Why not baptize homosexuals?
Ernst Wilhelm von Tavische
Believer <pil...@executivemail.co.za> wrote:
>The Bible says nothing about a homosexual anywhere.
You show you are ignorant of the Bible then! The Bible may not use the trerm
"homosexual" but there is no doubt it condemns same sex sexual acts! Care to
deny what follows?
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=rk8kdtkturjo61vsiv022qhpbb5m0qha1d%404ax.com&output=gplain
Subject: Luther on _arsenokoites_ and _malakos_ (Royce Buehler Condones
Homosexuality as False Teachers Do.)
Message-ID: <rk8kdtkturjo61vsi...@4ax.com>
References: <3AB04592...@earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 22:44:05 GMT
On Thu, 15 Mar 2001 04:29:11 GMT, <3AB04592...@earthlink.net> Royce
Buehler <fig...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>The story so far:
>
>Glenn pointed out that the official Filipino translation of
>_arsenokoites_ was the Tagalog term for "child molester".
>
>Jim Upchurch made the rash assertion that "nobody agrees with
>you" - by which he meant, all 'real' translations translate
>both 'arsenokoitai' and 'malakoi' by some variation of
>"homosexual".
>
>(Jim Upchurch is, of course, as usual, dead wrong. Even the KJV
>translates _arsenokoites_ as "abusers of themselves with
>mankind" - which does not include all male homosexuals (and
>certainly no female homosexuals), unless you make the circular
>assumption that all homosexuality is "abuse". Similarly, the
>NIV translates it as "homosexual offenders" - which does not
>include all male homosexuals (and certainly no female homosexuals),
>unless you make the circular assumption that all homosexuality
>is an "offense".)
>
>I pointed out that Martin Luther is one of those "nobodies",
>since he translated _arsenokoitai_ as "Knabeschaender", rapers
>of boys.
>
>Unable to counter this fact in any rational fashion, Jim made
>the wild assertion that it doesn't matter that Martin Luther
>didn't think _arsenokoitai_ meant homosexuals. What matters,
>all of a sudden, is what Martin Luther thought _malakoi_ meant.
>
>This thrilling instalment:
>
>Well, it was (like almost all of Jim's wild goose chases) beside
>the point. But it was interesting in its own right. Today I
>had a chance to visit the copy of of Luther's translation of the
>Bible I sometimes drop in on. And I can now inform y'all:
>Jim Upchurch's childlike faith that Luther *must* have translated
>*that* one as "homosexual" is also completely off base.
>
>Luther translated _malakoi_ as "Weichlinge" - "weaklings."
>What he meant by this, I'm not certain. I doubt that he believed
>that only people who regularly pump iron can get into heaven.
>I'd guess that what he had in mind was people who failed to
>stand steadfast in the faith under persecution. His was a fairly
>literal translation into German of the Greek _malakoi_ (which
>is literally "soft ones"), since "Weichlinge" derives from the
>adjective, "weich", which has the primary meaning of "soft."
>
>What is perfectly clear is that Luther *didn't* mean soft
>in the sense of "effeminate." That would have been a different
>German word altogether.
>
>So, Jim, you're batting a perfect 0.000 on this one. Keep up
>the good work.
Royce goes 100% against the Bible in defending homosexuals. Everyone examine the
following:
>In article <8Ok96.2187$I6.4...@news-west.usenetserver.com>,
> "Micah Burke" <klock...@NOSPAMhotmail.com> writes:
>> > No....I don't think Jesus would allow a gay person to be stoned.
>> > Maybe under the law....but not under grace.
>> > Thank God for that.
:
>> A "gay" person in those days was executed not merely on
>> the basis of religious law, but also civil law.
:
>False. Not only were homosexual acts not capital crimes under
>Roman civil law, they were perfectly legal. There was no
>"religious law" against lesbian acts - nor against male/male
>acts other than anal penetration.
And you know what the Apostle Paul said in Romans 1 too!
I will show later.
>> Christ CONFIRMED both.
:
>He confirmed both religious and civil laws generally; but the
>specific laws against homosexuality you are assuming did not
>exist.
[...]
>Good exegesis.
Where does the term "exegesis" appear in the Bible?
>> People who claim homosexuality is compatable with
>> Christianity don't understand the nature of the gospel,
>> and its relationship to the law.
:
>People who claim we don't understand the nature of the gospel
>don't understand the nature of our faith.
Is this an admission of your orientation?
>> You cannot be saved unless you first die, and that includes your earthly
>> desires and fleshly lusts. We give our bodies
>> to God as a ~living sacrifice~ pleasing to him...
:
>Absolutely true.
:
>> acts such as homosexuality are clearly against the
>> moral code of the old law, therefore we know that
>> such an act could never be considered ~holy~
>> before him.
:
>Perfect nonsense. Eating shrimp and shaving are clearly
>against the code of the old law. No form of sex between two
>women was ever forbidden in the old law. Nothing in the
>Old Testament or the New Testament says that the old law
>was divided into a "moral" part and an "other" part; and
>nothing in either testament says that the law concerning
>"lying with a man as with a woman" belonged to the "moral"
>part.
>
>All homosexual acts are "clearly against" are the traditions
>of men to which you cling, without biblical justification.
YOU ARE IN VERY GREAT ERROR BELIAL!
What do you call this?
What does the Bible say about homosexuals and their activities or what
does it declare concerning "the gay and lesbian community"?
1 Corinthians 5
9 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral
people--
10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy
and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world.
11 But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls
himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer,
a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to
judge those inside?
13 God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."
1 Corinthians 6
9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be
deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male
prostitutes nor homosexual offenders
10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will
inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified,
you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our
God.
Romans 1:26-29,32 :: New King James Version (NKJV)
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women
exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.
27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in
their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and
receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God
gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not
fitting;
29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness...
32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice
such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve
of those who practice them.
<end>
For the record here are other Bible versions of verses 26 and 27
Romans 1:26-28 :: New International Version (NIV)
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women
exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.
27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and
were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with
other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their
perversion.
28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the
knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought
not to be done.
Romans 1:26-28 :: Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
26 Because of this did God give them up to dishonourable affections, for
even their females did change the natural use into that against nature;
27 and in like manner also the males having left the natural use of the
female, did burn in their longing toward one another; males with males
working shame, and the recompense of their error that was fit, in
themselves receiving.
28 And, according as they did not approve of having God in knowledge, God
gave them up to a disapproved mind, to do the things not seemly;
Notice verse 28 and how it speaks of the mental condition of what the
Bible describes as: "Men committed indecent acts with other men, and
received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion."
They have depraved minds!
Romans 1:28 :: New American Standard Bible (NASB)
And just as they did not see fit [1] to acknowledge God any longer, <*1>
God gave them over to a depraved mind..
Romans 1:28 :: King James Version (KJV)
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave
them over to a reprobate mind..
Romans 1:28 :: New King James Version (NKJV)
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave
them over to a debased mind..
Romans 1:28 :: NIV formatted (New Testament) (NIV-IBS)
Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the
knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind..
IOW they are mentally diseased!
Royce Buehler stating: "All homosexual acts are "clearly against" are the
traditions of men to which you cling, without biblical justification" shows that
he violates: "knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice
such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of
those who practice them" because he evidently does "approve of those who
practice them."
2 Peter 2
1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be
false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies,
even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on
themselves.
2 Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into
disrepute.
3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up.
Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has
not been sleeping.
4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,
putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;
6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and
made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;
7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives
of lawless men
Why did God condemn Sodom and Gomorrah and why does the scripture say:
"he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of
lawless men"?
Want to retract your very mis-informed statement:
>All homosexual acts are "clearly against" are the traditions
>of men to which you cling, without biblical justification.
Here is some Biblical justification as if the above scriptures aren't!
Genesis 19
1 The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the
gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down
with his face to the ground.
2 "My lords," he said, "please turn aside to your servant's house. You can wash
your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning."
"No," they answered, "we will spend the night in the square."
3 But he insisted so strongly that they did go with him and entered his house.
He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate.
4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of
Sodom--both young and old--surrounded the house.
5 They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out
to us so that we can have sex with them."
Want to retract your very mis-informed statement:
>All homosexual acts are "clearly against" are the traditions
>of men to which you cling, without biblical justification.
6 Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him
7 and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing.
8 Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them
out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don't do anything to
these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof."
9 "Get out of our way," they replied. And they said, "This fellow came here as
an alien, and now he wants to play the judge! We'll treat you worse than them."
They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door.
10 But the men inside reached out and pulled Lot back into the house and shut
the door.
11 Then they struck the men who were at the door of the house, young and old,
with blindness so that they could not find the door.
12 The two men said to Lot, "Do you have anyone else here--sons-in-law, sons or
daughters, or anyone else in the city who belongs to you? Get them out of here,
13 because we are going to destroy this place. The outcry to the LORD against
its people is so great that he has sent us to destroy it."
23 By the time Lot reached Zoar, the sun had risen over the land.
24 Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah--from the LORD
out of the heavens.
25 Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, including all those
living in the cities--and also the vegetation in the land.
26 But Lot's wife looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.
27 Early the next morning Abraham got up and returned to the place where he had
stood before the LORD.
28 He looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah, toward all the land of the plain,
and he saw dense smoke rising from the land, like smoke from a furnace.
Why did God destroy Sodom and Gomorrah? Remember what 2Peter said in what you
call the New Testament concerning Lot?
2 Peter 2
1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be
false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies,
even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on
themselves.
2 Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into
disrepute.
3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up.
Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has
not been sleeping.
4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,
putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;
6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and
made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;
7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives
of lawless men
FILTHY LIVES OF LAWLESS MEN who said: "Where are the men who came to you
tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."
Are you going to say I am once again showing hate and that I am gay bashing or
trying to stir up hatred toward gays because I tell the truth and refute you in
public?
How about this from what you call the New Testament?
Jude 1
1 Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James, To those who have been
called, who are loved by God the Father and kept by [1] Jesus Christ:
2 Mercy, peace and love be yours in abundance.
3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we
share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once
for all entrusted to the saints.
4 For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly
slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into
a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered
his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.
6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned
their own home--these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for
judgment on the great Day.
7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves
up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who
suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
Want to retract your very mis-informed statement:
>All homosexual acts are "clearly against" are the traditions
>of men to which you cling, without biblical justification.
10 Yet these men speak abusively against whatever they do not understand; and
what things they do understand by instinct, like unreasoning animals--these are
the very things that destroy them.
11 Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit
into Balaam's error; they have been destroyed in Korah's rebellion.
12 These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the
slightest qualm--shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without
rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted--twice
dead.
13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for
whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.
14 Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: "See, the Lord is
coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones
15 to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts
they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners
have spoken against him."
16 These men are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires;
they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage.
17 But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ
foretold.
18 They said to you, "In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow
their own ungodly desires."
19 These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do
not have the Spirit.
Different renditions of Genesis 19:5
Genesis 19:5 :: New American Standard Bible (NASB)
and they called to Lot and said to him, ""<*1> Where are the men who came to you
tonight? Bring them out to us that we may [1] have relations with them.''
I.e. have intercourse
Genesis 19:5 :: New King James Version (NKJV)
And they called to Lot and said to him, "Where are the men who came to you
tonight? Bring them out to us that we may know them carnally."
Need I say more?
Royce says there is no biblical justification against homosexuality and he says
Pharisees are heroes in another post. Hmmmh makes you wonder!
"a number of heros of the New Testament besides Paul were Pharisees.."
-Message-ID: <3AD66574...@earthlink.net>
-From: Royce Buehler <fig...@earthlink.net>
-Reply-To: fig...@earthlink.net
-Subject: Re: I love children.
-Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 02:31:07 GMT
<END>
Need I say more?
Doc Tavish
--
"For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which none of your adversaries
will be able to withstand or contradict." Son of Man {Luke 21:15 RSV}
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Hash: SHA1
Ernst Wilhelm von Tavische <EWvonT...@TAVISCHE-GMBH.NET> wrote in
message news:<s82mevsbt0dfrqus3...@4ax.com>...
> On Sat, 14 Jun 2003 04:50:26 GMT,
<tj9lev4b0e43kj57c...@4ax.com> A
> Believer <pil...@executivemail.co.za> wrote:
>
> >The Bible says nothing about a homosexual anywhere.
> You show you are ignorant of the Bible then! The Bible may not use
the trerm
> "homosexual" but there is no doubt it condemns same sex sexual
acts!
The Bible does not use the terms 'homosexual' or 'homosexuality'
because such terms did not exist in the language of the time,
according to the information I have.
However, there were words in the language used to describe the
dominant and submissive partners in a homosexual relationship, and
homosexuality was a common practice in Roman society (adult men
having sex with young boys in particular) such that anyone listening
to the words of Paul at that time would have certainly understood
that Paul and others inspired by the Spirit of God to write our
scriptures condemned the practice. This is also supported by the
fact that the teaching of the early church was about coming out of
society and being separated unto the Lord, being above society's
practices in such a way that outsiders could clearly identify who
Christians were by their conduct.
There are some scholars who believe that homosexuality and other
sodomic characteristics of Roman society helped contribute to its
downfall because of the sexually-transmitted diseases that would have
certainly been spawned and easily spread by such activity.
SWB
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