Timing Chain: Tell the truth, someone who really knows.
R. E. Haufler
Hello fellow Saturn owners,
I am wondering about timing chain replacement. When should this be
done. I currently am putting on about 50K miles every year. I really
don't want to be replacing my engine.
Here are my questions:
1. When should the timing chain be replaced (how many miles,
etc.)?
2. How hard is it to do yourself?
3. How much should it cost to have it done?
4. It is a metal chain, isn't it?
5. The sprokets are metal too, aren't they?
reh
1994 SL1, AT
Hosmann95
>1. When should the timing chain be replaced (how many miles,
>etc.)?
As long as you keep your oil changed regularly there is no reason to do this
change.
>2. How hard is it to do yourself?
That's a good question. I don't imagine it's that much tougher than changing a
timing belt, which is a pretty big job in terms of labor time. I looked in the
Saturn labor time guide, and the job (on a DOHC engine) takes 3.6 hours.
>3.How much should it cost to have it done?
Someone help me here, I've never heard of anyone having it done as
"maintenance." However, if the same "time" is used as warranty, figure 3.6
hours times about $60, plus the parts. This depends on where you live, as
labor costs vary.
>4. It is a metal chain, isn't it?
>5. The sprokets are metal too, aren't they?
Yes and Yes.
The most likely failure in the event of a lack of maintenance would be the
timing chain tensioner device, not the chain itself. This is operated by oil
pressure. Furthermore, if this starts to go, you would probably start to hear
some noises from the chain long before the chain would actually fail... unlike
a rubber belt which I've heard can just "snap." If the tensioner fails, the
chain could get loose enough to skip some teeth on the sprockets, I imagine,
and this could cause some damage.
I used to have a 1975 Triumph Spitfire, which also used a timing chain. I
rebuilt the engine after 20 years and while I had to replace the camshaft,
piston rings, valves, etc., the original chain was still in fine condition.
This car's maintenance history was somewhat unknown to me, as I had purchased
it only a year before the engine work was done.
GETSPLAT
The timing chain is very durable, should go the life of the engine or more.
There is no recommended interval for replacement, when it starts making noise
it's too late. To tackle it yourself would be hard, there are some special
tools required ( you can get away w/o them ) and it's time consuming. It takes
a pro 4 to 5 hours w/ shop equipment, and would cost maybe 400 to 500 at the
dealer complete.
The best maintenance is frequent oil changes !
All the parts are metal w/ exception of the guide faces.
Ed/ Sierra Auto Products 1-800-TOY-CARS
Chris Mauritz
> I am wondering about timing chain replacement. When should this be
> done. I currently am putting on about 50K miles every year. I really
> don't want to be replacing my engine.
> Here are my questions:
> 1. When should the timing chain be replaced (how many miles,
> etc.)?
Never, unless it starts to make noise. If you change your oil
regularly, this shouldn't happen for the life of the car.
> 2. How hard is it to do yourself?
Major hassle. I suspect it would take a mechanic who has all
the proper tools handy the better part of a workday to do the
job properly.
> 3. How much should it cost to have it done?
I don't know.
> 4. It is a metal chain, isn't it?
Yes.
> 5. The sprokets are metal too, aren't they?
I think so. Though some manufacturers use (believe it or not)
plastic sprockets.
If you change your oil regularly, and follow the recommended
maintenance schedule, I suspect you'll get 200k+ miles out of
your engine before you'll need to think about any rebuild
issues.
Chris
--
Crack the RSA RC5-64 encryption algorithm. Use your idle cpu
cycles to take part in the fastest computer on the planet.
See: http://www.distributed.net
Join: http://www.execpc.com/~silby/teamamd.html
John Edwards
R. E. Haufler <reha...@web1.comstockinc.com> wrote in article
<3587ecf3...@news.planetc.com>...
> Hello fellow Saturn owners,
>
> I am wondering about timing chain replacement. When should this be
> done. I currently am putting on about 50K miles every year. I really
> don't want to be replacing my engine.
>
> Here are my questions:
>
> 1. When should the timing chain be replaced (how many miles,
> etc.)?
There is no scheduled change interval for the chain. You should change
your oil every 3K miles. This will ensure it will last. If you start to
notice any unusual noises, point them out to your service tech. Scharf
will lie and say that there have been rampant reports of timing chain
problems and that you should replace them at 100K. He is lying. There are
NO reports of rampant timing chain failures. BTW he has never owned a
Saturn.
>
> 2. How hard is it to do yourself?
I suggest you ask a gentleman on this group by the name of SaturnFix. He
will provide you with the correct information. Remember, Steve Scharf is
not a certified mechanic, nor has he ever even touched a Saturn.
>
> 3. How much should it cost to have it done?
Best to ask your dealer. Get a few quotes from various ones in your area.
> 4. It is a metal chain, isn't it?
Yes.
> 5. The sprokets are metal too, aren't they?
Not sure. Ask your dealer or SaturnFix
> reh
> 1994 SL1, AT
>
Safe Motoring!
John
kil...@beasys.com
In article <3587ecf3...@news.planetc.com>,
reha...@web1.comstockinc.com wrote:
>
> Hello fellow Saturn owners,
>
> I am wondering about timing chain replacement. When should this be
> done. I currently am putting on about 50K miles every year. I really
> don't want to be replacing my engine.
>
> Here are my questions:
>
> 1. When should the timing chain be replaced (how many miles,
> etc.)?
>
>
>
>
>
> 1994 SL1, AT
>
>
(Oh, boy -- here we go again!)
The chain is metal (thus the name "chain", as opposed to rubber "belt").
Unlike a belt, there is no recommended maintenance on the timing chain. The
best way to keep your chain in good shape is to change the oil at the
recommended intervals.
Steve Scharf will say "experts recommend changing the timing chain after
100,000 miles." By "experts", he is referring to exactly one person in the
know universe who has stated that personal opinion.
I don't know how much it costs to replace, as I haven't needed one. I don't
think Steve has changed his either -- you'll have to ask him how many miles he
has on his Saturn.
By the way, how many miles have you racked up?
Bill
'94 Sl1 -- 81,812 trouble-free miles, same chain, no oil-burning
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Prepr8tn H
>I am wondering about timing chain replacement. When should this be<BR>
>done. I currently am putting on about 50K miles every year. I really<BR>
>don't want to be replacing my engine.
Change your oil at 3k and chances are you will not see a replacement ever..
>Here are my questions:
>1. When should the timing chain be replaced (how many miles, etc. Change
your oil at or before 3k, bad oil is the killer here!
>2. How hard is it to do yourself? DOHC engines are usually the most
difficult, you will need some experience in this area and under most
circumstances is best left to the professionals
>3. How much should it cost to have it done?<BR>
>4. It is a metal chain, isn't it?<BR>
Yes it is metal
>5. The sprokets are metal too, aren't they?
Under most circumstances they are, sometimes nylon sprockets are used to
reduce noise but not on a Saturn I believe...
R. E. Haufler
>By the way, how many miles have you racked up?
I purchased my car used in December 1996 for $8400. It had 24K on it
then. It now has 81K. I have replaced only the battery and the
tires. I may need a brake job soon. The car seems to be a good one.
It does use some oil though, oil consumption varys between 1 qt/ 1000
miles to 1 qt every 2000 miles. I change the oil every 3000 miles,
which is about every other week. If I go a steady 65 MPH, I get
nearly 45 MPG.
reh
'94 SL1 AT, 81K miles, Oak Ridge, TN
Xiao-Long Li
In article <3587ecf3...@news.planetc.com>,
R. E. Haufler <reha...@web1.comstockinc.com> wrote:
>1. When should the timing chain be replaced (how many miles,
Forever or when it starting to make noise, which ever comes first. For
most normal driving and 3k oil-change, it should last forever or until you
want a new car...:)
>2. How hard is it to do yourself?
Don't know. Have not done it yet.. No need to. :)
>3. How much should it cost to have it done?
It ranges around $300 to $500 depending on the location and shop.
>4. It is a metal chain, isn't it?
>5. The sprokets are metal too, aren't they?
Yes and Yes. They are all metal, no plastic, no rubber and no plastic on
metal thing.
--
Xiao-Long Li (Shaw) :)
Undergraduate EE, School of Electrical Engineering & Computer Engineering
E-mail: gt6...@prism.gatech.edu Mailbox: 336374, Georgia Tech Station
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332-1675
Hosmann95
>>4. It is a metal chain, isn't it?
>>5. The sprokets are metal too, aren't they?
Most of these parts should be visible on the cut-away car at your local
retailer. The cars I've seen have had th left side of the valve cover cut off
to show the chain and sprockets. They are metal.
sch...@grin.net
R. E. Haufler wrote in message <3587ecf3...@news.planetc.com>...
>1. When should the timing chain be replaced (how many miles,
>etc.)?
Somewhere between about 40K miles and infinity miles. You will
here all sorts of figures thrown about. You have the people with
early failures and you have the people who have bought into the
myth that 'a timing chain lasts forever,' or 'a timing chain lasts the
life of the engine,' or the timing chain lasts the life of the car.'
Reality is somewhere in-between.
Since you specifically asked for 'the truth from someone who
knows,' then you obviously aren't interested in the myths, you
want knowledgable advice from people like Saturn mechanics.
Experts agree that 100,000 miles is about the life of a Saturn
timing chain (by experts I refer to mechanics, not owners that have
been fed the 'it lasts forever line' by the sales consultant). Sure
you might get more miles, even a lot more, but if you believe, as I
do, in preventive maintenance then don't put it off much over 100K.
Don't be misled by people that will claim that the timing chain lasts
the life of the engine or the life of the car--what they say is true,
but because the life of the engine and car ends when the timing chain
breaks, unless you have deep pockets! What they really mean to say is
that the engine and car last the life of the timing chain.
Similarly, you may get glowing reports about how so and so has
300K miles on the original timing chain, but there is probably
just as high a percentage of naive people who have cars with timing
belts that have never changed the belt and not experienced a failure.
You need to decide if you want to live on borrowed time.
>2. How hard is it to do yourself?
Not trivial. Unless you're a mechanic don't try it.
>3. How much should it cost to have it done?
It varies, but in this newsgroup I've seen postings from people
that have had it done and the cost was $450-500 IIRC. Remember
to replace the tensioner mechanism as well.
>4. It is a metal chain, isn't it?
Yes.
>5. The sprokets are metal too, aren't they?
Yes.
Please go check:
http://x8.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=296510186&CONTEXT=898114098.715849762
where you'll find the URLs for posts by owners who have had timing chain
problems. I don't think that you want to become one of them. And while some
didn't do 3K oil changes, some did, so don't fall for the line 'if you do 3K
oil changes it will last forever,' either. Tain't so.
Be aware that there exists a few people on this newsgroup
that would prefer that the timing chain issue not be brought up. It's
a sore subject because some were led to believe that the timing
chain was some sort of huge advantage over a belt because it would last
forever rather than requiring periodic replacement as a timing belt
does. I suspect there are already many responses to your post that claim
that the chain NEVER has to be replaced, believe them at your own
risk. A while back, one individual proclaimed that all the timing chain
failures except two never occured because the owner didn't send him their VIN
(I am not making this up, he really expected people that don't know him
to e-mail him their VIN)!
The truth is, most people could get away with not changing their
timing belt or timing chain for 150K-200K miles but it is just really
dumb to risk breakage of the timing chain or belt on an interference
engine.
Some people point out that as the timing chain wears, the noise
increases, so that you have an audible indication of when it needs
to be changed. However it was pointed out by a mechanic that gradual
increases in the noise level are unlikely to be noticed by a regular
driver of the vehicle. You could always ask your dealer to check the
chain and tell you if he thinks it needs to be replaced, but the problem
is that a wise dealer would be very cautious about telling you that it is
fine; they don't want you coming back a month later with a broken chain
and you blaming them for not catching it.
Just decide whether you want to believe expert mechanics who really
know or the people that want you to believe that it lasts forever.
Steve
--------------------------------------------------------------
If you can not answer a man's argument, all it not lost;
you can still call him vile names. Elbert Hubbard
--------------------------------------------------------------
Al Clapsaddle
R. E. Haufler wrote:
>
> Hello fellow Saturn owners,
>
>
>
> 1. When should the timing chain be replaced (how many miles,
> etc.)?
>
>
>
>
>
> 1994 SL1, AT
REH,
When the timing chain problems were ementioned, I started do a
mini-research project (about 1 year or so ago) and found that less than
3 dozen had failed because of a defect. The worse case was one failing
at 4 miles.
Originally the oil bore was smaller and Saturn was seeing more than what
they considered normal timing chain failures casue by IMPROPER
maintenance. They enhanced this opening to reduce the occurances and
this has been mentioned quite a few times that Saturn fixed a design
defect. The fact still remained that properly maintained Saturns did not
have this porblem.
Look at it this way, if the timing chains were such a problem, NHTSA
would have been involved by now; Intellichoice would NOT continue to
rate the dependability so high; recent J.D. Powers dependability reports
would NOT have shown an improvement that places them right below the
"dependable" Civic, Carpoint would not show the good marks for engine
problems, etc.
I suggest talking to REAL customers at Saturn Service Department. You
could probably have a jelly donut and coffee while you are doing this. I
found this form of data collecting very useful when I use to travel. I
have visited some Saturn Retailers from different parts of the country.
If you have a concern about your car, take it to the Retailer and see
what it costs to check it out. Even if it is $100.00, you will have
piece of mind.
Good Luck
Al
Chris Mauritz
>>1. When should the timing chain be replaced (how many miles,
>>etc.)?
> Somewhere between about 40K miles and infinity miles. You will
> here all sorts of figures thrown about. You have the people with
> early failures and you have the people who have bought into the
> myth that 'a timing chain lasts forever,' or 'a timing chain lasts the
> life of the engine,' or the timing chain lasts the life of the car.'
> Reality is somewhere in-between.
Steve, don't you get tired of posting the same false information
over and over? The above it an outright fabrication on Steve's
part. The chain is designed to last the life of the engine. Much
like main bearings, you only would replace it if it showed signs
of premature wear or if it broke. That is the fact of the matter.
Steve's reality is somewhere between is hiney cheeks, as that's
where he tends to park his head.
C
H.B. Elkins
reha...@web1.comstockinc.com (R. E. Haufler) wrote:
>Hello fellow Saturn owners,
>
>I am wondering about timing chain replacement. When should this be
>done. I currently am putting on about 50K miles every year. I really
>don't want to be replacing my engine.
>
>Here are my questions:
>
>1. When should the timing chain be replaced (how many miles,
>etc.)?
The timing chain is not a "wear item" and there is no schedule for
periodic replacement.
>4. It is a metal chain, isn't it?
Yes, it is.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
H.B. Elkins -- Winchester, KY
"You must have the courage to believe the truth!" -- Rush H. Limbaugh III
Kentucky Wildcats Basketball & #3 Dale Earnhardt -- A Championship Combination
mailto:hbel...@mis.net <or> mailto:HB...@aol.com
(Say "nyet" to spam! Please note: there is a spam-buster in my E-mail address.
To reply by E-mail,use one of the addresses above)
http://www.users.mis.net/~hbelkins (last updated 6/10/98)
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
Typical Invective
sch...@grin.net wrote:
>
> Please go check:
>
> http://x8.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=296510186&CONTEXT=898114098.715849762
>
> where you'll find the URLs for posts by owners who have had timing chain
> problems. I don't think that you want to become one of them. And while some
> didn't do 3K oil changes, some did, so don't fall for the line 'if you do 3K
> oil changes it will last forever,' either. Tain't so.
Out of curiosity, I went to check out some of these posts. There is
SOOOO much I could say about them. But, I won't, because (considering
that this is an older post by yourself) you've probably heard it all
already...
This was my personal favorite "post by owners who have had timing chain
problems":
http://x6.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=4043141&server=db96q4
> Subject: Chain Tensioner Defect(?)....
> From: macg...@aol.com (Mac Guitar)
> Date: 1996/10/06
> Message-ID: <538htp$r...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
> Sender: ro...@newsbf02.news.aol.com
> Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
> Reply-To: macg...@aol.com (Mac Guitar)
> Newsgroups: rec.autos.makers.saturn
>
> OK, I've been hearing a lot about this problem..
>
> Supposedly the Timing Chain tensioner seems to break on a good number of
> Saturns....
>
> Now, is this just one of those things that happened to a few people, but
> sounds like a big problem, OR is this a legit problem???
>
> If it's legit has Saturn addressed and FIXED it on new 97 cars, or is this
> still a problem waiting to happen?? (Remember the GM fiasco back in the
> 70's or 80's with a Cadilliac's Aluminum Heads?? They would get too hot
> and WARP)
>
> Anyway, whats the FINAL word on the Timing Chain Tensioner problem(if it
> even is one)
>
> Michael
Remember, this was one of the "posts by owners who have had timing chain
problems."
<sarcasm>
Usenet posts are, unquestionably, the BEST source of undeniable facts in
the world. Right? Am I right?
</sarcasm>
--
Jeremy Rowland
http://home.att.net/~psychosia/
mailto:psyc...@worldnet.att.net.spam_me
(take off the ".spam_me" to reply by email)
MST3K fan club member #59289 - "I am a number!"
A man said to the universe:
"Sir I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"The fact has not created in me
A sense of obligation."
- Stephen Crane, "War is Kind and Other Lines," XXII
CMcC
So far every one's wrong on this one.
THE TIMING CHAIN LAST AS LONG AS THE TIMING CHAIN NOT THE ENGINE OR THE CAR
BUT THE CHAIN ITSELF!! autoshop 101 you've all failed. :(
CMcC
Hosmann95 wrote in message
<199806180010...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
>>>4. It is a metal chain, isn't it?
>>>5. The sprokets are metal too, aren't they?
>
R. E. Haufler
Gee, Steve,
Thanks for the good advice. What kind of Saturn do you have?
reh
On Thu, 18 Jun 1998 08:50:55 GMT, sch...@grin.net wrote:
>R. E. Haufler wrote in message <3587ecf3...@news.planetc.com>...
>
>>1. When should the timing chain be replaced (how many miles,
>>etc.)?
>
>Somewhere between about 40K miles and infinity miles. You will
>here all sorts of figures thrown about. You have the people with
>early failures and you have the people who have bought into the
>myth that 'a timing chain lasts forever,' or 'a timing chain lasts the
>life of the engine,' or the timing chain lasts the life of the car.'
>Reality is somewhere in-between.
>
>Since you specifically asked for 'the truth from someone who
>knows,' then you obviously aren't interested in the myths, you
>want knowledgable advice from people like Saturn mechanics.
>
>Experts agree that 100,000 miles is about the life of a Saturn
>timing chain (by experts I refer to mechanics, not owners that have
>been fed the 'it lasts forever line' by the sales consultant). Sure
>you might get more miles, even a lot more, but if you believe, as I
>do, in preventive maintenance then don't put it off much over 100K.
>
>Don't be misled by people that will claim that the timing chain lasts
>the life of the engine or the life of the car--what they say is true,
>but because the life of the engine and car ends when the timing chain
>breaks, unless you have deep pockets! What they really mean to say is
>that the engine and car last the life of the timing chain.
>
>Similarly, you may get glowing reports about how so and so has
>300K miles on the original timing chain, but there is probably
>just as high a percentage of naive people who have cars with timing
>belts that have never changed the belt and not experienced a failure.
>You need to decide if you want to live on borrowed time.
>
>>2. How hard is it to do yourself?
>
>Not trivial. Unless you're a mechanic don't try it.
>
>>3. How much should it cost to have it done?
>
>It varies, but in this newsgroup I've seen postings from people
>that have had it done and the cost was $450-500 IIRC. Remember
>to replace the tensioner mechanism as well.
>
>>4. It is a metal chain, isn't it?
>
>Yes.
>
>>5. The sprokets are metal too, aren't they?
>
>Yes.
>
>Please go check:
>
>http://x8.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=296510186&CONTEXT=898114098.715849762
>
>where you'll find the URLs for posts by owners who have had timing chain
>problems. I don't think that you want to become one of them. And while some
>didn't do 3K oil changes, some did, so don't fall for the line 'if you do 3K
>oil changes it will last forever,' either. Tain't so.
>
Xiao-Long Li
In article <6makdf$f1v$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, <sch...@grin.net> wrote:
>R. E. Haufler wrote in message <3587ecf3...@news.planetc.com>...
>>1. When should the timing chain be replaced (how many miles,
>>etc.)?
>Somewhere between about 40K miles and infinity miles. You will
>here all sorts of figures thrown about. You have the people with
>early failures and you have the people who have bought into the
>myth that 'a timing chain lasts forever,' or 'a timing chain lasts the
>life of the engine,' or the timing chain lasts the life of the car.'
>Reality is somewhere in-between.
What a bunch of Bull****! Are you saying that a well maintained timing
chain is expected to fail between 40K to infinity? That is crap. A well
maintained timing chain should last forever, if it is well maintainced.
By forever, it usually implies the life of the car or somewhere around
200K.
>Since you specifically asked for 'the truth from someone who
>knows,' then you obviously aren't interested in the myths, you
>want knowledgable advice from people like Saturn mechanics.
Truth from someone who don't own a Saturn and based all his so-called
Facts on this newsgroup? What a good Lier you are?
>Experts agree that 100,000 miles is about the life of a Saturn
>timing chain (by experts I refer to mechanics, not owners that have
>been fed the 'it lasts forever line' by the sales consultant). Sure
>you might get more miles, even a lot more, but if you believe, as I
>do, in preventive maintenance then don't put it off much over 100K.
Which expert? Would you care list his/her qualification and ways to
verify it?
>Similarly, you may get glowing reports about how so and so has
>300K miles on the original timing chain, but there is probably
>just as high a percentage of naive people who have cars with timing
>belts that have never changed the belt and not experienced a failure.
>You need to decide if you want to live on borrowed time.
Anybody with a well maintained engine and common sense should trust more
on metal Timing Chain instead of plastic or rubber timing belt.
>http://x8.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=296510186&CONTEXT=898114098.715849762
>where you'll find the URLs for posts by owners who have had timing chain
>problems. I don't think that you want to become one of them. And while some
>didn't do 3K oil changes, some did, so don't fall for the line 'if you do 3K
>oil changes it will last forever,' either. Tain't so.
Is that a fact or some newsgroup postings that can be generate by people
like you who manufacture the lies and don't even own a Saturn?
>Be aware that there exists a few people on this newsgroup
>that would prefer that the timing chain issue not be brought up. It's
>a sore subject because some were led to believe that the timing
>chain was some sort of huge advantage over a belt because it would last
>forever rather than requiring periodic replacement as a timing belt
>does. I suspect there are already many responses to your post that claim
>that the chain NEVER has to be replaced, believe them at your own
>risk. A while back, one individual proclaimed that all the timing chain
>failures except two never occured because the owner didn't send him their VIN
>(I am not making this up, he really expected people that don't know him
>to e-mail him their VIN)!
Am I one of them? That is right. I am a member of the "dummy Corp" who
actually owns a Saturn and Love it. We are those who actually speak of
the facts and speaking from our OWN personal experiences. What about you?
Care to tell us your Saturn's color?
>The truth is, most people could get away with not changing their
>timing belt or timing chain for 150K-200K miles but it is just really
>dumb to risk breakage of the timing chain or belt on an interference
>engine.
What would there be a risk if the timing chain is well maintained?
>Some people point out that as the timing chain wears, the noise
>increases, so that you have an audible indication of when it needs
>to be changed. However it was pointed out by a mechanic that gradual
>increases in the noise level are unlikely to be noticed by a regular
>driver of the vehicle. You could always ask your dealer to check the
By the time that timing chain makes a noise, it is usually very apparant.
Maybe idiots like you won't ever able to tell that something is wrong.
>Just decide whether you want to believe expert mechanics who really
>know or the people that want you to believe that it lasts forever.
Or at least people who own Saturn and speaking from personal experiences
rather than things that he/she hears from the newsgroup.
Kelley (filter THIS) Poag
sch...@grin.net wrote in message <6makdf$f1v$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>R. E. Haufler wrote in message <3587ecf3...@news.planetc.com>...
>
>>1. When should the timing chain be replaced (how many miles,
>>etc.)?
>
>Somewhere between about 40K miles and infinity miles. You will
>here all sorts of figures thrown about. You have the people with
>early failures and you have the people who have bought into the
>myth that 'a timing chain lasts forever,' or 'a timing chain lasts the
>life of the engine,' or the timing chain lasts the life of the car.'
>Reality is somewhere in-between.
If you believe this guy, then I have some ocean front property to sell you
in Arizona.
Steve claims to be the all knowing provider of truth on this (and other)
news groups but the fact is he is a PROVEN liar. He has been accused of
using aliases to support his own unsubstantiated claims regarding Saturns
and their reliability and he as denied doing such. In particular, he has
been accused of being Karen Chiu. Karen made a number of inflammatory
remarks about Saturn including the claim to have hard data as to the number
of oil burning and or timing chain problems her in-law's auto shop has come
across. When confronted with this and asked to provide the data, she
disappeared from this NG and hasn't been heard from since, or has she?
Take a look at this:
++++++++++start+++++++++++
Subject: Folding Bicycle Web Page is Up--Need Photos from UK & Germany
From: Karen Chiu <chiu-...@worldnet.att.net>
Date: 1996/11/03
Message-ID: <327D58...@worldnet.att.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Mime-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups:
de.rec.fahrrad,rec.bicycles.misc,uk.rec.cycling,ba.bicycles,bc.cycling
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01E (Win95; U)
The Folding Bicycle web page has been updated as of November 1.
http://danenet.wicip.org/bcp/folders.html
Of the 75 or so folding bicycles described, I need pictures
of the following:
Daewoo Shuttle, Diamant Fahrradwerke Handybike, & Dawes Metropolis
Please e-mail photos (any graphics format) to sch...@hotmail.com
or snail-mail to Steve Scharf, P.O. Box 467, Cupertino CA, 95015 USA.
+++++++++++end+++++++++++
First of all:
This post is from Karen Chiu
The return E-mail address includes SCHARF
Send photos to STEVE SCHARF
If that is not enough, you can look at:
http://pages.prodigy.net/netwit/scharf.htm
This pretty much covers the whole Scharf matter and goes into yet another
alleged alias. Look it over and judge for yourself.
>
>Since you specifically asked for 'the truth from someone who
>knows,' then you obviously aren't interested in the myths, you
>want knowledgable advice from people like Saturn mechanics.
>
Then why are you telling another one of your fables AESOP?
>Experts agree that 100,000 miles is about the life of a Saturn
>timing chain (by experts I refer to mechanics, not owners that have
>been fed the 'it lasts forever line' by the sales consultant). Sure
>you might get more miles, even a lot more, but if you believe, as I
>do, in preventive maintenance then don't put it off much over 100K.
I think what he means by "expert" is one Saturn mechanic that has expressed
his opinions on the matter of timing chains. Steve used to provide a link
to the original post but I think too many people were picking apart his
stories with it that he stopped providing it.
>
>Don't be misled by people that will claim that the timing chain lasts
>the life of the engine or the life of the car--what they say is true,
>but because the life of the engine and car ends when the timing chain
>breaks, unless you have deep pockets! What they really mean to say is
>that the engine and car last the life of the timing chain.
Likewise, don't be misled by a known liar. In this case, Steve Scharf.
This guy has never owned a Saturn and has only test driven one, ONCE. His
method of collecting data on Saturn is to peruse this NG and take the posts
and claims of others as concrete evidence of Saturn's unreliability. What
he doesn't take into account is the background behind the claims being made.
>
>Similarly, you may get glowing reports about how so and so has
>300K miles on the original timing chain, but there is probably
>just as high a percentage of naive people who have cars with timing
>belts that have never changed the belt and not experienced a failure.
>You need to decide if you want to live on borrowed time.
Timing belts and timing chains are like apples and oranges. There IS a
replacement interval for a belt but none for a chain. Just maintain your
car properly and it should last a good long time.
>
>>2. How hard is it to do yourself?
>
>Not trivial. Unless you're a mechanic don't try it.
Take it from a guy that suggested you carry a spare alternator in the trunk
in case of a failure. I wouldn't take advise from this guy about refueling
much less timing chains.
>
>>3. How much should it cost to have it done?
>
>It varies, but in this newsgroup I've seen postings from people
>that have had it done and the cost was $450-500 IIRC. Remember
>to replace the tensioner mechanism as well.
Yeah, DUH. Dont forget to replace the piston rings and use a new head
gasket when you rebuild an engine too. (idiot...)
>
>>4. It is a metal chain, isn't it?
>
>Yes.
>
>>5. The sprokets are metal too, aren't they?
>
>Yes.
Interesting to note that Steve didn't chime in on this topic sooner. Maybe
he DIDN'T know what the chain and sprockets were made of. He had to wait to
see what others said about it before he could comment.
>
>Please go check:
>
>http://x8.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=296510186&CONTEXT=898114098.715849762
>
>where you'll find the URLs for posts by owners who have had timing chain
>problems. I don't think that you want to become one of them. And while some
>didn't do 3K oil changes, some did, so don't fall for the line 'if you do
3K
>oil changes it will last forever,' either. Tain't so.
WOW a whole 23 posts! Geeze I was WRONG. There IS an epidemic of timing
chain failures, NOT.
23 posts out of how many possible? What are you trying to pull here Steve?
>
>Be aware that there exists a few people on this newsgroup
>that would prefer that the timing chain issue not be brought up. It's
>a sore subject because some were led to believe that the timing
>chain was some sort of huge advantage over a belt because it would last
>forever rather than requiring periodic replacement as a timing belt
>does. I suspect there are already many responses to your post that claim
>that the chain NEVER has to be replaced, believe them at your own
>risk. A while back, one individual proclaimed that all the timing chain
>failures except two never occurred because the owner didn't send him their
VIN
>(I am not making this up, he really expected people that don't know him
>to e-mail him their VIN)!
Well it was ONE way to either prove or disprove the validity of a claim.
Anyone can make up stories. Right Steve?
>
>The truth is, most people could get away with not changing their
>timing belt or timing chain for 150K-200K miles but it is just really
>dumb to risk breakage of the timing chain or belt on an interference
>engine.
>
If you go 150000 miles on a belt you're asking for trouble. If you go that
long on a chain, welcome to the club.
>Some people point out that as the timing chain wears, the noise
>increases, so that you have an audible indication of when it needs
>to be changed. However it was pointed out by a mechanic that gradual
>increases in the noise level are unlikely to be noticed by a regular
>driver of the vehicle. You could always ask your dealer to check the
>chain and tell you if he thinks it needs to be replaced, but the problem
>is that a wise dealer would be very cautious about telling you that it is
>fine; they don't want you coming back a month later with a broken chain
>and you blaming them for not catching it.
>
You'll know when the chain is starting to make noise.
>Just decide whether you want to believe expert mechanics who really
>know or the people that want you to believe that it lasts forever.
>
>Steve
Just decide if you want to believe a LIAR or a group of actual Saturn
owners.
--
"As Americans, it is our g-d given right to argue about
issues we know nothing about." - Steven M. Scharf
http://x12.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=110547102&CONTEXT=898008923.1842413594&
hitnum=2
http://pages.prodigy.net/netwit/
remove no_spam from E-mail address
////////////////////////////////////
// Yeah I got your SPAM right here!! //
///////////////////////////////////
Spam Bait!
rhu...@fcc.gov
jqu...@fcc.gov
sn...@fcc.gov
rch...@fcc.gov
Typical Invective
Kelley (filter THIS) Poag wrote:
> --
> "As Americans, it is our g-d given right to argue about
> issues we know nothing about." - Steven M. Scharf
>
> http://x12.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=110547102&CONTEXT=898008923.1842413594&hitnum=2
>
> http://pages.prodigy.net/netwit/
>
> remove no_spam from E-mail address
>
> ////////////////////////////////////
> // Yeah I got your SPAM right here!! //
> ///////////////////////////////////
>
> Spam Bait!
>
> rhu...@fcc.gov
> jqu...@fcc.gov
> sn...@fcc.gov
> rch...@fcc.gov
Yours is my favorite Scharfism to date...
R. E. Haufler
Hello fellow Saturn owners,
I know of this Sharf guy, I knew he would post to this, that is why I
asked for "Tell the truth, someone who really knows". He ignored
that, I guess.
My Saturn gets a hell of a lot of miles on it. I want to know how to
anticipate this problem, how big of a problem, etc.
I shamefully admit it, I did go look at a post by SaturnFix, whose
opinion I really respect, that this Sharf guy referenced
(http://x7.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=316329211), and that got me a bit
worried, something about 100K miles:
I am concerned, because I will be seeing 100K miles real soon.
"Basically, the timing chain should last about 100,000 miles
considering you have been changing your oil at least every 5000 miles.
If you have been going longer, the life of the chain goes down the
longer you go between oil changes.If it's over 100,000 miles, have it
checked at the dealer to see if it's making noise. If it is, then
have it replaced. If it's not, then run it until it makes noise.
Timing chains rarely break all of a sudden without making any previous
noise. Problem is, most owners have gotten used to the noise as time
goes on, so they don't notice how noisey their engine is, when the
dealer would be able to point it out to you if the noise is excessive
or not. I wouldn't recommend getting the chain replaced if it's
running ok, and there is no excessive noise. DON'T FIX IT IF IT AIN'T
BROKE!!!!!
SaturnFix"
So the noises and the oil changes are the keys to avoiding this
problem.
I can take care of the oil issue. I am not qualified to diagnose the
noise. I can imagine what I will hear though.
So the chain in metal, This is good.
So the sprokets are probably metal, maybe good, I am sure if they are
metal, they are constructed of heat sintered metal powder.
I hate these "take it to the dealer " recommendations. I know that
the local Saturn dealer here in Knoxville is rife with crooks. My
attorney buddy has sued them several times, and every time I call them
I get really stupid information from either the service or parts
people.
I intend to avoid those guys as I intend to avoid VD.
The sales people there are really nice though. (Interestingly, it has
been misrepresentations made by the sales people that have resulted in
the lawsuits that I am privy to).
Oh well,
reh
Kelley (filter THIS) Poag
>Please go check:
>
>http://x8.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=296510186&CONTEXT=898114098.715849762
>
>where you'll find the URLs for posts by owners who have had timing chain
>problems. I don't think that you want to become one of them. And while some
>didn't do 3K oil changes, some did, so don't fall for the line 'if you do
3K
>oil changes it will last forever,' either. Tain't so.
I thought I'd offer a synopsis of the URL in question.
Here you go:
1. I had a problem with my timing chain and it was fixed. Anyone else?
2. I had a problem with my timing chain and it was replaced. They said it
was due to low oil.
3. What? I have to change my oil every 3000 miles? You're warning me that
my timing BELT is about to fail?
4. First post: I'm worried about the timing chain in my Saturn. Will my
timing chain last the life of the car?
Response: Depends on your definition of lifetime. My 94 SL2 was 35 months
and 31,200 miles.
5. My timing chain needed to be replaced. No I didn't change the oil at the
dealer (actual intervals not specified). Anyone else have a similar
problem?
6. Response to #1: Explanation of the bleeder and tensioner mechanism from a
Saturn Tech.
7. First post: 4 year old Saturn, 24,000 miles needs timing chain
replacement. Do Saturns have a history of such problems?
Respondent: Quotes #1, #6; My SW2 needed its timing chain replaced at
56,000. My service center also tried getting us to have a power steering
pump unnecessarily replaced. I've often wondered about the need for the
earlier repairs.
- Kinda makes you wonder about the necessity of the timing chain don't it?
8.What is the deal with Saturns and timing chains? Is it for real?
No problem stated
9. 92 SL2 (2nd production year) with 100,000km burns 1L every 3Km I also
had the timing chain replaced. Japanese car quality is better.
Then don your sheep garb and buy a Civic.
10. 91 SL2 (1st! production year) with tons of problems and needs timing
chain replaced. The dealership is rotten, service dept. stinks and Saturn
HQ is no help. Write me.
11. What? The chain tensioner is really the culprit. low oil pressure is
the cause? WHICH IS IT?
Reminder: checking for proper oil levels is the owner's responsibility.
12. Norm Dang saying that Saturn should be on the hook because of the bug.
13. Follow up to #7. Not a new citation
14. (My personal favorite) I had brought the car in for elevated oil
consumption but they found a stray bolt in the oil pan. I can't believe it!
Saturn authorized a complete engine replacement under warranty. What an
amazingly cool company!
-Way to support your position Steve. Nothing better than getting someone
that is totally satisfied with their car to back you up.
15.Quite possibly a legitimate claim of a BELT failure. (oooh, Aaah)
16. #7 (Tom Cox) again repeating his trials and tribulations.
17.My poorly maintained (out of tune and 7000-10,000 mile oil changes)
120,000 93 SL2 needs its timing chain replaced. - DUH Like that says
ANYTHING about Saturn. All this post tells me is the owner is a total YUTZ.
18.Original post in #7
19.Hmmm could it be? Another possibly legitimate case of oil burning?
Timing chain not replaced.
20.Another car with questionable maintenance history and a failed timing
chain. DUH twice in 10,000 is on average every 5000mi. That's 2000 over
the usual interval.
If the oil change recommendations found in the Saturn owner's manual are
read carefully, you'll see that NO ONE qualifies to follow the 6000 mile oil
change schedule. THINK PEOPLE!
21. My son beats the shit out of his cars so bad that we're looking at a
third engine in 70,000 miles.
-Sounds like he's the same kind of kid that would go out and try to skid his
bike as long as he could after dad went through the trouble of putting that
new tire on for him. Grow up kid. There is no RESET button in life.
22. I don't maintain my Saturn properly and the timing chain is getting
loud. But I can have it fixed under warranty. My service center is giving
me grief; I guess I should have kept the oil change records.
-DUH!
23.HI, I drive my car like a bat out of hell and what do you know? The
engine blew and I can see a piston rod sticking through the block.
Oh, I just replaced the timing chain 1000 miles ago.
-Like that had anything to do with it.
Change your oil much there speedy?
All I was able to glean from this junk heap of URLs is that if you don't
watch your car and spot problems before ahead of time, they'll bite you in
the ass later on.
Keep your oil change records.
Have the oil changed at the dealer.
Check your oil every now and then. It's part of car ownership; get used to
it.
Don't drive your car like a fighter jet.
Did I miss anything Steve?
It's worth mentioning AGAIN that usenet is NOT a source for reliable and
scientific data (case in point; Steven i'M. not Karen
chiu-...@worldnet.att.net)
If we eliminate the posts where it was clear that the car was not maintained
properly, the repeat posts, and my favorite post. I think what's left is
about 12-15 unsubstantiated reports of oil consumption and subsequent timing
chain REPLACEMENTS. I think there were maybe 2 posts where someone claimed
to be stranded on the road due to a total failure. That's not including Mr.
110 mph Sunday worker.
Steve, if you want to make a case, here's an idea: have some fricking idea
what you're trying to say and read over your data.
--
"As Americans, it is our g-d given right to argue about
issues we know nothing about." - Steven M. Scharf
http://x12.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=110547102&CONTEXT=898008923.1842413594&
hitnum=2
http://pages.prodigy.net/netwit/
remove no_spam from E-mail address
////////////////////////////////////
// Yeah I got your SPAM right here!! //
///////////////////////////////////
Spam Bait!
rhu...@fcc.gov
jqu...@fcc.gov
sn...@fcc.gov
rch...@fcc.gov
<SNIP>
Steven M. Scharf
R. E. Haufler wrote in message <35892c95...@news.planetc.com>...
>Gee, Steve,
>
>Thanks for the good advice. What kind of Saturn do you have?
Sorry. I thought you were interested in the facts
from people who know. Not just me, but actual Saturn
mechanics. That's why I didn't think you would care if
the person that posted the information you wanted was
an owner or not.
Platitudes like, 'it lasts forever,' or 'it lasts
the life of the car,' or 'when it gets noisy then
change it,' are of little use. What the heck is
'forever?' We all know it really isn't forever. Is
it 150K miles? Is it 200K miles? Is it until the car
is sold to someone else or totaled in an accident?
When the engine is destroyed by something else
such as lack of oil or overheating can we then proclaim
that the timing belt really does last the life of the
engine? How much noise is considered too noisy? What
if other noises mask the noise of a bad chain?
As you can see, these people's statements are not only
incorrect, they are totally illogical. Why on earth would
you believe them when they obviously don't know? I trust
Saturnfix more than all of them put together.
I know that a couple of people get angry at me because
I constantly debunk their faulty logic. I wish their were a way
to make them understand that a timing chain does not
last forever. Actually I think they do realize it, I wish they
would just stop telling other people this fable. Not much
hope of that I'm afraid.
Take the advice of the experts and change it at 100K
miles. Or save the money and do nothing. The chances
are that you will get away with it for a while.
Steven M. Scharf
Typical Invective wrote in message
<358934F6...@worldnet.att.net.spam_me>...
>Yours is my favorite Scharfism to date...
>Jeremy Rowland
So you're impressed with people that take other's words completely
out of context because that's the only way they can argue? I did prepare
a nice list of these from Mr. Poag and others. I can e-mail them to you
if this is your level of intellect. I decided not to post them because I
don't believe in this sort of deception.
Steve
r...@no-spam-me-buddy.mindless.com
>
>R. E. Haufler wrote in message <35892c95...@news.planetc.com>...
>>Gee, Steve,
>>
>>Thanks for the good advice. What kind of Saturn do you have?
>
>
>Sorry. I thought you were interested in the facts
>from people who know. Not just me, but actual Saturn
>mechanics. That's why I didn't think you would care if
>the person that posted the information you wanted was
>an owner or not.
No, I wanted information, and I got good information, some from you.
Now I was just curious what kind of Saturn you have.
If you don't have a Saturn, I consider your interest in this newsgroup
in interesting study in abnormal psychology.
reh
Chris Mauritz
Steven M. Scharf <sch...@grin.net> wrote:
> Take the advice of the experts and change it at 100K
> miles. Or save the money and do nothing. The chances
> are that you will get away with it for a while.
By "experts", one can assume more than one person has
given this advice. Steve, who are you quoting? I'm
only aware of one person saying the above. There
are many qualified mechanics who read the group and
the rest of us seem to disagree with that *one*
poster.
Are you fibbing again, Steve? Say it ain't so....
C
Chris Mauritz
Steven M. Scharf <sch...@grin.net> wrote:
>>Jeremy Rowland
Heh. Steve just made my day. This post had me rolling on the floor
laughing. Of course, Steve knows a lot about deception. He's made
a habit out of posting articles using multiple fictitious accounts.
See Kelly Poag's netwit page for references.
Typical Invective
Steven M. Scharf wrote:
>
> Typical Invective wrote in message
> <358934F6...@worldnet.att.net.spam_me>...
>
> >Yours is my favorite Scharfism to date...
>
> >Jeremy Rowland
>
> So you're impressed with people that take other's words completely
> out of context because that's the only way they can argue? I did prepare
> a nice list of these from Mr. Poag and others. I can e-mail them to you
> if this is your level of intellect. I decided not to post them because I
> don't believe in this sort of deception.
>
I just find it very interesting that you provide such great quotable
phrases. I did, in fact, read the original quote in question and did not
seem, to me, to have very much different meaning whether it was "out of
context" or not. Mr. Poag didn't have to try to hard on that one...No
offense, just stating the bleeding obvious...
--
Jeremy Rowland, whose I.Q. is a solid 140
Kelley (filter THIS) Poag
Steven M. Scharf wrote in message <6mdspj$j...@netaxs.com>...
>
>Typical Invective wrote in message
><358934F6...@worldnet.att.net.spam_me>...
>
>>Yours is my favorite Scharfism to date...
>
>>Jeremy Rowland
>
>
>So you're impressed with people that take other's words completely
>out of context because that's the only way they can argue? I did prepare
>a nice list of these from Mr. Poag and others. I can e-mail them to you
>if this is your level of intellect.
Do I detect a slant towards the insulting Steve? 'if this is your level of
intellect.'
I decided not to post them because I
>don't believe in this sort of deception.
>
So, instead you offer to resort to that kind of deception in E-mail. Now
THERE'S logic.
Apparently, you are oblivious to the irony in your quote: "As Americans, it
is our g-d given right to argue about
issues we know nothing about." You engage in arguments here all the time
and it is TOTALLY obvious that you know NOTHING about the subjects which you
are talking about. For example; look at the list of URL's that supposedly
uphold your claim that Saturn's are prone to timing chain failures. The
majority of the "claims" were from owners that stated themselves that their
car was not maintained according to the 3000 mile oil change schedule or
their cars were otherwise clearly abused. Other posts were duplicates or
follow ups. One person in particular, after bringing his car in to the
service department for elevated oil consumption, PRAISED Saturn for going so
far as to authorize a new engine under warranty. It seems as though service
techs found an orphan bolt in the oil pan. That's it! The Saturn techs
didn't have to mention it at all. But they DID and he got a NEW engine out
of it! What other car company can you think of would go to that extent?
In or out of context, I don't think it really matters. Your quote is
priceless because it fits your activities here to a "T".
By the way, who are you this month? Karen Chiu, Steve Scharf, or Philip
McKinney?
Oh, can I request a copy of the quotes YOU compiled? I'd love to see them.
Are you going to put your own web page up in your defense? Good luck.
You've already lost.
>Steve
>
>
>
--
"As Americans, it is our g-d given right to argue about
issues we know nothing about." - Steven M. Scharf
I included this link so others could see the context from which the quote
was taken. You were being facetious but that doesn't diminish the quality
one bit.
da...@my-dejanews.com
gets...@aol.com (GETSPLAT) wrote:
> The timing chain is very durable, should go the life of the engine or more...
Reh
There you go. Right from the mouth of someone who should know, an ex-Saturn
tech.
Ed Out of interest and in response to Al's comment, how much should it cost
if one were to ask to have this checked out? Norm
Darren
Steven M. Scharf (sch...@grin.net) wrote:
> Sorry. I thought you were interested in the facts
> from people who know. Not just me, but actual Saturn
> mechanics. That's why I didn't think you would care if
> the person that posted the information you wanted was
> an owner or not.
Steve has a point. Please see your local Saturn dealer in person and talk
to the service manager or some of the experienced mechanics. It's much
more reliable than taking the word of someone on a newsgroup, like me.
You don't have to be an owner to have an opinion, but you do have to be an
owner to have an opinion based on experience. Otherwise, it would be nice
to have some real data and references, not just saved newsgroup postings
from anonymous persons with unknown motives (good or bad).
> Platitudes like, 'it lasts forever,' or 'it lasts
> the life of the car,' or 'when it gets noisy then
> change it,' are of little use. What the heck is
> 'forever?' We all know it really isn't forever. Is
> it 150K miles? Is it 200K miles? Is it until the car
> is sold to someone else or totaled in an accident?
Is this boiling down to semantics? Many components on a car are assumed
to not be items of regular maintenance. "Forever" or "100K" or "200K" are
just guesses because the item does not have a scheduled replacement
interval. Unless there is a recall, class-action lawsuit or a lot of bad
press, I assume that means at least until other major components without
regular replacement intervals start to fail. Sure it will vary car to car
and make to make, but I'd expect most engines and transmissions to go 150K
without an overhaul. Maybe you can find a scientific survey of repair
shops and get an estimate for us for Saturn engines, engines in general,
or timing chains in specific.
> When the engine is destroyed by something else
> such as lack of oil or overheating can we then proclaim
> that the timing belt really does last the life of the
> engine? How much noise is considered too noisy? What
> if other noises mask the noise of a bad chain?
Every product usually exhibits a statistical MTBF. Many failures happen
within the very early life time (days/weeks). Then the rate is very low
until the late life failures become very high. If the engine is destroyed
around that time, then yes, you could say the chain lasted the life of the
engine. Noise is subjective, as you indicate. I think I'd know when
something sounded unusual. You are correct, though, that it is not a
guarantee. Hard to find those on cars over 100K.
> As you can see, these people's statements are not only
> incorrect, they are totally illogical. Why on earth would
> you believe them when they obviously don't know? I trust
> Saturnfix more than all of them put together.
I don't know or mean to insult Saturnfix. He hasn't posted to any of
these recent threads. Maybe he can clarify his beliefs and list his
qualifications if he hasn't already. Qualified mechanics are a great
source of information, but even better would be input from a bonafide
powertrain engineer. These people are the ones who know the MTBF of every
component and the reliability curves for any given part. Unless you have
hard data of failures, the onus of genuine proof is still on you. It
would be nice to have a reference to a respectable publication (online or
print) regarding timing chain life to support your claims. Otherwise it's
speculation and I'd much rather believe that Saturn has good reason not
to publish a change interval. That's more believable to me than someone
on a newsgroup who has no real supporting proof of claims and possibly an
agenda to boot.
> I know that a couple of people get angry at me because
> I constantly debunk their faulty logic. I wish their were a way
> to make them understand that a timing chain does not
> last forever. Actually I think they do realize it, I wish they
> would just stop telling other people this fable. Not much
> hope of that I'm afraid.
I find it hard to believe anyone is angry over an internet debate.
Everyone shares an opinion. Minds on the internet aren't closed. Most of
us who aren't gearheads are just waiting for hard evidence, not just
anecdotal newsgroup posts from anonymous persons. I will agree that a
timing chain doesn't last forever. Until it is proven to me otherwise, I
will also believe that it lasts much longer than a belt, and probably the
life I expect of any modern auto engine (150K+). Mine could fail at 90K,
but unless it can be shown to me that the mean is much lower than 150K, I
will be content to appear naive.
> Take the advice of the experts and change it at 100K
> miles. Or save the money and do nothing. The chances
> are that you will get away with it for a while.
Which experts? If your definition of an expert is a Saturn mechanic, then
yes, I would strongly encourage anyone to go to their local Saturn dealer
and ask the service manager for their opinions. I, for one, have seen
nothing here that is making me worried, and I only have 11K to go to
100,000 on my '91 SL2. When you have some real data, please post it.
Then maybe I'll have a less leisurely attitute toward my decision on when
to buy a new car, if at all. I have nothing against preventive
maintenance of a chain at 100K, but for me it is a waste of money compared
to the risk involved, until I am convinced otherwise.
> Steve
--
Regards,
Darren
darrenq "at" mc "dot" net
Jay Millikan
Once and for all, Steve.....
Get off your moral high horse and concede that you made a mistake. You say you don't start trouble, but you do. You say that you're here to help, but you don't. All you do is throw around 25 cent words that no one would even want to use. You baffle as many people as you can with your twisted bull-shit. Enough. Why do you stick around here if we all lie? Hmmmm? Answer me for once you coward!
sch...@grin.net wrote:
R. E. Haufler wrote in message <3587ecf3...@news.planetc.com>...
>1. When should the timing chain be replaced (how many miles,
>etc.)?
Somewhere between about 40K miles and infinity miles. You will
here all sorts of figures thrown about. You have the people with
early failures and you have the people who have bought into the
myth that 'a timing chain lasts forever,' or 'a timing chain lasts
life of the engine,' or the timing chain lasts the life of the car.'
Reality is somewhere in-between.
Since you specifically asked for 'the truth from someone who
knows,' then you obviously aren't interested in the myths, you
want knowledgable advice from people like Saturn mechanics.
Experts agree that 100,000 miles is about the life of a Saturn
timing chain (by experts I refer to mechanics, not owners that have
been fed the 'it lasts forever line' by the sales consultant). Sure
you might get more miles, even a lot more, but if you believe, as I
do, in preventive maintenance then don't put it off much over 100K.
Don't be misled by people that will claim that the timing chain lasts
the life of the engine or the life of the car--what they say is true,
but because the life of the engine and car ends when the timing chain
breaks, unless you have deep pockets! What they really mean to say
that the engine and car last the life of the timing chain.
Similarly, you may get glowing reports about how so and so has
300K miles on the original timing chain, but there is probably
just as high a percentage of naive people who have cars with timing
belts that have never changed the belt and not experienced a failure.
You need to decide if you want to live on borrowed time.
>2. How hard is it to do yourself?
Not trivial. Unless you're a mechanic don't try it.
>3. How much should it cost to have it done?
It varies, but in this newsgroup I've seen postings from people
that have had it done and the cost was $450-500 IIRC. Remember
to replace the tensioner mechanism as well.
>4. It is a metal chain, isn't it?
Yes.
>5. The sprokets are metal too, aren't they?
Yes.
Please go check:
http://x8.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=296510186&CONTEXT=898114098.715849762
where you'll find the URLs for posts by owners who have had timing chain
problems. I don't think that you want to become one of them. And while some
didn't do 3K oil changes, some did, so don't fall for the line 'if you do 3K
oil changes it will last forever,' either. Tain't so.
Be aware that there exists a few people on this newsgroup
that would prefer that the timing chain issue not be brought up. It's
a sore subject because some were led to believe that the timing
chain was some sort of huge advantage over a belt because it would last
forever rather than requiring periodic replacement as a timing belt
does. I suspect there are already many responses to your post that claim
that the chain NEVER has to be replaced, believe them at your own
risk. A while back, one individual proclaimed that all the timing chain
failures except two never occured because the owner didn't send him their VIN
(I am not making this up, he really expected people that don't know
to e-mail him their VIN)!
The truth is, most people could get away with not changing their
timing belt or timing chain for 150K-200K miles but it is just really
dumb to risk breakage of the timing chain or belt on an interference
engine.
Some people point out that as the timing chain wears, the noise
increases, so that you have an audible indication of when it needs
to be changed. However it was pointed out by a mechanic that gradual
increases in the noise level are unlikely to be noticed by a regular
driver of the vehicle. You could always ask your dealer to check the
chain and tell you if he thinks it needs to be replaced, but the problem
is that a wise dealer would be very cautious about telling you that it is
fine; they don't want you coming back a month later with a broken chain
and you blaming them for not catching it.
Just decide whether you want to believe expert mechanics who really
know or the people that want you to believe that it lasts forever.
Steve
--------------------------------------------------------------
If you can not answer a man's argument, all it not lost;
you can still call him vile names. Elbert Hubbard
--------------------------------------------------------------
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
--
ÐÏ à¡± á
RandyB359
http://www.cartalk.com/Columns/CC/CC7024TXT.html
I though the above URL may be of interest to Steve and others. Below are some
Excerps:
Tom: Generally speaking, a timing belt should be changed every 60,000 miles.
And some cars -- notably Hondas and Nissans and some Mazdas -- do experience
catastrophic engine damage when their belts break.
Tom: And as a rule, you don't change a timing chain until it breaks. And it may
never break. Unless you drive like a complete animal, it should last you well
over 100,000 miles. Most of them last 150,000 or more.
Ray: And when a timing chain starts to go, it usually makes a loud "rapping"
noise (by rapping, I mean like metal hitting metal, not like Snoop Doggy Dog).
So you usually have some warning.
I hope the truth helps:)
Kirk Kohnen
You forgot the most important quote from that URL:
Tom: So feel free to relax, Joe. Rest assured, your time is much better spent
worrying about what Alan Greenspan's going to do at the Federal Reserve than
worrying about your timing chain.
--
Success often comes only on the heels of repeated failure.
Consider, for example, the relative obscurity of Preparations A through G...
Norm Dang
Kelly,
I always get a kick out being included in Steve's "list of horrors". I have
always pointed out to Steve that discussion on problems existed in this
newsgroup prior to him (AKA "the beacon of truth") appearing. Thread #12
appeared well before he began posing in this newsgroup as a woman ("Karen
Chiu") in order to save us from the Saturn "lies". It's also proof that
membership in the DC is not limited to those Steve calls the "Saturn
Cheerleaders".
And you'll also find that posting#6 dispels Steve's convoluted theory on
how oil burning and chain failures are related (that oil burning reduces
oil pressure which causes the chain to lose tension and destroy the
engine).
Norm
--
To e-mail me, remove 1a and 1a
norm....@a1hydro.on.ca
Kelley (filter THIS) Poag wrote in article.....
> 6. Response to #1: Explanation of the bleeder and tensioner mechanism
from a
> Saturn Tech......
> 12. Norm Dang saying that Saturn should be on the hook because of the
bug.....
>
Norm Dang
Al,
It's also interesting that Steve doesn't seem to have the same issues with
the Nissan 2.0L and 2.4L engines. I don't see Steve rushing into save
potential owners from timing chain problems in the Nissan newsgroup.
He definitely has an anti-Saturn fixation for some reason.
Norm
--
To e-mail me, remove 1a and 1a
norm....@a1hydro.on.ca
Al Clapsaddle wrote in article
> ...Look at it this way, if the timing chains were such a problem, NHTSA
> would have been involved by now; Intellichoice would NOT continue to
> rate the dependability so high; recent J.D. Powers dependability reports
> would NOT have shown an improvement that places them right below the
> "dependable" Civic, Carpoint would not show the good marks for engine
> problems, etc....
Steven M. Scharf
r...@no-spam-me-buddy.mindless.com wrote in message
<358a9103...@news.planetc.com>...
>No, I wanted information, and I got good information, some from you.
Glad to hear that.
>Now I was just curious what kind of Saturn you have.
As you are well aware, I do not have one, just like some of the other
regular posters on this group.
>If you don't have a Saturn, I consider your interest in this newsgroup
>in interesting study in abnormal psychology.
I consider this whole newsgroup a study in abnormal psychology.
My interest in it is to try to inject some normalcy into it, and
to help people out. This is why I answered your post with facts and
logic rather than with meaningless (and false) platitudes about it
lasting 'forever.'
What would make an interesting study would be to examine why some
people are appreciative when they are made aware of potential problems
and appropriate countermeasures, and why some people are unhappy
to find out about it. It's like being scared of going to the doctor because
they might find something wrong; the problem is still there and getting
worse, running away from it doesn't help.
By the way, you should realize that there are other more prolific
(though much less helpful) posters than myself on this group that
also do not own a Saturn. You can find some of them by reading
posts by regular people who ask them to take their inane arguments
to e-mail to stop cluttering the newsgroup.
If you want an owners forum where only owners post then these are
available, but of course you don't get unbiased assistance from
those who know more than the owners and that don't have blinders on.
Steve
----------------------------------------------------------------
Experiments with laboratory rats have shown that, if one
psychologist in the room laughs at something a rat does, all of
the other psychologists in the room will laugh equally. Nobody
wants to be left holding the joke. Garrison Keillor
----------------------------------------------------------------
Steven M. Scharf
R. E. Haufler wrote in message <35897b4f...@news.planetc.com>...
>Hello fellow Saturn owners,
>
>I know of this Sharf guy, I knew he would post to this, that is why I
>asked for "Tell the truth, someone who really knows". He ignored
>that, I guess.
Not ignored at all. Much to the chagrin of some people, this is
a subject that I do know a lot about. That's why all these people that
get so upset at me for posting the facts don't bother me, they
are in denial.
>I shamefully admit it, I did go look at a post by SaturnFix, whose
>opinion I really respect, that this Sharf guy referenced
>(http://x7.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=316329211), and that got me a bit
>worried, something about 100K miles.
Very good. You have decided to intelligently research the issue rather
than simply buying into the 'it lasts forever' crap.
>So the noises and the oil changes are the keys to avoiding this
>problem.
Perhaps the noise is. Unfortunately some of the people with the
broken chains followed the proper oil change schedule so while proper
oil changes are important, they're no guarantee.
>I hate these "take it to the dealer " recommendations. I know that
>the local Saturn dealer here in Knoxville is rife with crooks. My
>attorney buddy has sued them several times, and every time I call
>them I get really stupid information from either the service or parts
>people.
Yes, those recommendations are annoying. However only a Saturn
dealer is really familiar enough with the whole timing chain issue to
know what is too noisy and what is not noisy enough.
It's a mind game. When you go to the dealer and ask if something
needs replacement then they get it into their head that you think
that there might be a problem. Then they need to cover themselves
by recommending replacement even if it really isn't time yet because
if it breaks the next week, you'll be back with a lawyer.
>The sales people there are really nice though. Interestingly, it has
>been misrepresentations made by the sales people that have resulted
>in the lawsuits that I am privy to).
Whoa! You aren't implying that Saturn sales people (oops, sales
consultants) engage in any misrepresentations, aka lies, are you? You
could be sued for slander!
Steve
----------------------------------------------------------------
The hardest thing to explain is the glaringly evident which
everybody had decided not to see. Ayn Rand
----------------------------------------------------------------
Steven M. Scharf
GETSPLAT wrote in message
<199806171654...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
>The timing chain is very durable, should go the life of the engine or
more.
Now the timing chain is going to keep going even after the engine
has stopped?! How does that work? These ARE incredible engines!
>There is no recommended interval for replacement, when it starts
>making noise it's too late.
I thought when the noise reaches a certain level then it's time to
replace it, it's not yet too late. It always makes noise, this is a
given on cars with chains, it's figuring out when the noise is abnormally
high that's the hard part.
Steve
----------------------------------------------------------------
I do not believe in the collective wisdom of individual
ignorance. Thomas Carlyle
----------------------------------------------------------------
Steven M. Scharf
RandyB359 wrote in message
<199806192142...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
>http://www.cartalk.com/Columns/CC/CC7024TXT.html
>
>
>I though the above URL may be of interest to Steve and others. Below are
some
>Excerps:
>
>Tom: Generally speaking, a timing belt should be changed every 60,000
miles.
>And some cars -- notably Hondas and Nissans and some Mazdas -- do
experience
>catastrophic engine damage when their belts break.
>
>Tom: And as a rule, you don't change a timing chain until it breaks.
I don't think they considered interference engines when they made this
statement. Clearly you would not wait until a Saturn chain breaks to
replace it, as you would experience the same catastrophic damage
that a broken belt would cause.
>And it may
>never break. Unless you drive like a complete animal, it should last you
well
>over 100,000 miles. Most of them last 150,000 or more.
Absolutely. A well designed timing chain system should last well over
100K miles.
>Ray: And when a timing chain starts to go, it usually makes a loud
"rapping"
>noise (by rapping, I mean like metal hitting metal, not like Snoop Doggy
Dog).
>So you usually have some warning.
True, you usually have some warning. Usually.
Now remember, Click and Clack (aka Tom and Ray) also state that 3000 mile
oil changes are unnecessary. Again this indicates that they are not too
familiar
with Saturns.
Steve
----------------------------------------------------------------
It is stupidity rather than courage to refuse to recognize
danger when it is close upon you. Arthur Conan Doyle
----------------------------------------------------------------
RandyB359
Now remember, Click and Clack (aka Tom and Ray) also state that 3000 mile
oil changes are unnecessary. Again this indicates that they are not too
familiar
with Saturns.
Actually they have written many nice things about Saturns.
Perhaps it indicates that you are wrong (sorry I know that is not possible.)
They recomend 5,000 mile changes and Consumer Reports recomends 7,500 mile
changes. It is nice to know someone who knows more than they do:)
Wanda Hill
Steven M. Scharf wrote:
<snip>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> Experiments with laboratory rats have shown that, if one
> psychologist in the room laughs at something a rat does, all of
> the other psychologists in the room will laugh equally. Nobody
> wants to be left holding the joke. Garrison Keillor
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
I'd like you to provide Garrison Keillor's citations of publications
pertaining to such studies--publication names, dates, authors,
operational definitions, hypotheses, experimental designs, demographic
data of the subjects studied, control vs. experimental groups, results,
etc. TIA!
"Beware of people that take excerpts of articles out of context, and
that quote articles that are not relevant to the subject being
discussed." --Steve Scharf, 3/31/98
Wanda
Steven M. Scharf
RandyB359 wrote in message
<199806201937...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
>Perhaps it indicates that you are wrong (sorry I know that is not
possible.)
Sure it is possible. But remember it's the Saturn dealers and many in this
newsgroup
that state that 3000 mile oil changes are very important. Click and Clack
correctly
state that 5000 mile changes are fine for most cars. But they can make
mistakes
too. If they say that you don't replace a chain until it breaks, then
perhaps they
are unaware that some interference engines that use chains, and that the
effect
of it breaking is the same as the effect of a belt breaking.
>They recomend 5,000 mile changes and Consumer Reports recomends 7,500 mile
>changes. It is nice to know someone who knows more than they do:)
So which would you follow? Saturn's recommendation, Click and Clacks
recommendation,
or Consumer Reports recommendation? Personally I'd follow Saturn's
recommendation,
because I know the specific reasons for it. I wouldn't follow Jiffy Lubes
recommendation
because I know the reasons for that as well.
Steve
----------------------------------------------------------------
The trouble with most people is that they think with their hopes
and fears rather than with their minds. Will Durant
----------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Mauritz
Steven M. Scharf <sch...@grin.net> wrote:
> r...@no-spam-me-buddy.mindless.com wrote in message
> <358a9103...@news.planetc.com>...
>>No, I wanted information, and I got good information, some from you.
> Glad to hear that.
>>Now I was just curious what kind of Saturn you have.
> As you are well aware, I do not have one, just like some of the other
> regular posters on this group.
Name one (simple, right?) regular poster who hasn't owned a
Saturn...other than yourself, of course.
>>If you don't have a Saturn, I consider your interest in this newsgroup
>>in interesting study in abnormal psychology.
> I consider this whole newsgroup a study in abnormal psychology.
> My interest in it is to try to inject some normalcy into it, and
> to help people out. This is why I answered your post with facts and
> logic rather than with meaningless (and false) platitudes about it
> lasting 'forever.'
The guy got plenty of good information and you got panned for passing
bogus information (as you should). People might not give you such
a hard time if you hadn't been caught red-handed behaving in such
a blatantly dishonest manner. But hey, all is not lost. You can
try to reform your image. Marion Barry got re-elected as mayor of
Washington DC after going to prison for smoking crack on videotape.
So anything is possible....
shpraci...@exit109.com
I read through alot, but not all, of the messages on this thread and I
have something to say on the subject. I was, untill about 4 months ago,
an A tech at a Saturn dealer for 5 years. I got to tell you, I made
ALOT of money replacing timing chains, and not just on poorly maintained
engines. Saturn timing chains are fragile peices that really don't like
abuse of any kind. Out of all the cars I've worked on for the past 12
years, I can honestly say that Saturns have one of the worst timing
chains I've come across. They fail in situations where many other cars
would not have had a problem. Saturn knows this. They have three
updates for the chain; a revised tensioner, a revised pivot guide, and a
revised oil pump cover with a oil spray hole. These were all solutions
to one of the two problems with the DOHC engine, the other being
excessive oil consumption but that is another subject. I had customers
with perfect service historys have the telltail chain rattle show up in
their engines without warning.
Now before someone flames me, I like Saturns. They are great cars,
but they are not perfect. There are many little problems that always
seem to show up; belt tensioners, power steering seals, auto trans
leaks, valve body failures, oil leaks, engine mount failures, coil
failures, code P0300/sticky valves, cracked heads and so on. This is
reality. These cars have their share of problems. Still, even with
those problems, I have no trouble recommending them to people as a car
to buy. In fact, they are one on the few I can recommend without
reservation, something I can't say about my current employer. Someone
also stated that if the cars had these problems, why doesn't NHTSA get
involved? They only get involved in safty issues, not
reliability/durabiliy concerns. It's just not their jurisdiction.
With that said, don't concern yourself with timing chain failures,
odds are you won't have a problem. Use Saturn recommended 5w-30, a
Saturn oil filter, change your oil RELIGIOUSLY at 3000 miles, and NEVER
overheat the engine. You'll get many carefree miles from the engine.
Ray Hagemann
(a list of my qualifications, in case you doubt my knowledge)
Certified Master Auto Technician
Certified Engine Machinist
Advanced Engine Performance Certified
Saturn Certified (15 day training plus updates)
Land Rover Certified Technician
Charter Member Service Technicians Society
Student Member Society of Automotive Engineers
Technician since 1986
Wanda Hill
Chris Mauritz wrote:
>
CM> Steven M. Scharf <sch...@grin.net> wrote:
SMS> > r...@no-spam-me-buddy.mindless.com wrote in message
SMS> > <358a9103...@news.planetc.com>...
REH> >>Now I was just curious what kind of Saturn you have.
SMS> > As you are well aware, I do not have one, just like some of the
other
SMS> > regular posters on this group.
CM> Name one (simple, right?) regular poster who hasn't owned a
CM> Saturn...other than yourself, of course.
Actually, Chris, Steve's comment about "just like" is a disingenuous
phrase for him to justify his continual trolling of the newsgroup while
maligning many of the rest of us regular posters and maligning Saturn in
general.
As far as timing chains go, I myself would give credence to a current or
past Saturn owner and/or mechanic, preferring to forego someone's advice
who appears to have, at most, textbook knowledge in the matter.
Inferring from past posts from Scharf, I think it would be magnanimous
to say that he has even a passing awareness in Saturn timing chains.
REH> >>If you don't have a Saturn, I consider your interest in this
newsgroup
REH> >>in interesting study in abnormal psychology.
SMS> > I consider this whole newsgroup a study in abnormal
psychology....
I don't see how Steve can possibly consider this group a study in
abnormal psychology. I have a degree in psychology, and although more
focused on information processing, I'm sure I've had a lot more
scholastic background than he has to discern what is abnormal behavior.
(OTOH, he may be alluding to first-hand experience about AP.) Perhaps
the study that discussed men's initials being an indicator of future
success or failure might have some sort of tangency here. As Steve's
initials are SMS, there may be a correlation to another meaning of the
initials SM. Perhaps that helps explain one of his fixations--timing
CHAINS. (They may provide better stimulation for him than timing BELTS.)
;-)
> The guy got plenty of good information and you got panned for passing
> bogus information (as you should). People might not give you such
> a hard time if you hadn't been caught red-handed behaving in such
> a blatantly dishonest manner. But hey, all is not lost. You can
> try to reform your image. Marion Barry got re-elected as mayor of
> Washington DC after going to prison for smoking crack on videotape.
> So anything is possible....
>
> C
Chris, as he has habitually and knowingly abused the ng for some time
(and with multiple email addresses and nearly a thousand posts to the
ng), I'm not sure he's willing or able to "reform."
Wanda
Kelley (filter THIS) Poag
First of all, I appreciate your objectivity.
Mr. Scharf has gone to great lengths to provide us all with the truth yet he
fails to provide more than citations from usenet as "support". I'm sure
that I can safely speak for the majority of the Saturn news group
participants and owners by saying that we're fully capable of handling the
truth as it relates to our cars. Rather than make blanket statements as to
the general durability, reliability, and perceived short-comings of Saturns,
can you help us all out by explaining to us in specifics the excessive oil
consumption and timing chain issues. There have been a lot of rumors spread
around and even more speculations made but as of yet, no one has come
forward to explain the what and why of these two hotly debated topics.
I hope you can help shed some light on the controversy.
Thank you.
Kelley Poag
--
"As Americans, it is our g-d given right to argue about
issues we know nothing about." - Steven M. Scharf
http://x12.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=110547102&CONTEXT=898008923.1842413594&
Typical Invective
Steven M. Scharf wrote:
>
> Typical Invective wrote in message
> <358934F6...@worldnet.att.net.spam_me>...
>
> >Yours is my favorite Scharfism to date...
>
> >Jeremy Rowland
>
> So you're impressed with people that take other's words completely
> out of context because that's the only way they can argue? I did prepare
> a nice list of these from Mr. Poag and others. I can e-mail them to you
> don't believe in this sort of deception.
>
Actually, I'd like to see the list. I don't want to seem like I'm just
picking on you because everyone else is. Everyone has their own
responsibility to appear like a total idiot rather than relying on
others to do it for them. If the others have no room to talk, I'd like
to know about that too.
--
Jeremy Rowland
My Saturn page: http://home.att.net/~psychosia/sw2/
Al Clapsaddle
Norm,
I still don't know why my ISP takes so long to get messages to me and
some never get through. One of the regulars said that a person who works
at a Saturn Retailer, said that the timing chain would not be a NHTSA
issue. Supposedly the message is on the NG but I have not seen it yet.
My question is, what happens if the chain fails and you are driving at
70 mph on the Freeway? Does the car just slowly come to a stop? Do you
have to fight to control it? or can you drive it off the road?
Also notice Steve does not USE J.D. Powers (dependability) ratings in
his quest, to show how inferior Saturns are (:]
Finally, I still find it quite amusing that he has a kill file that
includes almost everyone who does not agree with him. My kids when they
were little use to make noises and plug their ears so as to NOT hear me.
Also some immature adults will do similar things.
One who wants to communicate will use various means to explain their
view and listen to everyone. Heck, I have learned a few things by
reading Steve's posts.
Al
Typical Invective
I'd agree with Kelley. No car is perfect, every make and model has
specific problems which are seen over and over again. However, I think
the issue in this case is not whether Saturns have timing chain problems
or that they burn oil, but that there have been repeated posts of
unsubstantiated info on the topics. If someone wants to make such a
claim, there is no problem with doing so, and we as Saturn owners can
certainly take the truth (and we WANT to know these things), but any
such claims need to be backed up by evidence.
Ray, at least you seem more qualified than most of the these posters.
You surely have ready access to the official service manuals and
technical bulletins published by Saturn; quoting these would certainly
be sufficient evidence (and possibly better, if these were available
on-line at a "respectable" source, such as Saturn's web site, or Popular
Mechanics, or something along those lines...)
But as to some of the others who have posted on this NG (not naming any
names), pointers to vague rumors in other ng posts is NOT sufficient
evidence, something that "they" should have learned in "their" English
classes early in life (which "they" obviously remember, given "their"
very immaculate and calculated grammar).
Kelley (filter THIS) Poag wrote:
>
> First of all, I appreciate your objectivity.
>
> Mr. Scharf has gone to great lengths to provide us all with the truth yet he
> fails to provide more than citations from usenet as "support". I'm sure
> that I can safely speak for the majority of the Saturn news group
> participants and owners by saying that we're fully capable of handling the
> truth as it relates to our cars. Rather than make blanket statements as to
> the general durability, reliability, and perceived short-comings of Saturns,
> can you help us all out by explaining to us in specifics the excessive oil
> consumption and timing chain issues. There have been a lot of rumors spread
> around and even more speculations made but as of yet, no one has come
> forward to explain the what and why of these two hotly debated topics.
>
> I hope you can help shed some light on the controversy.
>
> Thank you.
>
> Kelley Poag
>
--
Jeremy Rowland
My Very Own Saturn Page: http://home.att.net/~psychosia/sw2/
mailto:psyc...@worldnet.att.net.spam_me
(take off the ".spam_me" to reply by email)
MST3K fan club member #59289 - "I am a number!"
A man said to the universe:
"Sir I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"The fact has not created in me
A sense of obligation."
- Stephen Crane, "War is Kind and Other Lines," XXII
BOILERPLATE: Any opinions expressed are my own and do not
necessarily represent those of my employer.
Frank Yang
In article <Eur10...@news2.new-york.net>, ri...@ritz.mordor.net says...
>
>sch...@grin.net wrote:
>> R. E. Haufler wrote in message <3587ecf3...@news.planetc.com>...
>
>>>1. When should the timing chain be replaced (how many miles,
>>>etc.)?
>
>> Somewhere between about 40K miles and infinity miles. You will
>> here all sorts of figures thrown about. You have the people with
>> early failures and you have the people who have bought into the
>> life of the engine,' or the timing chain lasts the life of the car.'
>> Reality is somewhere in-between.
>
>over and over? The above it an outright fabrication on Steve's
>part. The chain is designed to last the life of the engine. Much
>like main bearings, you only would replace it if it showed signs
>of premature wear or if it broke. That is the fact of the matter.
>Steve's reality is somewhere between is hiney cheeks, as that's
>where he tends to park his head.
>
>C
Steven M. Scharf is just desperate for attention, since he got none in real
life. Once he realized that nobody was paying him attention, he "re-cooked"
the timing chain non-issue again.
Just keep him in the corner barking. He now realized that nobody cares about
him, not even his own family. Now that Saturn's reliability has gone up,
Steven's life has no more residual value. Steven & Golden Gate Bridge, any day
now. I just hate to see the water below get polluted.
- Frank ('95 SL1)
Bruce Saunders
Frank Yang wrote:
I'm not sure what this person's (scharf) exact reputation is, but here are some
facts from my personal experience with this issue which unfortunately lend some
weight to his argument.
1. I bought my Saturn brand new (94 SL bought in Dec '93).
2. I had the oil changed (at one Saturn dealer or another) every 3-5K miles
(religiously).
3. The "upper guide" on my timing chain wore out at 85K miles and caused my timing
chain to skip. This ultimately required an engine replacement (I was given the
option to fix the problem for $2200 or a new engine for $3000).
Unfortunately I was not aware how non unique this problem may be at the time I
chose to fix it. I am personally aware of another person that had the same problem
at about the same time after purchasing the car new and performing regular
maintenance. I have heard of a third person, but don't know the specifics of their
situation. I found out about these two others by pure randomness and word of mouth
which leads me to believe that there may be many others with similar stories.
I have no desire to further anti-Saturn rumors. I'm simply stating the facts in my
particular case. It certainly seems reasonable to me that a timing chain will wear
out without proper maintenance. But if a part wears out because oil changes are
not performed RELIGIOUSLY EVERY 3K miles, that seems to be a poor design (or a good
one depending on how you look at it). Like I said, I believe that all of my oil
changes were at least every 5K miles, most of the time I think it was closer to 3
or 4K.
The question is, is my experience truly unique, or can other people state similar
facts? If my situation is unique then I will accept the unfortunate randomness
that I have experienced. If there are numerous others than I think Saturn is in
the wrong and should own up to it.
-Bruce Saunders
da...@my-dejanews.com
Al Clapsaddle <aclap...@iwaynet.net> wrote:
>..One of the regulars said that a person who works
> at a Saturn Retailer, said that the timing chain would not be a NHTSA
> issue. Supposedly the message is on the NG but I have not seen it yet.
>
> My question is, what happens if the chain fails and you are driving at
> 70 mph on the Freeway? Does the car just slowly come to a stop? Do you
Al, Doesn't the NHTSA investigate driveability(sp?) problems? I think that
this would fall into the same category, ie. engine stopped running and
resulted in heavy brakes and steering and possible loss of control. You
wouldn't think that they should list warped rotors as a safety defect, yet
that's in there.
Norm
Steven M. Scharf
shpraci...@exit109.com wrote in message
<358CC724...@exit109.com>...
<snip>
>I got to tell you, I made
>ALOT of money replacing timing chains, and not just on poorly maintained
>engines. Saturn timing chains are fragile peices that really don't like
>abuse of any kind. Out of all the cars I've worked on for the past 12
>years, I can honestly say that Saturns have one of the worst timing
>chains I've come across.
<snip>
Thanks so much for this dose of reality. It was sorely needed
with all the 'it lasts forever' claims. Could you share with us
what the typical mileage was at which you replaced timing chains, or
did it vary all over the place (as we've seen from people who have
posted in this group who have had the problem)? I guess the best thing
to do is to spread the word about the tell-tale rattle so people don't
ignore it, and get the chain and related components replaced.
I'm also familiar with the cracked heads, the timing chains, the warped
rotors, and the oil burning that you mention. IIRC though, the cracked
heads are really the result of cooling system problems combined with
the thin aluminum block; not much room for error in there. Some repair
shops don't bother to check the manual or the Alldata CD and fail to
add the special tabs to the coolant after they flush the cooling
system, which leads to premature failure of the cooling system.
>Now before someone flames me, I like Saturns. They are great cars,
>but they are not perfect. There are many little problems that always
>seem to show up; belt tensioners, power steering seals, auto trans
>leaks, valve body failures, oil leaks, engine mount failures, coil
>failures, code P0300/sticky valves, cracked heads and so on. This is
>reality. These cars have their share of problems. Still, even with
>those problems, I have no trouble recommending them to people as a car
>to buy.
You obviously have different criteria in choosing vehicles to recommend
than me. To me, the robustness of the engine is of paramount concern
because I keep my cars a long time. I'll live with a few more electrical
problems, A/C problems, and smaller problems in exchange for an engine
that doesn't burn oil or crack when it overheats. I'll gladly pay for a
little
extra routine maintenance, such as a timimg belt, in order to avoid even
bigger problems. Saturns are a lot like Corvettes, excellent performance
for the price, which is very appealing to a lot of people. The problem is
that
some people expect them to be as trouble-free as Hondas and Toyotas,
and to last as long as Volkswagens or Volvos.
Again, thanks for posting, we needed it.
Steven M. Scharf
Bruce Saunders wrote in message <358EAA42...@n3t.com>...
>I'm not sure what this person's (scharf) exact reputation is, but here are
some
>facts from my personal experience with this issue which unfortunately lend
some
>weight to his argument.
<snip>
My reputation is that I have posted the facts about the timing chain
problems several times (in addition to other issues I posted the facts
on). I'm afraid I'm one of the people that shattered the myth that timing
chains
last 'forever,' as you just did. Understandably this has upset a few people
who would prefer that this information not be brought to the attention of
anyone. Whether it's because they are worried about resale value, or
whether it is because they feel that they have been misled by the
salesperson
and don't want to admit it, or whatever, I don't know. Anyway, my posts on
these
and other subjects have unleashed a rash a lies and personal attacks by
certain individuals, as you have witnessed.
As your post, and the post of Ray Hagemann have shown (again), that
what I stated is true. It's good to see others post the facts about this
issue as well since this will help other people be aware of it. Keep up
the good work.
Norm Dang
Steven M. Scharf <sch...@grin.net> wrote in article .
> ...My interest in it is to try to inject some normalcy into it, and
> to help people out....
Steve
Why then did you pose as a woman when you first started posting in this
newsgroup ? How could this be considered normal and how does this help
anyone out ?
Bob recently asked you twice to explain those earlier posts. I'm sure
everyone here is still waiting to hear your explanation.
Norm
Zipster200
Scharf Scharfed:
>Again, thanks for posting, we needed it.
>Steve
"We needed it?"
I guess Steve(s) is finally beginning to come to terms
with his/their dual personality problem.
Zipster200
Scharf Scharfed:
>My reputation is that I have posted the facts about
>the timing chain problems several times
Scharf, you're too modest! Your reputation is far more
intricate than that. As long as your here, would you mind
addressing the following:
1. Why did you harrass this newsgroup for weeks
under the alias of "Karen Chiu?"
Yup. In addition to the Karen Chiu persona, he was caught
red handed posting as Philip McKinney and also possibly as
Joe Damenski. Seems rather amusing that when ol' Scharf
would get into trouble, a horde of previously
unknown folks with hotmail accounts would post from
National Semiconductor (steve's employer) IP addresses.
So in spite of the fact that Steve will occasionally post a smidgeon
of truth mixed in with the nonsense, he's basically a proven liar,
a general nuissance, and since the man has never owned a
Saturn and posts constantly on this newsgroup, it's safe
to presume that the man has some "timing chain" problems
of his own.
Wanda Hill
Steven M. Scharf wrote:
<snip>
> this dose of reality. It was sorely needed with all the 'it lasts forever' claims.
I believe VERY few people have claimed "it lasts forever."
Welcome to rec.autos.makers.saturn, Ray. Hope to read more from you.
Wanda (97 SC1)
Wanda Hill
Steve Scharf wrote (in his "Oh, boy--newer readers to counteract those
pesky killfile-22 people")--
> My reputation is that I have posted the facts about the timing chain
> problems several times (in addition to other issues I posted the facts
> on). I'm afraid I'm one of the people that shattered the myth that timing
> chains
> last 'forever,' as you just did. Understandably this has upset a few people
> who would prefer that this information not be brought to the attention of
> anyone. Whether it's because they are worried about resale value, or
> whether it is because they feel that they have been misled by the
> salesperson
> and don't want to admit it, or whatever, I don't know. Anyway, my posts on
> these
> and other subjects have unleashed a rash a lies and personal attacks by
> certain individuals, as you have witnessed.
>
> As your post, and the post of Ray Hagemann have shown (again), that
> what I stated is true. It's good to see others post the facts about this
> issue as well since this will help other people be aware of it.
Welcome, Ray and Bruce.
Steve,
As the subject header has mentioned--someone who really knows. You're
not even a textbook Saturn student, much less an owner. You rarely post
to newsgroups for the vehicles you DO own, preferring to post
maliciously and often in a newsgroup for a vehicle you DON'T own.
(Reputation? ...)
As far as rash of lies, etc., well, you're the master baiter. You choose
to embrace newer readers' posts that you deem worthy of responding to if
it will help your anti-Saturn mission, refusing to acknowledge those who
have requested information from you or rebutted/disproved you. In fact,
you choose to killfile me and numerous others, ignoring or dismissing
OUR facts. In adddition, you smear us with your collective brush while
posting to newer readers, they being your delivery vehicles of choice.
You didn't disappoint me in my intuition that you'd respond to Ray and
Bruce, as they were newer readers and posted something that could
bolster your anti-Saturnism while allowing you snipe at many Saturn
owners.
Everyone else--
Though supposedly Steve doesn't read what I post, I've addressed him
anyway to get another POV to the newsgroup.
Wanda (one of Scharf's killfile-22, 2 Saturns in our family)
Chris Mauritz
> <snip>
>> this dose of reality. It was sorely needed with all the 'it lasts forever' claims.
> I believe VERY few people have claimed "it lasts forever."
There seems to be unanimous agreement that Steve has lied in the
past and that his posts are biased. :-)
> Welcome to rec.autos.makers.saturn, Ray. Hope to read more from you.
Indeed!
Cheers,
Robert S. White
In article <6mn9qu$g...@netaxs.com>, sch...@grin.net says...
>My reputation is that I have posted the facts about the timing chain
>problems several times (in addition to other issues I posted the facts
>on).
You have re-posted other's posts. No real new info added. Are
you trying to provide a DejaNews service for new Usenet users. Why?
Some personal agenda? Your posts where/are slanted to say that
"all" Saturns have such problems. No ratio for problem cars versus
no problem cars. When Saturn owners/users post that they do not see
such problems, you attack them and claim that they are in denial. This
goes over like a lead balloon.
>I'm afraid I'm one of the people that shattered the myth that timing
>chains
>last 'forever,' as you just did. Understandably this has upset a few people
>who would prefer that this information not be brought to the attention of
>anyone. Whether it's because they are worried about resale value, or
>whether it is because they feel that they have been misled by the
>salesperson
>and don't want to admit it, or whatever, I don't know. Anyway, my posts on
>these
>and other subjects have unleashed a rash a lies and personal attacks by
>certain individuals, as you have witnessed.
This coming from a person who has previously posted using his wife's
name to hide behind! Sorry you still have not "shattered the myth that
timing chains last forever". They still can in cars that miss certain
manufacturing or design defects and are maintained to a very high
standard. Ray Hagemann's post about oil consumption problems and timing
chain problems does not cover all the older Saturns. I own a 92 SL2
that has with last part of VIN = NZ248549 seemed to miss the early "valve
stem polishing" problem and the later "oil bleed hole in tensioner"
problem. Plus I admit that I am really anal about changing the oil
every three _months_ (due to normal short trip usage). Nothing Ray or
other Saturn mechanics has posted leads me to expect a timing chain
failure within the normal to expect engine lifetime (200K miles ?) as
long as the frequent oil changes continue. Time or a newer
authoritative posting (by someone with real facts) could prove me wrong.
>As your post, and the post of Ray Hagemann have shown (again), that
>what I stated is true. It's good to see others post the facts about this
>issue as well since this will help other people be aware of it. Keep up
>the good work.
Ray's post is very very welcome! He posts real facts, real VIN
ranges, and real TSB's that weave a coherent believable story that also
allows for some Saturns working OK to 200K to even 300K without oil
consumption or timing chain replacements. As to Bruce Saunders'
problems (and the others he relates) with Ray's post it becomes
quite reasonable to see that there could be certain build ranges
of Saturns that have a propensity for failures earlier than one would
hope for. Ray's post indicates that the final TSB answer for
possible timing chain failures came out in June 1997. Another post
on the '99 Saturns says that the timing chain was redesigned. As an
engineer this all seems to be perfectly reasonable. If Saturn
keeps this incremental improvement up they could end up with a
"real" Northstar engine.
_____________________________________________________________________
Robert S. White -- An embedded systems software engineer
e-mail reply to reverse of ( add .'s ): net mcleodusa shift2 r white
Steven M. Scharf
Bruce Saunders wrote in message <358EAA42...@n3t.com>...
<snip>
>I'm not sure what this person's (scharf) exact reputation is, but here are
some
>facts from my personal experience with this issue which unfortunately lend
some
>weight to his argument.
<snip>
>Unfortunately I was not aware how non unique this problem may be at the
time I
>chose to fix it. I am personally aware of another person that had the same
problem
>at about the same time after purchasing the car new and performing regular
>maintenance. I have heard of a third person, but don't know the specifics
of their
>situation. I found out about these two others by pure randomness and word
of mouth
>which leads me to believe that there may be many others with similar
stories.
There are.
Folks, Bruce and Ray's posts pretty much settle this issue. I'll add them to
the timing
chain archives and let's all admit the truth here. Let's be grateful to the
people that
brought this issue to closure, and let's stop wasting bandwidth with any
more on this.
Kelley (filter THIS) Poag
>Folks, Bruce and Ray's posts pretty much settle this issue. I'll add them
to
>the timing
>chain archives and let's all admit the truth here. Let's be grateful to the
>people that
>brought this issue to closure, and let's stop wasting bandwidth with any
If you think that the post from Ray which goes into more detail about the
valve guide and timing chain problems than you were ever capable of
comprehending, validates your argument in any way, you've got another thing
coming.
Your blanket statements based on a handful of usenet posts were nothing more
than an attempt to smear Saturns and Saturn owners. You NEVER came up with
any substantive data to support your claims. Instead, you hid behind
aliases like Karen Chiu and Philip McKinney in a pathetic and futile attempt
to make yourself look better.
To me, you are and will always be a certified, grade A kook and LIAR. The
fact that Ray was FINALLY able to provide us with the information that
eluded YOU for so long, and that Ray's explanation happened to back your
otherwise impotent and transparent campaign of virtual slander is PURE LUCK.
You are free to leave us alone now.
Jeremy Rowland
Steven M. Scharf wrote:
>
>
> Folks, Bruce and Ray's posts pretty much settle this issue. I'll add them to
> the timing
> chain archives and let's all admit the truth here. Let's be grateful to the
> people that
> brought this issue to closure, and let's stop wasting bandwidth with any
>
>
So, I guess YOU "won"? Just keep telling yourself that.
The truth is out there.
In fact, I found it.
It's in Topeka, Kansas, if you're curious...
--
Jeremy Rowland KB1CLH
shpraci...@exit109.com
> I'm also familiar with the cracked heads, the timing chains, the warped
> rotors, and the oil burning that you mention. IIRC though, the cracked
> heads are really the result of cooling system problems combined with
> the thin aluminum block; not much room for error in there. Some repair
> shops don't bother to check the manual or the Alldata CD and fail to
> add the special tabs to the coolant after they flush the cooling
> system, which leads to premature failure of the cooling system.
>
the head cracking problem. There has been a rash of SOHC engines
cracking along the camshaft journals, typically number 3 journal, and
NOT the blocks. Saturn engine blocks are very robust. The cooling
systems also have few problems, short of the odd failed water pumps and
slight weepage from the weep hole. The tablets you speak off are to
lube the water pump and to seal any small leak that my come from the
water pump. They have been used by GM for years and are an excellent
product. Owners of some Saturns may notice a slight sludge in their
coolant bottles right from day one, thats the residue of the tablets and
is normal.
> I'll live with a few more electrical
> problems, A/C problems, and smaller problems in exchange for an engine
> that doesn't burn oil or crack when it overheats.
>
While Saturn's have some AC problems (leaks), they have almost no
electrical problems, the oil consumption problem is not that bad (and
for the most part been solved), and almost any aluminium headed engine
will crack when overheated. Even the almighty Honda's suffer that fate
> some people expect them to be as trouble-free as Hondas and Toyotas,
> and to last as long as Volkswagens or Volvos.
>
Honda's and Toyota's are excellent cars,but they also have their share
of problems, don't believe the hype. Don't ever break a timing belt on
a Honda, it'll cost you. I've worked with service people from many
different companys, and they all have stories of the same problems that
hapopen over and over. A freind of mine with a transmission shop keeps
cores on hand for certain Toyota, Nissan, and Honda transmissions as
they all have at least one part that fails on a regular basis. My
current service maneger was a service maneger for Volkswagen, and he had
a new story everyday about them. I'm not an expert on those lines of
cars, so I can't give you chapter and verse on them, but I do know that
they are not perfect.
Also remember this, if we all bought cars based on one criteria, like
absolute reliability, then we'd all be driving Lexus LS400. But we
don't, we buy cars that stir us in some way, and for some people it's
the Saturn experience, whether it's real or a put on, people like it.
Saturn is very good to customers who are loyal to them. I got a million
storys about people getting things from Saturn that dead to rights
Saturn didn't have to do, but they wanted to make the customer happy.
By the way, I worked for a Chevy/Saturn dealer, and comparing buying a
Corvette to buying a Honda is a little off. Untill you've taken an LS8
or ZR1 Vette for a spin, you have no idea about why people buy them.
And they do have a decent reliability.
Ray Hagemann
Paul W. Henne
In article <3591462E...@exit109.com>, shpraci...@exit109.com
says...
>> some people expect them to be as trouble-free as Hondas and Toyotas,
>> and to last as long as Volkswagens or Volvos.
>>
> Honda's and Toyota's are excellent cars,but they also have their share
>of problems, don't believe the hype. Don't ever break a timing belt on
>a Honda, it'll cost you. I've worked with service people from many
>different companys, and they all have stories of the same problems that
>hapopen over and over. A freind of mine with a transmission shop keeps
>cores on hand for certain Toyota, Nissan, and Honda transmissions as
>they all have at least one part that fails on a regular basis. My
>current service maneger was a service maneger for Volkswagen, and he had
>a new story everyday about them. I'm not an expert on those lines of
>cars, so I can't give you chapter and verse on them, but I do know that
>they are not perfect.
Are you reading, Steve Scharf? Why do you seem to be in denial of this
little dosage of truth?
> Also remember this, if we all bought cars based on one criteria, like
>absolute reliability, then we'd all be driving Lexus LS400. But we
>don't, we buy cars that stir us in some way, and for some people it's
>the Saturn experience, whether it's real or a put on, people like it.
>Saturn is very good to customers who are loyal to them. I got a million
>storys about people getting things from Saturn that dead to rights
>Saturn didn't have to do, but they wanted to make the customer happy.
Steve Scharf does not consider things like this as a reason for choosing a
car, apparently. I guess ignorance really is bliss!
Paul
--
-------------- Paul W. Henne <p...@clark.net> --------------
"Good judgement comes from experience; and experience, well,
that comes from bad judgement." - Anonymous
-------------------------------------------------------------
Norm Dang
Al,
Ray just made an excellent post. May be you can get one of your higher up
friends to comment on the issue? It still doesn't excuse Steve for posing
as a woman.
Good post Ray,
Norm
--
To e-mail me, remove 1a and 1a
norm....@a1hydro.on.ca
Al Clapsaddle <aclap...@iwaynet.net> wrote
> I still don't know why my ISP takes so long to get messages to me and
> some never get through. One of the regulars said that a person who works
> at a Saturn Retailer, said that the timing chain would not be a NHTSA
> issue. Supposedly the message is on the NG but I have not seen it yet.
> .......
Steven M. Scharf
Jeremy Rowland wrote in message
<35913DA3...@worldnet.att.net.spam_me>...
>So, I guess YOU "won"? Just keep telling yourself that.
Jeremy:
On these long and argumentative threads I always like to go back
and read the original post so I can see if, in the end, the poster's
question was actually answered definitively. With the posts from Ray,
Bruce, and myself, I see that it was.
In a sense we all won. Even those that 'lost' will now be on the
look out for timing chain related problems and they will certainly
be less likely to belive any salesperson's canned pitch. I don't
think we'll be seeing any 'they last forever' fables being posted
for a while. If you go back and look at all the posts on this subject,
you'll find no source of the 'they last forever' view, other than that
expressed by salespeople and repeated often enough for people to
believe it.
The truth won--as it so often ends up doing in the end.
Steve
----------------------------------------------------------------
A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when
the need for illusion is deep. Saul Bellow
----------------------------------------------------------------
Brian Flickinger
Hello all, I have found your group through the Saturn Owners Collective and
this thread through the "Troll under the bridge.." area of the site. I'm
investigator number 64 for the record. And I was looking for new brake
rotors/pads for my future spouses Saturn.
Now for the good/bad news, I hear by volunteer to be the troll as soon as
Steven wishes to relinquish his title. As an owner / maintainer of two
Saturn's (now one) of different years/models I can attest to Saturn's hideous
treatment of it's customers. I forced Saturn to buy back one of our cars after
it spent over 30 days in the shop due to it's anti-lock brakes not working in
rain/wet conditions (i.e. what I paid extra for). Then the dealership damaged
the car further and sent me out on the road with it. Due to a situation I
could not avoid, I now have a criminal charge against myself do to Saturn's
actions. Of course, in court Saturn will not even admit to any problem, even
though they admitted it all (well documented) in writing. Whoa, talk about
trying to avoid corporate responsibility (this car has since been resold to
someone in Colorado, I keep getting extended warranty offers in the mail,
because Saturn never updated their computers.)
Our other Saturn had brake rotors warped/replaced at about 7k miles and
resurfaced at 11k, 16k, 27k, 33k and will be replaced soon with better grade
rotors. Saturn replaced the rotors at 7k after an accident (A true fender
bender, i.e.. not much damage to the Saturn's nose) in which both front brake
pads snapped into pieces under heavy braking, do to, in Saturn's words, "The
brake rotors are warped..." The car had been in the shop 2 months earlier with
a pulsation in the brake pedal which Saturn explained away as "normal break
in."
Now onto my "Trollish business", understand that if you wish to respond, go
ahead. I inform the news group that I use it as a resource and not as a center
to argue. I may respond every so-often to posts/mail but I am quick with the
delete key as I get tons of mail. And there is little I can add to discussions
of how to maintain Saturn's as, until I do the rotors, I haven't done anything
that unusual.
Now to be somewhat fair, I bought my Saturn (the one with the Anti-Lock Brake
problem) due to a friend who has 180k miles on his. No he has not changed the
oil in 50k miles. It burns a quart of oil every 250 miles so he keeps dumping
new oil in. Yes I have told him about sludge build up. No he doesn't care.
Yes he expresses his mileage as 30 miles per gallon and 250 per quart. But
it's got 180k on it.
Troll in Training
Brian F.
P.S. Ralph Nadar never owned a Corvair.
Steven M. Scharf wrote:
> r...@no-spam-me-buddy.mindless.com wrote in message
> <358a9103...@news.planetc.com>...
>
> >No, I wanted information, and I got good information, some from you.
>
> Glad to hear that.
>
> >Now I was just curious what kind of Saturn you have.
>
> As you are well aware, I do not have one, just like some of the other
> regular posters on this group.
>
> >If you don't have a Saturn, I consider your interest in this newsgroup
> >in interesting study in abnormal psychology.
>
> I consider this whole newsgroup a study in abnormal psychology.
> My interest in it is to try to inject some normalcy into it, and
> to help people out. This is why I answered your post with facts and
> logic rather than with meaningless (and false) platitudes about it
> lasting 'forever.'
>
> What would make an interesting study would be to examine why some
> people are appreciative when they are made aware of potential problems
> and appropriate countermeasures, and why some people are unhappy
> to find out about it. It's like being scared of going to the doctor because
> they might find something wrong; the problem is still there and getting
> worse, running away from it doesn't help.
>
> By the way, you should realize that there are other more prolific
> (though much less helpful) posters than myself on this group that
> also do not own a Saturn. You can find some of them by reading
> posts by regular people who ask them to take their inane arguments
> to e-mail to stop cluttering the newsgroup.
>
> If you want an owners forum where only owners post then these are
> available, but of course you don't get unbiased assistance from
> those who know more than the owners and that don't have blinders on.
>
> Steve
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> Experiments with laboratory rats have shown that, if one
> psychologist in the room laughs at something a rat does, all of
> the other psychologists in the room will laugh equally. Nobody
> wants to be left holding the joke. Garrison Keillor
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
Kelley (filter THIS) Poag
Steven M. Scharf wrote in message <6mt05b$q...@netaxs.com>...
>
>Jeremy Rowland wrote in message
><35913DA3...@worldnet.att.net.spam_me>...
>
>>So, I guess YOU "won"? Just keep telling yourself that.
>
>
>Jeremy:
>
>On these long and argumentative threads I always like to go back
>and read the original post so I can see if, in the end, the poster's
>question was actually answered definitively. With the posts from Ray,
>Bruce, and myself, I see that it was.
OH, PUH-LEEZE!
You had very little to do with answering anything. It was Ray that came up
with the hard data that just happened to support your
researched-from-the-national-inquirer claims of Saturn reliability. You
just got lucky.
Oh, by the way, be careful not to throw your shoulder out from patting
yourself on the back.
Could you do us a favor Steve, (aside from leaving us the hell alone and
eating your I-told-you-so's) explain to us why you could NOT come up with
the same data that Ray came up with? You've been harassing us now for a
good 2 years but it took a relative new-comer just a day or so to put out
the flames you ignited with your half-baked and opinionated posts.
>
>In a sense we all won. Even those that 'lost' will now be on the
What's this WE crap? You don't have a Saturn. You have nothing to gain
from Ray's post. (I can just imagine Steve saying to himself, "Yeah!
That's what I meant to say, what HE said" when he read Ray's post) If you
don't mind, Mr. Bloatyhead, get a new news group started called
alt.scharf.is.god, and post to yourself using all your aliases. Be sure to
have all your sock puppets tell you just how smart you are. Tell yourself
just how right you were all along. And don't forget to remind yourself of
just how insignificant Saturn owners are, and how we mindlessly follow the
Saturn sheepherder wherever he may lead us.
Hey I just remembered, my Saturn dealer invited me to a 4th of July party.
They said there would be lots of hamburgers and hot-dogs, even BLUE
KOOL-AID.
>look out for timing chain related problems and they will certainly
>be less likely to belive any salesperson's canned pitch. I don't
>think we'll be seeing any 'they last forever' fables being posted
>for a while. If you go back and look at all the posts on this subject,
>you'll find no source of the 'they last forever' view, other than that
>expressed by salespeople and repeated often enough for people to
>believe it.
>
>The truth won--as it so often ends up doing in the end.
Yeah! Thanks again RAY!
Go away Steve. Your mission is complete. You can die a happy man (or
woman, we've never figured THAT out).
Buh-Bye
Wanda Hill
Brian Flickinger wrote:
> P.S. Ralph Nadar never owned a Corvair.
I would hardly put Scharf in the same category as Ralph Nader.
BTW, you at least elaborated on your Saturn experiences and your basis
for having bought them to begin with.
Wanda
Jeremy Rowland
Kelley (filter THIS) Poag wrote:
>
> You had very little to do with answering anything. It was Ray that came up
> with the hard data that just happened to support your
> researched-from-the-national-inquirer claims of Saturn reliability. You
> just got lucky.
>
Actually, based on what I've seen of Steve's sources, the National
Enquirer is a MUCH more reliable source of information. At least they
have photographic evidence...
Chris Mauritz
Jeremy Rowland <psyc...@worldnet.att.net.spam_me> wrote:
> Kelley (filter THIS) Poag wrote:
>>
>> OH, PUH-LEEZE!
>> You had very little to do with answering anything. It was Ray that came up
>> with the hard data that just happened to support your
>> researched-from-the-national-inquirer claims of Saturn reliability. You
>> just got lucky.
>>
> Actually, based on what I've seen of Steve's sources, the National
> Enquirer is a MUCH more reliable source of information. At least they
> have photographic evidence...
A picture of Steve would be amusing. One of his coworkers sent me
email and referred to him as "the troll"....and he wasn't talking
about his usenet posting habits. 8-)
Wanda Hill
Harry said--
> Hey Wanda!
>
> >> P.S. Ralph Nadar never owned a Corvair.
> >
> >I would hardly put Scharf in the same category as Ralph Nader.
> >
>
<snip--sorry, Harry>
Scharf is worse.
Ralph never said about me, as Scharf did on 3/26/98, "Honesty is the
thing you can expect the least of from people such as this poster."
Wanda
Harry Crawford King III
In article <Ev4Gy...@news2.new-york.net>,
Chris Mauritz <ri...@ritz.mordor.net> wrote:
>
>A picture of Steve would be amusing. One of his coworkers sent me
>email and referred to him as "the troll"....and he wasn't talking
>about his usenet posting habits. 8-)
>
ROTFL!!! You know, Chris, the worst thing about that is that he won't see
it, seeing as how so many folks are on his killfile list.
Harry
--
Harry Crawford King III
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp: ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!gtd845a
Internet: gtd...@prism.gatech.edu
Chris Mauritz
Harry Crawford King III <gtd...@prism.gatech.edu> wrote:
> In article <Ev4Gy...@news2.new-york.net>,
> Chris Mauritz <ri...@ritz.mordor.net> wrote:
>>
>>A picture of Steve would be amusing. One of his coworkers sent me
>>email and referred to him as "the troll"....and he wasn't talking
>>about his usenet posting habits. 8-)
>>
> ROTFL!!! You know, Chris, the worst thing about that is that he won't see
> it, seeing as how so many folks are on his killfile list.
I don't believe for one second that he really filters our posts. It
must take every ounce of restraint Steve/Karen/Philip/Joe has to keep
from responding. hehehe
Steven M. Scharf
Brian Flickinger wrote in message <3592A95E...@erols.com>...
<snip>
>However the Saturn Owners Collective's web page gives him(Steven) so
>much credibility, one can only wonder what SOC's motives are. Of
>course with all the posts about bad rotors to this group, it is
>evident SOC's web space devoted to Steven could be put to better
>use. How about information on a e-mail, mail, call-in campaign to
>get a partial/prorated refund for the known brake rotor problems.
Brian, I think I suggested such a thing about a year and a half
ago for the oil burning problem. Rather than attacking people
that post that they have a problem and try to deny the problem exists
(which never works by the way), or attacking people that bring
major problems to light, they could better spend their time on
joining together to force a resolution to these issues, even if they
have not yet had the problem.
Maybe your post will be the impetus for this. I'd like nothing more
than to see these people use their collective energies effectively
rather than see them wasting their time trying to stop me from
posting the facts about issues. The key is to find a way to redirect
their passion to accomplish positive things.
Jay Millikan
Wait a goddamn minute.
Now you're telling us that you'd pay for extra maintenance? You posted
earlier that these supposed super cars didn't need the maintenance that the
Saturns did. Make up your mind, jackass! I am so tired of you.
Jay Millikan
Why? Because you know that we all want you to shut the hell up? Have you
finally figured that you're not the center of this newsgroup because you're
informative or insightful? Try pathetic and laughable. Take your twenty-five
cent words and cram them up your two dollar ass.
Steven M. Scharf wrote: There are.
> Folks, Bruce and Ray's posts pretty much settle this issue. I'll add them to
> the timing
> chain archives and let's all admit the truth here. Let's be grateful to the
> people that
> brought this issue to closure, and let's stop wasting bandwidth with any
> more on this.
>
> Steve
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> The hardest thing to explain is the glaringly evident which
> everybody had decided not to see. Ayn Rand
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
--
邢 唷��