Calvinistic seminaries; LRS
Jimmy
Jackson, Mississippi. If it is it is a wonderful school. I receive
the REFORMED QUARTERLY and it is a very good publication. Now, another
Reformed seminary worth considering is Know in Ft. Lauderdale, FL,
www.knoxseminary.org. D. James Kennedy helped found this school and it
has associate status with ATS. On a similar note I notice much has
been written about so-called "unaccredited" grads not being accepted by
many communities. I wonder if Charles Stanley, a grad of Luther Rice,
would not have been accepted prior to LRS being accredited by TRACS.
If I am not sorely mistake he received his degree before TRACS
accreditation. The same could be asked about Freddie K.C. Price,
Bishop T.D. Jakes, and many other nationally and internationally
recognized evangelical preachers, ministers, evangelists, etc.
--
James Walter Clifton, B.S., Th.M., Ph.D., Psy.D.
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Steve Levicoff
> I am wondering if the RTS referred to in a couple posts is the one in
> Jackson, Mississippi. If it is it is a wonderful school. I receive
> the REFORMED QUARTERLY and it is a very good publication. Now, another
> Reformed seminary worth considering is Know in Ft. Lauderdale, FL,
> www.knoxseminary.org. D. James Kennedy helped found this school and it
> has associate status with ATS. On a similar note I notice much has
> been written about so-called "unaccredited" grads not being accepted by
> many communities. I wonder if Charles Stanley, a grad of Luther Rice,
> would not have been accepted prior to LRS being accredited by TRACS.
> If I am not sorely mistake he received his degree before TRACS
> accreditation.
You are quite correct about Charles Stanley. And yes, Stanley would
probably be accepted anywhere - because of his abilities, period.
Incidentally, although I am not a Luther Rice fan, Stanley is not their
only prominent graduate, nor their only prominent graduate who is
Southern Baptist.
> The same could be asked about Freddie K.C. Price,
> Bishop T.D. Jakes, and many other nationally and internationally
> recognized evangelical preachers, ministers, evangelists, etc.
"Freddie K.C. Price?" I love it, Jimmy. And so, I'm sure, would
"Freddie."
> James Walter Clifton, B.S., Th.M., Ph.D., Psy.D.
My, my, we are getting into the titles, aren't we? Dazzle us with your
brilliance, son, not with all of the letters after your name.
(Take that fromm one who never uses after my name. Remember the riff.
"If you've got it, flaunt it?" Bullshit, Jimmy. When you've got the
*real* thing, you don't have to flaunt it.)
--
,-~~-.___.
/ | ' \
( ) 0
\_/-, ,----'
==== //
/ \-'~; /~~~(O)
/ __/~| / |
=( _____| (_________|
------------------------------
Steve Levicoff
levi...@ix.netcom.com
http://levicoff.tripod.com
------------------------------
Marc Axelrod
Or at some other seminary lacking RA/ATS accreditation?
nort...@my-deja.com
levi...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
snipped
> You are quite correct about Charles Stanley. And yes, Stanley would
> probably be accepted anywhere - because of his abilities, period.
> Incidentally, although I am not a Luther Rice fan, Stanley is not
their
> only prominent graduate, nor their only prominent graduate who is
> Southern Baptist.
I agree with Steve about Charles Stanley. I also think that he is
academically in a different league than Price or Jakes who Dr. Clifton
mentions. Fred *Name it and Claim it* Price and TD Jakes are more
charismatic than Stanley and have built huge ministries but Stanley
seems to be more of a theologian. I don't know whether it was self
taught or the result of his Th.D. from LRS. TD Jakes as far as I know
has no formal theological training and has found him self in some
interesting situations theologically. He leans to the oneness (non
trinitarian) side and has taken criticism from Hank Hanegraaf (CRI) and
had an article written on the subject in Christianity Today. He
replied something to the effect that he is not a theologian and is not
interested in becoming bogged down in the issue. So in a sense his
lack of theological education has been a minor problem, but in terms of
ministry as far as I know it has not made a dent. Hugely successful
author, minister, businessman, community leader, etc. To the best of
my knowledge, T.D. Jakes also does not lay claim to unrecognized
theological credentials. Charles Stanley is very open about his
degrees and that they are from LRS. This was my first tip off with
DeAngelis and Gray (their book jackets mention Dr. so and so lives in
California.... without mentioning where the degree is from). Which in
regards to what Steve said about flaunting it is also true. The books
by Gray and DeAngelis all seem to list Ph.D. after their names where
Stanley's simply says Charles Stanley.
Well, I have rambled along. LRS does indeed have many well known
graduates including Paige Patterson's wife Dorothy Patterson who is a
doctoral graduate. Dr. Patterson (male) is the one who ushered in the
submission of women issue.
Incidentally Steve, has your opinion of TRACS changed any since you
published your book?? Would you place them at the level of the DETC??
North
snipped
> > James Walter Clifton, B.S., Th.M., Ph.D., Psy.D.
>
> My, my, we are getting into the titles, aren't we? Dazzle us with
your
> brilliance, son, not with all of the letters after your name.
>
> (Take that fromm one who never uses after my name. Remember the riff.
> "If you've got it, flaunt it?" Bullshit, Jimmy. When you've got the
> *real* thing, you don't have to flaunt it.)
>
> --
> ,-~~-.___.
> / | ' \
> ( ) 0
> \_/-, ,----'
> ==== //
> / \-'~; /~~~(O)
> / __/~| / |
> =( _____| (_________|
> ------------------------------
> Steve Levicoff
> levi...@ix.netcom.com
> http://levicoff.tripod.com
> ------------------------------
>
Kevin Stewart
nort...@my-deja.com wrote in message <9241mp$am2$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
snipped
TD Jakes as far as I know
>has no formal theological training and has found him self in some
>interesting situations theologically.
According to his website, he graduated from Center Business College in 1972,
(at age 15), and recieved a Doctor of Ministry in 1995. The Bishop started
storefront church with 10 people in '80,(went FT in '82) got on local radio
in '82, (when he apparently quit 6 yrs of'various positions in business and
industry'). He relocated to Dallas, taking 50 families with him(?) in 1996.
Between 1994-1998, he wrote 20 books, (7 in 96, 6 in 97). His most popular
talk was entitled "Woman Thou Art Loosed" in '92; the book by that name was
his first.
Points of interest: His D.Min has no corresponding school given, (his
college reference gives no degree level) and I saw to reference to "Dr.
Jakes"; apparent college grad at 15, though he started preaching while a
Psych major at WVState); use of "Bishop", (what do you think he payed for
it, Huffboy Bill?) Apparently started his own church (tres ULC!); 50
famililies became 17,000 members church in 2-3 yrs. Publiched 13 books in 22
months. Considered to be one of the leading Chrsitian leaders, along
withBilly Graham and Mother Theresa.
Not bad for someone who apparently had trouble holding a job for 6 yrs.!
(All these points refute the ideas that are 'gospel' here.)
Reading his site took me back to reading similar material on HWA, especially
the "Pastor ... humanitarian, author. . . broadcaster . . . the roles and
compassion of [....]" line at the beginning of TD's site.
snipped
To the best of
>my knowledge, T.D. Jakes also does not lay claim to unrecognized
>theological credentials.
"Bishop"? "Doctor"? Who knows?
Kevin
snipped
Kevin Stewart
form or another)
Really, North! Ain't you just sooo ashamed of yourself now? = )
Kevin
nort...@my-deja.com wrote in message <9241mp$am2$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
snipped
TD Jakes as far as I know
>has no formal theological training and has found him self in some
>interesting situations theologically.
snipped
Barry Foster
I found there was "research", I could have saved myself a *lot* of time earning
my Ph.D.!!! :-)
Kevin Stewart
Barry Foster wrote in message <3A461EAD...@qwest.net>...
>Bummer! If I'd known that finding a website and reposting whatever
information
>I found there was "research", I could have saved myself a *lot* of time
earning
>my Ph.D.!!! :-)
Shhhhhhhhh!
Kevin
Steve Levicoff
> Incidentally Steve, has your opinion of TRACS changed any since you
> published your book?? Would you place them at the level of the DETC??
Mot significantly. There has been some improvement in TRACS since the
Liberty boys took over, but they still accredit some questionable
schools. My primary objections to TRACS, however, are based on the
church-state/legal factors and their doctrinala restrictions vis-a-vis
the creation-in-six-calendar-days requirement.
Jimmy
brilliance, son, not with all of the letters after your name.]
Now, now, Steve you surely noticed that this is the first time I have
ever used any "titles." I do notice Dr. Bear uses his. I have seen
people with high quality education use titles and I have seen them not
use titles. Dr. Lloyd John Ogilvie, for instance, is one of the most
brilliant theologians in America today. John Gray uses no title. Does
this mean they are on equal par? I hardly doubt it. On the other
hand, Laura Schlessinger uses a title and so does Adrian Rogers.
Again, no equal par here. The point? Titles don't make people.
Degrees don't make people. Character is developed. Whether you sign
Dr. Steve Levicoff or not I still have a great deal of respect for you
as a well-educated, highly learned, skillfully articulate individual.
Your title is pointless. Your skills, talents and gifts are priceless.
Jimmy
Bruce Tait
>
> Now, now, Steve you surely noticed that this is the first time I have
> ever used any "titles." I do notice Dr. Bear uses his. I have seen
> people with high quality education use titles and I have seen them not
> use titles. Dr. Lloyd John Ogilvie, for instance, is one of the most
> brilliant theologians in America today. John Gray uses no title. Does
> this mean they are on equal par? I hardly doubt it. On the other
> hand, Laura Schlessinger uses a title and so does Adrian Rogers.
> Again, no equal par here. The point? Titles don't make people.
> Degrees don't make people. Character is developed. Whether you sign
> Dr. Steve Levicoff or not I still have a great deal of respect for you
> as a well-educated, highly learned, skillfully articulate individual.
> Your title is pointless. Your skills, talents and gifts are priceless.
Actually, I think Steve is perhaps the *least* hung-up on titles of
any NG regular. About the only time he uses the "Dr." title is to make fun of
himself or someone else.
Bruce
nort...@my-deja.com
claiming a Doctor of Ministry and one can assume it is not accredited
based on a lack of any other academic credential (ie MDiv or
equivalent), then all I can say is tsk...tsk.
As a general comment, I think I would rather see I person come clean
with the fact that they have no formal education, rather than
attempting to create one (I am not implying that Jakes is doing this).
There is more honesty and integrity in just saying that you are self
taught rather than coming up with questionable degrees. Some
people/denominations are quite happy with clergy who are *called*
regardless of formal theological preparation. T.D. Jakes is certainly
a powerful speaker/presence who would flourish regardless of whether he
adds letters after his name.
Hank Hanegraaf (Christian Research Institute) is an example of someone
without formal theological education (I do not believe he has an earned
degree of any kind). I believe he recently received an honorary
doctorate from Southern Evangelical Seminary(?) which IIRC is Norman
Geisler's seminary. Hanegraaf makes no pretense of anything but self
study. I do not know how theologians perceive him. Although he may
have to defend his lack of credentials, he is not defending the
integrity of them (unlike Walter Martin whose work would have stood on
its own without the Califoria Coast degree). Hanegraaf has had some
accusations of plagarism regarding his memory system from some former
employees of CRI. Walter Martin's reputation got raked over the coals
by some Mormon apologists who questioned everything from his Southern
Baptist ordination to his PhD (did not appreciate their inclusion in
Kingom of the Cults). Incidentally, Weldon's & Ankerberg's (Christian
Apologists) credentials have also been questioned (they attacked the
Mormons & the Mormons attacked back). Steve may remember more
details. It is probably better to let critics have to spend their time
arguing their position by attempting to defeat your agruments as
opposed to being able to bring ones credibility & integrity into
question.
North
In article <t4bgg47...@corp.supernews.com>,
"Kevin Stewart" <ke...@jacksonmi.com> wrote:
>
> nort...@my-deja.com wrote in message <9241mp$am2
Steven King
I am reminded that those who know do not speak and those who speak....
http://pages.about.com/jclifton/
As a former minister I wonder if you missed all the sections in the Bible on
"pride" and "humility?"
When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with humility comes wisdom
Proverbs 11:2 (NIV)
Steven King
Steven King
get it you don't want to be called "doctor."
Could it be an admission that every door opened reveals a few hundred that
one didn't even know existed? Humility...take a bow.
Steven King
Don't worry about the world ending today, it's already tomorrow in
Australia.
Steve Levicoff
I am delighted that you posted this URL, Steven - most informative.
(And nice to see you on the newsgroup again. I hope you're doing well.)
I find Jimmy's web site amusing on several counts. His headline
identifies him as "The Rev. Dr. James Walter Clifton, LMHC., LCSW, LMFT,
Nationally Certified Clinical Psychologist. However, his profile
states, in relevant part, "I received my Ph.D. from Bethany Theological
Seminary and my Psy.D. from Summit University. I am a state licensed
clinical social worker, marriage and family therapist and mental health
counselor. I specialize in addictions, depression, anxiety and mental
retardation. I am a Certified Cognitive-Behavioral Therapist, Certified
Addictions Specialist and a Diplomate with the American Psychotherapy
Association in addition to being a member of the American Psychological
Society and the International Center for the Study of Psychiatry and
Psychology . . . Finally, I am an ordained minister of the General
Conference of Evangelical Protestant Churches serving as its General
Overseer."
In other words, his headline identifies him as a psychologist, but his
bio does not. My guess, since he did not specifically cite license as a
psychologist, is that he is, in fact, *not* a licensed psychologist.
And, as any student of psychology knows, anyone who claims to be a
psychologist without licensure is committing a crime.
Jimmy recently published a list of the schools he attended, but did not
link each school to a specific degree. Therefore, since Summit
University was in the middle of his posted list on the newsgroup, I find
it interesting that both of his *doctorates* are from degree mills.
And, in terms of his being the "General Overseer" of the alleged
denomination in which he holds his ordination, all I can say is, "How
conveeeeeeeeenient."
Based on the above, I feel confident in stating at this point that Jimmy
is a con artist. (And, as we have seen several times here, not a very
good one.]
Finally, because Jimmy seems to be such a fan of "Freddie" K.C. Price (I
don't think anyone ever referred to Price as "Freddie" on a web site
until Jimmy did, which I think is a hoot) and Bishop T.D. Jakes, I
mistakenly assumed that Jimmy was African American. The photo on Jimmy's
web site indicates otherwise, of course. Therefore, I would like to
apologize to the entire African American community at large, and to
express my delight at the fact that they need not be embarrassed by
having Jimmy Clifton as a member.
Barry Foster
http://expage.com/genconferenceministers
Hey Jimmy .... is your org. an ordination mill?
http://www.expage.com/page/genconference
I have a general observation to AED. It seems that unaccredited "degrees" and
ordination mills tend to cluster together. Any thoughts?
Barry
Barry Foster
http://expage.com/page/counselingministries
Steven King
"Steve Levicoff" <levi...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3A4A4CA8...@ix.netcom.com...
> Steven King wrote:
>
> > I am reminded that those who know do not speak and those who speak....
> >
> > http://pages.about.com/jclifton/
> >
> > As a former minister I wonder if you missed all the sections in the
Bible on
> > "pride" and "humility?"
> >
> > When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with humility comes wisdom
> > Proverbs 11:2 (NIV)
> >
> > Steven King
>
> I am delighted that you posted this URL, Steven - most informative.
> (And nice to see you on the newsgroup again. I hope you're doing well.)
Yes, doing well...thank you.
I'll be trying to contribute more and more...
Steven King
Steven King
Steven King
> http://expage.com/page/counselingministries
Marc Axelrod
the people he counsels ought to know that ahead of time. But I still
think you guys are being too hard on the guy. (Or maybe there's more to
the story?)
Steve Levicoff
My guess is that this is not Goldblatt. Goldie is far too sloppy in his
presentation. He does his schtick, as it were, simply for fun here on
the newsgroup (and on alt.religion.universal-life), and is not polished
enough to turn it into a profitble scam.
Steve Levicoff
> i would agree that Dr. Clifton's degrees are not accredited. And maybe
> the people he counsels ought to know that ahead of time. But I still
> think you guys are being too hard on the guy. (Or maybe there's more to
> the story?)
Check his web sites, Marc, especially those cited by Barry Foster (in
previous posts here). Jimmy is running an ordination mill. We're
talking about more than unaccredited degrees here (which happen to be
from degree mills); the guy is an outright fraud.
Jimmy
noticed since that BOTH are now "GONE." This is NOT funny or
humorous. How DARE anyone hacking into the sites and "backing" them
out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Being a Christian prevents me from contacting
the FCC. This is the lowest of lows and I do not appreciate it one bit.
On anothe note, the Evangelical Protestant Church is not an ordination
mill. Contact the Congregational Library, Boston, and borrow the book,
THE EVANGELICAL PROTESTANT MOVEMENT by Charles Hanko. Write the
National Association of Congregational Christian Churches and request a
copy of the February/March 2000 edition of THE CONGREGATIONALIST and
read an article about the Evangel. Prot. Ch.entitled "German Church" as
it relates the history of the First Congregational Church of Etna,
Pennsylvania. Now, as far as my credentials being bogus I happen to
also be credentialed by the Reformed Presy. Ch. as well as the Unit.-
Univ. Ch. as we strive for a single Protestant body in this country.
My term as Gen. Overseer with the Evan. Prot. Ch. expires in a few
months and I will probably not be affiliated with them anymore.
Jimmy Clifton
Steve Levicoff
> On two ocassions someone posted two web sites referring to me. I have
> noticed since that BOTH are now "GONE." This is NOT funny or
> humorous. How DARE anyone hacking into the sites and "backing" them
> out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Being a Christian prevents me from contacting
> the FCC. This is the lowest of lows and I do not appreciate it one bit.
How conveeeeeeeenient. I, for one, do not buy it. The web site on
about.com which you allege was posted by someone else was, in fact,
written in your style, James. Methinks that you are a bullshit artist -
and not a very good one.
> On anothe note, the Evangelical Protestant Church is not an ordination
> mill. Contact the Congregational Library, Boston, and borrow the book,
> THE EVANGELICAL PROTESTANT MOVEMENT by Charles Hanko. Write the
> National Association of Congregational Christian Churches and request a
> copy of the February/March 2000 edition of THE CONGREGATIONALIST and
> read an article about the Evangel. Prot. Ch.entitled "German Church" as
> it relates the history of the First Congregational Church of Etna,
> Pennsylvania. Now, as far as my credentials being bogus I happen to
> also be credentialed by the Reformed Presy. Ch. as well as the Unit.-
> Univ. Ch. as we strive for a single Protestant body in this country.
> My term as Gen. Overseer with the Evan. Prot. Ch. expires in a few
> months and I will probably not be affiliated with them anymore.
Let's see if I understand this . . . You claim to be credentialed by the
Congregational Church *and* the Reformed Presbyterian Church *and* the
General Conference of Evangelical Protestant Churches. One is
congregational, one is hierarchial, and one claims to be Restoration (by
virtue of its reliance on the teachings of Barton Stone, which would
certainly explain your allusions to the Churches of Christ).
At the very least, you are a theological schizophrenic (which most
people would not realize, unless they were familiar with the specific
polities of denominations). But the bottom line is that you're still a
bullshit artist.
Face it, dude, the more you try to defend yourself, the more you come
off as a sleazeball.
Kevin Stewart
And your abusing your "expert" standing with a line of bullshit you have NO
background for. (By which I mean 'ordination mills', not academic mills.)
You have background supposedly heavy in church-state and have said that at
least the ULC is legal. You have said ordination is not a matter of
education. Then you speak of (legal but)illegitimate ordination mills.
You really want it both ways, don't you?
Kevin
Steve Levicoff wrote in message <3A4AA996...@ix.netcom.com>...
snipped
Kevin Stewart
Jimmy wrote in message <92e9j6$d8b$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
snipped
Being a Christian prevents me from contacting
>the FCC. This is the lowest of lows and I do not appreciate it one bit.
At the risk of sounding like I agree with Steve, this is BS, Jimmy. Being a
Christian mandates seeking justice, not allowing it in the name of some
warped connect-the-(scriptural)-dots martyrdom. (Forgiveness, if that's your
thing, also stresses finding the culprit, if possible.)
Kevin
snipped
Jimmy
about degree mills, human nature, emasculation, etc. Anyway, there
seems to be quite a bit of controversy and needless blather concerning
the title "Doctor." This word is from the Latin "docere" to teach. A
doctor is a teacher, plain and simple. Rabbi means the exact same
thing in the Hebrew and in Aramaic it is Rabboni. So, let's stop this
nonesense and get on with the real purpose of this forum. Let me begin
by asking a very simple, innocent and VERY SINCERE question: The
Federal government has shut down many degree mills and rightly so. Why
have they not shut down those referred to on this forum as "degree
mills?" Again, I am here to learn and this is not a smart alecky
question. I really am curious.
Jimmy Clifton
uiupe...@hotmail.com
One of these days, I'm going to have to break down and buy a Bear's
Guide so that I can understand this issue better myself. I suspect
that your answer lies somewhere in the First Amendment to the U.S.
Constitution as it has been interpreted by our judiciary.
Just out of curiosity, Jimmy, why should anyone seek "ordination" or
"degrees" from any of these entities? What intrinsic and/or extrinsic
benefits accrue to the person who purchases such a credential? That
question has never been answered to my satisfaction.
Michael Barger
uiupe...@hotmail.com
Steve Levicoff
> In spite of all the ephemera on this forum I am learning quite a bit
> about degree mills, human nature, emasculation, etc. Anyway, there
> seems to be quite a bit of controversy and needless blather concerning
> the title "Doctor." This word is from the Latin "docere" to teach. A
> doctor is a teacher, plain and simple. Rabbi means the exact same
> thing in the Hebrew and in Aramaic it is Rabboni. So, let's stop this
> nonesense and get on with the real purpose of this forum.
James, anyone who has been following your recent threads should be
wearing hip-high boots by this point, considering that both of your
doctorates are from degree mills. In your case, a doctoral title means
much more than the role of a teacher, it is the way that you market
yourself as a supposedly professional counselor. And as a counseor who
uses degree mill doctorates, you are ultimately quite dangerous to your
clients and to the public.
> Let me begin
> by asking a very simple, innocent and VERY SINCERE question: The
> Federal government has shut down many degree mills and rightly so. Why
> have they not shut down those referred to on this forum as "degree
> mills?" Again, I am here to learn and this is not a smart alecky
> question. I really am curious.
You may be curious, sport, but since you are using degree mill
credentials in a professional context *and* running an ordination mill,
I do not see the need to provide you with any legal information that
would contribute to your scam.
Steve Levicoff
> One of these days, I'm going to have to break down and buy a Bear's
> Guide so that I can understand this issue better myself. I suspect
> that your answer lies somewhere in the First Amendment to the U.S.
> Constitution as it has been interpreted by our judiciary.
You will not see this covered per se in John's book. In brief, however,
it has to do with the exemption to licensure for religious
degree-granting institutions. (And no, despite numerous requests that
have appeared here in the past, I will not provide the list of states.)
> Just out of curiosity, Jimmy, why should anyone seek "ordination" or
> "degrees" from any of these entities? What intrinsic and/or extrinsic
> benefits accrue to the person who purchases such a credential? That
> question has never been answered to my satisfaction.
For the same reason that people buy fake doctorates, that they buy
unearned British titles, ad inifinitum - they like titles. Or, as the
Bible pits it, they like "sitting in the chief seats of the synagogue."
Oh, and in the case of bogus ordinations, some of them like cheating on
their taxes.
Steven King
> were my sites and I did create them. When I said "posted" I meant
> someone listed the URL's on here and since then they have disappeared.
>
> Jimmy
If by disappeared you are referring to the poster...then know this...I am
still very much here. I agree that your 15 minutes are up. I suggest you
move to another NG, or create one for your folly.
Steven King
Thomas Nixon
> It looks like it gets worse.
>
> http://expage.com/genconferenceministers
>
> Hey Jimmy .... is your org. an ordination mill?
What I really like about this site is the banner ad for Ricky Martin posters. You
all, of course, see the connection between Ricky Martin and the large bible
displayed below the banner.
Tom
Bill Highsmith
authorization you were using for the web sites; if you can't supply that
information (you can't), I don't think that they will be of much help to
you.
Bill Highsmith
"Jimmy" <drcl...@democratic-socialism.org> wrote in message
news:92e9j6$d8b$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Steve Levicoff
> Okay, Steve, maybe I used the wrong word when I said "posted." Those
> were my sites and I did create them. When I said "posted" I meant
> someone listed the URL's on here and since then they have disappeared.
Let's see if I understand this . . . You imply that someone wrote the
about.com web site, then admit that *you* are actually the author but
someone hacked into your site and erased it. Once again, Jimmy, how
conveeeeeenient. Especially since you illegally referred to yourself as
a psychologist on that site. (And don't claim that the title is based
solely on certification. Under the law, if you hold yourself out to be
a psychologist in any manner and are not licensed, you are criminally
guilty of unauthorized practice.)
> P.S. Would you capitalize "sleazeball" when referring to me from now
> on, please. Thank you.
Uh, no.
> Oh, by the way, as you know the
> Congregationalists, Unitarians and the Stone movemens all have
> something in common. The United Church is a combination of all three
> of these plus Lutheran bodies, Reformed bodies, Evangelical bodies,
> etc. At one time there was "unitarian," evangelical fervor in all
> these denominations. You should read Stone's replies to the
> Springfield Presbytery upon his ordination.
Once again, you are incorrect, inacurate, and obviously an amateur. And
yes, being a good ol' Pennsylvania boy, I have read Stone. And as
anyone who has contributed to the ordination thread knows, Stone and the
Churches of Christ are set apart from the other bodies based on the
doctrine of baptismal regeneration, and your own ordination mill, as I
recall, is set apart from all the others based on its unitarian stance.
But being an amateur at all things, you obviously wouldn't know the
differences.
Give it up, Jimmy. The more you write, the deeper you bury yourself in
your own manure pile.
Russ Blahetka
<snip
> out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Being a Christian prevents me from contacting
> the FCC. This is the lowest of lows and I do not appreciate it one bit.
Why is that? If you feel a law is broken, then as a Christian you have a
duty to reprt it.
<snip>
John Bear
> Let me begin
> by asking a very simple, innocent and VERY SINCERE question: The
> Federal government has shut down many degree mills and rightly so. Why
> have they not shut down those referred to on this forum as "degree
> mills?"
Of course I cannot speak for the Federal government. But I have been the
only expert witness used by the FBI in degree mill cases since 1979, so I do
have some relevant information.
The simple answer is that it take a really long time to build a case that
will satisfy a grand jury in today's world. Recall that LaSalle was a
religious school, owned and operated by a church. It took considerable
resources of the FBI, the IRS, and the Postal Inspectors, to build their
case against LaSalle, covering all bases, from the nature of the church to
the procedures for awarding degrees. After five years, they went to the
federal grand jury, and secured 18 indictments, which resulted in the three
top administrators going to federal prison.
So shutting down a degree mill, especially a large and clever one, is not
like shutting down the guy selling ten dollar solid gold watches on the
street corner. There is a limited budget and limited personnel, and so there
is necessarily a triage situation which is good news for some of the smaller
and/or luckier (and/or harder-praying?) perpetrators.
Since the Republican platform says that the federal government should not
intervene in matters of state policy, except, of course, in matters of
Florida elections, it seems safe to predict that we are in for 4.0 years of
diminished activity with regard to dealing with the bad guys.
______________
|__ ___ __|
.--. | |714| | .--.
: (\ "\ __\__/__/."/) : John Bear, Ph.D.
'. \_______/` .' (Michigan State U., 1966)
/' \ / `\ jo...@ursa.net
/ o} {o \ Bearsน Guide to Earning
| / \ | Degrees by Distance
| /' .==. `\ | Learning, 14th ed., 1/01
\ | . \__/ . | / http://www.degree.net
'._ \.' __ './ _.'
/ ``'._/''\_.'`` \
`--`
__/\__
\ /
/_/\_\
Kevin Stewart
hazing?
Kevin
Thomas Nixon wrote in message <3A4AF0D5...@ix.netcom.com>...
Kevin Stewart
Steve Levicoff wrote in message <3A4AD311...@ix.netcom.com>...
snipped
>Oh, and in the case of bogus ordinations, some of them like cheating on
>their taxes.
Oh, yeah. That's a biggie. Getting a mail order/on-line ordination may
actually be a red flag, fool. Ever think of that -- especially after some of
the ads for M.O. preacherships several yrs ago?
Yer droolin', sonny.
Kevin
Kevin Stewart
uiupe...@hotmail.com wrote in message
<3a4acb19...@news.cnetech.com>...
Not to speak for Jimmy, but I think you're getting 'registered' as well as
ordained with the group. Or it goes in part for the cost of whatever
credentials are + a donation.
>Just out of curiosity, Jimmy, why should anyone seek "ordination" or
>"degrees" from any of these entities? What intrinsic and/or extrinsic
>benefits accrue to the person who purchases such a credential?
If they're spending JUST to get ordained, it's a good, valid question.
Perhaps you could answer one: Why spend the money and the time getting
indoctrinated or educated "properly" in an area you should have gotten in
church, (except perhaps for Languages, etc.)? Today, getting a
denominational/(R)A theological education is like what some UU ministers so:
get a proper M.Div.+ as preparaition to serve a congregation of atheists,
CUUP (the Pagan 'division'), Liberal Christians, Buddhists et al.
And the question remains: What exactly is conferred by an ordination beyond
the secular aspects. It has nothing in and of itself to do with preaching,
visitation, conducting Bible studies, etc. and(?) everything(?) to do with
weddings, etc.
It's getting to be like my good ol' cult -- never answer a question that
makes the "wrong" point.
Kevin
Kevin Stewart
Steve Levicoff wrote in message <3A4AD256...@ix.netcom.com>...
snipped
In your case, a doctoral title means
>much more than the role of a teacher, it is the way that you market
>yourself as a supposedly professional counselor.
His various other things play no role then?
And as a counseor who
>uses degree mill doctorates, you are ultimately quite dangerous to your
>clients and to the public.
Ohgoooodddyyyy! The implied inferred and suggestive potential in an encore
performance. Keep trying, Doc!
snipped
>You may be curious, sport, but since you are using degree mill
>credentials in a professional context *and* running an ordination mill,
>I do not see the need to provide you with any legal information that
>would contribute to your scam.
That is past due for retirement, you ol' slavedriver! (BTW, can you say how
he' running a mill -- or do you just get a kick out of innuendo-slathering?)
Kevin
Remember, Torquemada & Hathorn were experts, too!
snipped
Dan Snelson
"Kevin Stewart" <ke...@jacksonmi.com> wrote in message news:t4o6tfa...@corp.supernews.com...
|
| Steve Levicoff wrote in message <3A4AD311...@ix.netcom.com>...
|
|
|
| snipped
|
| >Oh, and in the case of bogus ordinations, some of them like cheating on
| >their taxes.
|
| Oh, yeah. That's a biggie. Getting a mail order/on-line ordination may
| actually be a red flag, fool. Ever think of that -- especially after some of
| the ads for M.O. preacherships several yrs ago?
|
| Yer droolin', sonny.
|
| Kevin
Kevin,
The foolishness of attempted tax fraud would boggle your mind.
Dan Snelson (whose wife was employed by the IRS criminal investigation division, and came home with a whole bunch
of I can't talk about it, but wait until tomorrow's newspaper...)
Leland Milton Goldlbatt, Ph.D.
levi...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
> My guess is that this is not Goldblatt. Goldie is far too sloppy in
his
> presentation. He does his schtick, as it were, simply for fun here on
> the newsgroup (and on alt.religion.universal-life), and is not
polished
> enough to turn it into a profitble scam.
Gee Steve,
Thanks, I did not think you cared! Have a happy new year!
Yes, Dr. Goldblatt is a self professed Hyper-Calvinist.
Leland Milton Goldlbatt, Ph.D.
Jimmy <drcl...@democratic-socialism.org> wrote:
> THE EVANGELICAL PROTESTANT MOVEMENT by Charles Hanko. Write the
> National Association of Congregational Christian Churches and request
Without prejudice; Dr. Goldblatt pontificates:
Was Charles Hanko related to Herman Hanko?
Shalom,
Prof. Leland Milton Goldblatt, Ph.D.
of Normal, Illinois
"It's a very sad occasion," Prof. Leland Milton Goldblatt, Ph.D.
declared after this December Bush victory
Supreme Court ruling, "and one that could set a terrible legal
precedent. Al Gore isn't the only
loser. It's democracy and the American people as well."
For spammers:
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Dr. Goldblatt
The esteemed Reverend of the Church of Godblatt.
I do not sit with deceitful men, nor will I go with pretenders. I hate
the assembly of evil-doers, and I will not sit with the wicked. --
Psalm 26:4-5
"If at first you don't succeed; try, try again. Then quit.
No use being a fool about it." - W. C. Fields
"Ignore 'em, m'dear, they're beneath your dignity." -W.C. Fields
Please be advised newsgroups are a public forum, and you have to
choose to read a particular post. Dr. Goldblatt et al encourage you
NOT to read the posts of anyone with whom you know you will disagree.
To this end, Dr. Goldblatt et al recommends the use of a newsreader that
supports kill-filters. This will allow you to filter(censur) your
newsreading
so that you need never see a post from a particular author or with a
particular subject, etc.
Ivan Cohen
I remember when everybody posted to Usenet with their real, deliverable
e-mail address. Of all the sins committed by the spammers, destroying
the viability of the open Internet was the worst.
Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things
that matter. -Martin Luther King, Jr.
"There is no limit to what you can achieve
if you don't care who gets the credit." Robert Woodruff- Coca Cola
My ten-year old, under the tutelage of me, was becoming quite
knowledgeable about the Bible. Then one day
she floored me by asking, "Which Virgin was the mother of
Jesus? The virgin Mary or the King James Virgin?"
************************************************************************
*******************
The Reverend Doctor Goldblatt says:
I will go as far as Martin Luther, where he says, "If any man ascribes
anything
of salvation, even the very least thing, to the free will of man, he
knows
nothing of grace, and he has not learned Jesus Christ rightly."
Sermons, Vol. 1, p.395
-------
Jesus said, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord,
shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth
the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say
to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in
thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy
name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess
unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that
work iniquity." (Matt.7:21-23)
---------------------
GOD says:
*"There is none righteous, no, not one." - the Bible
....Not by works of righteousness which we have done,
but according to HIS mercy HE saved us, through the
washing of regeneration and renewing of the mind.
-------------------
The Reverend Doctor Goldblatt asks:
Do you say that you are a Christian? If you have not come to see the
Bible as the Word of God. . . if you have not come to see yourself
as a = helldeserving sinner. . . if you have not come to personally
trust in Jesus Christ, the God-man who died for sinners. . . and if
you are not trusting in God through Christ alone, then I fear that you
may "have no = hope and are without God in the world," Eph. 2:13. May
the Spirit of God bring = you to a saving faith in the Son of God.
----------------------------
The Reverend Doctor Goldblatt says:
This post is intended to promote Reformation Theology and proclaim
salvation solely by the grace of God -- a salvation through faith
alone, in Jesus Christ alone, based on the Scriptures alone, to
the glory of God alone.
Romans 9:31-32 --
{31} But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath
not attained to the
law of righteousness. {32} Wherefore? Because they sought it not by
faith, but as it were
by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
John 8:32 (KJV) And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make
you free.
Leland Milton Goldlbatt, Ph.D.
> THE EVANGELICAL PROTESTANT MOVEMENT by Charles Hanko. Write the
> National Association of Congregational Christian Churches and request
Without prejudice; Dr. Goldblatt pontificates:
Shalom,
Ivan Cohen
************************************************************************
*******************
--
=-=
Leland Milton Goldblatt, Ph.D.
The Doctor's homepage: http://www.goldblatt.faithweb.com
Dr. Goldblatt's email: leland...@mail.com
Barry
I realize this is alt.education.distance and not a Christian history or
theology class, but I'd like to make just two comments concerning your
remarks:
1) B.W. Stone, while having much to offer in some limited areas, is
viewed as a heretic by church of Christ/Christian Church scholars.
Stone was a Modalist. I've graduated from two Christian Church colleges
and they both taught against Stone's theology.
2) church of Christ/Christian Churches are not baptismal
regenerationalists. While holding a higher view of baptism than most
evangelicals, baptismal regeneration refers to those who believe the
act of baptism itself brings salvation, with or without the necessary
prerequisite of faith. The only religious groups that I am aware of
that are true baptismal regenerationalists are the Roman Catholics and
the Mormons.
Thanks,
Barry
In article <3A4B3631...@ix.netcom.com>,
Steve Levicoff
> Steve,
> I realize this is alt.education.distance and not a Christian history or
> theology class, but I'd like to make just two comments concerning your
> remarks:
>
> 1) B.W. Stone, while having much to offer in some limited areas, is
> viewed as a heretic by church of Christ/Christian Church scholars.
> Stone was a Modalist. I've graduated from two Christian Church colleges
> and they both taught against Stone's theology.
Not necessarily true, although he was a tertiary figure in their
formation.
> 2) church of Christ/Christian Churches are not baptismal
> regenerationalists. While holding a higher view of baptism than most
> evangelicals, baptismal regeneration refers to those who believe the
> act of baptism itself brings salvation, with or without the necessary
> prerequisite of faith. The only religious groups that I am aware of
> that are true baptismal regenerationalists are the Roman Catholics and
> the Mormons.
They do not use the term baptismal regeneration, but they practice it to
the hilt. (I did not go to a C.C. college, but I lived at one - Pacific
Christian College in Fullerton, CA - now Hope International U. - when I
was at the Simon Greenleaf School of Law. The baptism doctrines of the
C.C. were a regular topic of debate between the PCC'ers and the
SGSL'ers.)
Barry
As stated before, I have three degrees from Christian Church schools
and none of them teach this doctrine. I also have been pastoring in the
Christian Churches since 1988, have a brother-in-law who is the
Department Head of New Testament at Cincinnati Bible College and
Seminary, and my father was a pastor in the Christian Churches for 34
years -- none of us, nor our colleagues teach this doctrine. We teach
salvation by grace through faith.
Barry
> --
> ,-~~-.___.
> / | ' \
> ( ) 0
> \_/-, ,----'
> ==== //
> / \-'~; /~~~(O)
> / __/~| / |
> =( _____| (_________|
> ------------------------------
> Steve Levicoff
> levi...@ix.netcom.com
> http://levicoff.tripod.com
> ------------------------------
>
Jimmy
the book THE CANE RIDGE READER edited by Hoke S. Dickinson.
Jimmy
Steve Levicoff
> As stated before, I have three degrees from Christian Church schools
> and none of them teach this doctrine. I also have been pastoring in the
> Christian Churches since 1988, have a brother-in-law who is the
> Department Head of New Testament at Cincinnati Bible College and
> Seminary, and my father was a pastor in the Christian Churches for 34
> years -- none of us, nor our colleagues teach this doctrine. We teach
> salvation by grace through faith.
Barry, you already know my position on pissing contests. While I admit
that it would be fun to engage in some debate regarding the differences
in our positions on the Christian Churches' doctrine regarding baptism,
a.e.d. is certainly not the venue for such a debate. Therefore, I
suggest that we call this a point of cordial disagreement and leave it
there.
(One I cannot resist, however . . . Since when do the C.C. use the term
"pastor" in the first place? But I digress . . .)
curt...@mailbox.bellatlantic.net
graduate of Dallas Theological Seminary. Even if he wasn't, his track
record in ministry far outweighs many Ph.D's that I know in ministry.
L.J.
nort...@my-deja.com wrote:
> I admit that I have never visited his website. If as you say he is now
> claiming a Doctor of Ministry and one can assume it is not accredited
> based on a lack of any other academic credential (ie MDiv or
> equivalent), then all I can say is tsk...tsk.
>
> As a general comment, I think I would rather see I person come clean
> with the fact that they have no formal education, rather than
> attempting to create one (I am not implying that Jakes is doing this).
> There is more honesty and integrity in just saying that you are self
> taught rather than coming up with questionable degrees. Some
> people/denominations are quite happy with clergy who are *called*
> regardless of formal theological preparation. T.D. Jakes is certainly
> a powerful speaker/presence who would flourish regardless of whether he
> adds letters after his name.
>
> Hank Hanegraaf (Christian Research Institute) is an example of someone
> without formal theological education (I do not believe he has an earned
> degree of any kind). I believe he recently received an honorary
> doctorate from Southern Evangelical Seminary(?) which IIRC is Norman
> Geisler's seminary. Hanegraaf makes no pretense of anything but self
> study. I do not know how theologians perceive him. Although he may
> have to defend his lack of credentials, he is not defending the
> integrity of them (unlike Walter Martin whose work would have stood on
> its own without the Califoria Coast degree). Hanegraaf has had some
> accusations of plagarism regarding his memory system from some former
> employees of CRI. Walter Martin's reputation got raked over the coals
> by some Mormon apologists who questioned everything from his Southern
> Baptist ordination to his PhD (did not appreciate their inclusion in
> Kingom of the Cults). Incidentally, Weldon's & Ankerberg's (Christian
> Apologists) credentials have also been questioned (they attacked the
> Mormons & the Mormons attacked back). Steve may remember more
> details. It is probably better to let critics have to spend their time
> arguing their position by attempting to defeat your agruments as
> opposed to being able to bring ones credibility & integrity into
> question.
>
> North
>
> In article <t4bgg47...@corp.supernews.com>,
> "Kevin Stewart" <ke...@jacksonmi.com> wrote:
> >
> > nort...@my-deja.com wrote in message <9241mp$am2
> $1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> > >In article <3A456E16...@ix.netcom.com>,
> > > levi...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> >
> > snipped
> >
> > TD Jakes as far as I know
> > >has no formal theological training and has found him self in some
> > >interesting situations theologically.
> >
> > According to his website, he graduated from Center Business College
> in 1972,
> > (at age 15), and recieved a Doctor of Ministry in 1995. The Bishop
> started
> > storefront church with 10 people in '80,(went FT in '82) got on local
> radio
> > in '82, (when he apparently quit 6 yrs of'various positions in
> business and
> > industry'). He relocated to Dallas, taking 50 families with him(?) in
> 1996.
> > Between 1994-1998, he wrote 20 books, (7 in 96, 6 in 97). His most
> popular
> > talk was entitled "Woman Thou Art Loosed" in '92; the book by that
> name was
> > his first.
> >
> > Points of interest: His D.Min has no corresponding school given, (his
> > college reference gives no degree level) and I saw to reference
> to "Dr.
> > Jakes"; apparent college grad at 15, though he started preaching
> while a
> > Psych major at WVState); use of "Bishop", (what do you think he payed
> for
> > it, Huffboy Bill?) Apparently started his own church (tres ULC!); 50
> > famililies became 17,000 members church in 2-3 yrs. Publiched 13
> books in 22
> > months. Considered to be one of the leading Chrsitian leaders, along
> > withBilly Graham and Mother Theresa.
> >
> > Not bad for someone who apparently had trouble holding a job for 6
> yrs.!
> > (All these points refute the ideas that are 'gospel' here.)
> >
> > Reading his site took me back to reading similar material on HWA,
> especially
> > the "Pastor ... humanitarian, author. . . broadcaster . . . the roles
> and
> > compassion of [....]" line at the beginning of TD's site.
> >
> > snipped
> >
> > To the best of
> > >my knowledge, T.D. Jakes also does not lay claim to unrecognized
> > >theological credentials.
> >
> > "Bishop"? "Doctor"? Who knows?
> >
> > Kevin
> >
> > snipped
nort...@my-deja.com
curt...@bellatlantic.net wrote:
> Don't discuss something if you don't know the facts. T.D.Jakes is a
> graduate of Dallas Theological Seminary.
You might want to tell him that. He apparently left it off his web
page. I visited it after Kevin mentioned it and T.D. Jakes site lists
exactly what Kevin states below in terms of academic qualifications.
It does not mention where his DMin comes from. Most honorary ministry
degrees are D.D.'s (what one pastor called *Donated Dignity*).
A normal academic progression or list might be
B.A. XYZ University
MDiv ZYX Seminary
DMin AO Seminary
It may well be that TD Jakes has not listed all his qualifications.
>Even if he wasn't, his track
> record in ministry far outweighs many Ph.D's that I know in ministry.
>
> L.J.
We are talking apples and oranges. One is the achievement of academic
credentials and the other is practical achievement. You will find this
to be the case in many professions. For instance, there are ivory
tower academics (Ph.D) far less competent to counsel than the Masters
level therapists they prepare in college. Or in business there are
people with practical business sense who become far more successful
than a Harvard MBA (eg. Bill Gates).
I don't think anyone is disparaging TD Jakes as a phenomenon. He has
been extremely successful, helped many people, been compared to Billy
Graham, etc. Now, that does not mean his theology is academically
sound but then I beleive (IIRC) he admitted that in a Christianity
Today article when questioned about issues surrounding the Trinity. He
said something to the effect that he is not a theologian. No one was
trying to imply that he is not a good
minister/speaker/humanitarian/author.
North