Greatest anime of all time
The Jackal
Matt
"The Jackal" <fag...@planttel.net> wrote in message
news:a494si$c73k$1...@news3.infoave.net...
> Send in a reply telling me what YOU think is the greatest anime of all
time
Expect a wide range of answers to this one from people, as it varies by
personal opinion.
For my sake, I'm going to split this into 2 categories. "Greatest anime
(animation)" and "Greatest Anime (Plot)"
The "Plot" one is easy for me. Evangelion! This series, by far, has one of
the most mind-twisting plots in anime history, right up there alongside
"Serial Experiments: Lain". And with EoE coming out this Summer, it'll get
even more confusing. :)
"Animation" for me is a 3-way tie....I just can't decide. Akira was ahead
of it's time for anime in 1988, "Mononoke" is well drawn out, and the older
Kenshin OAVs (since there's the new one out now in Japan) uses the animation
beautifully to set the dark tones of the story.
-Matt
Arnold Kim
time
I'll split mine into three categories.
OAV:
Gunbuster
TV Series:
Evangelion/Cowboy Bebop (tie)
Movie:
Grave of the Fireflies
Arnold Kim
Fish Eye no Miko
news:a494si$c73k$1...@news3.infoave.net...
> Send in a reply telling me what YOU think is the greatest anime of all
time
No such thing. Everyone has different tastes, and different shows have
different purposes, and have different levels of success at those purposes.
For example, I could argue that, imo, Mahou Tsukai Tai! is a better anime
than Eva, since it succeeds at its purpose--to be funny--better than Eva
does at its--to say something meaningful. I found MTT! funny, while I just
find a lot of Eva confusing and pretentious. I also like the characters a
lot better, which always makes a show easier for me to watch.
Catherine Johnson.
--
dis "able" to reply
"I will take the Ring to Mordor, though I do not know the way."
-Frodo Baggins, _The Fellowship of the Ring_.
Andrew Hollingbury
time
>
>
My FAVOURITE anime, that I've seen all of, would be Vision of Escaflowne.
(joint with the as-yet unfinished Earth Girl Arjuna so far...)
I doubt it's the greatest.
Andrew H
8-Bit Star
The Jackal wrote:
> Send in a reply telling me what YOU think is the greatest anime of all time
Damn that's a hard one....
.... Since I'm into it right now, I'll say Robotech.
8-Bit Star
Fish Eye no Miko wrote:
> "The Jackal" <fag...@planttel.net> wrote in message
> news:a494si$c73k$1...@news3.infoave.net...
>
> > Send in a reply telling me what YOU think is the greatest anime of all
> time
>
> No such thing. Everyone has different tastes, and different shows have
> different purposes, and have different levels of success at those purposes.
> For example, I could argue that, imo, Mahou Tsukai Tai! is a better anime
> than Eva, since it succeeds at its purpose--to be funny--better than Eva
> does at its--to say something meaningful. I found MTT! funny, while I just
> find a lot of Eva confusing and pretentious. I also like the characters a
> lot better, which always makes a show easier for me to watch.
Well, he did ask what *YOU Think* is the greatest anime of all time, not
"What *is* the greatest?"
Galen Musbach
<fag...@planttel.net> wrote:
>Send in a reply telling me what YOU think is the greatest anime of all time
>
MD Geist 2.
Skeleton Man
time
>
>
Almost impossible, but I'm going to have to say....
Please Save My Earth!
--
Skeleton Man
http://users.lvcm.com/artfx
The SHADOWSKIN is COMING!!
Isaac Kuo
The Legend of the Galactic Heroes (Ginga Eiyuu Densetsu)
In terms of thought provoking plot and sheer scale, it's far beyond
everything else.
It's also the most stupendously long series originally to video,
with the nearest competition an entire order of magnitude shorter!
Isaac Kuo
Ethan Hammond
>
> Send in a reply telling me what YOU think is the greatest anime of all time
Nuku Nuku OAV series and the greatest manga is Bastard!
Here is the favorites of Ethan also know as he who possess the knowledge and the wisdom:
1. Nuku Nuku - the OAV series and the manga
2. Urusei Yatsura
3. Slayers
4. Tylor
5. Bastard! - For the manga is superior to the anime.
6. Dragonball Z - Although once again the manga is superior.
7. Maho Tsukai Tai - Need to see TV series.
8. Ghost Sweeper Mikami/Ayane's High Kick
--
All Purpose Cultural Randomness
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/apcr/index.html
Frank Raymond Michaels
<fag...@planttel.net> wrote:
>Send in a reply telling me what YOU think is the greatest anime of all time
What I think is the greatest anime of all time is probably
_Cowboy Bebop_ - it's got something for everyone, runs across genres
and is accessible to people who are not anime or animation fans.
----------
FRM
King Arthur
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Shazam72
Ashez2ashes
One Piece.
It's everything I like in an anime, deep and likable characters,
enganging plot, good animation, humor, meaniful moments, and uh...it's
unique and original.
Unless there's another series out there about a pirate guy who can
stretch like that dude from the fantastic four, who looks like he
wandered out of deliverence. hee hee.
K. A. Pezzano
<a.holl...@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
>My FAVOURITE anime, that I've seen all of, would be Vision of Escaflowne.
>
I'm with ya there. It's my favorite too.
But the best anime ever made, EVER, is Wings of Honneamise.
Kevin
deep within the bowels of aohell
I don't have a dought.
Evangelion
And I'm including OVA's and movies. I think Eva is the best because it is so
honest about the way that people REALLY are. That is why Eva is still so
talked about. People care about the characters SO much and can relate to them
on such a basic human level. They are not perfect, they have their flaws and
they hide their pain. Most people take Eva very seriously and have great
respect for the show. The mysteries in the show make it even better, in my
opinion. It is "layered". I hope that makes sense. The way in which they
incroparated the religious lore and psychological references is very
interesting and engrossing. Some people say it is to confusing but I like to
watch something that you will be thinking about later. That was what they were
aiming for anyway. It's the same thing when you see a good piece of art, or
hear beautiful music. In my opinion, Eva is art because it has that ablity to
stir the soul.
-
Alan
"Your wife's on the phone again."
"Tell her I exploded, and it was very sad, and that
the last thing I said was for her to move out of my apartment." - Space Ghost,
SGC2C
"Whatever happens.. happens." - Spike, CowboyBeBop
White Flame (aka David Holz)
time
Macross 7 all the way!
PmChivas
Well, this hard on so many levels. If the anime in question keeps me
entertained all the way through then it was successful, but if not,
like Evangelion, then the show missed its point. But, if I were to say
an anime that I totally enjoyed all aspects from I'd go with: Vision
of Escaflowne. I think the only anime series that I enjoyed the movie
and the ending, without being left with a "Huh?" look on my face.
PmChivas
deep within the bowels of aohell
>different purposes, and have different levels of success at those purposes.
>For example, I could argue that, imo, Mahou Tsukai Tai! is a better anime
>than Eva, since it succeeds at its purpose--to be funny--better than Eva
>does at its--to say something meaningful. I found MTT! funny, while I just
>find a lot of Eva confusing and pretentious. I also like the characters a
>lot better, which always makes a show easier for me to watch.
I understand what you are saying and you could break it up into best drama,
comedy, etc. But I have to disagree that Eva doesn't fully succeed at it's
purpose. I think that it does very well. The thing that I wonder.. Do you
know what Eva is trying to say? I'm not criticizing you, I'm just wondering
what you think it is trying to say. At the end I think it's pretty clear.
-
Alan
"Hey Mister, this here's the stairway to heaven. You know that don't cha'?"
"Obnoxious little frog." - Spike, Cowboy BeBop
Frank Wustner
> Send in a reply telling me what YOU think is the greatest anime of all time
I've run through a few of these. My opinions keep changing whenever I
find a new one. At the moment, my choice is definately Ruroni Kenshin.
--
The Deadly Nightshade
http://deadly_nightshade.tripod.com/
http://members.tripod.com/~deadly_nightshade/
|-----------------------------------|
| "Never say 'bite me' to Shishio |
| Makoto." |
|-----------------------------------|
| Want to email me? Go to the URL |
| above and email me from there. |
|-----------------------------------|
Frank Wustner
> "The Jackal" <fag...@planttel.net> wrote:
> > Send in a reply telling me what YOU think is the greatest anime of all time
> No such thing.
Not objectively, no. But Jackal is asking for what we think, which is a
much different matter.
Jens Baumann
(NB: I am only talking about series here, I have not seen too many
movies yet).
I have to differentiate between series which simply entertained me
really well and series which influenced me on an emotional level, i.e.
those series of which I really think that I actually *cared* for what
happened on screen, and where what I saw really made me happy/sad.
As for pure entertainment value, I think it's a tie between Ranma 1/2,
Cowboy Bebop and Slayers. Ranma and Slayers are very well done (not too
good on the technical side, but extremely funny and with totally whacky
ideas), while Cowboy Bebop is technically very well done and has a
certain "feel" to it that I have not encountered in other series yet.
The series which influenced me the most, though, is Maison Ikkoku.
Storywise it's a masterpiece and the development of the characters is
presented so well that you *really* feel with them. Too bad Viz are
killing the series by not releasing it on DVD (or at all, no matter
whether VHS or DVD).
Michael Wignall
time
It changes depending on my mood, generally though I
have to say Evangelion, it is a little dated now, but you
did say "of all time".
--
Michael Wignall
"Arguing with anonymous strangers on the Internet is a sucker's
game because they almost always turn out to be - or to be
indistinguishable from - self-righteous sixteen- year olds possessing
infinite amounts of free time." --Neal Stephenson, Cryptonomicon
Fish Eye no Miko
news:see-sig-8FF64A...@news.mindspring.com...
> "Fish Eye no Miko" <cath...@feablenm.net> wrote:
> > "The Jackal" <fag...@planttel.net> wrote:
>
> > > Send in a reply telling me what YOU think is the greatest anime of
> > > all time
> >
> > No such thing.
>
> Not objectively, no. But Jackal is asking for what we think, which is a
> much different matter.
Even then it's hard to say. How do you define great? Can you really
compare a two hour movie, which has to develop its characters and its plot
in that time, to a series, which has a longer time to do both, or should
they be considered separately? Not to mention the unfairness of comparing
(for example) comedies to dramas, which are trying to accomplish two
entirely different things. And what about comparing new anime, which have
better technology at their disposal, as well as the history of previous
anime to draw on, to older shows that have cruder animation and are
starting "on the ground floor" as it where.
I don't believe there IS one "greatest" anime, even from a subjective
standpoint.
Catherine Johnson.
--
dis "able" to reply
Right now you are reading my .sig quote.
Wanka
Number 1 of all time.
MACROSS (ORIGINAL TV SERIES)
Killer plotline, great animation, fantastic characters, unique designs, a
good degree of realism. Its all there, all the elements of a great anime
story
Arbane the Terrible
>>Send in a reply telling me what YOU think is the greatest anime of all
>>time
>>
> MD Geist 2.
I see the backbone connection to Bizarro World is working again.
Thud, how can I narrow it down to ONE? Top ten maybe, but just one is
absurd.
Giant Robo
Escaflowne
Utena
Berserk
Kiki's Delivery Service
That'll do for a start...
--
"Remember, the plural of 'moron' is 'focus group'."
-- James A. Wolf
ZoqFotPik
> It changes depending on my mood, generally though I
> have to say Evangelion, it is a little dated now, but you
> did say "of all time".
While everyone is certainly entitled to their opinions, I am somewhat
surprised by how mauch praise Evangelion is recieving in this thread.
While I enjoyed the tone of the series, the action, and the
performances of the characters, the series was so jumbled and
incoherent that I find it dificult to praise too highly.
Personally, Berzerk and Utena would be my picks for best anime, with
Escaflowne trailing just slightly behind. Maybe it they'd had just a
bit more time to flesh out some of those things they squeezed in at
the end...
Blade
> > Send in a reply telling me what YOU think is the greatest anime of all time
> Storywise it's a masterpiece and the development of the characters is
> presented so well that you *really* feel with them. Too bad Viz are
> killing the series by not releasing it on DVD (or at all, no matter
> whether VHS or DVD).
Yes they are. You just have to order it direct from them.
And incidentally, my picks would be Lain and Utena, not necessarily in
that order.
Blade
*******
Also Known As: Chris McNeil, The Annoying Jerk, The Enemy of Democracy,
"That Guy That Can't Write A Lunch Menu Without Pantyhose Tarou Being In
It Somewhere"
All web pages, except my Evil Zone one, down
till further notice. Bleahh. >_<
"Oh, come on. Being printed "in English" is no reason to choose a
particular spelling. If it were, we'd all be saying "Captain Herlock.""
- Trish Ledoux on the Ah!/Oh My Goddess controversy, 14/09/93
White Flame (aka David Holz)
news:3937a132.02021...@posting.google.com...
> While everyone is certainly entitled to their opinions, I am somewhat
> surprised by how mauch praise Evangelion is recieving in this thread.
> While I enjoyed the tone of the series, the action, and the
> performances of the characters, the series was so jumbled and
> incoherent that I find it dificult to praise too highly.
The jumble and incoherence is exactly why it was so good: It made you watch
it over and over again, each time gaining a little more understanding of
what was going on. I think the pacing and execution of the plot points was
simply genius.
Kirei
even think properly with those... (For example, is Trigun a comedy TV series or
a drama TV series?)
I guess I'm just gonna have to give my top four, which are (in no particular
order)
Cowboy Bebop
Utena
Trigun
Sailor Moon Sailor Stars
Why? To start with, Bebop is just an incredibly well put-together series. The
animation is consistently stunning, and while there's no real plot, almost
every episode has something to interest me. The characters are great, and the
only thing I found lacking was Spike's ending, really. I wish they'd filled out
a little more about his past. Otherwise, I thought it was overall a beautiful
series.
Utena, of course, did not have the Bebop budget, but what it lacks in animation
quality it makes up for in depth and story about a billion times over. I have
-never- found a series this complex. I've been on the Utena newsgroup for over
half a year now and even with some really deep discussions I'm still not
resolved on a lot of issues -- and I like that.
Trigun is a mind-warp for a different reason. I liked the first few episodes,
thought they were pretty cool, knew I liked the series at the beginning, but I
had no idea what I was in for. Episode 5 really grabbed me, and episode 12 made
damn sure I was going to watch the rest of the series. Again, I found the end a
little disappointing, a little unresolved, and Knives could have been more
complex like he is in the manga, but overall, a good series.
Sailormoon just remains a classic for me. It's the first series I got into, and
unlike my other "old favourites" -- Fushigi Yuugi, YuYu Hakusho, Gundam Wing --
I can still think fondly on it, and I can still watch it, and not be bored at
all. Stars is by far the best season in the show, which is why I listed is
specifically.
Kirei
AFU no Scandalous Video
Miki's Prince
UtenaCode(1.0) U:6 F:Hi++SP+++:pBR D:To->Ak--:pOA X:*:a39[AM]+ M:f"Rinbu
Revolution," "Toki ni Ai Wa," "Last Evolution"d"Fuuin Jubaku"
Wai wai!
Arnold Kim
Fish Eye no Miko <cath...@feablenm.net> wrote in message
news:Ib5a8.8024$zb.4...@news1.east.cox.net...
> "Frank Wustner" <see...@for.email.org> wrote in message
> news:see-sig-8FF64A...@news.mindspring.com...
>
> > "Fish Eye no Miko" <cath...@feablenm.net> wrote:
> > > "The Jackal" <fag...@planttel.net> wrote:
> >
> > > > Send in a reply telling me what YOU think is the greatest anime of
> > > > all time
> > >
> > > No such thing.
> >
> > Not objectively, no. But Jackal is asking for what we think, which is a
> > much different matter.
>
> Even then it's hard to say. How do you define great? Can you really
Great can be defined as the series/movie that left the best impression on
you. Rather vague, I know, but the question itself isn't much different
than asking what's your favorite anime.
> compare a two hour movie, which has to develop its characters and its plot
> in that time, to a series, which has a longer time to do both, or should
> they be considered separately?
Well, that's what I did.
> Not to mention the unfairness of comparing
> (for example) comedies to dramas, which are trying to accomplish two
> entirely different things.
I don't think it's that hard- you just look at what each anime is trying to
do, and judge how well it does it. A great comedy should be just as good as
a great drama.
> And what about comparing new anime, which have
> better technology at their disposal, as well as the history of previous
> anime to draw on, to older shows that have cruder animation and are
> starting "on the ground floor" as it where.
I think good movies and anime are able to overcome technical deficiencies.
I'd think that most independent films are as good or maybe better than their
more expensive Hollywood counterparts.
> I don't believe there IS one "greatest" anime, even from a subjective
> standpoint.
Well, from _your_ subjective standpoint. :P
Arnold Kim
Fish Eye no Miko
message news:a4c0v7$js7$1...@barad-dur.nas.com...
> "ZoqFotPik" <zoqf...@donotreply.com> wrote in message
> news:3937a132.02021...@posting.google.com...
>
> > While everyone is certainly entitled to their opinions, I am somewhat
> > surprised by how mauch praise Evangelion is recieving in this thread.
> > While I enjoyed the tone of the series, the action, and the
> > performances of the characters, the series was so jumbled and
> > incoherent that I find it dificult to praise too highly.
>
> The jumble and incoherence is exactly why it was so good: It made you
> watch it over and over again,
Not necessarily. I rented it, and found its incomprehensibility
off-putting. I've made no real attempt to try and watch it twice. Its
style can just as easily repel as attract.
Catherine Johnson.
--
dis "able" to reply
The Ol Poop
Movie - Nausicaa
Series - Lain
--------------------------------
Anyone who thinks evil mutants
are only in comic books hasn't
raised any children!
Frank Wustner
> > "Fish Eye no Miko" <cath...@feablenm.net> wrote:
> > > "The Jackal" <fag...@planttel.net> wrote:
> > > > Send in a reply telling me what YOU think is the greatest anime of
> > > > all time
> > > No such thing.
> > Not objectively, no. But Jackal is asking for what we think, which is a
> > much different matter.
> Even then it's hard to say. How do you define great?
Easy: you define it however you want to. Since this is a completely
subjective question, it is all about how *you* feel. It is all up to you
how you define "great", what comparisons to make, or whatever.
Myself, I *have* compared tv series to movies to OVAs, because there is
only ever one in particular that I like best. It used to be Mononoke
Hime. Then it was Outlaw Star. Then it was Captain Tylor. Now it is
Rurouni Kenshin.
Don't ask me to justify any of this. This is simply whatever I like best
at any particular time, and has no other justification.
paranormalized
<cath...@feablenm.net> wrote:
*snip snip*
>I don't believe there IS one "greatest" anime, even from a subjective
>standpoint.
>
>Catherine Johnson.
Ethan proves you wrong, and has been doing so for years. ;P
Now, if *you* don't have a 'greatest' anime, that could be a different
matter.
Jonathan Fisher
Who abstains w/ an "I haven't finished Utena yet"
------
Paranormalized man, Sub-normalized otaku....
To email, change proprietary to free, org to com.
Jens Baumann
> > killing the series by not releasing it on DVD (or at all, no matter
> > whether VHS or DVD).
> Yes they are. You just have to order it direct from them.
Look closely. They thought about offering it on DVD, but at this point
it seems they won't. And the VHS tapes they offer only go as far as tape
18 (at two episodes each, at a ridiculous price) of 96 episodes in
total, i.e. you can only buy as far as episode 36 of 96 from them. And
that's it. So they are in fact killing the series, since they hold the
US rights but simply don't sell the whole series. Your only way of
getting hold of the whole series with english subtitles at all is buying
HK bootleg DVDs.
Jens Baumann
> it seems they won't. And the VHS tapes they offer only go as far as tape
> 18 (at two episodes each, at a ridiculous price) of 96 episodes in
> total, i.e. you can only buy as far as episode 36 of 96 from them.
I failed to mention that they *won't* be offering any further
dubbed/subbed VHS tapes, i.e. this is as far as it goes.
Michael Wignall
news:UCga8.220$co3....@news1.east.cox.net...
> "White Flame (aka David Holz)" <whitef...@y.a.h.o.o.com> wrote in
> message news:a4c0v7$js7$1...@barad-dur.nas.com...
> > "ZoqFotPik" <zoqf...@donotreply.com> wrote in message
> > news:3937a132.02021...@posting.google.com...
> > The jumble and incoherence is exactly why it was so good:
> > It made you watch it over and over again,
>
> Not necessarily. I rented it, and found its incomprehensibility
> off-putting. I've made no real attempt to try and watch it twice.
> Its style can just as easily repel as attract.
I think it is obvious, even from just this thread, that it attracts
far more readily than it repels.
Ethan Hammond
>
> On Tue, 12 Feb 2002 09:24:56 GMT, "Fish Eye no Miko"
> <cath...@feablenm.net> wrote:
>
> *snip snip*
> >I don't believe there IS one "greatest" anime, even from a subjective
> >standpoint.
> >
> >Catherine Johnson.
>
> Ethan proves you wrong, and has been doing so for years. ;P
I started posting here in 4/97 and have kept up the vigilance ever since. *Thumbs up*
> Now, if *you* don't have a 'greatest' anime, that could be a different
> matter.
You would think everyone would have one.
--
All Purpose Cultural Randomness
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/apcr/index.html
ZoqFotPik
> The jumble and incoherence is exactly why it was so good: It made you watch
> it over and over again, each time gaining a little more understanding of
> what was going on.
There is nothing to understand. After repeated viewings, you may
formulate your own theories about various aspects of the storyline,
but there are many thing that are not resolved or fully explained
within the actual series.
Fish Eye no Miko
news:fb2k6usa0f744a9lj...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 12 Feb 2002 09:24:56 GMT, "Fish Eye no Miko"
> <cath...@feablenm.net> wrote:
>
> *snip snip*
> >I don't believe there IS one "greatest" anime, even from a subjective
> >standpoint.
>
> Ethan proves you wrong, and has been doing so for years. ;P
Ethan can take his opinions and shove 'em up his ass.
> Now, if *you* don't have a 'greatest' anime, that could be a
> different matter.
No, I don't.
Catherine Johnson.
--
dis "able" to reply
ALL HAIL BRAK!
Fish Eye no Miko
> "Fish Eye no Miko" <cath...@feablenm.net> wrote in message
> news:UCga8.220$co3....@news1.east.cox.net...
> > "White Flame (aka David Holz)" <whitef...@y.a.h.o.o.com>
> > wrote in message news:a4c0v7$js7$1...@barad-dur.nas.com...
> >
> > > The jumble and incoherence is exactly why it was so good:
> > > It made you watch it over and over again,
> >
> > Not necessarily. I rented it, and found its incomprehensibility
> > off-putting. I've made no real attempt to try and watch it twice.
> > Its style can just as easily repel as attract.
>
> I think it is obvious, even from just this thread, that it attracts
> far more readily than it repels.
I don't think you can say any such thing. I'll bet if we did a "Worst
anime series", a lot of people might vote for Eva. Just because people are
saying it's great in this thread doesn't mean just as many people don't
think it's awful, or just ok. Personally, I don't hate it, but I don't
think it's the end all, be all of anime, either.
Catherine Johnson.
--
dis "able" to reply
ALL HAIL BRAK!
Sea Wasp
>
> "Michael Wignall" <wi...@evangelion.com> wrote in message
> news:lxpa8.18107$N31.9...@ozemail.com.au..
>
> > news:UCga8.220$co3....@news1.east.cox.net..
> > > wrote in message news:a4c0v7$js7$1...@barad-dur.nas.com..
> > >
> > > > It made you watch it over and over again,
> > >
> > > Not necessarily. I rented it, and found its incomprehensibility
> > > off-putting. I've made no real attempt to try and watch it twice.
> > > Its style can just as easily repel as attract.
> >
> > I think it is obvious, even from just this thread, that it attracts
> > far more readily than it repels.
>
> I don't think you can say any such thing. I'll bet if we did a "Worst
> anime series", a lot of people might vote for Eva.
I'd sure think about it. There are a lot of bad anime out there, but
Evanjellydonut certainly is major candidate for ultrasuckitude, if
only for the fact that it's not only bad, but it's got so much
positive press.
. Personally, I don't hate it, but I don't
> think it's the end all, be all of anime, either.
No, that would be Patalliro!
--
Sea Wasp http://www.wizvax.net/seawasp/index.htm
/^\
;;; _Morgantown: The Jason Wood Chronicles_, at
http://www.hyperbooks.com/catalog/20040.html
Arnold Kim
Sea Wasp <sea...@wizvax.net> wrote in message
news:3C6ACA...@wizvax.net...
> I'd sure think about it. There are a lot of bad anime out there, but
> Evanjellydonut certainly is major candidate for ultrasuckitude, if
> only for the fact that it's not only bad, but it's got so much
> positive press.
I fail to see how other people liking it makes it even worse.
Arnold Kim
Arnold Kim
Fish Eye no Miko <cath...@feablenm.net> wrote in message
news:v0za8.3087$SJ3.1...@news1.east.cox.net...
> "paranormalized" <jfi...@proprietarymail.clarksville.org> wrote in
message
> news:fb2k6usa0f744a9lj...@4ax.com...
>
> > On Tue, 12 Feb 2002 09:24:56 GMT, "Fish Eye no Miko"
> > <cath...@feablenm.net> wrote:
> >
> > *snip snip*
> > >I don't believe there IS one "greatest" anime, even from a subjective
> > >standpoint.
> >
> > Ethan proves you wrong, and has been doing so for years. ;P
>
> Ethan can take his opinions and shove 'em up his ass.
Whoah, chill out. It's just a joke- he's saying there is a "greatest"
anime, from _a_ subjective standpoint, that particular standpoint being
Ethan's. :)
Arnold Kim
Fish Eye no Miko
news:a4eink$7n9$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
> Fish Eye no Miko <cath...@feablenm.net> wrote in message
> news:v0za8.3087$SJ3.1...@news1.east.cox.net...
> > "paranormalized" <jfi...@proprietarymail.clarksville.org> wrote
> > im message news:fb2k6usa0f744a9lj...@4ax.com...
> >
> > > Ethan proves you wrong, and has been doing so for years. ;P
> >
> > Ethan can take his opinions and shove 'em up his ass.
>
> Whoah, chill out. It's just a joke- he's saying there is a "greatest"
> anime, from _a_ subjective standpoint, that particular standpoint being
> Ethan's. :)
It's not just this thread I'm referring to (see the "macho" thread). And
if he referred to his opinions as such, instead of (jokingly, I realize,
but still rather annoyingly so) acting like they're the Unquestionable
Truth, I could live with it.
Catherine Johnson.
--
dis "able" to reply
Chris Lisle
wrote:
It seems to me that this happens a whole lot especially with the likes
of Evangelion and Bebop. I suppose it's something to with the fact
that they've both been analysed to death. But then they've both got
good and bad points...and everyone should know that's *not* allowed to
happen.
Chris
Fish Eye no Miko
It's not just their *liking* it, it's their trumpeting its virtues all the
time. I know what he means... I actually like Elvis less than I probably
would if so many people didn't act like he was the Second Coming or
something...
Catherine Johnson.
--
dis "able" to reply
Arnold Kim
> "Arnold Kim" <ki...@erols.com> wrote in message
> news:a4eiia$79u$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
>
> > Sea Wasp <sea...@wizvax.net> wrote in message
> > news:3C6ACA...@wizvax.net...
> >
> > > I'd sure think about it. There are a lot of bad anime out there, but
> > > Evanjellydonut certainly is major candidate for ultrasuckitude, if
> > > only for the fact that it's not only bad, but it's got so much
> > > positive press.
> >
> > I fail to see how other people liking it makes it even worse.
>
> It's not just their *liking* it, it's their trumpeting its virtues all the
> time. I know what he means... I actually like Elvis less than I probably
> would if so many people didn't act like he was the Second Coming or
> something...
Yeah, but it shouldn't be that way. It's ridiculous to base your opinion on
something partly on what other people think.
Your opinion of a work should be able to stand up on its own.
Arnold Kim
Sea Wasp
> > Evanjellydonut certainly is major candidate for ultrasuckitude, if
> > only for the fact that it's not only bad, but it's got so much
> > positive press.
>
> I fail to see how other people liking it makes it even worse.
The same way that Elvis and the Beatles, whom I would otherwise have
seen as an okay rocker who did good gospel music and a rather dull if
historically interesting band, respectively, awaken active loathing
and detestation in me.
When you hear unending choruses of how WONDERFUL, etc., something is,
and hear its faint virtues being praised like unto the very Work of
God, you come to detest it and all it stands for.
Fish Eye no Miko
> Fish Eye no Miko <cath...@feablenm.net> wrote in message
> news:cHAa8.3119$SJ3.1...@news1.east.cox.net...
> > "Arnold Kim" <ki...@erols.com> wrote in message
> > news:a4eiia$79u$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
> > > Sea Wasp <sea...@wizvax.net> wrote in message
> > > news:3C6ACA...@wizvax.net...
> > >
> > > > I'd sure think about it. There are a lot of bad anime out there,
but
> > > > Evanjellydonut certainly is major candidate for ultrasuckitude, if
> > > > only for the fact that it's not only bad, but it's got so much
> > > > positive press.
> > >
> > > I fail to see how other people liking it makes it even worse.
> >
> > It's not just their *liking* it, it's their trumpeting its virtues all
the
> > time. I know what he means... I actually like Elvis less than I
probably
> > would if so many people didn't act like he was the Second Coming or
> > something...
>
> Yeah, but it shouldn't be that way.
But it is.
> It's ridiculous to base your opinion on something partly on what other
> people think.
It's NOT about what they think, it's the fact that people go on and on (and
on and on and on) about it, and other people get sick of hearing about it.
Catherine Johnson.
--
dis "able" to reply
"This is Precious Roy, and you kids better pay for that lap dance!"
_Precious Roy, _Sifl & Olly_.
Nargun
No, not at all; there's lots of other ways.
It's worth noting that a copy of a HK bootleg is exactly as legal as the
HK bootleg itself, and a damn sight cheaper.
Louis
--
Louis Patterson l.patt...@ugrad.unimelb.edu.au
"If you are asked to pass the butter, always remember to pass
the plate as well" - Lennie Lower, "Etiquette without tears"
Arnold Kim
> > It's ridiculous to base your opinion on something partly on what other
> > people think.
>
> It's NOT about what they think, it's the fact that people go on and on
(and
> on and on and on) about it, and other people get sick of hearing about it.
Still, I think one should try to keep one's opinion on the work itself
separate from the hype.
Arnold Kim
Ethan Hammond
>
> Fish Eye no Miko <cath...@feablenm.net> wrote in message
> news:v0za8.3087$SJ3.1...@news1.east.cox.net..
> message
> > news:fb2k6usa0f744a9lj...@4ax.com..
> >
> > > <cath...@feablenm.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > *snip snip*
> > > >I don't believe there IS one "greatest" anime, even from a subjective
> > > >standpoint.
> > >
> > > Ethan proves you wrong, and has been doing so for years. ;P
> >
> > Ethan can take his opinions and shove 'em up his ass.
>
> Whoah, chill out. It's just a joke- he's saying there is a "greatest"
> anime, from _a_ subjective standpoint, that particular standpoint being
> Ethan's. :)
You ease my pain.
Ethan Hammond
>
> news:fb2k6usa0f744a9lj...@4ax.com..
>
> > <cath...@feablenm.net> wrote:
> >
> > *snip snip*
> > >I don't believe there IS one "greatest" anime, even from a subjective
> > >standpoint.
> >
> > Ethan proves you wrong, and has been doing so for years. ;P
>
> Ethan can take his opinions and shove 'em up his ass.
Thats not nice and totally unwarranted!!!!
> > Now, if *you* don't have a 'greatest' anime, that could be a
> > different matter.
>
> No, I don't.
What?
Ethan Hammond
>
> > news:v0za8.3087$SJ3.1...@news1.east.cox.net..
> > > im message news:fb2k6usa0f744a9lj...@4ax.com..
> > >
> > >
> > > Ethan can take his opinions and shove 'em up his ass.
> >
> > Whoah, chill out. It's just a joke- he's saying there is a "greatest"
> > anime, from _a_ subjective standpoint, that particular standpoint being
> > Ethan's. :)
>
> It's not just this thread I'm referring to (see the "macho" thread). And
> if he referred to his opinions as such, instead of (jokingly, I realize,
> but still rather annoyingly so) acting like they're the Unquestionable
> Truth, I could live with it.
Are you making the mistake of taking me overly seriously? Silly Catherine chan.
*BEARHUGGLE*
Michael Wignall
And that is part of the point.
"Evangelion is like a puzzle, you know. Any person can see it
and give his/her own answer. In other words, we're offering
viewers to think by themselves, so that each person can imagine
his/her own world. We will never offer the answers, even in the
theatrical version. As for many Evangelion viewers, they may
expect us to provide the 'all-about Eva' manuals, but there is no
such thing. Don't expect to get answers by someone. Don't expect
to be catered to all the time. We all have to find our own answers."
- Anno Hideaki -PA #43, translated by Miyako Graham from
11/96 Newtype
Eva was created like that intentional. If you don't like that, then
that is fine, it is your prerogative, however it doesn't make Eva
inherently bad, in fact I think that is part of what makes it great.
Michael Wignall
> "Michael Wignall" <wi...@evangelion.com> wrote in message
> news:lxpa8.18107$N31.9...@ozemail.com.au...
> > "Fish Eye no Miko" <cath...@feablenm.net> wrote in message
> > news:UCga8.220$co3....@news1.east.cox.net...
> > >
> > > off-putting. I've made no real attempt to try and watch it twice.
> > > Its style can just as easily repel as attract.
> >
> > I think it is obvious, even from just this thread, that it attracts
> > far more readily than it repels.
>
> I don't think you can say any such thing.
I can and did. Note the "even from _just_ this thread", this thread
and the number of people who called Eva their greatest of all time
is just an example. There are many, many others which I think
show quite clearly that Eva attracts far more people than it repels.
> I'll bet if we did a "Worst anime series", a lot of people might
> vote for Eva.
Sure they might, but I doubt it would be even close to the number
who rate it as the best.
> Just because people are saying it's great in this thread doesn't
> mean just as many people don't think it's awful, or just ok.
I am not talking about "just ok", and neither were you originally.
You said it can repel as easily as it attracts. I disagree with that
statement. I think the majority by far (and again this is not just
evidenced by the response in this thread) are attracted to
Eva over being repelled by it.
> Personally, I don't hate it, but I don't think it's the end all,
> be all of anime, either.
Neither do I. I think it is a fantastic series, and as I said initially
it is _my_ favourite, but there are a lot of other great series
out there as well.You sound resentful because a lot of people
find it great, and you don't, at least that is the impression I get.
You don't have to think it is a great series, I am certainly not
asking you to, but please try to accept that a lot of other people
do see something in it.
Fish Eye no Miko
news:3C6B15...@worldnet.att.net...
> Fish Eye no Miko wrote:
> > "paranormalized" <jfi...@proprietarymail.clarksville.org> wrote
> > in message news:fb2k6usa0f744a9lj...@4ax.com..
> > > On Tue, 12 Feb 2002 09:24:56 GMT, "Fish Eye no Miko"
> > > <cath...@feablenm.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > *snip snip*
> > > >I don't believe there IS one "greatest" anime, even from a
subjective
> > > >standpoint.
> > >
> > > Ethan proves you wrong, and has been doing so for years. ;P
> >
> > Ethan can take his opinions and shove 'em up his ass.
>
> Thats not nice and totally unwarranted!!!!
And paranormalized telling me that you've proved me wrong, and "has been
doing so for years" is perfectly ok?
> > > Now, if *you* don't have a 'greatest' anime, that could be a
> > > different matter.
> >
> > No, I don't.
>
> What?
Have a greatest anime.
Catherine Johnson.
--
dis "able" to reply
Right now you are reading my .sig quote.
Ethan Hammond
>
> And paranormalized telling me that you've proved me wrong, and "has been
> doing so for years" is perfectly ok?
Well since it was all a joke the answer is yes.
Fish Eye no Miko
> > > Thats not nice and totally unwarranted!!!!
> >
> > And paranormalized telling me that you've proved me wrong, and "has
> > been doing so for years" is perfectly ok?
>
> Well since it was all a joke
Yeah, my sides are splitting, Pardon me for being offended by being told
I'm always wrong and your always right, even when it comes to opinions.
Catherine Johnson, who can usually take a joke, but not always.
--
dis "able" to reply
Ethan Hammond
>
> > >
> > > And paranormalized telling me that you've proved me wrong, and "has
> > > been doing so for years" is perfectly ok?
> >
> > Well since it was all a joke
>
> Yeah, my sides are splitting, Pardon me for being offended by being told
> I'm always wrong and your always right, even when it comes to opinions.
Thats taking what was said way too far.
> Catherine Johnson, who can usually take a joke, but not always.
There is nothing to be offended about in what was written:
">I don't believe there IS one "greatest" anime, even from a subjective
>standpoint.
Ethan proves you wrong, and has been doing so for years. ;P
Now, if *you* don't have a 'greatest' anime, that could be a different
matter."
So there you go. It even has the sticking out tongue sign so it is
obviously not a serious statement. Of course you still have yet to
see Nuku Nuku I do believe. Tee hee. ^_^
Blade
> > > presented so well that you *really* feel with them. Too bad Viz are
> > > killing the series by not releasing it on DVD (or at all, no matter
> > > whether VHS or DVD).
> > Yes they are. You just have to order it direct from them.
>
> Look closely. They thought about offering it on DVD, but at this point
> it seems they won't. And the VHS tapes they offer only go as far as tape
> 18 (at two episodes each, at a ridiculous price) of 96 episodes in
> total, i.e. you can only buy as far as episode 36 of 96 from them. And
> that's it. So they are in fact killing the series, since they hold the
> US rights but simply don't sell the whole series. Your only way of
> getting hold of the whole series with english subtitles at all is buying
> HK bootleg DVDs.
<sigh> Although I myself have had problems with Viz Video lately, this
just goes to show they don't get a fair shake from fandom.
Quoting from the Viz MI Website (http://series.viz.com/maison/):
"Please note: We are NOT canceling the video series. We will continue
releasing them as subtitled editions only. Distribution will continue
and is being worked out."
"Viz is currently in the process of reworking the Maison Ikkoku video
release process. We will provide more detailed information about how
fans can show support for Maison Ikkoku soon."
Until they say otherwise, the series is not cancelled. And since no
other company would waste their time on a proven money-loser (aside from
Animeigo, and we've never heard about THEM delaying releases, right?),
Viz is not "killing" the series at all. They are, in fact, trying their
damndest to bring it out.
Oh, and by the way, you can order up to volume 30 from their website.
So your excuse for buying bootlegs is pathetically thin.
Blade
*******
Also Known As: Chris McNeil, The Annoying Jerk, The Enemy of Democracy,
"That Guy That Can't Write A Lunch Menu Without Pantyhose Tarou Being In
It Somewhere"
All web pages, except my Evil Zone one, down
till further notice. Bleahh. >_<
"Oh, come on. Being printed "in English" is no reason to choose a
particular spelling. If it were, we'd all be saying "Captain Herlock.""
- Trish Ledoux on the Ah!/Oh My Goddess controversy, 14/09/93
ZoqFotPik
> And that is part of the point.
>
> "Evangelion is like a puzzle, you know. Any person can see it
> and give his/her own answer. In other words, we're offering
> viewers to think by themselves, so that each person can imagine
> his/her own world. We will never offer the answers, even in the
> theatrical version. As for many Evangelion viewers, they may
> expect us to provide the 'all-about Eva' manuals, but there is no
> such thing. Don't expect to get answers by someone. Don't expect
> to be catered to all the time. We all have to find our own answers."
>
> - Anno Hideaki -PA #43, translated by Miyako Graham from
> 11/96 Newtype
>
> Eva was created like that intentional. If you don't like that, then
> that is fine, it is your prerogative, however it doesn't make Eva
> inherently bad, in fact I think that is part of what makes it great.
Pure spin control. The bottom line is that Eva is a jumbled mess.
They knew the themes they wanted to convey, but where the story was
concerned they just couldn't make up their minds.
White Flame (aka David Holz)
> Pure spin control. The bottom line is that Eva is a jumbled mess.
> They knew the themes they wanted to convey, but where the story was
> concerned they just couldn't make up their minds.
There's a fine line between "abstract" and "jumbled mess". It's very
difficult to come up with a good abstract work, and Evangelion is one of the
few that pulled it off well. To those who don't like or don't get abstract
storytelling, where you draw your own conclusions instead of having it
explicitly laid out, yes, it would appear as a jumbled mess. But the flip
side of that coin is that if you've got the freedom to call Evangelion a
"jumbled mess", fans of abstract storytelling have the freedom to call
straightforward plots "mindless". :)
Blade
Slight overgeneralisation there. I like abstract storytelling, but I
still think Eva is a jumbled mess, because it has never seemed to be an
abstract work. It was a legitimate work that petered out into gibberish
because of lack of budget, overexposure, fanboy retardation, and Anno's
foibles.
This may or may not be the truth, or anyone else's opinion, but people
can dislike Evangelion without disliking abstract storytelling. Not
that I actually -dislike- Evangelion...I think it was a work that
deserved to be something better than what it eventually turned out to
be, but was not without virtues. I think the manga has thus far turned
out much better, though.
Frank Raymond Michaels
wrote:
I'm a big fan of Evangelion, but I have one huge problem with it,
which prevented me from listing it as one of the greatest: Shinji. I
can't stand the little twerp. Abstract story-telling aside, I just can
not get behind the protagonist. Also I found the mid-series "Monster
of The Week" stretch a bit tiresome.
That being said, I agree with Blade's overall assessment that it
deserved to be better than it was, and that the manga is doing justice
to the story and characters in ways the anime did not. There are
flashes of utter brilliance in Evangelion, and I would like to see
what Hideaki Anno and Gainax could do with their pick of writers and a
non-restrictive budget.
------
FRM
ZoqFotPik
> There's a fine line between "abstract" and "jumbled mess". It's very
> difficult to come up with a good abstract work, and Evangelion is one of the
> few that pulled it off well. To those who don't like or don't get abstract
> storytelling, where you draw your own conclusions instead of having it
> explicitly laid out, yes, it would appear as a jumbled mess. But the flip
> side of that coin is that if you've got the freedom to call Evangelion a
> "jumbled mess", fans of abstract storytelling have the freedom to call
> straightforward plots "mindless". :)
Contradictory exposition that raises unanswered questions that become
moot in the face of a largely inadequate conclusion is not the same
thing as "abstract storytelling".
Man...An Ancient Race
> Send in a reply telling me what YOU think is the greatest anime of all time
easy:
bubblegum crisis: futuristic mythology
laputa castle in the sky: soar into dreamworld
gunbuster: fascist babes
nausicaa: more gloom or light at end of the tunnel?
kimagure orange road ova: gaga over madoka
shonenbakushozan: absurd, hip, funny.
urusei yatsura only you: great slapstick fun.
ultimate teacher: crazy and brilliant
space adventure cobra: where anime female is a woman and not just a girl.
paranormalized
<cath...@feablenm.net> wrote:
>"Ethan Hammond" <esha...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
>news:3C6B15...@worldnet.att.net...
>
>> Fish Eye no Miko wrote:
>> > "paranormalized" <jfi...@proprietarymail.clarksville.org> wrote
>> > in message news:fb2k6usa0f744a9lj...@4ax.com..
>> > > On Tue, 12 Feb 2002 09:24:56 GMT, "Fish Eye no Miko"
>> > > <cath...@feablenm.net> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > *snip snip*
>> > > >I don't believe there IS one "greatest" anime, even from a
>subjective
>> > > >standpoint.
>> > >
>> > > Ethan proves you wrong, and has been doing so for years. ;P
>> >
>> > Ethan can take his opinions and shove 'em up his ass.
>>
>> Thats not nice and totally unwarranted!!!!
>
>And paranormalized telling me that you've proved me wrong, and "has been
>doing so for years" is perfectly ok?
>
Whoah. If you're going to get mad at someone, get mad at me. I'd
feel better about being chewed out than by starting a rift between
others.
Jonathan Fisher
------
Paranormalized man, Sub-normalized otaku....
To email, change proprietary to free, org to com.
Michael Wignall
> "White Flame \(aka David Holz\)" <whitef...@y.a.h.o.o.com> wrote in
message news:<a4hdvh$p1o$1...@barad-dur.nas.com>...
>
>
> Contradictory exposition that raises unanswered questions
> that become moot in the face of a largely inadequate
> conclusion is not the same thing as "abstract storytelling".
I don't think it did any of those things. There was nothing
contradictory, nothing that in my opinion was moot,
and I saw the conclusion as quite adequate. If you didn't
like it, or couldn't follow everything that was going on, then
that is fine, just don't take it out on the show itself. Just
because you didn't find the answers for yourself doesn't
mean they are not there.
Michael Wignall
> "Michael Wignall" <wi...@evangelion.com> wrote in message
news:<zEGa8.18470$N31.9...@ozemail.com.au>...
>
> >
> > Eva was created like that intentional. If you don't like that,
> > then that is fine, it is your prerogative, however it doesn't
> > make Eva inherently bad, in fact I think that is part of what
> > makes it great.
>
> Pure spin control.
In your opinion.
> The bottom line is that Eva is a jumbled mess.
Again in your opinion. I thought that it was quite clear.
> They knew the themes they wanted to convey, but where
> the story was concerned they just couldn't make up their
> minds.
What do you mean by "story". Though the basic plots for
each episode changed (sometimes radically) from their
original plans the same fundamental plot arc was shown
from beginning to end. With all the "unanswered questions".
If you didn't want to find those answers yourself then that
is up to you. That doesn't change the fact that Gainax is an
Otaku Studio and a large part of Eva is designed for Otaku.
There are far too many in-jokes and references, mysteries
and unanswered questions to count. You don't have to find
them if you don't want to, but that doesn't mean that as you
put it "There is nothing to understand."
Bob Macfie
Arnold Kim wrote:
> Still, I think one should try to keep one's opinion on the work
> itself separate from the hype.
True. However, it is also true that people will go out of
their way to put down something just because it is in some
fashion successful, especially if they are not partial to
it.
Note that I didn't say, "... if they disliked it." It is
enough that they didn't care for it to despise it for being
successful. Something to do with misconceptions about
natural selection, I think - the idea that there is only so
much room for ideas, and if you don't kill the ones you
thought weak, the ones *you* want to see succeed don't get
the audience "infected" by the weaker strain.
Bob Macfie
Mark Titunik
Fish Eye no Miko wrote:
> "The Jackal" <fag...@planttel.net> wrote in message
> news:a494si$c73k$1...@news3.infoave.net...
>
> > Send in a reply telling me what YOU think is the greatest anime of all
> time
>
> No such thing. Everyone has different tastes, and different shows have
> different purposes, and have different levels of success at those purposes.
> For example, I could argue that, imo, Mahou Tsukai Tai! is a better anime
> than Eva, since it succeeds at its purpose--to be funny--better than Eva
> does at its--to say something meaningful. I found MTT! funny, while I just
> find a lot of Eva confusing and pretentious. I also like the characters a
> lot better, which always makes a show easier for me to watch.
My thoughts exactly, and I also thought the way Sae got over her inferiority
complex was MUCH more compelling than the way Shinji got over his. That said,
MTT is my favorite anime because it fits my tastes perfectly, not because it is
the most amazing work of unbridled genius that has ever graced the world with
its presence. Everyone has different tastes, and I hate it when I'm told "you
WILL like this" by people who don't know my tastes.
Miaka-chan
> Send in a reply telling me what YOU think is the greatest anime of all time
We can all argue for years, but hands down the winner is and always
will be Urotsuki Doji.... I mean, it has everything. And it's such a
GREAT story!!!!
Just thought I'd put that in there for some lame humour...and I also
have nothing better to do.
Macross Plus definitely scores high in my books, probably because I am
amused by anything that looks pretty. Ranma 1/2, just because I'm
sticking to my anime roots... and I gotta go with Eva. I mean, just
the rumours behind Eva would make me think that it is definitely
something special.
Can't narrow it down to just one. Damn impossible. I'll just go on
and add Lain, Rurouni Kenshin, Fushigi Yuugi, Escaflowne, etc.
etc...too...much...
Don't ever ask something like that again. Starts wars. ^_^
Miaka-chan
~Anime version of School House Rocks? Eh? Eh?~
"I am not obsessed. I am exceedingly interested."
Disruptor
>
> Send in a reply telling me what YOU think is the greatest anime of all time
It was the first animated series for television and started animated
shows for children.
It might not hold up to today's standards, but it was the catalyst that
got it all started.
By extension Osamu Tezuka was the greatest anime/manga-ka of them all,
because it was his idea that started television anime.
Car-tunes(I did not mis-spell that) were for adults. They were animated
shorts before the main movie would be played in a drive-in theater.
Disney's animated shows like Snow White and Pinnochio were for the whole
family, but still a movie. Not for the small screen.
Funny. We call them cartoons, but there's no car involved.
--
Tom Mathews a.k.a. Disruptor
http://home1.gte.net/mathews1/
ZoqFotPik
> I don't think it did any of those things. There was nothing
> contradictory, nothing that in my opinion was moot,
> and I saw the conclusion as quite adequate. If you didn't
> like it, or couldn't follow everything that was going on, then
> that is fine, just don't take it out on the show itself. Just
> because you didn't find the answers for yourself doesn't
> mean they are not there.
They are not within the show itself, which is an indicator that it was
not well scripted. Furthermore, the various mysteries in the show,
such as the cause of the 2nd Impact and the nature of Adam, the
Angels, and the like, were given multiple and contradictory
explanations at various points in the show. The conclusion resolved
none of this, instead focusing entirely on Shiji's personal
revelations. I understand that ultimately that was intended as the
focus of the show, but even on that level they failed, as they devoted
so much time to giant robots and muddled conspiracies.
Michael Wignall
news:<KNnb8.19483$N31.9...@ozemail.com.au>...
>
> > I don't think it did any of those things. There was nothing
> > contradictory, nothing that in my opinion was moot,
> > and I saw the conclusion as quite adequate. If you didn't
> > like it, or couldn't follow everything that was going on, then
> > that is fine, just don't take it out on the show itself. Just
> > because you didn't find the answers for yourself doesn't
> > mean they are not there.
>
> They are not within the show itself, which is an indicator
> that it was not well scripted.
Or rather it was designed by Otaku for Otaku. There are
numerous in-jokes and references, stuff that you _need_
to do a little research on to get. Unless you are a big fan
of 60's SF, or religious mythology then you are just not
going to get a lot of the references first time through, you
need to do a little looking to find your own answers.
> Furthermore, the various mysteries in the show, such as
> the cause of the 2nd Impact and the nature of Adam, the
> Angels, and the like, were given multiple and contradictory
> explanations at various points in the show.
Wow you really did miss the point didn't you. There is a little
thing call misinformation. The general populus were told
that the Second Impact was a giant meteor impact, while
the actual truth was that it was caused by SEELE and
Adam. Misato is told by Kaji (who knew better) that the
being on the cross was Adam, when in fact we find out later
it was Lilith (even Kaoru was tricked by this). The "truth"
changes throughout Eva, depending on what information
they choose to give us.
> The conclusion resolved none of this, instead focusing
> entirely on Shiji's personal revelations.
Personally I don't need all my answers served to me
on a silver platter. The answers are there, you just have
to look for them.
> I understand that ultimately that was intended as the
> focus of the show, but even on that level they failed,
> as they devoted so much time to giant robots and
> muddled conspiracies.
I didn't think it failed at all and I don't think that one "level"
of Eva conflicted with another. If you were distracted by
"unanswered questions" then that is your problem, personally
I loved the original ending, I loved the conclusion, it gave
me everything I wanted (and some stuff I didn't even realise
I wanted).
Manbow Papa
There is a background story in NGE.
If you have ever seen a '70s surreal TV serial titled
"Prisoner"? It's a parody of secret agent films which
was one of the most popular genre at the time.
Like as "Prisoner", "Neon Genesis Evangelion" is
just a parody of big mecha shows especially
"Gundam" in which a lot of anime-otaku were
trying to find a good philosophy to guide them in
a right way to live in their real life. Director Anno
thought if they involved into that kind of mentality
so deeply, they would be suffered from an obsession
and lose their reality. Because Anno himself was
one of them. "New type" is just a fictitious term and
noone can be a new type in the real life.
By NGE, Anno merely tried to tell those otaku
don't be too serious about anime, go outside,
watch and feel the real world. "Jinrui hokan keikaku"
(The human reinforce plan) isn't anything but the
show itself. It's a meta contexual reference like
as "Never Ending Story".
A dream has no reasoning, no resolution, no sense
and, probably, no meaning.
--
/ Ishikawa Kazuo /
(Remove NoS for E-mailing)
Nargun
> "Michael Wignall" <wi...@evangelion.com> wrote in message news:<KNnb8.19483$N31.9...@ozemail.com.au>...
>
> > I don't think it did any of those things. There was nothing
> > contradictory, nothing that in my opinion was moot,
> > and I saw the conclusion as quite adequate. If you didn't
> > like it, or couldn't follow everything that was going on, then
> > that is fine, just don't take it out on the show itself. Just
> > because you didn't find the answers for yourself doesn't
> > mean they are not there.
>
> They are not within the show itself, which is an indicator that it was
> not well scripted.
> Furthermore, the various mysteries in the show, such as the cause of
> the 2nd Impact and the nature of Adam, the Angels, and the like, were
> given multiple and contradictory explanations at various points in the
> show.
People said multiple conflicting things about these things through the
show, which is not the same thing.
Why did you assume that they were all telling the truth?
Louis
--
Louis Patterson l.patt...@ugrad.unimelb.edu.au
"If you are asked to pass the butter, always remember to pass
the plate as well" - Lennie Lower, "Etiquette without tears"
Jens Baumann
>
> "Please note: We are NOT canceling the video series. We will continue
> releasing them as subtitled editions only. Distribution will continue
> and is being worked out."
Hm, and from Katsucon 8 (from somebody who was at the Viz booth):
---
Maison Ikkoku: Toshi wants to release a box set of all the episodes
(1-36, I believe) that have been dubbed so far (hybrid, of course), and
if they do well, they'll dub and release the rest.
---
Still, the series is ricidulously expensive at two episodes per $24.95
tape for a 96 episodes series (that would be about $1200 for the whole
series !) and the major point is that it will take *ages* for this '86
series to be available as a whole.
> Viz is not "killing" the series at all. They are, in fact, trying their
> damndest to bring it out.
I have not seen them actively advertising the series (the tapes, that
is) - and if they do not do that, nobody will *know* this gem of a
series, and so nobody will buy it, which will result in Viz stopping the
series for real (see all this "if it does well, we will ..." stuff). It
does not look to me as if they are really that interested in MI at all.
Compare to Ranma 1/2, for example. MI *needs* advertising to be a
success, since it is a pretty old series. People won't pay that much for
it - the bootlegs are selling pretty well, since that is what people
want: *all* episodes in one package for max $200, and subtitled (not
dubbed) would be enough (and far cheaper for Viz).
> Oh, and by the way, you can order up to volume 30 from their website.
> So your excuse for buying bootlegs is pathetically thin.
You know, there are 96 episodes. Some people really want to see the
second and last third of the series, too ... and most likely in *this*
life and *without* having to sell house, wife and car in order to be
able to pay for it ...
ZoqFotPik
> Or rather it was designed by Otaku for Otaku. There are
> numerous in-jokes and references, stuff that you _need_
> to do a little research on to get. Unless you are a big fan
> of 60's SF, or religious mythology then you are just not
> going to get a lot of the references first time through, you
> need to do a little looking to find your own answers.
No, major elements of the backstory such as the 2nd impact and the
nature of Adam and the angels were not the stuff of in-jokes and 60's
sci-fi references. Again, there are answers that are not within the
show itself, which is an indicator that it was not well scripted.
> Wow you really did miss the point didn't you. There is a little
> thing call misinformation. The general populus were told
> that the Second Impact was a giant meteor impact, while
> the actual truth was that it was caused by SEELE and
> Adam. Misato is told by Kaji (who knew better) that the
> being on the cross was Adam, when in fact we find out later
> it was Lilith (even Kaoru was tricked by this). The "truth"
> changes throughout Eva, depending on what information
> they choose to give us.
The "truth" changes throughout Eva, depending on what the writers
decided they wanted to happen at the time. There was no particular
consistancy or continuity to the series. Simply stating that what was
said before was not true when such a revelation is not forshadowed or
particularly significant is not good writing.
> Personally I don't need all my answers served to me
> on a silver platter. The answers are there, you just have
> to look for them.
And being forced to look outside the series itself for those answers
in an indication that it is poorly scripted.
> I didn't think it failed at all and I don't think that one "level"
> of Eva conflicted with another. If you were distracted by
> "unanswered questions" then that is your problem, personally
> I loved the original ending, I loved the conclusion, it gave
> me everything I wanted (and some stuff I didn't even realise
> I wanted).
Fair enough, but the simple fact is that it also left many things
unresolved.
ZoqFotPik
> There is a background story in NGE.
>
> If you have ever seen a '70s surreal TV serial titled
> "Prisoner"? It's a parody of secret agent films which
> was one of the most popular genre at the time.
>
> Like as "Prisoner", "Neon Genesis Evangelion" is
> just a parody of big mecha shows especially
> "Gundam" in which a lot of anime-otaku were
> trying to find a good philosophy to guide them in
> a right way to live in their real life. Director Anno
> thought if they involved into that kind of mentality
> so deeply, they would be suffered from an obsession
> and lose their reality. Because Anno himself was
> one of them. "New type" is just a fictitious term and
> noone can be a new type in the real life.
>
> By NGE, Anno merely tried to tell those otaku
> don't be too serious about anime, go outside,
> watch and feel the real world. "Jinrui hokan keikaku"
> (The human reinforce plan) isn't anything but the
> show itself. It's a meta contexual reference like
> as "Never Ending Story".
Creating an excellent mecha show is not an effective method of making
a parody of mecha shows. Evangleion was, for all intents and
purposes, a mecha show that featured better developed thematic
elements and interesting characters. The fact that Anno decided to
throw all that out at the end and justify it by saying that the series
was never really about those things is part of the reason I consider
it so poorly written. Some of his later work has made it quite clear
that he has no particular interest in providing any sort of closure at
the end of a series.
ZoqFotPik
> People said multiple conflicting things about these things through the
> show, which is not the same thing.
>
> Why did you assume that they were all telling the truth?
The viewer is given no particular reason to believe one explanation
over another, nor even given a reason to doubt the existing
explanation before being told that it is false.
Michael Wignall
news:<wuic8.20744$N31.1...@ozemail.com.au>...
>
> impact and the nature of Adam and the angels were not
> the stuff of in-jokes and 60's sci-fi references. Again,
> there are answers that are not within the show itself, which
> is an indicator that it was not well scripted.
I see it as an indicator that the backstory of the 2nd Impact,
and the nature of Adam, were not vital to the story itself, and
thus it wasn't important to discuss them. I didn't get to the end
of the series and just sit there thinking, damn I wish I knew what
that blasted 2nd Impact is. I was more thrilled and amazed at
the personal story I had been shown, at the characters I had
seen develop.
If it was just about the Eva and the Angels for you then I think
you have missed something fantastic.
> The "truth" changes throughout Eva, depending on what the
> writers decided they wanted to happen at the time. There
> was no particular consistancy or continuity to the series.
> Simply stating that what was said before was not true when
> such a revelation is not forshadowed or particularly significant
> is not good writing.
Again I'm sorry, I didn't realise that everything had to be spelled
out for you to enjoy it. How on Earth can you possibly know
what the writers where thinking, are you so pretentious to assume
that you know what they are thinking? I had no problem at all
with the revelations. I didn't think "Oh well that's crap, obviously
the writers suck, they didn't put in any foreshadowing or hints
for me so I would know what was happening before it actually did".
Would you call the writing poor in "The Usual Suspects" because
we are given no indication until the very end that "The Cripple" is
anything but what he seems?
> > Personally I don't need all my answers served to me
> > on a silver platter. The answers are there, you just have
> > to look for them.
>
> And being forced to look outside the series itself for
> those answers in an indication that it is poorly scripted.
An indication for you perhaps. No one is _forcing_ you
to do anything. If you don't want to think for yourself, to
find your own answers, to actually play a part in your
own enjoyment, then that is your own problem - "Too Bad".
> > I didn't think it failed at all and I don't think that one "level"
> > of Eva conflicted with another. If you were distracted by
> > "unanswered questions" then that is your problem, personally
> > I loved the original ending, I loved the conclusion, it gave
> > me everything I wanted (and some stuff I didn't even realise
> > I wanted).
>
> Fair enough, but the simple fact is that it also left many
> things unresolved.
For you perhaps. not for me. Again if you were more worried
about the Second Impact and the Angels than about the
characters then I think you missed the point completely.
Michael Wignall
You're not supposed to doubt it before you are told that it is
false. It is called a "surprise". Life is sort of boring without
them.
Nargun
> Nargun <lou...@student.unimelb.edu.au> wrote in message news:<Pine.OSF.4.10.102021...@cassius.its.unimelb.edu.au>...
>
> > People said multiple conflicting things about these things through the
> > show, which is not the same thing.
> >
> > Why did you assume that they were all telling the truth?
>
> The viewer is given no particular reason to believe one explanation
> over another,
...
...
Ignoring the movie, which *opens* with the second impact, I can recall
three occaisions where the south pole is depicted.
1: Misato is shown escaping from the south pole. There's glowing golden
wings, there's purple fire in the sky, there's blood in the water, there's
a distinct abscence of a big-arsed impact crater.
2: there are two sequences at the south pole in the sealled tight against
whatever's out their aircraft carrier.
And that's ignoring the fact that the story would NOT HAVE HAPPENED if the
asteroid explanation were true.
> nor even given a reason to doubt the existing
> explanation before being told that it is false.
Your point?
I'm sorry, but for all the attention you paid to the show, you may as well
have watched the testpattern.
Nargun
> I have not seen them actively advertising the series (the tapes, that
> is) - and if they do not do that, nobody will *know* this gem of a
> series, and so nobody will buy it, which will result in Viz stopping the
> series for real (see all this "if it does well, we will ..." stuff). It
> does not look to me as if they are really that interested in MI at all.
> Compare to Ranma 1/2, for example. MI *needs* advertising to be a
> success, since it is a pretty old series. People won't pay that much for
> it - the bootlegs are selling pretty well, since that is what people
> want: *all* episodes in one package for max $200, and subtitled (not
> dubbed) would be enough (and far cheaper for Viz).
They've *tried* advertising them in the past. Presumably, if they found
that they got more money in extra sales than the advertising cost, they'd
still be doing it, because to do otherwise would be Stupid(tm). The fact
that they aren't advertising it indicates that they have found
advertising it to be a waste of money.
Are we clear yet?
Manbow Papa
> Creating an excellent mecha show is not an effective method of making
> a parody of mecha shows. Evangleion was, for all intents and
> purposes, a mecha show that featured better developed thematic
> elements and interesting characters.
NGE had to look like a promising mecha show, because
Anno needed to make hard-core otaku, whom he really
wanted to talk to, watch the show. If NGE were a cheap
show at the first glance, they would never reach to the ending.
> The fact that Anno decided to
> throw all that out at the end and justify it by saying that the series
> was never really about those things is part of the reason I consider
> it so poorly written. Some of his later work has made it quite clear
> that he has no particular interest in providing any sort of closure at
> the end of a series.
Maybe. But I like to mention one thing as a side note.
Last year, in an anime related TV show, Anno was
invited as a guest who was the director of an excellent
show, "Nadia: The secret of blue water", and asked by
the caster to give a message to all anime fans.
Then, Anno said:
"Don't keep watching anime only. Go out, play and
see anything. Meet and talk with someone. There are
so many favorite things in the real world. I once tried
to describe mental darkness in people who almost
closed their mind to the outer world and faced to
an dead end of their life. Otaku, for example.
I don't think I will make an anime any more. I haven't
really watched any single anime in quite a while.
I'm planning to make a live action film recently."
Michael Wignall
> >
> > The viewer is given no particular reason to believe one explanation
> > over another, nor even given a reason to doubt the existing
> > explanation before being told that it is false.
>
> You're not supposed to doubt it before you are told that it is
> false. It is called a "surprise". Life is sort of boring without
> them.
Just a note, this is referring to the Adam/Lilith thing. Not the
Second Impact. I, like Nargun, thought that was pretty obvious.
White Flame (aka David Holz)
> a parody of mecha shows. Evangleion was, for all intents and
> purposes, a mecha show that featured better developed thematic
> elements and interesting characters. The fact that Anno decided to
> throw all that out at the end and justify it by saying that the series
> was never really about those things is part of the reason I consider
> it so poorly written. Some of his later work has made it quite clear
> that he has no particular interest in providing any sort of closure at
> the end of a series.
Why must a plotline be a cookie-cutter "intro -> foreshadow conflict or
resolution -> conflict -> resolution -> closure" mold for it to be good?
Sheesh, allow for some innovation in the field of script writing, instead of
labelling everything not factory-produced as "poorly written".
Jens Baumann
> that they got more money in extra sales than the advertising cost, they'd
> still be doing it, because to do otherwise would be Stupid(tm). The fact
> that they aren't advertising it indicates that they have found
> advertising it to be a waste of money.
> Are we clear yet?
Yup. Still, it's sad. I think quite a lot of people would like the
series, if they only knew about it. Everybody I showed the manga / the
anime to so far immediately got hooked. The series is less known than it
deserves to be :-(
ZoqFotPik
> ...
>
> ...
>
> Ignoring the movie, which *opens* with the second impact, I can recall
> three occaisions where the south pole is depicted.
>
> 1: Misato is shown escaping from the south pole. There's glowing golden
> wings, there's purple fire in the sky, there's blood in the water, there's
> a distinct abscence of a big-arsed impact crater.
> 2: there are two sequences at the south pole in the sealled tight against
> whatever's out their aircraft carrier.
>
> And that's ignoring the fact that the story would NOT HAVE HAPPENED if the
> asteroid explanation were true.
The asteroid explanation was obviously untrue, but it is later said
that an angel coming in contact with Adam was not the cause of the
second impact either(even though that was supposedly why they were
fighting to keep the angels at bay). In fact, by the end of the
series it is no longer even clear what the Angels' goals were or what
the danger was that NERV was protecting the earth from. Furthermore,
though it does indeed show golden wings and a glowing Eva-esque figure
at the north pole, it never offers any real explanation of what is
being depicted.
ZoqFotPik
> I see it as an indicator that the backstory of the 2nd Impact,
> and the nature of Adam, were not vital to the story itself, and
> thus it wasn't important to discuss them. I didn't get to the end
> of the series and just sit there thinking, damn I wish I knew what
> that blasted 2nd Impact is. I was more thrilled and amazed at
> the personal story I had been shown, at the characters I had
> seen develop.
That it did not bother you when such things were left unresolved does
not change the fact that it is a mark of poor storytelling to raise
questions that are never answered.
> If it was just about the Eva and the Angels for you then I think
> you have missed something fantastic.
The major failing of the series is that it devoted a great deal of
time to the Eva units and the angels, only to turn around at the end
and declare that they were of no importance.
> Again I'm sorry, I didn't realise that everything had to be spelled
> out for you to enjoy it. How on Earth can you possibly know
> what the writers where thinking, are you so pretentious to assume
> that you know what they are thinking? I had no problem at all
> with the revelations. I didn't think "Oh well that's crap, obviously
> the writers suck, they didn't put in any foreshadowing or hints
> for me so I would know what was happening before it actually did".
Tossing out revelations at random may indeed be surprising, but it is
not necessarily good writing. Such revelations must be meaningful,
typically because they create a new context in which to view
characters and events. The "surprises" in Evangelion did no such
thing. For example, we learn that what was believed to be Adam is
really Lillith, but this does not seem to be of any particular
importance.
> An indication for you perhaps. No one is _forcing_ you
> to do anything. If you don't want to think for yourself, to
> find your own answers, to actually play a part in your
> own enjoyment, then that is your own problem - "Too Bad".
The fact remains that being forced to look outside the series itself
for answers to questions raised in the series is a sign that the
series is incomplete.
> For you perhaps. not for me.
There is no "not for me". You were not bothered by these unanswered
questions, but the fact is that there were indeed unanswered
questions.
> Again if you were more worried about the Second Impact
> and the Angels than about the characters then I think you
> missed the point completely.
And again, if the Second Impact and the Angels were of no real
significance, the series should not have devoted so much time to them.
ZoqFotPik
> NGE had to look like a promising mecha show, because
> Anno needed to make hard-core otaku, whom he really
> wanted to talk to, watch the show. If NGE were a cheap
> show at the first glance, they would never reach to the ending.
It was a promising mecha show, with good action, intense drama, and
interesting thematic elements. Sadly it simply fell apart towards the
end.
> Maybe. But I like to mention one thing as a side note.
> Last year, in an anime related TV show, Anno was
> invited as a guest who was the director of an excellent
> show, "Nadia: The secret of blue water", and asked by
> the caster to give a message to all anime fans.
>
> Then, Anno said:
> "Don't keep watching anime only. Go out, play and
> see anything. Meet and talk with someone. There are
> so many favorite things in the real world. I once tried
> to describe mental darkness in people who almost
> closed their mind to the outer world and faced to
> an dead end of their life. Otaku, for example.
> I don't think I will make an anime any more. I haven't
> really watched any single anime in quite a while.
> I'm planning to make a live action film recently."
It is possible to set forth such ideas in a story and yet still offer
closure and resolution. Anno is clearly not interested in such
things. The fact that Kare Kano simply stopped in the middle of a
major arc would seem to support this. The fact that he intended Eva
as a message to otaku is no excuse for leaving so many things
unresolved.
Michael Wignall
> Nargun <lou...@student.unimelb.edu.au> wrote in message
news:<Pine.OSF.4.10.102022...@cassius.its.unimelb.edu.au>
...
>
> > And that's ignoring the fact that the story would NOT
>
> The asteroid explanation was obviously untrue, but it is
> later said that an angel coming in contact with Adam was
> not the cause of the second impact either(even though that
> was supposedly why they were fighting to keep the angels
> at bay).
Misato (whom it becomes apart knows nothing about what
is really going on) thinks in episode 22:
Misato : (thinking) That isn't the true story? It's a lie?
Second Impact wasn't caused by contact with an Angel.
Of course the episode just before it, episode 21 we are almost
directly told that this wasn't the case. Fuyutsuki confronts
Gendou about how it was planned by him and SEELE, and how
he "escaped" a day early. It was obvious then (to me at least)
that the Second Impact wasn't caused my contact with an Angel,
Misato's comments in the next episode just re-enforced that idea.
They were ostensibly fighting to keep the Angels at bay because
as Asuka put it "They attacked us!" or course there is more too
it than that.
You really should watch the series a little more closely before
dismissing it as "bad writing"
> In fact, by the end of the series it is no longer even clear what
> the Angels' goals were or what the danger was that NERV was
> protecting the earth from.
I think it is made very clear. Especially in episode 24. Kaoru states
it quite plainly. He was trying to return to Adam and if he had done
so it would have triggered the Third Impact and caused the death of
all humanity. Just because contact with an Angel didn't cause the
Second Impact doesn't mean it couldn't cause the Third.
> Furthermore, though it does indeed show golden wings and a
> glowing Eva-esque figure at the north pole, it never offers any
> real explanation of what is being depicted.
We are told in episode 21:
Fuyutsuki: This is... Is this that giant?
Akagi: We of Gehirn call that object Adam. This is different.
Fuyutsuki: Then,
Akagi: Yes, the Adam created by humans, Eva.
We are told that be being of light is Adam. How direct do you
need it to be?
It appears to me that you really have no idea what happens in
the series at all. You _need_ to watch it more than once to
get everything. It is as simple as that. This is not an indicator of
poor writing though, rather I think it is more indicative of the
fantastic thought that went into the series. All of these "unexplained"
answers that you are searching for are there to find. They are
not presented to you on a plate though, you need to do a little
thinking for yourself. So could you please refrain from comment
on something it is obvious you don't understand. Again if you
don't understand it then that is your own problem, not a sign of
poor writing.
Michael Wignall
> "Michael Wignall" <wi...@evangelion.com> wrote in message
news:<gdBc8.21089$N31.1...@ozemail.com.au>...
>
> does not change the fact that it is a mark of poor storytelling to
> raise questions that are never answered.
It is a mark of poor storytelling in your opinion. I disagree, I don't
think that "good" story telling needs to be blatantly obvious and direct.
I don't think "good" writing requires everything to be spelled out for
us.
> > If it was just about the Eva and the Angels for you then
> > I think you have missed something fantastic.
>
> The major failing of the series is that it devoted a great deal
> of time to the Eva units and the angels, only to turn around
> at the end and declare that they were of no importance.
If that was a major failing for you, and as a consequence it
ruined the whole series for you, then I'm sorry. You have
missed you on something fantastic. I have never seen it
as a failing because for me it was never about the Evas and
the Angels. I don't think they devoted a lot of time to
the Evas and the Angels, rather to the children and those
around them struggling with the evas and the Angels.
> Tossing out revelations at random may indeed be surprising,
> but it is not necessarily good writing.
So why do you assume that it is necessarily bad writing?
> Such revelations must be meaningful, typically because they
> create a new context in which to view characters and events.
> The "surprises" in Evangelion did no such thing. For example,
> we learn that what was believed to be Adam is really Lillith,
> but this does not seem to be of any particular importance.
It is of terrific importance. Kaoru states that he is trying to
return to Adam, his mother being. He gets down to terminal
dogma only to discover that the being he was trying to return
to was not Adam at all, but Lilith, the mother of humanity.
> > An indication for you perhaps. No one is _forcing_ you
> > to do anything. If you don't want to think for yourself, to
> > find your own answers, to actually play a part in your
> > own enjoyment, then that is your own problem - "Too Bad".
>
> The fact remains that being forced to look outside the series
> itself for answers to questions raised in the series is a sign
> that the series is incomplete.
I don't think it is a sign of that at all. The series was complete
in that it showed all that it was intended to show. If you wanted
to look outside for other information, and that increased your
enjoyment of the show (as it did with me), then that's great. I
don't think it was required though, , I certainly don't think that
it is a sign of a poor show.
> > For you perhaps. not for me.
>
> There is no "not for me". You were not bothered by these
> unanswered questions, but the fact is that there were indeed
> unanswered questions.
Again I ask can you provide some specifics please. What
"unanswered questions"? It seems apparent from your other
post that you missed a lot of stuff upon watching the series
itself. Some questions might not be as "unanswered" as you
think, you just didn't look hard enough.
> > Again if you were more worried about the Second Impact
> > and the Angels than about the characters then I think you
> > missed the point completely.
>
> And again, if the Second Impact and the Angels were of no
> real significance, the series should not have devoted so much
> time to them.
I don't think they did devote much time to them at all. At least
note the Second Impact and certainly not the Angels for the sake
of the Angels. All of the Angels had a part to play, they all
challenged the children in different ways. Ultimately it came
down to the interaction of the children and how they dealt
with the Angels. They were a tool, and in my opinion never
meant to be anything more.
ZoqFotPik
> Why must a plotline be a cookie-cutter "intro -> foreshadow conflict or
> resolution -> conflict -> resolution -> closure" mold for it to be good?
> Sheesh, allow for some innovation in the field of script writing, instead of
> labelling everything not factory-produced as "poorly written".
The format you are describing is not "factory produced", but a natural
by-product of the fact that any work of fiction will have a beginning,
a middle, and an end, and a conflict that drives the storyline. Being
incomplete is not "innovation".
ZoqFotPik
> Misato (whom it becomes apart knows nothing about what
> is really going on) thinks in episode 22:
>
> Misato : (thinking) That isn't the true story? It's a lie?
> Second Impact wasn't caused by contact with an Angel.
>
> Of course the episode just before it, episode 21 we are almost
> directly told that this wasn't the case. Fuyutsuki confronts
> Gendou about how it was planned by him and SEELE, and how
> he "escaped" a day early. It was obvious then (to me at least)
> that the Second Impact wasn't caused my contact with an Angel,
> Misato's comments in the next episode just re-enforced that idea.
>
> They were ostensibly fighting to keep the Angels at bay because
> as Asuka put it "They attacked us!" or course there is more too
> it than that.
>
> You really should watch the series a little more closely before
> dismissing it as "bad writing"
I was aware of all of the scenes you describe. They serve to
illustrate the very flaws I have been speaking of. If the Second
Impact was not caused by contact with an Angel, what caused it? If
there is no risk of a Third Impact if an Angel comes in contact with
Adam, then why are they fighting to keep them from reaching him/it?
These questions are not answered
> I think it is made very clear. Especially in episode 24. Kaoru states
> it quite plainly. He was trying to return to Adam and if he had done
> so it would have triggered the Third Impact and caused the death of
> all humanity. Just because contact with an Angel didn't cause the
> Second Impact doesn't mean it couldn't cause the Third.
Since the cause of the Second Impact is unclear, it is equally unclear
what would cause a Third Impact. What would have happened if Kaoru
returned to Adam is unclear. The significance of what was thought to
be Adam actually being Lillith is equally unclear.
> We are told in episode 21:
>
> Fuyutsuki: This is... Is this that giant?
>
> Akagi: We of Gehirn call that object Adam. This is different.
>
> Fuyutsuki: Then,
>
> Akagi: Yes, the Adam created by humans, Eva.
>
> We are told that be being of light is Adam. How direct do you
> need it to be?
Yet it is revealed that what was previously understood to be Adam is
in fact Lillith, so where does that leave us? Was the glowing figure
really Adam, or was that Lillith as well? If it was Adam, where did
he go, since what Nerv brought back from the North Pole was revealed
to be Lillith? Please note that the giant being hanging on the cross
beneath Nerv looks nothing like either the glowing giant or the Evas.
There are no answers to these questions, because Anno had no interest
in providing any sort of proper closure or resolution. This is poor
writing.
> It appears to me that you really have no idea what happens in
> the series at all. You _need_ to watch it more than once to
> get everything. It is as simple as that. This is not an indicator of
> poor writing though, rather I think it is more indicative of the
> fantastic thought that went into the series. All of these "unexplained"
> answers that you are searching for are there to find.
The answers are not there, as you yourself have shown. The
"revelations" that come late in the series leave the viewer knowing
even less than before, and since the conclusion of the series focuses
on Shinji's personal growth, many questions remain unanswered. This
is poor writing. If Anno wanted to make a series about how people
shut each other out and the importance of reaching out to others, he
should have done that. If he wanted to make a show about freaky mecha
and giant monsters, he should have done that. If he wanted to do
both, he should have done both, rather than mixing the two together
only to abandon one aspect of the series and focus exclusively on the
other as the series concludes.
ZoqFotPik
> It is a mark of poor storytelling in your opinion. I disagree, I don't
> think that "good" story telling needs to be blatantly obvious and direct.
> I don't think "good" writing requires everything to be spelled out for
> us.
A good story must be complete within itself. It must not devote time
to plot threads that ultimately go nowhere. This is not merely one
man's opinion, but standards by which writing is typically judged,
unless you can demonstrate otherwise...
> If that was a major failing for you, and as a consequence it
> ruined the whole series for you, then I'm sorry. You have
> missed you on something fantastic. I have never seen it
> as a failing because for me it was never about the Evas and
> the Angels. I don't think they devoted a lot of time to
> the Evas and the Angels, rather to the children and those
> around them struggling with the evas and the Angels.
I have missed nothing. Significant portions of the series were
devoted to the battles with the Angels. More than half the episodes,
I believe. To declare that these aspects of the series were not
important and to leave them largely unresolved is the major failing of
the series.
> So why do you assume that it is necessarily bad writing?
Randomness is not generally considered a mark of good writing.
> It is of terrific importance. Kaoru states that he is trying to
> return to Adam, his mother being. He gets down to terminal
> dogma only to discover that the being he was trying to return
> to was not Adam at all, but Lilith, the mother of humanity.
And this means what? Where is the real Adam? What is Lillith? What
would have happened had one of the previous Angels actually joined
with Lillith? The veiwers are never told.
> I don't think it is a sign of that at all. The series was complete
> in that it showed all that it was intended to show.
It showed a great deal more as well, apparently, and that was it's
failing. Even knowing the theme he wished to convey, Anno was content
to introduce other plot threads and pose other questions that were
never resolved or answered within the scope of the series itself.
Such lack of focus is not a mark of good writing.
> I don't think they did devote much time to them at all. At least
> note the Second Impact and certainly not the Angels for the sake
> of the Angels. All of the Angels had a part to play, they all
> challenged the children in different ways. Ultimately it came
> down to the interaction of the children and how they dealt
> with the Angels. They were a tool, and in my opinion never
> meant to be anything more.
That they further developed the thematic elements of the show is not a
justification for devoting significant screen time to them only to
declare them irrelevant.