racist Asiaphile Mark Crispin
TANAKA Tomoyuki
(please include <alt.flame.charles-eicher> in the
followup, if you want me to read it.)
there was a white guy named Mark Crispin who used to call us
(Japanese and Japanese Americans) "Japs" (see below) and post
all kinds of racist rubbish on <soc.culture.japan>.
he was also an anime otaku.
what happened to him?
did the PC (political correctness) police put him away?
--------------------------------------------------------------------
i found the following message posted on Usenet.
it is as i found it, except for paragraph reformating.
by e-mail i asked both <mrc> and <takeuchik> to confirm the content of
the message. <takeuchik> confirmed it; <mrc> did not respond, but he
confirmed the content indirectly by explaining himself in a followup post.
i'll continue re-posting this message from time to time
until:
(1) Mr Crispin states something that indicates that sending such
a message is wrong; and
(2) Mr Crispin stops posting articles expressing racial/ethnic
hatred toward Japanese people.
|--------------------------------------------------------------------
| #38 4-MAY-1995 01:23:53.32
| From: IN%"M...@CAC.Washington.EDU" "Mark Crispin"
| To: IN%"TAKE...@delphi.com"
| CC:
| Subj: RE: 50 YEARS AGO TODAY: March 26, 1945 - fall of Iwo Jima
|
| Uh excuse me.
|
| Individuals who babble about "bitterness" usually are talking about
| themselves. You're always posting paranoid anti-American propaganda.
| You seem to hate this country, its people, and its government.
|
| What's the matter, some bully used to beat you up every day in
| school for being a Jap? Most people outgrow it. Why haven't you?
|--------------------------------------------------------------------
TANAKA Tomoyuki
sorry for cluttering these groups.
but i need to defend myself against defamation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
In article <318557...@iisc.com>, Charles M.Richmond <c...@iisc.com> wrote:
>>
>> there was a white guy named Mark Crispin who used to call us
>> (Japanese and Japanese Americans) "Japs" [...]
>
>Mark Crispin is a Native-American.
i've seen Mark Crispin up close. then, several years ago, he
was nothing but a young white American male. there is nothing
in Mark Crispin's appearance that hinted Native American ancestry.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Why is Charles Richmond picking on some poor undergrad?
--------------------------------------------------------------------
according to the article quoted below (and others), this is what
Charles Richmond did.
Richmond didn't like what a graduate student posted on
Usenet. so Richmond somehow found the e-mail addresses
of professors in the student's department, and sent them
letters attacking the student.
(i assume that this is a correct description, because Richmond
didn't mention anything that indicates otherwise.)
note that writing to Richmond's postmaster is no use, because
Richmond stated that he is a postmaster of his site.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
In article <30BB02...@iisc.com>, Charles Richmond <c...@iisc.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hiroshi Amari (eco...@minerva.cis.yale.edu) wrote:
>>
>> : He has sent the article *to professors in my department* calling for
>> : action and the false accussations that I said he is a racist and I am
>> : propagating the thread he has in mind. I am not an undergrad by the way.
>>
TANAKA Tomoyuki
(reponse 1 to Gordon Waters)
re: Crispin's calling us (Japanese and Japanese-Americans) as "Japs".
>An unfortunate selection of words, but *I SEE THE POINT* he was making.
you don't have to defend Crispin.
Crispin was posting racist rubbish in SCJ like a rabid dog.
if Crispin feels that he wants to defend himself and/or admit
that he has made an unfortunate and/or careless choice of words
by calling us (Japanese and Japanese-Americans) as "Japs", he
can do it himself.
he has not done so.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
In article <4mg64v$5...@crl5.crl.com>, Gordon Waters <gwa...@crl.com> wrote:
>
>>|--------------------------------------------------------------------
>>| #38 4-MAY-1995 01:23:53.32
>>| From: IN%"M...@CAC.Washington.EDU" "Mark Crispin"
>>| To: IN%"TAKE...@delphi.com"
>>| CC:
>>| Subj: RE: 50 YEARS AGO TODAY: March 26, 1945 - fall of Iwo Jima
>>|
>>| Uh excuse me.
>>|
>>| Individuals who babble about "bitterness" usually are talking about
>>| themselves. You're always posting paranoid anti-American propaganda.
>>| You seem to hate this country, its people, and its government.
>>|
>>| What's the matter, some bully used to beat you up every day in
>>| school for being a Jap? Most people outgrow it. Why haven't you?
>
>An unfortunate selection of words, but *I SEE THE POINT* he was making.
TANAKA Tomoyuki
tonight i saw the movie "sense and sensibility" directed by Ang Lee.
were other people reminded of the similarity between the Elinor
character (played by Emma Thomson) and Kyouko-san in mezon ikkoku
(maison ikkoku)?
TANAKA Tomoyuki
(response 2 to Gordon Waters)
>Say what? This is out of character for MRC...
calling Japanese and Japanese-American people "Japs" is
completely consistent with the rest of Mark Crispin's postings.
in Crispin's typical post (copy attached below), he notes.
"The fire-bombing of Tokyo isn't really all that
significant as an historical or a military event."
to someone like Crispin, killing 100,000 Japanese civilians may
be like killing 100,000 little insects, and therefore not "all
that significant as an historical or a military event."
for those of us (like me) who believe the Japanese are humans,
the Tokyo Bombing of 1945 3/10 --- one the largest massacres in
human history ("single events" category) --- was unquestionably
a significant event.
here are other large-scale massacres:
single events (within a month or so)
--- Nanking Massacre: 200,000 Chinese killed
--- Gulf War: 200,000 Iraqis killed
--- Hiroshima Massacre: over 200,000 Japanese killed
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 15 May 95 22:27:04 MST
From: Mark Crispin <M...@Panda.COM>
To: "Brett D. DePaola" <dep...@phys.ksu.edu>
Subject: Re: 50 YEARS AGO: US Tokyo bombing (3/10) killed 100,000 civilians
Newsgroups: soc.culture.japan
On 16 May 1995, Brett D. DePaola wrote:
> Sounds ghoulish, but what I really mean is that it was an important
> "event" in the war, and as such is an important event in Japanese
> history/modern day culture. I have a close collaborator here (in
> Japan) who remembers it well, and often brings up the topic. It may
> also help to bring the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki into better
> perspective.
>
> How about it Mark? Got anything on this topic (slightly out of
> sequence...)?
I did mention it at the time, but given the terrible signal/noise ratio on
soc.culture.japan, I wouldn't be surprised if it got overlooked. With
over 150 postings/day, 99% of them garbage, s.c.j. has been rendered
almost useless.
The fire-bombing of Tokyo isn't really all that significant as an
historical or a military event. It's a milestone, in that it brought the
war home to Japan in a way that could not be covered up by the government;
remember, prior to November 1944, the only attack on the Japanese mainland
was Doolittle's 1942 raid.
However, given the iron grip that the militarists have over Japanese
political thought, it really didn't matter what the Japanese people
thought; their feelings never entered into pre-surrender Japanese policy.
The people were expected to do what they were told, and kempeitai thugs
would make sure any expressions of dissent were quickly stamped out.
Nor did it did not drive the Japanese government into anarchy, cause the
abandonment of Tokyo, or significantly impact military morale. It may
have worried Hirohito, but other than expressing a vague desire to end the
war "as soon as possible" he said nothing. The Japanese government *did*
fall on April 5, but that was due to the farcial Miao Pin peace effort.
In terms of slaughter of civilians, the war in China and the Pacific had
already reached much greater lows under the Japanese Army. Japan's own
particular contribution was mass slaughter of an enemy *after* their
surrender; Nanking and Bataan stand out in sharp relief. Then again, the
Korean, Taiwanese, Chinese, and Dutch women forced into prostitution as
"comfort women" probably would have preferred death.
As for "ghoulish", why? 20th century war is all about slaughtering
civilians. I am hard pressed to think of a single war this century in
which civilians didn't get the worst of it. Japanese civilians did not
experience what their government had unleashed until the final 9 months of
the war, and that once the US brought the war home to Japan it proceeded
with the fastest means towards achieving Japan's unconditional surrender.
Advocates of accepting peace with conditions with Japan might note that
this is what was done with Iraq in the Gulf War. Now, 3 1/2 years later,
Iraq's economy is a disaster area; Iraq still has the same oppressive
dictatorship; and Iraq's military is rebuilding. 3 1/2 years after it
surrendered, Japan's economy was in recovery; anti-democratic elements in
the government and many civil organizations had been largely purged; the
Japanese people were exercising freedom of press, speech, thought,
religion, and association for the first time; women were given equal
rights for the first time; and Japan renounced war.
-- Mark --
DoD #0105, R90/6 pilot, FAX: (206) 685-4045 ICBM: N 47 39'35" W 122 18'39"
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
TANAKA Tomoyuki
(please include <alt.flame.charles-eicher> in the
followup, if you want me to read it.)
yesterday i saw the movie "Sense and Sensibility" directed by
Ang Lee. do other people also feel that Ang Lee has received
extremely scant media attention?
i see photos of Emma Thomson everywhere. i saw her also on
David Letterman. the only photo of Ang Lee i saw was in the
"A. Magazine".
have others noticed this, or (as i'm told from time to time)
am i being hyper-sensitive?
;;; (Mr.) TANAKA Tomoyuki (Tanaka is my family name.)
;;;
;;; WWW: http://bronze.ucs.indiana.edu/~tanaka
;;; e-mail: tan...@indiana.edu
Elizabeth A Esser
TANAKA Tomoyuki (tan...@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu) wrote:
: (please include <alt.flame.charles-eicher> in the
: followup, if you want me to read it.)
: yesterday i saw the movie "Sense and Sensibility" directed by
: Ang Lee. do other people also feel that Ang Lee has received
: extremely scant media attention?
: i see photos of Emma Thomson everywhere. i saw her also on
: David Letterman. the only photo of Ang Lee i saw was in the
: "A. Magazine".
Actually there was a good bit of coverage of Ang Lee last
December/January, when the film came out. Not nearly as much as there
was of Emma Thompson, but that's the way it always is. Most people would
rather read about the star of a movie than the director, unless s/he's a
media-hound type a la Tarantino. Ang Lee doesn't strike me as the media
hound type.
Cheers,
Liza
--
********************************************************************
Liza Esser <elizabe...@yale.edu> Save a tree: /\
http://pantheon.cis.yale.edu/~esser/ e-mail instead. /__\
Yale School of Forestry and Environmental Studies ||
********************************************************************
TANAKA Tomoyuki
In article <4mjhk9$1...@kira.cc.uakron.edu>,
David L Burkhead <r3d...@dax.cc.uakron.edu> wrote:
>
>that "yes, Virginia, the Japanese are basically people too."
>
great.
i read in a Time (?) article that when Ang Lee read Jane
Austin's novel "Sense and Sensibility" a few years ago, he
thought, "this is the same thing i've been doing with my films."
(not exact quote)
i remember reading mezon (maison) ikkoku in "BIG COMIC Spirits"
every Monday.
did Takahashi Rumiko say in any interviews if she was influenced
or inspired by Jane Austin's novels?
--------------------------------------------------------------------
many guys around that time said their ideal woman is Kyouko-san.
Neil S. Cumbie
In article <4mior3$q...@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>, tan...@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu (TANAKA Tomoyuki) writes:
>in Crispin's typical post (copy attached below), he notes.
> "The fire-bombing of Tokyo isn't really all that
> significant as an historical or a military event."
If the attached post is suppose to convince anyone that this Crispin guy is an all
out racist bigot who thinks that Japanese lives are worth those of insects, as you
put it, then you definitely failed. I can't say anything about his other posts, having
not read any. Not a single line strikes me as racist. If you read the rest of the
article, that first line about the firebombings being of little historical or military
interest simply is not indicating what you are saying.
Like I have said, I am only accusing your particular attachment as being non-racist, not Mr. Crispin. To me, your statement was definitely taken out of context.
Neil Cumbie
cum...@eng.auburn.edu
James Marken
Neil S. Cumbie wrote:
>
> In article <4mior3$q...@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>, tan...@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu (TANAKA Tomoyuki) writes:
>
> > "The fire-bombing of Tokyo isn't really all that
> > significant as an historical or a military event."
>
> out racist bigot who thinks that Japanese lives are worth those of insects, as you
> put it, then you definitely failed.
I agree; but you know, the good thing about Tanaka is that he includes the original
"offensive" quote, so it's obvious that the poster is innocent.
> I can't say anything about his other posts, having not read any.
I have read as much as I can by (and about) both of these individuals, and in my
opinion Mark Crispin has nothing to apologize for; Tanaka is being over-zealous.
--
_____________________________________________________________
James Marken
jma...@indiana.edu
http://ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu:80/~jmarken/jimpag~1.htm
"The important thing is to ignore data, which complicates life."
-James Watson
_____________________________________________________________
Brian Lam
TANAKA Tomoyuki (tan...@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu) wrote:
> (please include <alt.flame.charles-eicher> in the
> followup, if you want me to read it.)
> yesterday i saw the movie "Sense and Sensibility" directed by
> Ang Lee. do other people also feel that Ang Lee has received
> extremely scant media attention?
> i see photos of Emma Thomson everywhere. i saw her also on
> David Letterman. the only photo of Ang Lee i saw was in the
> "A. Magazine".
I thought he got okay attention. He was in Time's Chinese Movies
Issue and he got a lot of mention in Thompson's "Sense and Sensibility
screenplay/diary". However, Thompson does say some funny things like "he
was desperately foreign" (Leno) and "he's so easy to bully" (from the
diary thing).
Speaking of movies, it's is not surprising how Rumble's American
newspaper ad/poster had no picture of Jackie on it.
Broca
Elizabeth A Esser (es...@minerva.cis.yale.edu) wrote:
: TANAKA Tomoyuki (tan...@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu) wrote:
: : (please include <alt.flame.charles-eicher> in the
: : followup, if you want me to read it.)
:
:
: : yesterday i saw the movie "Sense and Sensibility" directed by
: : Ang Lee. do other people also feel that Ang Lee has received
: : extremely scant media attention?
:
: : i see photos of Emma Thomson everywhere. i saw her also on
: : David Letterman. the only photo of Ang Lee i saw was in the
: : "A. Magazine".
: Actually there was a good bit of coverage of Ang Lee last
: was of Emma Thompson, but that's the way it always is. Most people would
: rather read about the star of a movie than the director, unless s/he's a
: media-hound type a la Tarantino. Ang Lee doesn't strike me as the media
: hound type.
:
: Cheers,
: Liza
: --
:
: ********************************************************************
: Liza Esser <elizabe...@yale.edu> Save a tree: /\
: http://pantheon.cis.yale.edu/~esser/ e-mail instead. /__\
: Yale School of Forestry and Environmental Studies ||
: ********************************************************************
>< About a month ago, New York magazine did an extensive feature on Lee;
a very interesting, well-written profile.
mvem...@acy.digex.net
Mild7s
I have a friend whose uncle is Ang Lee. he said that he was very upset
that he wasn't invited to the Academy Awards. hell, I'd be pissed off too
if I made a number of great films and it seemed like no one was
interested. I'm waiting for Ang Lee and John Woo to team up and do a
Chinese version of the Godfather.
Joan Shields
TANAKA Tomoyuki (tan...@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu) wrote:
>> yesterday i saw the movie "Sense and Sensibility" directed by
>> Ang Lee. do other people also feel that Ang Lee has received
>> extremely scant media attention?
>> i see photos of Emma Thomson everywhere. i saw her also on
>> David Letterman. the only photo of Ang Lee i saw was in the
>> "A. Magazine".
Brian Lam <bl...@chat.carleton.ca> wrote:
> I thought he got okay attention. He was in Time's Chinese Movies
>Issue and he got a lot of mention in Thompson's "Sense and Sensibility
>screenplay/diary". However, Thompson does say some funny things like "he
>was desperately foreign" (Leno) and "he's so easy to bully" (from the
>diary thing).
She also dedicated her Oscar for best adapted screenplay to him and said
that he deserved it more than her.
joan
Matsuura-kun
James Marken <jma...@indiana.edu> wrote:
>Neil S. Cumbie wrote:
>>
>> In article <4mior3$q...@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>, tan...@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu (TANAKA Tomoyuki) writes:
>>
>> > "The fire-bombing of Tokyo isn't really all that
>> > significant as an historical or a military event."
>>
>
>I have read as much as I can by (and about) both of these individuals, and in my
>opinion Mark Crispin has nothing to apologize for; Tanaka is being over-zealous.
I don't have enough information, but the fire-bombing incident is a
sensitive topic for a lot of people you know... I know my Japanese
friends really hate getting into arguments about it because they get
really personal...
It's a matter of national pride... it was the event that caused
Japan to bow its head... and that is an insult...
=========================================================================
Lawrence Wan |Brown Japanese Culture Association Anime Coordinator
PO Box 3054 | Arimi Fan Club, doko?
Brown University | "All knowledge is partial and is a function of the
Providence, RI 02912| knower's lived experience in the world."
tel. (401) 863-6884 | -J.Ann Tickner
=========================================================================
Dragonmaster Lou
tan...@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu (TANAKA Tomoyuki) wrote:
>here are other large-scale massacres:
>
>single events (within a month or so)
>--- Nanking Massacre: 200,000 Chinese killed
>--- Gulf War: 200,000 Iraqis killed
>--- Hiroshima Massacre: over 200,000 Japanese killed
Duh, and how many Americans were killed in a couple hours at Pearl
Harbor? War swings both ways Mr. Tanaka.
---
+-------------- http://www.netspace.org/users/drgnmstr ----------------+
|Dragon...@brown.edu|"Searching for a distant star, heading off to |
|"Dragonmaster Lou" |Iscandar, leaving all we love behind, who knows|
|Technology House |what dangers we'll find..." |
+-------------------ftp://yamato.techhouse.brown.edu-------------------+
Save Our Sailors: Please help keep "Sailor Moon" on the air in the US by
signing the SOS petition at http://looney.physics.sunysb.edu/~daffy/sos/
TANAKA Tomoyuki
> Duh, and how many Americans were killed in a couple hours at
> Pearl Harbor?
before i tell you the answer, why don't you give me
your best guess?
--------------------------------------------------------------------
In article <318ed30a...@news.brown.edu>,
Dragonmaster Lou <Dragon...@brown.edu> wrote:
>
>>here are other large-scale massacres:
>>
>>single events (within a month or so)
>>--- Nanking Massacre: 200,000 Chinese killed
>>--- Gulf War: 200,000 Iraqis killed
>>--- Hiroshima Massacre: over 200,000 Japanese killed
>
Asencio Monroig Cesar
TANAKA Tomoyuki (tan...@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu) wrote:
Hereje , mereces ser quemado en la hoguera .
Has insultado a Maison Ikkokku y a Rumiko Takahashi .
Como has osado ? Disculpate ahora mismo o la ira de Songokuu caera sobre ti .
Translation to english :
Hereje ( i don't know how to translate this ), you must die burning .
You have insult to Maison Ikkoku & Rumiko Takahashi .
How did you dare ? Apologize at the moment or Songokuu's punish will fall over you .
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Naci en este mundo , este mundo tan cruel
y vi las mujeres que viven en el
son todas preciosas , que puedo yo hacer
morenas y rubias y pelirrojas tambien .
TOM BOMBADIL .
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CESAR ASENCIO MONROIG
DIRECTOR DE MANGAVICIO EL FANZINE
al00...@alumail.uji.es
CASTELLON
ESPAÑA
PLANETA TIERRA
Seth Friedman
On 6 May 1996 22:38:58 GMT, Matsuura-kun <Y...@brown.edu> wrote:
>James Marken <jma...@indiana.edu> wrote:
>>Neil S. Cumbie wrote:
>>>
>>> In article <4mior3$q...@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>, tan...@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu (TANAKA Tomoyuki) writes:
>>>
>>> >in Crispin's typical post (copy attached below), he notes.
>>> > "The fire-bombing of Tokyo isn't really all that
>>> > significant as an historical or a military event."
>>>
>>> I can't say anything about his other posts, having not read any.
>>
>>I have read as much as I can by (and about) both of these individuals, and in my
>>opinion Mark Crispin has nothing to apologize for; Tanaka is being over-zealous.
>
> I don't have enough information, but the fire-bombing incident is a
>sensitive topic for a lot of people you know... I know my Japanese
>friends really hate getting into arguments about it because they get
>really personal...
> It's a matter of national pride... it was the event that caused
>Japan to bow its head... and that is an insult...
Where is the insult? Whether or not he is right or wrong regarding
the supposed significance of the event, the discussion of past events,
the dredging up of unpleasent memories is not in itself insulting.
The "event that caused Japan to bow its head?" The whole damn war, for
its inception in 1931 should be enough for Japan to bow its head. The
above post is just a continuation of the "Japan as victim" routine,
*that is insulting* to the millions of people, primarily Chinese and
Korean, whose lives were shortened by Japan's actions.
Seth Friedman
frie...@gol.com
Seth Friedman
On 29 Apr 1996 18:17:25 GMT, tan...@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu (TANAKA
Tomoyuki) wrote:
> (please include <alt.flame.charles-eicher> in the
> followup, if you want me to read it.)
Well, are you making up your own rules? Why don't you stay on those
two groups? Why post here if you won't read here?
>there was a white guy named Mark Crispin who used to call us
>(Japanese and Japanese Americans) "Japs" (see below) and post
>all kinds of racist rubbish on <soc.culture.japan>.
Oh, you mean like racist labels such as "white guy?" I'm starting to
wonder who is a bigger hypocrite, you or HappyFace.
Instead of a CFV for SCJM, why don't we have one to decide who is a
more blatant hypocrite? I'll start the voting...
My vote goes for Tanaka.
HappyFace just tries to hank everyone's strings, Tanaka is for real.
>he was also an anime otaku.
So?
You're a senseless, "only been wrong once," I'll threaten to sue
anyone who disagrees with me, paranoid, unobjective, bigoted,
pretentious, arrogant expatriate aho otaku who can't stop slamming the
people who have welcomed him to their country.
>what happened to him?
>did the PC (political correctness) police put him away?
They should be after you.
>i'll continue re-posting this message from time to time
>until:
>(1) Mr Crispin states something that indicates that sending such
> a message is wrong; and
When are you planning on admitting that:
1. The U.S. has not started *any* war with a surprise attack.
2. Murayama's 1995 "apology" was not uniformly accepted.
3. Reuters is not a U.S. company.
4. Tokyo is one of the world's most expensive cities to live in.
5. Rap music is popular in Japan.
6. There are Americans who are fluent in Japanese.
7. Japanese cities are among the most crowded in the world.
8. The U.S. didn't attack Cuba.
9. You have been wrong more than once.
>(2) Mr Crispin stops posting articles expressing racial/ethnic
> hatred toward Japanese people.
Hey bud, why don't you stop expressing racial/ethnic hatred towards
those who have the discipline and knowledge to hold you accountable
for your untruths, half-truths, and fabrications. In addition, read
your own so-called FAQ's, they are filled with racial/ethnic hatred
towards America, and the American people.
Like I said, you get my vote.
Seth Friedman
frie...@gol.com
Brian L. Robinson
In article <318ed30a...@news.brown.edu> Dragon...@brown.edu writes:
>tan...@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu (TANAKA Tomoyuki) wrote:
>
>>here are other large-scale massacres:
>>
>>single events (within a month or so)
>>--- Nanking Massacre: 200,000 Chinese killed
>>--- Gulf War: 200,000 Iraqis killed
>>--- Hiroshima Massacre: over 200,000 Japanese killed
>
>Harbor? War swings both ways Mr. Tanaka.
Please continue posting. Your response to Mr. Tanaka provides an
invaluable service. We all know that America's schools have
deteriorated to the point that a hamster could make straight A's,
particularly in history. But so far we have not had the public outcry
necessary to create real momentum for changing our schools. Your
continued posting would be a great benefit by reminding people just
how terrible our schools are.
BTW, I don't have the exact figures, but I would bet that less than
5,000 Americans were killed at Pearl Harbor. And unless it was during
the Civil War, I think you would have a hard time coming up with any
event, in war or otherwise, where more than 100,000 Americans were
killed at one time. Compare that to the 200,000 casualties at each of
the events above.
But anyway, the Gulf War was war carried out primarily against
military targets, with civilians being hit only through accident or
because the military target could not be destroyed without hitting
civilians too. The A-Bomb was an act carried out in order to end the
war before even more than 200,000+ casualties were incurred by an
invasion.
Nanjing, on the other hand, involved a lot of killing of civilians
with no military objectives.
>+-------------- http://www.netspace.org/users/drgnmstr ----------------+
>|Dragon...@brown.edu|"Searching for a distant star, heading off to |
>|"Dragonmaster Lou" |Iscandar, leaving all we love behind, who knows|
>|Technology House |what dangers we'll find..." |
>+-------------------ftp://yamato.techhouse.brown.edu-------------------+
>
>Save Our Sailors: Please help keep "Sailor Moon" on the air in the US by
>signing the SOS petition at http://looney.physics.sunysb.edu/~daffy/sos/
--
In this country we have adulterers, smokers, lawyers, drug addicts,
fornicators, gangsters, racist police, liberals, wife beaters, liars, a
president, tax cheaters, robbers, rapists, con artists and murderers.
With so many real problems, how can you waste your time hating homosexuals?
Dragonmaster Lou
tan...@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu (TANAKA Tomoyuki) wrote:
>
>> Duh, and how many Americans were killed in a couple hours at
>> Pearl Harbor?
>
>before i tell you the answer, why don't you give me
>your best guess?
The number was not the point though. The point was that what Japan
did at Pearl Harbor, attacking a country it was not at war with, was
just as bad as anything the U.S. did to it. War is war. All
countries have done bad things in war, and people involved often
regret it. You also have to remember how the Japanese treated
American POWs too. Tell me that wasn't cruel and inhumane.
---
Sean Conley
In <4mml0d$o...@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> tan...@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu
(TANAKA Tomoyuki) writes:
>
>
>> Duh, and how many Americans were killed in a couple hours at
>> Pearl Harbor?
>
>before i tell you the answer, why don't you give me
>your best guess?
Ladies and Gentlemen-
It sounds to me like we have one frustrated Samurai warrior on our
hands. Born just a couple of decades too late to experience a glorious
death at the hands of a couple of 20 year old Marines. Of course he
strikes me as one of those types that would have never seen the front
lines because he was too important to the Emperor so he would have been
stuck committing atrocities against defenseless POWs on the Home
Islands and slapping around Korean Comfort Women to prove his
masculinity (or lack thereof). Problem is that today we have made it
too easy to wage war, noone is at fault and the gamble is not that
great. OLD WAY: Lose war, lose country and everything else. NEW WAY:
Lose war, collect economic stimulus package, rebuild sagging economy
for next limited scale war. You guys lost, we rebuilt you as our very
own Japanese colony, say thank you and shut up.
TANAKA Tomoyuki
>>
>>> Duh, and how many Americans were killed in a couple hours at
>>> Pearl Harbor?
>>
the answer is shown below.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
MYTH: the Pearl Harbor attack was sneaky and unfair.
THE TRUTH:
in a forthcoming article (see (bibliography)) I will show the
fallacy of this propaganda and myth.
very briefly, the bases of my arguments are as follows:
[1] beginning a war with a surprise attack, without (or before)
a declaration is the way the USA and Japan have usually
fought wars. all surprise attacks are sneaky. the Pearl
Harbor attack was no more sneaky or unfair than the US
surprise attacks on Native Americans, Cuba (1961), and
Grenada (1983).
[2] the attack was not a surprise to the US politicians.
[3] it is false that the Pearl Harbor attack was successful
only because it was a surprise attack.
(many Americans believe that Japanese can outperform
Americans only by cheating.)
[4] some people seem to believe that the Pearl Harbor attack
was unusually savage or cruel. that is completely false.
the attack was a precise maneuver targeting only military
installations. of the approximately 2400 Americans killed
in the attack, 68 were civilians, almost all of whom were
employees of the military. later US bombings of Japanese
cities resulted in about 1 million deaths of Japanese
civilians.
it is completely understandable that such unfair propaganda
(promoting the idea of "evil, sneaky Japs" using the
example of the Pearl Harbor attack)
was used during the war. it is NOT reasonable that this
propaganda is still going on TODAY, decades after the war.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
MYTH: Japan sweeps history under the carpet.
[...]
WiseOne
tan...@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu (TANAKA Tomoyuki) wrote:
-- Snipped --
> it is completely understandable that such unfair propaganda
> (promoting the idea of "evil, sneaky Japs" using the
> example of the Pearl Harbor attack)
> was used during the war. it is NOT reasonable that this
> propaganda is still going on TODAY, decades after the war.
War is Hell, and no one side of WWII can be called more cruel than
the other. Sure, the attack on Pearl Harbor by the Japanese was a
surprise to many, but in the eyes of the Japanese, it was a successful
tactical strike. Would we, as Americans, look at the situation any
differently if the shoe was on the other foot? I doubt it..
Unfair? Of course not. What is unfair in War? There are plenty of
rules and regulations the World Governments try to enforce during
Wars, but when it all comes down to it, everything is pretty much fair
game with it comes to War. Whatever it takes to win.
Those who continue to to accuse Japanese people of being sneaky,
unfair or cheaters are the same people who watch Sony televisons,
listen to Hitachi radios and drive Nissan cars... Oh, please....
TANAKA Tomoyuki
>
> It would've been interesting to see what would've happened if the
>Pearl Harbor forces had been prepared for the Japanese attack. It's
>true that many Americans perceive Asians as sneaky in general, but
>most probably the Japanese forces would've gotten smeared if Pearl
>Harbor were awake.
>
MYTH: the attack was successful only because it was a surprise.
(many Americans believe that Japanese can outperform
Americans only by cheating.)
from Tom Burnam, "Dictionary of Misinformation" (Crowell, 1975):
Pearl Harbor and the sitting-duck theory.
Firmly fixed in the popular consciousness is a belief
that had the Japanese not caught the Americans
flat-footed at Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941, the
loss of ships and men would have been much less. But as
Leo Rosten said in "World" magazine (Aug. 1, 1972),
after Fleet Admiral Chester Nimitz, the exact reverse is
the case. Bad as Pearl Harbor was, had the Pacific
Fleet been at sea it would have faced a Japanese Carrier
Task Force the speed of whose ships was at least two
knots greater than that of the American ships; the
American would have had little if any air cover (one
carrier, which could scarcely have arrived in time,
against six Japanese carriers); and instead of being
lost in shallow water from which ships could be --- and
were --- raised and repaired, all losses would have been
irrevocable. Further, and most important, far fewer men
were lost precisely because, in Rosen's words, "they
*were* in the harbor."
Matsuura-kun
frie...@gol.com (Seth Friedman) wrote:
>On 6 May 1996 22:38:58 GMT, Matsuura-kun <Y...@brown.edu> wrote:
>
>>sensitive topic for a lot of people you know... I know my Japanese
>>friends really hate getting into arguments about it because they get
>>really personal...
>> It's a matter of national pride... it was the event that caused
>>Japan to bow its head... and that is an insult...
>
>Where is the insult?
Everybody lost during the war, and to the Japanese, this event was
their symbol of loss and tragedy.
>the discussion of past events,
>the dredging up of unpleasent memories is not in itself insulting.
No, it is not... but human emotions get in the way nonetheless.
>The "event that caused Japan to bow its head?" The whole damn war, for
>its inception in 1931 should be enough for Japan to bow its head. The
>above post is just a continuation of the "Japan as victim" routine,
>*that is insulting* to the millions of people, primarily Chinese and
>Korean, whose lives were shortened by Japan's actions.
I AM Chinese and without the war, I would now be a farmer near the
outskirts of Shanghai. I am not saying who is right or wrong, but what
people feel, and you are right that everyone has a position to feel angry
about lots of different things about the war. I'm just saying that this
is what ticks some Japanese people.
Japanese are a victim, and so are others. Now would Japanese feel
more sorry for Chinese? It's just a matter of national pride. I have no
understanding of that concept and I think national pride limits a lot of
people in their views.
Obviously Tanaka-san's protest of Mark Crispin was overboard... but
I'm just saying that he probably got ticked off because they got on the
topic that his country "lost"... but I'm not saying his actions are
right, just not without reason.
INCIDENT REMEMBERED:
One of my friends was in a class. No one paid attention. This one
Asian kid was talking to friends. The professor asked him to be quiet
and from what country he was from. The retort: "THE COUNTRY YOU BOMBED."
Has to do with pride? Somewhat, the Japanese guy was insulted that
a mere American wanted to embarass him in front of everybody? Maybe...
or maybe just looking for attention... who knows... it's the way the
world is.
PAUL D. CHAPIN
TANAKA Tomoyuki (tan...@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu) wrote:
: MYTH: the Pearl Harbor attack was sneaky and unfair.
: THE TRUTH:
: [1] beginning a war with a surprise attack, without (or before)
: a declaration is the way the USA and Japan have usually
: fought wars.
But not the way most of the nations started either WWI or WWII, which
were usually declared first; Germany's attack on Russia in WWII being
an obvious exception. Furthermore, the US declared the War of 1812,
the War with Mexico, the Spanish American War and WWI and WWII before
starting major campaigns. All of this lead to the expectation of a
declaration before the start of hostilities, at least in the minds of
the public. What we don't declare are small wars against military
minor powers. More recently we've pretty much stopped declaring wars
at all for a variety of political and legal reasons, settling instead
for legally vague Congressional resolutions, i.e., Gulf of Tonkin
Resolution and the resolution before the Gulf War.
: [2] the attack was not a surprise to the US politicians.
An attack was no surprise to the US administration - most of Congress
was probably clueless but that's no real surprise. An attack on Pearl
clearly was. The US was expecting the strike much further West. The
Pearl attack was both daring and technically difficult. Even with the
cable intercepts the US military didn't realize that an attack on the
Pearl was imminent. The US clearly underestimated Japan's technical
ability and its resources since Japan effectively attacked several
places at once.
: [3] it is false that the Pearl Harbor attack was successful
: only because it was a surprise attack.
Clearly the extent of the success was in part due to the surprise.
Japan's own war games, which assumed they would be discovered before
the attack, were much less successful. It's unreasonable to assume
that surprise doesn't add to your success. And given the significant
defenses of Hawaii, it's hard to see how Japan could have gotten more
than a draw if the US was waiting for them, even given their clear
superiority in aircraft and torpedo quality.
: [4] some people seem to believe that the Pearl Harbor attack
: was unusually savage or cruel.
This depends on your reaction to [1]. Killing people as they sleep
while they think they're at peace would generally be considered
savage or cruel. This is why the US was so upset about the lack of
declaration. Within the context of a war, however, you're correct.
: --------------------------------------------------------------------
: MYTH: Japan sweeps history under the carpet.
I'll let the Koreans and Chinese deal with this. They're more upset
about it than the US is.
--
Paul Chapin
Unix Systems Manager
Amherst College
Chris C. Lesley
TANAKA Tomoyuki (tan...@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu) wrote:
: >>
: >>> Duh, and how many Americans were killed in a couple hours at
: >>> Pearl Harbor?
: >>
: the answer is shown below.
: --------------------------------------------------------------------
: MYTH: the Pearl Harbor attack was sneaky and unfair.
: THE TRUTH:
: in a forthcoming article (see (bibliography)) I will show the
: fallacy of this propaganda and myth.
: very briefly, the bases of my arguments are as follows:
: [1] beginning a war with a surprise attack, without (or before)
: a declaration is the way the USA and Japan have usually
: fought wars. all surprise attacks are sneaky. the Pearl
: Harbor attack was no more sneaky or unfair than the US
: surprise attacks on Native Americans, Cuba (1961), and
: Grenada (1983).
True.
: [2] the attack was not a surprise to the US politicians.
Not quite true; all the clues were there, but the US officials involved
didn't pick up on it. They refused to believe something like that could
happen; that was their downfall.
: [3] it is false that the Pearl Harbor attack was successful
: only because it was a surprise attack.
: (many Americans believe that Japanese can outperform
: Americans only by cheating.)
False. The Japanese took an ENORMOUS risk; if at ANY point in their
crossing of the Pacific they had been spotted, they would have been blown
out of the water by land-based bombers out of Pearl, or Wake, or Midway,
etc. The miracle is that it was a surprise at all, and is the ONLY
reason it was effective, or at least cheap in terms of losses.
Your gratuitous assumption about the beliefs of "many" Americans is worse
than false; it is prejudicial.
: [4] some people seem to believe that the Pearl Harbor attack
: was unusually savage or cruel. that is completely false.
: the attack was a precise maneuver targeting only military
: installations. of the approximately 2400 Americans killed
: in the attack, 68 were civilians, almost all of whom were
: employees of the military. later US bombings of Japanese
: cities resulted in about 1 million deaths of Japanese
: civilians.
True; I do not consider the Pearl Harbor attack to be unusually savage or
cruel. It was an act of war. But I must ask: was the Rape of Nanking a
"precise military maneuver targeting only military installations"?
Pointing a finger at the US only points three at Japan.
Why don't you talk about the Japanese program to build an atomic bomb?
Would the Japanese military have been reluctant to use it? I strongly
doubt it...
: it is completely understandable that such unfair propaganda
: (promoting the idea of "evil, sneaky Japs" using the
: example of the Pearl Harbor attack)
: was used during the war. it is NOT reasonable that this
: propaganda is still going on TODAY, decades after the war.
There was a huge debate in my home town, Lafayette, IN, about declaring a
state highway the "Bataan Memorial Highway." Why? The highway ran right
in front of a Subaru-Isuzu car factory. The veterans and veteran
organizations in Lafayette vehemently opposed it; then, after everyone
realized the economic benefits of having such a large employer in
Lafayette, the ruckus quickly died off.
My point is this: the "propaganda" you are talking about comes mostly
from veterans of that war, and not much from anywhere else. The economic
benefits of dealing with the Japanese will always win out over bigotry.
: MYTH: Japan sweeps history under the carpet.
How many Japanese schoolchildren are taught about the Japanese atomic
bomb program? I'm not saying you're wrong, but inquiring minds want to
know...
C.
--
Chris Lesley
"Heaven wheels above you, displaying to you her eternal glories,
and still your eyes are on the ground." --- Dante Alighieri
Craig L Wigda
In article <318fdab9...@news.brown.edu>,
Dragonmaster Lou <Dragon...@brown.edu> wrote:
>tan...@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu (TANAKA Tomoyuki) wrote:
>
>>
>>> Duh, and how many Americans were killed in a couple hours at
>>> Pearl Harbor?
>>
>>your best guess?
>
>did at Pearl Harbor, attacking a country it was not at war with, was
>just as bad as anything the U.S. did to it. War is war. All
>countries have done bad things in war, and people involved often
>regret it. You also have to remember how the Japanese treated
>American POWs too. Tell me that wasn't cruel and inhumane.
>
>---
If I remember correctly, Japan had the ambasator in Washington deliver
the declaration of war. Due to an error on his part it was delievered
after the attack. If I have my information correct he was to issue the
declaration about 20 to 60 minutes before the attack on Peral Harbor
started. This ment that the Japanese planes were in the air and on the
way when he WAS to deliver the message. Due to a problem (this is where
my memory is not to clear, was it a miss in the time the fleet launched
or was he delaied for another reason) he did not deliver the message
until after the attack was under way. I remember seeing some old news
footage of the Japanese ambasator leaving the White House looking very
shaken and unhappy (he had failed to deliver the message as his government
requested and due to his failure the attack on Peral Harbor was not the
first battle of the war but the cause of the war).
As for the American POWs, I can not comment on the condition that they
were treated. Most likely they were not treated well due to lack of
supplies and what not. This is the standard case in most wars, the good
food and medical supplies got to your troops and the left overs go to
the POWs. The POWs of any war have my thanks for their service in the war
and I pray that they can leave the scars of the imprisonment behind them.
As for the US bombing the cities of Japan during World War II, it was
a hard call. Again this is based on my less then perfect memory.
If I remember correctly, the US thought long and hard before dropping the
A-bomb on Japan. They new they would kill a vary large number of civilian
people in such bombings. But they were also trying to end the war. The
problem was they figured they could beat Japan in a conventional war but
that it would take months and maybe years. During this time, the country
would still on a war type footing for the economy, even thought much of
Eurpoe would be returning to a civil economy. Was the cost of ending the
war conventionally worth the lives of the men and the dollars needed to
get them to the battle field? They answered that question when they dropped
the bomb. Even if they had not dropped the A-bomb they would have had to bomb
the ship and plane factories in Japan to end the war. So, either way people
would have did.
In war people die, that is why they call it a war. The important thing to
remember is to try and avoid war in the future. I for one am very glade
that the US and Japan are on friendly terms now.
CLW
==============================================================================
| |
| Doing my part to spread Anime, by raising my children to love Anime. |
| |
==============================================================================
| |
| Increase the Entropy in the Universe, Have Children. |
| |
==============================================================================
Matsuura-kun
cle...@mesa5.Mesa.Colorado.EDU (Chris C. Lesley) wrote:
>
>
>gratuitous assumption about beliefs of "many" Americans is worse
Prejudicial assumptions? "many" Americans ARE, in fact, ignorant
of other cultures and cultural values... hence, a simplified assumption
of the other kind. In fact, "many" Americans are not as educated in the
area of appreciation of other cultural values. Likewise for other
members of other nations... unless you run into a TCK, of course (Third
Culture Kid, simplified definition = students who moved from one
international school to another many times)
> It was an act of war. But I must ask: was the Rape of Nanking a
>"precise military maneuver targeting only military installations"?
No morals are applicable during times of war.
>Why don't you talk about the Japanese program to build an atomic bomb?
>Would the Japanese military have been reluctant to use it? I strongly
>doubt it...
Speculation... but FACT: US _did_ use it...
--
Matsuura-kun
pdch...@unix.amherst.edu (PAUL D. CHAPIN) wrote:
>TANAKA Tomoyuki (tan...@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu) wrote:
>
>
>about it than the US is.
This is a chinese speaking (does that make me more justified to
deal with the issue?[rhetorical question]): How many times have Chinese
swept history under their carpet? Every seen "Iron and Silk"?
If the Chinese or Koreans were in place of the Japanese, I doubt
they wouldn't have acted in the same ways... We are all East Asians, but
we are many kinds as well... maybe stereotyped as quiet and modest, but
we can be vicious when need be.
If it weren't for the war (and the Japanese kicking my grandfather
out of Shanghai), he'd never be a successful businessman in Hong Kong and
I wouldn't be here right now... I'd just be a farmer on the outskirts of
Shanghai...
Being upset is just national pride... a great barrier to being
open-minded... I have a friend here who feels "weird" taking Japanese
class... he said it feels like learning the enemy's language... please...
Adam Marshall
Chris C. Lesley wrote:
>alot.<
I disagree. The attack was cruel and sneaky. Most any attack made in the
mind to conquer is. It was NOT RIGHT. I also think that the atomic bomb
should have never been used. Not only for the benefit of the Japanese,
but the whole world. We are all going to die earlier than we should
because of poisons that were virtually nonexistent before 1944. Atomic
weapons are EVIL and WRONG. Period. This goes for everyone who has ever
even considered them. Even Japan (despite the fact they had no atomic
program worth mentioning, do you think they would have not developed it
if they had as many scientist as the US had? Don't kid yourself. And if
Germany had discovered it in time, they would have rallied round, hoping
to fufil the agreement of being a part of the ruling empire the NAzi's
were to establish. Japan would have got burned there, too. Oops,
rambling.). War is evil, and should not be called upon to pass judgement
on people who had little or no part in it.
--
_________________________
>>>>>>Adam Marshall<<<<<<
Kul...@citynet.net
Very Proud Member of the >"You think I only care<
Dragon Ball Liberation Front >about sex! You're wrong! I<
>care about drugs, too!"<
>-Me, in a teenage<
>arguement with mom<
>"Am I cold? No! My hate<
>keeps me warm!"-Mark Thomas<
Lawrence Eng
In article Peter Evans --V-- <ev...@netural.com> writes:
>> TRUTH: -Every- country sweeps history under the carpet, and Japan is no
>> exception.
>Mexico never forgot how we took half their land and gave them 15 mil for
>it, when now its worth trillions. Japan has never, and will NEVER
>forget the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. People will always
>remember.
I think the previous poster meant to say, every country "selectively" sweeps
history under the carpet. Oppression is most often "remembered" by the
oppressed, not the oppressors.
.
+---------------------------------------------------+----------------+
|Lawrence Eng "COQUETTISH BOMBER!"-Pretty Sammy |Hung Gar:SKFAC |
|Co-founder and member of the |anime-manga:CJAS|
|Sasami Appreciation Society (#SAS#) |PlantBiology:ALS|
|-send application requests to le...@cornell.edu |Smiths/Morrissey|
| or lawren...@cornell.edu |"The World!"-Dio|
+---------------------------------------------------+----------------+
Neil S. Cumbie
In article <4mort2$r...@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>, tan...@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu (TANAKA Tomoyuki) writes:
(snip)
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------
> MYTH: the Pearl Harbor attack was sneaky and unfair.
>
> THE TRUTH:
> in a forthcoming article (see (bibliography)) I will show the
> fallacy of this propaganda and myth.
Since you are the originator of this post, I'll tell this to you. Though the arguments you
are making are worth the amount of discussion they are receiving on this newsgroup.
******THIS NEWSGROUP IS FOR JAPANESE ANIMATION, NOT JAPANESE/U.S/MILITARY HISTORY.*******
If I wanted to read or contribute to such a discussion, I would most likely subscribe to the
appropriate newsgroup. I responded to you once because I didn't realize that you were going
to continue this crap. So can you please show a little respect........
Neil Cumbie
cum...@eng.auburn.edu
Nausicaa
In article <4mr4a2$h...@cocoa.brown.edu>, Y...@brown.edu says...
>cle...@mesa5.Mesa.Colorado.EDU (Chris C. Lesley) wrote:
>>gratuitous assumption about beliefs of "many" Americans is
worse
>>than false; it is prejudicial.
>
> Prejudicial assumptions? "many" Americans ARE, in fact,
ignorant
>of other cultures and cultural values... hence, a simplified
assumption
>of the other kind. In fact, "many" Americans are not as
educated in the
>area of appreciation of other cultural values. Likewise for
other
>members of other nations... unless you run into a TCK, of course
(Third
>Culture Kid, simplified definition = students who moved from one
>international school to another many times)
>
>> It was an act of war. But I must ask: was the Rape of Nanking
a
>>"precise military maneuver targeting only military
installations"?
> No morals are applicable during times of war.
I hate to be involved in this type of debate, especially
with Chinese.
"No moral are applicable during times of war"???????? You
mean that killing civilian in war is normal, by using sabre to
cut the human heads out? I really wonder if you have any sort of
morality!
>>Why don't you talk about the Japanese program to build an
atomic bomb?
>>Would the Japanese military have been reluctant to use it? I
strongly
>>doubt it...
> Speculation... but FACT: US _did_ use it...
If Japanese did make it, it would have used it first. It
is not just speculation.
And do you know if US did not use atomic bomb, what would
happen? A PROLONGED WAR! US would land on the soil of Japan and
more people would die.
>================================================================
=========
>Lawrence Wan |Brown Japanese Culture Association Anime
Coordinator
>PO Box 3054 | Arimi Fan Club, doko?
>Brown University | "All knowledge is partial and is a
function of the
>Providence, RI 02912| knower's lived experience in the world."
>tel. (401) 863-6884 | -J.Ann
Tickner
>================================================================
Ha ha... Loving watching Anime also means loving all
aspects of Japan?
Nausicaa
In article <4mrio3$1...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, heave...@aol.com
says...
>In article <4mqs9g$1...@mesa5.mesa.colorado.edu>,
>cle...@mesa5.Mesa.Colorado.EDU (Chris C. Lesley) writes:
>>: MYTH: Japan sweeps history under the carpet.
>TRUTH: -Every- country sweeps history under the carpet, and
Japan is no
>exception.
And Japan did begin the war!
China lost at least 15 million human life.
Russia lost 20+ million
How many japs died?
Kenji (in exile)
Whoa there! No derogatory comments towards any groups please!
Over 140,000 Okinawans died as a result of WWII.
Bruce Lewis
Peter Evans --V-- <ev...@netural.com> wrote:
>Japan has never, and will NEVER
>forget the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. People will always
>remember.
Then please ask them to remember the Bataan
Death March as well.
************************************************
Bruce Lewis
Studio Go! Multimedia
Manhattan Projects Multimedia
************************************************
My opinionå–«t ain't necessarily Go!'s
************************************************
Producers of STAR BLAZERS MAGAZINE
and other quality publications.
************************************************
Celebrate Insectoid-American Heritage Day!
"It's Great to be a Gray!" 7 July 1996
************************************************
Brian L. Robinson
In article <4mp48l$a...@globe.indirect.com> wise...@indirect.com (WiseOne) writes:
>tan...@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu (TANAKA Tomoyuki) wrote:
>
> -- Snipped --
>
>> (promoting the idea of "evil, sneaky Japs" using the
>> example of the Pearl Harbor attack)
>> was used during the war. it is NOT reasonable that this
>> propaganda is still going on TODAY, decades after the war.
>
>
>
>the other. Sure, the attack on Pearl Harbor by the Japanese was a
>surprise to many, but in the eyes of the Japanese, it was a successful
>tactical strike. Would we, as Americans, look at the situation any
>differently if the shoe was on the other foot? I doubt it..
Indeed. Consider George Washington's capture of 700 Hessian troops on
Christmas.
>
> Unfair? Of course not. What is unfair in War? There are plenty of
>rules and regulations the World Governments try to enforce during
>Wars, but when it all comes down to it, everything is pretty much fair
>game with it comes to War. Whatever it takes to win.
>
> Those who continue to to accuse Japanese people of being sneaky,
>unfair or cheaters are the same people who watch Sony televisons,
>listen to Hitachi radios and drive Nissan cars... Oh, please....
The only thing sneaky is when they come back 50 years later and tell
us we were being unfair because we retaliated.
Jim Gi Tsou
In article <4mr4a2$h...@cocoa.brown.edu>, Matsuura-kun <Y...@brown.edu> wrote:
>
> No morals are applicable during times of war.
Does this mean the NAZIs and the Japanese are equally as immoral as the
Allied forces?
>>Why don't you talk about the Japanese program to build an atomic bomb?
>>Would the Japanese military have been reluctant to use it? I strongly
>>doubt it...
>
> Speculation... but FACT: US _did_ use it...
What goes around comes around eh? Such is the price you pay for starting
a war. The Japanese government is the one should be held responsible for
the death of its citizens, not the US.
-
Jim Gi Tsou
In article <319188...@citynet.net>,
Adam Marshall <Kul...@citynet.net> wrote:
>Chris C. Lesley wrote:
>
>>alot.<
>
>I disagree. The attack was cruel and sneaky. Most any attack made in the
>mind to conquer is. It was NOT RIGHT. I also think that the atomic bomb
>should have never been used. Not only for the benefit of the Japanese,
>but the whole world. We are all going to die earlier than we should
>because of poisons that were virtually nonexistent before 1944. Atomic
>weapons are EVIL and WRONG. Period.
Such a simplistic view of the world.
-
Matsuura-kun
chung...@mailserv.cuhk.hk (Nausicaa) wrote:
>In article <4mr4a2$h...@cocoa.brown.edu>, Y...@brown.edu says...
>
>
>> No morals are applicable during times of war.
>
>with Chinese.
>
> "No moral are applicable during times of war"???????? You
>mean that killing civilian in war is normal, by using sabre to
>cut the human heads out? I really wonder if you have any sort of
>morality!
It's OK about being Chinese, we are probably different types of
Chinese... I'm originally Shanghainess moved to Hong Kong and now to
US...
About the morals... what I meant was that it is so easy to sit here
on our ass on cushioned seats in an AC room with a luxurious computer and
criticize past actions with hindsight. War creates complex situations.
People, probably even you, would behave differently. True, the rape of
Nanking was terrible, but the attrocities of war are consequences in and
of itself. Killing civilians is not normal, but it is during war because
that sort of shit does happen.
That's why I feel sorry for war criminals as well... kill to
survive, but when society restores law and order, humanity jumps up a
notch in being civil again. You do what you can (and I'm not talking
about the rape of Nanking) to survive, and even take advantage of what
you can since you don't know if you'll live another day (the also
traumatizing psychology during war). Suddenly, thrown back into society
where everyone is moral, everyone condemns vicious acts of survival or
vicious instinctive acts during complicated times, it's a bit unnerving.
Again, it is easy for us to sit here and judge with hindsight. We
weren't there, we just judge...
> And do you know if US did not use atomic bomb, what would
>happen? A PROLONGED WAR! US would land on the soil of Japan and
>more people would die.
No... less Japanese would've died, especially civilians. More US
people would've died... that's the usual justification for dropping the
bomb... to save US lives, not Japanese lives.
Anyway, what's done is done so speculation is really quite
pointless. What did happen is what counts.
> Ha ha... Loving watching Anime also means loving all
>aspects of Japan?
No... that's why I'm wondering what the hell is this topic doing in
rec.arts.anime... hmmm....
--
=========================================================================
Lawrence Wan |Brown Japanese Culture Association Anime Coordinator
PO Box 3054 | Arimi Fan Club, doko?
Brown University | "All knowledge is partial and is a function of the
Providence, RI 02912| knower's lived experience in the world."
tel. (401) 863-6884 | -J.Ann Tickner
=========================================================================
Matsuura-kun
chung...@mailserv.cuhk.hk (Nausicaa) wrote:
> And Japan did begin the war!
>
> China lost at least 15 million human life.
> Russia lost 20+ million
>
> How many japs died?
Why argue for a just cause and then use the word "japs"?
Intentional or not, some may get offended... Just because some Japanese
politicians became ambitious, means it's all their fault? All the lives
lost... if one country loses more lives than Japan, then there isn't
tragedy in Japan? Japan also suffered, regardless of who is to blame.
The world is to blame. Pride is to blame. Human nature is to blame.
Then is God to be blamed? Or is he just _testing_ us? Complicated
issues go beyond pointing fingers and calculating figures.
Larry Elie
In article <31915...@netural.com> Peter Evans --V-- <ev...@netural.com> writes:
>From: Peter Evans --V-- <ev...@netural.com>
>Subject: Re: MYTH: the Pearl Harbor attack was sneaky and unfair.
>Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 21:17:37 -0500
>In war, anything goes. If you can attack someone and cause huge losses
>on their side without nearly as much damage on yours, you'd do it
>because it'd put you that much closer to victory in the war. And when
>the losers lose, terrible things happen. But then, thats war.
>>
>> TRUTH: -Every- country sweeps history under the carpet, and Japan is no
>> exception.
>Mexico never forgot how we took half their land and gave them 15 mil for
>it, when now its worth trillions. Japan has never, and will NEVER
>forget the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. People will always
>remember.
But the US will forget that the Marines took Mexico City by force (unless
people remember the 'Halls of Montazooma' line in the Marine Hymn...), and
then after helping set up a puppet govenment, left. I think leaving was very
unique. Most folk who take a capital city tend to try to keep it. I wish
this silly thread would DIE! Personification of countries anywhere is just
plain silly. Countries are made up of people. Some people are good, some are
bad. If most of the PEOPLE in the leadership of a country for some period of
time are bad, than the country might be assumed to ACT bad.
James Marken
Dangit, I swore to myself that I was off this thread. Oh well.
Note the followup: people complain about this thread being in the anime
groups, where it clearly doesn't belong, but they just leave it in. Go
figure. I also took out the Eicher groups.
Matsuura-kun wrote:
>
> No... less Japanese would've died, especially civilians. More US
> people would've died... that's the usual justification for dropping the
> bomb... to save US lives, not Japanese lives.
True that the primary consideration in deciding to drop the bomb was
saving U.S. lives, but I don't think it's so easy to say that fewer
Japanese civilians would have died. After all, Japan was busy putting a
pointed bamboo stick in the hands of every housewife and school kid in the
nation, and telling them to kill at least one American. Japan was prepared
to fight to the end, turning every civilian into a soldier. There surely
would have been many casualties.
--
_____________________________________________________________
James Marken
jma...@indiana.edu
http://ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu:80/~jmarken/jimpag~1.htm
"The important thing is to ignore data, which complicates life."
-James Watson
_____________________________________________________________
Dragonmaster Lou
tan...@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu (TANAKA Tomoyuki) wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> MYTH: Japan sweeps history under the carpet.
You are wrong about that. I'm on a mailing list with someone from
Japan who happened to come across your posts, and even he admits they
aren't taught a lot of what happened in WW2 in their schools.
---
+-------------- http://www.netspace.org/users/drgnmstr ----------------+
|Dragon...@brown.edu|"Searching for a distant star, heading off to |
|"Dragonmaster Lou" |Iscandar, leaving all we love behind, who knows|
|Technology House |what dangers we'll find..." |
+-------------------ftp://yamato.techhouse.brown.edu-------------------+
Support Our Sailors: Please help keep "Sailor Moon" on the air in the US
by signing the SOS petition @ http://looney.physics.sunysb.edu/~daffy/sos/
Seiya Otaku
I'm TAKEUCHI Shouichi, Japanese.
In article <4mqs9g$1...@mesa5.mesa.colorado.edu>,
cle...@mesa5.Mesa.Colorado.EDU says...
>
>TANAKA Tomoyuki (tan...@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu) wrote:
>: >>
[...]
>: [4] some people seem to believe that the Pearl Harbor attack
>: was unusually savage or cruel. that is completely false.
>: the attack was a precise maneuver targeting only military
>: installations. of the approximately 2400 Americans killed
>: in the attack, 68 were civilians, almost all of whom were
>: employees of the military. later US bombings of Japanese
>: cities resulted in about 1 million deaths of Japanese
>: civilians.
>
>True; I do not consider the Pearl Harbor attack to be unusually savage or
>cruel. It was an act of war. But I must ask: was the Rape of Nanking a
>"precise military maneuver targeting only military installations"?
Because Japanese government doesn't want to teach it children.
Actually, most of us Japanese DO NOT know much about the Rape of Nanking.
Because the government doesn't wanted to teach about Japan's cruelty
in the WW2 and most of veterans have wanted to forget it, few of teachers/
storytellers have got opportunity of teach it to children.
[...]
>
>How many Japanese schoolchildren are taught about the Japanese atomic
>bomb program? I'm not saying you're wrong, but inquiring minds want to
>know...
>
As far as I'm concerned, teacher taught us junior-high (or primary-shool)
students that Japan had tried to build the a-bomb.
No explanation/interpretation/discussion was done.
--
Regards,
Takeuchi Shouichi(Seiya Otaku)
Editor of Neon Genesis Evangelion FAQ
Translator of Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers FAQ (E -> J)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
|See You Later,Alligator.| "Burn,my Cosmo,Explode!and Do Miracle!!" |
| | |
|In a While ,Crocodile...| E-mail:take...@mbox.kyoto-inet.or.jp |
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Per Andersson
Adam Marshall <Kul...@citynet.net> wrote:
>Chris C. Lesley wrote:
>>alot.<
>I disagree. The attack was cruel and sneaky. Most any attack made in the
>mind to conquer is. It was NOT RIGHT. I also think that the atomic bomb
>should have never been used. Not only for the benefit of the Japanese,
>but the whole world. We are all going to die earlier than we should
>because of poisons that were virtually nonexistent before 1944. Atomic
>weapons are EVIL and WRONG. Period.
Excuse me, but no, Nuclear weapons are not inherently evil. It's just
the effects of using, or not using them that can be evil.
Concider this:
The US do not use nuclear weapons on Japan. As a result the Japanese
_do not_ surrender until their isles have been completely conquered by
ground forces. This conventional campain against the Japanes would
demand much more casualities, both Japanes and Allied, and possibly
require a Soviet participation. If the Soviets participate, Japan
becomes divided (like Korea). Then the US has no secure base if a war
in Korea starts, possibly leading to a Communist victory in Korea.
Even if the SOviet didn't have to participate in the conquest of the
Japanese main isles leading to the division of Japan etc, a lot more
people would die in a conventional war, when compared to the effects
of the Hiroshima/Nagasaki bombings. Are nuclear weapons still evil?
If the US had not used nuclear arms to end the Pacific War, then
Stalin would have little knowlege of the effects of nuclear weapons,
and also would not believe that the US would concider useing such
weapons. Would he then have been content with keeping eastern Europe,
given the weakness of the western powers in the immideate post-war
years. It isquite plausible that the US nuclear supremacy was what
stopped Stalin from overrunning western Europe as well, thereby saving
millions of people from tyranny. Are the existence of nuclear arms
still evil?
>This goes for everyone who has ever
>even considered them. Even Japan (despite the fact they had no atomic
>program worth mentioning, do you think they would have not developed it
>if they had as many scientist as the US had? Don't kid yourself. And if
>Germany had discovered it in time, they would have rallied round, hoping
>to fufil the agreement of being a part of the ruling empire the NAzi's
>were to establish. Japan would have got burned there, too. Oops,
>rambling.). War is evil, and should not be called upon to pass judgement
>on people who had little or no part in it.
War is evil, but in the long run, tyranny is worse (and if you doubt
that, ask the balts)
Per Andersson
5k51...@vms.csd.mu.edu
In article <4mshad$n...@hpg30a.csc.cuhk.edu.hk>, chung...@mailserv.cuhk.hk
(Nausicaa) writes:
>>>: MYTH: Japan sweeps history under the carpet.
>
>>TRUTH: -Every- country sweeps history under the carpet, and
>Japan is no
>>exception.
>
>
> China lost at least 15 million human life.
> Russia lost 20+ million
>
> How many japs died?
>
Chiness myself and I would have said the same thing when I was still a
teenager, when I kind of hated the Janpaness. But I have since grown up and
realized that the Japaness in general should not be blamed. It is their
government in power at the time of the war that should be blamed.
Jay Pennington
"David Yoon (GD 1995)" <dhy...@minerva.cis.yale.edu> wrote:
>On 8 May 1996, Matsuura-kun wrote:
>> No morals are applicable during times of war.
>Excuse me? As long as a government is in a state of war, it can do
>whatever it pleases, free of recrimination? When did this become a norm or
>convention? Whatever happened to jus in bello? Proportionality and
>discrimination in the use of force?
>Should we forgive the Nazi's for the killings of civilians during
>WWII? The Khmer Rouge for their auto-genocide after their civil war?
>Give me a break. The killing of civilians in Nanking, the wanton savagery
>of the killings should be comdemned along with those in charge of the
>political machinery that perpetuated the acts.
War itself is immoral. (Killing people to get your way.) The rest is
simply a matter of degrees.
"I'm up to my knees in copyright infringments as it is."
--Idaho Joe, in _Raiders of the Lost Tortilla_
-Jay Pennington
data...@jax-inter.net
***************************************************************************
*************
fan & collector of many things animated or related to Star Wars or Star Trek
Less boring sig in development. ;)
Seth Friedman
On 8 May 1996 13:22:24 -0600, cle...@mesa5.Mesa.Colorado.EDU (Chris
C. Lesley) wrote:
[snip]
>True; I do not consider the Pearl Harbor attack to be unusually savage or
>cruel. It was an act of war.
The point being that it *was* an act of war *IN A TIME OF PEACE.*
Seth Friedman
frie...@gol.com
Joe Adamski
Matsuura-kun wrote:
> It's OK about being Chinese, we are probably different types of
> Chinese... I'm originally Shanghainess moved to Hong Kong and now to
> US...
>
> About the morals... what I meant was that it is so easy to sit here
> on our ass on cushioned seats in an AC room with a luxurious computer and
> criticize past actions with hindsight. War creates complex situations.
> People, probably even you, would behave differently. True, the rape of
> Nanking was terrible, but the attrocities of war are consequences in and
> of itself. Killing civilians is not normal, but it is during war because
> that sort of shit does happen.
>
> That's why I feel sorry for war criminals as well... kill to
> survive, but when society restores law and order, humanity jumps up a
> notch in being civil again. You do what you can (and I'm not talking
> about the rape of Nanking) to survive, and even take advantage of what
> you can since you don't know if you'll live another day (the also
> traumatizing psychology during war). Suddenly, thrown back into society
> where everyone is moral, everyone condemns vicious acts of survival or
> vicious instinctive acts during complicated times, it's a bit unnerving.
> Again, it is easy for us to sit here and judge with hindsight. We
> weren't there, we just judge...
Whoa, hold on a second. You're completely ignoring international law and
something called the Law of Armed Conflict. Its a body of law that has
developed over the centuries that details the treatment of POWs, civilians,
sick and wounded, conduct, weaponry, etc. You're trying to apoligize for the
war criminals; well, they knew full well what they were doing was immoral,
illegal, and inhumane. There are 3 fundamental principles in the concept of
war, the first two opposing and the third bringing them together. These are:
1. The Principle of Humanity. This recognizes the inherent dignity of all
human beings, and seeks to lessen the suffering of all.
2. The Principle of Military Necessity. This is fairly self-explanatory,
and tends to escalate the violence that the first principle tries to
mitigate.
3. The Rule of Proportionality. This is the first two principles weighed
together. It is because of this rule that we did not destroy the Temple of
Ur in Desert Storm; Iraq had parked several MiG-21s next to it, so that to
destroy them we would have to destroy part of the temple, as well. These are
the governing moral principles in war; criminals ignore them at their own
peril.
>
> No... less Japanese would've died, especially civilians. More US
> people would've died... that's the usual justification for dropping the
> bomb... to save US lives, not Japanese lives.
>
> Anyway, what's done is done so speculation is really quite
> pointless. What did happen is what counts.
>
You make a point somewhere about hindsight. Well, after the casualities
taken at Okinawa, the brass were convinced that there would be 200,000 US
casualites in an assault on the main Japanese islands, and more than likely
this would require most of the Japanese to be killed as well. The US's
impression of the Japanese was summed up most by Japan's own actions: they
were thought to be sneaky, untrustworthy, and suicidal. Basically, they
expected little children to run around with dynamite strapped to themselves,
and such. They thought that every Japanese citizen would pick up a weapon
and fight to their last breath. So, by dropping the bombs, and killing
100,000 (?) Japanese, they sought to save at least a half a million lives, US
and Japanese. In hindsight, we may not think it was right. Hell, I don't
like having the distinction of belonging to the only military organization
ever to use a nuclear weapon in war. But at the time it was thought to be
the right decision, and the only viable course of action.
C/SSgt Joe Adamski
CS-12
USAF Academy
--
"This content in no way reflects the opinions, standards, or policy of
the United States Air Force Academy or the United States government."
Chris C. Lesley
TANAKA Tomoyuki (tan...@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu) wrote:
: >
: > It would've been interesting to see what would've happened if the
: >Pearl Harbor forces had been prepared for the Japanese attack. It's
: >true that many Americans perceive Asians as sneaky in general, but
: >most probably the Japanese forces would've gotten smeared if Pearl
: >Harbor were awake.
: >
: MYTH: the attack was successful only because it was a surprise.
: (many Americans believe that Japanese can outperform
: Americans only by cheating.)
: from Tom Burnam, "Dictionary of Misinformation" (Crowell, 1975):
: Pearl Harbor and the sitting-duck theory.
: Firmly fixed in the popular consciousness is a belief
: that had the Japanese not caught the Americans
: flat-footed at Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941, the
: loss of ships and men would have been much less. But as
: Leo Rosten said in "World" magazine (Aug. 1, 1972),
: after Fleet Admiral Chester Nimitz, the exact reverse is
: the case. Bad as Pearl Harbor was, had the Pacific
: Fleet been at sea it would have faced a Japanese Carrier
: Task Force the speed of whose ships was at least two
: knots greater than that of the American ships; the
: American would have had little if any air cover (one
: carrier, which could scarcely have arrived in time,
: against six Japanese carriers); and instead of being
: lost in shallow water from which ships could be --- and
: were --- raised and repaired, all losses would have been
: irrevocable. Further, and most important, far fewer men
: were lost precisely because, in Rosen's words, "they
: *were* in the harbor."
As if anyone was suggesting sending the Pacific Fleet against carriers
without air cover; this paragraph is silly. Land-based bombers (B-25's,
B-17's, etc.) would have done the trick very nicely. If the ships had
not been there AT ALL, they would not have been attacked in the first
place (duh), making the strike on Pearl Harbor pointless. That the
strike failed to catch the US carriers in port was bad enough...
Chris C. Lesley
Distribution:
Matsuura-kun (Y...@brown.edu) wrote:
: cle...@mesa5.Mesa.Colorado.EDU (Chris C. Lesley) wrote:
: >
: >
: >gratuitous assumption about beliefs of "many" Americans is worse
: >than false; it is prejudicial.
: Prejudicial assumptions? "many" Americans ARE, in fact, ignorant
: of other cultures and cultural values... hence, a simplified assumption
: of the other kind. In fact, "many" Americans are not as educated in the
: area of appreciation of other cultural values. Likewise for other
: members of other nations... unless you run into a TCK, of course (Third
: Culture Kid, simplified definition = students who moved from one
: international school to another many times)
In fact, "many" Americans are very well educated in the area of
appreciation of other cultural values. "Many" means next to nothing in
this context.
: > It was an act of war. But I must ask: was the Rape of Nanking a
: >"precise military maneuver targeting only military installations"?
: No morals are applicable during times of war.
I never said they were; I just think it's sanctimonious of Tomoyuki to
point fingers.
: >Why don't you talk about the Japanese program to build an atomic bomb?
: >Would the Japanese military have been reluctant to use it? I strongly
: >doubt it...
: Speculation... but FACT: US _did_ use it...
Not speculation at all. I don't have sources available, but they
certainly exist. If Japan had succeeded in developing the bomb (and
there was almost NO chance of that), they would have used it, considering
the country was nearly beaten anyway.
Chris C. Lesley
Heavensrun (heave...@aol.com) wrote:
: But in my opinion, the United States oppression of the Native american
: peoples is the single most disgusting and evil thing in the history of
: this country.
I know this is off-topic, but I don't agree. If the Europeans had never
touched the North American continent, there were plenty of civilizations
in the Americas that would have been more than happy to oppress and
enslave the Indians of North America. If the roles had been reversed, I
doubt the American Indians would have been terribly kind...but I digress...
Jim Gi Tsou
In article <4mtigk$s...@cocoa.brown.edu>, Matsuura-kun <Y...@brown.edu> wrote:
>chung...@mailserv.cuhk.hk (Nausicaa) wrote:
>> And Japan did begin the war!
>>
>> China lost at least 15 million human life.
>> Russia lost 20+ million
>>
>> How many japs died?
>
>Intentional or not, some may get offended... Just because some Japanese
>politicians became ambitious, means it's all their fault?
Well who's fault is it? The US' fault? China's fault? Were the jews at
fault when they were being systematically exterminated by the NAZIs?
>All the lives
>lost... if one country loses more lives than Japan, then there isn't
>tragedy in Japan?
Who brought the tragedies upon the Japanese people, the US? Give me a
break. I find it funny there is still a large portion of the old guard
"samurais" who refuse to admit that Japan was wrong.
>Japan also suffered, regardless of who is to blame.
>The world is to blame. Pride is to blame. Human nature is to blame.
>Then is God to be blamed? Or is he just _testing_ us?
I am sorry, but the world is not to blame, the Japanese government alone
must bare the blame for the suffering it had incurred on its own people
and others it had inflicted.
>Complicated issues go beyond pointing fingers and calculating figures.
Not that complicated. If you are the aggressor and you massacre a ton of
people, throw in some brutal war crimes to boot. When you are finally
defeated you have nothing to whine about. What goes around comes around.
Chris C. Lesley
: >alot.<
: I disagree. The attack was cruel and sneaky. Most any attack made in the
: mind to conquer is. It was NOT RIGHT.
You are correct; wars of aggression are always immoral. I try to avoid
using adjectives like "cruel" and "sneaky" because they can often blind
one to what justifications, however transparent, the Japanese had in
mind. Everyone has 20/20 hindsight.
: I also think that the atomic bomb
: should have never been used. Not only for the benefit of the Japanese,
: but the whole world. We are all going to die earlier than we should
: because of poisons that were virtually nonexistent before 1944. Atomic
: weapons are EVIL and WRONG. Period.
Is a computer evil and wrong? How about a rubber mallet? All tools can
do harm. All tools can do good as well. The physical scientist makes
the bomb, but the political scientist drops it.
: This goes for everyone who has ever
: even considered them. Even Japan (despite the fact they had no atomic
: program worth mentioning, do you think they would have not developed it
: if they had as many scientist as the US had? Don't kid yourself. And if
: Germany had discovered it in time, they would have rallied round, hoping
: to fufil the agreement of being a part of the ruling empire the NAzi's
: were to establish. Japan would have got burned there, too. Oops,
: rambling.). War is evil, and should not be called upon to pass judgement
: on people who had little or no part in it.
War is war, good or evil.
Riiya-Chan
In article <4msgtt$n...@hpg30a.csc.cuhk.edu.hk>
chung...@mailserv.cuhk.hk (Nausicaa) wrote:
> In article <4mr4a2$h...@cocoa.brown.edu>, Y...@brown.edu says...
>
>
> If Japanese did make it, it would have used it first. It
> is not just speculation.
>
> And do you know if US did not use atomic bomb, what would
> happen? A PROLONGED WAR! US would land on the soil of Japan and
> more people would die.
>
>
> Ha ha... Loving watching Anime also means loving all
> aspects of Japan?
Amusing. Fighting over something that was over and done 50 years ago.
1. After America won the war, we were the insturmental part of rebuilding
Japan.
2. I don't know if the war would have been prolonged. The Japanese were losing
miserably even before we dropped the bomb. I can't be the judge on whether
dropping the bomb was right or wrong.
3. And it really pisses me and a lot of people off when new age moralists try to
tell us that what we did was bad back in the war. The Japanese weren't sweet-
hearts in the war and neither were we. War is war. Of course, thier first defense
is proclaiming the atrocities the Americans pulled during the war, which I don't
mind, I can counter with atrocities the Japanese pulled during the war. And of
course there's nothing wrong with letting our vets feel proud that the war was
won by our side. For all of you people who want to argue this point, you go
spend a while marching to a prison camp, fighting for your life, getting shot at.
You be the mother or wife getting the telegram stating that your son or husband
is dead. WWII was hell. WWII is over. We're now at peace. Let it rest.
Riiya-chan | Ethan Forsythe. | "Andromeda has been repaid in full" -Sappho
"Jesus answered and said unto him, verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a
man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3:3
http://www.anime.net/~sapphic
Matsuura-kun
5k51...@vms.csd.mu.edu wrote:
>In article <4mshad$n...@hpg30a.csc.cuhk.edu.hk>,
>> And Japan did begin the war!
>>
>> China lost at least 15 million human life.
>> Russia lost 20+ million
>>
>> How many japs died?
>>
>realized that the Japaness in general should not be blamed. It is their
>government in power at the time of the war that should be blamed.
I agree with you, except for maybe a little amendment... that the
time of war is to be blamed. During those times, globalization was just
beginning... so nationalistic goals were still seen as acceptable.
Furthermore, I have deleted rec.arts.anime from this post, please do
so with other posts... thanks in advance.
--
Matsuura-kun
>Matsuura-kun (Y...@brown.edu) wrote:
>
>In fact, "many" Americans are very well educated in the area of
>appreciation of other cultural values. "Many" means next to nothing in
>this context.
Ha ha ha ha... you mock us international students and minority with
this statement here... not meant to further conflict between anyone...
you see what you've seen and I see what I've seen.
I have also deleted rec.arts.anime from getting this post, please do
so with other such posts... thanks in advance.
Matsuura-kun
Keith Moon
The Japanese have been purchasing huge tracts of land in
Australia. There is more than one way to akin a cat.
Mark Langer
<4msgtt$n...@hpg30a.csc.cuhk.edu.hk> <4mtia4$s...@cocoa.brown.edu> <31936A...@banyan.usafa.af.mil>
Organization: Carleton University
Distribution:
Perhaps the people participating in this thread have cognitive problems.
You have been asked repeatedly to stop posting this on rec.arts.animation
and rec.arts.anime. This debate has nothing to do with those interest
groups. We are entirely capable of following the thread on another, more
appropriate thread if we wish.
Otherwise, you might want to prepare yourselves for a lot of bandwidth
devoted to heated discussion on some aspect of animation entirely remote
from the topics of japan or history.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Langer
Email address: mla...@ccs.carleton.ca
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hillel
>.> : [1] beginning a war with a surprise attack, without (or before)
>.> : a declaration is the way the USA and Japan have usually
>.> : fought wars. all surprise attacks are sneaky. the Pearl
>.>. : Harbor attack was no more sneaky or unfair than the US
>.> : surprise attacks on Native Americans, Cuba (1961), and
>.> : Grenada (1983).
So why Japan complains so much about the USSR doing the same in 8/1945?
>.> : [2] the attack was not a surprise to the US politicians.
When you think about it, it is pretty strange.
in 12/1941 everybody knew that the *strong* German army could not cross
30 miles of sea and land an an island. Napoleon had similar problems.
It was *obvious* that Japan could not land in California, and so it
could start a war against the US but it could not win it. In a long war
natural resource and industrial power are important. If you can build
more ships, and better ships, and you have enough sailors, then sooner
or later you will win the war in the sea.
Japan has almost no natural resources, and the US has many resources.
The US had more population, and 1/4 of the world population (China)
fought against Japan and could be supplied from US factories. In the
height of WWII one city in the US (Pittsburgh, PA.)
produced more iron and steel than Germany and Japan combined.
>.> Not quite true; all the clues were there, but the US officials involved
>.> didn't pick up on it. They refused to believe something like that could
>.> happen; that was their downfall.
How could Japan have any hope of winning such a war?
Why did Japan start a war it could not win?
How could the US politicians guess that Japan would start a war
that it would not be able to win?
>.> False. The Japanese took an ENORMOUS risk; if at ANY point in their
>.> crossing of the Pacific they had been spotted, they would have been blown
>.> out of the water by land-based bombers out of Pearl, or Wake, or Midway,
Land-based bombers from Midway had little influence on the battle of
Midway. The US aircraft carriers were the only effective way to attack
the Japanese aircraft carriers.
>.> : it is completely understandable that such unfair propaganda
>.> : (promoting the idea of "evil, sneaky Japs" using the
>.> : example of the Pearl Harbor attack)
>.> : was used during the war. it is NOT reasonable that this
>.> : propaganda is still going on TODAY, decades after the war.
I don't think that the attack on Pearl Harbor is the main issue.
The treatment of POWs and the treatment of civil population by
the Japanese Empire are much more important.
>.> : MYTH: Japan sweeps history under the carpet.
>.> How many Japanese schoolchildren are taught about the Japanese atomic
>.> bomb program?
More important, how many Japanese school children are taught about the
murder of POWs, the Korean women who were forced into prostitution,
the massacre of civilians in China, etc.?
Hillel ga...@cs.duke.edu
A young boy traveled across Japan to the school of a famous martial
artist. When he arrived at the dojo he was given an audience by the
sensei. "What do you wish from me?" the master asked. "I wish to be your
student and become the finest karateka in the land" the boy replied.
"How long must I study?" "Ten years at least" the master answered. "Ten
years is a long time," said the boy. "What if I studied twice as hard as
all your other students?" "Twenty years" replied the master. "Twenty
years! What if I practice day and night with all my effort?" "Thirty
years" was the master's reply. "How is it that each time I say I will
work harder, you tell me it will take longer?" the boy asked. "The
answer is clear. When one eye is fixed upon your destination, there is
only one eye left with which to find the way."
Peter Gruhn
> The attack was cruel and sneaky. Most any attack made in the
> mind to conquer is.
Are you saying that the attack on Pearl was an attempt to gain
territory? I have a hard time believing that one.
Matsuura-kun
>
>whatever it pleases, free of recrimination?
First again, let me state how easy it is for all of us to sit here
with our stubbron, simplistic hindsight judgements here.
Obviously, this is a complex issue. Ever heard of "The Just War" by
Michael Waltzer? What is just and what is not? What is moral in war?
What great cause justifies the killing of another human being? What
social values are present at times of war? And those in peaceful times
as now where we all look back with arrogant hindsight judgements?
These are answers i cannot answer.
What of justice for the individual at times of war? What of
individual freedom and goals versus that of warring nations?
If you talk about an objective moral, there is none. Killing is
natural and unnatural. We feel guilt, yet we have an urge to be
destructive. If killing can be justified with morals, then it is only
the mind trying to justify itself and rid itself of guilt.
I don't want to write an essay now, but my point is that everything
is complicated and no one way of thinking can place proper value
judgements on the attrocities that happened, especially us who look at it
with biased hindsight judgements.
I said that no morals are applicable because we look at things (or
perhaps just me if you chose to ignore limitations of your own human
mind) in a much simplistic view. Consider psychological effects as well.
Consider conflict escalation, xenophobia, power struggles, and the whole
lot... it is easy to place simple black or white judgements of right and
wrong, evil and good...
But what is good? What is evil? Ever studied existentialism?
"Nothing is good or bad but thinking makes it so."
>of the killings should be comdemned
I don't pretend to have presented a persuasive argument to convince
anyone of anything. I just ask to consider your position of judgement
and be fair to those who actually _lived_ the war. Victims are not only
those who died or were raped, but also those who were driven to "immoral"
acts justified then by situational factors. Who is right and who is
wrong, who are you to say?
I have deleted this from rec.arts.anime... please do so with other
posts that haven't been... it has nothing to do with us anime fans.
--
Matsuura-kun
ts...@engin.umich.edu (Jim Gi Tsou) wrote:
>In article <4mtigk$s...@cocoa.brown.edu>, Matsuura-kun <Y...@brown.edu> wrote:
>>chung...@mailserv.cuhk.hk (Nausicaa) wrote:
>>>
>>
>>Just because some Japanese
>>politicians became ambitious, means it's all their fault?
>
>Well who's fault is it?
>break. I find it funny there is still a large portion of the old guard
>"samurais" who refuse to admit that Japan was wrong.
>
>
>Not that complicated. If you are the aggressor and you massacre a ton of
>people, throw in some brutal war crimes to boot. When you are finally
>defeated you have nothing to whine about. What goes around comes around.
I am 100% Chinese NOT CHINESE AMERICAN and not a "samurai"...
What arrogance in judgement you have. Such simplistic black and
white thoughts. All you do is point the finger. Did you ever consider
that war goes beyond the aggressor? Through conflict ecalation, the
supposed defender becomes an aggressor as well. Japan was wrong but SO
WAS THE WORLD. I don't deny that I think Japan committed horrendous
attrocities, but I can't believe all you do is point the finger at Japan
and justify everyone's actions based on what the "original aggressor
started".
The fault lies not in actions but the basis for the actions taken.
The world was just beginning globalization, led by early attempt of
colonization. This triggered much mercantilistic and nationalistic
activities. Protectionism and national security was the main concern and
nobody thought much of cross-border interdependence. I am not trying to
justify Japan's actions, but trying to open you up to consider the series
of events in history that led one thing to another.
It is sad that your post had only the purpose of pointing the
finger. This "gimme a break" attitude and "it's obvious Japan's fault"
simply disturbs me. If Japan strikes at US then the US has the right to
bombard all the other civilians? That revenge is justified? ALL BECAUSE
IT WAS THE AGGRESSOR'S FAULT? Why don't you give ME a break.
And so because you STARTED to reply to my statements in an
unfriendly way that I should come and hammer you with a giant mallet and
you should have nothing to whine about. FORTUNATELY, I DO NOT THINK LIKE
YOU.
Matsuura-kun
frie...@gol.com (Seth Friedman) wrote:
>On 8 May 1996 13:22:24 -0600, cle...@mesa5.Mesa.Colorado.EDU (Chris
>C. Lesley) wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>>True; It was an act of war.
>The point being that it *was* an act of war *IN A TIME OF PEACE.*
BUT with strategic advantages at THAT TIME.
Matsuura-kun
bl...@cobra.cs.Virginia.EDU (Brian L. Robinson) wrote:
>
>The only thing sneaky is when they come back 50 years later and tell
>us we were being unfair because we retaliated.
Or people blaming Japan's aggression for all the results of _that_
retaliation.
Again, I have removed this from being posted in rec.arts.anime.
Please do so with other such posts.
Jim Gi Tsou
In article <4mlv22$f...@cocoa.brown.edu>, Matsuura-kun <Y...@brown.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>> In article <4mior3$q...@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>, tan...@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu (TANAKA Tomoyuki) writes:
>>>
>>> >in Crispin's typical post (copy attached below), he notes.
>>> > "The fire-bombing of Tokyo isn't really all that
>>> > significant as an historical or a military event."
> I don't have enough information, but the fire-bombing incident is a
>sensitive topic for a lot of people you know... I know my Japanese
>friends really hate getting into arguments about it because they get
>really personal...
> It's a matter of national pride... it was the event that caused
>Japan to bow its head... and that is an insult...
You mean getting Japan ese folks to admit Japan was wrong would hurt
their feeling? Well I guess we can't have that now can we? Let's just
pretend nothing ever happened, that way no one will have to lose face and
bow his/her head.
-
Christopher Robato
In message <31915...@netural.com> - Peter Evans --V-- <ev...@netural.com>
wr
ites:
:>
:>Heavensrun wrote:
:>>
:>> But in my opinion, the United States oppression of the Native american
:>> peoples is the single most disgusting and evil thing in the history of
:>> knocking on the door by declaring a war when your opponent has nukes
:>> pointed at your capital. The US may not be saints, but you can't use
:>> their own behavior to excuse the Japanese sneak attack on Pearl.
:>>
:>
:>In war, anything goes. If you can attack someone and cause huge losses
:>on their side without nearly as much damage on yours, you'd do it
:>because it'd put you that much closer to victory in the war. And when
:>the losers lose, terrible things happen. But then, thats war.
:>
:>>
:>>
:>>
:>> Also remember that the US had a -large- portion of it's navy in pearl
:>> harbor. If it had not been a sneak attack, and those craft had had prior
:>> warning, the Japanese would have been facing a significant resistance. If
:>> they had not planned a sneak attack, they probably wouldn't have picked
:>> Pearl for a target.
:>
:>War doesnt give a damn if your ready or not. If you live, you win. If
:>you die, you lose. If your not prepared to fight, than too bad.
:>
:>>
:>>
:>> TRUTH: -Every- country sweeps history under the carpet, and Japan is no
:>> exception.
:>
:>Mexico never forgot how we took half their land and gave them 15 mil for
:>it, when now its worth trillions. Japan has never, and will NEVER
:>forget the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. People will always
:>remember.
:>
:>--
:>----------------------------------------------------------
:> o Peter Evans \o/
:>/|\ ev...@NETural.com |
:>/ \ http://home.netural.com/~evans/anime.html / \
:> Shut up! All you care about is being
:> happy with Aya!
:>----------------------------------------------------------
The Chinese never forgotten, and never forgiven the rape of Nanjing, either.
And as a race, they got long long memories, an arms buildup, and an inventory
of nukes as well.
Rgds,
Chris
Famous People on Operating Systems--- (Pls feel free to contribute)
Albert Einstein---"E=OS/2"
Steve McGarret (Hawaii Five-O)---"Boot'em, Dano."
Agent Scully (The X-Files)---"Do you really believe there is a Cairo?"
Patrick Henry---"Give me Open Standards, or give me Death."
Gen. Douglas MacArthur---"Old mainframes don't die, they don't even fade
away."
Edgar Allan Poe---"Microsoft, nevermore, nevermore."
Julius Caesar---"What? You too, Bill Gates?"
Roberto Duran---"No MS, no MS." >>> cro...@kuentos.guam.net <<<
Christopher Robato
In message <31933a7...@news.gol.com> - frie...@gol.com (Seth Friedman)
wr
ites:
:>
:>On 8 May 1996 13:22:24 -0600, cle...@mesa5.Mesa.Colorado.EDU (Chris
:>C. Lesley) wrote:
:>
:>[snip]
:>
:>>True; I do not consider the Pearl Harbor attack to be unusually savage or
:>>cruel. It was an act of war.
:>The point being that it *was* an act of war *IN A TIME OF PEACE.*
:>
:>
:>Seth Friedman
:>frie...@gol.com
Time of Peace? If it was "peace" it was certainly fictitious. The
Sino-Japanese war is in full swing, not to mention the whole Europe is totally
at war with Germany at its height. American volunteers are already fighting
the war in England, in the Atlantic with the convoys, and of course, the famed
"Flying Tiger" wing in China. The US goverment is already supplying arms and
material to the Chinese and the British. In the US itself, there already is a
strong debate already going on about joining the war.
This is a period wherein another phase of war is about to be added. It is
already a period of war.
Kaneyasu
From: Fukuyama Hiroaki
Regarding the rape of the 12-year-old Okinawan child.
I have been called upon to voice my opinion about the 12-year-old girl who
was raped by three Afro-American savages. This was truly a great tragedy
for the poor girl. Now she will never be able to get married and live a
happy life. She is forever tainted in the eyes of Japanese society and no
respectable Japanese man will have anything to do with her. Those three
savages got off easy. They will only have to spend about 8 years in prison
and perhaps get time off for good behavior. They should have been given
the minimum of life in prison without parole, but the death sentence by
hanging would have been preferable. However, I have heard a rumor that
certain gangster elements here in Japan will put out an international
contract on them when they get out of jail and rid the world of them.
From the postings I read on this newsgroup, there seems to be an attitude
that Americans can come to Japan and do what they like to our women. All
our women are supposed to be available for one-night stands and there is
never any mention of developing a meaningful relationship with them.
Roppongi is crawling with the vermin of the US military. It is time that
America pack up and leave our islands. We never needed you here in the
first place. It all started back in 1853 when Admiral Perry and his black
ships landed in Japan. Japan had no choice but to become a colonist power
so that they could compete with the West. If we didn't, Perry and
President Fillmore had agreed that they would annex Okinawa and use it as
a base for an invasion of Japan. Now Japan is unfairly labeled as being a
militaristic nation. But before Perry arrived on our shores we had a
golden age with 250 years of peace during which time Europeans were
slaughtering each other and the Europeans who had invaded America were
slaugthering the Indians and enslaving Africans. The racists of America
would have done the same to us if we hadn't taken measures to defend
ourselves. And the racists Christians of Europe were the vanguard of the
European enslavers, who were kidnapping Japanese at the end of the 16th
century and selling them as slaves. This is when Toyotomi Hideyoshi
lowered the boom on the Christians and banished them from Japan. And to
prove that he was serious, he crucified 26 of them in Nagasaki on February
5, 1597. By this act Hideyoshi became the savior of Japan. How many of you
white Christians know that in 1581, the chief Jesuit missionary to Japan,
Father Organtin, presented an African to the great warlord Oda Nobunaga as
a slave, offering to supply him with many others should it please his
fancy. Nobunaga was repulsed by the offer and refused it. There is no
doubt that the Judeo-Islamic-Christian religion is the scourge of the
earth.
And, yes, it is true that America started the Pacific War with Japan.
Roosevelt had brought the entire US naval fleet to Honolulu. What would
any Japanese general think when he saw that? Clearly, America must be
planning to launch an attack upon Japan. And if that attack could be
pre-empted by wiping out that fleet, it would make good military sense to
do that. Any military man who would not do such a thing would be derelict
in his duties. In its war with America, Japan attacked only military
targets, but it was the allies who thought it might be a good idea to
attack the civilian population of Japan (and in Germany, too), heartlessly
incinerating millions of innocent women and children. (Thank you, General
Curtis LeMay, General MacArthur, and President Truman. May you and your
underlings fry in hell for all eternity.)
It is time that America and Americans leave Japan. You are more than a
burden to us. You pollute our culture. You send your GIs and low-class
civilians soil our women, and you have the audacity to brag about it over
the internet and advertise where these women can be found.* You should all
be ashamed of yourselves.
Fukuyama Akihiro
*Note: I investigated the places in Shinjuku and Roppongi where it was
said that you could find Japanese women for sex. Well, as it turns out
these women are not Japanese. By speaking to them I discovered that they
are mostly from Taiwan, the Philippines, Korea, China, and Thailand. Most
of them are here illegally and they work as prostitutes to earn a living
because they are unable to find other work.
**Note 2: I would like to thank Ms. Kaneyasu for giving me the opportunity
to address this newsgroup.
James Marken
Greetings,
If anyone should feel the need to respond to this silly person, please
remove the rec.arts.* groups from the header. Thank you.
--
_____________________________________________________________
James Marken
jma...@indiana.edu
http://ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu/~jmarken/
"The important thing is to ignore data, which complicates life."
-James Watson
_____________________________________________________________
Matthew Alt
In <4n5ess$b...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> kane...@aol.com (Kaneyasu)
writes:
>I have been called upon to voice my opinion about the 12-year-old girl
who
>was raped by three Afro-American savages. This was truly a great
tragedy
>for the poor girl. Now she will never be able to get married and live
a
>happy life. She is forever tainted in the eyes of Japanese society and
no
>respectable Japanese man will have anything to do with her.
What a great society! It's all the VICTIM'S fault!
Assholes like you are what make Japan such an infuritaing culture to
deal with on occasion. I feel very, very sorry for that girl, who's
going to be shunned for the rest of her life because idiots like YOU
see her as tainted.
And by the way, there was a white american involved as well. "Afro
American Savages...." Man, you're out of it.....
-Matt
Christopher Robato
In message <319188...@citynet.net> - Adam Marshall <Kul...@citynet.net>
wr
ites:
:>
:>Chris C. Lesley wrote:
:>
:>>alot.<
:>
:>mind to conquer is. It was NOT RIGHT. I also think that the atomic bomb
"Cruel", "Sneaky", "NOT RIGHT"?
Isoroku Yamamoto and the Imperial Japanese Fleet are not aspiring for Boy
Scout grades, you know.
There is no such thing as cruel, sneaky and not right in war. You are there
to win it using any means possible, win the war in as short as time as
possible to minimize your own casualties as much as possible. Do you expect
Yamamoto to politely hand Roosevelt a greeting card, saying, "Dear President
Roosevelt, I'm going to bomb Pearl Harbor on the 7th of December, and I
suggest that you take tne necessary preparations at hand. Merry X'mas."
Yamamoto's mistake was that he didn't INVADE Hawaii that first day, and threw
troops instead invading the Philippines and Guam. If he did, the Japanese
empire would have a strong positional advantage that the war would either have
stalemated, or lasted longer than it should. As for the American politicians,
they saw it coming (even a moron could see it coming), and an even bigger
responsibility should fall on them for *not being prepared* in the first
place. (The lack of preparation was so bad that Japanese war planes arriving
at the Clark Air Base in the Philippines found all the US planes so neatly
lined up in the open, despite radio and the Pearl Harbor attack having occured
more than a day before.) A big blame should be laid on the American
politicians and military planners---for ineptitude.
For that reason, I don't consider Reagan's F111s bombing Libya to be sneaky at
all. Or the Israelis doing likewise with surgical air strikes against a
Libyan or Iraqi nuclear plant. Or Bush sending Stealth jets into Baghdad (but
he gave Saddam plenty of warning though). Certainly his invasion of Panama
seemed "sneaky". And so on and on.
A surprise attack is as universal and as old as warfare itself. It's not
"sneaky"---it's a tactical necessity.
:>should have never been used. Not only for the benefit of the Japanese,
:>but the whole world. We are all going to die earlier than we should
:>because of poisons that were virtually nonexistent before 1944. Atomic
:>weapons are EVIL and WRONG. Period. This goes for everyone who has ever
:>even considered them. Even Japan (despite the fact they had no atomic
:>program worth mentioning, do you think they would have not developed it
:>if they had as many scientist as the US had? Don't kid yourself. And if
:>Germany had discovered it in time, they would have rallied round, hoping
:>to fufil the agreement of being a part of the ruling empire the NAzi's
The Japanese were trying to have their own nuclear program, thanks to German
help, who were developing a nuke of their own (the nuclear pioneer Otto Hahn
was a member). Remember, the US A-bomb project had a good number of German
expatriates, including Oppenheimer and Einstein. The Soviet A-bomb project
got a big boost from captured German scientists (not to mention from some US
traitors).
Imagine if the Germans developed the Bomb and placed it on a V2 rocket, aimed
it at London and Moscow. Imagine if they shared that technology with the
Japanese. Would the Nazis and the Tojo Cabinet have any moral qualms not to
use such a weapon? The German A-bomb project was as real as the successful V2
project. The US was every bit right in developing their own A-bomb project.
:>were to establish. Japan would have got burned there, too. Oops,
:>rambling.). War is evil, and should not be called upon to pass judgement
:>on people who had little or no part in it.
"Little or no part in it?" Are you talking about neutral countries here?
There is nothing little about the contributions of civilians in the last world
war. In fact the civilians are the basis of the economies that propelled the
war machine. They believed in, sung the songs, march the march of their
propangandists, including propaganda of racist and ideological undertones.
That included the civilians of both Allied and Axis nations. Civilians played
a big part of the war, and American civilians played a big, very big, part in
winning it.
Locke
In article <4n5ess$b...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, kane...@aol.com (Kaneyasu)
wrote:
> From: Fukuyama Hiroaki
>
> Regarding the rape of the 12-year-old Okinawan child.
>
> I have been called upon to voice my opinion about the 12-year-old girl who
> was raped by three Afro-American savages. This was truly a great tragedy
I trust that by referring to them as savages applies to them as individuals, and
not to their race. In that I think the term savage is too kind.
> for the poor girl. Now she will never be able to get married and live a
My heart goes out to her and all other victims of such heinous acts.
> happy life. She is forever tainted in the eyes of Japanese society and no
> respectable Japanese man will have anything to do with her. Those three
Why? What did she do to derserve such scorn from her society? How respectable
could any man think himself to be to levy dishonor on a victim like that? I
know of no true gentleman who could do such a thing. So why do you? Why does
your culture?
> savages got off easy. They will only have to spend about 8 years in prison
> and perhaps get time off for good behavior. They should have been given
> the minimum of life in prison without parole, but the death sentence by
> hanging would have been preferable. However, I have heard a rumor that
No, life without parole is too kind. They gave up their right to life the
moment they touched her.
> certain gangster elements here in Japan will put out an international
> contract on them when they get out of jail and rid the world of them.
Then Justice shall be served. The law fails to uphold the virtue of Justice
quite of often. This is one of those times.
> From the postings I read on this newsgroup, there seems to be an attitude
> that Americans can come to Japan and do what they like to our women. All
> our women are supposed to be available for one-night stands and there is
> never any mention of developing a meaningful relationship with them.
Really? I admit, there are many such posts here, but their are just as many
against them. For every assertion, I have seen multiple attacks upon the
poster. Thus the attitude you speak of is one of a minority, and not the group.
> Roppongi is crawling with the vermin of the US military. It is time that
> America pack up and leave our islands. We never needed you here in the
> first place. It all started back in 1853 when Admiral Perry and his black
> ships landed in Japan. Japan had no choice but to become a colonist power
> so that they could compete with the West. If we didn't, Perry and
> President Fillmore had agreed that they would annex Okinawa and use it as
> a base for an invasion of Japan. Now Japan is unfairly labeled as being a
> militaristic nation. But before Perry arrived on our shores we had a
> golden age with 250 years of peace during which time Europeans were
> slaughtering each other and the Europeans who had invaded America were
> slaugthering the Indians and enslaving Africans. The racists of America
> would have done the same to us if we hadn't taken measures to defend
> ourselves. And the racists Christians of Europe were the vanguard of the
> European enslavers, who were kidnapping Japanese at the end of the 16th
> century and selling them as slaves. This is when Toyotomi Hideyoshi
> lowered the boom on the Christians and banished them from Japan. And to
> prove that he was serious, he crucified 26 of them in Nagasaki on February
> 5, 1597. By this act Hideyoshi became the savior of Japan. How many of you
> white Christians know that in 1581, the chief Jesuit missionary to Japan,
> Father Organtin, presented an African to the great warlord Oda Nobunaga as
> a slave, offering to supply him with many others should it please his
> fancy. Nobunaga was repulsed by the offer and refused it. There is no
> doubt that the Judeo-Islamic-Christian religion is the scourge of the
> earth.
A belief cannot be blamed for the actions of its followers. I am Christian, as
such I generally don't mention that because it is my personal belief. Therefore
I try to avoid situations in which arguements needlessly arise about it. Ones
that can neither be won, nor enlightenment shown. The fact that throughout
history those of Organized versions of Christianity not only tried to forceably
convert many, slaughtered others, and caused atrocious acts in general does
distress me. I feel that branching out into different groups like Methodist,
Baptist, Catholic, is nothing more than politics. Politics and faith were never
meant to mix. Something the U.S. Government will never understand. I condemn
those who committed acts of brutality and murder in the name of Christianity. I
am in no way such as they, nor is the Faith itself. Only those who would use it
for a political tool are. So I do not beg to differ with the reference of
"Christianity being the scourge of the earth", I demand to differ!
> And, yes, it is true that America started the Pacific War with Japan.
> Roosevelt had brought the entire US naval fleet to Honolulu. What would
> any Japanese general think when he saw that? Clearly, America must be
> planning to launch an attack upon Japan. And if that attack could be
What reason would America have had to start a war with Japan? Could it have
something to do with its acts of aggression in China and other parts of Asia?
Did the war start with the bombing of Pearl Harbor, or was it when Japan tried
annexing Asia? A war with Japan would have been far too costly to start for no
reason. The fighting may have started with Pearl Harbor, but the war started
earlier when Japan started conquering Asia.
> pre-empted by wiping out that fleet, it would make good military sense to
> do that. Any military man who would not do such a thing would be derelict
> in his duties. In its war with America, Japan attacked only military
With the limited resources Japan had for its war effort it would have been
stupid to attack anything that didn't directly affect its enemies capacity to
wage war.
> targets, but it was the allies who thought it might be a good idea to
> attack the civilian population of Japan (and in Germany, too), heartlessly
> incinerating millions of innocent women and children. (Thank you, General
> Curtis LeMay, General MacArthur, and President Truman. May you and your
> underlings fry in hell for all eternity.)
As tragic as they were, such events of mass destruction were a demonstration of
force. It was the only way to get the arrogant Japanese (and German) government
of the time to realise its defeat. Only by such acts was the war able to end
sooner, and with less bloodshed. Both Allied and Japanese. Just how many women
and children would have had to been killed to get to the governments in power?
As for the German government of the time, we all know about the bombing
of Britain and others. If Japan had a greater capacity to wage war, it is only
foolhardy to say they wouldn't have bombed other targets. Military and
civilian. Especially when you consider Nanjing.
> It is time that America and Americans leave Japan. You are more than a
I am sorry you feel that way, I had often thought of visiting your country.
There are many things that have come from your culture that truly fascinate me.
> burden to us. You pollute our culture. You send your GIs and low-class
The pollution you refer to is called globalization. No country will be able to
it avoid much longer. I think isolationism could help a few nations refocus on
their domestic problems, but the world as a whole wont wait for that. As for
our military bases thoughout the world, I agree with you that they should be
closed. The soldiers return home. The countries they inhabited left alone. I
do not agree with this governments policy of playing "the world police", it is
both arragant, and not our responsibility. Globalization is bringing an end to
any reason we may have had to do that. But my views are often just that, mine.
> civilians soil our women, and you have the audacity to brag about it over
> the internet and advertise where these women can be found.* You should all
> be ashamed of yourselves.
Why should a group be ashamed for the actions of one? If they are able to
prevent, or stop a wrong doing, but don't then they should. Just in case you
have not quite caught what I am saying, the Internet is not owned by anyone. It
has no central authority. It is a free forum, for any and all. If you disagree
with what someone says, tell them! But don't blanket cover a group with the
shame of one. If that was true, then the Japanese people should have felt the
shame of their Emporer.
> Fukuyama Akihiro
>
> *Note: I investigated the places in Shinjuku and Roppongi where it was
> said that you could find Japanese women for sex. Well, as it turns out
> these women are not Japanese. By speaking to them I discovered that they
> are mostly from Taiwan, the Philippines, Korea, China, and Thailand. Most
> of them are here illegally and they work as prostitutes to earn a living
> because they are unable to find other work.
Does that make them less worthy of being defended? Or are you (like I hope)
just clarifing their true identities?
> **Note 2: I would like to thank Ms. Kaneyasu for giving me the opportunity
> to address this newsgroup.
I must thank her as well. Yours has been the only post I have felt compelled to
reply to on this thread.
Locke
--
Look to the past to avoid the same mistakes. Look to the future for hope, and inspiration. Live in the present, before it becomes the past.
cro...@kuentos.guam.net
Take your racist crap off from rec.arts.anime.
In <4n5ess$b...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, kane...@aol.com (Kaneyasu) writes:
>From: Fukuyama Hiroaki
>
>Fukuyama Akihiro
[much of a racist post deleted]
>
>*Note: I investigated the places in Shinjuku and Roppongi where it was
>said that you could find Japanese women for sex. Well, as it turns out
>these women are not Japanese. By speaking to them I discovered that they
>are mostly from Taiwan, the Philippines, Korea, China, and Thailand. Most
>of them are here illegally and they work as prostitutes to earn a living
>because they are unable to find other work.
Brought there illegally and used as sex slaves by your Yakuza, then exploited by
your businessmen and sararimans. They were brought there on the pretense they
can find *decent* work, not ending up as sex slaves in tightly closed brothels
used for quickie sex. Some of those girls come back *DEAD* with all sorts
of physical and sexual abuse in their bodies.
>
>**Note 2: I would like to thank Ms. Kaneyasu for giving me the opportunity
>to address this newsgroup.
Rgds,
Chris
*** Sailor Moon Joins Team OS/2 ***
Danger threatens. Millions are being turned to lemmings by the evil Windowverse
forces. Holding their Warp CDROMs high, Serena and friends shout,
"OS/2 Warp Power, Boot Up!" (With background music) They turn into Sailor Moon
and the Sailor Scouts. Crashing deep inside the Redmoon palace,
moonlight beaming behind their silhouettes, they confront the evil Queen Beryl
Gates and her lemming horde. Fingers pointing, Sailor Moon says,
"In the name of I-B-Moon, I shall right FUD, and that means you!"
>>>cro...@kuentos.guam.net<<<
Bruce Lewis
>I have been called upon to voice my opinion about the 12-year-old girl who
>was raped by three Afro-American savages. This was truly a great tragedy
>for the poor girl.
In this, I agree. Has the USMC forgotten how to hold a
court-martial? Those bastards should be swinging from
a yardarm.
>Now she will never be able to get married and live a
>happy life. She is forever tainted in the eyes of Japanese society and no
>respectable Japanese man will have anything to do with her.
Irrational racism.
>But before Perry arrived on our shores we had a
>golden age with 250 years of peace during which time Europeans were
>slaughtering each otherÅ
Å something the feudal lords of the Tokugawa were
adept at as wellÅ
>And, yes, it is true that America started the Pacific War with Japan.
You, sir, are either a fool or an illiterate. This is the most
baldfaced distortion of history I have ever seen on Usenet.
>Roosevelt had brought the entire US naval fleet to Honolulu. What would
>any Japanese general think when he saw that? Clearly, America must be
>planning to launch an attack upon Japan.
Oh, please. The militarists in Japan had taken over Manchuria and
half of Oceania by December 1941. Japan was under an embargo and
plans for attacks on Guam, the Philippines, and Midway were intercepted
and decoded months earlier. Saying that America intended to attack
Japan with the ancient battleships and unarmed oilers based at Pearl
is preposterous.
>And if that attack could be
>pre-empted by wiping out that fleet, it would make good military sense to
>do that. Any military man who would not do such a thing would be derelict
>in his duties. In its war with America, Japan attacked only military
>targets, but it was the allies who thought it might be a good idea to
>attack the civilian population of Japan (and in Germany, too), heartlessly
>incinerating millions of innocent women and children.
Babies in Nanking. Civilians in Manila. Defenseless prisoners
in Bataan. Helpless soldiers in Corregidor. I could go on. The
bloody hands of the Japanese Empire were all over the Pacific
and Asia fifty years ago. Heartlessness indeed!
(Thank you, General
>Curtis LeMay, General MacArthur, and President Truman. May you and your
>underlings fry in hell for all eternity.)
Right next to Hideki Tojo, Adm. Yamamoto, and your beloved Showa
himself, hopefully.
>It is time that America and Americans leave Japan. You are more than a
>burden to us. You pollute our culture. You send your GIs and low-class
>civilians soil our women, and you have the audacity to brag about it over
>the internet and advertise where these women can be found.* You should all
>be ashamed of yourselves.
Well, at least we don't slaughter our vanquished
enemies wholesale, like SOME countries used to do.
And I have a feeling low-class American GIs will become
more popular the next time the People's Republic of
China casts its eyes eastward.
In closing, I'd like to say that I am glad that my Japanese
friends and business associates are not nationalistic
racists like you obviously are. I know that most
Japanese today are nothing like you, sir, just as most
Americans are not subhuman rapists. Nothing would
please me more than to see the Okinawa rapists (and
rapists in general) lined up and shot and their carcasses
kicked off the fantail as food for fish. You belong to the
same class of people as Mishima Yukio, the laughable
nationalist who tried to rally the JSDF into a military
coup in the name of yamatodamashii. They laughed at
him, just as I am laughing at you, and he ended up
trying to commit seppuku in his clumsy homemade
fascist uniform--but in the end he botched that, too.
I do not hold any of the Japanese of today in any way
responsibile for Japan's fascist aggression of fifty years
ago. Kindly accord us Americans the selfsame
consideration.
*******************************************
Bruce Lewis‹American Without Tears
Studio Go! Multimedia
Manhattan Projects Multimedia
*******************************************
My opinion‹it ain't necessarily Go!'s
*******************************************
Producers of STAR BLAZERS MAGAZINE
and other quality publications.
*******************************************
Celebrate Insectoid-American Heritage Day!
"It's Great to be a Gray!" 7 July 1996
*******************************************
Jim Gi Tsou
In article <4n5ess$b...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
Kaneyasu <kane...@aol.com> wrote:
>From: Fukuyama Hiroaki
>
>Now Japan is unfairly labeled as being a
>militaristic nation.
Oh yeah, just like they said in Patlabor2, Japan is a nation of peace lovers.
How dare anyone claim Japan for being militaristic?
>But before Perry arrived on our shores we had a
>golden age with 250 years of peace
Right, we all know samurais would never use their sword to cut down other
people, after all they are meant for cutting trees for fire wood.
>during which time Europeans were
>slaughtering each other and the Europeans who had invaded America were
>slaugthering the Indians and enslaving Africans.
What's your point? Because the Euopeans have done wrong means Japan hasn't?
Didn't the Japanese warlords err, peacelords buy the best weapons from
the west so they could fight each other for power?
>The racists of America
No one denies there's racism in America, but would you admit Japan is
also very much racist?
>And, yes, it is true that America started the Pacific War with Japan.
Of course, and the rest of Asia start the war with Japan too right?
>Roosevelt had brought the entire US naval fleet to Honolulu. What would
>any Japanese general think when he saw that? Clearly, America must be
>planning to launch an attack upon Japan. And if that attack could be
>pre-empted by wiping out that fleet, it would make good military sense to
>do that. Any military man who would not do such a thing would be derelict
>in his duties.
Would his military duties also include rape, wanton killing of civilians
and POWS in the cruelest manners?
>In its war with America, Japan attacked only military
>targets,
Japan couldn't hope to win a war against the US. They only wanted to
cripple the US for a while so they could secure themselves in Asia, so
when the rest of the US fleet arrives, it would be too tough and costly
for the US to have the will to fight to the end. Eventually a truce will
be signed with Japan paying for the damages at Pearl Harbor and Japan
would be left to plundering and raping the rest of Asia at their
discretion. Too bad, it didn't work out as well as it was planned.
>but it was the allies who thought it might be a good idea to
>attack the civilian population of Japan (and in Germany, too), heartlessly
>incinerating millions of innocent women and children.
What goes around comes around eh? Japan had many chances to surrender
when it was clear there was no hope, but the government chose to save
face rather than its own people.
>(Thank you, General
>Curtis LeMay, General MacArthur, and President Truman. May you and your
>underlings fry in hell for all eternity.)
Are we forgeting Tojo and his cohorts?
Dwayne Gregory
Per Andersson wrote:
>
> Adam Marshall <Kul...@citynet.net> wrote:
>
> >Chris C. Lesley wrote:
>
> >>alot.<
>
> >I disagree. The attack was cruel and sneaky. Most any attack made in the
> >mind to conquer is. It was NOT RIGHT. I also think that the atomic bomb
> >but the whole world. We are all going to die earlier than we should
> >because of poisons that were virtually nonexistent before 1944. Atomic
> >weapons are EVIL and WRONG. Period.
>
> the effects of using, or not using them that can be evil.
>
> Concider this:
>
> The US do not use nuclear weapons on Japan. As a result the Japanese
> _do not_ surrender until their isles have been completely conquered by
> ground forces. This conventional campain against the Japanes would
> demand much more casualities, both Japanes and Allied, and possibly
> require a Soviet participation. If the Soviets participate, Japan
> becomes divided (like Korea). Then the US has no secure base if a war
> in Korea starts, possibly leading to a Communist victory in Korea.
> Even if the SOviet didn't have to participate in the conquest of the
> Japanese main isles leading to the division of Japan etc, a lot more
> people would die in a conventional war, when compared to the effects
> of the Hiroshima/Nagasaki bombings. Are nuclear weapons still evil?
>
> If the US had not used nuclear arms to end the Pacific War, then
> Stalin would have little knowlege of the effects of nuclear weapons,
> and also would not believe that the US would concider useing such
> weapons. Would he then have been content with keeping eastern Europe,
> given the weakness of the western powers in the immideate post-war
> years. It isquite plausible that the US nuclear supremacy was what
> stopped Stalin from overrunning western Europe as well, thereby saving
> millions of people from tyranny. Are the existence of nuclear arms
> still evil?
>
> >This goes for everyone who has ever
> >even considered them. Even Japan (despite the fact they had no atomic
> >program worth mentioning, do you think they would have not developed it
> >if they had as many scientist as the US had? Don't kid yourself. And if
> >Germany had discovered it in time, they would have rallied round, hoping
> >to fufil the agreement of being a part of the ruling empire the NAzi's
> >rambling.). War is evil, and should not be called upon to pass judgement
> >on people who had little or no part in it.
> that, ask the balts)
>
> Per Andersson
Right on target. People should never forget the afteraffects of an act or
what would logically have occurred had those events not taken place.
Dwayne Gregory
Matsuura-kun wrote:
> It is sad that your post had only the purpose of pointing the
> finger. This "gimme a break" attitude and "it's obvious Japan's fault"
> simply disturbs me. If Japan strikes at US then the US has the right to
> bombard all the other civilians? That revenge is justified? ALL BECAUSE
> IT WAS THE AGGRESSOR'S FAULT? Why don't you give ME a break.
>
Japan was a criminal nation. It got punished. That's all. They should
accept their punishment and admit their crimes. Japan rarely has admitted
ANY wrongdoing in WWII.
Consider this; 3 marines rape a child on Japanese soil and less than a year
later our president apologizes to Japan. How long did it take for Japan
to formally apologize for the rape of thousands of Asian children in WWII?
To apologize for ANY crimes committed during the war?
Paul D. Gerdes
I am new to this newsgroup. I grew up in Japan the son of a U.S. Air
Force officer after the war. I am very fond of the Japanese people. I
have returned on martial arts tours of the major martial arts centers in
Japan since then. A quick decisive attack against your enemy is in
agreement with Japanese military thinking. Every effort was made in the
planning so that a state of war would exist with the U.S. BEFORE the
first shot was fired (due to mistakes this did not happen). Was it
sneaky? I would say yes, but the japanese felt the U.S. embargo of oil was
an act of war by itself. As far as dropping the bomb I have no doubt it
was needed. The world had not seen such an all out race war as was going
on between the U.S. Japan. The acts of desperate heroism from Kamikasies
and other suicide weapons has not been seen before or after. Older
Japanese I have spoken to almost to a person understand why it happened
and that if the roles were reversed the Japanese would have done the
same. Many, many more lives were lost in the fire bombing of Toyko and
Dresden than were lost to the bomb. I must wonder however if dropping a
second bomb so soon after the first was a good idea. And yes the japanese
are only hurting themselves by not teaching the entire truth about world
war two. They are playing right into the hands of the ultra-right wing
the very mind set of the people that brought the world Nanking and Manila.
Thank you.
Dragonmaster Lou
cro...@kuentos.guam.net (Christopher Robato) wrote:
>A surprise attack is as universal and as old as warfare itself. It's not
>"sneaky"---it's a tactical necessity.
It is sneaky when you haven't formally declared war on the country
you're attacking.
---
+-------------- http://www.netspace.org/users/drgnmstr ----------------+
|Dragon...@brown.edu|"Searching for a distant star, heading off to |
|"Dragonmaster Lou" |Iscandar, leaving all we love behind, who knows|
|Technology House |what dangers we'll find..." |
+------------------ ftp://yamato.techhouse.brown.edu ------------------+
Support Our Sailors: Please help keep "Sailor Moon" on the air in the US
by signing the SOS petition @ http://looney.physics.sunysb.edu/~daffy/sos/
Chris C. Lesley
Jim Gi Tsou (ts...@engin.umich.edu) wrote:
: In article <4n5ess$b...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
[Excellent dissection of Hiroaki by Jim Gi Tsou snipped]
: What goes around comes around eh? Japan had many chances to surrender
: when it was clear there was no hope, but the government chose to save
: face rather than its own people.
BEAUTIFUL! Well said, Jim.
C.
--
Chris Lesley
"Heaven wheels above you, displaying to you her eternal glories,
and still your eyes are on the ground." --- Dante Alighieri
Colin Campbell
Bruce Lewis <bc...@deltanet.com> wrote:
>kane...@aol.com (Kaneyasu) wrote:
>>From: Fukuyama Hiroaki
>>I have been called upon to voice my opinion about the 12-year-old girl who
>>was raped by three Afro-American savages. This was truly a great tragedy
>>for the poor girl.
>In this, I agree. Has the USMC forgotten how to hold a
>court-martial? Those bastards should be swinging from
>a yardarm.
Under the UCMJ a rapist can be setenced to death. Unfortunately,
under the treaty we had with Japan we were required to turn the
rapists over to the Japanese govrenment. If they had been tried in a
US military court the penalties would have been much harsher.
Also, remember that these guys embarrased just about everybody in the
US military. Worse for the guys in the Marines though, they are
really touchy about the subject.
What strikes me is the Japanese assumption about how we feel on the
subject. They demand that we understand and apprecieate thier culture
and are completely blind to any but thier own.
>>And, yes, it is true that America started the Pacific War with Japan.
>You, sir, are either a fool or an illiterate. This is the most
>baldfaced distortion of history I have ever seen on Usenet.
One thing that strikes me is that the Japanese do not teach the
history of thier own nation for the period of just prior to WWII.
Most Japanese tourists who visit the USS Arizona memorial are suprised
at the fact that the Pearl Harbor raid occured at all.
>>And if that attack could be
>>pre-empted by wiping out that fleet, it would make good military sense to
>>do that. Any military man who would not do such a thing would be derelict
>>in his duties. In its war with America, Japan attacked only military
Actually, the attack was necessary beceause the US fleet was poised to
counter a Japanese attack on the Philipines.
Christopher Robato
In message <3198c177...@news.brown.edu> - Dragon...@brown.edu
(Dragonmaster Lou) writes:
:>
:>cro...@kuentos.guam.net (Christopher Robato) wrote:
:>
:>>A surprise attack is as universal and as old as warfare itself. It's not
:>>"sneaky"---it's a tactical necessity.
:>
:>you're attacking.
:>
In the US military terminology, it's called a Preemptive Strike.
They didn't officially declared war on Granada and Panama when it was invaded.
Or announce to Khaddafy we're going to bomb his nuclear plants.
"Sneaky" is a cheap and childish word. Fortunately, it's hell of a lot
cheaper than your soldiers's lives, and very very cheap to pay for the cost of
victory. Besides the tensions in the Pacific are already so high, it's coming
to this one way or another. (In the "undeclared war" before Pearl Harbor, the
US is already supplying arms and material, even personnel in the form of
"volunteers"---such as the famous Flying Tigers---to the Chinese to fight the
war there.) An embargo is already at that point, is already like declaring an
economic war.
Admiral Yamamoto did no wrong, tactically and strategically, making his sneak
attack. If I were him I would have followed it up by invading Hawaii.
But of course, if you are the US propaganda and the press at that time, you're
not going to congratulate the attack as a "brilliant tactical maneuver".
You're going to condemn it as sneaky, and rouse emotions and morale against
the enemy. That's their part, and the US propagandists did no wrong either.
Like Yamamoto, it's only part of their job.
But that was then and this is now. Historically, the Pearl Harbor attack
should be considered for what it is---a calculated preemptive attack.
Rgds,
Chris
>>>>** Sailor Moon Joins Team OS/2 **<<<<
FUD covers the city, turning millions into lemmings. Serena and
friends raise their shiny Warp CD ROMs. "OS/2 Warp Power, Make Up!"
Serena turns into Sailor Moon, and they into Sailor Mars, Sailor Mercury,
Sailor Jupiter and Sailor Venus. The Sailor Team OS/2 girls
crash into the Red Moon palace. Hordes of lemmings rose to fight them.
With moonlight beaming behind their silhouettes, Sailor Moon threatens
the evil Queen Beryl Gates and the diabolical Windowsverse forces,
"In the name of I-B-Moon, I shall right FUD and that means you!"
[[[ cro...@kuentos.guam.net ]]]
Colin Campbell
cro...@kuentos.guam.net (Christopher Robato) wrote:
>For that reason, I don't consider Reagan's F111s bombing Libya to be sneaky at
>all. Or the Israelis doing likewise with surgical air strikes against a
>Libyan or Iraqi nuclear plant. Or Bush sending Stealth jets into Baghdad (but
>he gave Saddam plenty of warning though). Certainly his invasion of Panama
>seemed "sneaky". And so on and on.
Actually, the suprise raid on Lybia can be justified under the Geneva
Conventions as allowable under the right of reprisal. The Lybians did
bomb a German nightclub with the intention of targeting US troops.
This could be construed as a "sneak attack."
Christopher Robato
In message <4mr4ko$h...@cocoa.brown.edu> - Matsuura-kun <Y...@brown.edu>8 May
1996 21:44:56 GMT writes:
:>
:>pdch...@unix.amherst.edu (PAUL D. CHAPIN) wrote:
:>>TANAKA Tomoyuki (tan...@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu) wrote:
:>>
:>>: MYTH: Japan sweeps history under the carpet.
:>>
:>>I'll let the Koreans and Chinese deal with this. They're more upset
:>>about it than the US is.
:>
:> This is a chinese speaking (does that make me more justified to
:>deal with the issue?[rhetorical question]): How many times have Chinese
:>swept history under their carpet? Every seen "Iron and Silk"?
:>
:> If the Chinese or Koreans were in place of the Japanese, I doubt
:>they wouldn't have acted in the same ways... We are all East Asians, but
:>we are many kinds as well... maybe stereotyped as quiet and modest, but
:>we can be vicious when need be.
:>
So it goes to say, we like to introduce ourselves as orientals and excuse our
atrocities, because we're so culturally and racially vicious.
One atrocity does not excuse the other's atrocity. The Red Army's and the
Kuomintang's own atrocities does not excuse the atrocity the Japanese Army
committed in Nanjing. They are all atrocities that deserve equally vehement
condemnation.
:> If it weren't for the war (and the Japanese kicking my grandfather
:>out of Shanghai), he'd never be a successful businessman in Hong Kong and
:>I wouldn't be here right now... I'd just be a farmer on the outskirts of
:>Shanghai...
If you have seen Shanghai now, I doubt you would still be a farmer.
:>
:> Being upset is just national pride... a great barrier to being
:>open-minded... I have a friend here who feels "weird" taking Japanese
:>class... he said it feels like learning the enemy's language... please...
:>
:>
If your grandfather didn't leave Shanghai because of the Japanese, by all
means he could have left later because of the Communists.
As for your friend who feels like that, tell him he needs to get help.
Besides, in the last few decades, Japan is considered an "ally", not an enemy,
an ally necessary to check Soviet, North Korean and Red Chinese expansionism.
Japan is an ally of the US for a much much longer time than it is as an enemy.
And if you saw chummy Clinton /Hashimoto act (the sequel to the Ron/Yasu
act), you know they still *need* to counter the North Koreans and the mainland
Chinese.
Matsuura-kun
cro...@kuentos.guam.net (Christopher Robato) wrote:
>In message <4mr4ko$h...@cocoa.brown.edu> - Matsuura-kun <Y...@brown.edu>
>:>grandfather out of Shanghai), he'd never be a successful businessman
>:>in Hong Kong and I wouldn't be here right now... I'd just be a farmer
>:>on the outskirts of Shanghai...
>
>If you have seen Shanghai now, I doubt you would still be a farmer.
You're probably right... actually I was referring to a village
outside Shanghai, but who knows, I might have moved to the city with the
flow of urbanization.
>:> Being upset is just national pride... a great barrier to being
>:>open-minded... I have a friend here who feels "weird" taking Japanese
>:>class... he said it feels like learning the enemy's language...
>:>please...
>
>As for your friend who feels like that, tell him he needs to get help.
>Besides, in the last few decades, Japan is considered an "ally"
True... this friend of mine is not very open-minded... but although
Japan is an ally, there is still the minority problem here in America...
his is only an example of reverse-discrimination, I suppose.
I HAVE REMOVED rec.arts.anime FROM THIS POST, PLEASE DO SO WITH
OTHER SUCH POSTS...
Jim Gi Tsou
In article <4n114r$c...@cocoa.brown.edu>, Matsuura-kun <Y...@brown.edu> wrote:
>
> I am 100% Chinese NOT CHINESE AMERICAN and not a "samurai"...
Looks like we came from the same place and traveled the same path.
Shanghai -> Hong Kong -> US
> What arrogance in judgement you have. Such simplistic black and
>white thoughts. All you do is point the finger.
I didn't point any fingers, I just pointed out what the Japanese Forces
did.
>Did you ever consider
>that war goes beyond the aggressor? Through conflict ecalation, the
>supposed defender becomes an aggressor as well.
I guess you are right, maybe China and much of Asia was at fault when
they were invaded by Japan.
>Japan was wrong but SO
>WAS THE WORLD. I don't deny that I think Japan committed horrendous
>attrocities, but I can't believe all you do is point the finger at Japan
>and justify everyone's actions based on what the "original aggressor
>started".
Justify who's actions? I take it you mean the atomic bombs dropped on
Japan? When it was clear the war was hopeless for Japan, the govt chose
to save face rather than saving its own people. And what was the world
and the US supposed to do? Nothing?
> The fault lies not in actions but the basis for the actions taken.
>The world was just beginning globalization, led by early attempt of
>colonization. This triggered much mercantilistic and nationalistic
>activities. Protectionism and national security was the main concern and
>nobody thought much of cross-border interdependence. I am not trying to
>justify Japan's actions, but trying to open you up to consider the series
>of events in history that led one thing to another.
Sounds like you are trying to justify something, but I can't see what. :)
> It is sad that your post had only the purpose of pointing the
>finger. This "gimme a break" attitude and "it's obvious Japan's fault"
>simply disturbs me.
I am not justifying anything, what disturbs me is how Japan is complaining
about its people getting killed when Japan itself was one of the biggest
perpetrators of crimes against humanity of the 20th century. And to this
day, Japan still refuses to acknowledge its past wrongs.
>If Japan strikes at US then the US has the right to
>bombard all the other civilians? That revenge is justified? ALL BECAUSE
>IT WAS THE AGGRESSOR'S FAULT? Why don't you give ME a break.
Again, I justify nothing. I only state that Japan receive the same type
of treatment (better actually) they dished out. The suffering of the
Japanese people came at the hands of the Japanese govt.
> And so because you STARTED to reply to my statements in an
>unfriendly way that I should come and hammer you with a giant mallet and
>you should have nothing to whine about. FORTUNATELY, I DO NOT THINK LIKE
>YOU.
You have the anaolgy all wrong friend. The correct analogy would be you
hammer me with a giant mallet and when I reply with some unfriendly
statements, you complain that I am unfriendly and rude.
Pete Bowen
cro...@kuentos.guam.net (Christopher Robato) wrote:
>In message <3198c177...@news.brown.edu> - Dragon...@brown.edu
>(Dragonmaster Lou) writes:
>:>
>:>cro...@kuentos.guam.net (Christopher Robato) wrote:
>:>
>:>>A surprise attack is as universal and as old as warfare itself. It's not
>:>>"sneaky"---it's a tactical necessity.
>:>
>:>It is sneaky when you haven't formally declared war on the country
>:>you're attacking.
>:>
>In the US military terminology, it's called a Preemptive Strike.
There are several differences between an preemptive strike and the
initation of broad-scale war. Just one of them is the scale of the
operation. Another is the objective.
>They didn't officially declared war on Granada and Panama when it was invaded.
> Or announce to Khaddafy we're going to bomb his nuclear plants.
War doesn't have to be officially declared, and a surprise attack
itself doesn't have to be announced in particular. But the broad
initiation of hostilities must be. In Grenada the situation occurred
VERY quickly and normal internation warnings could not be given.
Indeed, it's in dispute as to whether there was a real government to
give them to. In Panama, there was clear warning about what the US
would do---there were firefights and Panamanian infiltrations onto US
territory preceding the invasion. The US never bombed Libyan nuclear
plants because Libya doesn't possess any. Perhaps you refer to
Operation El Dorado Canyon where US warplanes bombed Libyan military
installations IN RETALIATION FOR LIBYAN TERRORISM against the US
military. Again, nothing wrong here
>"Sneaky" is a cheap and childish word. Fortunately, it's hell of a lot
>cheaper than your soldiers's lives, and very very cheap to pay for the cost of
>victory. Besides the tensions in the Pacific are already so high, it's coming
>to this one way or another. (In the "undeclared war" before Pearl Harbor, the
>US is already supplying arms and material, even personnel in the form of
>"volunteers"---such as the famous Flying Tigers---to the Chinese to fight the
>war there.) An embargo is already at that point, is already like declaring an
>economic war.
The US gave very clear terms: if the Japanese continue to invade China
and occupy Vietnam, then the Americans would cut off resources. That's
fair. The Japanese conducted negotiations with the intent to use those
negotiations (if they failed) as a cover for the initiation of total
war with no warning---beginning with Pearl Harbor and continuing
quickly with Malaysia, the Phillipines and Wake Island.
>Admiral Yamamoto did no wrong, tactically and strategically, making his sneak
>attack. If I were him I would have followed it up by invading Hawaii.
If you were him the Japanese would have lost the war sooner. The
Japanese did not have the ability to invade, capture and hold the
Hawaiian islands.
Matsuura-kun
Peter Gruhn <gr...@nando.net> wrote:
>> The attack was cruel and sneaky. Most any attack made in the
>> mind to conquer is.
>
>territory? I have a hard time believing that one.
Rather simple-minded to have said that... it was a strategic move to
gain territory in the East by immobilizing the naval force at Pearl
Harbour... at that time, they thought it was a good move. Regardless of
whether it was or not, it still was influenced by the urge to conquer.
Unlike today, territorial expansion was very important. Nations
lacked resources. They needed territory for this purpose, and to gain
strategic positions as well. I am no war expert, but there is more than
attacking ONE place just to gain territory of the place they attacked.
--
Erik Shilling
In <4mvdoh$l...@alterdial.UU.NET> data...@jax-inter.net (Jay
Pennington) writes:
>
>"David Yoon (GD 1995)" <dhy...@minerva.cis.yale.edu> wrote:
>
>>On 8 May 1996, Matsuura-kun wrote:
>
>>> No morals are applicable during times of war.
>
>>Excuse me? As long as a government is in a state of war, it can do
>>whatever it pleases, free of recrimination? When did this become a
norm or
>>convention? Whatever happened to jus in bello? Proportionality and
>>discrimination in the use of force?
>
>>Should we forgive the Nazi's for the killings of civilians during
>>WWII? The Khmer Rouge for their auto-genocide after their civil war?
>
>>Give me a break. The killing of civilians in Nanking, the wanton
savagery
>>of the killings should be comdemned along with those in charge of the
>>political machinery that perpetuated the acts.
>
>War itself is immoral. (Killing people to get your way.) The rest is
>simply a matter of degrees.
>
>
>
>"I'm up to my knees in copyright infringments as it is."
>
>-Jay Pennington
>
I'm curious. What the hell does rape have to do with war/? Also what
has forcing over 200,000 women into prostitution for the pure pleasure
of serving the animals called Japanese soldiers got to do with war?
Erik Shilling
--
Erik Shilling Author; Destiny: A Flying Tiger's
Flight Leader Rendezvous With Fate.
3rd Squadron AVG
Flying Tigers
Peter
ALT.NEWS <yl...@csupomona.edu> wrote:
> .> : MYTH: Japan sweeps history under the carpet.
> .>
> .> How many Japanese schoolchildren are taught about the Japanese atomic
> .> bomb program? I'm not saying you're wrong, but inquiring minds want to
> .> know...
Part of the rationale for people here in Japan for not teaching such
topics to Japanese students is that they are young, innocent children.
For the past six months I've been working my way through a Japanese
Univ. of the Air history text, going from the Meiji Restoration to the
end of World War II. So far I am impressed with the text as portraying
Japan in the background of international events. I am three chapters
away from the World War II chapter and should have something interesting
to post then.
--
I have a list of Japan-related items (anime/manga, JPOP and, for
those over eighteen, some adult material) available through email,
or at http://www.zynet.com/~seishun/index.html. Email age
verification to sei...@mail.wind.co.jp for access to adult site.
Seth Friedman
On 12 May 1996 07:28:03 GMT, cro...@kuentos.guam.net (Christopher
Robato) wrote:
>There is no such thing as cruel, sneaky and not right in war. You are there
>to win it using any means possible, win the war in as short as time as
>possible to minimize your own casualties as much as possible. Do you expect
>Yamamoto to politely hand Roosevelt a greeting card, saying, "Dear President
>Roosevelt, I'm going to bomb Pearl Harbor on the 7th of December, and I
>suggest that you take tne necessary preparations at hand. Merry X'mas."
No of course not. But I and many others would have expected his
government to announce the ending of diplomatic relations which is an
obvious prelude to war. Remember, the Japanese were negitiating at the
time the attack occured, they did not break off negotiations or
announce that failing an agreement diplomatic relations would end.
>Yamamoto's mistake was that he didn't INVADE Hawaii that first day, and threw
>troops instead invading the Philippines and Guam. If he did, the Japanese
I think you should read a bit more, Yamamoto didn't have the authority
to order an invasion, nor if an invasion took place did the Japanese
navy have the most important requirement for extended fleet ops, a
fleet train. The Japanese navy was tied to its bases throughout the
war, something that the American navy had already moved away from.
>empire would have a strong positional advantage that the war would either have
>stalemated, or lasted longer than it should. As for the American politicians,
>they saw it coming (even a moron could see it coming), and an even bigger
>responsibility should fall on them for *not being prepared* in the first
>place. (The lack of preparation was so bad that Japanese war planes arriving
>at the Clark Air Base in the Philippines found all the US planes so neatly
>lined up in the open, despite radio and the Pearl Harbor attack having occured
>more than a day before.) A big blame should be laid on the American
>politicians and military planners---for ineptitude.
Wrong again. The Americans were prepared for acts of sabotage, acts
that made the grouping of planes a prudent precaution. For many
reasons, including those I mentioned previously, the Americans simply
couldn't imagine an attack on Pearl. Think about this, what if the
planes had been dispersed, in anticipation of air attack, and sabotage
had occured? General Short would have been hung out to dry, just like
he was for the opposite. The American command didn't have enough
resources to prepare for any eventuality, so they prepared for what
they thought was the most likely.
Seth Friedman
frie...@gol.com
Peter
David Christain Wuensche
I agree with you 100%. I've seen way too much generalization and blaming in
this thread. I don't know about you (not you Lawrence, I mean everyone else)
but I'll not blame a race for the actions of a single member or government. I
don't blame any of the Japanese people sitting here with me in Ryon lab for the
bombing of Pearl Harbor, I don't blame the entire U.S. for dropping the bomb,
and I never let anyone blame me for slavery in the South or the Civil War.
Be peaceful.
Cedrick Moore
Fucking oriental maggots!