVITES OF THE SOKA GAKKAI
> THE BASICS OF BUDDHIST STUDY
> Soka Gakkai Seikyo Times
> August, 1979 No. 218, Pages 16-17
These were both published after the death of Nittatsu Shonin.
So again, my point is that the actions of Rev. Abe, on assuming the
office of High Priest, were not consistent with the last guidances of
Nittatsu Shonin.
Artie
> --
> Derek N.P.F. Juhl
greengables
my ivory tower but Tourettes Syndrome that would be something different.
(The involuntary movements, twitches and touching along with the
occasional inappropriate word uttered by those posssessing this syndrome
can actually be quite delightful.)
greengables
myo...@my-deja.com
greengables <greenga...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> As you probably know we have a few ex-Shoshinkai members at our
temple.
> The reason most of them went to the Shoshinkai was because they were
> uncomfortable with the direction of the SGI.
I know some of them, and some of them know me. Many were uncomfortable
with SGI long before Rev. Abe was. "Discomfort" stems from many reasons,
some doctrinal, some cultural, some personal. I left the Gakkai in 1981,
not because I didn't like the hierarchy, or the brass bands, or the
anti-intellectualism, but because I felt that they were not teaching
Buddhism. For many years, I was not permitted to go on Tozan not because
I was not a member of Nichiren Shoshu, but because I was not a member of
the Soka Gakkai. The Nichiren Shoshu of those days provided no "support"
for believers "uncomfortable" with the Soka Gakkai.
> But you have confused me
> and I must admit I didn't read your post carefully. I was under the
> impression that "danto" was anyone who had set themselves apart from
> Nichiren Shoshu and in its pergorative sense it is so used by the SGI
to
> imply that the current Nichiren Shoshu is a deviation, although the
> reverse is true.
I believe that the accurate definition of Danto believer is a Nichiren
Shoshu believer who belongs directly to a temple, and not to a lay
organization.
> IMHO one is either Nichiren Shoshu or one is not. There are all sorts
of
> people who say things like I will never be taiten until I give back
the
> Gohonzon (which actually sounds like they have are keeping it hostage)
> and I will practice on my own, or I don't need the priest or temple or
> meetings or I would like to attend other sects as well. But if one
> really beleives in the Heritage of the Law then there is no choice but
> to participate fully in the Nichiren Shoshu.
I do practice with a priest, trained in the doctrine and spirit of
Nichiren Shoshu. He is the former chief priest of your very temple, and
a Nichiren Shoshu priest until the late '70s when Rev. Abe
excommunicated him. The 200+ priests who formed the Shoshinkai were all
trained by Nittatsu Shonin, or his predecessors. Personally, I would not
accept Rev. Abe's direction even if he had legitimately received the
Heritage. I do not believe that he did and no one has provided any
objective evidence that he did (hopefully to be the subject of a post -
hopefully sooner, rather than later). The doctrine we study is strictly
within the tradition of Nichiren Shoshu. You should also know that Rev.
Tono has offered to debate publicly with Rev. Nagasaka, an offer which
he has failed to accept.
It is easy to speak simplisticly about the Heritage of the Law, but it
is a concept which is far more profound than anything you or I am
capable of discussing at this point in our faiths. The present situation
is not a happy one for me, and it is not a happy one for the Shoshinkai
priests, but they are carrying out their faith as they have been taught.
> This danto tozan is not a practice I have heard of lately but also not
> such a bad idea. And one mustn't forget that Soka Gakkai and the
Hokkeko
> were not the only lay organizations of Nichiren Shoshu who had
organized
> tozans. The SGI would not like anyone to know about the existence of
> other groups because their claim to fame was to be the number one lay
> organization because of the amount of shakabuku they did and the
> revenues they generated. I think it would be fine if the SGI were
> allowed a tozan, it might wake up a
>
<did I cut you off?>
Danto tozan is not a practice. Tozan may be a practice. Danto is a
classification of practitioner. By Tozan, I assume you mean
participating in the Gokaihi ceremony. Your paragraph could spark
discussions of several issues - whether worshiping the Dai Gohonzon in
person is an essential part of practice (as opposed to accepting and
embracing the Dai Gohonzon) (I think not), and whether it is appropriate
to allow other sects (in which class I place the Soka Gakkai) to worship
the Dai Gohonzon in person (again, I think not). I wish I had the time
to pursue these, but, unfortunately, I do not.
Derek N.P.F. Juhl
myo...@my-deja.com wrote:
> With all due respect, I said speeches given in 1979. The above was (as
> you say) delivered in November 1978, and while you refer to it as the
> "Tozan of Apology", the Soka Gakkai referred to it as the "Leaders'
> Meeting Commemorating the 48th Anniversary of the Soka Gakkai's
> Founding". As I discussed in a previous post, the "apologies"
expressed
> (to the extent that they were expressed) were not at all in keeping
with
> what the Nichiren Shoshu priesthood had been led to expect. As Rev.
> Tono's pamphlet indicates, High Priest Nittatsu Shonin called a
meeting
> of the priesthood immediately after this meeting, saying "If the Soka
> Gakkai makes the same mistakes as were made in the past, especially
over
> the last two to three years, then we should unite in one mind, hand in
> hand, and aggressively reveal their mistakes."
>
> His subsequent speeches both make the point that it is the
> RESPONSIBILITY of priests who see errors to point them out. They are
> certainly not a call to refrain from criticizing the Soka Gakkai.
>
> > ACTIVITES OF THE SOKA GAKKAI
> > THE BASICS OF BUDDHIST STUDY
> > Soka Gakkai Seikyo Times
> > August, 1979 No. 218, Pages 16-17
>
> These were both published after the death of Nittatsu Shonin.
>
> So again, my point is that the actions of Rev. Abe, on assuming the
> office of High Priest, were not consistent with the last guidances of
> Nittatsu Shonin.
Please see my post, "Line of '77 and the Shoshinkai."
--
Derek N.P.F. Juhl
http://nwguild.org
http://unionrecord.com
Reginald Carpenter
6:56pm CST+6.
Re: For Derek, Stoney and NS
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
(guna)
Artie, you have always been a reasoned voice up here, and reasoned
voices as we all know, tend to be few and far between. If it's any
consolation, Reggie has called me a pedophile (!) up here, so don't
think that being in another sect makes any difference to him.
---------------------------------------------------------------
>> he seems to adopt the twisted online persona of a kind of turrets
[sic] syndrome Mr T (out of the A Team - not you). <--- #1.
#1. RC comments: Well, you really seem to be a LYING-ASS, low life
conditioned DUMB-ASS "online persona" who really doesn't know what in
the H-e-l-l you're talking about, you Guna Tuna - FOOL! ROTFL.
Because, you must have put your d-a-m-ned STUPID head in the way of the
recoil action of a gun in a ship's gun turret, "Gunney mate" - Paul
Muntz! ROTFL.
So, please don't even try to use little words (turrets) that your BIG
DUMB-ASS doesn't know what they mean and can't spell, you IDIOT!
Because, Spelling & RIF - Reading Is Fundamental, FOOL! ROTFL.
<http://www.rif.org>
BTW - the real Mr T (Tero), who is just the opposite with children as
that FAKE "Mr T" - Kurt the two-faced HYPOCRITE Triffet, the possible
PEDOPHILE, was a high school friend of my brother in Chicago, FOOL!
ROTFL. War. } : < { 0
Reginald Carpenter
CST-2. I changed the subject/title to: Re: For Artie the scalded
MyDog - get a seeing-eye dog!**
1) First of all, you ran away just like a scalded dog from the Arbn
thread, "Re. my letter to the Third President of the SokaGakkai," and
the replies to your flea-bitten posting on 1/12/01 - 2:03am CST+6,
little Artie my MyoDoggie! LOL.
2) On that thread, I changed the subject/title to: the 66th High
Priest's Speech in the World Tribune, Feb 5th, 1979, which was given on
Nov 7th, 1978; and I rewrote & reposted it there on 1/16/01 - 11:13am
CST.
3) So, either you are so blind and/or your brain is/was too flea-bitten
to read it and what Nittatsu Shonin Gekka wrote & I quote, speaking to
BOTH the Nichiren Shoshu Priesthood and Soka Gakkai leaders in
attendance on that date/time/place, that:
"I sincerely hope that all of you will STOP CRITICIZING EACH OTHER
......."!
4) That was the "policy" of the 66th High Priest which the 67th High
Priest did NOT change and did enforce against those so called
INsubordinate Shoshinkai priests by having to "defrock" them when they
refused to obey it!
5) So, please try to get yourself a seeing-eye dog, but take a doggie
bath & change your old flea-collar first, FOOL! ROTFL. War. } : < {
0
******************************************************
Re: For Derek, Stoney and NS
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Sun, Jan 21, 2001, 6:17pm (CST-2) From: ne...@bobco.com (Mr T)
In article <94fqte$8sq$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, myo...@my-deja.com wrote:
A word or two about the Chief, who is fond of making fun of my handle,
accusing me of poor reasoning and unfounded accusations, talking about
my fleas and my 20 year itch, and who seemingly always claims to be both
at war, and rolling on the floor laughing. I am not averse to abuse. It
seems to come with the territory. But I do not state things casually or
make wild statements without substantiation. When I express my opinion,
I state it as my opinion. I do have access to material (mostly draft
translations) that few, if any others have access to, and I regret that
I am unable to share it. That which I can share, I do. I have been to
lectures which, I suspect, differ from anything you can attend in
today's Soka Gakkai or Nichiren Shoshu. When my tongue is not in my
cheek (and it sometimes is), I try to post seriously and ask to be taken
that way. I am not here to take pot shots, or to hit and run. I have
tried to focus on substance, and not personality. Where it concerns the
actual teachings of Buddhism, or where one can come to correctly
appreciate the Daishonin's teaching and his spirit, twenty years hardly
seems like a long time to endure difficulties. I would happily endure
another 40. I have neither the time, nor the inclination of those who
post here frequently. If you want to ROTLF, Chief, as bizarre as that
might be for an eagle, let alone a stone eagle, please be my guest. It
will convey more about yourself than about anything I have said.
Woof! Grrrr!
Artie
Reginald Carpenter
CST+6; x-ref. to RC (my) posting on 1/23/01 - 2:57am CST. I changed the
subject/title to: Re: For Artie the scalded MyoDog - get a seeing-eye
dog!**
1) First of all, you ran away from the Truth just like a COWARDly little
scalded dog on the other thread, "Re. my Letter to the Third President
of the SokaGakkai" where the 66th High Priest's speech was posted, which
He gave to BOTH the Nichiren Shoshu Priesthood & SokaGakkai leaders on
Nov 7th, 1978 and was published in the World Tribune newspaper dated Feb
5th, 1979!
Either you are too blind or too flea-bitten in your mind to be able to
read it, Artie my MyoDoggie! ROTFL.
Because, He wrote & I quote, that:
"I sincerely hope all of you will STOP CRITICIZING EACH OTHER
.........."!
So, you need to go get yourself a good seeing-eye dog to help you to get
these old facts straight; but be sure to take a good doggie bath and
change your 20yr old, too late, flea collar first, FOOL! ROTFL.
2) Secondly, the so called "information" which you claim to provide is
NOT accurate and is UNsubtantiated, because you do NOT really know just
what in H-e-l-l you're talking about, old Artie the scalded MyoDoggie!
ROTFL. War. } : < { 0
******************************************************
Re: For Derek, Stoney and NS
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Mon, Jan 22, 2001, 3:06am (CST+6) From: myo...@my-deja.com
In article <94g5fv$hdo$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, greengables
<greenga...@my-deja.com> wrote:
Using "danto tozan" in this manner is an oxymoron.The Nichiren Shoshu
believers do attend Gokaihi Ceremony, danto groups which are outside of
Nichiren Shoshu and who are not members of Nichiren Shoshu do not attend
Taisekiji at all. You haven't mentioned the Shoshinkai in your
discussion either that is a serious omission in regard to these
quotations by Nittasu Shonin and the current High Priest of Nichiren
Shoshu.
Greengables
---------------------------------------------------------------
Greengables,
Not an oxymoron at all. The Danto were, at the time, Nichiren Shoshu
believers. They organized and met as lay believers of Nichiren Shoshu.
To the extent that they are no longer believers in today's Nichiren
Shoshu, it is as a consequence of the things that took place since Rev.
Abe assumed the High Priesthood. As you can read, Nittatsu Shonin warmly
encouraged their efforts. If you're interested, you could ask your own
Rev. Nagasaka. I don't know for sure, but I believe he might well have
been in attendance at that meeting.
I believe I did mention Shoshinkai peripherally. I am a Shoshinkai
believer, and I have made no secret of it in this forum. I don't know
how that fact affects the accuracy of the information I provided. It is
either accurate, or it is not. If you can provide guidances given by
Nittatsu Shonin in 1979 in which he discouraged criticism of the Soka
Gakkai, I'd like to see them.
For your reference, Rev. Tono's pamphlet, " ... the background, content,
meaning and spirit ..." was written and published while he was a
Nichiren Shoshu priest. The final translation of Nittatsu Shonin's
address to the Danto Tozan (and yes, that's exactly what it was), was
prepared a good time after his excommunication, and in his role as a
priest of the Shoshinkai.
Artie
Reginald Carpenter
9:45pm CST+6; x-ref. to RC (my) posting on 1/23/01 - 2:57am CST.
1) First of all, Artie ran just like a COWARDly scalded dog from the
other thread, "Re. My Letter to the Third President of the SokaGakkai"
which answered his posting made on 1/12/01 - 2:03am CST+6.
Now, his flea-bitten minded, blind-ass is on this thread asking for the
same info. that was given to his dumb, doggish-ass there! ROTFL.
2) So, re. my prior posting on 01/23/01, the 66th High Priest Nittatsu
Shonin gave His speech to BOTH the Nichiren Shoshu priesthood &
SokaGakkai leaders, and He wrote & I quote, that:
"I sincerely hope all of you will STOP CRITICIZING EACH OTHER
.........."!
3) That above same speech given on Nov 7th, 1978 and published in the
World Tribune newspaper issued dated Feb 5th, 1979 is also on that
website that poor old little Artie the scalded MyoDoggie doesn't see; so
maybe he'd better go get himself a seeing-eye dog, but take a doggie
bath and change his 20yrs old, too late flea-collar first! ROTFL. War.
} : < { 0
******************************************************
Re: For Derek, Stoney and NS
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Mon, Jan 22, 2001, 9:45pm (CST+6) From: dere...@netscape.net
(Derek N.P.F. Juhl)
In article <94i1dq$2nj$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, myo...@my-deja.com wrote:
I have examined the web page you cited above. The only 1979 speech given
by Nittatsu Shonin on that page is the March address to the Myokan-kai.
It appears to me to be entirely consistent with the excerpts of the
speech to the Danto Tozan which I cited. I see nothing here that would
suggest a request to cease criticism or refutation of Soka Gakkai
errors. Quite the contrary.
---------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.cebunet.com/sgi/reconfirm.html
MOMO
(Reginald Carpenter) wrote:
(snipped)
> 3) So, either you are so blind and/or your brain is/was too flea-
bitten
> to read it and what Nittatsu Shonin Gekka wrote & I quote, speaking to
> BOTH the Nichiren Shoshu Priesthood and Soka Gakkai leaders in
> attendance on that date/time/place, that:
(snipped)
Just a little correction, Reggie [who dat?]; it should be spelled
"Geika" not "Gekka".
Happy New Year!
take care,
momo
greengables
beyond what is acceptable and I know that there are good reasons for
that. However, anyone who joins the temple can see the DaiGohonzon.
Perhaps you are so enmeshed in the Shoshinkai now you could never leave
but I would suggest talking to someone at Myosetsuji. Do you think you
might be holding a grudge against High Priest Nikken Shonin or Reverend
Nagasaka?
Danto is just a word, and as i said it is a word that has taken on a
new meaning as it is used by the SGI in their onslaught against us.I do
think that worshipping the DaiGohonzon in person is essential to this
practice, although the SGI certainly don't.
Obviously the priesthood tried to patch things up with the Soka Gakkai
after the Line of 77 and why shoudln't they have been given a chance.
Nichiren Shoshu is perhaps not as strident as the Shoshinkai, I don't
know. The situation was complicated by the fact that there were two High
Priests. Your point I take it is that the two High Priests had
approached the situation differently, but what you might consider is
that consistency in the flow of the Law means making correct decisions
which accord with the time, for example in matters of excommunication.
The High Priest who inherits the specific transmission from Nichiren
Daishonin is the person most likely to teach the Law correctly for any
age. As for your doubt about the transmission you have no choice but to
doubt because if you did beleive in the Heritage of the Law then you
could not turn your back on High Priest Nikken Shonin. If he was not a
legitimate successor to Nittasu Shonin would the priesthood or the SGI
have remained silent about that-- this is a leap of logic that seems
rather
guna
Carpenter) wrote:
>BTW - the real Mr T (Tero), who is just the opposite with children as
>that FAKE "Mr T" - Kurt the two-faced HYPOCRITE Triffet, the possible
>PEDOPHILE, was a high school friend of my brother in Chicago, FOOL!
>ROTFL. War. } : < { 0
If my memory of the A Team serves me right, Mr T was a big dude with lots of
jewellery. He was always laying on this ridiculous, nausiating, boring,
laughable, macho posturing and calling people "FOOL".
All in all, he was a sad bastard, but he doesn't deserve to be called a
paedophile by you (his greatest student).
FOOL
WAR :)_{_+
ROFL
DUMBASS
SORRYASS
etc etc etc
zzzzz
Christopher H. Holte
greengables <greenga...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Thanks for your reply. Obviously my optimism about the DaiGohonzon is
> beyond what is acceptable and I know that there are good reasons for
> that. However, anyone who joins the temple can see the DaiGohonzon.
> Perhaps you are so enmeshed in the Shoshinkai now you could never
> leave but I would suggest talking to someone at Myosetsuji. Do you
> think you might be holding a grudge against High Priest Nikken
> Shonin or Reverend Nagasaka?
Artie would probably love to "go back" to Nichiren Shoshu. From what I
understand the remaining Shoshinkai members have been fidel to the
teachings of Nichiren Shoshu even as they have opposed Chief Priest
Nikken. I don't suspect that this is a matter of simply a grudge, but
one of principle. If people could understand this, they might be able
to make the first steps towards a genuine resolution of that issue.
Nikken owes them an apology -- not the other way around.
I'm not going to comment on the NST relationship to the Gakkai, because
that relationship involved dishonesty on both sides -- or there never
would have been a Shoshinkai in the first place.
And one of the more dishonest things has been insisting that;
> I do think that worshipping the DaiGohonzon in person is essential
> to this practice, although the SGI certainly don't.
The Gakkai did indeed insist that worshipping the Dai Gohonzon in
person was essential to this practice -- until we found that we weren't
NST members anymore. Then all the sudden it's not important any more.
Why people are so change-able I'll never figure out. But I do know that
the role of fundamental darkness is to turn "good teachers into bad
teachers" and make it harder for all of us to achieve enlightenment by
muddying up things from our nice easy principles.
Worshipping the Dai Gohonzon in person must be a wonderful thing, but
if a person, on account of principle feels he can't, then standing by
that principle is probably more important than a trip to the head
temple.
Chris
--
<a href="http://www.gosho.net/">Study the Gosho with me!</a><br>
<a href= "http://www.geocities.com/chris_holte">
Christopher H. Holte</a><br>
cbra...@my-deja.com
> The Gakkai did indeed insist that worshipping the Dai Gohonzon in
>person was essential to this practice -- until we found that we weren't
> NST members anymore. Then all the sudden it's not important any more.
> Why people are so change-able I'll never figure out.
That's what you get for following people who blow around with the wind
instead of the unchanging Law.
Stop the insanity
http://www.cebunet.com/nst
Christopher H. Holte
cbra...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Christopher H. Holte wrote:
> > The Gakkai did indeed insist that worshipping the Dai Gohonzon in
> >person was essential to this practice -- until we found that we
weren't
> > NST members anymore. Then all the sudden it's not important any
more.
> > Why people are so change-able I'll never figure out.
>
> That's what you get for following people who blow around with the wind
> instead of the unchanging Law.
>
Of course Artie and Reverend Tono may have some words about the notion
that the Gakkai is the only group affected by the 8 winds.
--
<a href="http://www.gosho.net/">Study the Gosho with me!</a><br>
<a href= "http://www.geocities.com/chris_holte">
Christopher H. Holte</a><br>
cbra...@my-deja.com
> > Christopher H. Holte wrote:
> > > The Gakkai did indeed insist that worshipping the Dai Gohonzon in
>NST members anymore. Then all the sudden it's not important any more.
> > > Why people are so change-able I'll never figure out.
> That's what you get for following people who blow around with the wind
> > instead of the unchanging Law.
high priest Holte shoots back:
> Of course Artie and Reverend Tono may have some words about the notion
> that the Gakkai is the only group affected by the 8 winds.
Well Holte, the fact remains: SGI blows around like a frigging LEAF..
NST hasn't changed one iota concerning their doctrines. Soka Gakkai
Ikeda has "reinvented" EVERYTHING...
End the confusion
http://www.nst.org
Reginald Carpenter
2:30am CST+6; x-ref. to RC (my) postings on 01/23/01 - 2:57am & 4:04am
CST. I changed the subject/title to: Re: For Artie the scalded dog -
get a seeing-eye dog!**
Re: For Derek, Stoney and NS
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
In article <94i9lp$ati$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Derek N.P.F. Juhl
<dere...@netscape.net> wrote:
In article <94i1dq$2nj$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, myo...@my-deja.com wrote:
I have examined the web page you cited above. The only 1979 speech given
by Nittatsu Shonin on that page is the March address to the
Myokan-kai.
>> It appears to me to be entirely consistent with the excerpts of the
speech to the Danto Tozan which I cited. <--- #1.
#1. RC comments: You really meant that:
" 'It appears to me to be entirely consistent with the excerpts of the
speech to the Danto Tozan which I cited' very selectively &
self-servingly and entirely CONTRIVED for those to be consistent with
it," FOOL! LOL.
So, "it appears to me" that you just AIN'T as smart & slick as you think
you're trying to be an old slick dog, Artie my little, scalded Doggie!
ROTFL.
Anyway, you ain't really doin' No-thin' [Zen] but beatin' a 20yr old
deadhorse to death to nurse a GRUDGE, tryin' to justify whatever those
arrogant & ignorant and very INsubordinate Shoshinkai priests did & said
over 20yrs ago to glorify them for which they were subsequently &
justifiably defrocked as Nichiren Shoshu priests by the 67th High
Priest, Nikken Shonin!
So, there is really No-thing [Zen] that you can do to change that,
except to violate my airspace in cyberspace,* and futilely beat that
20yr old dead issue to it's further death, to nurse your GRUDGE, and try
in vain to insult the authority & integrity of the 67th High Priest,
Nikken Shonin and the Nichiren Shoshu priesthood & religion!
But, I am NOT a tolerator of ANY violators, especially like you very
arrogant & ignorant HERETICal kind of DUMB-ASSES who do NOT know what in
the H-e-l-l the facts are that they're talking about on the issues like
you, and never present any proof, Artie the old, scalded doggie - FOOL!
ROTFL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
>> I see nothing here that would suggest a request to cease criticism or
refutation of Soka Gakkai errors. <--- #2.
#2. RC comments: Well, "I see nothing here" but your LYING-ASS, low
life conditioned DUMB-ASS being both blind & dumb and/or just plain
unable to read & comprehend the English language, FOOL! ROTFL.
How many times have I told DUMB-ASSES like you that RIF - Reading Is
Fundamental, FOOL?! LOL. <http://www.rif.org>
Because, in the 66th High Priest's Nov 7th, 1978 speech that He gave to
BOTH the Nichiren Shoshu Priesthood and SokaGakkai leaders in
attendance, He very clearly wrote & I quote, that:
"I sincerely hope [that] all of you will STOP CRITICIZING EACH OTHER
........" !
---------------------------------------------------------------
>> Quite the contrary. <--- #2a.
#2a. RC comments: NO, "quite the contrary" to your little, low life
conditioned perception, or lack of perception, He did NOT say/write
anything that was "quite the contrary" to what He had previously written
concerning that issue, FOOL! LOL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Nittatsu Shonin stated at the "Tozan of Apology" in November, 1978:
>> "_On the condition_ that the Soka Gakkai will carry out the points I
made today and follow the basic guidelines we confirmed together, I
would like you all to agree to put an end to the disturbance between
Nichiren Shoshu and Soka Gakkai." <--- #3.
#3. RC comments: See above #2.
The quote I excerpted comes later after the above #3 quote excerpted
from the SAME speech:
"I sincerely hope [that] all of you will STOP CRITICIZING EACH OTHER
........." !
So, just what part of that don't you understand, Artie my scalded
Myodoggie - FOOL?! LOL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Derek,
>> With all due respect, I said speeches given in 1979. <--- #4.
#4. RC comments: Well, "with all due respect," as "I said" before, you
are No-thing [Zen] but an IDIOT who does NOT really know what in the
H-e-l-l you're talking about and how to rationalize what you think
you're talking about, Artie my little scalded Myodoggie - FOOL! ROTFL.
Because, whatever He SAID, and whenever He said it, is still what He
MEANT later on in the year 1978 to 1979, the last few months of His
life!
Regardless of the date/time/place, the 66th High Priest, Nittatsu Shonin
SAID what He meant, and He MEANT what He said!
IOW - No-thing [Zen] that the 66th High Priest said/wrote later on in
ANY of His lectures or speeches in the last few seconds, minutes, hours,
days, weeks or months of His life in 1978 to 1979 after He said/wrote it
invalidates or nullifies ANYthing that He said/wrote before His death in
July 1979, just because your arrogant & very ignorant. low life
conditioned, LYING DUMB-ASS thinks so, FOOL! ROTFL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
>> The above was (as you say) delivered in November 1978, and while you
refer to it as the "Tozan of Apology", the Soka Gakkai referred to it as
the "Leaders' Meeting Commemorating the 48th Anniversary of the Soka
Gakkai's Founding." <--- #5.
#5. RC comments: Re. that Nov 7th, 1978 speech given at the Head
Temple, Taisekiji, I have posted the correct information about it so
many times on this thread and the other thread that your COWARDly,
scalded doggish-ass ran away from, "Re. My Letter to the Third President
of the SokaGakkai," that you can get yourself a good seeing-eye dog who
can read it to your old, blind & dumb-ass; but please take a doggie bath
and put on a new flea-collar first, Artie my little MyoDoggie! ROTFL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
>> As I discussed in a previous post, the "apologies" expressed (to the
extent that they were expressed) were not at all in keeping with what
the Nichiren Shoshu priesthood had been led to expect. <--- #6.
#6. RC comments: See above #s 1 to 5.
You ain't doin' No-thin' [Zen] but tryin' to be a little LYING-ASS, low
life conditioned DUMB-ASS slick dog to claim some-thing that you really
know No-thing [Zen] about, FOOL! ROTFL.
"Listen Up"! - Quincy Jones. You have NO facts and are NOT qualified as
a HERETICal "Shoshinkai" Buddhist to be able to say what "the Nichiren
Shoshu priesthood had been led to expect" about "the apologies expressed
(to the extend that they were expressed)" by the Soka Gakkai leaders who
expressed them, which your flea-bitten brain probably never understood
then and still doesn't really understand now over 20 years later, Artie
my little scalded Myodoggie - FOOL! ROTFL.
Suffice to say that the 66th High Priest, Nittatsu Shonin both
acknowledged & accepted those SGI leaders' appologies for the whole
Nichiren Shoshu priesthood just as they were given in person on that
date, Nov. 7th, 1978, just as He expressed Himself in His own speech
there!
However, the fact is that He simply later instructed the NS priesthood
about what to do in the future, just in case the SokaGakkai leadership
or organization ever reneged on their or its' apologies and/or promises
made to Him & the NS priesthood!
---------------------------------------------------------------
>> As Rev. Tono's pamphlet indicates, High Priest Nittatsu Shonin called
a meeting of the priesthood immediately after this meeting, saying "If
the Soka Gakkai makes the same mistakes as were made in the past,
especially over the last two to three years, then we should unite in one
mind, hand in hand, and aggressively reveal their mistakes." <--- #7.
#7. RC comments: See above #s 1 - 6. "Whoops, there it is; whoops,
there it is"!
[sports chant] LOL.
Because, He clearly did NOT call "a meeting of the priesthood" and say
that "... then we should unite in one mind, hand in hand, and
aggressively CRITICIZE their mistakes," FOOL!
To reiterate, He simply later instructed the Nichiren Shoshu priesthood
about what to do in the future, just in case the SokaGakkai leadership
or organization ever reneged on their or its' apologies and/or promises
made to the NS priesthood!
So, thanks for revealing to Arbn readers that you are doing No-thing
[Zen] but MISconstruing what the 66th High Priest actually wrote just in
order to nurse a 20yrs old BIG GRUDGE for the Shoshinkai priests against
the 67th High Priest, Artie my little scalded Myodoggie! ROTFL.
Because, you are really No-thing [Zen] but a heretical hero-worshipper
of that so called "Reverend" Tono Shoshinkai priest who ain't No-thin'
[Zen] but a HST - Heretical Slanderous Traitor to the Nichiren Shoshu's
priesthood & teachings who was justifiably DEFROCKED by the 67th High
Priest for NOT following the guidance of the 66th High Priest, among
other egregious thangs & "Stuff Like That"! - Quincy Jones!
So, since your DUMB-ASS wants to keep dragging the name of that DD -
Dumb DICK-head "Rev Tono" into this dis-cussion, from now on, your
DUMB-ASS has got to defend him, UNless your COWARDly doggish-ass is
No-thing [Zen] but a Dumb DICK-head just like him, too, Artie my little
scalded Myodoggie! ROTFL.
IOW - your hero, the "Right(eous) Reverend" Tono, did NOT know, how to
"Just say NO," and keep his little dickhead out of one of the SGI female
believers, just like the "Right(eous) Reverend Jessie Jackson didn't
know! LOL.
So that's really the main reason why the 67th High Priest told that
Dummo -Tono, that "you've got to Go," FOOL! [rhymes] ROTFL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
>> His subsequent speeches both make the point that it is the
RESPONSIBILITY of priests who see errors to point them out. They are
certainly not a call to refrain from criticizing the Soka Gakkai. <---
#8.
#8. RC comments: UNfortunately, your arrogant & very ignorant, low
life conditioned sorry-ass does NOT have a cent of common sense or a
lick of logic to be able to understand that to "see [the] errors" and
"to point them out" is/was NOT the same thing as "criticizing the
SokaGakkai," Artie my little Myodoggie - FOOL! ROTFL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
See SGI President Daisaku Ikeda's "Reconfirming Our Fundamental Mission"
in The Seikyo Times, May, 1980, No. 227, page 22-23:
http://www.cebunet.com/sgi/reconfirm.html
Furthermore, SGI published
ACTIVITES OF THE SOKA GAKKAI
THE BASICS OF BUDDHIST STUDY
Soka Gakkai Seikyo Times
August, 1979 No. 218, Pages 16-17
---------------------------------------------------------------
>> These were both published after the death of Nittatsu Shonin. <---
#9.
#9. RC comments: So what, FOOL?! LOL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
>> So again, my point is that the actions of Rev. Abe, on assuming the
office of High Priest, were not consistent with the last guidances of
Nittatsu Shonin. <--- #10.
Artie
#10. RC comments: See above #s 1 - 9.
"So again, MY point is that" you ain't doin' No-thin' but proving to
Arbn readers that you are just nursing a 20yr old GRUDGE against the
67th High Priest for one of your HERETICal, SLANDEROUS & TRAITOROUS
Shoshinkai priests, and your just beating a deadhorse to death on that
issue, Artie my little scalded Myodoggie, FOOL! ROTFL.
What your arrogant & very ignorant, LYING-ASS, low life conditioned
DUMB-ASS just fails to be able to comprehend and/or rationalize is the
FACT that "the last guidances of Nittatsu Shonin" really "were NOT
consistent" with each other, because His lectures/speeches were given to
different people in the audiences, at different places, at different
occasions/times and for different reasons during His last few months of
life in this world in 1978 to 1979, Artie my scalded Myodoggie - FOOL!
ROTFL.
War. } : < { 0
--------------------------------------------------------------- --
myo...@my-deja.com
Stoney,
I may be a dog, but (with the possible exception of Mr. Peabody), I'm
one of the world's smarter and better read dogs. It would seem that you
have some problems reading as well. (Do they have laser surgery for
eagles?) I did read Nittatsu Shonin's address, given in November 1978. I
provided you with a series of SUBSEQUENT quotes, which I will except,
still further, below, in the hopes that their point becomes clearer to
you. All quotes come from two published addresses that Nittatsu Shonin
delivered in 1979. Those which did not come from Craig Bratcher's web
site are from a translation of Nittatsu Shonin's address to the General
Danto Tozan. I will repeat my previous offer to provide you with either
the full English translation and / or the original Japanese in the
interests of satisfying your doubts about its authenticity. Really
though, I should insist that you produce someone to concur with you
assertion that I am producing bogus information. Now, please stop
rolling on the floor and read!
Artie
"These priests have pointed out the Soka Gakkai's errors, and, together
with you, have formed the Danto in order to protect Nichiren Shoshu.
Such sincerity is profound. This I wish you to recognize, because true
Kosen-rufu must be accomplished based on the fundamental spirit of
Nichiren Shoshu."
"I hope you will understand this point, but that you will continue, from
this time onward, to pursue and refute erroneous doctrines, thus
protecting Kosen-rufu of the Daishonin's true teaching. This is the very
manifestation of sozoku itchi [oneness of priests and lay believers]. I
want you never to forget this."
"Thus, for the sake of Kosen-rufu, it is disastrous that the Daishonin's
teachings should be mistaken, even slightly. From this time forward, I
want those of you who have become aware of such things, even a bit, to
spread the true teaching toward Kosen-rufu, without taking mistaken
steps off the path of the Daishonin's Buddhism, arm in arm with these
young priests who are here today."
"The priests, therefore, must firmly determine to point out the mistakes
in the doctrinal analyses and, also, to resolutely provide guidance to
the people."
"Always remember that, if someone says something wrong, even though he
is the president or vice-president, if you do not firmly point out the
error, you will not be fulfilling your responsibility as a Nichiren
Shoshu priest. Please make this determination. Those who are members of
the Myokan-kai must embrace this spirit."
jussi
Mr Ikeda mentionned a while back????
Jussi.
"Christopher H. Holte" <lio...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:94kjmr$9jc$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Derek N.P.F. Juhl
Christopher H. Holte <lio...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Worshipping the Dai Gohonzon in person must be a wonderful thing, but
> if a person, on account of principle feels he can't, then standing by
> that principle is probably more important than a trip to the head
> temple.
Made a trip to the Head Temple Taisekiji.
My life force tangibly surges forth each time
I see the Dai-Gohonzon.
This is an undeniable fact that I can attest to
through my own experience,
as can thousands of others.
Those who, out of disbelief,
foolishly criticize us are to be pitied.
The morning sun rises above the majestic Head Temple.
Taisekiji, the wellspring of "Happiness in this World."
With Mount Fuji as its beautiful backdrop,
the Head Temple,
The Eagle Peak of here and now.
Daisaku Ikeda, quoted in the old, outmoded Human Revolution
--
Derek N.P.F. Juhl
http://nwguild.org
http://unionrecord.com
OrchidTigress
greengables
left the Gakkai at the time the Shoshinkai was formed. These people seem
fortunate, however, it is a sad fact that the Shoshinkai were asked to
desist and refused to listen to that guidance thus parting ways with
Nichiren Shoshu.
As I mentioned before there is no shortage of people who were hip to
the Gakkai before 1990-91 and I beleive many of those people rallied
around their temples when they were near a temple realizing that they
had made their Gojukai vows to Nichiren Shoshu and not to the lay
organization.
Principles or grudges it doesn't really matter what you call the
rationale for staying in the Shoshinkai or turning one's back on the
DaiGohonzon, it is still the product of the limited perception of a
common mortal, what is important is one's faith.
Reginald Carpenter
CST+6.
******************************************************
Re: For Artie the scalded MyoDog - get a seeing-eye dog!**
Date: Tue, Jan 23, 2001, 4:45pm (CST+6) From: momo...@my-deja.com
(MOMO)
(Reginald Carpenter) wrote:
(snipped)
3) So, either you are so blind and/or your brain is/was too flea- bitten
to read it and what Nittatsu Shonin Gekka wrote & I quote, speaking to
BOTH the Nichiren Shoshu Priesthood and Soka Gakkai leaders in
attendance on that date/time/place, that:
(snipped)
---------------------------------------------------------------
>> Just a little correction, Reggie [who dat?]; it should be spelled
"Geika" not "Gekka." <--- #1.
#1. RC comments: "Sho' You Right"! - Barry White. LOL.
I stand corrected, Momo! That could have been a "typo," but it was NOT,
although it has been spelled BOTH of those ways, "Geika or Gekka," in
print/publications before! LOL.
Sometimes, I do intentionally make a "mistake" in a message just to see
if someone, anyone, else is really reading it and sharp enough to catch
it, which almost never happens to me; because I'm dealing with mostly
the AAIBVI - Arbn Armchair Internet Buddhist Village IDIOTS here on
Arbn: "Where the Fun Never Stops!" who don't really practice Buddhism or
True Buddhism correctly anyway! ROTFL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
>> Happy New Year! <--- #2.
#2. RC comments: And, a belated Happy New Year 2001 to you and your
mother dear, too!
Please, say "hello" to her for me, and take good cae of yourself, too,
Momo. WorldPeace!
} : < { 0
---------------------------------------------------------------
take care,
momo
Reginald Carpenter
8:43pm CST+6.
Re. your message, all joking aside, I will say to Arbn readers & you
that you've always really seemed to be like an old, honest & reliable
hunting dog on this here ng, Artie my MyoDog! LOL.
Therefore, at your request, I will NOT ROTFL in this message, and will
simply stipulate that all of the quotes you excerpted from one (1) of
the 66th High Priest's speeches, given to the "MyoKan-kai" aka. "General
Danto Tozan" looks accurate to me, but I don't know about the other one!
See RC (my) other comments below in your message. WorldPeace! } : < {
0
******************************************************
Re: For Artie the scalded MyoDog - get a seeing-eye dog!**
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Tue, Jan 23, 2001, 8:43pm (CST+6) From: myo...@my-deja.com
(Reginald Carpenter) wrote:
A quickie for Artie from Stoney. Re. MyoDog posting on 1/22/01 - 3:06am
CST+6; x-ref. to RC (my) posting on 1/23/01 - 2:57am CST. I changed the
subject/title to: Re: For Artie the scalded MyoDog - get a seeing-eye
dog!**
1) First of all, you ran away from the Truth just like a COWARDly little
scalded dog on the other thread, "Re. my Letter to the Third President
of the SokaGakkai" where the 66th High Priest's speech was posted, which
He gave to BOTH the Nichiren Shoshu Priesthood & SokaGakkai leaders on
Nov 7th, 1978 and was published in the World Tribune newspaper dated Feb
5th, 1979!
Either you are too blind or too flea-bitten in your mind to be able to
read it, Artie my MyoDoggie! ROTFL.
Because, He wrote & I quote, that:
"I sincerely hope all of you will STOP CRITICIZING EACH OTHER
........."!
So, you need to go get yourself a good seeing-eye dog to help you to get
these old facts straight; but be sure to take a good doggie bath and
change your 20yr old, too late, flea collar first, FOOL! ROTFL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Stoney,
>> I may be a dog, but (with the possible exception of Mr. Peabody), I'm
one of the world's smarter and better read dogs. <--- #1.
#1. RC comments: Yes, but you're still just an ancient version of a
"Little Bow Wow" (pre-teen rapper) d-o-g, Artie! LOL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
>> It would seem that you have some problems reading as well. (Do they
have laser surgery for eagles?) <--- #2.
#2. RC comments: Answer - NO, and eagles NEVER need "laser (eye)
surgery," my MyoDog! LOL.
Anyway, I'll have you know that I have a pair of Eagle Vision eyeglasses
to wear in my 1997 Chrysler Eagle Vision TSI automobile, which they
don't make NO more, so I have double "eagle vision," sir! LOL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
>> I did read Nittatsu Shonin's address, given in November 1978. <---
#3.
#3. RC comments: Well, if you really did read it, then just why is it
so hard for you to remember the exact date of it, Nov 7th 1978, my old
Myodoggie?! LOL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
>> I provided you with a series of SUBSEQUENT quotes, which I will
except [sic], still further, below, in the hopes that their point
becomes clearer to you. <--- #4.
#4. RC comments: Well, the "point" of the quotes is and always was
"clear" to me, but how to WISELY "point out" any "subsequent" errors to
the SokaGakkai apparently just wasn't made clear enough to those very
idealistic & INexperienced, young pre-Shoshinkai priests or to lay
people like you to understand it, Artie!
---------------------------------------------------------------
All quotes come from two published addresses that Nittatsu Shonin
delivered in 1979. Those which did not come from Craig Bratcher's web
site are from a translation of Nittatsu Shonin's address to the General
Danto Tozan.
>> I will repeat my previous offer to provide you with either the full
English translation and / or the original Japanese in the interests of
satisfying your doubts about its authenticity. <--- #4a.
#4a. RC comments: See above the "cut & paste" of your message.
I've never seen your "previous offer" and some of your other recent
messages on my Arbn bulletin board, but, to reiterate, I stipulate that
the quotes you excerpted from one (1) of the 66th High Priest's speeches
looks accurate to me, but I don't know about the other one, Artie!
---------------------------------------------------------------
>> Really though, I should insist that you produce someone to concur
with you assertion that I am producing bogus information. <--- #5.
#5. RC comments: Heretofore, you have usually just made (posted) a
statement(s) of your "information" or opinion(s) without ANY kind of
evidence or facts in the same message to support them, which is just as
"bogus" or WRONG as your "information" or opinions have been, Artie my
Myodoggie!
---------------------------------------------------------------
>> Now, please stop rolling on the floor and read! <--- #6.
Artie
#6. RC comments: See above your "cut & pasted" message. No Problem!
I have read all of your quotes below in it, Artie my Myodoggie! LOL.
WorldPeace! } : < { 0
---------------------------------------------------------------
"These priests have pointed out the Soka Gakkai's errors, and, together
with you, have formed the Danto in order to protect Nichiren Shoshu.
Such sincerity is profound. This I wish you to recognize, because true
Kosen-rufu must be accomplished based on the fundamental spirit of
Nichiren Shoshu."
"I hope you will understand this point, but that you will continue, from
this time onward, to pursue and refute erroneous doctrines, thus
protecting Kosen-rufu of the Daishonin's true teaching. This is the very
manifestation of sozoku itchi [oneness of priests and lay believers]. I
want you never to forget this."
"Thus, for the sake of Kosen-rufu, it is disastrous that the Daishonin's
teachings should be mistaken, even slightly. From this time forward, I
want those of you who have become aware of such things, even a bit, to
spread the true teaching toward Kosen-rufu, without taking mistaken
steps off the path of the Daishonin's Buddhism, arm in arm with these
young priests who are here today."
"The priests, therefore, must firmly determine to point out the mistakes
in the doctrinal analyses and, also, to resolutely provide guidance to
the people."
"Always remember that, if someone says something wrong, even though he
is the president or vice-president, if you do not firmly point out the
error, you will not be fulfilling your responsibility as a Nichiren
Shoshu priest. Please make this determination. Those who are members of
the Myokan-kai must embrace this spirit."
---------------------------------------------------------------
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Reginald Carpenter
CST+6. I changed the subject/title to: Re: For M.Cody the INsane in
Spain!**
******************************************************
Re: For Derek, Stoney and NS
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
(Cody)
"Mr T" <ne...@bobco.com> escribió en el mensaje
Woof! Grrrr!
Artie
---------------------------------------------------------------
>> Artie, you have always been a reasoned voice up here, and reasoned
voices as we all know, tend to be few and far between. If it's any
consolation, Reggie has called me a pedophile (!) up here, so don't
think that being in another sect makes any difference to him. <--- #1.
Kurt
#1. RC comments: Are You Serious, FOOL?! LOL.
You really meant to say that "Grandpa" Artie, going "Woof" & "Grr!" like
"Little Bow Wow" (pre-teenager rapper) is a "reasoned voice Up here," on
Arbn: "Where the Fun Never Stops!", Mrs Kurtsie T.ruffles the Two-Faced
Possible Pedophile??
Answer - NOT!! And, you sir are No-thing [Zen] but an IDIOT! ROTFL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
>> I can vouch for that! He has called me a few things, too. He seems to
also wait at the arbn door and attack anyone who comes in here. He, too,
though, believe it or not, will eventually become Enlightened. <--- #2.
Cody
#2. RC comments: "Tora, Tora, Tora!" - movie.
Actually, "I just wait at the Arbn door and COUNTER-attack any FOOL who
comes in here," like you, FOOL - MCody the INsane One in Spain, aka. El
MCody de Poco Loco Uno y Espana! ROTFL. War. } : < { 0
Reginald Carpenter
scalded MyoDog - get a seeing-eye dog!**
Per your request, on this mess-age, I stopped ROTFL, and getting my
clothes all dirty, rolling on my cold-ass basement floor! [rhymes]
LOL. WorldPeace! } : < { 0
******************************************************
Re: For Derek, Stoney and NS
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Tue, Jan 23, 2001, 3:26am (CST+6) From: myo...@my-deja.com
In article <94ing0$nbn$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, greengables
<greenga...@my-deja.com> wrote:
As you probably know we have a few ex-Shoshinkai members at our temple.
The reason most of them went to the Shoshinkai was because they were
uncomfortable with the direction of the SGI.
---------------------------------------------------------------
MyoDog:
I know some of them, and some of them know me. Many were uncomfortable
with SGI long before Rev. Abe was. "Discomfort" stems from many reasons,
some doctrinal, some cultural, some personal. I left the Gakkai in 1981,
not because I didn't like the hierarchy, or the brass bands, or the
anti-intellectualism, but because I felt that they were not teaching
Buddhism. For many years, I was not permitted to go on Tozan not because
I was not a member of Nichiren Shoshu, but because I was not a member of
the Soka Gakkai.
>> The Nichiren Shoshu of those days provided no "support" for believers
"uncomfortable" with the Soka Gakkai. <--- #1.
#1. RC comments: UNfortunately, that is/was so true, due to the
Nichiren Shoshu priesthood's reciprocity of support "with the Soka
Gakkai" leaders' and organization's methods of administration &
propagation, and its' financial support of the Head Temple, Taiseki-ji
and it's branch or local temples!
---------------------------------------------------------------
GreenGables:
But you have confused me and I must admit I didn't read your post
carefully. I was under the impression that "danto" was anyone who had
set themselves apart from Nichiren Shoshu and in its pergorative sense
it is so used by the SGI to imply that the current Nichiren Shoshu is a
deviation, although the reverse is true.
---------------------------------------------------------------
MyoDog:
>> I believe that the accurate definition of Danto believer is a
Nichiren Shoshu believer who belongs directly to a temple, and not to a
lay organization. <--- #2.
#2. RC comments: "Sho' You Right"! - Barry White. Enuff said! LOL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
GreenGables:
IMHO one is either Nichiren Shoshu or one is not. There are all sorts of
people who say things like I will never be taiten until I give back the
Gohonzon (which actually sounds like they have are keeping it hostage)
and I will practice on my own, or I don't need the priest or temple or
meetings or I would like to attend other sects as well. But if one
really beleives [sic] in the Heritage of the Law, then there is no
choice but to participate fully in the Nichiren Shoshu.
---------------------------------------------------------------
MyoDog:
I do practice with a priest, trained in the doctrine and spirit of
Nichiren Shoshu. He is the former chief priest of your very temple, and
a Nichiren Shoshu priest until the late '70s when Rev. Abe
excommunicated him. The 200+ priests who formed the Shoshinkai were all
trained by Nittatsu Shonin, or his predecessors.
Personally, I would not accept Rev. Abe's direction even if he had
legitimately received the Heritage. I do not believe that he did and no
one has provided any objective evidence that he did (hopefully to be the
subject of a post - hopefully sooner, rather than later). The doctrine
we study is strictly within the tradition of Nichiren Shoshu. You should
also know that Rev. Tono has offered to debate publicly with Rev.
Nagasaka, an offer which he has failed to accept.
It is easy to speak simplisticly about the Heritage of the Law, but it
is a concept which is far more profound than anything you or I am
capable of discussing at this point in our faiths. The present situation
is not a happy one for me, and it is not a happy one for the Shoshinkai
priests, but they are carrying out their faith as they have been taught.
---------------------------------------------------------------
This danto tozan is not a practice I have heard of lately but also not
such a bad idea. And one mustn't forget that Soka Gakkai and the Hokkeko
were not the only lay organizations of Nichiren Shoshu who had organized
tozans. The SGI would not like anyone to know about the existence of
other groups because their claim to fame was to be the number one lay
organization because of the amount of shakabuku they did and the
revenues they generated. I think it would be fine if the SGI were
allowed a tozan, it might wake up a
---------------------------------------------------------------
>> <did I cut you off?> <--- #3.
#3. RC comments: NO, that is just her old bad habit where the
absent-minded, old professor-ess/Doctor-ess GreenGabby falls off to
sleep while trying to post and/or just forgets to finish her own
messages - it's the early stages of Alzheimer's disease, you know, Artie
my Myodoggie! LOL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Danto tozan is not a practice. Tozan may be a practice. Danto is a
classification of practitioner. By Tozan, I assume you mean
participating in the Gokaihi ceremony.
>> Your paragraph could spark discussions of several issues - whether
worshiping the Dai Gohonzon in person is an essential part of practice
(as opposed to accepting and embracing the Dai Gohonzon) (I think not),
<--- #4.
#4. RC comments: Well, that Arbn rookie poster woe-man, Dr.
GreenGabby, just gets too d-a-m-ned word giddy sometimes, and she tends
to just over-intellectualize basic, simple facts and gets herself
painted into theoretical corners that she doesn't know how to get
herself out of; then she'll just panic & run off and forget to finish
her mess-ages! LOL.
Suffice to say that "I think not" - you are WRONG, Artie, my MyoDoggie!
LOL.
Because, "worshipping the Dai-Gohonzon in person" IS "an essential part
of the practice," and "accepting & embracing the Dai-Gohonzon" and
Gohonzon of the Nichiren Shoshu faith/religion IS "an essential part of
the practice," too!
So they are BOTH "an essential part of the practice," and are NOT
"opposed" to each other, Artie my MyoDoggie! LOL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
>> and whether it is appropriate to allow other sects (in which class I
place the Soka Gakkai) to worship the Dai Gohonzon in person (again, I
think not). #5.
#5. RC comments: See above #s 2 & 4.
"Whoops, there it is; whoops, there it is"! - sports chant. LOL.
That is where the professor-ess/Doctor-ess painted herself into a
theoretical corner and panicked when she didn't know how to get herself
out of it, so she just ran off from it and didn't finish her mess-age!
LOL.
So suffice to say again that she is/was WRONG there and you are/were
Right, Artie my MyoDoggie!
Because, it is STRICTly against the policy or rules of the Nichiren
Shoshu Head Temple to allow ANY HERETICal Buddhists or non-Buddhists,
like believers/members of that new-aged SGI/NSS (mess!) CULT of Ikeda's
Personality Dis-Order Worshippers' religio-politico Dis-Organization, to
go on Tozan "to worship the Dai-Gohonzon in person," period!
But, I think that the absent-minded, old professoress/Doctoress
GreenGabby just fell asleep & forgot about that again! LOL. WorldPeace!
} : < { 0
---------------------------------------------------------------
I wish I had the time to pursue these, but, unfortunately, I do not.
Artie
myo...@my-deja.com
Note: This response was composed in Word, so rather than relying on
quote marks, I have prefaced each section by the name of its author.
Greengables:
Thanks for your reply. Obviously my optimism about the DaiGohonzon is
beyond what is acceptable and I know that there are good reasons for
that. However, anyone who joins the temple can see the DaiGohonzon.
Perhaps you are so enmeshed in the Shoshinkai now you could never leave
but I would suggest talking to someone at Myosetsuji. Do you think you
might be holding a grudge against High Priest Nikken Shonin or Reverend
Nagasaka?
Artie:
I wasn't questioning your "optimism" about the Dai Gohonzon. Given my
own lack of expertise, I hesitate to expound on issues regarding the Dai
Gohonzon, but I don't believe that it is correct to view the Dai
Gohonzon as some sort of magical object that will change slanderers into
believers. I don't believe that the objective of the traditional
Nichiren Shoshu was ever to "show" the Dai Gohonzon to as many people as
possible. It may be that anyone who joins Nichiren Shoshu can "see" the
Dai Gohonzon, and I know of people who have joined for that express
reason, but the precept of this Buddhism is to accept and embrace the
Dai Gohonzon, not to see it, not even to "chant to it", unless that
"chanting" is born of faith and reverence. I find statements such as
yours to be almost like using the Dai Gohonzon as "bait" in order to
draw people to the temple. Even if I was to be invited to see the Dai
Gohonzon without joining the current Nichiren Shoshu (not that I ever
"unjoined"), I do not believe I would be willing to participate in a
ceremony conducted by Rev. Abe.
I don't think I'm "enmeshed" in Shoshinkai. I do believe that they most
faithfully convey the traditional teachings of Nichiren Shoshu, and I
certainly feel a good deal of well-deserved personal loyalty to Rev.
Tono. I'd like to think that I would forsake that loyalty, were I to
believe that the true teaching existed elsewhere, but, frankly, I have
been given little reason to believe that to be the case.
I have no personal feelings about Rev. Nagasaka. I have never met him. I
understand that he is a personable man, but that's not what I look for
in a priest. From what I've heard, he seems willing to speak to
individuals one-on-one, regarding Rev. Tono, and to refer to certain
unspecified documents (in Japanese), but he has been, so far, unwilling
to confront or debate Rev. Tono in person and in public, or make
available copies of these documents. This posture does not strike me as
consistent with traditional Nichiren Shoshu teaching on refuting
slander.
As for Rev. Abe, I have a number of problems with actions that he has
taken with respect to the faith, and with respect to believers. It was
he who required that all overseas believers be members of the Soka
Gakkai; it was he who forbade the Danto to meet at Taisekiji and forbade
the priests to attend their meeting, regardless of where it was held; it
was he who punished those priests who attended anyway; it was he who
forbade priests to criticize the Soka Gakkai (no matter the teachings of
the Daishonin or the charge of Nittatsu Shonin); it was he who
eviscerated the priests' congress and judiciary when it appeared they
would oppose his actions; it was he who responded to questions about the
legitimacy of his succession by punishing and then expelling his
questioners (while never answering their questions); it was he who
restored Mr. Ikeda to the position of Sokoto (from which he had resigned
in 1979); it was he who allowed Mr. Ikeda's sham of resigning as
president of the Soka Gakkai, only to reemerge as president of Soka
Gakkai International, to go unchallenged; it was he who provided
expedited training and ordination to Soka Gakkai members in order to
replace the priests he had expelled. (That is one chicken that has come
home to roost.) And, on top of that, I understand there to be serious
doctrinal issues with his teachings (though I don't consider myself
qualified to discuss them). I don't think that my unwillingness to
respect or follow him fits the definition of a "grudge".
Greengables:
Danto is just a word, and as i said it is a word that has taken on a
new meaning as it is used by the SGI in their onslaught against us.
Artie:
What you mean "us" keem-o-sabe? Soka Gakkai and Nichiren Shoshu were
united in their onslaught against the then Danto movement and
Shoshinkai.
Greengables:
I do think that worshipping the DaiGohonzon in person is essential to
this practice, although the SGI certainly don't.
Artie:
Rev. Tono has taught us that, prior to any incarnation of the Gakkai,
Tozan was mainly a pilgrimage for the purposes of serving the priests
and seeking the Teaching, not to view the Dai Gohonzon - that, in fact,
directly viewing the Dai Gohonzon was not a regular part of a pilgrimage
to Taisekiji. Emphasizing the aspect of seeing the Dai Gohonzon may have
originally been an approach used by the Soka Gakkai to try to provide
financial support for the Taisekiji.
Greengables:
Obviously the priesthood tried to patch things up with the Soka Gakkai
after the Line of 77 and why shoudln't they have been given a chance.
Nichiren Shoshu is perhaps not as strident as the Shoshinkai, I don't
know.
Artie:
They were given a chance. Part of this whole thread has dealt with the
difference in Nittatsu Shonin's speeches between 1978 and 1979. His
guidance became stricter as he realized that the Soka Gakkai leadership
was not earnest about correcting their errors.
If, by "strident", you mean "strict", I'll agree, and take it (on their
behalf) as a compliment. The Daishonin was "strident", as well.
Greengables:
The situation was complicated by the fact that there were two High
Priests. Your point, I take it, is that the two High Priests had
approached the situation differently, but what you might consider is
that consistency in the flow of the Law means making correct decisions
which accord with the time, for example in matters of excommunication.
The High Priest who inherits the specific transmission from Nichiren
Daishonin is
the person most likely to teach the Law correctly for any age. As for
your doubt about the transmission you have no choice but to doubt
because if you did beleive in the Heritage of the Law then you could not
turn your back on High Priest Nikken Shonin. If he was not a legitimate
successor to Nittasu Shonin would the priesthood or the SGI have
remained silent about that-- this is a leap of logic that seems rather
Artie:
That's a mouthful.
Well, for starters, the two men certainly approached the situation
differently. What is curious, though, is that Rev. Abe insisted that
his actions were merely a continuation of those of Nittatsu Shonin. He
tried to confer on his actions, the legitimacy of Nittatsu Shonin, but
their policies were so obviously different. My "point" was to show that,
despite his claim of consistency with Nittatsu Shonin's teachings on the
matter, Rev. Abe, as High Priest, required that priests ignore the
guidance and directions of Nittatsu Shonin, and, further, that he
punished those who did not.
I don't, at all, get what you mean with respect to excommunication and
"the time". Are you saying that Nittatsu Shonin might have preferred to
excommunicate the Shoshinkai or the Soka Gakkai, but that the time was
wrong? Are you saying that the '80s was the time to try to coddle the
Soka Gakkai, but the '90s was the time to excommunicate them? I can't
respond to ambiguity.
The High Priest is the person "most likely" to teach the Law correctly?
Are we studying spiritual probability here?
For your reference, I left the Sokagakkai, and discontinued my
attendance at the Flushing Temple before I knew that there were
questions about the legitimacy of Rev. Abe's succession. It was obvious
to me that Nichiren Shoshu and the Soka Gakkai were "in cahoots", and I
wanted no part of either of them. As I've said, I would not follow Rev.
Abe if it were proved to me that he did legitimately receive the
Heritage from Nittatsu Shonin. That doesn't mean that I believe his
succession to be legitimate. I would think that those of you who place
such a great emphasis on his claimed succession would, at least, have
tried to obtain some empirical, or even circumstantial, proof of the
act. You may be interested to know that, in the history of Nichiren
Shoshu, there was a High Priest (58th High Priest, Nitchu Shonin), who,
despite his unquestioned succession, was widely rejected by the
priesthood, including several retired High Priests, and ultimately
forced to retire (more on that in some other post).
As for the "silence" of the priesthood and the Soka Gakkai with regard
to the matter of succession, I'm not quite sure how you come to portray
the raising of questions by 1/3 of the priesthood, followed by their
punishment and excommunication as silence. As for the Soka Gakkai, Rev.
Abe was a breath of fresh air when compared to Nittatsu Shonin. They
couldn't have asked for better. (I remember the good old days, when Soka
Gakkai members could not stop talking about how "clear" his Gohonzon
was, compared to Nittatsu Shonin's, and how all members with a certain
duration of membership could receive a "new" Okatagi Gohonzon.) More
recently, there have been references to these questions in Soka Gakkai
publications, but Soka Gakkai is, as always, in a difficult situation.
It is hard for them to question the legitimacy of Rev. Abe's succession
when they were in court together, hand in hand defending him against
suits brought by the Shoshinkai priests. Also, because there was no
other priest, claiming to have received the Heritage, it was difficult
to question the veracity of Rev. Abe's assertion. It was not a question
of choosing between his account and someone else's; there was no one who
could claim to know, for a fact, that he did not receive the Heritage.
Rather, it was (and is) a matter of asserting that his claim does not
make sense, that neither the facts nor the traditions and bylaws of
Nichiren Shoshu suggest such a transfer actually took place, and that
there is no objective evidence that it took place.
I must admit that your technique of ending your posts with a partial
sentence is intriguing. The first time, I saw it, I though I had made a
mistake, but
Reginald Carpenter
8:53pm CST+6.
I changed the subject/title to: Re: For Artie the CULTie SSK -
Sho-Stinky-Kai scalded MyoDog!**
******************************************************
Re: For Derek, Stoney and NS
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Sun, Jan 28, 2001, 8:53pm (CST+6) From: myo...@my-deja.com
In article <94kfi6$5gn$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, greengables
<greenga...@my-deja.com> wrote:
Note: This response was composed in Word, so rather than relying on
quote marks, I have prefaced each section by the name of its author.
Greengables:
Thanks for your reply. Obviously my optimism about the DaiGohonzon is
beyond what is acceptable and I know that there are good reasons for
that. However, anyone who joins the temple can see the DaiGohonzon.
Perhaps you are so enmeshed in the Shoshinkai now you could never leave
but I would suggest talking to someone at Myosetsuji. Do you think you
might be holding a grudge against High Priest Nikken Shonin or Reverend
Nagasaka?
Artie:
I wasn't questioning your "optimism" about the Dai Gohonzon. Given my
own lack of expertise, I hesitate to expound on issues regarding the Dai
Gohonzon, but I don't believe that it is correct to view the Dai
Gohonzon as some sort of magical object that will change slanderers into
believers.
>> I don't believe that the objective of the traditional Nichiren Shoshu
was ever to "show" the Dai Gohonzon to as many people as possible. <---
#1.
#1. RC comments: "Sho' You Right"! - Barry White. LOL.
Because, the Dai-Gohonzon is NOT a "show piece," just to show It "to as
many people as possible," and that is/was NOT the Daishonin's objective
or purpose for inscribing It, FOOL! LOL.
It is only supposed to be shown to Nichiren Shoshu believers who are
members of the Hokkeko and so called "direct temple believers" - Danto
members - who all must first (1st) have permission from their local
chief priest to see It in order to worship It!
---------------------------------------------------------------
>> It may be that anyone who joins Nichiren Shoshu can "see" the Dai
Gohonzon, and I know of people who have joined for that express reason,
but the precept of this Buddhism is to accept and embrace the Dai
Gohonzon, not to see it, not even to "chant to it", unless that
"chanting" is born of faith and reverence. <--- #2.
#2. RC comments: Your arrogant & ignorant, low life conditioned, little
doggish-ass is merely clouding UP the issue just like a little doggie
panting your hot, moist breathe on to a cool, dry window, Artie my
Myodoggie! LOL.
Because, "this Buddhism" which you really know so d-a-m-ned little
about, the Nichiren Shoshu, does NOT demand, require or expect that
anyone "accept & embrace the Dai-Gohonzon" or Gohonzon and "NOT [be able
or allowed] to see it;" and that's No-thing [Zen] but NON-sense, FOOL!
ROTFL.
However, it does demand, require or expect that anyone who accepts the
faith must embrace the basic PRACTICE too of faith, practice & study!
Excerpt from the "Nichiren Shoshu Buddhism - An Introduction" pamphlet.
"Accepting the Faith" (last part of pamphlet)
"After a person has decided to take faith in Nichiren Shoshu Buddhism
and relinquish other faiths, he/she participates in an acceptance
ceremony called Gojukai. In this ceremony, the individual pledges to
embrace the practice throughout his/her life and steadfastly carry out
the basics of faith, practice and study. The applicant may then request
a personal Gohonzon from the Chief Priest of his/her local tmeple which
will be enshrined in the home."
[copyright pending 6/6/93 NST]
---------------------------------------------------------------
>> I find statements such as yours to be almost like using the Dai
Gohonzon as "bait" in order to draw people to the temple. Even if I was
to be invited to see the Dai Gohonzon without joining the current
Nichiren Shoshu (not that I ever "unjoined"), I do not believe I would
be willing to participate in a ceremony conducted by Rev. Abe. <--- #3.
#3. RC comments: Well, "I find statements such as yours to be almost"
IDIOTIC, Artie my Myodoggie! LOL.
Furthermore, your arrogant & ignorant, low life conditioned, doggish
sorry-ass would never "be invited to see the Dai-Gohonzon ... to
participate in a ceremony conducted by Rev. Abe," because you are a
HERETICal NON-believer of that HERETICAL ShoShinKai CULT religion, nka.
the SSK - "Sho-Stinky-Kai" and there is NO "Rev. Abe," except for the
person who is a chief priest and the son of the 67th High Priest, Nikken
Shonin! ROTFL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
>> I don't think I'm "enmeshed" in Shoshinkai. <--- #4.
#4. RC comments: No, I think that you are just simply BRAINWASHED
CULTie involved with a little HERETICal CULT named the SSK -
Sho-Shin-Kai, nka. Sho-Stinky-Kai! ROTFL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
>> I do believe that they most faithfully convey the traditional
teachings of Nichiren Shoshu, and I certainly feel a good deal of
well-deserved personal loyalty to Rev. Tono. <--- #5.
#5. RC comments: Well, since "I do believe that they most" certainly
are all EX-priests of the Nichiren Shoshu who were all individually &
justifiably EX-COMMUNICATED from it about the year 1980, then "I
certainly feel [that] a good deal of [anyone's] ... personal loyalty to
Rev. Tono" is "well-deserved" to call it a CULT, SSK - Sho-Shin-Kai,
nka. Sho-Stinky-Kai just a little HERETICal CULT of Personality
Worshippers! ROTFL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
I'd like to think that I would forsake that loyalty, were I to believe
that the true teaching existed elsewhere, but, frankly, I have been
given little reason to believe that to be the case.
>> I have no personal feelings about Rev. Nagasaka. I have never met
him. I understand that he is a personable man, but that's not what I
look for in a priest. From what I've heard, he seems willing to speak to
individuals one-on-one, regarding Rev. Tono, and to refer to certain
unspecified documents (in Japanese), but he has been, so far, unwilling
to confront or debate Rev. Tono in person and in public, or make
available copies of these documents. This posture does not strike me as
consistent with traditional Nichiren Shoshu teaching on refuting
slander. <--- #6.
#6. RC comments: Well, since your arrogant & ignorant, low life
conditioned, doggish sorry-ass is so much of a DUMB-ASS & CULT of
Personality Worshipper of that arrogant & ignorant, low life
conditioned, doggish sorry-ass known as "Rev. Tono," who committed a
No-no and had to Go-go from the Nichiren Shoshu priesthood for f*ckin' a
Hoe-hoe, you're just too much of a COWARDly scalded dog to go to meet
Rev. Nagasaka of NST - Myosetsuji yourself, Artie my Myodoggie! ROTFL.
So, Listen Up, FOOL! The UNRight-eous Reverend JJT - "Jesse Jackson
Tono" don't wanna go-no where near Rev. Nagasaka to "confront or debate"
him; because he would merely cut thru that Dummo Tono just as easily as
a hot knife cuts thru soft butter and have his doggish sorry-ass running
away from him like a scalded dog, just like I do to you on Arbn: "Where
the Fun Never Stops!", Artie my Myodoggie! So, you can just Forget
About It, FOOL! ROTFL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
As for Rev. Abe, I have a number of problems with actions that he has
taken with respect to the faith, and with respect to believers. It was
he who required that all overseas believers be members of the Soka
Gakkai; it was he who forbade the Danto to meet at Taisekiji and forbade
the priests to attend their meeting, regardless of where it was held; it
was he who punished those priests who attended anyway; it was he who
forbade priests to criticize the Soka Gakkai (no matter the teachings of
the Daishonin or the charge of Nittatsu Shonin); it was he who
eviscerated the priests' congress and judiciary when it appeared they
would oppose his actions; it was he who responded to questions about the
legitimacy of his succession by punishing and then expelling his
questioners (while never answering their questions); it was he who
restored Mr. Ikeda to the position of Sokoto (from which he had resigned
in 1979); it was he who allowed Mr. Ikeda's sham of resigning as
president of the Soka Gakkai, only to reemerge as president of Soka
Gakkai International, to go unchallenged; it was he who provided
expedited training and ordination to Soka Gakkai members in order to
replace the priests he had expelled. (That is one chicken that has come
home to roost.) And, on top of that, I understand there to be serious
doctrinal issues with his teachings (though I don't consider myself
qualified to discuss them).
>> I don't think that my unwillingness to respect or follow him fits the
definition of a "grudge". <--- #7.
#7. RC comments: Well, since you are No-thing [Zen] but a BRAINWASHED
CULT member of that HERETICal CULT called the SSK - Sho-Shin-Kai, nka.
Sho-Stinky-Kai, then "I don't think" that you can really think or are
even allowed to think on your own, Artie my Myodoggie! ROTFL.
Grudge: "ill will; dislike." [ref. - Webster's Dictionary, New Revised
Edition, copyright 1976, 1994 by Lewtan Publishing Company]
Therefore, since EVERYthing that you've ever said/written about has
shown an intense ILL WILL & DISLIKE towards the 67th High Priest, Nikken
Shonin whom you deliberately & purposely always refer to Him in a
derogatory manner as "Rev. Abe," then you are No-thing [Zen] but a
d-a-m-ned BIG LIAR & HYPOCRITE, Artie you COWARDly scalded little
Myodoggie!
Furthermore, you have violated my airspace in cyberspace* to insult the
dignity & integrity of the 67th High Priest, Nikken Shonin Geika and the
Nichiren Shoshu priesthood & religion! And, I am NOT a tolerator of ANY
violators!
---------------------------------------------------------------
Greengables:
Danto is just a word, and as i said it is a word that has taken on a new
meaning as it is used by the SGI in their onslaught against us.
Artie:
What you mean "us" keem-o-sabe? Soka Gakkai and Nichiren Shoshu were
united in their onslaught against the then Danto movement and
Shoshinkai.
Greengables:
I do think that worshipping the DaiGohonzon in person is essential to
this practice, although the SGI certainly don't.
Artie:
>> Rev. Tono has taught us that, prior to any incarnation of the Gakkai,
Tozan was mainly a pilgrimage for the purposes of serving the priests
and seeking the Teaching, not to view the Dai Gohonzon - that, in fact,
directly viewing the Dai Gohonzon was not a regular part of a pilgrimage
to Taisekiji. <--- #8.
#8. RC comments: See above #1.
Well, "there you go again"! - ex-president Ronald Reagan. LOL.
"There you go again," just like a typical HBC - HYPOCRITICAL BRAINWASHED
CULTie, telling Arbn readers what your SSK - Sho-Shin-Kai, nka.
Sho-Stinky-Kai CULT High Priest Dummo Tono, nka. the UNRight-eous JJT -
"Jesse Jackson Tono" done taught you again, Artie my Myodoggie! ROTFL.
Because, in a CULT of Personality Worshippers like yours, you do NOT
have any real doctrines or teachings except those which come directly
out of the demented mind & mouth of your CULT master, Rev. Dummo Tono;
and you are just a BRAINWASHED & STUPID CULTie to believe ANYthing that
he wants you to believe is the truth, Artie my Myodoggie - FOOL! "How
pitiful, how pitiful!" - Nichiren Daishonin.
Regardless of that, suffice to say that the UnRight-eous "Reverend Jesse
Jackson Tono" really don't know what in the H-e-l-l he's talking about,
FOOL! ROTFL.
Because, like I stated above, "that, in FACT, directly viewing
[worshipping] the Dai-Gohonzon was NOT a regular part of a pilgrimage to
Taisekiji," UNless you were a HOKKE-KO believer & member with the
permission of your local chief priest!
So, just what part of that, HOKKE-KO, don't you understand, "pilgrim,"
Artie my Myodoggie?! ROTFL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
>> Emphasizing the aspect of seeing the Dai Gohonzon may have originally
been an approach used by the Soka Gakkai to try to provide financial
support for the Taisekiji. <--- #9.
#9. RC comments: Well, UNfortunately, "Sho' You Right" about that,
Artie my Myodoggie!
BUT, don't forget about "emphasizing the aspect" that the Soka Gakkai,
using that approach later on, really used the Nichiren Shoshu religion
itself, especially "seeing the Dai-Gohonzon" itself, to try to "provide
financial support for" itself, the Soka Gakkai! And, it did get rich &
support itself! LOL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Greengables:
Obviously the priesthood tried to patch things up with the Soka
Gakkai after the Line of 77 and why shoudln't they have been given a
chance. Nichiren Shoshu is perhaps not as strident as the Shoshinkai, I
don't know.
Artie:
They were given a chance. Part of this whole thread has dealt with the
difference in Nittatsu Shonin's speeches between 1978 and 1979.
>> His guidance became stricter as he realized that the Soka Gakkai
leadership was not earnest about correcting their errors. <--- #10.
#10. RC comments: Well, that is No-thing [Zen] but a BIG LIE &
MISconstruction of what He actually said/wrote in his speeches in 1979
compared with them in 1978!
Because, as referred to below in part #11, the "Notice from the Head
Temple, Taisekiji" which quoted from one of the last speeches He ever
gave in His lifetime:
"The former high priest also stated in his May 3rd [1979] speech, "I
myself have been trying to be understanding toward the Soka Gakkai,
whose function is to protect and support Nichiren Shoshu from the
outside. And I am RESOLVED to REMAIN as understanding FROM NOW ON,
too!"
"Since we all believe in the same Buddhism, please be friendly with one
another. Let's overcome whatever happened in the past, and I hope we
will all unite and that you will cooperate with us for the development
of Nichiren Shoshu and kosen-rufu."
--------------------------------------------------------------
If, by "strident", you mean "strict", I'll agree, and take it (on their
behalf) as a compliment. The Daishonin was "strident", as well.
Greengables:
The situation was complicated by the fact that there were two High
Priests. Your point, I take it, is that the two High Priests had
approached the situation differently, but what you might consider is
that consistency in the flow of the Law means making correct decisions
which accord with the time, for example in matters of excommunication.
The High Priest who inherits the specific transmission from Nichiren
Daishonin is the person most likely to teach the Law correctly for any
age. As for your doubt about the transmission you have no choice but to
doubt because if you did beleive [sic] in the Heritage of the Law then
you could not turn your back on High Priest Nikken Shonin. If he was not
a legitimate successor to Nittasu Shonin would the priesthood or the SGI
have remained silent about that-- this is a leap of logic that seems
rather
Artie:
That's a mouthful.
Well, for starters, the two men certainly approached the situation
differently.
>> What is curious, though, is that Rev. Abe insisted that his actions
were merely a continuation of those of Nittatsu Shonin. <--- #11.
#11. RC comments: That's NOT "curious; that's a FACT, FOOL! LOL.
Excerpt from a "Notice from the Head Temple, Taisekiji", published in
the World Tribune newspaper, dated November 12, 1979 issue #2247, page
#8:
headnotes: "Based upon the intent of the High Priest Nikken Shonin, the
Nichiren Shoshu Administration issued a notice on Oct 8, 1979, to give
direction to BOTH priesthood and laity.
This notice contains the following three points:
1. The attitude of the Nichiren Shoshu toward the Soka Gakkai will
REMAIN the SAME as it was under the former High Priest, Nittatsu Shonin.
2. The priesthood must adhere to its' original vow to "aspire for
enlightenment and convert people to true Buddhism," and resolve with the
spirit of compassion to follow these fundamental guidelines under the
high priest toward the harmonious unity of priests and laity.
3. The Soka Gakkai must continue to give a thorough explanation of the
so-called June 30, 1978 and November 7, 1978 agreements (both appear in
the February 5, 1979 issue of the World Tribune) to its entire
membership so that each member can understand the background, meaning,
content and spirit of the agreements." [end of headnotes]
Furthermore, under point #1 in the article, it quoted from Nittatsu
Shonin's Nov. 7th, 1978 speech in which He wrote & I quote, that:
"I sincerely hope [that] ALL of you priests & laity] WILL STOP
CRITICIZING EACH OTHER and, ... "
Furthermore, under point #1 in the article, it quoted from Nittatsu
Shonin's May 3rd, 1979 speech in which He wrote & I quoted above in part
#10.
So, in FACT, the 67th High Priest, Nikken Shonin's AND the Nichiren
Shoshu Administration's (board members) were all "actions [that] were
merely a continuation of those of Nittatsu Shonin," Artie my Myodoggie -
FOOL! ROTFL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
>> He tried to confer on his actions, the legitimacy of Nittatsu Shonin,
but their policies were so obviously different. <--- #12.
#12. RC comments: Same as above #10s & 11. That is No-thing [Zen] but a
d-a-m-ned BIG LIE & MISconstruction of what Nittatsu Shonin actually
wrote & I quoted from in His two (2) speeches; because, as even a FOOL
can see, "their policies" given only a few months apart in the year 1979
toward the Soka Gakkai "were so obviously NO different," Artie my
Myodoggie - FOOL! ROTFL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
>> My "point" was to show that, despite his claim of consistency with
Nittatsu Shonin's teachings on the matter, Rev. Abe, as High Priest,
required that priests ignore the guidance and directions of Nittatsu
Shonin, and, further, that he punished those who did not. <--- #13.
#13. RC comments: Same as above #s 10-12.
You really meant to say that "my BIG LIE was to show that, ... ", you
BIG LIAR - Artie the LYING-ASS Myodoggie!
---------------------------------------------------------------
I don't, at all, get what you mean with respect to excommunication and
"the time". Are you saying that Nittatsu Shonin might have preferred to
excommunicate the Shoshinkai or the Soka Gakkai, but that the time was
wrong? Are you saying that the '80s was the time to try to coddle the
Soka Gakkai, but the '90s was the time to excommunicate them? I can't
respond to ambiguity.
The High Priest is the person "most likely" to teach the Law correctly?
Are we studying spiritual probability here? For your reference, I left
the Sokagakkai, and discontinued my attendance at the Flushing Temple
before I knew that there were questions about the legitimacy of Rev.
Abe's succession. It was obvious to me that Nichiren Shoshu and the Soka
Gakkai were "in cahoots", and I wanted no part of either of them.
>> As I've said, I would not follow Rev. Abe if it were proved to me
that he did legitimately receive the Heritage from Nittatsu Shonin. <---
#14.
#14. RC comments: Same as above #7.
You ain't doin' No-thin' [Zen] but showin' what a BIG GRUDGE your
arrogant & ignorant, low life conditioned, doggish sorry-ass really has
against the 67th High Priest, Nikken Shonin for the past EXCOMMUNICATION
of your present CULT, the SSK - Sho-Shin-Kai, nka. Sho-Stinky-Kai and
it's head guru, the UNRight-eous Reverend "Jesse Jackson Tono" who has
apparently just been feeding all of your CULTie DUMB-ASSes his own kind
of "grilled government cheese sandwiches" too, Artie my Myodoggie!
ROTFL. ---------------------------------------------------------------
That doesn't mean that I believe his succession to be legitimate. I
would think that those of you who place such a great emphasis on his
claimed succession would, at least, have tried to obtain some empirical,
or even circumstantial, proof of the act. You may be interested to know
that, in the history of Nichiren Shoshu, there was a High Priest (58th
High Priest, Nitchu Shonin), who, despite his unquestioned succession,
was widely rejected by the priesthood, including several retired High
Priests, and ultimately forced to retire (more on that in some other
post). As for the "silence" of the priesthood and the Soka Gakkai with
regard to the matter of succession, I'm not quite sure how you come to
portray the raising of questions by 1/3 of the priesthood, followed by
their punishment and excommunication as silence. As for the Soka Gakkai,
Rev. Abe was a breath of fresh air when compared to Nittatsu Shonin.
They couldn't have asked for better. (I remember the good old days, when
Soka Gakkai members could not stop talking about how "clear" his
Gohonzon was, compared to Nittatsu Shonin's, and how all members with a
certain duration of membership could receive a "new" Okatagi Gohonzon.)
More recently, there have been references to these questions in Soka
Gakkai publications, but Soka Gakkai is, as always, in a difficult
situation. It is hard for them to question the legitimacy of Rev. Abe's
succession when they were in court together, hand in hand defending him
against suits brought by the Shoshinkai priests.
>> Also, because there was no other priest, claiming to have received
the Heritage, it was difficult to question the veracity of Rev. Abe's
assertion. <--- #15.
#15. RC comments: Well, that's because the fact of the matter is that
there IS/WAS "NO other priest," alive or dead now, who ever claimed "to
have received the [specific] Heritage" of the Law from the 66th High
Priest, Nittatsu Shonin!
Because, that Never Happen-ed to anyone except "Rev. Abe" who became the
67th High Priest, Nikken Shonin. Duh, Artie my Myodoggie - FOOL?!
ROTFL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
It was not a question of choosing between his account and someone
else's; there was no one who could claim to know, for a fact, that he
did not receive the Heritage.
>> Rather, it was (and is) a matter of asserting that his claim does not
make sense, that neither the facts nor the traditions and bylaws of
Nichiren Shoshu suggest such a transfer actually took place, and that
there is no objective evidence that it took place. <--- #16.
#16. RC comments: NO, "rather, it was (and is) is [just] a matter of
asserting that" the SSK - Sho-Shin-Kai, nka. Sho-Stinky-Kai CULT's
claim(s) about the 67th High Priest, Nikken Shonin, "does NOT make ANY
d-a-m-ned SENSE," FOOL! ROTFL.
And, I am asserting that you all are such BIG LIARS and d-a-m-ned FOOLS
who do NOT really know what in the H-e-l-l you're talking about that you
all NEVER will, Artie my Myodoggie! ROTFL.
Because, the FACTS are that in "the tradition and bylaws of [the]
Nichiren Shoshu," the "transfer actually took place," AND "there IS
objective evidence that it took place"!
Listen Up, FOOL! As I wrote before, the 66th High Priest, Nittatsu
Shonin gave all of the pertinent information to the Nichiren Shoshu
Temple Administration BEFORE His death regarding His selection &
transfer of the Law to the 67th High Priest, Nikken Shonin for it to be
recorded into a Nichiren Shoshu record book AFTER His death where all of
the other sixty-six (66) transfers of the successive High Priests are
recorded, too!
FYI - a record book = "objective evidence," Artie my Myodoggie - FOOL!
ROTFL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
>> I must admit that your technique of ending your posts with a partial
sentence is intriguing. <--- #17.
#17. RC comments: Well, "I must admit that YOUR technique" of writing
these DUMB-ASS, long, low life conditioned LYING-ASS mess-ages or "posts
with" NO kind of "objective evidence" to support them, which is No-thing
[Zen] but PROPAGANDA or mere rhetoric, does tend to make ANYone doze off
to sleep "with a partial sentence" left to finish, Artie my Myodoggie!
ROTFL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
>> The first time, I saw it, I though I had made a mistake, but <---
#18.
Artie
#18: RC comments: See above #17. But Artie, ain't that "intriguing" -
you just did it to your own DUMB-ASS, too! ROTFL. War. } : < { 0
---------------------------------------------------------------
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Reginald Carpenter
3:06am CST+6. I changed the subject/title to: For MyoDog re. SSK - the
ShoStinkyKai priests - deserters/traitors!**
******************************************************
Re: For Derek, Stoney and NS
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
In article <94g5fv$hdo$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, greengables
<greenga...@my-deja.com> wrote:
Using "danto tozan" in this manner is an oxymoron.The Nichiren Shoshu
believers do attend Gokaihi Ceremony, danto groups which are outside of
Nichiren Shoshu and who are not members of Nichiren Shoshu do not attend
Taisekiji at all. You haven't mentioned the Shoshinkai in your
discussion either that is a serious omission in regard to these
quotations by Nittasu Shonin and the current High Priest of Nichiren
Shoshu.
Greengables
---------------------------------------------------------------
Greengables,
Not an oxymoron at all. The Danto were, at the time, Nichiren Shoshu
believers. They organized and met as lay believers of Nichiren Shoshu.
To the extent that they are no longer believers in today's Nichiren
Shoshu, it is as a consequence of the things that took place since Rev.
Abe assumed the High Priesthood. As you can read, Nittatsu Shonin warmly
encouraged their efforts. If you're interested, you could ask your own
Rev. Nagasaka. I don't know for sure, but I believe he might well have
been in attendance at that meeting.
>> I believe I did mention Shoshinkai peripherally. I am a Shoshinkai
believer, and I have made no secret of it in this forum. <--- #1.
#1. RC comments: Well, "I believe" you are a SSK - ShoShinKai, nka.
ShoStinkyKai believer and have made NO mention of its' secret "in this
forum ... peripherally," Artie my Myodoggie! ROTFL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
I don't know how that fact affects the accuracy of the information I
provided. It is either accurate, or it is not. If you can provide
guidances given by Nittatsu Shonin in 1979 in which he discouraged
criticism of the Soka Gakkai, I'd like to see them.
>> For your reference, Rev. Tono's pamphlet, " ... the background,
content, meaning and spirit ..." was written and published while he was
a Nichiren Shoshu priest. The final translation of Nittatsu Shonin's
address to the Danto Tozan (and yes, that's exactly what it was), was
prepared a good time after his excommunication, and in his role as a
priest of the Shoshinkai. <--- #2.
#2. RC comments: Well, "for your reference," "Rev." Kando "DoDo" Tono
committed a sho 'nuff No-No, in his role, and rocked & rolled, with a
female SGI member hoe-ho, so he sho 'nuff had to Go-Go! [rhymes] ROTFL.
2a. Excerpt from the Nichiren Shoshu Monthly magazine, January 1995
issue, Vol. 2, No. 1, page #22 article: "New York Celebrates Ceremony
Commemorating 10th Anniversary of the Establishment of Myosetsuji
Temple."
[omitted first (1st) four (4) paragraphs]
"While we witnessed this prosperity of the supreme Law in New York,
we also entered into a historical period of struggle with demons, as was
warned in the Gosho. The first manager of Taisekiji's New York office,
Kando Tono, DESERTED to the Shoshinkai, and currently runs a district
office opened by the Shoshinkai in New York. Then Hosho Shina, who
became New York's first chief priest, later fell to the Soka Gakkai, and
presently has joined hands with SGI in New York to commit the gravest of
slander." [end of paragraph]
IOW - Kando the "DoDo" Tono was really No-thing [Zen] but a d-a-m-ned
DESERTER, and Hosho the "Shoe" Shina was No-thing [Zen] but a d-a-m-ned
TRAITOR, and they were both SLANDERERS! ROTFL. War. } :< { 0
---------------------------------------------------------------
Artie
Reginald Carpenter
I changed the subject/title to: Re: ShoStinkykai: a Truthbone for
Artie, my scalded Myodoggie!**
Since you've almost never given Arbn readers any of the true FACTS, or
backed Up any FACTS, with any kind of proof about that SSK - ShoShinKai,
nka. the ShoStinkyKai CULT, and since I can't give you a real
"MilkBone," then here's a TruthBone for your COWARDly, flea-bitten,
sorry-ass to chew on, Artie my scalded Myodoggie! ROTFL. War. } : < {
0
******************************************************
"The Shoshinkai Problem and the Various Lawsuits," 1978-94!**
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Wed, Jan 31, 2001, 11:30am
From: chiefst...@webtv.net (Reginald Carpenter)
Good day, everyone! Response to DerekJuhl postings on 01/22/01 - 11:15pm
& 01/23/01 - 4:05am CST+6. I changed the subject/title to: "The
Shoshinkai Problem and the Various Lawsuits," 1978-94!**
Re. DeeJay's postings on Jan. 22-23, 2001, re. the Shoshinkai, the
following information is from the Nichiren Shoshu Monthly magazine,
February 1995 issue, Vol. 2 No. 2, pages 24-25.
Excerpted from the article listed in the Table of Contents as a "Lecture
by Reverend Fujimoto."
"The First Guidance Meeting for the Regional Representatives and
Vice-Representatives of Hokkeko" by Rev. Nichijun Fujimoto, General
Administrator of Nichiren Shoshu. Printed in Daibyakuho, 9/1/94."
[heading title next to a photo caption of him]
The "Three Part Series on the History Leading to the Split between the
SGI and Nichiren Shoshu Buddhism" - Part Two (2). [permanent index
title]
a) Three Conditions for the Incorporation of the Soka Gakkai [omitted]
b) The Significance of ShoHondo and the Myoshinko Problem [omitted]
c) Ikeda's Arrogance and the 1977 Incidents [omitted]
d) Sham Remorse: "6/30" [1978] and "11/7" [1978] [omitted]
e) Ikeda's Resignation and the Events to Establish Harmony Between
Priesthood and Laity [omitted]
f) Nikken Shonin Assumed the Position of High Priest and Maintained the
Spirit of Cooperation [omitted]
---------------------------------------------------------------
g) The Shoshinkai Problem and the Various Lawsuits [last section of
article]
1) "Within the priesthood, however, there was a group of young
priests who had been criticizing the Soka Gakkai since the time of
Nittatsu Shonin.
These priests rallied together with a group of former Gakkai members who
had since become believers directly connected with the temple.
They initially held the First (1st) Convention of Direct Temple
Believers at the Head Temple in August of 1978.
Their second (2nd) convention was held in January of 1979.
Even after Nikken Shonin became High Priest, they continued on and held
their third (3rd) and fourth (4th) meetings in August of 1979 and
January of 1980, respectively.
On July 4th, 1980, the same day on which the guidance meeting for senior
teacher priests was held at the Head Temple, a group of activists
priests congregated and formed an organization called the Shoshinkai.
Claiming to conduct a movement to arouse the people to the correct
faith, the priests were showing signs of intensifying their criticism of
the Gakkai.
The Nichiren Shoshu Bureau of Religious Affairs learned of plans for
their Fifth (5th) Convention of Direct Temple Believers designed to
increasingly heighten their critical activities.
The bureau repeatedly attempted to persuade the Shoshinkai to cancel
such a meeting aimed at criticizing the Gakkai, in complete defiance of
the directions in the internal guidelines given to the senior priests.
On August 24th, however, the Shoshinkai ignored all the advice and
warnings it had received and brazenly held its' convention of direct
temple believers at the Budokan Hall in Tokyo where it fiercely
criticized the Gakkai." [end of 1st paragraph]
2) "The priesthood was inevitably forced to discipline the priests
who attended this meeting, according to the bylaws of Nichiren Shoshu.
The disciplinary procedures were varied according to the degree of
involvement of each of the priests." [end of 2nd paragraph]
3) "Protesting against this disciplinary action, the Shoshinkai
brought the matter before a legal court.
In the process, the Shoshinkai priests made reference to the notes of
Masatomo Yamazaki, an attorney who was formerly a Gakkai member, which
were published in a weekly magazine in December of 1980.
Based on those notes, they implicated that Nikken Shonin's Heritage of
the Law was questionable and presented him with a letter of inquiry.
Since they did not receive a response to this letter, they deemed that
Nikken Shonin did not receive the Heritage of the Law.
Based upon this, they proclaimed that the disciplinary action performed
by someone who was not the High Priest or superintendent priest was,
indeed, invalid.
Thus, they refused to abide by the prescribed action.
Moreover, in the lawsuits, they demanded that the High Priest agree that
he lacked the qualifications for the position of superintendent priest.
In short, they were finally committing the outrageous act of renouncing
the reception of the Heritage of the Law by Nikken Shonin." [end of 3rd
paragraph]
4) "Based upon this course of events, the priesthood took the
appropriate requisite steps and ultimately defrocked all the Shoshinkai
priests.
The lawsuits continued, however.
In the case concerning the superintendent priest, last September [1993],
the Supreme Court rejected the demands made by the Shoshinkai and made
an irrevocable judgment in complete favor of the priesthood.
There are two (2) other pending lawsuits: one (1) in which the
Shoshinkai priests, claiming to be staff representing chief priests, are
demanding to have their position confirmed; the other suit involves a
claim made by the priesthood, demanding the return of the temples
illegally occupied by the Shoshinkai.
In both the Superior and Supreme Courts, these two (2) lawsuits are
expected to be dismissed soon, based on the reason that the problems
involve religious affairs in which the courts should not intervene.
Matters are not conclusive as yet with all the temples, but the present
course of affairs will most likely remain unchanged." [end of 4th
paragraph]
5) "Presently, there are temples that are unlawfully occupied by the
Shoshinkai, but according to the statutes, these temples will be legally
returned to Nichiren Shoshu when the occupants are no longer present due
to death or other circumstances.
Thus, this problem will undoubtedly be resolved gradually in this way."
[end of 5th paragraph]
6) "The 1977 Incidents with the Soka Gakkai had ended, and the
spirit of cooperation fostered by Nittatsu Shonin was maintained by
Nikken Shonin who continued to protect the organization.
Nikken Shonin sincerely believed that the regret and remorse expressed
by the Ikeda Soka Gakkai were genuine.
It was because he trusted Ikeda that he reappointed him to the position
of chief lay representative (sokoto) on January 2nd, 1984." [end of
paragraph & article]
Copyright 1995 NST. All Rights Reserved.
WorldPeace! } : < { 0
<<< Stone Eagle >>>
Airborne in Cyberspace*
******************************************************
Greengables
---------------------------------------------------------------
Greengables,
believer, and I have made no secret of it in this forum. I don't know
how that fact affects the accuracy of the information I provided. It is
either accurate, or it is not. If you can provide guidances given by
Nittatsu Shonin in 1979 in which he discouraged criticism of the Soka
Gakkai, I'd like to see them.
For your reference, Rev. Tono's pamphlet, " ... the background, content,
meaning and spirit ..." was written and published while he was a
Nichiren Shoshu priest. The final translation of Nittatsu Shonin's
address to the Danto Tozan (and yes, that's exactly what it was), was
prepared a good time after his excommunication, and in his role as a
priest of the Shoshinkai.
Artie
myo...@my-deja.com
Therefore, I have broken up my message, and the content to which it
refers into two (or more) parts.)
Stoney,
I am not going to engage in the kind of schoolyard trash talking that
you seem to think passes for discussion. I leave your unedited comments
below for anyone who wishes to assess the seriousness with which you
take Buddhism and the "respect" with which you deal with others. To your
specific points (by number), I have the following comments:
#2 - Please ask your priest what the fundamental precept of Nichiren
Shoshu is. It is to accept and embrace the Dai Gohonzon of the Three
Great Secret Laws.
#3 - I did not suggest that I would be invited to view the Dai Gohonzon.
I merely indicated that I would be unwilling to participate in a
ceremony conducted by Rev. Abe. For your reference, the person you refer
to as "Nikken Shonin" is a priest, and his family name is Abe, so he can
properly be referred to as Rev. Abe. This is not disrespect, but a
refusal to address him as the legitimate High Priest of Nichiren Shoshu.
I chose this form of reference because I have been informed that Soka
Gakkai's reference to him as "Nikken" is, in fact, discourteous and
insulting. I refer to him as Rev. Abe in the same vein that I refer to
the president of SGI as Mr. Ikeda, rather than "Honorary President
Ikeda". Somewhere in my distant past, I posted to this newsgroup that it
was inappropriate for Soka Gakkai members seeking serious discussion to
refer to your High Priest as "Nikken".
#4-5 - Trash without substance.
In article <25472-3A...@storefull-112.iap.bryant.webtv.net>,
myo...@my-deja.com
below.
Stoney,
I am not going to engage in the kind of schoolyard trash talking that you
seem to think passes for discussion. I leave your unedited comments below for
anyone who wishes to assess the seriousness with which you take Buddhism and
the "respect" with which you deal with others. To your specific points (by
number), I have the following comments:
#6 - The facts about Rev. Tono's personal life are that, some time after
returning to Japan, he divorced his wife. He subsequently married an American
believer. They have been married for close to 20 years. The rest is just
character assassination. Et tu, Stoney. Of course, the fact of the matter is
that Sessen Doji sought the teaching from a demon. If I felt that I could
learn the teaching correctly from Rev. Abe, the "Seattle Incident" would be
of no concern to me. Likewise, even if your allegations and characterization
of Rev. Tono were accurate (which they are not), because I believe that he
(and the rest of Shoshinkai) accurately convey the teaching, I am happy to
learn from him. As for Rev. Tono's dealings with Rev. Nagasaka, it was Rev.
Tono who sent a 16 page letter of remonstration to Rev. Nagasaka shortly
after his excommunication. (A copy was also sent to a Japanese-speaking lay
member of Myosetsuji.) It was Rev. Tono, who visited Myosetsuji to
remonstrate privately with Rev. Nagasaka, and it is Rev. Tono who sent Rev.
Nagasaka a letter offering to publicly debate with him, in English and on
doctrine.(I have a copy of that letter.) I have also sent lengthy letters to
several members of Myosetsuji, with a copy to Rev. Nagasaka. All three
letters have been met with silence. It would appear that Rev. Nagasaka is the
one who is unwilling to debate. Personally, I do not consider myself
sufficiently knowledgeable to debate Rev. Nagasaka in person. I don't think
Rev. Tono has said anything to us that he would not be willing to say in
front of Rev. Nagasaka. Rev. Nagasaka seems unwilling to subject whatever he
says to his believers to Rev. Tono's scrutiny. Not sure where you get this
"cult of personality worshiper" stuff. Glass houses, you know ... Shoshinkai
has had four presidents since 1981. I'd be hard pressed to tell you their
names without looking them up. If ever there was an organization that was
decentralized, that was not built around a living person, it would be
Shoshinkai. #7 - If you want to define "grudge" as "dislike" (and who am I to
argue with a dictionary), then I guess you can say I hold a grudge against
Rev. Abe. The same certainly holds true for Mr. Ikeda, and I could name a few
more. More accurately, I would say that I strongly dislike their behavior. My
response was based on my understanding of a "grudge" as being a longstanding
resentment that outlived the significance of its cause. In Rev. Abe's case,
nothing he has done has convinced me that he has, in any way, changed the
actions or beliefs that caused me to disrespect him in the first place. As I
have said, however, referring to him as Rev. Abe is not a derogatory act. I
don't know what constitutes "your" airspace in cyberspace, but you have
certainly managed to insult the dignity and integrity of most who read your
posts, let alone, those to whom you address them. If you don't like what I
write, you are free not to read it. #8 - Plenty mo trash. As I said before,
and it is my understanding, Hokkeko believers who made a pilgrimage to the
Head Temple, prior to the time of the Soka Kyoiku Gakkai, did so for the
purposes of serving the priests and seeking the teachings. Often, they did
not "see" the Dai Gohonzon, and participation in the Gokaihi ceremony was not
the focus of their visit. #10 - I don't think I've misconstrued any of what
was said in the January or March 1979 speeches, and I have read them both in
their entirety. I have not seen the full text of the May 3, 1979 speech, and
I would appreciate it if you could make it available. "Resolving to remain
understanding" and "being friendly" do not contradict the admonition to
correct slander. #11 - I've already said that Rev. Abe claimed his actions to
be a continuation of the policies and guidances of Nittatsu Shonin. Why do
you consider it noteworthy that the Nichiren Shoshu Administration, which was
UNDER HIS DIRECTION, would say the same thing? #12 - Again, you chose to
reiterate the quotes that support your position and ignore those that do not.
It would be helpful if you could explain to me how I misconstrued what
Nittatsu Shonin said, instead of resorting to your usual name-calling. Also,
I previously explained the difference in circumstances between November, 1978
and January and March, 1979. You just chose not to believe it, or to ignore
it. #13 - More excellent reasoning and refutation. #14 - And still more.
You're obviously ignorant of Shoshinkai, because Rev. Tono did not even join
the Shoshinkai until he was excommunicated in the late '80s. That means that
Shoshinkai existed for about 7 years without "it's [sic] head guru". You
really don't know what you're talking about. And, as regards my "low life
condition", please let me know what life condition you are exhibiting in your
response. [Readers, feel free to contribute.] #15 - Glad that you admit that
there was no other priest claiming to have received the Heritage. Some of
your fellow members have said that a Shoshinkai priest claimed to have
received it. Not true. The fact that no one else claimed to have received it
doesn't prove that Rev. Abe received it anymore than it proves that I
received it. #16 - Now it's time for me to ROTFL. According to you, Nittatsu
Shonin gave instructions [written or verbal?, do they have his seal?] to "the
Nichiren Shoshu Temple Administration" [do we have a name? a date?] not to be
recorded until after his death? And so, we have a book, in which the Nichiren
Shoshu Aministration, controlled by Rev. Abe, placed his name in a book,
after Nittatsu Shonin's death, and you call that proof? Reminds me of a diary
page (sorry, low blow). I'm sure you are aware (as you've indicated from
other postings), that the Shoshinkai priests sued Nichiren Shoshu to block
their demotions and excommunication, and that as part of their lawsuit, they
questioned whether Rev. Abe was the legitimate High Priest. Well, the court
refused to rule on that issue, but the "objective evidence" you cite never
came up at the trial. Now, why do you suppose they never brought forward such
convincing evidence? Hmmmmmm. #18 - I guess it just didn't occur to you that
I did it intentionally, that it was a reply "in kind" to Greengables. That's
OK. You're so busy thinking you're at war with a dumb-ass cultie, you
wouldn't recognize a sign of intelligent life if it hit you over the head
(not that I think this was so intelligent). Now, don't you have some rodents
to catch?
Artie
In article <25472-3A...@storefull-112.iap.bryant.webtv.net>,
chiefst...@webtv.net (Reginald Carpenter) wrote:
> A quickie for Artie from Stoney. Re. MyoDog posting on 01/28/01 -
> 8:53pm CST+6.
>
> I changed the subject/title to: Re: For Artie the CULTie SSK -
> Sho-Stinky-Kai scalded MyoDog!**
> ******************************************************
>
> Re: For Derek, Stoney and NS
>
> Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
> Date: Sun, Jan 28, 2001, 8:53pm (CST+6) From: myo...@my-deja.com
>
> In article <94kfi6$5gn$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, greengables
> <greenga...@my-deja.com> wrote:
<text snipped from Part 1>
> =A0=A0Obviously the priesthood tried to patch things up with the Soka
> FYI - a record book =3D "objective evidence," Artie my Myodoggie -
myo...@my-deja.com
Thanks for doing my typing for me. Of course, the writings of a partisan
don't excactly constitute what I would call "facts", any more than do
the articles published in the World Tribune, but there are some
interesting "TruthBones" here.
In article <23680-3A...@storefull-115.iap.bryant.webtv.net>,
chiefst...@webtv.net (Reginald Carpenter) wrote:
> A quickie for Artie from Stoney. Re. MyoDog posting on 01/22/01 -
> 3:06am CST+6; x-ref. to RC (my) posting on 01/31/01 - 11:30am CST.
>
> I changed the subject/title to: Re: ShoStinkykai: a Truthbone for
> Artie, my scalded Myodoggie!**
> Since you've almost never given Arbn readers any of the true FACTS, or
> backed Up any FACTS, with any kind of proof about that SSK -
ShoShinKai,
> nka. the ShoStinkyKai CULT, and since I can't give you a real
> "MilkBone," then here's a TruthBone for your COWARDly, flea-bitten,
> sorry-ass to chew on, Artie my scalded Myodoggie! ROTFL. War. } : <
{
> 0
> ******************************************************
>
> "The Shoshinkai Problem and the Various Lawsuits," 1978-94!**
>
> Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
> Date: Wed, Jan 31, 2001, 11:30am
> From: chiefst...@webtv.net (Reginald=A0Carpenter)
>
> Good day, everyone! Response to DerekJuhl postings on 01/22/01 -
11:15pm
> & 01/23/01 - 4:05am CST+6. I changed the subject/title to: "The
> Shoshinkai Problem and the Various Lawsuits," 1978-94!**
>
> Re. DeeJay's postings on Jan. 22-23, 2001, re. the Shoshinkai, the
> following information is from the Nichiren Shoshu Monthly magazine,
> February 1995 issue, Vol. 2 No. 2, pages 24-25.
>
> Excerpted from the article listed in the Table of Contents as a
"Lecture
> by Reverend Fujimoto."
> "The First Guidance Meeting for the Regional Representatives and
> Vice-Representatives of Hokkeko" by Rev. Nichijun Fujimoto, General
> Administrator of Nichiren Shoshu. Printed in Daibyakuho, 9/1/94."
> [heading title next to a photo caption of him]
One of the intersting facts about Rev. Fujimoto is that he was among the
witnesses to testify in the Nichiren Shoshu - Shoshinkai lawsuits. In
one passage I saw translated, he was asked to explain why Nichiren
Shoshu had a bylaw which specified the means of selecting a High Priest
in the event that an incumbent High Priest died without naming a
successor. He contended that such an occurrence would be impossible, but
if it did happen, it would only happen if there were a living retired
High Priest (Zen Hossu). Wow!
Facts are normally reported by disinterested observers. Not hardly the
case here.
>
> The "Three Part Series on the History Leading to the Split between the
> SGI and Nichiren Shoshu Buddhism" - Part Two (2). [permanent index
> title]
>
> a) Three Conditions for the Incorporation of the Soka Gakkai [omitted]
>
> b) The Significance of ShoHondo and the Myoshinko Problem [omitted]
>
> c) Ikeda's Arrogance and the 1977 Incidents [omitted]
>
> d) Sham Remorse: "6/30" [1978] and "11/7" [1978] [omitted]
Nice to know that Nichiren Shoshu considers this to be "sham", as well.
The November 7, 1978 speech of Nittatsu Shonin, which you quote so
frequently, was delivered at this meeting. Even at the meeting, itself,
it became obvious that Soka Gakkai was not there to express its remorse,
ergo, Nittatsu Shonin's reaction immediately thereafter, and the
speeches of January and March 1979.
>
> e) Ikeda's Resignation and the Events to Establish Harmony Between
> Priesthood and Laity [omitted]
>
> f) Nikken Shonin Assumed the Position of High Priest and Maintained
the
> Spirit of Cooperation [omitted]
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>
> g) The Shoshinkai Problem and the Various Lawsuits [last section of
> article]
>
> 1) =A0 "Within the priesthood, however, there was a group of young
> priests who had been criticizing the Soka Gakkai since the time of
> Nittatsu Shonin.
>
And were they wrong in their criticism?
> These priests rallied together with a group of former Gakkai members
who
> had since become believers directly connected with the temple.
>
> They initially held the First (1st) Convention of Direct Temple
> Believers at the Head Temple in August of 1978.
>
> Their second (2nd) convention was held in January of 1979.
>
Nittatsu Shonin's speech, which I quoted to you (and which I offered to
you in both English and Japanese) was delivered at this convention. Over
300 priests (half the priesthood, at that time) were in attendence.
> Even after Nikken Shonin became High Priest, they continued on and
held
> their third (3rd) and fourth (4th) meetings in August of 1979 and
> January of 1980, respectively.
>
> On July 4th, 1980, the same day on which the guidance meeting for
senior
> teacher priests was held at the Head Temple, a group of activists
> priests congregated and formed an organization called the Shoshinkai.
>
My udnerstanding is that the Shoshinkai was officially formed only after
their excommunication. It is clear that, almost from the moment of his
succession, these priests were worried about Rev. Abe's tolerance of the
Soka Gakkai. And for good reason.
> Claiming to conduct a movement to arouse the people to the correct
> faith, the priests were showing signs of intensifying their criticism
of
> the Gakkai.
>
> The Nichiren Shoshu Bureau of Religious Affairs learned of plans for
> their Fifth (5th) Convention of Direct Temple Believers designed to
> increasingly heighten their critical activities.
>
> The bureau repeatedly attempted to persuade the Shoshinkai to cancel
> such a meeting aimed at criticizing the Gakkai, in complete defiance
of
> the directions in the internal guidelines given to the senior priests.
>
Don't those guidelines seem misguided now?
> On August 24th, however, the Shoshinkai ignored all the advice and
> warnings it had received and brazenly held its' convention of direct
> temple believers at the Budokan Hall in Tokyo where it fiercely
> criticized the Gakkai." [end of 1st paragraph]
>
Criticized? Or pointed out their slander?
> 2) =A0 "The priesthood was inevitably forced to discipline the priests
> who attended this meeting, according to the bylaws of Nichiren Shoshu.
None of this would have been necessary except that the Taisekiji
administration, in the pocket of the Soka Gakkai, had issued the orders
not to attend the meeting.
> The disciplinary procedures were varied according to the degree of
> involvement of each of the priests." [end of 2nd paragraph]
>
> 3) =A0 "Protesting against this disciplinary action, the Shoshinkai
> brought the matter before a legal court.
>
> In the process, the Shoshinkai priests made reference to the notes of
> Masatomo Yamazaki, an attorney who was formerly a Gakkai member, which
> were published in a weekly magazine in December of 1980.
>
> Based on those notes, they implicated that Nikken Shonin's Heritage of
> the Law was questionable and presented him with a letter of inquiry.
>
> Since they did not receive a response to this letter, they deemed that
> Nikken Shonin did not receive the Heritage of the Law.
>
And Rev. Abe has never responded to the questions posed in that letter.
You might ask why.
> Based upon this, they proclaimed that the disciplinary action
performed
> by someone who was not the High Priest or superintendent priest was,
> indeed, invalid.
>
> Thus, they refused to abide by the prescribed action.
>
> Moreover, in the lawsuits, they demanded that the High Priest agree
that
> he lacked the qualifications for the position of superintendent
priest.
>
> In short, they were finally committing the outrageous act of
renouncing
> the reception of the Heritage of the Law by Nikken Shonin." [end of
3rd
> paragraph]
Something that he was unable to demonstrate in court, or since.
> 4) =A0 "Based upon this course of events, the priesthood took the
> appropriate requisite steps and ultimately defrocked all the
Shoshinkai
> priests.
>
> The lawsuits continued, however.
>
> In the case concerning the superintendent priest, last September
[1993],
> the Supreme Court rejected the demands made by the Shoshinkai and made
> an irrevocable judgment in complete favor of the priesthood.
>
> There are two (2) other pending lawsuits: one (1) in which the
> Shoshinkai priests, claiming to be staff representing chief priests,
are
> demanding to have their position confirmed; the other suit involves a
> claim made by the priesthood, demanding the return of the temples
> illegally occupied by the Shoshinkai.
>
So, if the judgement was "in complete favor of the priesthood" (as if
the Shoshinkai were not "priesthood"), then why were the Shoshinkai
priests allowed to remain in their temples? And why was such occupation
"illegal"?
> In both the Superior and Supreme Courts, these two (2) lawsuits are
> expected to be dismissed soon, based on the reason that the problems
> involve religious affairs in which the courts should not intervene.
>
And, if the courts stated that they should not intervene in religious
affairs, how was this a judgement in favor of the priesthood? It was a
non-judgement.
> Matters are not conclusive as yet with all the temples, but the
present
> course of affairs will most likely remain unchanged." [end of 4th
> paragraph]
>
> 5) =A0 "Presently, there are temples that are unlawfully occupied by
the
> Shoshinkai, but according to the statutes, these temples will be
legally
> returned to Nichiren Shoshu when the occupants are no longer present
due
> to death or other circumstances.
Again, if they are "unlawfully" occupied, then why will they revert to
Nichiren Shoshu only after the occupants are no longer present? The
present occupation must be legal. More chest-thumping.
> Thus, this problem will undoubtedly be resolved gradually in this
way."
> [end of 5th paragraph]
>
> 6) =A0 "The 1977 Incidents with the Soka Gakkai had ended, and the
> spirit of cooperation fostered by Nittatsu Shonin was maintained by
> Nikken Shonin who continued to protect the organization.
>
> Nikken Shonin sincerely believed that the regret and remorse expressed
> by the Ikeda Soka Gakkai were genuine.
>
C'mon? Are you going to tell me that even you believed their remorse was
genuine at the time? Pulleeeeez
> It was because he trusted Ikeda that he reappointed him to the
position
> of chief lay representative (sokoto) on January 2nd, 1984." [end of
> paragraph & article]
>
> Copyright 1995 NST. All Rights Reserved.
>
> WorldPeace! =A0 } : < { 0
>
> =A0=A0<<< Stone Eagle >>>
> Airborne in Cyberspace*
> ******************************************************
Can't wait for the next "Truth-bone"
Artie
Mr T
> (Deja news will not accommodate this response in a single message.
> Therefore, I have broken up my message, and the content to which it
> refers into two (or more) parts.)
>
> Stoney,
>
> I am not going to engage in the kind of schoolyard trash talking that
> you seem to think passes for discussion. I leave your unedited comments
> below for anyone who wishes to assess the seriousness with which you
> take Buddhism and the "respect" with which you deal with others. To your
> specific points (by number), I have the following comments:
>
Artie, most of us have have had Reginald in our killfile files for ages
specifically for exactly the same initial reason you gave (and lots
more, believe me).
all the best,
--
Kurt
anti-spam measure:
to reply send to: martman at primenet dot net
Reginald Carpenter
12:10am CST+6.
******************************************************
Re: Part 1 - For Artie the CULTie SSK - Sho-Stinky-Kai scalded MyoDog!**
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Mon, Feb 5, 2001, 12:10am (CST+6) From: myo...@my-deja.com
(Deja news will not accommodate this response in a single message.
Therefore, I have broken up my message, and the content to which it
refers into two (or more) parts.)
Stoney,
I am not going to engage in the kind of schoolyard trash talking that
you seem to think passes for discussion. I leave your unedited comments
below for anyone who wishes to assess the seriousness with which you
take Buddhism and the "respect" with which you deal with others. To your
specific points (by number), I have the following comments:
>>> #2 - Please ask your priest what the fundamental precept of Nichiren
Shoshu is. It is to accept and embrace the Dai-Gohonzon of the Three
Great Secret Laws. <--- #1.
#1) RC comments: Please try to read & comprehend that excerpt I wrote
below from "Nichiren Shoshu Buddhism" pamphlet about "Accepting the
Faith;" and please do try your best to learn that RIF - Reading Is
Fundamental, FOOL! LOL.
<http://www.rif.org>
First of all, your arrogant & ignorant, doggish, flea-bitten, little
heretical & HYPOCRITICAL, lying-ass, low life conditioned, SLANDEROUS &
TRAITOROUS sorry-ass has NO business trying to tell ANYbody about what
either is the "fundamental precept of Nichiren Shoshu" or about what is
"accepting and embracing the DaiGohonzon of the Three Great Secret
Laws," because you do NOT do either one anymore, Artie my Myodoggie!
LOL.
FYI - because, there are THREE (3), NOT just ONE (1) "fundamental
precept(s)" to "accept & embrace" as real Nichiren Shoshu believers are
supposed to do "throughout your life," in the Gojukai/ oath of
ACCEPTANCE ceremony which you have NOT done that are called the (3)
Gojukai vows, Artie my Myodoggie! "How pitiful, how pitiful!" -
Nichiren Daishonin.
Anyway, you are "fundamentally" & technically INcorrect trying to state
what you think you're talking about as usual, because of your own
Arrogance, Anger & STUPIDITY, you have never really learned Buddhism or
True Buddhism correctly, so you do NOT really know what in the H-e-l-l
you're talking about it, Artie my Myodoggie - FOOL! ROTFL.
Excerpted from "The Gojukai Ceremony: Acceptance of the Precept" chapter
of the "Nichiren Shoshu Ceremonies" book, copyright 1997 by NST. All
Rights Reserved, page #62:
"In Nichiren Daishonin's Buddhism, it is taught that wholeheartedly
Upholding and embracing the Gohonzon of the Three Great Secret Laws
throughout one's life is the essence of ethics."
And, page #63:
"The PRECEPT of Nichiren Shoshu Buddhism IS called the "PRECEPT of the
diamond chalice" (kongo hoki kai)."
Gee Artie, didn't you ever learn that before in the NSA-SGI or SGI-USA
or that HERETICal CULT, the SSK - ShoShinKai, aka. ShoStinkyKai??
Answer - apparently NOT, Artie my Myodoggie - FOOL! ROTFL.
Well, I guess that your SSK guru, that so called "Rev. Tono" the "NO
Ethics" Dummo, is just much too busy like the "Right Reverend," Jesse
Jackson," f*ckin' around with his female membership; and the Right
Reverend "NoNo" Tono is feeding you CULTie fools too much of his own
government grilled cheese sandwiches, too! ROTFL. War. } : < { 0
---------------------------------------------------------------
Dai-Gohonzon, and I know of people who have joined for that express
I find statements such as yours to be almost like using the Dai-Gohonzon
as "bait" in order to draw people to the temple. Even if I was to be
invited to see the Dai Gohonzon without joining the current Nichiren
Shoshu (not that I ever "unjoined"), I do not believe I would be willing
to participate in a ceremony conducted by Rev. Abe. <--- #3.
#3. RC comments: Well, "I find statements such as yours to be almost"
IDIOTIC, Artie my Myodoggie! LOL.
Furthermore, your arrogant & ignorant, low life conditioned, doggish
sorry-ass would never "be invited to see the Dai-Gohonzon ... to
participate in a ceremony conducted by Rev. Abe," because you are a
HERETICal NON-believer of that HERETICAL ShoShinKai CULT religion, nka.
the SSK - "Sho-Stinky-Kai" and there is NO "Rev. Abe," except for the
person who is a chief priest and the son of the 67th High Priest, Nikken
Shonin! ROTFL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
I don't think I'm "enmeshed" in Shoshinkai. <--- #4.
#4. RC comments: No, I think that you are just simply a BRAINWASHED
CULTie involved with a little HERETICal CULT named the SSK -
Sho-Shin-Kai, nka. Sho-Stinky-Kai! ROTFL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
I do believe that they most faithfully convey the traditional teachings
of Nichiren Shoshu, and I certainly feel a good deal of well-deserved
personal loyalty to Rev. Tono. <--- #5.
#5. RC comments: Well, since "I do believe that they most" certainly are
all EX-priests of the Nichiren Shoshu who were all individually &
justifiably EX-COMMUNICATED from it about the year 1980, then "I
certainly feel [that] a good deal of [anyone's] ... personal loyalty to
Rev. Tono" is "well-deserved" to call it a CULT, SSK - Sho-Shin-Kai,
nka. Sho-Stinky-Kai just a little HERETICal CULT of Personality
Worshippers! ROTFL.
******************************************************
greengables
properly at the time. As for my truncated posts that is a long standing
problem with my ISP not a technique in itself I have any claim to.
I have to say that for neophytes like myself who were not completely
besotted with the SGI and only joined up at the tail end of that
situation it has obviously been much easier to deal with all of those
circumstances. I always considered it a blessing, although I had to work
hard to keep my head above water in the SGI. For myslef and others who
came late and didn't experience all those things you wrote about it is
really impossible to comment, and I feel for anyone who suffered because
of those circumstances. I am not sure what I could do for them now.
As I mentioned before we have members from the Shoshinkai who don't
look back and I beleive they are the only people who could discuss this
with you with any empathy.
When I realized that the Tower of the Bodhisattvas was only one in a
line following from the Atsuhara Martyrs and that there would be more
and worse persecution my heart sank. In the same way the construction of
the Hoaden is undertaken without a lot of fanfare because the time is
limitless and the wo
myo...@my-deja.com
You're giving quickies a bad name.
Even on arbn, its rare to find someone quite as arrogant, angry,
vituperative, condescending and unjustifiably filled with his own
importance. Even your fellow NS believers do their best to ignore you.
You can consider this discussion to be terminated. I am not going into
the gutter with you, and I'm not going to provide you with an
opportunity to descend even lower.
Should you wish to engage someone else, hopefully you will find a
masochist in these parts. It ain't me, babe.
Adios.
Artie
P.S. If you're looking for a debating partner (Buddhist Crossfire?), you
might drop Soren a line. I'd almost pay to watch ;>^
In article <8628-3A8...@storefull-116.iap.bryant.webtv.net>,
chiefst...@webtv.net (Reginald Carpenter) wrote:
> A quickie for Artie from Stoney. Re. MyoDog posting on 02/05/01 -
> 12:10am CST+6.
> ******************************************************
>
> Re: Part 1 - For Artie the CULTie SSK - Sho-Stinky-Kai scalded
MyoDog!**
>
> #1) RC comments: Please try to read & comprehend that excerpt I wrote
Cody
myo...@my-deja.com
No hable Espanol.
Adios is only to the self-proclaimed Chief. I'll be the same sporadic
poster and lurker that I've always been. I just won't have anything to
do with him until he passes Civilization 101.
Artie
Cody
<myo...@my-deja.com> escribió >
No hable Espanol.
> Adios is only to the self-proclaimed Chief. I'll be the same sporadic
> poster and lurker that I've always been. I just won't have anything to
> do with him until he passes Civilization 101.
>
> Artie
A = to
Dios = God
Got it?
Now, what´s God got to do with itż?
Cody
myo...@my-deja.com
Nothing! Nada! Zippo! Less than zero!
Told you I don't speak Spanish.
A demain.
Cody
<myo...@my-deja.com> escribió >
> Nothing! Nada! Zippo! Less than zero!
> Told you I don't speak Spanish.
> A demain.
>
> Artie
Shame. If one knows Spanish and English, one has the world.
Not to mention being able to communicate in LA. LOL.
Cody
Cody
"Hasta luego", which means,
See you later.
Adios is not only very Christian but also quite final (which is where you
might have - without knowing it - been right on target, but such is language
... ;-).
Cody
mcody @ ono.com
<myo...@my-deja.com> escribió en el mensaje
news:967hlu$237$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <tTGh6.3625$O31....@newsr01.ono.com>,
> "Cody" <mc...@onoMATASPAMMERS.com> wrote:
> >
> > <myo...@my-deja.com> escribió >
> >
> > No hable Espanol.
> > > Adios is only to the self-proclaimed Chief. I'll be the same
> sporadic
> > > poster and lurker that I've always been. I just won't have anything
> to
> > > do with him until he passes Civilization 101.
> > >
> > > Artie
> >
> > A = to
> > Dios = God
> >
> > Got it?
> >
> > Now, what´s God got to do with it¿?
Mr T
<mc...@onoMATASPAMMERS.com> wrote:
In French "Adieu, " means the same, but is much more of a final goodbye-
like when someone dies.