Midori-greatest ever? Discuss amongst yourselves.....
TCAXEL
greatest female athlete of all time.
My criteria is not whether she is the fastest, strongest, most mentally tough
female compeititor ever. ('92 Olympics would contradict that :o( )There are
many female athletes who were probably just as good if not better. I'm saying
that per a particular sport, she accomplished more on sheer athletic/technical
achievement vis-a-vis all competitiors and the judging standards of that sport
than any other female athlete ever.
My basis is quite simple. IMO she could probably have placed first or second
in an OPEN competition, between all female and male skaters at the time of her
peak period. Circa '89-'92. No other woman has come close before or since.
(Maybe Harding for that brief "Skate America" golden skate, alas) In any sport
I can recall in the last 50 years. And sorry, archery, shooting, etc I don't
quite consider in the same "athletic" level as jumping and landing 3revolutions
jumps on a thin blade on ice.
By the end of Midori's eligible days 2 3axels were becoming standard for the
men and with the advent of the quad, the gap between the men and women
currently is very large indeed.
However, consider the following:
Her '89 World Performance, in which she landed all triples, including a 3axel,
and a 3toe/3toe in the last 90 seconds of her LP would have placed her IMO in
at least 2nd place in the Men's competition behind Kurt Browning. Christopher
Bowman didn't quite land his 3axel in his LP, even though he had IIRC a
3lutz/3toe in his LP. Indeed, she seemed to have more energy than Bowman had at
the end of his LP.
Her Trophee lalique performace in '91 in which Midori landed on two consecutive
jumping passes the most technical impressive display by a female skater ever,
first a HUGE triple lutz/triple toe, and then a HUGE triple axel/double toe, as
well as every other triple jump the rest of the LP is extremely impressive ,.
(Interesting in that she doubled the 3flip and reattempted and landed it later,
and popped the 3loop and landed it again at the end of her program ) in that it
would have IMHO won the overall competition if placed against the male skaters
who placed in the top three.
Can any recall if her '90 Words LP was the equivalent of the top three on the
men's side? Probably not equivalent to Kurt, as Browning would have landed 2
3axels and a triple/triple and Petrenko may have landed at least one 3axel and
a separate tripel/triple combination? But I guessing the equivalent of Bowman's
3rd place skate. I do know she landed the 3axel once again. (I don't have the
90 LP for both men and womens on tape)
Even compare her "flawed" LP from the 92 Albertville Olympics. She landed the
3axel, (on two attempts) something that the bronze medalist (Petr Barna) could
not accomplish.
Now my harmless speculation: It seems pretty evident that jumpwise, Midori Ito
was so much head and shoulders above the women competitors that there was no
burning need for her to try to incorporate 2 triple axels in her LP. The fact
that she "could have"is seen by the fact that she landed a 3axel late in her LP
after she had fallen in the first attempt at '92 Olympics Albertville.
Her '92 LP was ambitious enough as planned: triple lutz/triple toe, triple
axel/double toe, triple flip/triple toe. Alas, she fell on the first 3axel
attempt, and doubled the 3lutz combination (can't recall if she did the 3flip
combination afterall).
However, my point is that if performed at her peak prior performace level
Midori Ito could have conceivably have beaten Victor Petrenko and Paul Wylie
who finished 1st and 2nd in the men's competition.
Indeed, if Midori Ito would have disguised herself and skated in drag, as Mr.
Ito, :O) I have no doubt she could have placed in the top 2 at many skating
competitons on the mens' side '89-92. As Scott Hamilton once said in '88, her
"jumps are bigger than Boitano's". Indeed, the height and distance of her
jumps were the equivalent of any man's.
Great as previous female athletes before and since have been, tennis greats
such as Suzanne Lenglen, Helen Wills Moody, Martina Navrawtilova, etc could not
have stood toe to toe with their contemporary male compatriots. Likewise track
and field athletes, swimmers, baskebetball players. The point isn't that men
are faster, swifter, jump higher, etc. In a sport where jumping ability is
paramount, where technical ability standards involve landing specific jumps,
she was the equal of any man, regarding her jumping ability and technical
content. It is a quirk of sports history that the greatest female
skater/jumper came just at the point in time in which the male skaters hadn't
pushed the envelope jumpwise to be heads and shoulders above her.
Thus my unscientific and totally biased conclusion that on this criteria Midori
Ito is the greatest female athlete of all time.
I suspect that at least two Ito-holics, Trish O'brien and Frank won't dispute
this. ;O)
Theo
"As long as you have the mental game down, your techniques are solid,
physically all you need is just your body to be there with you." -Venus
Williams
Pat C
awe of her technical abilities. She was a skater who we were lucky
enough to see once in a lifetime. If I get to see another, it'll be
icing on the cake.
I'm not discounting the merits of other skaters who are better at the
presentation aspects of skating. They have their own place in
history.
Pat C
BaleofAKS
>second
>in an OPEN competition, between all female and male skaters at the time of
>her
>peak period.
If we're going to use women versus men as a criteria....you can't forget Julie
Krone. That's why she's in the Hall of Fame. :-)
Interesting post, Theo. Thank you.
LB
Bale...@AOL.com
KatKaylor
amazing and she was a pleasure to watch. She showed such joy on the ice! I miss
her very much!
Warm Regards,
Kathleen
"It is never too late to become what you might have been."
Jonafan
few skating tapes I have that I actually watch several times per year.
I would dispute the title "greatest woman athlete" on the grounds that Ms.
Ito did not pay attention to her body and basically destroyed her
competitive career by the time she was 20 (or maybe her coaches and figure
skating association forced her to train this way?). To me, the greatest
woman athlete should have wisdom along with athleticism; wisdom that
produces respect for the limitations of her body and seeks out appropriate
training regimes that will preserve the ability to perform and compete for
the long haul. I find Ms. Ito's story incredibly sad, and believe that
skaters and coaches need to pay attention to the story so that it can be
prevented in up-and-coming young skaters.
My nomination would be Jackie Joyner Kersee, who just recently retired from
heptathalon, but still remains involved with sports in spite of asthma
(which she works hard to control). Or possibly Babe Didrickson, who did
multiple sports well, although Ms. Didrickson died of cancer at a young age.
Not sure what kind of cancer and whether it was aggravated by lifestyle
choices (smoking?), but back then, the scientific community didn't know a
lot about cancer and links to lifestyle choices so she can hardly be blamed
for making poor choices. If Ms. Didrickson had been born 40 years later,
she might have been able to prevent or cure her cancer and continue to stay
involved in sports.
Also, I dispute the "greatest woman athlete" title for Midori because she
only did (does) one sport. I personally think the title should go to a
multi-talented athlete who has acheived excellence in more than one sport
(like Ms. Didrickson).
"TCAXEL" <tca...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020316165321...@mb-fm.aol.com...
> Ok, I am going out on a limb here and saying that Midori Ito is probably
the
> greatest female athlete of all time.
>
> My criteria is not whether she is the fastest, strongest, most mentally
tough
> female compeititor ever. ('92 Olympics would contradict that
J.D. Klein
Theo,
I strongly agree with you all the way!
Midori Ito is & always will be one of the technically brillant Skaters
of all
time. Male or Female. Hands Down!
I would like to see more women in today's figure skating events make
an attempt to land a Triple Axel. (Yoshie Onda of Japan did just that
at the 2002 Salt Lake Games)
Triples-Triples are great in competition, but the Triple Axel is the
hardest jump for the ladies to land.
For that reason, it would bring Womens Figure Skating up to a whole
new technical level.
Thanks For Your Article,
Jo Klein
mmarteen
Midori Ito
> was so much head and shoulders above the women competitors that there was no
> burning need for her to try to incorporate 2 triple axels in her LP. The fact
> that she "could have"is seen by the fact that she landed a 3axel late in her LP
> after she had fallen in the first attempt at '92 Olympics Albertville.
>
This was one of the "greatest moments of figure skating" in my own
personal view. The guts it took to add a huge jump like that at the
end of a program! For that alone, she deserves to be immortalized.
MaraEL3
>From: tca...@aol.com (TCAXEL)
>Date: 3/16/02 4:53 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <20020316165321...@mb-fm.aol.com>
>
>Ok, I am going out on a limb here and saying that Midori Ito is probably the
>greatest female athlete of all time.
No limb. Very obvious!
:-)
Mara
<><
katelogan
This is Kate:
For the OT part, I'd have to say Babe Didrickson Zaharias is the
greatest woman athlete of the 20th century. SHE DID IT ALL!
For skating? I'd have to say Janet Lynn. I'd rather watch her
delicate perfection than all the "jumping beans" in the world. Every
line was exquisite...right down to the position of her fingers, and
the joy SHE radiated melted the ice.
When I see some of the scrawny kids in the current crop, with their
graceless arm movements, and spins that corkscrew like one of Shirley
Temple's curls....
SHEESH!
Then, you have some commentator gush: "She's going to attempt a
TRIPLE AXEL!!!"
Yippee!!! So What?
I, for one, would rather see a perfect, floating SINGLE jump that fits
with the music, than all the triples and quads in the world...
KL, who remembers Peggy, Janet and Dorothy....Karen Cadavy and Jill
Trenary-Dean...
Joelle
>greatest woman athlete of the 20th century. SHE DID IT ALL!
I can second that.>
>For skating? I'd have to say Janet Lynn. I'd rather watch her
>delicate perfection than all the "jumping beans" in the world
He didn't say most beautiful skater or even best skater - he said
athletic...and much as I liked Janet Lynn...I don't think most athletic
describes her.
>KL, who remembers Peggy, Janet and Dorothy....Karen Cadavy and Jill
>Trenary-Dean...
And remember, Dorothy Hamill was the "athletic" one who could never compete
with the grace of Peggy Fleming so she decided she would outjump everyone.
People forget that about her.
Joelle
If you want to make God laugh, tell him what you are doing tomorrow
Father Mike
johns
> Thus my unscientific and totally biased conclusion that on this criteria
Midori
> Ito is the greatest female athlete of all time.
No. She missed that title by about 25 years. She, at best, only imitates
a young lady who was years ahead of her time .. not in just one event, but
in 4 seperate events ... Nadia Comaneci. Not only was she far superior
athletically to Midori, she outdistanced her in probably more than 50
individual stunts .. all of which were at least the equivalent of the 3axel.
And, many of which were far more difficult. By the time Midori was
competing, all over the world little 10 year old girls were doing gymnastics
elements far beyond what Nadia started. And yes, they did push the men,
but, in gymnastics, the men rose to the challenge, and have maintained their
lead. Personally, it amazes me that the world, and fans, of figure skating
are so naive about the history of a "sister" sport that led the way.
Figure skating is only now going through what gymnastics went through
in the early 70s .. and has 3 decades of catching up to do.
johns
JesseJones
> > Thus my unscientific and totally biased conclusion that on this criteria
> Midori
> > Ito is the greatest female athlete of all time.
>
> No. She missed that title by about 25 years. She, at best, only imitates
> a young lady who was years ahead of her time .. not in just one event, but
> in 4 seperate events ... Nadia Comaneci.
Mr. Snakenburg, you may want to try testing that one out on the
message board over at www.gymn.com . See for yourself what the *real*
coaches & judges have to say about your opinions...or perhaps you
don't really want a challenge?
> Personally, it amazes me that the world, and fans, of figure skating
> are so naive about the history of a "sister" sport that led the way.
The way that *you're* so naive about it? Please, go to gymn.com...let
them school you.
--JJ
johns
> Mr. Snakenburg, you may want to try testing that one out on the
> message board over at www.gymn.com . See for yourself what the *real*
> coaches & judges have to say about your opinions...
You mean that pack of liars who got their asses kicked by
my gym team .. or have Mark and Sam finally learned how
to use a computer. If the Jewish contingent is over there,
I will gladly start it up with them again .. starting with, "
Has Sam finally got one of those girls to go out with him?"
My daughter worked with his sorry butt this year. Says
he is still ugly. Bite me!
johns
johns
> message board over at www.gymn.com . See for yourself what the *real*
That is not even Usenet. It's just a bunch of kids under a monitor,
and I was planning on kicking your collective butts about what you
think you know. I was one of the startup coaches in the age-group
program that came out of the "Y". You guys don't know beans
about those years. I would give you a list of references that
would shut you up so fast you would go yelping off to summer
camp at Woodward with your inlines in your gym bag. C'mon,
get serious.
johns
Della Gottesman
the
> greatest female athlete of all time.
>
still think if you look at the achievements of Babe Dietrickson, no one can
beat it. It's not that she won Olympic Gold in Track and Field, or was a
champion bowler and then a champion golfer. It's the fact that each one of
these sports was so totally different than the other, and she mastered them
all.
JesseJones
> > message board over at www.gymn.com . See for yourself what the *real*
>
> That is not even Usenet.
Well duh. What was your first clue Sherlock? The www. or the .com?
> It's just a bunch of kids under a monitor
I see you've never been there. You'd prefer to discuss the sport
you're supposedly so devoted to, here in this ng where no one wants to
discuss it with you. Pure genius. Peg's right, you are a
trouble-maker.
> I was one of the startup coaches in the age-group
> program that came out of the "Y".
Yada-yada, I know, I know. You're older than dirt, you invented the
light bulb, you patented a superior grade of stitching for
Levi's...it's just all about you Mr. Snakie.
> You guys don't know beans
> about those years.
I don't even like beans. Maybe pinto beans, or a medium-cooked kidney
bean, but definitely not butter beans (yuk!)
> I would give you a list of references that
> would shut you up so fast you would go yelping off to summer
> camp at Woodward with your inlines in your gym bag. C'mon,
> get serious.
Sure John. I'll bite. I'd love to see your list of make-believe
credentials, just make up some good stuff so I can at least get one
hearty chuckle out of it. Tell me all about how you once flew to
Africa and taught a pygmie village how to do full-in back flips and
brought them fire.
--JJ, engaging the sloppy old troll...I feel so dirty
Dave Amorde
news:d32ef149.02031...@posting.google.com...
> "johns" <sna...@uidaho.edu> wrote in message
news:<a75kpr$h6c$1...@kestrel.csrv.uidaho.edu>...
> > > message board over at www.gymn.com . See for yourself what the *real*
> >
> Sure John. I'll bite. I'd love to see your list of make-believe
> credentials, just make up some good stuff so I can at least get one
> hearty chuckle out of it.
According to public records on the web, Mr. John S. is on the staff at the
University of Idaho, Moscow campus. When he's not busy ripping a new a**hole
into USFSA judges, he spends his time cleaning dust out of floppy drives.
For a good time call...
http://www.engr.uidaho.edu/staff/
-Dave-
Janice Schnell
>University of Idaho, Moscow campus. When he's not busy ripping a new a**hole
>into USFSA judges, he spends his time cleaning dust out of floppy drives.
>For a good time call...
>
>http://www.engr.uidaho.edu/staff/
>
>-Dave-
>
the information is available through the link on JohnS's e-mail.
Janice
Trudi Marrapodi
its_...@hotmail.com (JesseJones) wrote:
> "johns" <sna...@uidaho.edu> wrote in message
news:<a75kpr$h6c$1...@kestrel.csrv.uidaho.edu>...
[snip]
> > I was one of the startup coaches in the age-group
> > program that came out of the "Y".
>
> Yada-yada, I know, I know. You're older than dirt, you invented the
> light bulb, you patented a superior grade of stitching for
> Levi's...it's just all about you Mr. Snakie.
[snip]
Did you also know he can cure homosexuality? He told us so. He's a trained
psychologist. He knows homosexuality is caused by arrested emotional
development, and that this can be "fixed" by helping the person to become
emotionally mature.
Example of one of his success stories: He once had a male rabbit in a cage
who wanted to hump boy rabbits. Johns threw a female rabbit into the cage
and left the two of them alone for a while. Voila! Baby rabbits! Another
gay male rescued from the path to perdition, thanks to "The Johns Method"!
Yes, he really is an interesting character.
--
Trudi
adding the question "What do you mean?" to every post, just in case...
Joelle
>University of Idaho, Moscow campus.
So that's where the rink is where he pays only $300 a year for ice and lessons.
StackDump
The usual logical falacy when someone cannot find reasonable arguments
to refute you is to attack your person. It is called an ad hominum.
arguemtn. It is practiced widely in this NG. I'd take it as a
compliment, Johns.
SIPAAMS
>Example of one of his success stories: He once had a male rabbit in a cage who
wanted to hump boy rabbits. Johns threw a female rabbit into the cage
and left the two of them alone for a while. Voila! Baby rabbits! Another gay
male rescued from the path to perdition, thanks to "The Johns Method"!<
OK, strictly in the name of science, I am willing to test this method by being
locked in a cage with Gale Harold.
Alison
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Love one another as I have loved you. - J.C.