QUOTES- Aviation related
Roma Maxwell
one for your sig? Send it in. Do you have a cool bumper sticker? Email it
to me... (or post it here.) Please include the source if possible, so I can
give credit where credit is due.
Also welcome are poems or catch phrases which use flying as a metaphor, for
example:
"When we walk to the edge of all the light we have and take the step into the
darkness of the unknown, we must believe that one of 2 things will happen:
there will be something solid for us to stand on, or we will learn to fly."
-Anonymous
Please tell me if anyone has done this before, or where I could find it on
the net. When the file get's big enough, I'll post it for everyone.
David Bratzer (dbra...@is.dal.ca)
Roger Basford
<Roma_M...@bbs.mmcs.com> writes
>I want to put together a compendium of aviation related quotes. Do you have
>one for your sig? Send it in. Do you have a cool bumper sticker? Email it
>to me... (or post it here.) Please include the source if possible, so I can
>give credit where credit is due.
>
>Also welcome are poems or catch phrases which use flying as a metaphor, for
>example:
>
How about "There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are
no old, bold pilots". - Anon. (I first heard this from an Aussis crop-
duster in Indonesia back in 1969).
Roger Basford
*----------------------------------*
( e-mail Bas...@g3vkm.demon.co.uk )
( Haddiscoe, Norwich, U.K. )
*----------------------------------*
Sandy Redding
>
> In article <302577235...@mmcs.com>, Roma Maxwell
> <Roma_M...@bbs.mmcs.com> writes
> >I want to put together a compendium of aviation related quotes. Do you have
> >one for your sig? Send it in. Do you have a cool bumper sticker? Email it
> >to me... (or post it here.) Please include the source if possible, so I can
> >give credit where credit is due.
> >
> >Also welcome are poems or catch phrases which use flying as a metaphor, for
> >example:
> >
>
> How about "There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are
> no old, bold pilots". - Anon. (I first heard this from an Aussis crop-
> duster in Indonesia back in 1969).
> Roger Basford
"The only time a fighter has too much gas is when it's on fire."
CDR Tom Sobieck, VF-51, 1989
--
Sandy Redding
sred...@blues.chinalake.navy.mil
Joe Falls
Roma Maxwell
>> <Roma_M...@bbs.mmcs.com> writes >I want to put together a
>> compendium of aviation related quotes.
The 3 most useless things to an Air Force Bomber Pilot are-
1. The sky above you.
2. The runway behind you.
3. A Field Grade Bombardier!
hhutc...@cornell-iowa.edu
> after his and Willie's F-4 took a missile hit over NVN and he dashed
> for the coast.
Note: Duke had notched three MiGs that day, including Colonel
Tomb, who had downed 17 planes and made the mistake of trying to make
"Duke" #18. He got a Sidewinder up the tail for that and became an
object lesson.
--
"No weapon in the arsenals of the world is as powerful as the will and
courage of a free people."
"We will always remember. We will always be proud. We will always be
prepared, so we may always be free."
"History teaches us that wars begin when governments believe the price
of aggression is cheap."
"All the way into the hangar."
- Ronald W. Reagan, 40th President of the United States.
God bless him, and God Bless AMERICA!
Alexei Gretchikhine
> There's a lot of controversy over Colonel Tomb's existance, you know.
...
> touted this super-pilot pretty extensively. I've also been told by a
> friend born in VN that "Tomb" isn't a Vietnamese name or word (they
> have a word for tombs, of course, but it isn't "tomb", which is the
> name always used about this pilot). Ethell and Price aren't wild
> about the Russian pilot incognito idea, either, but several fiction
> writers have been fond of this one (including Tom Clancy, in "Without
> Remorse", although he gives his pilot a different name).
Reminds me an old song my Dad was wistling:
Tolko na doprose I sprosil
Kto tot as kotoryi menya sbil
I otvetil tot rascosyi chto comandyval doprosom
"Sbil tebya nash letchik Li Si Tsin"
I only asked this durring interrogation
Who was that ace who shot me down
And vietnamese responded to my quest
"You were downed by our pilot Li Si Tsin"
PS Li Si Tsin = Lisitsin - common last name in Russia.
--
Alexei Gretchikhine agr...@opie.bgsu.edu
http://ernie.bgsu.edu/~agretch/
Russian Aviation Page http://ernie.bgsu.edu/~agretch/RAP.html
--
Mary Shafer
> "Willie, how long can you tread water?" CDR Randy "Duke" Cunningham,
> after his and Willie's F-4 took a missile hit over NVN and he dashed
> for the coast.
hh> Note: Duke had notched three MiGs that day, including Colonel
hh> Tomb, who had downed 17 planes and made the mistake of trying to make
hh> "Duke" #18. He got a Sidewinder up the tail for that and became an
hh> object lesson.
Yeah, but Randy and Willie went swimming, too. Were it not for
Martin-Baker and the F-4's resistance to battle damage, those two
could have been posthumus aces. Not that I'm letting my fondness for
the Phantom affect my judgement--we got a lot of missile-shot Phantoms
home, but the NVNAF MiGs seem to have been more fragile. Or maybe it
was a difference in warheads, but I kind of doubt that--shrapnel is
shrapnel and pretty easy to produce. The USSR has always produced
extremely good armaments.
"That day" was 10 May 1972, I think. It was the "One Day in a Long
War", Ethell and Price's book. That was also the day that Steve
Ritchie got his first MiG.
If you want to talk about luck, consider the Viggie that flew recce
that same day. It actually photographed the missile or AA (I don't
remember but it's an incredible photo) that exploded right under it,
sending shrapnel throughout the aft fuselage. Not one piece hit any
of the aircraft systems. While the skin was pierced in numerous
places, top and bottom, that was the only damage.
There's a lot of controversy over Colonel Tomb's existance, you know.
Ethell and Price are pretty indefinite about the whole thing, but I
get the idea that they think he (as one single pilot) never existed.
This seems to be based on the lack of positive identification and a
surprising lack of publicity by the NVN government's PR apparatus.
They dragged a lot of pilots out who'd shot down a US plane, but never
said a word about Tomb. In a country at war, with ordnance raining
out of the sky, it seems pretty unlikely that they wouldn't have
touted this super-pilot pretty extensively. I've also been told by a
friend born in VN that "Tomb" isn't a Vietnamese name or word (they
have a word for tombs, of course, but it isn't "tomb", which is the
name always used about this pilot). Ethell and Price aren't wild
about the Russian pilot incognito idea, either, but several fiction
writers have been fond of this one (including Tom Clancy, in "Without
Remorse", although he gives his pilot a different name).
--
Mary Shafer NASA Dryden Flight Research Center, Edwards, CA
SR-71 Flying Qualities Lead Engineer Of course I don't speak for NASA
sha...@ferhino.dfrc.nasa.gov DoD #362 KotFR
URL http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/People/Shafer/mary.html
hhutc...@cornell-iowa.edu
>> after his and Willie's F-4 took a missile hit over NVN and he dashed
>> for the coast.
>
> hh> Note: Duke had notched three MiGs that day, including Colonel
> hh> Tomb, who had downed 17 planes and made the mistake of trying to make
> hh> "Duke" #18. He got a Sidewinder up the tail for that and became an
> hh> object lesson.
>
> Yeah, but Randy and Willie went swimming, too. Were it not for
> Martin-Baker and the F-4's resistance to battle damage, those two
> could have been posthumus aces. Not that I'm letting my fondness for
> the Phantom affect my judgement--we got a lot of missile-shot Phantoms
> home, but the NVNAF MiGs seem to have been more fragile. Or maybe it
> was a difference in warheads, but I kind of doubt that--shrapnel is
> shrapnel and pretty easy to produce. The USSR has always produced
> extremely good armaments.
got it out beyond the coast and to the point where they could safely
punch out. I still will make one BLANKET assertion: "Duke" Cunningham
is THE hottest stick that has ever SERVED in the Congress.
> "That day" was 10 May 1972, I think. It was the "One Day in a Long
> War", Ethell and Price's book. That was also the day that Steve
> Ritchie got his first MiG.
I wonder how many Duke would have had if he'd been able to
stay there until the thing ended.
> There's a lot of controversy over Colonel Tomb's existance, you know.
> Ethell and Price are pretty indefinite about the whole thing, but I
> get the idea that they think he (as one single pilot) never existed.
> This seems to be based on the lack of positive identification and a
> surprising lack of publicity by the NVN government's PR apparatus.
> They dragged a lot of pilots out who'd shot down a US plane, but never
> said a word about Tomb.
Well, they've been quiet since the war - probably because Duke
blasted him out of the sky.
Mary Shafer
SR> Roger Basford wrote:
>
> In article <302577235...@mmcs.com>, Roma Maxwell
> <Roma_M...@bbs.mmcs.com> writes >I want to put together a
> compendium of aviation related quotes. Do you have >one for your
> sig? Send it in. Do you have a cool bumper sticker? Email it >to
> me... (or post it here.) Please include the source if possible, so
> I can >give credit where credit is due. > >Also welcome are poems
> or catch phrases which use flying as a metaphor, for >example: >
>
> How about "There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are
> no old, bold pilots". - Anon. (I first heard this from an Aussis crop-
> duster in Indonesia back in 1969).
I heard it from an instructor in 1968--I suspect it goes back to the
barnstorming days at least.
SR> "The only time a fighter has too much gas is when it's on fire."
SR> CDR Tom Sobieck, VF-51, 1989
"Turn to kill, not to engage." CDR Willie Driscoll, USN
"Willie, how long can you tread water?" CDR Randy "Duke" Cunningham,
after his and Willie's F-4 took a missile hit over NVN and he dashed
for the coast.
"A MiG at your six is better than no MiG at all." Anonymous US
fighter pilot.
James Linn
>hhutc...@cornell-iowa.edu wrote:
>
>
>> I still will make one BLANKET assertion: "Duke" Cunningham
>>is THE hottest stick that has ever SERVED in the Congress.
>>
>probably would give you a good argument. Marine, Medal of Honor, etc.
>etc.....
>
>
And though he distinguished himself in a different arena, John Glenn
wasn't so bad either. Among them he certainly has the speed record.
I beleive his troubled rentry was probably as slick a piece of piloting
as has been witnessed.
James Linn
Jeff Crowell
: "Turn to kill, not to engage." CDR Willie Driscoll, USN
truer words were never spoken.
(welcome back, Mary! Now get to work, and clear that backlog!)
Personally, my favorite aviation quote is:
"Fighter pilots make movies. Attack pilots make shitty movies."
but I can't remember who said it. And don't believe those mudmovers
who try to talk about history, either. Without the air-to-air stuff,
I'll tell ya who's history...
8-)
Jeff
--
###################################################################
# #
# Jeff Crowell | | #
# jc...@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com | _ | #
# _________|__( )__|_________ #
# DMD Process Engineer x/ _| |( . )| |_ \x #
# (208) 396-6525 x |_| ---*|_| x #
# O x x O #
# #
###################################################################
Rule number 19 of gunfights:
When the cops arrive, think fast and move slow.
Matt
> Roma Maxwell
>>> <Roma_M...@bbs.mmcs.com> writes >I want to put together a
>>> compendium of aviation related quotes.
>The 3 most useless things to an Air Force Bomber Pilot are-
>1. The sky above you.
>2. The runway behind you.
>3. A Field Grade Bombardier!
Last night on PBS - Frontline they had a show on the Gulf war.
They showed an interview with a pilot that just returned from
the first day of Desert Storm (I believe he was one of the
to return, or at least the first to return that was interviewed).
He was asked about his mission. And he replied (paraphased):
I thank God I'm alive.
I thank God for my skills.
I thank God I have a great woman.
I thank God I'm an American.
I thank God I'm an American Fighter Pilot!
If anyone could get me his name, and the exact wording I would
appreciate it.
Matt Steakley
Martin Sagara
:
: And though he distinguished himself in a different arena, John Glenn
: wasn't so bad either.
I gotta concur! And don't forget to mention that slick bow tie! ;^)
Martin Sagara "Never before have so many,
Research Associate understood so little,
Wings Over The Rockies Air and Space Museum about so much"
Hangar No. 1, Old Lowry AFB
Denver, Colorado USA James Burke speaking about
(303) 360-5360 technology in "Connections"
msa...@rmii.com
NATrainer
The North American Trainer Association is a (501)[c]3 association
dedicated to the restoration, preservation and safe flying of all North
American Aviation built trainer aircraft (AT-6, SNJ, Harvard, NA-64, T-28,
TF-51, TB-25). Dues are $40.00 per year USA and Canada, $50.00 all
others. "Texans & Trojans" is the quarterly publication of the
association. Membership is open to all.
Mary Shafer
Jeff> Nntp-Posting-Host: hpbs3354.boi.hp.com
Jeff> X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL0.9]
Jeff> Mary Shafer (sha...@ferhino.dfrc.nasa.gov) wrote, among other
Jeff> things:
Jeff> : "Turn to kill, not to engage." CDR Willie Driscoll, USN
Jeff> truer words were never spoken.
Jeff> (welcome back, Mary! Now get to work, and clear that backlog!)
Bleah. I'm incredibly undermotivated today. It'll get better; it
takes a while to turn a flight research organization back on. It's
not exactly a quick IPL from the front panel. (Shows you who grew up
with mainframes and what brand they were.)
I've got to go out to the PIRA and retrieve my ATLAS target lights.
After having a foot of snow drop on them, we want to look over the
electronics. That wasn't exactly the environment we designed the
boxes for, after all. Unfortunately the lakebed is a little damp
still, so I can't take the shortcut on the Santa Fe Trail, which is
about 6 miles. The longcut is about 35 miles. I've got too many
little bits of stuff to do to take a 4-hour chunk out of my day right
now.
I have to do this fairly soon, though, as my F-18 and F-16 VISTA
flights are now scheduled for the first week of March and I really
want to fly against my lights in them. So does the VISTA safety
pilot; he loves the task. Oh, well, nothing like personal motivation.
(I promise to inflict a end-to-end account of both flights on the
newsgroup, although I may park it on my web pages out of respect for
bandwidth.)
Jeff> Personally, my favorite aviation quote is:
Jeff> "Fighter pilots make movies. Attack pilots make shitty movies."
Jeff> but I can't remember who said it. And don't believe those
Jeff> mudmovers who try to talk about history, either. Without the
Jeff> air-to-air stuff, I'll tell ya who's history...
Yeah, my mudmover buds say that quote should be
"Fighter pilot make movies. Attack pilots make history."
But my Marine cousin says
"No aircraft ever took and held ground."
And an ex-Army Armored friend says
"It's not ours until a grunt is standing on it."
Regards,
Mary
Ed Rasimus
Chifuru Noda
Parachutists are good to the last drop
(saw a bumper sticker from a parachute school!)
Cheers
Chief
hhutc...@cornell-iowa.edu
> are genuinely impressed with Randy Cunningham.
> I bet it won't be what you expect.
Well, you know that the major requirement for fighter pilots
is an ego, and they all think they're the BEST.
Ed Rasimus
>I've talked to pilots about all this and it's a very common
>phenomenon. The audio channel is way overloaded and it's very easy to
>just close it down. I've sponsored, done, and am doing research on
>providing other types of information to the pilot--visual and tactile,
>with tactile, like stick shakers, being my current favorite. If we
>can offload the audio, particularly with aircraft status info, then
>maybe they won't shut it out. No more Bitchin' Betty has to be a real
>improvement.
It's nice to hear that someone is taking this problem seriously.
Unfortunately, that audio channel has been the dumping ground of
information with the assumption that unlike a visual stimulus, the
pilot doesn't have to "look" to hear.
OTOH, I don't like engineers messing with my flight controls. Don't
shake the stick unless you want to assume control!
I remember the APR 36/37 in SEA. The first few rides with new
backseaters, they would panic the first time they heard a "launch"
tone. It had become second nature to me, and I told one WSO, "don't
worry, that's just noise.. I'll tell you when we get a real launch."
It was quite clear to me that there was a difference in sequence and
tones. Shortly thereafter, the WSO heard the real thing.
We just don't get the opportunity to work with "real" enemy during
training, hence we don't get to develop that kind of discrimination.
Sandy Redding
Go to Miramar...ask around...see just how many pilots there are that
are genuinely impressed with Randy Cunningham.
I bet it won't be what you expect.
--
Sandy Redding
sred...@blues.chinalake.navy.mil
Paul Tomblin
>They showed an interview with a pilot that just returned from
>the first day of Desert Storm (I believe he was one of the
>to return, or at least the first to return that was interviewed).
Jet Jorgen, or something very close to that spelling.
--
Paul Tomblin, Contract Programmer.
I don't speak for Kodak, they don't speak for me.
(Email that is not work related should go to: ptom...@canoe.com)
"You are in a twisty maze of Motif Widget resources, all inconsistent."
Brian varine
I remember ROTFL on a post a while back where Mary Shafer said something
like
"Absolute safety is for those people without the balls to accept reality"
or something to that effect.
How about correcting me on this one?
Support Search and Rescue--GET LOST!--AFRES bumper sticker
On 11 Jan 1996, Michael Toler wrote:
> Sandy Redding (sred...@blues.chinalake.navy.mil) wrote:
> : "The only time a fighter has too much gas is when it's on fire."
> : CDR Tom Sobieck, VF-51, 1989
>
> My favorite:
> "Every F-4 takes off with two in flight emergencies:
> 1. It's on fire
> 2. It's low on fuel."
> - Anonomous (Navy) F-4 Pilot
>
> others:
> "A Mig on your six is better than no Mig at all."
> - Anonymous Air Force pilot.
>
>
> "A human being is the best computer available to place in a spacecraft.
> . . It is also the only one that can be mass produced with unskilled labor."
> -Werner Von Braun
>
> Joint Military Parliance:
> Direction | SNAFU = situation normal, all fouled up
> of | TARFU = things are really fouled up
> (Totally and Royally Fouled Up)
> Normal | JANFU = Joint Army-Navy Foul Up
> Flow | SAPFU = Surpassing All Previous Foul Ups
> | SUSFU = Situation Unchanged, Still Fouled Up
> V FUBAR = Fouled Up Beyond All Recognition
>
Ed Rasimus
It seldom is. Steve Richie gets mixed reviews in the AF, as do
DeBellvue and Jeff Feinstein. One who always got high marks, but fell
one kill short of ace, was John Madden. A genuine good guy.
But as for "sticks" in Congress, there have been others. Currently
John McCain gets my respect. Also look back at Jeremiah Denton. Both
put in some "hard time".
Ed Rasimus
>> Go to Miramar...ask around...see just how many pilots there are that
>> are genuinely impressed with Randy Cunningham.
>> I bet it won't be what you expect.
> Well, you know that the major requirement for fighter pilots
>is an ego, and they all think they're the BEST.
>--
Well, when you consider how many people try and how many people make
it, you've got to acknowledge that it is a pretty select group.
Start counting up the people who start an aviation conversation with,
"I applied for pilot training, but I......"
Keith Wood
mto...@bnr.ca (Michael Toler) wrote:
[FUBAR = Fouled Up Beyond All Recognition
I learned it as "Beyond All Recovery" and "Redemption" (depending on the
circumstances).
[
[--
[Michael "Ouch" Toler | Don Gaspard Du Lac
[Dallas, Texas | Barrony of the Steppes, Ansteorra
[Check out my new Web page (CK) at:
[http://connect.net/ouch/ouch.shtml
--
===============================================================
Keith Wood TV-18 News anchor
Host/Producer, The Computer Program, FLYING TIME!, and Infinity Focus.
Gunsite (Orange) alumnus, Team OS/2, Parrothead, N7JUZ, AZ0237 but not a
number (I'm a FREE MAN!), creator of FIRE TEAM and HERO SEEKER
===============================================================
Ed Rasimus
>
>
>> Jeff> Personally, my favorite aviation quote is:
>>
>> Jeff> "Fighter pilots make movies. Attack pilots make shitty movies."
>>
>> Jeff> but I can't remember who said it. And don't believe those
>> Jeff> mudmovers who try to talk about history, either. Without the
>> Jeff> air-to-air stuff, I'll tell ya who's history...
>>
Actually, "Air-to-air is something a fighter pilot does on his way to
and from the target!"
It's my favorite aviation quote--I said it.
Erik Shilling
Ceiling and visibility obscured by darkness.
Paul Jonathan Adam
> Start counting up the people who start an aviation conversation with,
> "I applied for pilot training, but I......"
What, there are people who even got as far as applying? The RAF careers
office took one look at my Coke-bottle-bottom glasses and smiled sadly... :(
--
"When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him." <R.A. Lafferty>
Paul J. Adam pa...@jrwlynch.demon.co.uk
Chris Jones
thu...@rmii.com (Ed Rasimus) wrote:
>hhutc...@cornell-iowa.edu wrote:
>
>> I still will make one BLANKET assertion: "Duke" Cunningham
>>is THE hottest stick that has ever SERVED in the Congress.
>>
>I suppose that Joe Foss didn't count? The folks from S. Dakota
>probably would give you a good argument. Marine, Medal of Honor, etc.
>etc.....
>
And though he distinguished himself in a different arena, John Glenn
wasn't so bad either. Among them he certainly has the speed record.
I beleive his troubled rentry was probably as slick a piece of piloting
as has been witnessed.
Well, this is wandering away from hot pilots in Congress to hot piloting among
the astronauts, but I'd have to say Gordo Cooper's reentry on Faith 7 was much
more of a piloting job than Glenn's. Glenn (literally) had to sweat out
wondering if his heat shield was loose, but the "flying" wasn't too special.
Cooper had a near total electrical system failure to contend with, and flew the
whole thing manually.
Pete Knight landing an X-15 after a complete power failure during ascent was
pretty slick, too.
--
Chris Jones c...@bbn.com
Terra Corp.
: Well, you know that the major requirement for fighter pilots
: is an ego, and they all think they're the BEST.
As they say: "You can always tell a fighter pilot. You just can't tell
him much."
Gerry
--
Gerry Caron "Opinions are mine, not my employer's."
gca...@rt66.com PH: 800-328-1995 or 505-884-2321
Terra Corp. ABQ FAX: 505-884-2384
Jeff Crowell
: Go to Miramar...ask around...see just how many pilots there are that
: are genuinely impressed with Randy Cunningham.
: I bet it won't be what you expect.
Heh heh heh. That's 'cuz just about every fighter jock is a cocky,
extremely confident, opinionated sort that probably figures he coulda
done Randy one better by not getting shot down after smoking three
MiGs.
It's the nature of the beast, that's all. Don't read a lot into it.
Jeff
--
###################################################################
# #
# Jeff Crowell | | #
# jc...@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com | _ | #
# _________|__( )__|_________ #
# DMD Process Engineer x/ _| |( . )| |_ \x #
# (208) 396-6525 x |_| ---*|_| x #
# O x x O #
# #
###################################################################
There's one thing to be said for ignorance--it starts a lot of arguments.
N. Bradford-Reid
> Jeff> Personally, my favorite aviation quote is:
>
> Jeff> "Fighter pilots make movies. Attack pilots make shitty movies."
>
> Jeff> but I can't remember who said it. And don't believe those
> Jeff> mudmovers who try to talk about history, either. Without the
> Jeff> air-to-air stuff, I'll tell ya who's history...
>
Jeffy--how could you?
> Yeah, my mudmover buds say that quote should be
>
> "Fighter pilot make movies. Attack pilots make history."
That's the real quote--and truer words never were!
How about:
"An F-4, proof that even a brick can fly if you put a big enough engine on
it; and the F-4 took two!"
Attribution unknown.
Tex
____________________
...Navy Wings are made of Gold...
_____________________________________________________________________
|N. Bradford-Reid |"If you want to inspire confidence, |
|Department of English |*give plenty of statistics*. It |
|The University of Texas |does not matter that they should be |
|n.b-...@mail.utexas.edu |accurate, or even intelligible, so |
| |long as there is enough of them." |
| | Lewis Carroll |
____________________________________________________________________
Stuart Grant
>I've talked to pilots about all this and it's a very common
>phenomenon. The audio channel is way overloaded and it's very easy to
>just close it down. I've sponsored, done, and am doing research on
>providing other types of information to the pilot--visual and tactile,
>with tactile, like stick shakers, being my current favorite. If we
>can offload the audio, particularly with aircraft status info, then
>maybe they won't shut it out. No more Bitchin' Betty has to be a real
>improvement.
Overloading with auditory information is obviously a bad thing, and I
agree that steps should be taken to avoid it. I wonder, though, how
far you can go with a stick shaker. An on/off state is the most that
is currently done with stick-shakers, no? I recall reading of studies
on the use of tactile information to communicate among artillery gun
crews. Each man was wired up with electrodes that delivered low voltage
so that the experience was that of a tingle or twinge, rather than
shock. The project was not pursued due to the problems with sweating,
low bandwidth, and the superiority of hand signals. The same
approach, however, might be useful in the cockpit.
Also, it might be profitable to consider refinement of the auditory
information. True 3D sound might go some way towards alleviating the
overload while at the same time giving you spatial information
almost for free.
Just a couple thoughts.
Stuart
Kevin Renshaw
shoot down any enemy fighters in that area. Anything else is rubbish!"
Manfred von Richtofen
Quote refers to why Richtofen would not let members of his Staffel
strafe troops in the trenches.
Kevin Renshaw
Albert Sykes
Tallyho !
Alpha Kilo
Or else you'll end up ditching !
Wayne Johnson
>How about:
>"An F-4, proof that even a brick can fly if you put a big enough engine on
>it; and the F-4 took two!"
>Attribution unknown.
Watching too much late-night TV again.
That one was out of "Red Flag", a pretty good movie about the
exercise, made back in the early 80's, I think.
Wayne Johnson
cia...@ix.netcom.com
Wayne Johnson
>Actually, "Air-to-air is something a fighter pilot does on his way to
>and from the target!"
>It's my favorite aviation quote--I said it.
Yeah, while driving his '63 Caddy, and laughing like hell. I was
there. It was the only warning I got. He was reaching for the bomb
release handle when I bailed out.
Wayne "then the Jack-in-the-Box we were driving through turned into a
fireball" Johnson
cia...@ix.netcom.com
William Miniscalco
(Bomber Bill) wrote:
>
> Fine, I will make an even more concrete blanket assertion: Duke Cunningham
> is one of the worst legislators that has ever served in the Congress. His
> rant in the well of the House brought shame upon this country that his
> valorious service can never repair. Evidently he believes in defending
> the theory of freedom and not its practice.
>
> And besides, the airframe and weapons system capability gap in the Viet
> Nam war was much greater than in Korea or during the bulk of air combat in
> WWII. A number of pilots from those wars served in Congress, John Glenn
> being the obvious example. Flying against almost the same generation of
> fUSSR interceptors (MiG 15/17s vs. MiG 17/19s), in a much less capable jet
> (Panther vs. Phantom)--and without a WSO--he put up a hell of a combat
> record. I'd take Glenn over Cunningham in an argument, and there's no
> doubt he's been a better, more honorable legislator.
Didn't Cunningham get into a fight in the House recently? I heard
something on the news a month or two ago, but couldn't find any details
other than that the other participant apologized.
--Bill
Harold Hutchison
> something on the news a month or two ago, but couldn't find any details
> other than that the other participant apologized.
hot under the collar and accused Moran of turning his back on the
troops in Desert Storm, and Moran proceeded to force Cunningham into a
fight. Duke's pretty protective of the troops, in the same league as
Bob Dornan, and it came from his experience in Vietnam. The man's
determined not to let it happen again, and went to Congress to make
sure of it. Fighter jocks ain't the best personalties for the
Washington environment, I'll grant that, btu Cunningham and Dornan
BOTH are trying to get the troops the stuff they need in dealing with
an administration that, IMHO, doesn't give a rat's ass for them.
Bomber Bill
wrote:
> I still will make one BLANKET assertion: "Duke" Cunningham
> is THE hottest stick that has ever SERVED in the Congress.
Fine, I will make an even more concrete blanket assertion: Duke Cunningham
Jayne Shoreham
(Harold Hutchison) writes:
>
>> Didn't Cunningham get into a fight in the House recently? I heard
>> something on the news a month or two ago, but couldn't find any
details
>> other than that the other participant apologized.
> Yeah. Jim Moran was slamming at the Republicans and Duke got
>hot under the collar and accused Moran of turning his back on the
>troops
Moran is the ex-Mayor of Alexandria, VA, elected by the Civil Service
Government Employees in his District. His only purpose is to protect
their interests and thus be re-elected, a loud-mouth Liberal, similar
to Steny Hoyer, D-MD, complete obstructionists to progress.
Sandy Redding
>
> : Sandy Redding (sred...@blues.chinalake.navy.mil) wrote:
> : Go to Miramar...ask around...see just how many pilots there are that
> : are genuinely impressed with Randy Cunningham.
>
> : I bet it won't be what you expect.
>
> Heh heh heh. That's 'cuz just about every fighter jock is a cocky,
> extremely confident, opinionated sort that probably figures he coulda
> done Randy one better by not getting shot down after smoking three
> MiGs.
>
> It's the nature of the beast, that's all. Don't read a lot into it.
>
> Jeff
>
around seemed to respect each other...at least.
sr
Jayne Shoreham
Miniscalco) writes:
>
>In article <dfab-15019...@sac3-137.calweb.com>,
df...@nukulator.net
>(Bomber Bill) wrote:
>>
Cunningham
>> is one of the worst legislators that has ever served in the
Congress.
>
>> being the obvious example.
Have you ever heard of Henry B. Gonzalez, or David Bonior, or Major
Owens? Now there are 3 pieces of work!
> I'd take Glenn over Cunningham in an argument, and there's no
>> doubt he's been a better, more honorable legislator.
There is quite a bit of doubt in the minds of Republicans, Glenn is
a Liberal blow-hard.
>Didn't Cunningham get into a fight in the House recently?
It was a pushing contest, instigated by a disgruntled Democrat.
> I heard
>something on the news a month or two ago, but couldn't find any
details other than that the other participant apologized.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>--Bill
He did apologize to Rep. Cunnuingham, and I rest my case.
Paul Tomblin x31515
hhutc...@cornell-iowa.edu (Harold Hutchison) writes:
>Washington environment, I'll grant that, btu Cunningham and Dornan
>BOTH are trying to get the troops the stuff they need in dealing with
>an administration that, IMHO, doesn't give a rat's ass for them.
As opposed to Congress, which would rather fund another 20 B-2s that nobody
wants instead of providing the money to upgrade those slums they call base
housing these days.
Sandy Redding
>
> In article <1996Jan...@cornell-iowa.edu>, hhutc...@cornell-iowa.edu
> wrote:
>
> > I still will make one BLANKET assertion: "Duke" Cunningham
> > is THE hottest stick that has ever SERVED in the Congress.
>
> rant in the well of the House brought shame upon this country that his
> valorious service can never repair. Evidently he believes in defending
> the theory of freedom and not its practice.
>
> And besides, the airframe and weapons system capability gap in the Viet
> Nam war was much greater than in Korea or during the bulk of air combat in
> WWII. A number of pilots from those wars served in Congress, John Glenn
> being the obvious example. Flying against almost the same generation of
> fUSSR interceptors (MiG 15/17s vs. MiG 17/19s), in a much less capable jet
> (Panther vs. Phantom)--and without a WSO--he put up a hell of a combat
> doubt he's been a better, more honorable legislator.
WELL SAID!!!
sr
Mary Shafer
Brian> I remember ROTFL on a post a while back where Mary Shafer said
Brian> something like
Brian> "Absolute safety is for those people without the balls to
Brian> accept reality" or something to that effect.
Brian> How about correcting me on this one?
I wrote, "Insisting on absolute safety is for people who don't have
the balls to live in the real world."
It appeared on sci.space or sci.space.shuttle in 1989 or 1990 during
one of the cyclical "why did NASA blow up the shuttle" threads or on
rec.military during a "how dare those pilots crash the taxpayers'
airplanes" thread, also a cyclical thread. I had gotten to a point of
complete exasperation when I wrote this.
Here's the whole thing:
But, no matter what you do, it will never be perfectly, 100% risk-free
to fly. Or to drive, or to walk, or to do anything.
One of our pilots here died when he waited too long to eject from a
spinning aircraft. He was wrong; he should have jumped out earlier.
He failed in his duty, IMO.
One of our engineers was walking his dog when a car driven by a kid
jumped the curb and hit him. Only his leg was broken. But he walks
his dog again, now. Who know better than him the danger?
There's no way to make life perfectly safe; you can't get out of it alive.
You can't even predict every danger. How can you guard against a hazard
you can't even conceive of?
I agree that the days of "kick the tires and light the fires" are gone,
but insisting on perfect safety is the single most reliable way of
killing an aerospace project.
I've been on both sides of the FRR (Flight Readiness Review) process
for a number of aeronautical projects. Experienced engineers try to
think of everything that can go wrong. But airplanes can still
surprise the best team.
I've had to sign a form, certifying that to the best of my knowledge
everything that we're going to do on a flight is safe. I've never
seriously asked myself "What will I say to the AIB (Accident
Investigation Board)" because once one starts on that, the form will
never be signed, the flight will never be flown, and the research will
never be done.
But I have asked myself "Have I told everybody exactly what we're
going to do and what the _known_ risks are and are we agreed that
these risks are acceptable" and when I can answer that "yes" I sign
the form. That also answers the question of what I'd say to the AIB.
I'm not talking about abstract theories here, I'm talking about test
pilots that I've known for decades. Believe me, I _know_ exactly what
the consequences of a mistake on my part could mean. The reminders
are all around me: Edwards AFB--killed in the XB-49, Lilly
Ave--first NASA pilot killed at what's now Dryden, Love Rd--I _saw_
Mike's burning F-4 auger into the lakebed, with him in it. But once
I've done my best, like everybody else on the team, it's time to go
fly the airplane.
Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to
live in the real world.
--
Mary Shafer NASA Dryden Flight Research Center, Edwards, CA
SR-71 Flying Qualities Lead Engineer Of course I don't speak for NASA
sha...@ferhino.dfrc.nasa.gov DoD #362 KotFR
URL http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/People/Shafer/mary.html
Mary Shafer
GC> As they say: "You can always tell a fighter pilot. You just can't
GC> tell him much."
Or "You can tell a fighter pilot a mile away, but you can't tell him
anything up close".
Mary Shafer
SG> In article <SHAFER.96J...@ferhino.dfrf.nasa.gov>,
>I've talked to pilots about all this and it's a very common
>phenomenon. The audio channel is way overloaded and it's very easy
>to just close it down. I've sponsored, done, and am doing research
>on providing other types of information to the pilot--visual and
>tactile, with tactile, like stick shakers, being my current favorite.
>If we can offload the audio, particularly with aircraft status info,
>then maybe they won't shut it out. No more Bitchin' Betty has to be
>a real improvement.
SG> Overloading with auditory information is obviously a bad thing,
SG> and I agree that steps should be taken to avoid it. I wonder,
SG> though, how far you can go with a stick shaker. An on/off state
SG> is the most that is currently done with stick-shakers, no? I
SG> recall reading of studies on the use of tactile information to
SG> communicate among artillery gun crews. Each man was wired up with
SG> electrodes that delivered low voltage so that the experience was
SG> that of a tingle or twinge, rather than shock. The project was
SG> not pursued due to the problems with sweating, low bandwidth, and
SG> the superiority of hand signals. The same approach, however,
SG> might be useful in the cockpit.
Don't read too much into my mention of stick shakers--I was just
looking for a commonly-known example.
What I'm going to test next month in Buffalo is an adaptively
rate-limited stick. In 1994 I looked at rate-limited, low-frequency,
and highly-damped sticks, all three of which did a good job of
eliminating PIO caused by rate-limited control surfaces, but were
greatly disliked by the pilots.
So I did the funding tap dance and managed to come up with the
resources to look at this version of it. I'll let you all know what
we find out. I'm predicting a) the pilots will either love it or hate
it, but nothing in between, b) it will reduce PIOs, and c) the PIO
suppression filter we invented for the Space Shuttle and also tested
in two F-8 DFBW and one NT-33A study may work almost as well.
I should warn you, however, that I was testing another hypothesis in
the previous experiment (the various sticks were just flown very
briefly to see what would happen), that it mattered whether you used a
force stick or a position stick with the rate-limiting reduction
algorithm, and discovered, to my modest embarassment, that I was
absolutely wrong. It didn't matter one bit. I should mention, in
mitigation, that the Cooper-Harper ratings and pilot performance was
consistant between the various types of stick (center and side, force
and position) but they did fly very differently with the center
position stick from how they flew with the other three.
SG> Also, it might be profitable to consider refinement of the
SG> auditory information. True 3D sound might go some way towards
SG> alleviating the overload while at the same time giving you spatial
SG> information almost for free.
I had a PhD candidate working on that--we have a computer called a
Convolvotron that can do that for us. We're going to look into
setting it up for the flight conductor initially, going to an aircraft
eventually if the results look promising. Unfortunately, my student
decided to leave school, but the university has promised to send a
replacement, so I still hope to try it.
Jayne Shoreham
varine <var...@ece.orst.edu> writes:
>
>
>
>>
>>
>> Paul Tomblin wrote:
>> : >As opposed to Congress, which would rather fund another 20 B-2s
that
>> : >nobody wants instead of providing the money to upgrade those
slums
>> : >they call base housing these days.
>>
>> : Why waste more Taxpayer's funds? These slums were created by the
>> : animals and slobs that live there. When they moved in they were
>> : habitable, clean and desireable places to live.
>
>Obviously you have no experience of these. Most servicemembers live in
>these do not "Trash" them .
I'm very sorry, when I read Tomblin's initial note I assumed
automatically he was talking about Housing/Urban Development Projects
in the U.S. Cities.
Never would denigrate the Active Duty Military and their treatment of
on-base Housing.
Please excuse my impetuous mistake.
Jeff Crowell
: >Jeff Crowell wrote:
: > Heh heh heh. That's 'cuz just about every fighter jock is a cocky,
: > extremely confident, opinionated sort that probably figures he coulda
: > done Randy one better by not getting shot down after smoking three
: > MiGs.
: Sandy Redding (sred...@blues.chinalake.navy.mil) wrote:
: I would tend to agree...except most fighter pilots I have been
: around seemed to respect each other...at least.
This is true, but I always suspected a bit of professional jealousy was
at work with Duke. I was at Miramar while he was in the area, and a lot
of guys grumbled about Randy's 'MIG ACE' license plate. Hell, if
it'd'a been me, I'd have written it on the side of my car!
Damn right he could be obnoxious, but no more so than a lot of other
jocks...
Jeff
--
###################################################################
# #
# Jeff Crowell | | #
# jc...@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com | _ | #
# _________|__( )__|_________ #
# DMD Process Engineer x/ _| |( . )| |_ \x #
# (208) 396-6525 x |_| ---*|_| x #
# O x x O #
# #
###################################################################
Hey, paranoids have enemies, too.
Paul Tomblin x31515
shbj...@ix.netcom.com(Jayne Shoreham ) writes:
>In <4dgeqc$8...@kodak.rdcs.Kodak.COM> tom...@apollo.ekfido.kodak.com
>(Paul Tomblin x31515) writes:
>>As opposed to Congress, which would rather fund another 20 B-2s that
>nobody
>>wants instead of providing the money to upgrade those slums they call
>base
>>housing these days.
>
>animals and slobs that live there. When they moved in they were
>handouts haven't worked, why continue a specious practice?
>
Since when has providing decent base housing to military dependents been
"social handouts"? I'm talking about base housing, as in the housing on and
around military bases for military personell. Most of those houses have been
inhabited by a succession of military families as people have been reassigned
or left the military and other families have been posted to the area. Many of
them are now in such rotten shape that I wouldn't put a crack house in them.
I have no idea what you're talking about, but I seriously doubt it has any
bearing on the issue.
Jayne Shoreham
sha...@ferhino.dfrc.nasa.gov (Mary Shafer) writes:
>
>
>
>The funny thing is that I know someone who shot down seven MiGs (dual
>citizenship US and Israel, flew in the IAF) and he's the nicest and
>most unassuming guy you'd ever meet. Of course, I didn't meet him
>until he'd retired, so I don't know what he was like when he was
>younger, but leopards rarely change their spots.
>
>--
>Mary Shafer NASA Dryden Flight Research Center, Edwards,
Mary- I thought Fighter Jocks were TIGERS, rather than Leopards?
Jeff Crowell
Paul Tomblin wrote:
: >As opposed to Congress, which would rather fund another 20 B-2s that
: >nobody wants instead of providing the money to upgrade those slums
: >they call base housing these days.
to which Jayne Shoreham (shbj...@ix.netcom.com) replied:
: Why waste more Taxpayer's funds? These slums were created by the
: animals and slobs that live there. When they moved in they were
: habitable, clean and desireable places to live.
Umm, can I assume Jayne's talking about slums other than base housing
slums? The rest of her post would suggest it (the '40 years of social
handouts' part suggests it)
A lot of the base housing I have been around is so bloody old (and not
well maintained) that 'slum' comes to mind, even if a bit of
exaggeration. I suspect base housing maintenance funds often were
shorted to break loose money for other areas, but look at any 20-30
year old house...
Jeff
--
###################################################################
# #
# Jeff Crowell | | #
# jc...@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com | _ | #
# _________|__( )__|_________ #
# DMD Process Engineer x/ _| |( . )| |_ \x #
# (208) 396-6525 x |_| ---*|_| x #
# O x x O #
# #
###################################################################
You have to go out. You don't have to come back.
U.S. Coast Guard slogan
Mary Shafer
JC> This is true, but I always suspected a bit of professional
JC> jealousy was at work with Duke. I was at Miramar while he was in
JC> the area, and a lot of guys grumbled about Randy's 'MIG ACE'
JC> license plate. Hell, if it'd'a been me, I'd have written it on
JC> the side of my car!
JC> Damn right he could be obnoxious, but no more so than a lot of
JC> other jocks...
The funny thing is that I know someone who shot down seven MiGs (dual
citizenship US and Israel, flew in the IAF) and he's the nicest and
most unassuming guy you'd ever meet. Of course, I didn't meet him
until he'd retired, so I don't know what he was like when he was
younger, but leopards rarely change their spots.
--
Brian varine
>
>
> Paul Tomblin wrote:
> : >As opposed to Congress, which would rather fund another 20 B-2s that
> : >nobody wants instead of providing the money to upgrade those slums
> : >they call base housing these days.
>
> to which Jayne Shoreham (shbj...@ix.netcom.com) replied:
> : Why waste more Taxpayer's funds? These slums were created by the
> : animals and slobs that live there. When they moved in they were
> : habitable, clean and desireable places to live.
Obviously you have no experience of these. Most servicemembers live in
these do not "Trash" them . Over the years things do break or get worn
down. the problem is the Military never fixes anything and does minimal
maintanence.
As for they Navy they don't do crap and force single sailors to live on
the boat, a truly crappy place altogether. Anyone thats been on any ship
can tell you berthing areas suck. No hot water frequently, crappy
ventilation, noisy ventilation, no space for much of anything.
Compared base housing or enlisted barracks, dorms here would be a luxury
room in the Navy. The number one reason I left was because of having to
live on a ship. The Navy's answer to that is "Get married". No thanks.
Brian Burke
>In <4dgeqc$8...@kodak.rdcs.Kodak.COM> tom...@apollo.ekfido.kodak.com
>(Paul Tomblin x31515) writes:
>>As opposed to Congress, which would rather fund another 20 B-2s that
>nobody
>>wants instead of providing the money to upgrade those slums they call
>base
>>housing these days.
>
>Why waste more Taxpayer's funds? These slums were created by the
>animals and slobs that live there. When they moved in they were
>handouts haven't worked, why continue a specious practice?
I could be wrong, but referring to members of the military who live in
base housing as animals and slobs who for years have been recipients of
social handouts, might be construed as slightly insulting in some
quarters. Perhaps you misread the previous post.
BB
Wayne Johnson
>(Paul Tomblin x31515) writes:
>>
>>In article <1996Jan1...@cornell-iowa.edu>,
>>hhutc...@cornell-iowa.edu (Harold Hutchison) writes:
>>>Washington environment, I'll grant that, btu Cunningham and Dornan
>>>BOTH are trying to get the troops the stuff they need in dealing with
>>>an administration that, IMHO, doesn't give a rat's ass for them.
>>
>>As opposed to Congress, which would rather fund another 20 B-2s that
>nobody
>>wants instead of providing the money to upgrade those slums they call
>base
>>housing these days.
>>Paul Tomblin, Contract Programmer.
>Why waste more Taxpayer's funds? These slums were created by the
>animals and slobs that live there. When they moved in they were
>habitable, clean and desireable places to live. 40 years of social
>handouts haven't worked, why continue a specious practice?
You're so busy riding a political hobby horse, you may not have
noticed that Paul was referring to MILITARY BASE housing.
You are calling America's service personnel animals and slobs, in your
anxious rush to call America's poor and minorities animals and slobs.
This is an aviation newsgroup, dedicated to military aviation issues,
and not your arch conservative knee jerk soapbox.
Quit asking damnfool questions, and get on board with some airplane
talk, or else take this crap to the Limbaugh fan group where everybody
applauds on cue like trained seals. Insulting American service
personnel is bad enough, but your flavor of ignorance is truly bad -
you can't understand a clearly written post.
Wayne Johnson
cia...@ix.netcom.com
Wayne Johnson
>There is quite a bit of doubt in the minds of Republicans, Glenn is
>a Liberal blow-hard.
Glenn is an honorable man, a fighter pilot, and astronaut.
Party politics is for the pinhead political shouting match groups.
There are plenty of Republicans who will tell you that men like John
Glenn, John Kerry, and Daniel Inouye have the right stuff to be proud
Americans, not "blow-hards".
Take this crap back where your political cannibal friends can head-nod
all day over your cheap shots. When you know how to show respect to
someone who's paid the price, and uses his right to speak honorably,
maybe you can show your face again.
Or just talk about aircraft, if you can read the header without moving
your lips.
Sheesh
Wayne Johnson
cia...@ix.netcom.com
keebird
> Note: Duke had notched three MiGs that day, including Colonel
>Tomb, who had downed 17 planes and made the mistake of trying to make
>"Duke" #18. He got a Sidewinder up the tail for that and became an
>object lesson.
I thought Tomb had 13 kills, or was it 13 American kills?
Keebird